"I like Spike. I wanted him to play Shinzon in Nemesis!"

Who don't?
These should be amazing.
Right now I can't stop to imagin a new Star Trek movie only with Whedon cast...

Brasilian Chaos Man | June 24, 17:31 CET

Oh lord, If only he had, he would have been wonderful!

sueworld2003 | June 24, 19:03 CET

Not being that much of a Trek fan, I don't even know who Shinzon is, but I still think JM should play the role. :-)

Shey | June 24, 19:06 CET

Well, I'm currently watching the TNG movies, so I'll have to try imaginging Marsters in that role. Currently I'm watching Insurrection - Data just felt Riker's face to see if it was "smoother than an android's bottom."

Brasilian Chaos Man Hmm. That could be interesting. Let's see....Anthony Head as the Captain, with David Boreanaz as his First Officer. Alexis Denisof as the ship's Doctor, and Amber Benson as the Chief Nurse. Chief of Engineering would be...Nathan Fillion. (Heee!) Helmsman could be Alyson Hannigan.

ShadowQuest | June 24, 19:09 CET

I can see James bringing a lot to that character and I can even see a passing resemblance to Patrick Stewart in terms of facial structure. But I'm having a really hard time imagining him with a shaved head.

Roland the Headless Thompson Gunner | June 24, 19:13 CET

Shey, Shinzon was the bad (bad in both ways :) clone from captain Picard in Star Trek - Nemesis".

ShadowQuest, could you see Eliza D doing an alien (just to fight with a vulcan, and Tom Lenk as a red T-Shirt (I love to see Andrew dying :) ?

Brasilian Chaos Man | June 24, 19:22 CET

I was just watching Nemesis and wondering if this was the one where James was supposed to be in. I remembered correctly then. Hmm. A bald Marsters...

Valerie | June 24, 19:30 CET

Ugh, I lost how many times I whined about this while we watched that movie (and it wasn't all that great too... the actor who played Shinzon annoyed me to death even before I knew James was supposed to play him). If I'm not mistaken Marina Sirtis (Deanna Troi) said she wanted James Marsters to play the role too. It was Patrick Stewart who didn't want to cast James. Poo-poo, Capt. Picard, you could've had such a wonderful actor to play your clone/younger self.

Mirage | June 24, 20:51 CET

If anyone could have saved that piece of garbage, it would probably have been James. But then again, I'm not sure anyone could have. It was boring, the humor was too forced to be funny, and it didn't feel like Star Trek so much as the latest action extravaganza brought to you by the good folks at Generico Amalgamated. It is, at present, one of only two Star Trek movies I don't own (the other one being the even more wretched Final Frontier, AKA William Shatner's demented brainchild), and believe me, Trekkie though I am, I'm in no rush to fill that hole in my collection. There are still much better movies I don't own. Like Mr. Smith Goes to Washington. And Chopper Chicks in Zombietown.

BAFfler | June 24, 21:17 CET

My father looked a lot like Patrick Stewart (so much, that he used to dress like Picard at conventions and get a great deal of attention). As much as I'd want James getting work, I really didn't want to see my dad every time I looked at him. That's way too twisted.

redeem147 | June 24, 21:28 CET

I grew up on Star Trek: TNG. And I love the movies. But Nemesis offered no ray of sunshine. Picard's clone was TERRIBLE; I hated that character. He didn't feel like a Picard clone to me. And, everyone's right, James would have been a MUCH better/perfect replacement. I'm sorry. I just now found out about this.

What killed me most though was that they ended the franchise of TNG on this movie. Yeah, sure, it had potential, but then it t.a.n.k.e.d.. During those 20 some minutes when Picard & Data are talking about their clones, and Data's giving his spiel about how that clone will never be him, I kept pleading that it wouldn't be. But it was. Data did a "Superman" out of the cargo bay and that was the end of my childhood friendship. :(

They should have ended the franchise with a spectacular movie. Not this one.

Now I'm sad.

korkster | June 24, 21:33 CET

I must be the only person on the planet who thought Nemesis was one of the best Trek films!

I talked to LeVar Burton a couple years ago, he said they wanted to do another, but because of the financial failure of Nemesis he felt it would never happen.

