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June 18 2008

(SPOILER) Preview for today's release of Angel: After The Fall #9. The main story resumes after the First Night interlude. Come tell us what you thought of the issue.

Just noticed that Runge's art style reminds me of Greg Land, which is really cool.
Wow, the artwork looks awesome. I can't wait to get my hands on this issue!

And thanks again, Simon.
Yeah, I'd thought that too Numfar. Very nice. I'm way behind on actually reading these, so looks like I need to dive back in and get caught up.
So...I'm guessing Wesley's little trip to the fashion district is a reference to...Cordy?
I loved the "Do you know what happens when a champion gets struck by lightning?" line. Other than that, I was rather unimpressed by this issue, but at least it was better than the entire "First Night" arc. Nick Runge's art was alright.
Do we get an actual discussion thread?
Do we get an actual discussion thread?


Come tell us what you thought of the issue.

Not big enough of a clue?
I have my copy now actually and really enjoyed it including the art.

Brian, did say we would see Wes's dead body and so we did.All the Wes/Fred/Illyria scenes were great

And this issue had the best way to make nods to Cordy too. I've said before,I really don't want more dead characters being brought back and so IMO,this was a perfect way to give a major nod to her through Wesley in this way.

It's interesting that Connor is dating Gwen and I love all the scenes between Angel/Connor.This is probably one of my favorite moments in ATF so far.

Connor wanting Angel's advice about Gwen because Angel's been through that whole,"can't be with who you love" thing.I thought that was a nice nod to B/A.Atleast that's the way I took it.

And Connor saying that Spike gave weird uncle variety advice when he brought it up and he wants his father's advice was funny and moving at the same time.

The whole uncle Spike bit was just fun overall with Angel telling Connor that "Uncle Spike says lots of things."lol


Angel telling Connor to watch his mouth was also funny.

I also am glad we got some more info on Spider and what she is.I suspect we'll learn even more in Spike:ATF.

Angel The Vampire Slayer was cute.

I also love the gang returning to the hotel.

Gunn,man this stuff with him is like a powder keg waiting to blow.

[ edited by Buffyfantic on 2008-06-18 22:23 ]
Buffyfantic: After reading your comments, I'm even more eager to read the issue. It sounds like much fun!

(though I respectfully disagree about dead characters reappearing)
I'm less crazy about the art, I'm really looking forward to Franco Urru's return! But I loved the episode.... I loved how Gunn keeps taking out his own men (he is so conflicted, or maybe out and out insane, either way he is very interesting), and I loved Angel's big plan which worked out so well! Wesley's discussion with Illyria is fascinating, and full of possibilities: will Cordy find a way to help (I'm thinking yes), and will Illyria find a way to resurrect Wesley's body (again, I'm hoping, yes)? But most of all, how strong is Fred in there? It seems to me that she is changing Illyria both inside and out! I am loving this series so much.
You know what I really like about this issue is when Gunn saw Angel's plan really was, it looked like he was really proud of Angel.

I too loved all the Angel/Connor/Spike moments. It's quite adorable. More thoughts after I reread it again.
I haven't read the issue yet but the Angel/Connor/Spike situation is starting to remind me of the Buffy/Dawn/Willow dynamic. I like the synchronicity.
crazygolfa points out something we're really proud of. Isn't that a weird, nice little moment? Thank you so much.
Those moments are what keeps bringing me back. That, plus everything else. ;)
Buffyfantic: After reading your comments, I'm even more eager to read the issue. It sounds like much fun!

(though I respectfully disagree about dead characters reappearing)
menomegirl | June 18, 22:25 CET



It is a fun issue and gives lots of new info while also given us some nice moments.I think there is going to be a lot of different moments in this issue that people are going to love.

Yeah,I know not everybody agrees about bringing dead characters back.I just feel that so many have been brought back already in the verse in one way or another and some like Anya,Tara,Cordy,Doyle etc should be allowed to remain passed on especially when they were given such great send offs.Plus death starts to lose meaning when more and more characters keep returning. IMO

What was done in this issue with Cordy was handled with a subtle touch while having good impact.It was a nice tribute to her character and was handled just right I thought.

