Whedonesque : Comments on 16855 : Buffy narrowly defeats Thor in "Best Superhero Ever" Tourney.

Sorry, Buffy, but there is no way I am voting for you over Batman. It simply will never happen.

I'm kind of amazed that Buffy's leading 158 to 13 as of 3:19 pm, EDT. She might even keep the lead; it's not as though there's a hugely anticipated megablockbuster featuring her competition that's coming out in a week.

Sorry, Buff; it was fun while it lasted.

Roland the Headless Thompson Gunner | July 11, 23:21 CET

Seriously, they couldn't have seeded this better? I mean what kind of luck to be up against Batman when his new highly anticipated movie comes out soon? UGH. They couldn't have pitted her against the FLASH or Silver Surfer??

platinumtlc | July 11, 23:25 CET

Yeah, she'll lose the poll to Batman. But how would the epic battle go? That's the real question.

Sunfire | July 11, 23:33 CET

Hey, they have a CAPTCHA now. Was Thor leading initially because of the bot vote?

Sunfire | July 11, 23:40 CET

Noticed the CAPTCHA and it has twarted me. Keeps telling me I typed it in wrong. Whatever.

NYPinTA | July 11, 23:42 CET

Yeah, Batman is pretty tough competition. I would be unsurprised if he went on to win the whole shebang.

But, way to beat up yet another god, Buffy. Don't drop the hammer on the glass countertop!

Septimus | July 11, 23:44 CET

Thor was leading by a couple thousand, then Buffy came up to about a couple hundred difference, then over took and Thor came back on top, then Buffy eventually finished on top with 300 votes more.

platinumtlc | July 11, 23:44 CET

NYPinTA is a robot! Uh, I mean... that sucks, NYPinTA.

Sunfire | July 11, 23:47 CET

For what it's worth, Scott Allie doesn't seem tweaked at the notion of being beaten by Batman. It was the idea of Thor that just seemed so wrong.

theonetruebix | July 11, 23:48 CET

Buffy vs Thor? Sorry big guy, the mighty hammer doesn't crush the mustard. Nor make Dawny sandwichs for that matter.

Madhatter | July 11, 23:49 CET

As much as I love Buffy, this is no contest. Batman has always been my all-time favorite superhero.

RestlessReverie | July 11, 23:52 CET

I'm going to call it now, Kitty Pride will pull of the upset of Hulk. :) Also, the Buffy-Batman match-up will be the closest of all the match-ups involving the top seed.

crazygolfa | July 11, 23:55 CET

Gimme Buffy over Batman any day.

Not that there is even a remote chance of her beating him in this poll. I'm loyal, not stupid. ;)

Highlander | July 11, 23:57 CET

We all must vote and vote! If we can't win, we can at least it make close!

platinumtlc | July 12, 00:00 CET

You know though... when you think about it... because that is what we should all be doing really, Buffy would totally win. Eventually.

*I'm thinking about this with my positronic brain.*

NYPinTA | July 12, 00:08 CET

Guys, right now she is creaming Batman, by something like 85-15%! Go, Buffy!

Dana5140 | July 12, 00:11 CET

Hey, they have a CAPTCHA now. Was Thor leading initially because of the bot vote?

Yeah, it's everyone else that stuffs ballots. Of course ;-).

Clearly Batman should and, if there's any justice, will win this but then as I think we've shown numerous times, it's not about deserving or reasons for one character to beat the other, it's about fan mobilisation.

Saje | July 12, 00:11 CET

Well... sorry Buffy but Batman will forever be the best.

badwolf | July 12, 00:14 CET

From what I'm seeing, Buffy's slaying that bat fellow by 90%.

Can't stop a hard working slayer.

Madhatter | July 12, 00:17 CET

I won't mind if Buffy loses to Batman. I'm relieved that she beat Thor, though. Losing to Thor would have just been shameful.

theclynn | July 12, 00:21 CET

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but...isn't that Thor's hammer in Buffy's hands? Whoa! What a swing!

Madhatter | July 12, 00:29 CET

Sorry, Buffy, but Batman wins with me.

Xander would understand.

[ edited by kishi on 2008-07-11 21:35 ]

kishi | July 12, 00:35 CET

Again, it comes down to a question of who has the better track record as a superhero. It's about job performance, not who is tougher or stronger or would win a fight or has the more stylish boots.

If the world was about to end, if there was a big bad that had to be defeated, which one would you call? Which one is better qualified to save the day?

AlanD | July 12, 01:13 CET

Nah, it's the Buffster for me. Now if it were Superman against Batman, I would vote for Bats without a second thought! *mind fizzes as she thinks of a crossover between Batman and Buffy villains* Whoa. I need to rest my head after that!

