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"I didn't see an end, so I put a bullet in my mouth and the other guy spit it out."
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June 30 2008

(SPOILER) The second cover for Angel:ATF #12 has been released. It's the Alex Garner cover.Like the Nick Runge cover that was released earlier in the month,it's spoilerish.

Keep in mind,this is not the last issue of ATF.Issue 16 is the final issue.

LOL.........I think we posted this at the same time. Great cover huh! I wonder what it means? And who is the perspective from?
Yeah,we must of ran here and posted this the second we saw

Yes,it's a great cover.Based on the Runge cover that came out two weeks ago,I have a feeling it

[ edited by Buffyfantic on 2008-06-30 23:55 ]
It might be just me, but I think the scenery makes it look like they've perhaps made it out of Hell, by this issue?

Oh no! I've started speculating!
Who's that in the middle? Fred?

She actually looks a lot like Jessica Biel.
I really haven't been following any of the Whedony comicbook continuations, so sorry if this a silly question, but who is the woman? At first I thought it looked Willowish hairwise, but it's also not unVilike. One of the commenters on the site thought it was Fred, but I don't see that at all. Maybe Gunn has gone through another dramatic change?

Hmm, I seem to be speculating too. How unhygienic.
Looks like Virginia Bryce to me. :-)
It's Fred, guys.
That definitely doesn't look like Fred. Maybe Nina?
That's one of my favorite drawings of Spike ever.
It might be somebody pretending to be Fred. Somebody with man-hands, wide shoulder, and meaty thighs.

I think I'm going back to my "it's Gunn" theory.
Spike flicking the cig is pretty iconic.

I don't see why there is debate over that being Fred. Compare that woman to Runge's depiction of Fred from #9. If that ain't Fred I'll totally put on the dunce cap, but I'd bet my entire collection of dunce caps--which I have racked up over the years--that that is Fred.
of course it's Fred, yessir! Patxshand for the win! Again!
Thank you for that, Brian. "Who's on the cover" debates are... just horrible, horrible. Happened with Buffy 8.18 and Jo Chen's "Centaur Dawn" cover, where people were, inexplicably, arguing it might be Drusilla.

I get why it happened on Chapter 7 of "After the Fall", because the full cover wasn't supposed to be shown at that time. But, yeah, it was Fred after at most a moment of consideration.

I am staunchly against the revamping of Angel, but, hey, I don't get paid to write the book. If that's how it goes, that's how it goes. If it wasn't Chapter 12 of 16 that we're talking about, I'd consider it a real possibility that Angel is getting killed off, which would be... pretty bold, to give him his own version of "The Gift".

I'm not big on killing off characters, either, but if it were up to Angel, after over 150 episodes of television and nine issues of "After the Fall", there's no question he's rather die as human than live against as a vampire. 2.08 "The Trial" settled that question definitively.
Yay! Brian is back. I'm just saying. :)
By the by, I meant *Garner*'s depiction of Fred in #9, not Runge's. But same sentiment, you guys get my drift. Or catch it. If you want to just get it instead of catch it, because even I at times have a hard time with catching...
there's no question he's rather die as human than live against as a vampire. 2.08 "The Trial" settled that question definitively.

I have to disagree with that. I think what "The Trial" settled was that Angel would go to the ends of the Earth-to Hell itself-for someone he loved. And he loved Darla, despite what he told both her and Lindsey.
Menome, I'm not talking about what he did to save her life. I'm talking about what he'd been leading her toward for two or three episodes that culminated in her agreeing with him in "The Trial".

From "Darla"...

Darla: "You said you'd help me!"
Angel: "I will. - I want to - but - not like this."
Darla: "Turn me back. God! I can't bear this pounding in my chest for another instant!"
Angel: "It's gift. - Too feel that heart beat - to know, really and for once, that you're alive. - You're human again, Darla. You know what that means?"
Darla: "Of course I do. It means pain and suffering - and disease and death. - Look, I released you from this world once, I gave you eternal life. Now it's time for you to return the favor."
Angel: "Favor - is that what you think? - You think you did me a favor? - You damned me."

And from "The Trial", when Darla has come around and believes as he does.

Darla: "Maybe this is my second chance."
Angel: "To die?"
Darla: "Yes. To die - the way I was supposed to die in the first place."

And, Angel immediately obsesses on sparing Darla a return to vampiric life in "Reunion". There's just no ambiguity here. He *envies* her, and, between his argument and his willingness to *die* so that she could live that way instead of the other way, she is won over.

Barring some device by which Angel revamps because that and only that can get LA out of hell, there is simply *no way* he'd want that or agree to it. I daresay Spike would understand it well enough, implicitly, to refuse to sire him, either.
I want Spike/Connor familial bonding! *g* Somewhat off topic, but every time I see them I am reminded and this one (awesome cover!!) just pushed me off the limit.

KoC-Hmmm, put that way, I'd have to agree with you in part. If it were just himself-with no one else to consider other than that-then yes, there's no question Angel would rather die as a human than live again as a vampire. The trouble with that is that there's never going to be a time where he'll have that luxury.

Angel does envy Darla's humanity but I don't think he was consciously leading her toward anything or had a goal as such in mind while he was trying to help her-he was simply reacting to her actions. He didn't understand why her soul hadn't changed the core of who she was.

