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July 02 2008

(SPOILER) For the discussion of Buffy #16. Joss returns with the highly anticipated 'Time of Your Life' arc. cannot be shown. You cannot just watch, but you must see. See for yourself, but only if you're willing to make the exchange.

I must say, reading the start of the rocket-paced (heh) "Time of Your Life", the first thing I'm glad to see is that there is no new time-travel mechanic introduced here. Rather, to my surprise and delight, the method by which Buffy is pulled into the future appears to be the same as the one used in "Get It Done" -- the exchange portal. I love this especially because it suggests that there is real, Powers That Be/Good Guy type importance to this meeting, just as there was to Buffy learning the true origin of the Slayer.

Love seeing Willow and Kennedy together again. I was every bit as happy to see Kennedy and Vi as I thought I would be, and they both rocked. ESPECIALLY love Kennedy dropping "Les-faux" on Buffy, because, heh.

Dawn's centaur turn is pretty much perfunctory, and it's about what we thought -- the second of a three phase thing that will presumably lead to Dawn being Dawn again. It makes me wonder, though... maybe this is a good thing. Whatever happened, whether it was Kenny or not, maybe it's vital. Dawn as a giant made a huge difference, twice, doing something she couldn't have done otherwise -- incapacitating Amy, and leading the Slayer rally in the Tokyo battle. Now maybe Dawn as a centaur will be able to do something vitally important she couldn't have otherwise done.

Xander... poor Xander. First the loss of Renee and his apparent determination to push ahead alone, but now the BHC. I worked hard and took pride in coining the enduring fan name for the Slayer headquarters, but after 8.16, I'm changing it from BHC to BPR -- Big Pile of Rubble. Xander, sans Bluetooth, left standing and watching while the BHC was totally destroyed and everyone in it -- including Leah and maybe Rowena and who knows who else -- is all but certainly killed. The guy is living a nightmare at the moment, and is totally going to be blame himself for this. First he lost his girl, now he lost his command, his friends, his students.

Twilight continues to be awesome, of course, and clearly means very serious business. This attack seems to settle the vain hope that he means well in some way. Amy and Warren, though, may be the two dumbest smart people on the planet. They are openly working with Twilight, so they are either too stupid to inquire into his agenda (which is very anti-them), or too stupid to *understand* that his agenda is very anti-them. Either way, though, Amy and Warren are owed pain now, in a big way.

There was so little of Fray in this issue it's hard to comment on, but the set-up is great.

Kumiko *was* a vampire :)
I won't have my copy of this or Angel #10 until later today but just reading your comments gives me the feeling Xander is going to go to a dark place this season.

[ edited by Buffyfantic on 2008-07-02 16:11 ]
I think Twilight is future Xander
With no foundation for that sort of time travel dynamic, I'm not worried about that. Besides, Twilight just dished out to Xander what is undoubtedly one of the most traumatic experiences of his life, which a Future Xander would know -- why would he jam himself up like that? Why would a Future Xander want to murder all his friends?

Twilight theories are pretty moot at this point; the guy is a mass murdering bastard. Any existing character used in that role... there's no coming back from this, ever. And all the more reason why any Scooby betrayal would be the Worst Idea Joss Has Ever Had, is that he's taken Twilight's agenda too far for whoever the traitor is to come back from that either, and to ditch a character permanently like that would be, as they say, made of fail.

Kennedy has no idea about snake-lady. Not a surprise, but not a situation I expect will last through this arc.
Twilight theories are pretty moot at this point; the guy is a mass murdering bastard. Any existing character used in that role... there's no coming back from this, ever. And all the more reason why any Scooby betrayal would be the Worst Idea Joss Has Ever Had, is that he's taken Twilight's agenda too far for whoever the traitor is to come back from that either, and to ditch a character permanently like that would be, as they say, made of fail.

So to sum up, Kings not keen on that idea. *g*
It's sorta like how Oz explained about coming back to repeat his senior year. "Remember how in 'Empty Places', all of Buffy's friends turned their back on her? Remember how it was a really disliked episode?"

Take "Empty Places", wrap it up in a darker, more sinister, permanent sort of betrayal, fill the entire thing with ball bearings, tie it to a shovel, and begin beating the audience over the head with it, and you'd have a Scooby betrayal payoff to the angle set up in 8.09 and 8.10. For that reason above all others, I hope it's Satsu. People can whinge all they want about some make-believe message that it would be "oh noes teh lesbian is ev1l!", but the fact is she fits the criteria without being a character that the audience is so emotionally invested in that a good chunk of it might just tune the story out if one of their favorite characters went bad. I mean, really, how can you even enjoy the character in the first seven seasons if you know that Willow or Xander or Dawn turns out to be, like, for real, for keeps, evil? Every rewatch would turn into the Star Wars prequel trilogy, somberly watching the set-up for a character you know goes bad.

And with Twilight, why I said it was moot, is that there is no longer any reason why "who" is under that mask can change the situation. If it's Riley, if it's Willy the Snitch, if it's Hank, it doesn't change that this is the worst and most hateful and destructive enemy Buffy's been set against. Twilight just killed something like 50 or 100 odd Slayers and mystics. Whoever is under that mask, whatever they were before, they're liquid evil *now*.
Have not seen the issue, but I have always wondered if the term "betray" was going to be twisted on this. The betrayal would not be straight out but be something that either the person would not consider a betrayal, would be accidental etc. Much like the betrayals by Gunn, Xander, Wesley etc in the series'.

As far as who Twilight is, I got the feeling from something or another that it was going to be Fray's brother in a time traveling deal. Did I dream that?
Actually,what you guys are talking about sounds like what DC Comics did back in the Armageddon 2001 crossover.The villain Monarch(Hank Hall) was revealed as a future version of the superhero Hawk of Hawk&Dove.Monarch went back in time and murdered Dove in front of his younger heroic self to make sure his future self would come into being.He basically created himself through a time paradox.

I don't know if Xander will turn out to be connected to Twilight or not,I just think Xander is going to a dark place this season either way.He lost Anya.Now he just lost Renee and right on the heels of that,the events in issue 16 happen.The poor guy is having crap upon crap dumped on him.
So many awesomenesses!

ETA: (In today's issue, if that wasn't clear.)

[ edited by Pointy on 2008-07-02 19:18 ]
It will not be Xander, but I agree that we are being led to believe that it will be Xander. I believe it will be Giles. It better not be Willow, because that would suck worse than it being Xander. And it will not be Satsu, because of that "lesbian thing" and because it really makes no sense and would have no resonance. The betrayal, however it occurs, has to be from someone who really, really matters. And Satsu does not.

Of course, there is always Kennedy... :-) Just kidding!
KingofCretins - You know what you make a good point - I have no idea why Xander would intentionally do those things to himself - but it has to be somebody really big I think - someone who knows Buffy. I don't know who that would be.
For Twilight, I'm leaning toward Hank, just because he would be the most painful betrayal of all. Imagine Buffy finding out her father, a person who was suppose to be there for her, who was suppose to love and cherish Buffy and her mother, not only ran off with his secretary but is also the man behind the mask.

I can vividly see a scene where Buffy backhands him across the room. The remaining slayers and Willow would scramble to barely hold her back from pummeling him into paste, all the while Buffy cries her eyes out, screaming profanities at him.

Oh yeah, lots of drama potential in Twilight being Hank. But what do I know?
I think newcj must be right.....that it won't be a simple betrayal, where someone we thought we knew better is angry, or jealous, or decides it was all hopeless from the start and sells Buffy just wouldn't work, and it would be a total departure from everything that went before...all 8 seasons.

If it turns out that someone is other than the person we thought they were, it will have to feel as if we should have known all along...or seen it coming. Because character changes have never been arbitrary; they have always been developments.

Seems to me most likely that the betrayal will be something that doesn't seem like one at the time, or it will be a mistake, or an action with far bigger consequences than the betrayer could have guessed.

Or, not.
Love the reviews!

What about Dawn? Twilight could be her last stage.

*dodges flying rotten fruit*

Sorry! Haven't got it yet. But, since these speculations aren't based on facts, why not? Everyone thinks it's a Scoob, why not her sister? And, whoa, what a betrayal. Buffy dies in Season 5 just so her sister can end all that they know. Ouch!
And, for the record, I agree with toast on the accident approach. Poor Wes.
Haven't read the issue yet, probably won't get to my comic shop today due to July 1st Canada Day delays in shipping, but want to take part in discussion anyway.

It probably shouldn't be Hank Summers because a lot of viewers/readers have probably forgotten what the guy looks like. He pulls off his mask, and...what? Everyone's just gonna instantly recognize and care that it was Hank ? Even with a "Dad..." from Buffy, I can't see it being anything other than mildly lame That's assuming that Jeanty (or whichever artist is on the book at that point) gets the likeness spot on in the first place.

The only reason to feature Buffy's dad at all in Season 8 would be to explain what he's been up to. It's not like you need the deadbeat dad to turn out to be a supervillain mastermind to explain why he's appeared to be a deadbeat dad for 7 to 10 years of his daughter's life/daughters' lives (the Dawn memories thing always throws me). Besides, "fathers are evil" and exploring daddy issues has already been explored enough in this franchise, IMO.

I hope he's still paying child support for Dawn though.

I don't care who the betrayer is, as long as the motivations make sense and it's a cool reveal. If it's a non-villain character I really enjoy (Xander, Giles), it's not gonna ruin my enjoyment of re-watching them in the series. It'll simply prompt a different perspective. They were good up until...that sorta feeling. I'm not actively jockeying for it to happen, but one of the core four making a grievous mistake (that you can't come back from, a la Willow Season 6) or having strong reasons for going against the others could be interesting, could be a brave direction to take the series in, however unpopular.