[ edited by Buffyfantic on 2008-06-19 00:20 ]
This was a really fantastic issue! Actually, probably my favorite in the series so far. The Cordelia reference was quite elegant. The end really brought back some memories of Season 5...

Spectacularly done, can't wait for the next issue. Rockin' cover as well!!!
I love the idea of Illyria being affected by Fred and maybe realizing a little humanity in itself that it either ignored or never had before. I'd be a little sad to see Illyria go if Fred is fully returned, but on the other hand I also miss Fred, so I can't wait to see what'll happen.
This is probably my favorite issue so far. I love hopeful and romantic Angel, all inspired by teamwork and stuff. I like Spike when he provides the much needed sarcasm.

The fact that Angel had a plan this whole time and made the big rescue little more than a sentimental moment is something I actually liked. It gave him a lot of validation from his allies, a great moment with his son, and a return to heroic status in general.

Connor/Gwen confirmation! Brian Lynch... thank you. I love having been all over that vibe despite you always ignoring my questions about it! And I also like the parallel it creates for father-son bonding because of Angel's curse and Gwen's power. Gwonner rules! Someone make me a banner!

That the loan shark survived is no great surprise, because he's funny. A little disappointed that he has a name, though -- I kinda liked that he might have that whole "tucker's brother" thing that trailed Andrew throughout Season 6 of "Buffy".

I'm very grateful that we actually get a lot of little expository tidbits that had been sort of chinese water torture before -- like some idea who or what Spider is. She is Maria. Spike just met a girl named Maria. Now everywhere he goes... *ahem*. No, it was nice to learn that she's just a uniquely "gifted" person who glommed onto Spike at some point, and not in fact an evil-super-captor (apparently) or force of hand-wringing evil.

I can't say enough positive stuff about the return to the Hyperion. It's symbolically perfect. It's Bruce Wayne announcing he's going to rebuild Wayne Manor brick by brick in "Batman Begins". It's Angel saying "let's go to work" in "Not Fade Away". Having been broken down completely, he can now be rebuilts, and that's the right place, as always, to do it. Nice touch to remember that Spike had never been there, either, and thus had no idea why they were there.

Fredlyria's story is pretty much what most of us thought, but, again, nice to get some expository funk rubbed on it. And having her still so desperately attached to Wesley (in either form) is poignant... although does make a certain cover even more eyebrow-raising.

Another fantastic touch -- Cordy still having her say, as much as she can anyway. Very nice to think of her as being (legitimately) doing the job she was "hired" for in Season 3, and in such a subtle gesture basically letting Wes know all manner of things will be well.

Gunn's plot thickens, and he delightfully reduces himself by one more annoying minion. He reminds me of one of my favorite "Veronica Mars" lines -- "I'm feeling the calculating stare, but where's the villainous hand-wringing and maniacal laugh?" In other words, he is deeply cool precisely because everything seems to be going his way even when it shouldn't be. Makes him inherently badass in the same way that Twilight is.

Couple questions/points of interest -- "Angel the Vampire Slayer! Angel the Vampire Slayer!" Right now, I'm clinging to the idea that that's a tiny bit of fanservice to the folks who expect non-vamp Angel to still be a superbeing of some kind, and not actual foreshadowing. Because, frankly, there *are* a lot of people who would/will jump on that and say "but of course! He'll turn into a guy-Slayer!" -- completely overlooking that the notion of a male Slayer is thunderously concept breaking to the entire Buffyverse mythology.

The question I'd have for Brian would be his use of the word "champions" so diligently to describe the fighters for the demon lords. It was pretty deliberate and repetitive, and left me wondering -- is it an intentional inversion/deconstruction of the Buffyverse's established use of the term to mean Force For Good, Protector Of The Helpless? We got a little of that in Season 5 when Angel admitted to being "tired of that word", and it occurred to me to be so precise with using it in this context, that it was an intentional effort to trivialize that concept in "After the Fall".
I really liked this issue. Loved the reference to Cordy it was so subtle and very well done. Glad to see her honored in season 6.

