Whedonesque : Comments on 16760 : Lying In The Gutters hears a rumour regarding the Buffy Tarot cancellation.

They "hear talk it was due to conflicts with the representatives of certain actors/actresses who appear on the cards". That could be something as baseless as someone from Comic Book Resources read the thread on here and used it for reporting in that column.

Not an unlikely theory though.

If it's Robia LaMorte or if Emma Caulfield is way more Conservative than we thought...why not simply drop their card from the deck, commission the artist to do another character or something abstract to replace it...and still release the set ?

Unless SMG is the one who had a problem with it and, because she's most likely featured in more than one image, it ruins the whole idea of the set (can't exactly have a Buffy tarot card set without Buffy in it...I mean I'd buy one anyway, but they wouldn't be having much faith in the marketability without their lead character).

I'm really not getting this. If it is being held up by an actor, what, did they threaten to sue or something ? Ridiculous.

Kris | July 01, 10:14 CET

That could be something as baseless as someone from Comic Book Resources read the thread on here and used it for reporting in that column.

That would be horrifyingly hysterical, in a most depressing way.

theonetruebix | July 01, 10:18 CET

If it is being held up by an actor, what, did they threaten to sue or something ? Ridiculous.

They wouldn't have to threaten to sue, it's usually written into their contract that they have final approval on anything with their likeness. Standard operating procedure for actors and licensing.

danregal | July 01, 10:23 CET

To my knowledge, Sarah is the only one with a likeness right to assert amongst the cast. So, if true, her people would probably have been the ones to veto it.

To which I say -- yes ma'am, no problem.

She got her likeness rights at some point as part of being compensated for starring in one of the awesomest television shows in the history of the medium. If the price of that turns out a few years later to include not being able to merchandise a parlor game? Well... that's not nearly as important as possibly having had only 3 or 5 televised seasons.

Really, though, why give the "rumored" reason any credit? It's not necessary to even speculate on it. This was not a product that was ever likely to mint money for Dark Horse, just a nice little tidbit. There's a hundred or more possible business reasons it could have been cancelled.

KingofCretins | July 01, 10:24 CET

Ah, I thought they signed away some of those rights. I mean when it comes to action figures and whatnot, I thought they could just say, "No I don't like the prototype mold", but the company would still be allowed to go through wtih making the toy after eventually tweaking the likeness to the actor's satisfaction.

All right then, I should try to respect the opinion of whoever found this objectionable for personal reasons, be they religious or superstitious (I've noticed more than a few Whedonesque members find Ouija Boards creepy, so I can see how someone might be freaked out by pretend fate-predicting tarot cards. I guess I just wish people weren't so weirdly superstitious). But I can't help feeling they're a big ol' stick in the mud anyway.

Kris | July 01, 10:28 CET

Well if people don't like it, they can make their own. That's the beauty of fandom. Or alternatively they can bitch about it to death. That's also the beauty of fandom.

Simon | July 01, 10:30 CET

Heh, I don't have the artistic ability to make my own (nor would I invest the time probably, if it's easy to obtain and I can buy it, that's the way to go for me...except for making t-shirts sometimes).

But yes, you're right, bitch bitch bitch (I admit I like indulging in whiny speculation about crap we have no control over), moving along now.

Kris | July 01, 10:33 CET

That could be something as baseless as someone from Comic Book Resources read the thread on here and used it for reporting in that column.

That would be horrifyingly hysterical, in a most depressing way.

I actually thought that about the rumor starting here, too. Yes, horrifyingly hysterical, yet so sadly fitting in our world: how many "rumors" have we come across about the Whedonverse that started here, with stray musings from tired persons? Or, for that matter, spot-on guesses by highly caffeinated individuals?

And, would this site count as a credible source? I guess "hell yes" to the unsubstantiated rumors that Joss posts, but what about the rest of us?

Well if people don't like it, they can make their own. That's the beauty of fandom. Or alternatively they can bitch about it to death. That's also the beauty of fandom.

There are actually quite a few fan-conceived tarot sets (or at least the ideas) that can be found online. Most of them use screencaps and the like, instead of the beautiful artwork that accounted for 85% of my desire to purchase the set. But yup, the idea has existed before and still does today. As for me, I don't even really know tarot; I was going to buy the cards and learn from them. So really, though this sucks now, I can look at it in the long run as a money and time saver.

As for bitching about it to death, I'm sure that we'll find something equally outraging to satisfy us in the next few weeks. So at least there's variety in the blue streaks we bitch, from cobalt to aqua to an almost violet, with turquoise polka dots.

ET: make sense. It's late!