Whatever proves to be the most entertaining, intelligent, and thought-provoking storyline given everything we've already seen the character go through, I want Joss to go there. Not what gives people the most happies. I know the series has done death, depression, and disappointment a whole lot already, but if the health of the story calls for it...
Having read the issue I now believe Joss turned Dawn into a centaur solely so he could use the "neigh" joke.

Agrees with Kris.
I'm guessing that Twilight must be Marcie, sure Scott said she wasn't making an appearance, but he might just be saying that!

I laughed a lot at Dawn's new problem: I think that it is funny that Joss was annoyed about people yelling "shut up Dawn" during OMWF, but then he does nothing but poke fun at her whining (or is that whinnying?).

My heart is breaking for poor Xander, things are going from bad to worse to unbearable.

I loved seeing Kennedy, she was drawn better than everyone else, and had some great lines (still kind of a brat, I'm glad to see). I'm really looking forward to next month to see if Buffy and Fray can work together!
Personally, I just can't see it being Hank. What kind of emotional resonance would that hold for the reader? Yeah, I can see how Buffy would be upset. But, for the reader... Giles is, for all intents and purposes, Buffy's father. He's the one who was her father figure for seven seasons, on the television series. I can't see any reasoning behind Hank being Twilight.

In addition, was it ever confirmed that he knew anything about the supernatural world? Yeah, Buffy once confessed to him and Joyce that she was the Slayer. But they put her in a mental institution. How would Hank find himself so immersed in the supernatural?
If the addition of "y" to words that don't usually end in "y" results in the end of society as we know it. Fine. Yay from me.
Nice clip, embers. You got a chuckle out of me. :)

And, yeah, dreamlogic, I like the idea of society ending due to the world being spun on its "y" axis. :)
Great issue, even if someone is mysteriously zapped away somewhere again. Seriously. What the fuck. Get a new plot device.

But apart from that, I loved it. Can't wait to see more Fray, and damn, the castle got blown up. :-(

Oh, and apparently I missed the fan memo despite reading all of the discussion threads, but what exactly does BHC stand for, KingOfCretins?
I have my copy of Part 1 of the long awaited Buffy/Fray crossover.

Actually Fray dosen't appear much in this issue.The issue is really a strong build up to Buffy and Fray meeting.The issue opens with Buffy and Fray fighting over Fray's city and then we backtrack and see how everything led up to Buffy ending up in Fray's time and we then pick back up on the Buffy/Fray meeting on the last page.

There is a lot of Buffy/Xander/Willow bonding in the beginning of the issue with Buffy and Willow trying to spare Xander's feelings over Renee's death.Xander will have none of that.

Dawn becomes a Centaur in this issue and we learn that this is the second of a three part transformation.Xander tries to make Dawn feel better but I'm just thinking,okay,first a giant,now a centaur.I bet transformation three will be even Xander is right though.Dawn looks awesome.Karl Moline's art is gorgeous.

Buffy and Willow are off to New York to follow up on Snake Lady's info from the end of last issue.Xander has concerns about leaving the castle undefended.And he's proven right later in the issue.

I think we get more concern from Willow while on the flight to New York about Buffy stealing to finance the slayers.

Speaking of New York,love Buffy's reaction to being there.Priceless.

Willow/Kennedy are reunited in this issue and I got a chuckle out of Kennedy actually threatening Buffy not to put the moves on

The most shocking thing in this issue though is in relation to Twilight,the returning Amy and skinless Warren and what they do.Yes Warren,Amy and Twilight himself return and all I can say is poor poor Xander.This guy does not catch a break.First Renee and now this.I'm probably wrong,but I really get the feeling Xander is going to a dark place this season.

Basically,Twilight has Warren build a missile with mystical symbols and spells attached to it from the looks and provided by Amy I would assume.Twilight indicates it will do its part but that it is only a small part of his plan.That part was apparently to nuke Slayer Central which they do.Xander was right to worry about leaving the castle undefended.So Twilight destroy's Slayer Central presumedly killing everyone inside.The look on Xander's face when it happens is gut wrenching.Him and Dawn were away from the castle when they saw the rocket and raced to the castle but were too late.So Xander loses Renee and then right after that,in this issue, loses all those slayers under his watch.

The issue ends with Buffy accidently being transported to Fray's time through a temporal rift and the scythe and a monster being transported into the present in Buffy's place.

This was a great beginning to this arc.
What's Buffy up to? With this "meeting"... any guesses?

I loved Karl Moline's work, it's so obviously him. Buffy's "hamnoo?" face was hilarious! Kennedy was drawn wonderfully, and the reunion between her and Willow was so cute! It's a shame she doesn't know about this snake lady stuff...
Also, yay Vi! And Twilight is hella badass, in the worst way. And, of course, poor Xander...
I really enjoyed this issue, particularly the dialogue between the Scoobies in their various scenes. Seeing Kennedy and Vi was good, and I even didn't mind Warren's reappearance. I mean, if you've used him once, done is done, so might as well just go with it.

[ edited by swanjun on 2008-07-02 23:34 ]
*covers eyes*
The darkhorse shipment was lost in transit. It never arrived at the comic book shop. We'll have to go the entire weekend without reading 16.
I agree with nicetomeatyou. Are we to assume that Buffy was simply out shopping? She said she was undercover. Hmm...
I said it during the first arc, I'm saying it now with bells on; this is too evil for how Amy has been betrayed. That just needs to be KAtherine in there again.

Beyond character consistency, the Buffyverse has plenty of villains, so another means little. It doesn't have enough characters who are "well, pretty much evil now."

And, whatever my ebefs with Joss, he's always beena good storyteller. From the sounds of this, it's turning into a mid-80s-X-Men-style-mass-murder-crapfest. (Sorry, I just absolutely hated MArvel's "Mutant titles" and anything that reminds me of them gets me like this.)
I haven't read the issue so I can't comment on much.

Just popping in to respond to this: this is too evil for how Amy has been betrayed

Assuming you meant 'portrayed' and not betrayed, I must respectfully disagree with you about the evil nature of Amy, DaddyCatALSO. This Amy is very much in tune with the Amy shown in Seasons 6 & 7.
I know some people are having troubles with the portals/rifts of time. What if they are intentional in that it's like, and aftershock of what has been done?

Or, what if it's Twilight popping Buffy into circumstances so she sees what her actions have caused?


And Amy is evil. She plays innocent, annoying, but she is hard-core. She'd sell her soul for a new toy, a new fix, or just because she wasn't in a good mood. I mean, look what she did to Willow in Season 7 and why? Just because she could.
There were bits and pieces of the art I loved but what was with Willow's expanding and contracting nose? It kept taking me away from the story instead of grounding me deeper in it.

The conversations early on with Buffy, Willow and Xander, I just smiled at. It was so perfect. I could hear the actors saying these lines. I've enjoyed all the other writers but Joss brings more authenticity to the dialogue than anyone else.
As obvious as this sounds, there's only two real possibilities for Buffy's 'meeting' -- business or personal. But it's a significant question, because of how she dressed for it. She was dressed to the nines, very chic, very sexy. So whether it was business or personal, she felt that very attractive dress was necessary for it.

If business, we could be talking about another benefactor, some of her "legitimate funding", someone that she dresses up to meet in order to impress or ingratiate -- if not David Nabbit, someone similarly situated, money wise.

If personal, then it's someone she wanted to be attractive for, and is keeping secret from others.

I think Riley is an interesting option in either case. She may be contacted him privately for advice/support about the Slayers' status with the military. Or (possibly "and"), she could be contacting him for something more romantic in nature. Possibly appropriate (if, as in one of the many popular Riley-is-Twilight theories, he's a widower now), or illicit (i.e., she's sneaking around with a married man, possibly for nothing more than information).

Season 8's storyline has featured a lot of lies, deceit, and disappointment, and Buffy having some kind of sordid affair would fit that pattern very well.

Another reason I'm enticed by the idea it's A) Riley and B) illicit is that, if he *is* Twilight, there actually is a tenable explanation for Twilight *being* the betrayal, or Buffy "betraying herself" if she's been unwittingly feeding information to her own enemy.

Another possibility, much less convoluted, is that she might be meeting Oz (again, business or personal), and keeping it from Willow for the Awkward. It would set up his return to the series.
KingofCretins, your suggestions would be against everything we know of Riley Finn.
Everything we knew. Seriously, I've done perfectly believable 25-words-or-less explanations for how Riley could get here from there, if it's him. And I can't think of a single established character that fits the facts better if Twilight is an established character. At least, not without making up whole new metaphysical concepts for the Buffyverse, like the dubious "Future Xander" theory.

My second best guess at this point would actually be Icarus, from "Fray", on the assumption that he was not, in fact, beheaded while squished, and came back through the temporal whatsit. But I find that pretty doubtful, too. On the assumption it's not a new character, though, pretty whacky is all we have left if it isn't Riley.

[ edited by KingofCretins on 2008-07-03 04:04 ]
A few quick notes for now:
I am guessing that Buffy was on some kind of datelike event. I don't think this was just shopping.

I adored Willow and Kennedy. Snappy, sizzly, darling.

All else aside, stern teacher Willow could equal best issue ever!(1)

I'm certain I'll have more later, but that's what has stuck out in my head so far.

(1)Of course, that's me...

[ edited by JessicaMelusine on 2008-07-03 04:12 ]
And I can't think of a single established character that fits the facts better if Twilight is an established character.