I wonder whose genius idea it was to release Nemesis into theaters around the same time as Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers? No wonder it failed!

[ edited by Out of Objects on 2008-06-24 18:48 ]

Out of Objects | June 24, 21:46 CET

I liked Final Frontier. It was more like a party movie. Made to the fans who ever wanted see the 2 captains together, without think in a great story (what wasn't always the strong points of TOS :)

Brasilian Chaos Man | June 24, 22:44 CET

I agree, Out of Objects. Placing it with Two Towers was a death sentence. Overall, I enjoyed the movie. I love my TNG, how can I not love what they do? I didn't like the alto-ego of Picard, though. I'm glad he died.

But Data? Yes, it was tragic and poetic, but I didn't want him to die! Especially after they made it CLEAR that there wouldn't be another Data. :(

I love the "Superman" out of the cargo bay, but I still didn't want him to die. It's kind of like Tara, or Anya, or Cordelia, or Fred, or uh, crap, what's his name? Irish drunk off of Angel Season 1 (don't kill me, I forgot). Or Wesley. I miss my characters when they die. Great, now I'm tearing up at work.

Overall, Nemesis had some nice character depth that we didn't get from other movies. However, First Contact did, and with the same characters. But in different routes. I think the movies are better than the TV show because they give you more. Now, I only own Seasons 1-3 ($100 a pop!) so I don't know for sure how the Borg affects that scenario, just that it does. Ah, childhood characters should never die.

Anyone interested in the new Star Trek movie coming out? Trailer looks good. Okay, amazing!

I'll be there.

korkster | June 24, 23:20 CET

Irish drunk off of Angel Season 1 (don't kill me, I forgot).

There are more and less respectful ways of forgetting a dead man's name, guess which one you picked ?

'Nemesis' was a load of old cobblers IMO. They made a film that tried to appeal to everyone and ended up appealing to no-one. Whatever 'Nemesis' was, it wasn't Star Trek.

I liked Final Frontier. It was more like a party movie. Made to the fans who ever wanted see the 2 captains together, without think in a great story

I think you may be getting mixed up with 'Generations' Brasilian Chaos Man which featured Captains Picard and Kirk teaming up. 'Final Frontier' was the self-indulgent mess of a film where Kirk and the Enterprise go looking for God.

Saje | June 24, 23:31 CET

Oh, Saje you're absolutely right.
I'm so embarassed for that unforgivible mistake and tank you very much for the correction.

Really, I shouldn't try to write in English. All my few brain capacites goes on when I try to do it.

Brasilian Chaos Man | June 24, 23:57 CET

Tom Hardy, the young actor who played Shinzon in Nemesis speaks in an article about the lengths they went to to make him resemble Stewart. Shinzon Speaks!

I don't remember him at all in the film, whether his performance was good or bad, but James would have left his own particular stamp on it, I'm sure. The Trek films have been hit and miss, but First Contact is my fave of TNG movies.

I'll reserve thinking about the Whedon crew in a ST film until this prequel in production comes out. See if it's any good.

Tonya J | June 25, 00:01 CET

I remember that he didn't really seem hard but apart from that he was perfectly serviceable I reckon. JM would probably have done a fine job but he'd still have been in a crap film IMO, no matter how good his performance, it wouldn't have been enough.

Really, I shouldn't try to write in English. All my few brain capacites goes on when I try to do it.

Ah no worries Brasilian Chaos Man, you do a much better job than I would in Portuguese ;).

Saje | June 25, 00:04 CET

Sorry, Saje, to disrespect you or Doyle. (Yes, I looked him up.) It wasn't meant in disrespect, but I was using classifiers. In Angel, he was drunk, and he was Irish. Doyle didn't make it easy for people to give him respect; he didn't have much respect for himself. Of course, "Hero" gives light to the tragic character, but then there's no more tragic charcter. Except Angel.

I love Doyle, probably even more so for his refusal to lead a straight and normal life. I went through that period too; I just didn't get to be roasted alive while saving half-demons and humans alike. So he is far better than myself.

