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June 17 2008

Are Some Theater Owners Taking Advantage of CSTS Screenings? Are some theater owners taking advantage of the upcoming Can't Stop the Serenity charity screenings to make a little money for their own favorite charity (aka themselves)?

Sadly, it looks as if this may be the case. Check out this message from the SFBrowncoats Yahoo Group:

Serenity will be playing at the Clay Theater on Friday June 20th and Saturday June 21st at midnight. These two screenings have nothing to do with Cant Stop The Serenity or Equality Now.

Months ago, I called the Clay to ask why they chose the third weekend in June to show Serenity (which is the weekend we've done CSTS the past two years) and the manager said "We know a lot of people will come and we can make a lot of money". When I asked about possibly working with Equality Now, the manager just laughed. I just hope people don't go to this thinking they are supporting Equality Now. Like I've said before, having other screenings of Serenity is not a bad thing. I just don't appreciate theaters being sneaky about it. There are 11 other months they can show Serenity but all of a sudden there are 6 bay area screenings in the last two weeks of June? What's up with that?

I suppose it's to be expected. It's still aggravating though, since those theatres could be pitching in for a charity and still making money. And especially since fans are putting so much time, effort and I expect in some cases their own money (up front at least) to make the charity showings happen.

I guess the thing to do is spread the word: if it's not on the CSTS site, it's not for charity.
Poking around, I'm seeing the Clay showings (two, on the 20th and 21st) and the Parkway Speakeasy showing (one, on the 26th). Add the actual CSTS showing (one, on the 21st) and that's four showings. Anyone spot the other two in the Bay Area anywhere?

[ edited by theonetruebix on 2008-06-17 20:51 ]
Here's an idea - Perhaps fans in the area dressed in costume can picket the non-CSTS screenings outside the cinema with collection buckets and banners for the Equality Now! charity? I'm not sure on the legalities in the US, but surely this might be a way to go?
I suspect that would just lead to bad feelings all around, Zol. The strength of the CSTS showings is that this is a festive community event, and a protest at other venues seems against the spirit of the thing. Also some of us will be drinking beer during our viewings and should not be trusted with signage.
I'm not suggesting a protest, but a monitary collection outside the cinema in celebration of Serenity in aid of the Equality now! charity - I'm sure it could be done in a way that wouldn't upset the cinema management and at the same time promote both the Fandom & Charity.

Ozlady - I certainly hope you don't mean me by your comment below and rather the cinema management!

[ edited by Zol. on 2008-06-17 22:21 ]
What an asshole.
It is a bit tricky-tracky; this and financial honesty have about the same relationship as the completely accurate by law and the dictionary statements amde on comemrcials and the language real people use to tell each other things.
well that's rotten.
*grumble*
It's really irritating that they're using a fan event, and a charity one at that, to make a few bucks. I think it is dishonesty through omission if they don't do anything to dispel the notion that attending their screeings does something for Equality Now.

Are we within our rights to write a miffed letter with a polite, intelligent tone and long fancy words that express our frustration and the fact that they are big poopyheads? Cuz even if it didn't accomplish anything, it would at least be cathartic.
How did they get a print? I thought they were all committed that weekend. It's why the Chicago event was pushed back to July.
They booked the print through normal channels. CSTS has never had a lock on all available prints for that weekend or anything.
I'm not suggesting a protest, but a monitary collection outside the cinema in celebration of Serenity in aid of the Equality now! charity - I'm sure it could be done in a way that wouldn't upset the cinema management and at the same time promote both the Fandom & Charity.

I think any kind of activity outside the non-CSTS event would be a bad move. I think if it did attract attention, there's a high chance it would either feed into the overzealous Browncoats stereotype or just attract more viewers to the non-CSTS shows. If money is collected, you're basically making the non-CSTS show more CSTS-like. It would just add to the confusion and make the non-CSTS show seem more legitimate.

CSTS has guests, t-shirts, raffles, costumes, and the best Browncoats on the planet. The San Francisco group even has Sonny Rhodes performing! I think the best solution is to be more awesome, which CSTS already is by far, and make it more apparent which site is official and which are just riding coattails.