Mirage | July 12, 01:20 CET

I would say that both are equally qualified to save the day. Both are the smartest fighters out there. If a villian bests Batman or Buffy in a fight, both figure out why they lost to make sure it doesn't happen again. They also are able to adjust on the fly, so if their original plan goes to skite, they change it. Both also have allies who will have their back in almost all situations who know their ally well-enough to change their battle plan.

ETA: So basically what I'm saying is that there no wrong choice between these two.

[ edited by crazygolfa on 2008-07-11 22:23 ]

crazygolfa | July 12, 01:21 CET

Except which has the most stylish boots. Now, that's a tough choice....thinking...thinking. Folks, a possible stalemate.

Madhatter | July 12, 01:34 CET

Batman's boots would really not ever be described as "stylish".

theonetruebix | July 12, 01:36 CET

Can I have lived to the age of 34 and never heard the word 'tourney' before?

Simon | July 12, 01:36 CET

No you can't. If you think you hadn't you must've been wrong ;).

Batman's boots would really not ever be described as "stylish".

Or affordable probably.

Saje | July 12, 01:39 CET

Batman's cool. Nay, awesome. But Buffy's better.

UnpluggedCrazy | July 12, 01:51 CET

wow, buffy is kicking batman's ass.

almost cookies | July 12, 01:55 CET

Actually, why are we having this discussion? Aren't Buffy and Batman "good heroes"?

'Course, so is Thor. Okay, stage left right now:)

Madhatter | July 12, 02:04 CET

Of course Buffy gets my vote!

mysteryshadesman | July 12, 02:46 CET

Aren't Buffy and Batman "good heroes"?

As opposed to bad heroes 'Hatter ? ;-)

Yeah in the comics it's normally: One character encroaches on the other's turf and due to an initial misunderstanding and the fact that both are big tough heroes and so tend not to back down, they fight (usually to a stalemate though it can depend on whose book they're in). Then they realise they're both goodies and team up to fight the real menace, often snarking at each other in the process until they defeat the evil together but not before developing a mutual respect for their respective abilities.

Except Batman, who always knows he can kick your ass and so doesn't need to bother with respect ;).

Saje | July 12, 02:52 CET

Batman's morality always seemed iffy to me. Well the movie Batmans, anyway. I know less about the comics. Sometimes I think movie Batmans would be almost as (un)happy beating up "good" guys.

Aren't Buffy and Batman "good heroes"?

I don't know about you, but I thought it was really neat when Buffy fought Willow and Anya. Terrible at the time, but on later rewatching, it was pretty awesome. Especially Anya, who we never really saw fight like that before. And we'd never seen Willow say exactly what she thinks about some of Buffy's choices either. Evil Willow of the Blackness was talking, but she was saying things normal Willow had thought about before and just not said. Setting the good guys up against one another gives you stuff you just can't get when they fight the bad guys.

Sunfire | July 12, 03:05 CET

Batman's morality always seemed iffy to me. Well the movie Batmans, anyway.

Yeah the first live action films (i.e. pre 'Batman Begins') took big liberties with that because in the comics (at least after the first few years) he never kills, ever and he never uses guns, ever (he's almost pathologically averse to their use in fact). There've been a fair few stories over the years detailing why and talking about the "burden" of, essentially, civilisation that he carries which his enemies don't.

It's a big thing in the comics and rightly so because otherwise what separates him from the bad guys ?

Saje | July 12, 03:22 CET

I've never seen Buffy on a box of breakfast cereal, so she wins over Batman, in my book.

Jim in Buffalo | July 12, 03:25 CET

She's winning so far. She's over 1000 votes now to his 280 votes. She's also the only one of the super heroes to pass 1000 votes so far! Everyone is still in their 100s or 200s.

platinumtlc | July 12, 03:36 CET

Sadly, I do not believe Buffy can defeat the Dark Knight (in this poll). But we shall see!

hobnail | July 12, 03:41 CET

Buffy would not fight Batman, she would date him. Dark Knightly goodness. So annoyingly mysterious and broody. I think that's who she met up with in NYC in the latest issue. Not in the sense of actually.

Pointy | July 12, 03:47 CET

Yeah, but doesn't she almost always at some point end up fighting her boyfriends?

ETA: and wins.

[ edited by NYPinTA on 2008-07-12 00:53 ]

NYPinTA | July 12, 03:53 CET

I was thinking they could court-while-fighting.* She does not defeat the Batman; he surrenders . . . to his heart.

:)

ETA *Like they tried to do with Daredevil and Elektra in the movie.

[ edited by Pointy on 2008-07-12 01:09 ]

Pointy | July 12, 04:02 CET

I guess it also depends on what media you are talking about. I don't know from comics, but obviously comic Batman has had a much longer and more distinguished career than comic Buffy. Ditto for the movies.