And, of course, this comment wouldn't have to have been so long-winded if I had just looked up his name in the first place. But, then again, instead of pointing out my flaws and allowing me to feel the guilt that is needed to write such a long-winded post, you could have just supplied Doyle's name, I would have thanked you, and all would have been merrier.

One day, Saje, we should meet. If anything, just so I can see how the clever comments on-line are delivered in person. I think I might learn a thing or two.

korkster | June 25, 00:23 CET

You'd probably learn that I find it easier to make clever comments when I have a few minutes to think about them ;).

But, then again, instead of pointing out my flaws and allowing me to feel the guilt that is needed to write such a long-winded post, you could have just supplied Doyle's name, I would have thanked you, and all would have been merrier.

The thing is korkster, Glenn Quinn (the Irish actor that played Doyle) struggled for years with alcoholism and eventually died of a drug overdose. I actually thought you were referring to the man rather than the character which, as i'm sure you'd agree, would be in very poor taste. If that genuinely wasn't the case and you didn't know about his personal situation then I apologise for overreacting. No hard feelings ;).

(just so you know, I might disagree if you describe a fictional character that way but i'm very unlikely to actually have a go at you - only real people justify that sort of response)

Saje | June 25, 00:34 CET

I remember when I was watching the movie, thinking that Shinzon didn't remotely resemble Picard, other than the baldness (which was irrelevant really - why necessarily assume that Picard lost his hair at a young age?), and that distracted from the film. James Marsters actually does resemble Patrick Stewart in facial structure, and you could look at him and believe that he could grow into Picard. And he certainly would have made the character more interesting.

But that still wouldn't have saved the movie.

barboo | June 25, 01:11 CET

Saje, so we're clear, I meant Doyle, the character. I did not mean Mr. Glenn Quinn. I would never disrespect him like that. I remember there being an episode dedicated to him because he died, but I was unaware of the specifics. It just made it even more tragic to lose such a great guy/talent (since I have never actually met him), and I thought it was nice that they paid respects to his person.

Yeah, that would have been in very poor taste, and if someone else had done that, I'd take issue with it for personal reasons. No one really knows besides the person themselves (and then sometimes not even) what had occurred to lead down such a path, and it's heartbreaking for all. My dad was such a tale. To only glimpse at the man who was once loved through the barrier of alcohol, and never really know the truth is hard to take.

Which, I guess you could apply that to Doyle & Cordelia. However, I believe Doyle & Angel serve the situation best. Angel knew there was more to know, if there was ever a chance to see past Doyle's past and see the man. There just wasn't any time to "save" him. I lean towards Angel more than Cordelia because, like Angel, I tend to be aware of troubled persons, largely because I'm a slightly troubled person. If you don't take notice, you may lose them. Cordelia lived with the missed opportunities of not exploring Doyle (giving him the chance to see where it could lead), but Angel seemed to understand the depth of the situation better.

And, for my classification of Doyle, he (like myself) tends to be sardonic about his own personalities & character flaws. To present the flaws, and yet not mention his other traits (that are quite wonderful), seems to me that he had planned on shaping his life upon this image (even if it wasn't entirely true and he didn't really approve of it). When the need arose though, he stood up and defended what he believed in. That's what makes him a stand-up guy.

barboo, a movie can always be saved (well, maybe not Camp). They could have shown more importance between the threat the doppleganger held (which I don't think is the case). You know the Borg will f* you up, but a mini-Picard? Meh. The story wasn't balanced between the characters (the rest of the mains became secondary). If they fleshed out a bit of story, and split the movie into two, I see success.

ETA: for clarity.

[ edited by korkster on 2008-06-24 23:00 ]

korkster | June 25, 01:56 CET

That's very well (and bravely) put korkster. Suffice it to say it's a bit of a hot-button issue for me too which is why I maybe rushed to judge when I should've given you a chance to explain first. My apologies.