I can. If it weren't for the distinct physical appearance that's been shown previously, I'd say that it's Connor but I could see Giles or Xander being Twilight as well.
For Giles and Xander, we'd be doing the "making up new metaphysics for no reason" thing -- bilocation, in both cases. We've seen Xander in a different place at the same time as Twilight once (8.01), a nearly impossible distance at a proximate time another time (8.09), and in the BHC *the entire time* that the missile attack was being carried out (8.16). The guy can't be two places at once without making up some BS phlebotenum to cheat the reader. And even if he could -- why launch a missile at himself, and then scream "NO!! INCOMING! INCOMING!" in a futile attempt to warn all the people he was murdering and then stare on in horror with no witnesses to sell his surprise to?

Similarly, Giles was in England at the end of 8.09 and Twilight was in Montana.

Connor is, well, a bit short to be a stormtrooper. His dad is at least the right stature, but everybody flips right the hell out if you suggest that.

Riley has the fighting skill, the intimate understanding of Buffy's personality, and the military/networking contacts. Basically, you can give him the motivation and the superpowers in 25 or 50 words or less. He was randomly mentioned at least once already, as if trying to keep him fresh in memory for the reader. And he can actually have been in all the right places at the right times.
I think I miss Georges. Not that he's perfect or that I even want perfect but I prefer his likenesses, I guess. Something about Buffy and Xander especially just don't look like them. But Kennedy does and Dawn for some reason.

Who did Buffy go see in NYC? Did I miss something? Pseudo-crossover with Angel maybe? (And if so, I am sooo pissed that I didn't see it.)

I never read Fray so I'm not feeling any big reunion thing here. This epi kind of gave me a lonely feeling inside. I feel like Kennedy is trying to drive a wedge in between Willow and Buffy, all possessive-like. Then Buffy gets hurtled into a different time, which she has experience with, but still it makes me feel edgy. Then I feel bad for Dawn, she is so hating her life right now. Which is ironic because I always loved to see her get tortured a bit on the show because she was so annoying. But then Xander, all alone, bottling up his pain, his girls are gone, and now this. It just feels like a punch in the gut.

And then all this speculation on who Twilight is and just, no. No! Please don't let it be Xander or Giles or Buffy or Willow. That would hurt too bad. :(

I guess I am feeling soft tonight. I was riding high off of all the Scooby love from the last issue (which I only read last week) with the comfort and the help and the "what can't we face if we're together?" of it. But now everyone is scattered and things are going very very badly.
Fantastic issue. I do miss Jeantes for the artwork, likenesses or no, his art fits so very very well. That said, I like that Joss is doing a Fray storyline and is using the Fray artist. If nothing else, it helps us accept that these characters exist in the same universe. If Georges was doing these issues, I think it would be harder to swallow, comparing the art to FRAY which is so different. But by using Moline for 8.16 we are forced to accept that this is the same world as 8.15.

KRIS - Dawn's about 19 now, so she's no child to be supported. Course, Hank could just be doing the stand up thing these days...

As for Angel tie ins... LA is in Hell (and now we know the rest of the world doesn't even realize), so unless time travel is involved there's no crossovers just yet. Does anyone know where the character usage rights lay? Would Dark Horse even be able to use an Angel character?

As a reminder, lest I've mixed things up, Buffy Season 8 started roughly where a season 9 might have started on TV, about 15 months after Season 7. Season 5 of angel ended 1 year after Buffy Season 7, and ATF started about 3-4 months after that (right about where Season 6 would've been), or a total of 15 months after Buffy Season 7, so we're working with concurrent timelines here.
KingofCretins - You're reviews are always so interesting to read, but I'm going to have to completely disagree with the Riley story. As juicy and exciting a twist as I once thought it could be, I don't think Joss would just throw a random motivation at the readers. As much as I dislike him, I CANNOT see any reason for Riley to betray Buffy in such an EVIL way, which he certainly is not, and I don't think ever can be, at least not to this extreme. It really doesn't seem plausible to me.

But newcj, you pointed out something that I think is much more interesting and could definitely work - that Twilight is Fray's brother, Harth. The end of the series, he's still alive and they say he will try to fight back some years down the line. Maybe he has rethought that idea, and instead decides to use that apocalypse that destroys all magicks and demons for his advantage. And since I'm assuming that most people thought it was Buffy who finally destroyed magick, Harth figured this out as well, and turns the odds into his favor by killing these slayers. He's familiar with slayers, since his sister is one plus he had the slayer dreams, and Twilight left before sunrise during his fight with Buffy, therefore telling me he could be a vampire, which Harth is. Although if it was to be revealed that he is Twilight I don't think it would have much resonance with many readers, but I still believe that this is a reasonable assumption.

Really, Giles/Xander/Dawn/Riley??? Hank?!!?!? Amy and Warren against Buffy, makes sense. Her closest friends killing all slayers? I highly doubt it.

And have I fully resorted to my fangirlness? I completely freaked out when Buffy said she was going to a "meeting", and then returned all happy and dressy. Angel/Spike (hopefully Spike)? Damn, IDW having the Angel rights (and L.A. being completely submerged in hell).

PS - Drusilla as Twilight, perhaps? Just popped into my head, since "Crush" we haven't seen or heard from her, that's way too long, and I doubt she would just let herself get killed. Maybe she's bored out of her mind and decides to destroy all the slayers as a challenge? I honestly cannot think of anyone else with motivation haha. Actually, I know someone who would love nothing more than to kill all these slayers, and this just popped into my head as well, but since (and I hope you all are okay with Angel: After the Fall spoilers for past issues, because here comes a big one) Angel is no longer a vampire, maybe somehow his vampirebeingness/Angelus has materialized into some new form, which therefore would explain Twilight's knowledge of Buffy/slayers, why he hides his identity, why he's killing all these slayers, why he left before sunrise, why he's teasing Buffy in such a way that only Angelus would do rather than most other baddies who'd just attack her without hesitation. What would be a better reveal than to have Angelus's face take up a whole page when his mask finally comes off?
ailiel, if you get a chance (buy, borrow, um...or download in the meantime), you might wanna check out Fray just in case it becomes increasingly important to the story. Also because it's worthwhile, it's arguably the best thing Joss has done in comics so far (well, maybe Sugarshock, heh).

Dawn's 19 already ? They grow up fast. I guess...yeah, if she's 14 (15?) at the start of Season 5, we'd be up to 18 or 19 now. I don't remember an age being mentioned in the comic.

So far we've seen that Dark Horse can use an Angel character for a dream sequence. He can make a visual appearance (Buffy's three-way fantasy--one of the best, most fitting, and at the same time amusing visuals in the comic). Who knows if they had to ask permission if they could do that, or if it's okay as long as the character has little to no lines in the book. Or maybe IDW would be fine with their use as long as it's not being used to hype the book, as long as it's not on the Buffy covers or anything, stealing their thunder. I doubt they'd get too uppity about it though--without Buffy, there'd be no Angel series, they understand that the two properties are (or used to be) heavily intertwined and regardless exist in the same I'd guess that IDW is cool. I bet Dark Horse would be the same if either of the two ensouled vamps had a dream or flashback featuring Buffy.

I'm dying to get this issue. Went to the comic shop to pick up Runaways #30 and the new pre-order Previews catalogue, but my comic shop guy's order hadn't come in yet. Tomorrow, he promised.

It doesn't sound like a whole lot happened, but the one big thing that did (the attack), I'm dying to see. Moline was very good at staging action scenes in Fray.

This is the only time I've really been spoiled for an issue, but I figure if it's gonna happen, the first issue of a new arc is the best place to risk ruining the surprises. After this, no more.
Joss said straight out that he could use any of the characters he wanted, but the only time he would bring one of the major characters over was for something big, and he would use them sparingly. I don't remember when he said it. (See Quotergal's link to a Time article on memory loss on another thread.)
Haven't read mine yet...

Not a single part of me believes it could ever be Xander, Giles could be a possibility though... Fray's brother not sure enough of the fans would recognise him, same reasoning for Hank Summers. Riley is still my best guess, this is going to turn into a "who's the 5th cyclon" will every single character accused!

Maybe's it's future buffy! LOL

PS - assume only slayer HQ is destroyed, there are still many other cells still around the world?
Last textual information we had was that Angel was persona non grata with Buffy -- I can't buy that Joss would have Angel have returned, he and Buffy reconciled, and them seeing each other without establishing any one of those facts.

And Angel or Spike... why the secret? It makes no sense, character-wise, it would be a total plot contrivance for the sake of not spoiling "After the Fall". Don't like it. Whoever she was meeting or why, she felt it necessary to get all sexy and to go in secret. Those can't be trivial details.
Replying to: SmileTime | July 03, 09:15 CET

As Buffy narrates in #1: "there's over five hundred of us now, in ten different squads around the world."

Let's assume that the BHC(Big Honkin' Castle) is a larger squad, say sixty-five to seventy slayers in residence (along with witches).

This means Buffy still has over four hundred slayers, and even if this doesn't send her on a revenge kick, she's going to have a tough time stopping them from taking revenge on whoever seems to be responsible.

The entire Slayers vs Humanity story is set to go off, and it's all Twilight's doing of course!

Speaking of the identity of Twilight:
    -I agree with KingOfCretins that he's not a series character(who hasn't appeared in the comic), it would just be so long since anyone had seen them, kinda pointless.
    -I disagree with KingOfCretins that he could be Satsu, Twilight is clearly male and Satsu hasn't been neglecting her Full Time slayer duties. Which is something Satsu would need to do if she were secretly Twilight.
    -Giles isn't Twilight, because he's being followed around by Faith (who strikes me as a "fool  me  once..." type of person.)
    -We've only seen Kenny once, in a photograph, and we know he has some type of mystical deal.