But having grown up watching the old Batman TV series, I can say that TV Buffy is miles ahead of campy old TV Batman (sorry Adam West, but it's true). Letting the bad guys escape each week so they can come back and try some other diabolical scheme is not being an effective superhero in my book.

Everything taken together, I would think that Buffy has killed more bad guys than most of your standard comic book superheros combined. A vamp or two a day since she was 16. That's why they call her the slayer.

AlanD | July 12, 04:49 CET

Buffy is ten times the hero the vastly overrated Batman ever dreamed of being.

witchlover | July 12, 05:19 CET

If push came to shove, Batman has no superpowers, so Buffy would kick his you-know-what any day.

Perhaps the more pertinent point is- why would these two be fighting in the first place? Buffy would charm Bruce Wayne's pants off AND have him forking out to cover the costs of the Slayer Army within 2 minutes of their first meeting.

I'd much rather see Buffy take on The Joker, myself.

missb | July 12, 06:17 CET

They aren't fighting. They're standing there asking us which one is better.

theonetruebix | July 12, 06:19 CET

They aren't fighting. They're standing there asking us which one is better.

Neither of them, for behaving so childishly! ;)

"Seriously" though, for me it's Buffy. Batman is an icon, sure, but he's never been a favorite of mine. Now if Buffy had to go up against someone like Spider-Man, then it'd be time to think on the proposition for a while ;).

GVH | July 12, 06:47 CET

Buffy v. Batman.

Long have I dreaded the coming of this day.

Romo Lampkin | July 12, 06:58 CET

They aren't fighting. They're standing there asking us which one is better.

That's hilarious, 'cos when I cast my vote for Buffy over Thor it was on the assumption that it was asking for the best fighter. (Did we have a poll like that a few weeks ago, or am I making stuff up again?)

Either way, Buffy is SO without a doubt better than Batman, otherwise I'd be on a Batman site now, and not, you know, a 'Buffy ' one.
He's just, you know older. And better known. (But like Buffy, possibly, just a little bit gay. ;-) )

missb | July 12, 07:13 CET

What GVH said. (The second paragraph of it, anyway). To misquote Mr. Osbourne (that's Daniel, not Ozzy), "as B goes, so goes my nation."

SoddingNancyTribe | July 12, 07:19 CET

Ohh, Buffy v. Spidey? Incredible fighting skills and mad put down skills on both sides... plus angst aplenty on all fronts!

zeitgeist | July 12, 07:31 CET

But would that be organic put down shooters Buffy or mechanical put down shooters Buffy?

theonetruebix | July 12, 07:34 CET

I've always assumed these polls were about who would win in a fight. And Buffy would totally wipe the floor with batman. She beat up a friggin god once. Some crazy rich guy dressed like a bat doesn't stand a chance against her.

RaisedByMongrels | July 12, 07:39 CET

Bwahaha... Also if JMS were to write it, would he retroactively have Angel have an affair with one of Buffy's arch nemesissies and then have twin children with huge foreheads and the proportional strength of Angel's hair under the influence of Nancy Boy Hair-gel?

zeitgeist | July 12, 07:40 CET

I think I might now want a t-shirt that simply says, "The proportional strength of Angel's hair."

theonetruebix | July 12, 07:43 CET

Sweet! I scored a t-shirt line - sleep is for the birds ;).

zeitgeist | July 12, 07:44 CET

This is troubling, as the answer to "who would win...?" questions is Batman. Even when he isn't nominated.

Craig Oxbrow | July 12, 07:47 CET

I'd much rather see Buffy take on The Joker, myself.

Now we'll talking! That would be a smack down event that even HBO would cover as "pay per view".

Madhatter | July 12, 11:47 CET

Buffy. What both Pointy and RaisedByMongrels said above. Either way, the Bat is a goner.

[ edited by MysticSlug on 2008-07-12 11:48 ]

MysticSlug | July 12, 14:47 CET

Uh huh. Just to reiterate, it's not a fight, it's who's the "better" super-hero. That said...

Yeah sure B beat up a "god" once (with help) but Glory was a bit crappy as gods go, she wasn't even strong enough to kill Buffy with one punch for instance. Superman is actually more godlike in all but name and of course as i'm sure we all know (*cough* ;), Batman beat him (couple of times). Oh and indirectly (as the page alludes to) he also beat Wonder Woman, The Flash, Green Lantern, Martian Man-Hunter etc. In fact he beats pretty much everyone he comes up against. Oh and often alone (and without magical help).

Out of continuity, Batman's also killed Dracula BTW (which is more than Buffy could manage, despite that being her area of special expertise).

Saje | July 12, 16:05 CET

So, Saje, you ever read Batman? ;)

But yes, I think Batman may even win in a fight. But is he better? Nah, he's old and depressing, while Buffy's young and depressed. Case closed :p.