Saje | June 25, 02:03 CET

i'm a huge fan of both Trek and of Buffy (although new to the Buffy world – been catching up on DVD the last 8 months – what was I thinking not watching this show back in the day?) - I can for sure say without a doubt that Spike as the Picard Clone would have made that movie 100% better... it would have still been a bad movie probably but at least better... I was pulling for them to let Nemesis be TNG's "Final Frontier" and give them a chance to do their "Undiscovered Country" - that won't happen now I don’t' think... oh well…

refuge5 | June 25, 03:45 CET

I've been sitting here trying to figure out why I can't picture the Picard clone, and realized that it's because I refused to see the movie. Hunh. I'm sure JM would have been wonderful in the role, though.

library hooligan | June 25, 04:00 CET

I think that JM would have been wonderful, (a considerable improvement). And reading the posts reminded me about how sad I was over Data, I think I had totally repressed that memory until now. I have a soft spot for TNG, it does seem like a shame to go out on the note they did. And now I'm also wondering if maybe the career path I've been missing out on can be found at Generico Amalgamated. ;)

onthedrift | June 25, 10:16 CET

I would not call myself a Star Trek fan. I guess it would be most accurate to say I don't "not like it". I can happily watch the various incarnations of it - or not.

I liked 'Nemesis', enough to have watched it a couple of times. The faults, which I assume from the general antipathy towards it are myriad, largely passed me by. I also like Tom Hardy (who I thought was excellent in 'A for Andromeda') and I cannot see a problem with his performance.

I cannot say if the film would have been better or worse had it been James Marsters in the role. He was great in the role of Spike, but the only other thing I have seen him in is 'Torchwood' and I wasn't especially impressed - largely, I think, because he just seemed to be playing Spike again, plus the fact that I found the second season of the show disappointing and rather tedious (which has nothing to do Marsters).

alien lanes | June 25, 13:24 CET

I agree. It was also inconsistent with the series itself, which, in flashbacks, showed Picard as having a full head of hair when he was younger (granted, IIRC that actor didn't look anything like Picard either, but still). I didn't have any particular opinion on the actor's performance, but I do recall being annoyed by the vast physical differences.

It would have been cool to see Marsters, but he wouldn't have saved the movie. It had much bigger problems.

flakbait | June 25, 17:57 CET

IIRC we actually see Patrick Stewart as young Picard one time, possibly when he tells Beverly that her husband's been killed - anyway, he has hair at that point too though it's thinning (or that could just have been the fault of the extremely bad wig they used ;).

Saje | June 25, 18:07 CET

This movie is after my time so I can't comment.

korkster Saje :Others have said this ebfore but I'll echo them; it's truly amazing where threads on this board at tiems end up. Having had direct experience with problems in my own family, and also having lived in a mission for a while and seen some of the results, it's a topic that hits home with me , too.

Egotistical Non-Sequitur; I think that Glenn Quinn's having died is the only reason I've never considered resurrecting Doyle in a fic. I always view my fics as episodes and there could never be one such.

DaddyCatALSO | June 25, 18:51 CET

Agreed, DaddyCatALSO, regarding the randomness of half my comments. Though it's nothing like squirrels, or evil monkeys that need to be entertained while doing math and jumping off a cliff, it's the emotional Star Trek times that I wish I could remember that I don't have to comment on every thread. Thanks for the understanding.

Saje, no problem, mate. When I finally spank my inner laziness about looking stuff up and not depending heavily on Whedonesque, it'll save me a lot of grief. :) When we meet in the not too close present and I have noblue hair though, I suggest the soggy side of the earth. California is just too freaking hot!

korkster | June 26, 05:04 CET

onthedrift...good news! You too can find gainful employment at Generico Amalgamated (or as we in the know like to call it, GenAm). Working with our stable of talented directors, like M. Night Bay and Michael Shyamawhatzit, you too can make the passively entertaining, brain-damaging movies of tomorrow! Just contact our personnel director, Mr. John Q. Public, at (555) 555-5555.

alien lanes...I think James once said in an interview that Spike was mostly him with a different accent, and even if I'm wrong in my remembrance, it certainly does show up in other things he's done. I remember seeing a made-for-TV film on USA about a bank robber, starring James. The only thing different was the distinct California-ness of the voice.

[ETA: I didn't mind. I like Spike. But I can see how being so closely reminded of another character could throw someone off.]

[ edited by BAFfler on 2008-06-26 07:58 ]

BAFfler | June 26, 10:57 CET