I came up with that hypothesis almost a year ago and it's still not provable (or disprovable for that matter.)

Whoever Twilight may be he's just proven himself a most dastardly villain, he's turning Slayers and Humans against one another, I wonder if Warren and Amy realise they're being manipulated? What would they do if they found out?

Oh, and, Centaur Dawn arrives. I anticipate more (delectable) awkwardness.

[ edited by The Londinium Sun on 2008-07-03 12:34 ]
Kris, I wouldn't hype yourself up too much for the attack on the castle. It's not an action sequence, it's something that Xander sees from a distance.

But the Buffy/Fray tussle, though only seen briefly here, is exquisite.
Riley, Angel, Spike, etc. None of those make any sense to me. Nor does Harth, since few people know who he is, and this has to be about the pain. Given pain, who could it be that would hurt Buffy most? Well, Giles, for sure. And she and Giles are at odds right now. we have not seen Giles and Twilight in the same place, and who knows what the heck Faith is doing right now. One way out possibility would be Rack, even though last we saw him he was dead. Or Andrew... which might account for Warren. But I still believe it will be Giles, if it is someone we know.

In passing, I think bringing Warren back really sucks. He doesn't deserve it, and to me it is like a thorn in my foot every time I see him. I can think of better people to bring back. :-)

[ edited by Dana5140 on 2008-07-03 15:17 ]

[ edited by Dana5140 on 2008-07-03 15:18 ]
O...M...G!!! I think I am possibly in love with Karl Moline! I feel right now, like I'm cheating on Georges Jeanty but Moline's art is SICK!!! It flows so well and even if the likenesses are a tad off (Kennedy and Vi) it... OMG it's just so good. I think that I actually would've preferred Moline as series artist (season 9 please!!!) It is much less cartoon-y than Georges' work and much more in relation with the mood of the series!!! I just think that Joss should've thought about his decision on artist before the series began, unless Moline was busy at the time!!! Best arc opener yet, and sure to be the best arc yet.

I just hope there is more Moline to come after this arc. Love his Buffy, Xander, Willow and Dawn!!! PERFECT and he doesn't draw a 10 YEAR OLD Buffy and Dawn WOOHOO!!! then, to that meeting Buffy was speaking about? Giles anyone? Maybe she trying to bury the hatchets and move on as to be honest, she kinda needs help from him! I just hope this would happen now, and Scott Allie has already stated that Giles will feature more prominently in the series soon!

I just want a preview for #17 and the issue art for #19! Greedy much? I know but I've not been this excited about an arc since #1 (well I should say for #1)

It is possible that there are still some Slayers left in Scotland. Not everyone may have been in the castle at the time of the missile strike (some like Xander may have been out in the grounds or on a patrol). Also it is possible that some of the slayers in the castle may have been far enough away from the point of impact to have survived.

Regardless, Xander is going to go through some Hard times as it is clear that they took some pretty massive casualties.
Hmm, Satsu sure picked a good time to ask for a promotion/transfer, didn't she? I think that would make Leah and Rowena the only named Slayers left at Central. And I'm guessing Andrew is safe back in Rome, since we didn't see him this issue.

There are all kinds of betrayals. I don't necessarily see one of the Scoobies turning on Buffy equaling the character being written off completely. It could easily be along the lines of Wesley trying to save Baby Conner in AtS. Road to hell paved with etc.

My vote for Twilight is still Ethan Rayne.
Thanks for the update on character usage, NEWJC.

And BENNYBOI91, your paragraph about Moline and Georges, flip Moline with Georges and Georges with Moline in that paragraph and word for word I agree completely. Weird. Well, there is stuff that doesn't make sense if you do that, but you get my point. And did Joss not approve Georges? You make it sound like the artist decision was random.

Also, just a thought. That was a mystical missile, and we haven't seen the result of it yet, only the explosion (green?). There was rubble in the explosion, but still, maybe no one in the castle is dead. Where's Andrew btw?
How much did I love the beginning of the issue mirroring the beginning of Fray? Considering I just read Fray for the first time a couple of weeks ago...lots. (Which, by the way, was completely amazing-why-did-I-never-read-this-before-awesome-want-sequel-yesterday.) Was the end before the beginning? Because it looked like they were on a roof at the end.

If Buffy's dad was Twilight, it'd be a Luke Skywalker/Darth Vader thing. I'm not sure if that makes it less or more likely, geek that Joss is.

Comic Dawn is never not funny.

Not enough Vi! I hope she shows up more in this arc.
I miss Georges too, but the advantage of using the artist who originally drew 'Fray' is that Buffy really is entering Fray's world!
Agreed re: the likenesses, ailiel. I found the new art distracting and kind of awkward...I loved the way it was drawn up to this point – characters’ bodies looked lived in somehow, but in this one it seemed as though their bodies were on display – like a “strike a pose before you deliver the line!” sort of thing that all too often had to do with performing the “ideal” female body... not as bad as Angel AtF #1 was, but still...
You know how it is when you feel like you'll always have a gripe about *something*? ... That's me right now. I know I've had my issues with Georges' depiction of certain characters, but now that I've seen this issue, I TOTALLY miss his work and will (probably, but most likely... not) ever complain about his work again. Hee. I miss perpetually-young lookin' everyone. Although Karl really did spot-on Kennedy and Vi. All that said, I can't remember... is Karl doing the inside artwork for this arc only?
menomegirl korkster; well, again, not having seen "Killer In Me" I'll grant that the portrayal might be reasonably consistent (altho, if Liz Allen knew about thiese comics she'd presumably diasgaree heartily *grin) but I still feel that there's enough outright villains and a "graygirl" might have been more interesting.

KingOfCretins: I guess Buffy playing Abby Ewing would fit the tone of this season. (My apologies if your age or nationality makes that an incomprehnsible reference.)

bob1o KRIS: Well, just because Hank committed repeated absence of body in the girls' lives doesn't necessarily mean those checks stopped. Judges, y'know. (Heck they say California is always ahead of the other states, and my state has this neat automatic deduction plan that eliminates the bookkeeping, so I'd imagine CA would've had that long before.)
And yeah, technically this should be Season 9, I've been griping about that.
The time travel is clearly the same mechanism as in Get It Done, but it's not the same thing. It's what we would have seen from the exchange demon's location. Buffy didn't jump in, she was, for lack of a better term, exchange-demoned. Who did that, and where and when?

My quibbles about season 8 are evaporating from my mind, btw. This one rawked.
DaddyCatALSO said:
if Liz Allen knew about thiese comics she'd presumably diasgaree heartily

Well, here's what she had to say in SlayAlive's interview in December:
Have you been reading Season Eight? If so, what do you think about how certain characters are involved in it?

I was recently shown one of the copies. I think it's awesome. I wish I got to perform that role on the tv show. That would have been a blast.

ETA: In July actually, now that I read the first paragraph.

[ edited by SharkyBoredNow on 2008-07-03 21:11 ]
Well I very much prefer Moline to Jeanty. I've never liked Jeanty's cartoony style. Moline doesn't have the likenesses down perfectly, but likenesses aren't as important to me as dynamic action scenes and characters who look the age they are supposed to be.
To be clear, I never said Satsu could be Twilight, just that she could be the traitor. I probably jumbled some pronouns. People who insist that Twilight might not be male make my teeth itch.

I'm saying I'd prefer Satsu be the traitor to a Scooby. It would still fit the parameters, plus, she did manage to have Buffy... distracted when the scythe was stolen, and to have removed herself from the BPR before it was destroyed.

I can't figure anything other than something tawdry behind Buffy's meeting. Even if it *was* business, she apparently feels it necessary to employ her feminine wiles for the other party's benefit. The two basic concepts working in that "meeting" are "sexy" and "secret". Screwing around with Riley (who has at least been mentioned and we know is, by the nature of the character, *relevant* this season) or Oz (who we know is coming back) are the only two purely personal meetings that would encourage Buffy to go both sexy and secretive. I kinda am torn whether I want it that simple or not -- mostly because the Buffy/Xander 'shipper in me is exasperated that they could bring other genders or old characters off the bench for Buffy 'shipping before giving Xander some love. But in fairness, I do wonder whether or not Buffy and Oz would work as a couple, odd though they might be.
Excellent issue! Joss had me with "if you haven't ordered Chinese in Scotland, you haven't lived" and it got only better and edgier from there. Lots of twists in here, great Buffy (yeah, finally she's dressing up and whom was she seeing, eh?), kickass Willow and I even enjoyed Kennedy here.
Donnie was great too, but is she going to run around with her arms crossed over her chest, or will she get a T-Shirt or something? Centaur in a T-shirt, that would be something.
Xander was holding up well after Renee's death, but this disaster might yet break him...

Nevertheless, I'm not sorry to see the castle go. Didn't see any point in it at all, and that's what happens when someone puts all eggs into one basket, and plays Dr.Evil. And interesting point about mystical rocket not killing the Slayers but enchanting them somehow. Maybe they are not dead.

Also I love the artist! I liked his art the most of the four artists we saw so far, it's great we'll see a whole arc with him. Very dynamic, expressive, lots of details, love everyone's depiction and that they looked like adults.
Nothing more to say that hasn't been said, but the mention of Ethan Rayne being Twilight made me smile. I don't think so... but, really, I am still aching on how he died! And Giles was nowhere in sight! And did anyone (Buffy) even find a way to tell him?

Ugh. Just pissed. Poor Xan. He's trying to deal, and now he's left with a rubble full of blown up slayers. And Buffy has been sucked/switched into another timeline (*bounce* /end crazy sleep-deprived theory).