He later didn't understand that of Spike either and speaking of...I'm undecided in opinion as to whether he would resire Angel or not.
Okay... Spike kicking his cigarette in tomb would suggest it belongs to BUT in this way would be too much easy for me so I think someone else is in it...
Okay the woman between Connor and Spike is Fred because the boss said so, but she looks very alike to Willow.. beside the two characters are alike psicologically too (beside the gay now I mean) ^_^
A re-vamped Angel opens all kinds of questions. First, wouldn't he be somewhat lacking in a soul? Beyond that, if the demon really does take your body, would it be the same one? That's a strange question, but if a different demon hops it then it wouldn't be the same guy as Angelus...

Ah, who am I kidding. If he gets re-vamped and loses his soul -- again -- it'll be Angelus.
I really like the background on this (I have a thing for drawings of trees). My theory is it's .

I guess we'll just wait and see. :)

Hey, Brian, are you coming to Comic-Con so we can harass you in person?

KoC, as always, I love your commentaries on this topic.
Again with the spoiler fonting of idle speculation. Arrgh.
I will definitely be there. We should do an ANGEL dinner!

The cover is more symbolic. At no point do Connor, Fred and Spike gather 'round a grave in the woods. But what it's "saying", that's pretty spot-on.
I'll tell you what I think the very worst case scenario would be in terms of what comes of Angel in "After the Fall". It's him A) revamped, B) reensouled, and C) without the curse. Talk about your Wayne's World mega-happy ending for people who *must* have Angel super-powered -- giving him the no consequences version of it.

If he's revamped into Angelus, it would either mean he had to die that way or get reensouled. I'd be afraid that Brian/Joss wouldn't reensoul him with the curse for a *fourth* time in his long existence, and instead go for the Spike-tested, 'shipper-approved no-catch version.

I'm on the "let Angel have his prize, such as it is, however it came to him, and go on with life as a human champion with no superpowers, of which the Buffyverse has precious few" train.

My idle speculation, coming at the nominal start of "Act IV" in "After the Fall", is that Gunn will succeed in killing Angel and he'll *have* to be revamped to save the yadda yadda yadda. Maybe even Spike doing the honors, and while the burial isn't literally, the sentiment behind flicking a cigarette on him would be genuine -- Spike giving him a wry kiss-off for the bad way it had to go, and also the figurative "burn" it would be for Angel to have to be a vampire again.

EDIT: Worth pointing out that if Spike were to revamp Angel, we'd end up with a darker sort of penumbrally ensouled version of Angelus/Angel; he'd be in the same existential crisis as Lawson in "Why We Fight" and faced with much greater challenges of self-control. That would at least be a new enough way to go. I'd still be grousing that he couldn't just stay human though.

[ edited by KingofCretins on 2008-07-01 22:41 ]
Let Angel have his prize!?! Arrrg!!!!!!!!!

He doesn't *deserve* that longed-for humanity, not one tiny iota of it. Nor does he deserve to bear no consequences for his actions. (IMO of course)

Frankly, I'm hoping when they set things as right as they can, that he'll just revert back to himself once LA is LA once more.
I was actually using the term pretty sarcastically when I typed it; should have used quotation marks. If anything, I don't think Angel did much between "Home" and "Not Fade Away" to deserve more than a withering glare, let alone his humanity. "After the Fall", as things stand, has successfully managed to turn the Shanshu premise into just a morally neutral event, something that happened. I'd like to see it stay that way. He's human now not because he deserved it, just because it happened. That's probably the best way it ever could happen, so run with it.
Yeah, especially with the whole "prize" aspect of receiving humanity. Angel idolized it when he was a vampire, and through his fever dreams in Season 5 (all the seasons, actually), thought that his peers would revere it as well.

That's not the case, and that's humanity for you.

I'm with you on the boat that Angel should stay human. In reality, there aren't many comic books that the hero isn't superhuman. Angel is one and it's his friends who will come to rescue. I like it. The spotlight is on him and yet not on him at the same time.

So, yeah, IMO Angel deserves to be human- dull, broken, fighting the surge of egoness, and trying not to get killed while treading the moral line of right & wrong.

I always thought that being a vampire inhibits the growth of that person. Angel & Spike have grown more than other vampires, but they are also constantly in groups of humans, interacting with them, and they both have souls. But, honestly, has Angel changed *much* in his ways since Season 1? He still pushed people away, was depressed, took it alone until someone got hurt, and remained emotionally detached until he got pissed (or happy). Spike's the same, with a lesser extent. For proof, watch their interactions in Season 5. There's just limitations to the growth of vampires. Probably because they live forever and change isn't obvious to them.

HUMAN Angel, though, has to step up to the plate and work on his learning curve. He WILL die as a human, and yet there's so much for him to learn. You could actually compare his status to Anya's for a moment. Anyanka was a vengenance demon for a 1000+ years, and didn't really "grow" much until she was placed in a world where life was precious. Yes, the learning curve was greater for her than Angel, but she did progress over the years. I think Season 7's "Selfless" is a great turning point for her, especially when confronted with the REAL armageddeon and she stays and fights and dies.

IMHO, it would be an honor for Angel to have that opportunity to "grow up" and "learn" as Anya did in her short time.

What do you peeps think?

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