A few editorials written to the local paper might help for 2009.
It's very disgraceful that this has happened. We're trying to sort out a way to prevent this from happening again next year, because no doubt this greed will spread to other states and theatres if it hasn't already, and with prints so scarce, it could cause major problems. Most annoying thing is, they run the theatre... they can book their prints for next year right now. Most organisers wouldn't have venue locked for next year yet, in fact I doubt any have.
Wait a second. I get the conflicting interest thing, but shouldn't we be sort of glad that theaters are playing the Big Damn Movie?
I mean, seriously.
And Zol.
Picketing so that people do _not_ go see Serenity is certainly not the way to encourage theater managers to participate in the future. And I am especially put off by that suggestion directed towards the Parkway. Especially since the Parkway Theater was fantastic enough to host the Parkway Whedon series (The monthly showing of OMWF and alternating Buffy and Firefly episodes- culminating with a screening of Serenity)until the strike shut it all down.
Instead of protesting, maybe these are theaters that can be approached again for future events, since they "know" that Serenity is a draw.
I am really disappointed in the negative reaction. We want the movie out there right? We want Universal to know we still go see it, right?
my two cents.
mifeng, do you really not see this -- at least as far as the Clay is concerned -- as theaters trying to dupe the public? When it comes to that specific venue, at least, it seems pretty clear they know exactly what they're doing by doing this. I don't know enough about the perspectives of the Speakeasy or whatever the other venue(s) are to have much of a take on them, but in the case of the Clay it seems pretty blatant, and for them, at least, putting it off as "don't we WANT people to see the movie?" amounts to letting them get away with being schmucks.

[ edited by theonetruebix on 2008-06-18 00:37 ]
Gotta say I think it's cheesy of theatre owners to take advantage of CTST promotional efforts and not even offer a dime to Equality Now. While I can see how one might think it's good to see the BDM playing no matter what, the fact that it's obviously booked to ride the coattails of other people's efforts for charity is pretty tacky.

All they had to do was work with some Browncoats or Equality Now directly and make some kind of effort to not be completely opportunistic. Laughing as a response to a voiced concern about potential mix-up hardly inspires one to believe that the Clay is being anything but venal. Can't speak about the other theatres without more info, but the Clay pretty much bites it for not dealing.
Outside of having Serenity showing, has the Clay said in any way they are connected to CStS? Not that I can tell. So at this point I don't see them duping anyone. Good for Serenity to being shown.
doyn, perhaps "duping" is the wrong word. But they are taking advantage to be sure. To wit:

I called the Clay to ask why they chose the third weekend in June to show Serenity (which is the weekend we've done CSTS the past two years) and the manager said "We know a lot of people will come and we can make a lot of money".

That's a deliberate move to try to cash in on the charity weekend because they experienced a sold-out CSTS audience in 2006. Maybe it isn't "duping", but it's clearly designed to confuse the issue and take advantage of the dates.

[ edited by theonetruebix on 2008-06-18 01:10 ]
I kind of see mifeng's point as a silver lining to a cloud mostly tarnished by greed. But I agree with what b!x is saying about not just turning a blind eye.

I think what it should boil down to is us getting the word out to Browncoats this time, and if this happens next year, be prepared to stop it. Sunfire, I can't tell by your comment if the editorials are an idea or have already been written. Either way, it's a good first step.

I think that in order to not be scary rabid fan-types, we need to make it a "yay, us" instead of a "boo, them." If we have enough awesomeness on our side, combined with the fact that it's for a good cause, people will go to the CSTS screenings. Then, maybe the other theatres won't make any money, and won't try this again at the same time. I do think that picketing is neither pointy nor fruity. It gives the wrong impression about Browncoats and the BDM.
...Maybe the theatres can do a screening around the time of Joss's half-birthday.

Funny aside: there's actually a guy campaigning for public office in Arizona with the last name of Schmuck. It cracks me up every time I drive past a sign.

Edit: stupid typos.

[ edited by BandofBuggered on 2008-06-18 01:12 ]
do you really not see this -- at least as far as the Clay is concerned -- as theaters trying to dupe the public?