Bix: I'm placing my pre-order for that shirt ;)

GVH | July 12, 16:32 CET

I may have glanced at a couple of issues one time. Ahem ;).

Saje | July 12, 16:47 CET

For newcomers to Whedonesque:

http://whedonesque.com/comments/12794

http://whedonesque.com/comments/9816

Simon | July 12, 17:13 CET

I really don't like Batman, he has no superpowers and is paranoid as hell. I'd take Buffy any day of the year, even in those wacky years with an extra one.

Some day people are going to kill each other over things like this, instead of over their religious books.

[ edited by Pretty_Hate_Machine on 2008-07-12 14:29 ]

Pretty_Hate_Machine | July 12, 17:25 CET

See, I knew we had that discussion before. Heh, I see I said that Buffy would win a fight the last time. Self-contradiction rocks ;)

GVH | July 12, 17:43 CET

Well I said exactly the same things as last time GVH. Not sure if that's better or worse ;).

Saje | July 12, 18:22 CET

If it's Christian Bale-Batman, I think I'm with Pointy: they'd fight, then date. It would end badly, of course, but it would be awesome while it lasted.

I must, of course, follow my heart.

Update: Bats is gaining, but Buffy still holds the lead with 58%.

ManEnoughToAdmitIt | July 12, 19:58 CET

Now that's weird, Simon. Why do people keep putting this particular match-up together?

theonetruebix | July 12, 21:01 CET

I think it's because they both begin with 'B'.

Simon | July 12, 21:11 CET

I think it's because their love transcends proprietary rights.

Pointy | July 12, 21:19 CET

I think it is because "Smashed" makes people want Buffy to "Do it again! Do it again!" and Batman...bats...vampires...

It may all be very Freudian. (nods sagely to cover a lack of any knowledge whatsoever)

newcj | July 12, 21:23 CET

"Superman is actually more godlike in all but name and of course as i'm sure we all know (*cough* ;), Batman beat him (couple of times)."

Psh. My grandmother could beat up Superman. All you need is some kryptonite and he's suddenly weaker than your average senior citizen.

Buffy can kill vampires even without her powers, friends, or weapons. Batman needs all kinds of crazy gadgets and vehicles just to beat up common criminals.

RaisedByMongrels | July 12, 21:25 CET

Well he needs them to beat up multiple common criminals (as other have said, he's just a man, no powers bestowed that he didn't earn - apart from his money ;) though two or three he can handle just fine as Bruce Wayne (sometimes he even throws fights so no-one will finger him as Batman). And when did Buffy kill a vampire without a weapon ? Struggling to remember that one (seriously, if anyone can tell me i'd appreciate it ;).

Still, I don't think this'll be won with, y'know, facts ;).

As to why they're often matched, bats in the belfry ? Bats, cheese, superstitious cowards ? Surely I don't need to spell it out ?

*runs away before anyone asks him to spell it out*

Saje | July 12, 21:38 CET

*shakes head* And all of a sudden after reading the comments, I'm in a weird mood for some Bruce/Lex fics. Just thought I should impose this on you guys... ;)

Buffy is still leading 2502 to Batman's 1781. And hey, seeing as we are talking about serious matters such as boots and might I mention the lack of cape on Buffy (although that suit on Bats... *cough* and now I'm stuck in Angel's scary dream) anyway... Who has the worst name? Hm. I don't know about major fans, but I always find the addition of "man" (or "woman", "girl") in the superheroes name a turnoff. Buffy's name grew on me after a while (as did Spike, Angel, Xander, Willow, Fred...)

Mirage | July 12, 21:38 CET

Saje, Buffy may have killed a vampire with sunshine (but I don't recall that situation personally) but she always did need a weapon, frequently something she would find at hand in the situation (staking the vampire with the wood sign or cutting off his head with a drum sets cymbals). But regardless of needing weapons, she has supernatural speed strength and reactions which would ALWAYS beat Batman (in spite of his money). Anyway she is also one of my Whedony heroes and Batman is just some weird guy with issues so she will always get my vote!

embers | July 12, 21:48 CET

Saje, I assumed RaisedByMongrels was referring to "Helpless," wherein she tricks Kralik into self-destructing by drinking the holy water (and drops the bookcase on the other one). Although you could argue the holy water is a weapon, or that Buffy didn't "kill" him as such, I think it counts because she's not using powers or friends, but only her native cunning. :-)

SoddingNancyTribe | July 12, 21:55 CET

Yeah I most definitely would argue that holy water is a weapon against a vampire (though her solution was very clever). And also bookcases ;).