Xander lost the girls he's in charge of AND the girl that's in charge, period. Oh, and his almost girlfriend. Darn. A tough week for Xander Harris (has it been a week?)

I think some silent Oz shoulder to lean it would be a nice comfort *nods* dude need a man. ;)
I remember really liking the art in Fray but Moline felt a little off here. Unlike the other two guest artists on the book he’s having to follow Jeanty onto his own territory – I suspect things will improve when the action moves to Hadyn. Also looking back at Fray it was a very action/drama driven story – there wasn’t a great deal of people sitting around chewing the fat (literally in the case of the carry out cuisine) so the nuance and humour that this story requires were never really needed. He draws Xander and Dawn well, Willow sometimes but Buffy too often resembles an overexcitable wide mouthed frog. Albeit a well-dressed overexcitable wide mouthed frog.

Previously I’ve not been much interested in speculation about Twilight’s identity but am more than a little intrigued by newcj’s suggestion that it might be Harth. In Fray Melaka inherited the Slayer strength while her twin got the dreams and the connection to the line. I have been hoping that the whole dreamspace idea might crop up again so bringing in Harth as a time-traveled Twilight would make that very possible and also explain Twilight’s knowledge of Buffy’s moves and moods. He’d also have a very direct motivation for wanting to end 21st century magic – that happening is part of his timeline, if it doesn’t he won’t. Plus technology – if they can make a car fly in the future why not a man(pire). Moreover, on a meta level Twilight is nothing if not a classic comic book villain he has a globally insane ambition that I just can’t see any of the TV series candidates aspiring too. Warren called himself a super villain but his big plan never amounted to much more than robbing a few banks. Riley might not like magic but I can’t see him thinking the best way to put a stop to it would involve flying around in a cape and tights. Harth is literally a comic book villain already and a good one. The main (meta) reason for it not being him is lack of audience recognition but if, as seems likely, he were to turn up in the next few issues of this arc that would all change.
Okay, I just gotta say: I think Buffy was meeting up with Parker and needed to dress up in order to make him regret the past (because Parker will always figure largely as the 'one who got away'). It does leave her a little bit inappropriately dressed for Fray's world though, doesn't it?
I was thinking that same thing, embers. Glad you said it first, though!
Is anyone else, like me, hoping against all hope that perhaps all of the Slayers were maybe outside when the missile struck? Also...what about poor little Andrew?
SharkyBoredNow; I could defend myself and say perhaps she didn't read it in detail and so missed how deadly the zombie attack was for some of the Slayers, which was kinda-sorta zoomed over quickly in the comic.
However, I'll just say I made a boo-boo and, if I were wearing a cowboy aht I'd pull the sides of the brim down like a local kiddie show host used to do when she said that.

I was just going by a Buffy magazine interview where she said she always saw Amy as more misunderstood than really evil. I keep telling myself I should check out SLayALive but never think to find it *oops.

As to the identity of the traitor and of Twilight himself, I'm willing to stay clueless until it's revealed. Since I seem to have no other choice.

Riker: Well, I could get behind that thought for the Slayers. Personally, Andrew I'd be willing to put in the path of any blasts available.

[ edited by DaddyCatALSO on 2008-07-04 00:14 ]
I was not looking forward to this issue. Spoilers about the time-travel aspect and centaur Dawn had put me off my feed - too gimmicky, thought I, especially after Mecha-Dawn. So I started the comic in a pissy frame of mind.

After the first reading, I thought it was okay. Not as bad as I thought it would be. The time travel turned out to be a variation on the way it's been presented previously, as people have pointed out. And horsy Dawn actually worked better for me than Mecha Dawn.

I read the comic again a couple of more times and liked it better each time. It's interesting. I'm having the same initially negative reactions to a few of the comic issues as I did to some of the later Buffy seasons. Except this time, I'm able to re-view immediately, so I'm revising my impressions more quickly.

A couple of points. Nobody has remarked on how Buffy knew about Snake Woman. Isn't that kind of a big deal, or am I missing something? Could Buffy know her? Is the phone-call related to that?

Also, I don't know why Buffy isn't considered more often as the possible betrayer, too, even if it's probably inadvertent. After all. she's making secret phone-calls, and meeting someone, so why not consider her? Or, since she mentioned to Willow they have some legitimate funding, maybe Twilight's inside person is the one supplying the funding, and possibly getting info from Buffy.

I wanted more grief from Xander in this issue than we got, but it was only a nascent romance, so I'll grudgingly admit that his way of dealing with it is understandable. But less understandable is what's going on with Willow. She's moved from opposition to Buffy's stealing to mild teasing, and from keeping Kennedy away from Buffy to sending Kennedy into a dangerous operation directly tied to Buffy. And, no surprise to me, or Willow I'd bet, alpha- female Kennedy immediately takes over control of the operation from Vi. How did Willow get from there to here?

[ edited by shambleau on 2008-07-04 04:10 ]
shambleau, Buffy saw the vision of Willow coiled up (hehheh...) with the snake-goddess in issue #10 - the same place where Willow found out about their "benefactor with deep pockets."
Okay, yeah. But it still seems like a bit of a leap for Buffy to guess that based on a vision from weeks or months ago. Intuitive, our Buffster.
Well, Buffy's been kicked around as the traitor, but we have no proof (of anything really). I dunno; I guess we're just circling around until something sticks.

As for Willow being "floppy", maybe Willow's upset because she can't stop her future actions (to her knowledge). She knows that Kennedy is placed into danger when it comes to Buffy, yet, in the heat of the moment, that's exactly who should go after Buffy. ?? Just trying something.

And, continuing to show disappointment/scolding when Buffy talks about investors isn't a route to take to be on your friend's side. Willow said her piece, Buffy knows how she feels, and if Buffy changes (unlikely), great. What's done is done- that's just Buffy.
Satsu can't be Twilight because Satsu and Buffy got their asses simultaneously kicked by Twilight.

I don't think Satsu is the traitor because the betrayal is to come from the closest source...and Satsu isn't the closest to Buffy. Besides, such a plot twist would only piss off a minority of people for reasons that have nothing to do with the story. If Joss wants to the story to hurt he'll aim for what hurts the majority.

That said, I have no idea who Twilight is or who will betray Buffy. Maybe Buffy will betray herself. It doesn't get closer than that. Or Dawn...we don't know what she's gonna turn into next. Awhile ago I thought Willow...based on her dialogue about not wanting Kennedy around Buffy...she might be put into a position of having to choose to save Kennedy or Buffy and betrays Buffy that way. Now Xander could be in the same position 'cause he's had enough of their SOs getting killed.

Harth as Twilight seems to make good sense...almost too good sense. And if it is him, then the mask kept us all from asking "How the hell is he in this timeline?" for months. Though there seems to be little point in him hiding his identity from everyone in the story.
Has anybody noticed the continuity with the time anomaly shown in Angel After The Fall #4?

Um... spider?

This issue was perfection.
I figured out who Twilight is! It's the final cylon!
hayes62, where did you get the notion that Riley didn't like magic? I've seen several people say this and I don't know where that comes from. I've been re-watching Btvs and I'm near the end of S5 and not once does Riley indicate such a thing, by word or deed.

KingofCretins, so basically, you'd prefer that Twilight be AnybodyButXander?
Yeah, I never got the no-magic vibe off of Riley. Off of Conner, definitely. Not Riley tho...

I'll chime in on the artist count and say that I prefer Moline as a comic reader. The likenesses may not be as close, but they're good enough, and the art works well. Of course, I always did like the exaggerated stuff (Little Monsters arc way back was one of my favorites, art-wise).
KingOfCretins wrote:

To be clear, I never said Satsu could be Twilight, just that she could be the traitor. I probably jumbled some pronouns. People who insist that Twilight might not be male make my teeth itch.

Apologies for misinterpreting, and misrepresenting your opinion. I also get annoyed when people ignore logic.

I still want to disagree with you some more though:
I can't figure anything other than something tawdry behind Buffy's meeting. Even if it *was* business, she apparently feels it necessary to employ her feminine wiles for the other party's benefit. The two basic concepts working in that "meeting" are "sexy" and "secret". Screwing around with Riley (who has at least been mentioned and we know is, by the nature of the character, *relevant* this season) or Oz (who we know is coming back) are the only two purely personal meetings that would encourage Buffy to go both sexy and secretive.

I'm going to go in a totally different direction, Buffy's meeting someone new, and she's trying to keep the entire leader of a secret supernatural army thing under wraps. This way, pain is still forthcoming, but it won't be a rehash of old pain (unless the story mirrors "Never Kill A Boy On The First Date" too much.)

"...and next on our all day countdown of Buffy's Top Traumas: My friends don't understand me, but I keep singing voted number three by you, our listeners."
Did anyone else get some of the major revelations in the final two pages of the issue?

1. The translation of what Fray says to Buffy (which took me a couple days to figure out) is: "You think you can fool me with an amateur's glamor of a Slayer who's been dead for more than two centuries?"

OK, for one, that's a major departure from where we last saw Fray in her own serial. She knew nothing about slayers, now she can recognize Buffy and she knows when she passed? She probably knows the fate of Buffy's other slayers and can shed light on Twilight and the death of magic.

2. Who's that monkey in the background? Oh, wait, that's...

Yup, obviously Fray learned a lot about the Slayers in that apartment building with the scythe inscribed on the floor, which she found in the serial "Tales of the Slayers." The monkey must also have some relevance, since he grabbed the scythe, led her to the apartment and has somehow remained in the slayer's good graces enough to stick around in some vague sidekick capacity.