And Gunn - what can I say? His story is so great. I caught that look when he realized Angel's plan - he was proud of him. Also, the look on his face when he saw the 'fang gang' reunited was very poignant - I think he still wants to be included and realizes that he never will be again. Sad. I'm still not sure if Gunn wants Angel dead or not. Or just wants to be sure he's the one to kill him. Also, even though Gunn is a vamp now - he's still killing them. So that hasn't changed. I'm psyched to see what kind of vamp he is ... he's definitely not an ordinary one.

Spike was great this issue as well. Loved his protectiveness towards Illyria/Fred. I think she's needed him to help balance what's happenning to her. I was glad to see the 'girls' show up in support and Spikes explanation 'I'm Spike. Have you met me?' made me laugh out loud. :). And Spike looking for a fast car when Angel challenged the Lords. Perfect characterization.

Loved the whole Angel/Connor interaction. Angel is such a Dad - 'Watch your mouth' :). And stopping in the middle of a fight to reassure Connor that they would talk about the girl stuff later. And loved Connor's protectiveness towards Angel. How upset he got when he thought Angel was essentially commiting suicide when he challenged the Lords.

It was great to see the Hyperion again. Felt like we were coming home as well.

One nitpick ... as I said elsewhere I thought the art was inconsistant, but having seen the cover for #12, and having Brian's reassurance about the quality of the next issues, I won't let it bother me.

Oh and Brian, (if you see this), thanks for the invite to converse via e-mail. I didn't see it 'til now and I guess it's moot. But a nice offer none the less.


Couple questions/points of interest -- "Angel the Vampire Slayer! Angel the Vampire Slayer!" Right now, I'm clinging to the idea that that's a tiny bit of fanservice to the folks who expect non-vamp Angel to still be a superbeing of some kind, and not actual foreshadowing. Because, frankly, there *are* a lot of people who would/will jump on that and say "but of course! He'll turn into a guy-Slayer!" -- completely overlooking that the notion of a male Slayer is thunderously concept breaking to the entire Buffyverse mythology.


KOC - I am one of those people that don't want Angel to remain human and I take your point above, but we already have the equivlant of a male slayer in Connor. So while I don't know how Angel is going to end up, we do have a precedent for a male superbeing (Faith's word).

Wow - this got long. If you made it this far thanks for reading :).
I, for one, emphatically do hope that Angel remains human, and think that there are more interesting stories to tell with him as a man than as a vampire at this point.

But for Connor's part... I've never thought him as a male Slayer, not literally or conceptually. He is a unique case, but he's no Slayer. He's not as strong, for one thing. He's a little faster and has more finely honed senses (rather akin to a vampire). And conceptually, there's never been any mistaking what the Slayer represents, and it's been consistent -- part of the reason why I suspect Faith was written as being more or less able to manhandle Connor. So to actually give that label to a male character would really upend that meaning behind the Slayer mythology.
Well, I guess I should have just stuck to calling Connor a superbeing, 'cause you're right he's not a male slayer. But he's not entirely human either. He does resemble a vampire more than he does a slayer.

As for Angel's state after AFT - I'm not sure what I want for him except I don't want him dead (really dead) or human.
Also, I can't help but wonder if the people in this issue calling Angel "The Vampire Slayer" (I know they think he's a vampire that slays) is some kind of foreshadowing???
For his part, at least as his character was written in 110 televised episodes, Angel would prefer human, or dead as human, to alive as a vampire. I tend to support him in that. I want him to stay human. If he does turn back into a vampire, I don't want him to suddenly have a curse-free soul, either.
For his part, at least as his character was written in 110 televised episodes, Angel would prefer human, or dead as human, to alive as a vampire.