(improvised weapons are still weapons and if it came to matching "native cunning" i'd still back long, tall and bonkers. He's all about the "native" cunning, spent years developing it)

Anyway she is also one of my Whedony heroes and Batman is just some weird guy with issues so she will always get my vote!

Well, at least you're honest embers ;).

(and i'll admit, it does depend on what we mean when we say "Buffy" and "Batman". You could argue for instance that without at least his costume Batman isn't Batman, whereas even stark naked Buffy is still Buffy i.e. her abilities are "built-in". In a hypothetical naked Batman vs naked Buffy scenario not only would Pointy probably explode with glee ;) but Buffy would very likely win. BUT, bearing in mind that super-Riley could possibly go toe to toe with Buffy for a short time, I think Batman might still stand some chance. He is basically the very best a man can be already, without "vitamins" and, despite her many kills, still much more experienced than the Buffster)

Saje | July 12, 22:05 CET

Just posting an update:

40.9%
Batman (1802 responses)

59.1%
Buffy the Vampire Slayer (2602 responses)

4404 total responses

50.8%
Superman (282 responses)

49.2%
Captain America (273 responses)

555 total responses

82.0%
Spider-Man (291 responses)

18.0%
Punisher (64 responses)

355 total responses

56.6%
Wolverine (282 responses)

43.4%
Daredevil (216 responses)

498 total responses

Looks like Buffy Vs Batman is the biggest match out of all the Sweet 16 pairs. Over 2000 total votes! Keep em coming! Buffy vs. Thor ended with over 12000 votes... so we're not out of the woods yet.

platinumtlc | July 12, 22:15 CET

bearing in mind that super-Riley could possibly go toe to toe with Buffy for a short time

Not sure this is the case. Anytime Buffy "fought" super-Riley she was hindered by the not wanting to hurt him physically or in the pride department. Buffy always did use some kind of weapon against vampires from what I remember, but I wonder if she could have beheaded them with brute force. It may be similar to the situation in Ats s5 where in the 1800's Angelus threatens to grab the arrows out of the air and then admits to Spike that he doesn't know if he can because he never tried. Of course we have already seen him do that trick in modern times.

Buffy does what is necessary when it is necessary, often surprising herself in the process. If naked Buffy needed to battle naked Batman, I'm sure Buffy would do what she had to do. I just hope Pointy doesn't distract her with all that cheering, people exploding I know she can handle.

newcj | July 12, 22:30 CET

Saw this on RedEye's blog, an update for yesterday:

"
July 11, 2008 (Friday)
Geek to Me posted an update to the tourney as follows:
The RedEye Superhero Tourney - Round Two

Posted at 9:45 p.m. - Friday, July 11

"Buffy's fans are coming out in force, and earlier today, it looked like she was going to bury the Dark Knight, but things happen fast on the 'internets':

46.6%
Batman (1067 responses)

53.4%
Buffy the Vampire Slayer (1222 responses)

2289 total responses

This match-up has already gotten the []bmost votes[/b] of all the Sweet Sixteen pairings.

Now, remember folks...this is a battle for who is the BEST CHARACTER, not 'who can beat who in a fight' (although you can use that as part of your argument). Let's face it, if a comic book writer wants The Hulk to get beaten by a Girl Scout, they can figure out a way to do it. So let's stick to why we love our characters, talk them up and not bash others for their opinions.

(You're free to bash me all you want, though. That's what I'm here for. And I read all the comments, so be sure to make 'em!)

Keep voting, tell your friends, but most important of all HAVE FUN!""

platinumtlc | July 12, 22:31 CET

Anytime Buffy "fought" super-Riley she was hindered by the not wanting to hurt him physically or in the pride department.

Yeah, fair point newcj. Naked Batman would get his arse handed to him. Possibly literally ;).

(though like I say, I reckon you could make an argument that "Batman" is actually the "cloud" of Bruce Wayne, a possible psychiatric disorder and the costume. His utility belt would probably be on the edge of the "cloud", his vehicles, mission specific armour etc. just outside it. So any fight with "Batman" would by necessity include the costume - which is armoured - and whatever gadgets he has in it i.e. "naked Batman" is a contradiction in terms. Possibly ;)

Saje | July 12, 22:40 CET

Superman is actually more godlike in all but name and of course as i'm sure we all know (*cough* ;), Batman beat him (couple of times). Oh and indirectly (as the page alludes to) he also beat Wonder Woman, The Flash, Green Lantern, Martian Man-Hunter etc.

And all those stories were written because they were counterintuitive. Or as I prefer, absurd. If you wrote a comic about Superman defeating Batman everyone would go "yeah, so what". So when you run out of ideas and need to scrape the bottom of the barrel you come up with "I know, Batman defeats Superman!" But I prefer not to dip into the absurdly improbable pile again.

witchlover | July 12, 23:35 CET

Yeah, Frank Miller, king of the barrel scrapers ;).