I see this as just business. They have every right to do this. It would be nice if they were collaborating with Can't Stop the Serenity or Equality Now, but if not, then that's their choice. There's nothing wrong with it. They're showing a movie and hoping that customers will come, just like they do every day. Certainly CSTS shouldn't have a monopoly on Serenity screenings; that wouldn't be fair.
Most likely the best means of protesting these actions by the Clay's management (and any other theater which engages in this sort of thing) is to no longer patronize them, and to let them know (in a courteous but firm letter) exactly why. It's a small gesture, but if a theater operator suddenly gets an influx of such letters, he's not only begin to fret about having lost those customers, but he'll also most likely start to worry about the story getting out in the press, which could damage his earnings potential even more. And with the economy the way it is, no theaters can afford to lose too many paying customers.
There's nothing wrong except that the opportunity wouldn't exist without CSTS. I'm not in favor of protests, but am in favor of boycotting the theaters who do this for the next, oh, forever.
The Clay's website says:

June 20 & 21 at the Clay: SERENITY
Saturday June 21st is Solstice Lounge night (21+ w/ID) with drinks sure to put down even a Reaver as the Clay celebrates closing night for this season of the Late Night Picture Show.


At first glance, it seems innocent enough. But I looked for a hidden code. Sure enough, after a short while I found this secret message:

ALL YOUR EQUALITY ARE BELONG TO ME

Very disturbing.
I see this as just business. They have every right to do this. It would be nice if they were collaborating with Can't Stop the Serenity or Equality Now, but if not, then that's their choice. There's nothing wrong with it. They're showing a movie and hoping that customers will come, just like they do every day. Certainly CSTS shouldn't have a monopoly on Serenity screenings; that wouldn't be fair.


Legally, they have every right, ethically they are on shaky ground. They chose a night that would get free publicity from a charity cause wthout giving any money to that charity. They are looking to benefit directly from the marketing of and goodwill towards the CSTS screenings to line their own pockets. They aren't just showing a movie and hoping that people will come. They are choosing to show this on a night that they know people will confuse it with a CSTS screening and show up. The distinction between actively trying to dupe people and passively not discouraging them from being duped is what we're left with. I dunno about you, but I hope never to be accused of either.

As for "don't we want Uni to know we are still seeing Serenity in theaters?", I honestly don't even think about it. I don't think that it makes much difference to them whether we do or not. The same theater full of people (more or less) who've seen it seventy times isn't going to make them suddenly jump up and yell "OOH, SEQUEL TIME!!!" and do a sexy dance. It just isn't likely.
Zeitgiest, given the level of credulilty that's apparently with us, maybe you should clarify "own favorite charity" in the subject line.

[ edited by dreamlogic on 2008-06-18 03:19 ]
Theater Owner: "Let's make sure to show Serenity when all those crazy Browncoats come to town on the third weekend of June. Oh, and next week is the Star Trek convention, so make sure Wrath of Khan is ready to go."

Business as usual for those local indy theaters? Quite a compliment, actually, that they want a piece of the big Serenity pie. Proves that Serenity Now is a smashing success. Congrats to all those involved, great job.
Well, almost; it would be like:

Theatre Owner: "Let's make sure to show Serenity when they are doing those charity screenings, it'll be like free publicity for our showings. We'll do it the same night as the charity ones. Lies of omission are awesome! Also, you know those Star Trek screenings to benefit that Alzheimer's disease research in honor of James Doohan? Lets show Trek movies, but not give any of that money to the charity. Make sure to schedule it the same night, though! If anyone calls to ask whether we are giving any money to the charities just make static noises and hang up or laugh."

There would probably also be twirling of a comical waxed mustache as well. It does say something about the success of the CSTS screenings, though :)

dreamlogic - edited to add (aka themselves) to the post description.
In 2006 we had a theater in Hartford do the same thing to us. They said they were not interested in CSTS but went ahead and booked it for themselves.

For Boston we made an arrangement with one of the local area non-profit independent theaters to take a small percentage but in turn they are handling ticket sales (including online sales), print booking and covering all operating expenses. They are making a small profit but, again, it's all good because it's for a cinema looking to survive in a sea of national chains.

In addition they have the one of the biggest seat capacities in the area. We had an better financial offer from another theater in the area but the seating capacity was no where near what we are getting here so the net for EN would not be as good.