True, but as Joss has said repeatedly you don't give people what they want, you give them what they need ;). As an aside, DB has said jokingly that he'd like to see Angel become human and then get run over by a bus. Actually, that's kind of what happened huh. Angel became human and jumped off of a building ... not quite a bus but almost the same result.
Angel became human and went splat like a pancake.I thought of DB when we saw that too.lol

[ edited by Buffyfantic on 2008-06-19 17:21 ]
Again, won't be able to discuss the issue, as I don't have it yet. TFAW, just notified me, that both #8 and #9, will be together in my next shipment that will be shipped early next week.
But I do question this calling Connor a slayer issue being discussed. I don't it was ever considered in the show. There is whole amount of mythology into the history and slayer system. There's even the fact about how unique Harth is, as Melaka's twin brother, for getting her prophetic dreams, which is an element deeply involved onto the history of the Slayers.
I really don't want to come across as negative overall, but I did find some of the dialogue early on a bit jumpy and therefore a tiny bit confusing. I only mention this because as a regular reader of comics this is usually not a problem for me. Not a constructive comment I know but I have to be honest.

I enjoyed the plot and thought Nick Runge's art was great in places, less great in others. I liked his turn in 'First Night' better which was another (slight!) disappointment. The cover though is Grade A mindblowing.

Well enough grumbling - I'm liking the overall story, and there were plenty of funnies in this issue.

My favourite quote: 'Only the most aesthetically pleasing leaves took to the air.'
fangless sez:

I really don't want to come across as negative overall, but I did find some of the dialogue early on a bit jumpy and therefore a tiny bit confusing. I only mention this because as a regular reader of comics this is usually not a problem for me. Not a constructive comment I know but I have to be honest.


And this is one of the many reasons why, for the most part, writers shouldn't take part in fan fora. I agree with your criticisms and disagree that they're not constructive (it's up to the writer to make a diagnosis from your presentation of symptoms - in other words, to apply craft to solve problems of reading). Indeed I thought this issue was anticlimactic, emotionally on-the-nose, incoherent in places (though the big fight's weird feeling of triviality might be a function of bobbled staging - it's alternately overstuffed and sparse), and unpardonably sloppy in several ways (including my hobbyhorse, the copyediting, worse this month than I've ever seen it in a comic that wasn't self-published). Weird saying that, knowing Brian reads Whedonesque.

Worse not to say it though.
Sigh, I really didn't want to like these issues, but I do, and I don't deal well with disappointment, I get very furious. Sigh.
From a copyediting standpoint, this is the first time it's occurred to me that lettering must actually be typed and then modified to the book, because of the "We"re" on page 11 -- that can only occur as a typing error, not a writing one. But, honestly, if I wasn't actually re-typing every line of dialogue, I wouldn't notice most of these. It's not my particular hobbyhorse, as you say.

I'm glad Brian takes part in the community, he has no ego in the sense that he doesn't seem to take negative feedback personally, and he is clearly a *fan* himself the way you can tell some stuff geeks him, like Illyria vs. the Dragon did.
Cute the reference to the "fashion district" being a clue to the character referred to being Cordelia, without mentioning her name. Kind of like the various visual clues we had telling us that the Fred stand-in in Wesley's story was Eve, since we couldn't hear her voice or get any other sensory cues that that's who she really was.

Which brings me to a theory I want to float, and see if anyone wants to send a torpedo through it. Warning - speculation ahead. The last time we saw Eve she was cowering in terror from the Senior Partners. Well, actually the last time we saw her she was telling Angel, as the Wolfram and Hart building was collapsing around them, that she had no place to go. But the time before that, she was cowering in terror from the Senior Partners because she had betrayed them and, we know, they aren't the most forgiving of entities (remember when Robert Price let the Senior Partners down and they made him eat his liver?). So it just strikes me as a little, oh uncharacteristically merciful of them to be giving Eve a second chance. Which got me to wondering, what if she's not working for the Senior Partners? Could she possibly be working for some other set of powerful, unseen entities that also have an interest in play, who have a plan to alleviate the whole "being in hell" issue, and that the role that Wesley doesn't suspect he has to play depends on him believing that it's W&H pulling the strings?