Not being the author(s) I don't know why they were written but the JLA story is surely about how paranoid Batman is and how that can be used against him and his allies ? And the fact that Superman gave him the Kryptonite used in 'Hush' is about how much Big Blue trusts him surely, how he knows that if Supes ever went off the rails, Batman would do what was required without hesitattion ? And they show Batman as defender of the "common man", not aloof like some god but down in the dirt with the rest of us. We all have our takes of course. *shrugs*

Saje | July 12, 23:44 CET

Who cares about Buffy vs. Bats? I'm more worried about Kitty Pryde vs. The Hulk. What would Joss say if he found out that Kitty loses to the jolly green giant with anger issues? :) Remember Buffy is partly inspired by Kitty, if you don't vote for her, it's like you're not voting for Buffy. So do this for Buffy. ;)

crazygolfa | July 12, 23:59 CET

And they show Batman as defender of the "common man", not aloof like some god but down in the dirt with the rest of us.

Down in the dirt with the rest of us billionaires? Batman shows you can do anything you want as long as you're richer than God. (Unless you have a physical deformity, of course. Then you'd be a villain.)

witchlover | July 13, 00:45 CET

I'm guessing you're not a fan then ;).

Saje | July 13, 01:40 CET

Saje - I'm actually pretty indifferent to Batman, but a huge fan of Buffy. My poor writing skills probably make it seem I'm more "into it" than I really am. But back to Batman defeating Superman. The "bottom of the barrel" comment may have been over the top, but you have to agree that the improbability of such an outcome must have been a huge attraction to Miller. However, improbable events of the past are unreliable as predictors of future outcomes.

witchlover | July 13, 02:04 CET

Better character...? Hmm, I dunno. I do love the conflicted/shades of gray types.

However, the "Naked Buffy vs. Naked Batman" possibility clarifies the issue greatly. Because yes, that is all I ever think about.

Update: according to the results displayed when I stuffed the ballot box, the Buffster has pulled in over 60% of the vote.

[ edited by ManEnoughToAdmitIt on 2008-07-13 02:19 ]

ManEnoughToAdmitIt | July 13, 05:17 CET

... but you have to agree that the improbability of such an outcome must have been a huge attraction to Miller. However, improbable events of the past are unreliable as predictors of future outcomes.

Sure, Superman winning is dog bites man and as we all know, that's not news. But surely Buffy beating a god, the might of the US army and the root of all evil in the world falls into the same category ? If we can use Buffy's past victories as arguments then we can use Batman's, regardless of how unlikely each may appear on paper.

And I stand by the "common man" thing too. The point of that scene in DKR (to me) is Batman showing Superman what it's like to be us, to get hurt and be mortal. Likewise in JLA, paranoid as it was, the object was to protect "us" from "them", should the worst happen. It's not a question of rich vs poor, it's a question of "gods" vs mortals, of ivory towers (or crystal palaces in the Arctic ;) vs back-alleys in the shittiest part of town at 3 am.

Like I say though, we each have our take ;).

Saje | July 13, 12:44 CET

If we can use Buffy's past victories as arguments then we can use Batman's, regardless of how unlikely each may appear on paper.

But I don't have to rely on Buffy's past victories. All I need is the fact that Buffy has superpowers and Batman doesn't. So common sense says Buffy should win. You yourself wrote that a victory for Batman is unlikely "on paper".

[ edited by witchlover on 2008-07-13 19:10 ]

witchlover | July 13, 22:10 CET

I'm happy to assume you didn't misread that deliberately witchlover ;).

(I was pretty clearly referring to his past victories and in the context that Buffy's past victories are also very unlikely on paper)

The point we're going over (ad nauseum ;) is, Buffy has super-powers but so what ? Which is to say, the argument "But Buffy has super-powers" isn't much of a counter-argument to "Batman has defeated opponents with super-powers before (sometimes much more powerful opponents than Buffy)". And of course, Warren didn't have super-powers when he defeated Buffy.

Saje | July 13, 22:30 CET

I don't believe I misread anything. I was pointing out that a Batman victory over Buffy is just as unlikely on paper as a Batman victory over Superman. The fact that Batman once beat Superman is evidence that he could win, not evidence that he should win. In sports terms, Batman's victory over Superman was an upset. But one upset does not mean there will be another.

witchlover | July 13, 22:38 CET

One evening while Batman is patrolling the big city, he sees a young woman attack a group of unarmed men. Before he can stop this new villainess, her victims disappear into puffs of smoke. He tracks her and slowly becomes aware of a level of evil in this world that he, broody loner shadow-dweller that he is, had never suspected. Until one night she calls him out of the darkness and demands to know why he's following her. Fighting ensues -- really more mutual testing of skill, which turns into silent mutual admiration. Before he can deliver what he thinks will be the decisive blow, he hesitates for a moment . . . and realizes he's in love. He melts into the shadows.