I believe the method Buffy made it to the future ties directly to the episode "Get It Done," but obviously Fray is the one who cast the spell. Maybe she found the "slayer emergency kit?" I'm not certain, it's possible, but the exchange isn't quite right. Also, aren't demons supposed to be gone in Fray's world? I know vampires still lurk about, but I seem to remember Urkon saying something about both magics and demons being eradicated. Perhaps Fray had to find a demon in order to make this exchange?

#1. I thought that Fray started out knowing nothing about any other slayers, but later got to read up on the saved notebooks about past slayers in that secret library (I do need to reread my 'Fray'). I thought that Fray would also know that the Slayers' Scythe is a one and only deal, so seeing someone else with slayer strength and carrying the scythe would definitely be a surprise that would lead her to suspect a glamour. Even if she didn't specifically know of Buffy, she did know that ALL slayers had been extinct for 200 years!

#2 Yeah, I'll need to reread Fray since I got nothing about the monkey.... But I think it is very possible that the 'emergency' kit survived. And the absence of demons is not 100% since the first one to 'help' Fray was a demon, and her under-water employer was demon like.... So I'm not sure where this one came from, but clearly someone thought it would be useful in an exchange....

It is all very cool and I'm going to start rereading my Fray right now!
embers - the monkey is a character in the Fray story that ends the "Tales of the Slayers" collection it steals the Scythe and leads her to the library where she reads about the other Slayers.

menomengirl - I said Riley *may* not like magic. Personally I don't think he's ever expressed any opinion on it beyond bemusement but for those who think he's Twilight (and I don't) it must be the case that he thinks magic is a bad thing because Twilight wants to get rid of it. It's kind of circular.
Ah haven't read the Fray "Tales of the Slayers" - anyone think that will be important?
Gold from beginning to end, laughing out loud through the whole thing, Buffy wanting to be New Yorky, neigh etc. etc. :)
I like the idea of Harth as Twilight (it began to occur to me as I was reading people's comments). I've always taken it that Twilight and the betrayer are not one and the same, so I don't have a problem with Harth not being someone people who haven't read Fray would recognise. But there does still need to be a betrayal from somebody close, whether or not intentional. Xander and Giles are being set up as key candidates for this, so I'd probably go with Dawn, at this moment. But as long as it's done well, and does have resonance and come out of believable character development, I don't mind too much who it is. But I don't think Satsu works. It surely has to be someone who's been around before S8.

ETA: And as I'd just re-read Fray, I particularly enjoyed the use of the same opening words. And I like the artwork, and think using the Fray team for the crossover was a great idea.

[ edited by Kiddo on 2008-07-04 16:59 ]
It's like a treasure hunt! Find the monkey in the canonocity! That's pretty cool. Even if no one agrees on whether or not these things should be canon, the fact that the stories are out there and are left for us to make the connections is really cool.

I don't know who the betrayer is and I don't really want to speculate on it because it kinda grosses me out to suspect just about anyone. But I will agree with Kiddo, the betrayer and Twilight are not one and the same. I would think a betrayer who was out to destroy everything Buffy stands for would use even more personal means of attack than a dirty missile on the Slayer HQ.

That said, I agree that Harth is looking to be the most likely candidate for Twilight. It would make sense that he would want to destroy magic because it would set things up so that he can be born, vamped, and rise to power among the lurks. What Buffyfantic said way up at the top of the page about Dove and Hawk or whoever, would definitely lend some serious cred to this theory.
Did anyone pick up on Warren calling Twilight "copperhead"? Is this a clue, or was Warren referring to that stripey thing on Twilight's hood?

Plus, yay! new member and first post!
Still haven't got my copy yet!! But reading from the post's it will be worth the wait!! YAY
First off, good good issue. Far less controversy and buckets more intrigue. I just want to pose a few minor ideas but before I do let me say that this is my first entry to the Whedonesque boards, and I've been waiting for this for a long time. KingOfCretins, Newcj, I salute you both.

That being said, have we considered that the 'betrayal' may not in fact be the identity of Twilight himself? I think Satsu being evil would definitely bring the pain, but as someone pointed out, remember that TWILIGHT broke Satsu's face in a few issues back. Just the same, other good points have been made that someone close to them means someone close to all of them, not just Buffy. (Insert the dozen or so possibilities here) I'm hoping for it to be Satsu, because I'm tired of feeling bad for her because Buffy used her.

My only other issue is a growing concern with Amy. Yeah we saw some darkness out of her before, but this is taking it to a whole new extent, and I'm not sure there's really motivation for her to be so completely frick'n evil. Warren on the other hand is fast becoming one of my favorite Buffy villains if for no other reason than I hate him so much. He's human, and he's a cold blooded, male chauvinistic, killer. If that doesn't give you the creeps, I don't know what will.

Just to pull an idea out of left field (or right field...which ever field these sorts of things are commonly stored on) What Buffyverse villain have we seen pull different types of baddies together for a coming apocalypse. What villain had military knowledge and beat Buffy up and down every time they fought until Buffy used Slayer Magic to kill him? Yeah....the other 'Finn' brother...Just a thought. (The kind where on the off chance it is him I get to come back with pockets full of I-Told-You-So's)
Firnatine, congratulations on your first post, this thread is definitely worthy. I wanted to comment on Amy because I do think that her being 'so frick'n evil' is the logical result (within our Buffyverse) of her using so much dark magic. We saw in Willow that some dark magic leads to more dark magic, Giles had warned her about that from the beginning. So it made perfect sense to me that Amy, who was never as powerful as Willow from the start, had just been slowly but steadily sliding downhill without any good friends to save her.

That is an interesting theory about what's-his-name, but that is the problem with using that guy, no one really remembers or care about whatever happened to him.
Two things:

A) Anyone notice Leah carrying a holster with what seems like a gun in it? I'm not sure what to make of it, and think, with Leah seemingly dead and so it never being mentioned again, it's probably just Moline liking drawing holsters, but it's a bit odd.

B) As basuraboi3 says, Mel knows who Buffy is on the roof. That's weird. How does she know this? I'm sure it'll be revealed next week, but it's odd. Why should she, and why should she seem to be expecting a magical transformation.

P.S. Twilight is so Riley.
Melaka might not have been expecting a magical transformation, but she may've learned enough about demons at this point (maybe they're seriously on the rise again in the future) that she's familiar with some of them being able to put on a "glam".

They already used Adam as a resurrected villain in the non-canon Dark Horse Buffy comics. I have no idea if Joss read all those, knows the plotlines, and if he does, whether he would take some cues from them as to what to avoid repeating in Season 8. I kinda hope he's aware of 'em. Despite many of them not being all that well-written (it really depended on which writer and whether they had a good idea, there was no breakout star IMO), I still don't wanna be reading something similar in Season 8.

It wasn't the best storyline ever (I think they even brought back "The Origin" version of Pike, blue-haired and not Luke Perry-looking), but the reveal of Adam did surprise me at the time (and he had evolved or augmented himself or something--he had demon wings). I can't remember if his being brought back made sense or seemed like all that great of an idea (better was Jane Espenson's summer-between-Season-3-and-4 Faith mini-series "The Haunted", where it made sense that there was a little bit of The Mayor's spirit/essence left without anyone knowing about it and then he was put down for good and completely destroyed).

Heh, "magic missile".

[ edited by Kris on 2008-07-04 20:18 ]
Yay first post, I've been lurking for awhile.

Anyways I was wondering about if the Mayor could be Twilight. For some reason the mask reminds me of an old injury and the Mayor was sliced in half once. Wouldn't that be funny if he made it out of Sunnydale. :p

Also, not really OT, but for anyone who has seen PREVIEWS (the big catalogue that can be bought at comic book stores), it says that there are posters that can be bought as 'retailer incentives' for this story arc. The first three are iirc are Willow/Kennedy, Buffy, Fray, and there's a 4th one it shows that comes with Issue #19. One of them is Harth, with someone else...

IMO it looks like
MH, that's more than likely Erin, Mel's sister. She might just be there for show, as they often do on comic book covers, to complete the image of Buffy's world (left side of the four covers) beside Fray's (right side). Or maybe Joss is using her in this arc. With three issues left, I suppose it's possible to feature more of the Fray supporting cast (I believe it could just be Fray in this though, otherwise it takes away from Scooby facetime and Fray's supporting cast can be explored in her next arc).
Heh, my bad, you're right. I guess I missed it and was hoping for a really big twist. :P
Welcome, Firnatine.

P.S. Twilight is so Riley.

Sparticus | July 04, 19:04 CET

Hee hee

Not having read the issue, I am going by the description here. However, I was never high on the idea of grounded, solid Riley as floating magical Twilight and it seems more and more unlikely that Twilight would ever be Riley the more I hear. He is chivalrous. Would Riley Finn try to kill a bunch of girls and women? A lot would have had to happen to Riley to put him in that place. I just don't see it.

BTW, I'm liking this commenting without having read it. It is a lot more fun this way. ;-)
Hey, this my first post, so... Hey!

The thing about Twilight that always seemed odd to me was this one instance in "A Beautiful Sunset" where he is giving his plan of destruction and doom and then stops, scratches his very human neck, and says, "Sorry, itchy neck."

This is clearly insight into who he is, showing at least that he is human, and that from time to time, although Buffy cannot hurt him (this isn't to say that no one can) he does get itchy. Maybe this supports the painful possibility of it being Xander, but, I dunno. I really hope not. That one would hurt, a lot.
I know this comment was further up on the page, but Nata, Dawn got a shirt this very issue. ;-)

I don't think it's weird that Mel recognizes Buffy. She read those books about the Slayers in her "Tales" story, and who's to say there weren't illustrations or descriptions of likeness or something?
Streetartist, I was thinking about that earlier, and thinking that the line doesn't sound Giles-y at all, as far as Twilight speculation goes...
Regarding Buffy's Meeting...