Just a thought.
Apparently Brian said that's not Eve, though. *Shrug* Sometimes a fig leaf is just a fig leaf, apparently. My next best guess is the conduit, which we last saw as a creepy panther and as a sneak preview of badass Gunn that's now a vampire.
I've finally read # 9.

I found the writing excellent in this issue, from the comedy to the poinant way they included Cordelia. I'm liking this comic WAY better than S8, I must say. I like the way AFT's story is unfolding and that although there are still mysteries yet to be told, they aren't dragging us along endlessly.

*Loved* that expression on Gunn's face when he realized what Angel's plan was and that the thing with Illyria/Fred was about what I figured. I adored the Connor/Angel and the Angel/Spike interactions. (loved the "Uncle Spike" thing too). And it was great to see them going to the Hyperion.

The only things about the comic I didn't care for was that the art was kind of 50/50 for me, although I like Runge's work much better than Urru's. And that-once again-Angel's supposidly this big hero and I'm left saying "Yeah. Right. WTF-ever."

barboo-Didn't Brian say that it wasn't Eve? I seem to recall that from somewhere. In any case, before NFA, the last time we saw Eve was when Angel, Gunn and Spike rescued Lindsey in the episode "Underneath" and she signed away her immortality. In NFA, she told Lindsey she didn't trust Angel or Lorne and frankly, she did not look as if she had a plan of any sort in sight or Lindsey would not be dead.

Re:Angel's humanity. I'm one of the fans who's hoping he does not remain human when AFT is done. He hasn't earned that for himself yet.
Didn't Brian say that it wasn't Eve?

If he did it wasn't in anything I saw.
Re:Angel's humanity. I'm one of the fans who's hoping he does not remain human when AFT is done. He hasn't earned that for himself yet.


Whoa. Tough crowd. Why can't Angel just take a vacation?
Re:Angel's humanity. I'm one of the fans who's hoping he does not remain human when AFT is done. He hasn't earned that for himself yet


I don't want Angel to remain human, but not because he hasn't 'earned' it yet. For me his identity is so wrapped up in the vampirism that it just wouldn't be Angel if he were some regular joe former vampire with a soul.
"Burge is My Master Now"....I must admit, I laughed out loud at that panel (OK, I may have snorted too, leading to very odd looks in my direction from the others in the room).
Wow, this is off the front page already.

Gotta say, as much as I despised #8, this one was a substantially better story. I was SO glad to see Cordelia NOT coming back from the dead!
jclemens; yeah, well, assuming you believe that story she handed to Angel.....
Wow, this is off the front page already.


I've linked to it on the sidebar so people can now get to it from the front page.
jclemens; yeah, well, assuming you believe that story she handed to Angel.....


I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume that you have a fic concerning this, DCA ;).
For me his identity is so wrapped up in the vampirism that it just wouldn't be Angel if he were some regular joe former vampire with a soul.


I can agree with that (even if I still think he hasn't earned that humanity.)

Whoa. Tough crowd. Why can't Angel just take a vacation?


He had one once. He gave it back. *g*
He hasn't earned the humanity? Wha? Angel deserves the humanity more than most humans!

Anyway, really good issue, even though certain parts were slightly uneven. I say "slightly," though, because it's not a huge deal, and for the most part the issue was on the nose. Not as great as issue #5, but certainly more satisfying than any of the "First Night" issues.

I too absolutely adored the nod to Cordelia, as well as basically anything to do with Wesley or Illyria.

Something I did not adore? The "Burge Is My Master Now" thing, which unlike the "Angel the Vampire Slayer!" chant felt too much like fanservice.

Still, kick-ass ish, as always I can't wait for next month's.
I'm glad Brian takes part in the community, he has no ego in the sense that he doesn't seem to take negative feedback personally, and he is clearly a *fan* himself the way you can tell some stuff geeks him, like Illyria vs. the Dragon did.