Now it's her turn to stalk, I mean, track him, and she discovers someone else trying to live a normal life by day (but way better financed) while hunting evil relentlessly at night. Mr. Broodytights gets under skin.

Confrontation. Kissing.

Their time together is idyllic, their ultimate parting painful but necessary.

*Sniffle*.

Excuse me. I have to go pick out a Sarah McLachlan song.

ETA: Oooh, Aimee Mann has a new album! There's a song called "Stranger Into Starman." Perfect!

(It cites Anne Sexton. Aimee, are you okay?)

[ edited by Pointy on 2008-07-13 20:25 ]

Pointy | July 13, 22:50 CET

Undry eyes all over the place Pointy, their epic love remembered in fatuous "Top 25"s for all eternity. Batffy 4 Evah, yo ! ;)

I was pointing out that a Batman victory over Buffy is just as unlikely on paper as a Batman victory over Superman.

And I was pointing out that a Buffy victory over Glory (or The First) is just as unlikely as a Batman victory over Superman so that your point applies to both heroes (which you seem to have missed, hence misread).

(and I don't agree that it's as unlikely BTW, Buffy's nowhere near as powerful as Superman)

But one upset does not mean there will be another.

Uh huh. He sure manages to string those upsets together, what a lucky fellow ;). Fair point witchlover, the past doesn't predict the future, you've [re]discovered the problem of induction, treat yourself to a cookie ;). But again, that applies equally to every time Buffy's won against the odds (i.e. every big bad she's beat). As you said, stories (NOT just Batman stories) are written with the hero overcoming odds it seems they shouldn't be able to - if the hero's always stronger than their opponent then not only is it a dull story but they're not heroes, they're bullies.

So in the same way that I can't guarantee a Batman victory just because he's done it before, you can't guarantee a Buffy victory. And if you want to go strictly on the balance of probability, well, they both defeat pretty much everyone put in front of them (even when it's an "upset") so again, no help there.

Saje | July 14, 00:41 CET

I was pointing out that a Batman victory over Buffy is just as unlikely on paper as a Batman victory over Superman.

And I was pointing out that a Buffy victory over Glory (or The First) is just as unlikely as a Batman victory over Superman so that your point applies to both heroes (which you seem to have missed, hence misread).

Sorry, your logic doesn't hold up. I'm am NOT using Buffy's past victories as evidence she would beat Batman, nor have I once in this post. I'm just saying that should win because she has super powers and he doesn't. You're the one who is saying Batman's past victories indicate he would beat Buffy. And I'm not guaranteeing a Buffy victory, just saying it's the likely outcome.

you've [re]discovered the problem of induction, treat yourself to a cookie

No need for sarcasm, I'm quite familiar with induction.

witchlover | July 14, 01:00 CET

Thank you, Saje, for not not typing "Butman 4 Evah!"

Their love burned briefly, but incandescently, in my head.

Coming soon: A DC/Dark Horse Crossover Event:

Dark Knightly Goodness

Their Love Could Not Be Denied (Except by section 106 of Title 17 of the U.S. Code: Copyright)

[ edited by Pointy on 2008-07-13 22:53 ]

Pointy | July 14, 01:04 CET

Novaesque i'd say Pointy, like a quasar of pure love ;). And if any love can come to some sort of amicable cross-licencing deal it's theirs (and only partly because Batman is a big slutty cross-over ho ;).

No need for sarcasm, I'm quite familiar with induction.

There's no need but it keeps things light if we both approach this with a sense of humour, yes witchlover ? Makes sense to me, bearing in mind what we're arguing about ;).

(and you might notice that I gave you full credit for knowing what the problem of induction is since I didn't in any way explain it)

The things is, their past victories surely dictate what they're capable of ? Are you saying Buffy should beat a normal mortal man since she has super-powers ? I agree unreservedly, that's (no offence ;) kind of facile it's so obvious. But he's not a normal mortal man, he's Batman, and to know what that means we have to look at his long history of beating people that he, by all rights, shouldn't beat (you could say "beating people he shouldn't beat" is one of his properties, just as "super-strength" is one of Buffy's).

(i've already said naked Batman would "have his arse handed to him" by Buffy if that's what you're getting at. Locked in a cage together without any of his weapons, armour or opportunity to retreat he'd lose - though, as i've mentioned, I would maybe suggest that that's not Buffy vs Batman, more Buffy vs Bruce Wayne)

Saje | July 14, 01:24 CET

*blink*

theonetruebix | July 14, 01:25 CET

Don't do that, you might miss something important. On second thoughts, you're probably OK ;).