I think this is a good way to go to approach a theater you are looking to use. If you offer a theater with a large capacity a percentage it's better than taking 100% minus costs if you use a smaller theater.

just sayin'.....
Is it feasible for someone to post signs near the Clay stating that their screening is NOT part of CSTS and direct them to the Art Institute?
How did the Hartford screening do in 2006? And how did it do last year?
I think zeitgeist nailed it. These theaters are taking advantage of the publicity generated by CSTS for Equality Now. They're using a charitable endeavor purely for profit, as is obvious by their choice of screening dates. Unsuspecting people who think that part of their ticket price is going to charity will be fooled. This practice doesn't help Browncoat community; it dilutes the strength of the community's biggest annual charitable endeavor.
Yeah, that's why I'm asking about these alleged previous scam screenings. Don't we want to know what happened there?
Hmmm, strange Star Trek: Wrath of Khan has no theater showtimes listed on imdb.com And for those imdb.com Serenity message board regular visitors... Titanic (1997) has no theater showtimes either.
Oh, Serenity pie!
That Boston deal-io with the Coolidge sounds great, The Hey. I loved The Coolidge - when it was an art movie house in the late seventies, it was a haven for those with little money and tastes outside the mainstream. I used to go and see the coolest double bills - a Bergman film paired with a Golden Age 40's Hollywood film, a spaghetti Western with The 400 Blows - but always with something thematic that connected the two. (Since this was just before the widespread use of VCRs, this was often the only way I could see these movies.) That they have survived and become a non-profit theatre makes me very happy. That they are the ones working with CSTS and showing Serenity this year makes me even happier.

A beautiful theatre, and part of the reason I love movies so much - a very fitting frame for this movie.

That the Clay and other theatres are legally able to do this marketing piggybacking crap - and, um, not terribly surprisingly, without announcing it on their websites - says nothing about the ethics of the situation.

Businesses are frequently able to get away legally with the greyest of behaviors, and often do (and I don't think anyone here is saying that they should somehow be legally prevented from doing so.) It is possible to run an ethical business - we like to think ours is - but the profits aren't as high, and the temptation to be a little slippy-slidey is ever-present for a lot of companies.

The laughing from the Clay manager is such a nice touch, though. Assaholic business folks aren't usually so agreeable as to provide one with the trappings of melodrama.
Hopefully, someday all theater owners will be Browncoat theater owners.
I think in the end, the best we can do is simple choose to go to the CStS and let the Clay dangle with what they can get. As much as I would love to think that CStS unites cities across the world, it really more to the point unites Browncoats in cities across the world. In time it might become something much bigger, but right now we just try out best to give back to Equality Now. So outside of Browncoats and the word of mouth we spread, how many choosing to head to the Clay to watch Serenity would actually be trying to attend a CStS event? I would put that percentage pretty small. So is it two different audiences?

Rather than asking the Clay to give its ticket sales to Equality Now, perhaps the better approach would ask to be able to solicit donations at its screenings in addition to their ticket sales, whether that be in person, or an annoucement, or a pickle bucket at the theatre. Turn a negative into a small positive if at all possible.

By the by, please do not take this as I agree with the situation. It is not something I would have done if I owned the Clay. And if I did do it, it would have some kind of give back with it. But practically, is the dandered ruffled when it doesn't need to be and instead we should just focus on a great CStS event?
I am not familiar with the phrase "is the dandered ruffled." Though perhaps I should be. I certainly don't understand the apparent sympathy with those who would rip off charity. It really pisses me off. But I think I'm capable of becoming calm enough to listen. Try me.
I'm a miffed. Me thinks we should show the those tail riders the power of the internet and fan grapevine. There’s still time to spread the word on exactly “where” the charity screenings will be held, and that people should know that anywhere else is not associated with the CSTS and just merely trying to take advantage of the Browncoats.
*sigh*

Definitely shady dealings going on. I think what bugs me the most is not only are they riding on the coattails of the publicity from CSTS and drawing people who think they are going to an official event, but the people who go to those showings could have gone to the official CSTS showings for about the same price and had the money go to Equality Now.

As others have said before, it's shiny that theaters are showing the BDM, but it should definitely be on a different night (not only to let CSTS have their chance to earn as much as they can for charity, but they'd be more likely to get a larger audience on a night when several other theaters in the area aren't also playing it for a smallish, albeit rabid, fanbase.) Preferably a different month even.
I worked a lot with the Landmark folks last summer, and they were very nice and supportive of the Whedon community, so this was a bit of bad news. I can't speak for them (though I should say that they have a corporate office and no "theatre manager" books the midnight shows, so his mean comments may be irrelevant and just an employee being resentful), but I did send an email to their booker forwarding this post. If he sends me a response, I will post it here.