Robin Wood?

By the way, does anyone else laugh when they see skinless Warren? Or do I just have a sick sense of humor?
Cool. My first post. So much has been said already, but here's a thought that recently occured to me regarding the identity of Twilight. Could be a Wizard Of Oz type of deal: Big Scary...with a little old man behind the curtain pulling the strings. Twilight, as we have seen him, could be a cyborg thingie, controlled by anybody from afar. So, as far as his appearance goes, skin color, gender, size, dialect...all of that wouldn't matter when trying to discern who he might be when in fact he is really just a little old man behind a curtain...or little old Satsu, if that's your preference.
Then again...he's probably just some guy in a mask we have never even met. I'm just happy to be part of Whedonesque finally! Love you guys...night!
Getting back late and way off the main page, but

Okay, I just gotta say: I think Buffy was meeting up with Parker and needed to dress up in order to make him regret the past (because Parker will always figure largely as the 'one who got away').

No. Noooo! Some of us might, but not Buffy. I need some little things left.

I'm still not seeing it discussed who did the time travel mojo on Buffy. Twilight doesn't make any sense for that, even if he's a future version if one of the Scoobies, which I hope not.
but for those who think he's Twilight (and I don't) it must be the case that he thinks magic is a bad thing because Twilight wants to get rid of it. It's kind of circular.

Uh huh, I get that but such a thing would be completely out of character for Riley.
I'm still not seeing it discussed who did the time travel mojo on Buffy.

Someone either made a temporal anomaly or it just occured. So, it doesn't necessarily mean it was done to Buffy, but rather she could've been in the right place at the right time of a ripple.

The question is where in the timeline is the origin of the anomaly?
If we assume that Willow's graph represents:

S.7 S.8 Fray

Then that means someone in Fray's time didn't create the anomaly with the shadow thingy. Someone else did between S.8 and Fray. That person could be Twilight, a future version of a present character or the future offspring of a present character. Buffy falling into Fray's time may have been accidental.

On the other hand if the graph represents this:

S.7 S.8 Fray

Then...that's different. Fray or Harth could've made it. If Twilight is from the future, then either way it could be someone who discovered the origin or a ripple at any point between the outer ripples.

Oh, and it could also mean that demons and magic are going through the anomaly into Fray's time.

[ edited by GrrrlRomeo on 2008-07-05 19:21 ]
Has it been speculated that maybe "Twilight" is Buffy herself,maybe from the future or a clone. I know it's cliche' but all signs are pointing to that being the fact. Or maybe I'm just tossing this out there maybe some how a combination of everyone,(Buffy/Xander/Willow/Giles) like in the episode Primeval. Someone could have created a superbeing with all attributes from them like Buffy stength,Willow's magic,Xander's military knowledge and Giles super-brain. I know how far-fetched this might be but you never know. Also just joind so a warm and fuzzy greeting to all. Love this site and please be gentle with the shredding my post apart.
all signs are pointing to that being the fact

Except for Twilight having man parts.
I prefer Georges to Karl Moline in the world of season 8, but I feel Karl Moline is excellent in Fray's world. I disagree that Jeanty's art is more cartoony than Moline's. Was I the only person to notice that in Fray and this issue, peoples' mouths tend to open much to wide? Just a little thing.

Also, as to the Amy being too evil thing, I also feel that, along with her extensive use of dark magic, her time in the destroyed Sunnydale must also be taken into account. She was trapped down there and most likely went pretty insane, accounting for her warped mental state that was already evident in seasons six and seven, and to a lesser extent, season two.

Anyway, I've been lurking here for nigh on a year and a half, and finally caught a membership date. Excited to finally be able to share my thoughts with you all!
So, it doesn't necessarily mean it was done to Buffy, but rather she could've been in the right place at the right time of a ripple.

True, if you assume that time travel mojo in the Buffyverse always has the exchange of one being for another. But I thought it was specifically a callback to Get It Done, seen from the reverse perspective (the one done to rather than the one doing). Guess we'll see.
GrrlRomeo, your post has inspired me to make a suggestion for a third option.

S.7 S.8 Fray

Perhaps the ripples in time are actually coming back from the time travel event: Buffy switching places with that monster.

I've depicted ripples coming from both sides of the event: Fray's time and Season 8, since it occurred (from an imaginary point outside time) in both times simultaneously. This makes my head spin a little more than usual, but Mr. Whedon tends not to go too deeply into these aspects of any given story.

I think Joss does put a lot of thought into having consistent explanations behind things, particularly monsters.

Spoilers for Fray, although the upcoming storyline may spoil a lot more of Fray than this:

So what exactly did get sent back in time in exchange for Buffy?
In Fray's time, the general public are aware of "Radies;" people who've been "mutated by the sun's radiation," Fray even works for one called Gunther.

Have demons and magic really been killed off by Fray's time?
Or have they simply devised a way of hiding in plain sight?

The guy who told Melaka all about "the death of magic" turned out to be deceiving her from page one, his grand plan involved preparing for the arrival of some very disgusting extradimensional demons.

I see three options:

  1. The thing that came back in time when Buffy went forward in time was a Radie (rady?) which is totally normal for Fray's time.
  2. It was a demon, one of a few that have started making their way into the world, possibly as part of Harth's current scheme.
  3. Urkonn was lying the whole time, or was himself unaware that there were still Demons On Earth!

By the way, does anyone else laugh when they see skinless Warren? Or do I just have a sick sense of humor?

Warren's just so wrapped up in his own genius, that he's completely unaware of how ridiculous he looks in nothing but a labcoat. (eww...just realized that he's technically naked all the time...ewww).

[ edited by The Londinium Sun on 2008-07-06 09:06 ]

[ edited by The Londinium Sun on 2008-07-06 09:08 ]
Where to start?

It felt like so much happened in this issue, even with the beginning taking place after everything which followed (an appropriate open to this time-looping adventure). Joss really put the pedal to the metal on his (full) return. The Buffy/Xander/Willow conversation was great, with just the right addressing of Xander’s grief. Buffy in NYC was fun, and it was very nice to see Vi again – and even Kennedy. (Well, I shouldn’t be that surprised, as I grew to kind of like her – though I still almost voted for her as a villain in a survey because of her loathsomeness in “Get It Done”.)

And finally a reappearance by Amy and Warren (yeesh, get some pants, dude). Giles_314 – I concur with your thinking on Amy; and, btw, welcome to the ‘esque! That missle… were the runes, candles, and etc. just to get past the castle’s magical and tech defenses, or could they have served, as also wondered about above, to have done sonething to the inhabitants other than just blow them up? (The Londinium Sun speculated on the number of people in the castle. While the info on the inside of the covers of issues 2-4 only said that there were “a passel of Slayers” there, the version in issues #10-11 specified “over one hundred”. [I wonder if the info/introduction pages are included with the TPBs?] So, we could be looking at a loss of a fifth or more of the active/affiliated chosen ones – plus the house mystics… Would Joss kill off so many? Guess we’ll see.)

And, in my least favorite development – no more Giant Dawn! Oh well, at least she got in a Godzilla-moment first (thanks, Drew!). (Could she change back at some point?) So – a centaur, hm? Wow – something that apparently was floating out there which this site actually didn’t spoil me for! (Really, some have occasionally been a little careless about bringing info from these months-ahead spoiler threads out of those threads without spoiler text.) Despite my enjoyment of giant - and powerful – Dawn, this could be interesting, as well, and has already led to one moment with Xander I’ll discuss later. (Oh, btw, as Dawn is a college student [well, was], she could still be eligible for child support – or, her mother could still receive it, if she were still alive. As her guardian, I guess Buffy could have received it – for maintaining the student’s permanent residence expenses, etc. – if Hank hasn’t disappeared, and assuming Joyce sought any support – hm – if the monks created the awarding of child support for Dawn during the divorce. Wow, this ended up being a complicated reply to a little side idea from upthread.)

Oh, and the art: I wasn’t really familiar with Moline’s work, since I haven’t been able to read Fray (it seems like it would have been a very good idea for Dark Horse to re-release the TPB prior to or at least concurrent with this issue). But, I generally liked it and thought it worked well – in fact, it was a while into the issue before I even remembered that there was supposed to be a different penciler for this arc. I think that Andy Owens and Michelle Madsen (the inker and colorist) probably deserve credit for smoothing over the transition – this issue’s art felt much, much (much) less jarringly different than issue #10’s.

Okay, theory time. First, about the “traitor”. Robin the minder spoke of “Betrayal. The closest, the most unexpected,” – which could be referring to Twilight’s “inside man” or to some other form of betrayal, whether deliberate or unknowing. Or, could even refer to Twilight him(?)self, though I’ve assumed not. I noticed something looking at that issue, #10, which may be a clue – or more likely, me just reading way too far into things.

And, Twilight. This “Harth” theory sounds somewhat plausable. As I mentioned above, I haven’t read Fray – but this current arc could do enough to set up the character, if Joss is going in that direction, to sufficiently inform those of us who haven’t read that series. After all, it wasn’t until a while after the TV series had concluded and left the air that I had any idea that the Slayer Scythe had ever appeared anywhere before those last episodes, and that worked out just fine.