Because I"m not a very active participant here the involvement of various Jossverse writers isn't of great importance to me; it's nice to get insights into their storytelling but that rarely comes. Joss's comments are rarely of the 'here's how/why we did it that way' variety, near as I can tell, and look at Brian's comment in this thread, which reads an awful lot like 'Thanks for validating my opinion of my own work,' which is a sweet enough thing to be a part of but - I hope you'll admit - isn't exactly an invitation to criticism.

My guess is that a lot of Whedonesque participants are also fans of noxious crap like Lost and Stargate: Atlantis and so forth, and are used to engaging with writing other than Joss's house style (or work of similar quality). One of the reasons I'm so disappointed in Angel: AtF is that the worst shows I watch, from a quality-control standpoint, are Lost (drunk, out of obligation) and Galactica (which is all over the map in terms of quality and believability). The last comic I read before picking up Angel #9 was Alan Moore's Black Dossier, which is so good that comics criticism hardly has a language to talk about it (way, way, way more interesting than Promethea and a long way from the two original League volumes).

In other words, I don't read/view genre stories widely enough to be tolerant.

So it's disconcerting to me to read a book that contains any readily apparent errors or shortcomings of craft (like the unmissable textual errors ['noncorporeal,' a word used a whole bunch of times in this series, surely lights up the spell checker as 'noncorporal'], or the startling mismatch of torso and legs on Wesley's body's first appearance, or a giant Royal Rumble in the middle of a crowded square in which almost no actual fighting takes place and Fred, the emotional center of the issue in theory, somehow disappears for fourteen pages even though she's standing right there - what the hell?]; it's much weirder and worse to read bleats of unbridled joy every time a new issue comes out.

That said, I think if the overall opinion of the book were initially more negative, my initial reaction might be to defend it. But since the uncritical reception of AtF gives permission to those with my...tendencies...to let loose with their disappointments, I've come out decidedly in the negative for this book, and the book has continued to fulfill my expectations. Not that 'uncritical' reading is a new thing in fan communities, even this well-regarded one; still bugs me.

Almost as much as 'squick' and 'squee' but let's just not. :)
Though I enjoyed WHAT happened in this issue, I don't really like how it was presented.

I've got to agree with those who say the layout/lettering/copyediting was pretty sloppy. Ultimately, I just left the issue feeling very confused. The action just didn't seem to make much sense to me. It's like there's a cool story and some pretty good dialogue there, but the presentation just hurts it.

Things I enjoyed this time:
- Spike. Brian, obviously, as Spike's voice completely nailed.
- Connor. I think I've enjoyed Connor in this series more than I have since he was too young to whine.
- Fred/Wes/Illyria. The scene with them together was nifty, albeit not a Joss scene. But quite good.
- Still really enjoying Gunn, depending on where that's headed. The whole "turning" story in Issue #8 kinda left me cold, but Gunn's plan (what ever it may be) is a nice subplot.
- Back to the hotel. Very nice.

Things I don't get:
- Why is Cordy, assuming the reference Wes made was about Cordy, "the greatest source of good they can possibly know?" (That quote may not be 100% accurate). It seems like this is a huge stretch, especially since I was under the impression our little Cordy died in a coma, never ascending to a realm of higher power.
- What was the deal with the stick thing? How did the Lords get blown up? Why did Gunn want it? I'm confused. May have just been the panels, though.
- Angel's thought bubbles...I don't know. I didn't feel like they were coming from Angel. His voice seemed off. That being said, his actual words and interactions were swell.

Looking forward to next issue, and hoping that we can get out of hell at some point soon. Or at least we can find out the big reasons and meanings behind this hell and everything that has happened. I feel like I'm watching Lost right now.