QuoterGal: Thanks for the nice words about the Coolidge. That was the theatre I programmed from 2000-2006. I actually left the month before the first CStS show, but did arrange to make it happen. We also started the sing along there!
Well, this is a negative, but here is a positive: San Diego Citybeat has an article about movie listings, including CSTS on 6/22. Here's what they say:

Serenity: Pull out your browncoat. The San Diego Joss Whedon fan club/stalker group puts on a screening of Serenity, the feature-length edition of Whedon’s sharp, short-lived show Firefly. The event, dubbed “Can’t Stop the Serenity,” is a multi-purpose affair—on the one hand, it’s a benefit for Equality Now, so all proceeds go to Whedon’s favorite charity. On the other, the faithful celebrate the birthing day of their beloved leader. Scads of cool prizes will be given away and/or raffled off. Starts at 7 p.m. Sunday, June 22, at the UltraStar Hazard Center in Mission Valley. Tickets can be purchased in advance at www.socalbrowncoats.org.


I know, it's not SF, but at least (And I say this as a Californian at heart) there's hope for California yet.

zeitgeist, what would Universal's sexy dance look like? 'Cause I've gotta admit, I'm getting bad mental images! Unless, you know, they hired attractive actors to do it for them.
How about if someone calls a local journalist and asks if they want to do a story about it? Sometimes newspapers like to do exposes on businesses pulling a fast one on the public. See what the guy says if a reporter calls and asks about it. Might get some free publicity for the real event this way.
Single screen theaters, repertory theaters, and neighborhood theaters are struggling to survive in San Francisco. The Clay screens good movies at reasonable (by local standards) prices. The manager's laugh may have been a sardonic "We're doing whatever we have to, to keep the doors open, and you want us to do a charity event?"

It's shortsighted for them to do something that will alienate part of their customer base. Perhaps any letters to the management should take that approach.
I don't mean to be unsympathetic to the plight of the small,indy theater (and The Coolidge is responsible for being the sole saving grace of a few dates during my college years ;-), but the folks needing the largess of Equality Now are more needy than any business establishment, plain and simple. A split box office with some proceeds going to the theater and some to EQ would be a reasonable compromise. And to those of you touting this as just fair business , I'm sure there's some posting board where you can sing the praises ofcwar profiteering and the Nestle Corporation. :-P
BoB - Thanks for the San Diego link, we hadn't seen that one yet. Although they did get the website wrong, it's socalbrowncoats.com
Just business.

Also just business.

Hey, everyone leave business alone, it's just being business.

As excuses go, that's right up there with "Just following orders" as far as i'm concerned.

That said, though it's pretty cynical and clearly opportunistic it's not actually wrong (in the legal sense). Best bet is just to spread the word and not go. And if you feel strongly enough and are sure there's "malice aforethought" (a laugh can mean many things, especially over the phone) then don't ever go back to that cinema and urge others not to either.
There would probably also be twirling of a comical waxed mustache as well. It does say something about the success of the CSTS screenings, though :)

I was imagining him wearing a bowler and tie myself. But the mustache twirling is a nice touch.

ETA: No BandofBuggered, no editorials that I am aware of. Just an idea I was throwing out there.

[ edited by Sunfire on 2008-06-18 14:28 ]
Well that stinks.
And I agree that protests of any kind would be a bad idea, although I understand completely the impulse. I especially feel bad for any of the screenings that are taking place in the area. I'd love to write a letter to that theater, but really, would a letter from someone on the other side of the country really help? I don't think so. I think they'd chalk it up to "rabid fandom" and ignore it. Sometimes being a member of a supposedly rabid fandom sucks when there are times it would come in handy, but you can't use it. It's like being Superman but not being able to fly because it'll do more harm than good.

IMO, this year is pretty important. The first year was to see if it could be pulled off. (Resounding Yes.) The second was a chance to do the screenings after having learned how to do them. This year I figure is a test for sustainability. To see if the sreenings are something that can be done for (maybe/hopefully) years to come. So if they can survive a shortage of prints and an unscrupulous theater or two, I'd say they are still in very good shape. This year might have fewer cities, but more guests are agreeing to appear at screenings and it's beginning to feel more like an institution than an event. (If that makes any sense.) I just think it's important that everyone keeps things focused on Equality Now and has fun, and it'll all work out in the end.
But if anyone in the area of that theater wants to send a piece of their mind, I say go for it.
And asking a local journalist to look into it wasn't a bad idea either.