Saje | July 14, 01:27 CET

No need for sarcasm, I'm quite familiar with induction.

There's no need but it keeps things light if we both approach this with a sense of humour

That was humor? Seemed like condescension to me.

you could say "beating people he shouldn't beat" is one of his properties

Wow, now we're really having fun with logic! If beating people he shouldn't beat is one of his "properties", then he should beat them, right? Paradox, anyone? In fact, it would be impossible to invent an enemy he shouldn't beat. Batman the invincible! ;)

[ edited by witchlover on 2008-07-13 22:59 ]

[ edited by witchlover on 2008-07-13 22:59 ]

witchlover | July 14, 01:58 CET

That was humor? Seemed like condescension to me.

Ah well, humour's a very subjective thing ;).

Batman the invincible! ;)

Well, so far anyway ;).

(and that's not a paradox BTW, that would require self-contradiction, it's more like a tautology or begging the question [/condescension] ;-)

[ edited by Saje on 2008-07-14 10:11 ]

Saje | July 14, 13:09 CET

Pointy, you just achieved the impossible. You made me almost want to read Batman/Buffy crossover fic. But, dinna fret, this Tale of Slayer and Knight will forever be etched in my memory, never to be forgotten, but at times wistful of it doing just that.

Mirage | July 14, 13:17 CET

;-)

BTW: Lyrics of "Stranger into Starman." It's a fairly awesome minute-and-a-half.

Pointy | July 14, 16:00 CET

I have to disagree, Saje. It would be a tautology if he had the property of beating those he should beat. If X is someone Batman shouldn't beat, then he shouldn't beat him. But since Batman has the property of beating those he shouldn't beat, he should beat him. It's definitely a paradox. Put it this way:
- Batman shouldn't beat X
- It's a property of Batman that he beats those he shouldn't beat
- Therefore, Batman should beat X
Congratulations, you've discovered the problem of paradox. Treat yourself to a cookie. ;)

witchlover | July 14, 20:25 CET

I've got a pizza on the way, it's sort of like a giant cheese and tomato cookie ;).

Nah it's definitely more begging the question I reckon i.e. i've assumed that which I set out to prove (that Batman beats people he shouldn't - on paper - beat). It's more like

- Batman shouldn't beat X on paper
- It's a property of Batman that he actually beats those he shouldn't beat on paper
- Therefore, Batman should beat X in reality (NB ~ not the real reality ;)

which works quite well with (in fact requires) your way of thinking since it assumes that there's an "on paper" which exists separate from his record of past victories (i.e. "on paper" is the list of properties which don't refer to his record, "in reality" includes his record). Paradox averted, universe saved. I'd ask for a reward but, as I said, I already have pizza on the way ;).

(I guess maybe what I should've said is "it's a property of Batman that he does things a normal mortal man couldn't do [so treating him as a normal mortal man is inaccurate]" - which is a borderline tautology itself since, y'know, super-hero, yeah ? Not normal kinda comes with the sickle ;)

Saje | July 15, 00:41 CET

NB ~ not the real reality

What, you're saying this is somehow pretend? ;)
So the core of your argument IS a tautology - "Batman will win because Batman always wins."
But that depends on who's writing the story, doesn't it?

witchlover | July 15, 01:12 CET

Well, it certainly depends on whose comic he's in (cos Buffy always wins too ;).

(must admit I would love to know who Joss thinks would win. Last time - or the time before that maybe ;) - he reckoned he already knew. Now on the face of it you'd think Buffy's his shoe-in but he's been a comics fan for ages, if he's also a Batman fan then he'll have "known" him longer than the Buffster so i'm not 100% sure he reckons Buffy. Either way, it'd be fun to see if he had a "serious" answer for who and why)

Saje | July 15, 01:26 CET

*blink* Whoa. Just read the comments on RedEye. There are some really pissed Batman fans and I mean really. Apparently RedEye has rigged Buffy to win ;)

[ edited by Mirage on 2008-07-15 06:26 ]

Mirage | July 15, 09:26 CET

They are quite a sexist bunch aren't they. "Bro's over ho's." "She's just a c**t." Nice.

newcj | July 15, 10:07 CET

Some of them seem pretty apoplectic over the possibility of their boy losing. One of them wrote "Joss Whedon is lame, and writes like a 12-year old girl's myspace blog. Batman, however, is the World's Greatest Detective."

witchlover | July 15, 21:10 CET

We only have to hold until this Wednesday at noon, then this round is over.

theonetruebix | July 15, 21:12 CET

You know, I didn't really care who won this round until this: "Bro's over ho's." "She's just a c**t."

Seriously, WTF?

NYPinTA | July 15, 21:24 CET

Now I actually kind of want Buffy to win. For shame, fan-bois, for shame.

Saje | July 15, 22:35 CET