Oh yeah, and Lorne was awesome. Need more Lorne.
bknick, Very good question. I'm assuming it was the Powers That Be, more than Cordelia herself that he was trying to reach (even though that's not how it's written as?). Or maybe Wesley was just desperate at that point in time....cause I can't imagine anyone thinking that Cordelia was actually "the greatest source of good they can possibly know."
Yes, menomegirl, I would have to check the wording but I thought Wesley was trying to reach TPTB (greatest source of good) via their last conduit (which was Cordelia who had Doyle's visions). I still expect them to get a better response than falling leaves. However I don't expect us to get out of Hell any time soon, everyone still has their own issues to face, and over-come, first!
Loved the issue. Now that I got that oh-so-original opening to my post out of the way, I can explain why.

The scene with Wes/Fred/Illyria at the end is one of my favorite scenes so far in the series. It definitely helped to quell some of my fears about the Spike cover, plus it was just a great moment. Like it's already been pointed out twenty times above, it gave Illyria some much-needed humanity. I'm far from being one of Illyria's biggest fans. For starters, there's the whole taking over Fred's body thing, but, aside from that, she felt hollow to me like a Vulcan from Star Trek... but, y'know, an angry Vulcan that rips out people's spines. Spock's been known to rip out a spine now and again, no? Pon Farr can make a Vulcan do crazy things. Okay, maybe not. Anyways, the moment between Illyria and Wesley in "Not Fade Away" when Wesley was dying... it was a great moment. And that's why I loved the moment at the end of this issue. Vulnerable Illyria gets a thumbs up from me; Street Fighter Illyria, not so much.

The Cordelia reference was really awesome as well. It was the perfect way to convey that she hasn't been forgotten, but without spoiling her departure by resurrecting her. ATF (and this issue in particular) also redeemed the character of Connor to me, so congrats Mr. Lynch, you were able to make me like Connor, which, I imagine, is the equivalent of winning the World Series.

My favorite issue so far? It very well could be. Let's just say that I can't wait for the next issue.

[ edited by Supersymmetrical on 2008-06-21 23:37 ]

[ edited by Supersymmetrical on 2008-06-21 23:39 ]
That said, I think if the overall opinion of the book were initially more negative, my initial reaction might be to defend it. But since the uncritical reception of AtF gives permission to those with my...tendencies...to let loose with their disappointments, I've come out decidedly in the negative for this book, and the book has continued to fulfill my expectations. Not that 'uncritical' reading is a new thing in fan communities, even this well-regarded one; still bugs me.


I'm not disagreeing with you on any of the points you made and I can understand them. It's just this part here that bothers me. It's not so much that you're bashing the Angel comic, I don't really even care. I just think your reasoning is tainted.

I'm going to assume that you were more of a Buffy guy when Buffy and Angel were on TV. Gonna also assume that preference carries over to the comic as well. But, it's kind of odd, given that you've pretty much admitted to being a Whedon fanboy. I get the feeling if Whedon (or, if you perceived it to be that way) were more directly involved in After the Fall, you'd be more willing to forgive some of the mediocrity as you are with the Buffy comic.

After the Fall is clearly flawed. Having Angel be revived in comic book form at IDW would be like if Season 6 had aired on ABC Family. My expectations weren't super high (Minear, Bell, Fury, DeKnight and the core of writers that made Angel what it was, superior to Buffy at its best, are in no way involved) and while it hasn't blown me away, it's not disappointing me, either. I've had about the same reaction to Buffy, though, I expect my opinion to improve as the season goes forward. Of course, with Jeph Loeb, Brad Melzter and Petrie, who are the three of most mediocre writers to ever set pen to canonical paper in the Buffy universe writing six issues between... That might not end up being true.

Naw, probably not. Loeb is only writing one issue, he's the worst of the three. I just hope he doesn't do any lasting damage.

As for your thoughts about creative folks interacting with the fanbase... David Simon has been consistently interacting with fans of The Wire and, well, that show exposes Buffy and Angel for the good (not great) shows that they are.

[ edited by The Sandy Llama on 2008-06-22 13:38 ]
I loved the issue. That is all:)

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