[ edited by BandofBuggered on 2008-07-01 08:22 ]

BandofBuggered | July 01, 11:20 CET

Comic Con is coming up, there're almost always exciting and upbeat announcements around then in July (if not Whedon-related, there's still always something I care about getting announced or confirmed. Something always explodes). Plus there's Dr. Horrible, which already started today in comic form and made me very happy. As a result, there should be 90% less bitching from myself and most others. New material seems to have that effect, at least on this board.

Kris | July 01, 11:25 CET

Or, for that matter, spot-on guesses by highly caffeinated individuals?

Hey, i'm sitting right here ! ;-)

(think I may have mentioned the likeness thing first on that thread but it was about 2 o'clock-ish so i'd actually have been coming down from my morning caffeine fest. If i'd only posted two hours earlier Morgan Freeman might actually be [rumoured to be] playing Wonder Woman ;)

Got my doubts though, even if it's the craft services guy's second assistant (or maybe a friend of the brother of the woman that brings Scott Allie his morning bagel in this instance) most of these sites know someone who's ostensibly "in the loop". Doesn't make the rumour any more true, just possibly less of a blind speculation.

That said, if people are actually using any of our random musings as grist to the rumour mill i'd laugh so hard i'd probably wee myself a little bit ;). Just like Nathan Fillion is known to do, when he's not collecting volcanoes or constructing abstract art from bicycle inner tubes and shaving foam *waits patiently for this to filter through*.

Saje | July 01, 13:37 CET

I think everyone in the cast has a likeness veto. I recall Michelle Trachtenburg's people stirring something up with Dark Horse back in the day. (It was resolved over a dinner with Amber Benson and Scott Allie!)

daylight | July 01, 13:47 CET

Many of the world's problems are the result of low blood sugar and so could be solved over dinner IMO. I know I get really cranky when I haven't eaten anyway. Maybe not centuries-of-internecine-warfare cranky but certainly a bit miffed.

Saje | July 01, 13:53 CET

I think they call it "peckish" because a person might feel like drilling a hole in something with his or her beak, if he or she had one. Around a table is an even better place to talk with a bunch of people than at the computer.

[ edited by toast on 2008-07-01 11:04 ]

toast | July 01, 14:02 CET

Makes sense, i've long wanted a short-hand for "I'm so hungry I could drill something with my non-existent beak" and "peckish" fits to a T.

And yep, "breaking bread" and all that, touches something primal in us I reckon - if you're eating with someone they must be in-group, right ? (to the "lizard" part of the brain anyway)

Saje | July 01, 14:18 CET

Yep it makes sense to me. Maybe some found a problem with some characters being portrayed nearly naked or something. I just don't know.

Personally I'm not all that fussed as I didn't intended to purchase them anyway.

sueworld2003 | July 01, 14:58 CET

Nope, makes no sense- why advertise at all if you do not have all your ducks in a row? My suspician is that someone woke up and decided this was not going to mkae any money. Once cancelled, the rumors started.

Dana5140 | July 01, 15:59 CET

This is one of the few products I've seen mentioned on non-Sci-Fi sites. So it seems that it was going to have reach beyond comic fandom.

While I don't subscribe to any religion, I have friends that do including ones that use Tarot. I like the art and the symbolism, in the same way I appreciate other forms of religious art.

I can't hold it against any one for not wanting their likeness used in certain ways if that is actually the case here. I wouldn't agree to have my likeness used on a Tarot deck, or a Bible (regardless if it was real deck or a real book). A person's likeness is the one thing a person owns no matter what...unless they're a politician...or they sign it away. As I understand it likeness rights are something one has to sign to give up, not sign to keep.

Everything I know about Tarot, I learned from the "Bitter Suite" episode of Xena as the whole ep is a tarot reading set to music.

[ edited by GrrrlRomeo on 2008-07-01 13:36 ]

GrrrlRomeo | July 01, 16:33 CET

While I'm sad that these tarot cards will not be made, I found the report to be a bit snarky for my taste. If someone in the cast didn't want their face on a tarot deck that's their right and who are we to be nasty about it?

missmuffet | July 01, 17:29 CET

Or alternatively they can bitch about it to death. That's also the beauty of fandom.

Maybe that's actually the ugly of fandom.

barboo | July 01, 18:14 CET

Don't want to bitch about it but I'm still sorry to see them go -- the artwork looked brilliant.

doghouse | July 01, 18:19 CET

There are Biblical prohibitions against all forms of divination (if you're not the High Priest in Jerusalem). Not many actors profess the conservative forms of Judaism and Christianity that respect these prohibitions, but it's possible that someone had a religious scruple.