[ edited by NYPinTA on 2008-06-18 18:39 ]
Sadly, I don't think that there is anything effective to do, other than not patronize them in the future, quietly reminding them every time why you're not. A protest would just give them more publicity, and give the Browncoats a "whiner" image; that there's a legitimate grievance is almost always after the jump.
I moved to Marin County last year and scarcely ever cross the bridge for a movie. Were I still living in SF, I would certainly write the Clay a letter about their business practices.
Boohoo. I understand the reaction to them scheduling it on the CSTS weekend, but I wish Landmark had done it so I could have a chance to see it this year. I'm not going to make it to Toronto this month (which is a blast if anybody else is close enough to go) and who knows when or even if they'll have the Ann Arbor screenings this year. Gorramit, I want my Serenity! :(
Kinda sucky that it capitalizes on CSTS, but I'm not overly upset about it. There are only so many organizers to go around. Be honest with yourselves folks...are you going to put in the effort to do the planning? The screenings sell out pretty quick in my area, an extra movie house showing Serenity would be much appreciated. If someone wants to donate to Equality Now they can figure out a way.
And only so many prints...

I'm not sure that the bay area screening has sold out... otherwise there'd be less of an issue
thatweirdgirl, If my area needed an organizer, I'd volunteer to put together a charity event in a nanosecond; I'd even fund it out of pocket so more proceeds went to Equality Now. And I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in that eagerness to help. We're not all Gen-X slackers.
Ooh, burn! I'm suddenly very glad that I'm too young to be technically considered Gen-X. :)

I would try to help organize such a thing, but my ambitions are often thwarted by real life. I've been either sick or injured for the past 5 years, which doesn't lend itself to being helpful at putting together something like this. And I'd put up my own money if I had any.

But I'm with you, OzLady, that there are so many good fans everywhere that somebody would be able to put it together. I think that the limitations are other things, such as the availability of prints or lack of cooperation from theaters. Such as these schmucks. So the other showing isn't really good from our perspective; it oculd actually be harmful if CSTS doesn't sell out and people go to the Clay instead.
I think this, as reported, is pretty scuzzy behavior, but this:

[A]nd to those of you touting this as just fair business , I'm sure there's some posting board where you can sing the praises ofcwar profiteering and the Nestle Corporation


is divisive and a little ridiculous. It may be a radical concept, but folks have the right to hold different opinions here without being called out as blood-thirsty mercenaries and stealers of mothers' milk.
Nestle's stole mother's milk? o.O
Not literally, but I was alluding to this well-known controversy, as was, I presumed, the comment I was quoting from.
I remember the Nestle controversy. My mother was a neonatal nurse and she was furious about it. The link doesn't say so, but I remember that the formula was being marketed in areas where they did not have clean drinking water and the babies were dying of dysentery. Since they were also poor, they were stretching the formula by mixing it too thinly, so add malnutrition to the mix.

I understand the controversy here about the theatre and am miffed, but what Nestle did was pure evil. People died.
We're not all Gen-X slackers.

Hey, i'm sitting right here !

;-)
You are anything but a slacker, Saje - and I wasn't suggesting that thatweirdgirl is either. But I bristle at the suggestion that everyone is just whining without the willingness to put their money, literally and figuratively, where their mouth is. Considering how many folks on this board have laid out blood, sweat and tears for charitable events, that assertion is both unfair and provably untrue. And sorry, SoddingNancyTribe, but I stick by my assertion that endorsing others' actions as "just business" is very clearly the first step in the creation of situations like those to which both Saje and I alluded. I think it would speak ill of our community to not point that out.
"endorsing others' actions as "just business" is very clearly the first step in the creation of situations like those to which both Saje and I alluded."

The Slippery Slope is a fallacy.
Yes, Succatash. I'm sure all of my relatives who refused to leave Germany and Russia during World War II would no doubt agree with you. If they weren't, you know, gassed to death and such. *eye roll*
Oddly enough I'm not seeing the leap from a cinema owner trying to make a fast buck to the horrific events of World War 2. So it would be awfully nice if we could get back to the topic in hand.
Never mind. I cry "Uncle;" you win. :-(

[ edited by OzLady on 2008-06-19 19:02 ]

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