But, I have had my own idea for a while now, which I still don’t think I’ve seen suggested. I’ve got a theory – that it’s a demon. A dancing demon. No, something isn’t right there. …No, actually -

One last thing in this issue which I’m surprised nobody has picked up on – Xander saying to Dawn, “Are you kidding? Dawn… you really don’t know how awesome you look?” Come on! I’ve been waiting for this since the end of “Potential”! I can’t be the only “Dander” out here? (Hey, it’s either that or “Xawn”; and that’s both hard to pronounce and too much like an old Billy Corgan band.) With Xander being the one who’s been looking out for her this whole season, trying to connect her with Buffy, getting her wardrobe giant-sized and getting her to open up about what happened with Kenny; and the look on Dawn’s face when he tells her that she looks awesome? …And then Xander goes on to talk about how cool it is to be a centaur, and implies that she’s whining… [Btw, I think some of the “whiny” comments about Dawn are Joss’ reaction to what some fans have said about her – putting it into the story and giving Dawn a chance to disprove it.] And, he’s just getting over another loss, which has no doubt also brought the hurt of Anya’s death up anew. (By the way, I just re-watched “Chosen” – every time I see it, Nicholas Brendon seems even more upset as he’s saying the “That’s my girl” line to Andrew.) Yeah, I think I may see where this is going. There may be an attraction there; but (at least for now?), it’s one-sided. Sorry, Dawn.

[ edited by LKW on 2008-07-06 17:49 ]
Dawnder? Xandawn? I like it better than Buffy and Xander getting together.
Maybe we should just concentrate on relationship and story stuff instead of what is probably Joss's first attempt at a quasi-mathematical expression of his mythology, since that's probably a mislead, anyway, and if the graphs continue, I will have to point out some discouraging things about trying to represent time that way, even in this our presumably not-magic world.

I'm more interested in the story (finally!).
Finally I have my issue!! It's awesome, Dawn as a centaur soooo cute!! Whats with Fray actually knowing what Buffy looked like because she didn't have the dreams and I don't remember her seeing a photo of Buffy!! Poor Xander it's not his lucky day at the moment, give the poor guy a break!! Warren and Amy finally back in the mix was nice to see I just wish they would hurry up and die already!
Great issue. Nice to see Fray again...albeit briefly. I'm so looking forward to the upcoming issues, it's gonna be ROCKETSHIP!
As for the marcie being twighlight theory: Twighlight has a chin that's visible. And quite masculine. I'd sooner say it's some sort of reincarnation of Caleb ('cause of the crotch thing), but it's probably not.
And Dawnwise, I was totally right about the three phases thing!
Also, poor, poor Xander.
And...nice to see Kennedy being a character. *Dodges rocks.* The whole Willow thing and the Buffy thing and the New York thing and all that stuff was neat too.
So, yeah, great issue. Want more.
Gazzy, from what I have gathered, Fray was in an issue of Tales of the Slayers in which she was lead by a demon into a library filled with information about the slayers before her. No doubt Buffy's story was one she became familiar with, and there was most likely a drawing or possibly a photograph.
I was idly ruminating on how dark Buffy was getting as the comic issues progress, and thinking, "Great! Joss is starting to bring the pain. I love it! I actually felt bad when Renee was brutally murdered. Like I did when the nameless Buffy substitute died horribly. And now all the slayers in the castle, too. Yay!"

And that brought me up short. Not because I thought I was rejoicing over the deaths of some brave young women, because I wasn't. I just suddenly realized how many of them there were.

Then I realized how many had died since the beginning of S7. Slaughtered potentials, slayers cut to pieces fighting the ubervamps, and, in the comics, slayers like Aiko, the nameless slayer Gigi killed, even Gigi herself, not to mention the slayers lost to the Scottish zombies and the Japanese vamps.

There have been discussions about how more women have died on Buffy than men, but those discussions have always centered on the main characters. But when you add in the deaths of the last two seasons, the number of dead young women is even more striking.

Yes, most of them died in battle, not as helpless victims, and female warriors are the stock-in-trade of the Buffyverse. Who else is going to die? But still, that means we've gotten image after image of young women dying in various awful ways, when Joss specifically started Buffy to counter that cultural and media emphasis. Does the fact that they're fighting back outweigh the cumulative impact of so many brutal deaths? I'd still say yeah, but it actually gave me pause when I thought about it.

And of course, that might even be the point that Joss is working toward. In an endless war, by having more slayers, you may lessen the psychological and physical burden that any one slayer has to bear, but you're increasing the death rate of young women. If there were no demons to fight, there would be no war. Thus, the end of magic might be something that Buffy will end up seeing as a good thing.

Whether Willow will agree is the question. If Joss is going that way, we could end up with the scoobies opposing each other (with Twilight's encouragement) without anyone going evil, which has already been done. A plot like that might keep some part of the fandom from deserting because they feel their favorite scooby's character is being trashed, too.

[ edited by shambleau on 2008-07-08 22:13 ]

[ edited by shambleau on 2008-07-08 22:14 ]
There have been a lot of deaths, especially now with the missile->castle. I've seen a lot of "poor Xander"s but I think "poor slayers" is more appropriate. Most of them are nameless and faceless, but I'd imagine they have families somewhere. It's kind of sad that we'll never think much of them, but I guess that point was made in #5. I think we're really seeing the consequences of the Slayer power, and it's never pretty.
Why is it the result of the slayer power? Would demons stop killing if there were no slayers to fight them? I don't think so. Potentials were getting killed before they all became slayers, they just did not have as much of a chance to defend themselves or others.
newcj, it's been established that slayer power is magical, so the end of demons and magic would end slayers too, per se, but not as their human selves. Great post, shambleau.
I finally got to read this issue and I was both impressed and disappointed, which seems to be all I can say about both comics at present.

But I do want expand on something I said in a comment to beer_good_foamy's reviews of the currant issues.

I thought the artwork on Kennedy's character was excellent. It was sexy and alluring without a gratuitous show of skin or unnatural body postures. I thought there was just a smidgen of resembalance to Ms. Lymon and that made it feel more like an original character to me.

So, for the first time in the history of these comics I'm viewing a character that I percieve as having actual depth-and just for the record, I couldn't stand Kennedy on Btvs. I wish that much attention was given to every character. That kind of artistry is what I call talent.

Edited to add: Very interesting post, shambleau. I hadn't given that any thought. Hmm.

[ edited by menomegirl on 2008-07-09 12:17 ]
There have been a lot of deaths, especially now with the missile->castle. I've seen a lot of "poor Xander"s but I think "poor slayers" is more appropriate. Most of them are nameless and faceless, but I'd imagine they have families somewhere. It's kind of sad that we'll never think much of them, but I guess that point was made in #5. I think we're really seeing the consequences of the Slayer power, and it's never pretty.
hacksaway | July 08, 20:12 CET

Why is it the result of the slayer power?
[ edit ] newcj | July 09, 00:37 CET

newcj, it's been established that slayer power is magical, so the end of demons and magic would end slayers too, per se, but not as their human selves.
dreamlogic | July 09, 07:47 CET

A missile destroying a castle full of young women does not seem like it has anything to do with slayer power other than they were targeted because they were fighting back against a group that is doing a lot of killing. If there were no slayer power, the killing would continue, especially since there has been no death of magic or demons as of yet.
All I meant was that they specifically have become targets and are being forgotten in the chaos. I'm not saying they shouldn't have been given the slayer power, just that every action has consequences. One being that Buffy's pissed a bunch of people off and others are going to pay for it. And yes, that's the fault of the demons/evil. I'm not even sure where I was going with this, I only posted originally because I was confused about why Xander was the one getting all the sympathy just for witnessing it. Yes, he's had a tough time, but...there are (probably) a lot of dead slayers there.
If it's Riley I am going to be sooo...sooo just disappointed!
Finally got my copy.

First, I liked it a lot; Willow-as-teacher was fantastic. I loved seeing Spidermonkey as Fray's apparent permanent sidekick.

Re: Kennedy. I never much minded her; I really think she suffered from not enough screen time. Think: Oz was disliked until we got to know him, Tara was disliked before we really got to know her, and both wound up as much-beloved characters. (Best-beloved, in some cases.) We always think no one is good enough for our Will until we see how much they care about her. We're seeing that with Kennedy now, and I think people are going to start coming around.

I really doubt the "magic missile" killed all the Slayers in the castle. Heavy casualties but not total. My reasoning is thus: we've seen a Slayer survive explosions before (Faith and the bomb) and -- more meta -- they can't kill off both Leah and Rowenna. With Satsu's departure those two are the two Slayers whom we have met, know a bit about, and care about. I imagine one is dead and the other survives, just so we can feel bad about losing the one and carry on with the other as the duty "background Slayer."

Plus, when was the last time Warren built something that worked perfectly, with no drawbacks? I think Twilight knew/suspected the missile wasn't going to kill everyone in the castle (besides knowing Buffy and Willow weren't going to be there).

Riley still makes sense as Twilight, especially if he knows something Buffy doesn't and is thinking, "Death of a hundred Slayers versus the death of six billion people... launch it, Warren." But that's far from certain.

Anyone think Buffy's possibly-date was with the Immortal? I don't think we've retconned him out of the picture entirely.
What does one need to buy to read all of Fray?

There is one TPB volume that includes all of Fray.
Thanks, newjc. But let me ask again... 1) "TPB?" and 2) Assuming it was fully issued as a series of comic books (Someone mentioned her appearance in, I believe, Tales of the Slayer?), how many issues are there (as I'd rather buy them individually)? Is there a best or recommended source? Thanks again. Brett

[ edited by Brett on 2008-07-19 01:09 ]
I don't think the individual issues are still in print. The trade paperback (TPB) is the collection of all 8(?) issues, and it's really nice. You can get it for $13 at I haven't read Tales of the Slayer but that's a separate TPB.

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