Among people who practice divination, either as part of their religion or not, Tarot decks are held in higher regard than Ouija boards, for technical reasons that would be off topic here. And there is really no such thing as a "toy" or "joke" Tarot deck, only decks that are more or less well constructed for divination or meditation. One can tell fortunes with an ordinary pack of playing cards.

janef | July 01, 21:29 CET

Except though Tarot card decks started out as a game. They were an ordinary deck of cards that people started using to tell fortunes, not the other way around.

NYPinTA | July 01, 21:37 CET

There are still Tarot decks made for playing games. It's just not common in the U.S.

Nope, makes no sense- why advertise at all if you do not have all your ducks in a row?

I expect an actor's reps would want to see the product or the paintings at least before they made a decision. Possibly Dark Horse people got cranking along in parallel and then a denied permission stopped the whole thing. So yeah they shouldn't have advertised yet. But maybe getting permissions takes forever and it was pending and looked likely but then changed. You never know.

Sunfire | July 01, 21:47 CET

One can tell fortunes with an ordinary pack of playing cards.

No, one can't. Nor can one with a Tarot deck or a Ouija board.

witchlover | July 01, 22:13 CET

And many believe differently, witchlover.

TamaraC | July 01, 22:24 CET

Many believe a lot of things. I'll take notice when they come up with some evidence.

witchlover | July 01, 22:28 CET

Serious investigation into ESP, Tarot, and the occult has never revealed anything but random chance or hoaxes. So yes, you can believe if you wish, but realize the facts do not support your belief. You're more likely to be successful in life by making decisions based on reason and tempered by compassion than on the random shuffling of cards, or by following the advice of con-artists.

That said, it's a shame these cards won't be coming out. I view this merchandise as fun make-believe, not unlike the Buffy series itself.

quantumac | July 01, 22:38 CET

most of these sites know someone who's ostensibly "in the loop".

And I 've seen sites repeat the rumour that SMG was going to play Harley Quinn in the latest Batman movie and I actually saw that rumour starting life on IMDB with a post on the SMG board there .

garda39 | July 01, 23:13 CET

Serious investigation into ESP, Tarot, and the occult has never revealed anything but random chance or hoaxes.

Or (I'm focusing on tarot, here) smart readers who ask good questions and play psychologist as much as mystic. Personally, I'm practical to the bone about these kinds of things, but still have fun now and then with tarot cards; if nothing else, it can get you looking at things through fresh perspectives. But I don't approach it from a religious standpoint, and tend to think that as with many things in life, it only has as much power as you yourself invest in it. Your mileage may vary, etc.

But it's why I was bummed about the discontinuation of the set... I would have enjoyed using it. Oh well. Shall go back to the Vertigo deck and be content. :)

Casira | July 02, 00:14 CET

"One can tell fortunes with an ordinary pack of playing cards."

"No, one can't. Nor can one with a Tarot deck or a Ouija board."

I didn't claim that the fortunes were accurate. :-) And there are occultists who view Tarot strictly as a meditation tool and think that fortune-telling is an abuse of them. As well as people who appreciate the cards purely as works of art, as some people here do.

Speaking as someone who has used several divination systems, I have found that the I Ching delights in being asked questions about how to navigate the politics of organizations and social groups. When I have asked the Book of Changes for guidance on such matters, the replies I have received were specific and accurate, as good or better than advice from a human friend. This is of course anecdotal evidence and YMMV.

janef | July 02, 00:19 CET

Nope, makes no sense- why advertise at all if you do not have all your ducks in a row?

Why announce at a comic con panel that Whedonesque would be previewing the tarot cards without actually consulting us before hand?

And I 've seen sites repeat the rumour that SMG was going to play Harley Quinn in the latest Batman movie and I actually saw that rumour starting life on IMDB with a post on the SMG board there .

I remember that. All too common these days unfortunately.

Simon | July 02, 00:28 CET

...if nothing else, it can get you looking at things through fresh perspectives. But I don't approach it from a religious standpoint, and tend to think that as with many things in life, it only has as much power as you yourself invest in it. Your mileage may vary, etc.

Bingo. :)

NYPinTA | July 02, 00:51 CET

Georges said at DragonCon last year that SMG has VERY strict guidelines on how she's drawn - so it wouldn't be surprising if this rumor is true.

BrownCoat_Tabz | July 02, 01:05 CET

Quantumac said, "Serious investigation into ESP, Tarot, and the occult has never revealed anything but random chance or hoaxes. So yes, you can believe if you wish, but realize the facts do not support your belief. You're more likely to be successful in life by making decisions based on reason and tempered by compassion than on the random shuffling of cards, or by following the advice of con-artists."

Quantumac, maybe you can help me out, can you please recommend a faith where fact actually DOES support the belief?

Maybe I'm mistaken but I thought most major organized religions are based on faith. As flawed as something like Tarot could be perceived, at least you can see it with your own eyes. ;)

Further, I think its pretty safe to say that religion and con-artists are not solely confined to fortune tellers and Tarot cards.

Tarot isn't my thing, so I'm not offended by your comment, it just seemed funny to me...Of course its not supported by facts. If it were, it would probably very quickly become the only religion on the planet.

alexreager | July 02, 01:10 CET

Since I only wanted to buy these for the art, I'm kind of hoping now that Dark Horse will be able to release them as a book of paintings rather than a Tarot deck - assuming it's the superstition aspect of Tarot that was the problem, rather than one of the actors seeing the pictures and saying "Eww, I don't look like that!"...

stormwreath | July 02, 01:20 CET

Quantumac, maybe you can help me out, can you please recommend a faith where fact actually DOES support the belief?

Not going to speak for Quantumac, but for me the answer is "nope - there is no such animal".

witchlover | July 02, 01:20 CET

Quantumac, maybe you can help me out, can you please recommend a faith where fact actually DOES support the belief?

I think the difference is that most religions do not promise someone a quantifiable result. However, with ESP and tools of divination such as Tarot, the idea is that they will give you something measurable such as your immediate future in the case of the cards, or a person with ESP should be able to accurately tell you whatever it is you are thinking/looking for. If they are wrong, it's a measurable thing. And as such can be investigated.

NYPinTA | July 02, 01:26 CET

Not going to speak for Quantumac, but for me the answer is "nope - there is no such animal". Sure there is: Morgan Freeman!

Since I slept in waaay late today, people have already said in their own ways what I think in terms of tarot in specific and faith in general. It's all about how you take it, and if you choose to either put meaning to the cards based on past experiences or events following the reading. For me, I've had a reading done, and I use it as a chance to sort things out in my own head based on what the reading said--like if a certain card brought forward something that I was keeping in the back of my mind but should really deal with.

Funnily enough, one time I got the death card in the middle--three months later, I was in a car accident that has definitely changed my life. I don't think that's a self-fulfilling prophecy, maybe just an (un)happy coincidence. Or maybe it really did predict something. Who knows?

BandofBuggered | July 02, 01:34 CET

alexreager: I suppose there may be faiths out there which support the use of Tarot. They're probably not considered "mainstream." I'm no expert. Like Joss, I have no religious faith. I'm more one to believe in reason, logic and science over religion and superstition. Still, I would have liked to see the Tarot cards for the art-factor, and the fun it represents.

quantumac | July 02, 01:35 CET

My understanding of what alexreager was pointing out is that all faiths are supported by belief and not facts - that a belief in Tarot (in the sense of it actually revealing the future, and not in terms of it being a meditation or self-exploratory tool) is a belief like that of any other religious system. (And I'd have to agree with that.) I don't think he was looking for pointers on how to find a Tarot-based religion, or reassurance that such exist - unless I'm wrong and he was. (In which case, frak me.)

Anyhoo, imo, smart readers are good psychologists, and helpful readers are the ones that turn it all back on you - they get you to look inside and pull your projections back in. For that, almost any symbol system would work - runes, crystal reading, Bibliomancy or divination by New York Times headlines.

The thing I like about Tarot is that the symbology is so varied and lovely, and the steps through the cards - the journey - provides a lot of room for meaningful projection.

QuoterGal | July 02, 01:52 CET

Personally, I always used the Tarot as a focusing tool. At any given time, I'm pretty near overloaded with information and "background noise", and I found that using the cards helped me narrow in on whatever I was concerned about. Do the cards "tell the future"? Of course not - there's nothing any more special about them than any other deck of cards (except for some really peachy-keen artwork on most Tarot decks...) But that's not to say you can't generate some fairly accurate answers using them. Of course, you could probably get the same answers by paying for an hour's analysis or just grabbing someone who's a good listener to use for a sounding board - but, then, where's the fun in that, when you can use a tool that's guaranteed to make half your acquaintances look at you askance and the other half ridicule you? ;-)

Of course, with this deck, I was kinda stuck at, "Ooo, pretty!" Now I'm kinda stuck at, "Well, damn..."

Rowan Hawthorn | July 02, 04:11 CET

I think someone skilled in tarot can use the deck to help the person they're reading find out things about themself - sort of therapy with cards. Not so much about the future, as discovering the present.

redeem147 | July 02, 05:50 CET

Well, if I'd had a tarot deck I could have predicted this.

IRONY!

missb | July 05, 05:30 CET

July 01 2008