July 19
2008
Doctor Horrible Act III (The Big Finale) is Live.
Check out the finale and then come back here to talk it!
zeitgeist
| Dr. Horrible
| 05:00 CET
|
1066 comments total
| tags: dr. horrible, act iii, gonads and strife
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[ edited by karosurly on 2008-07-19 05:03 ]
karosurly | July 19, 05:02 CET
And it's loading now. Egads, I'm excited.
Jobo | July 19, 05:03 CET
They say you get to do the weird stuff."
Groupies: "We do the weird stuff!"
Ah, reunion of Mustard Man and Parking/Underwear Lady. Gotta love Fury and Noxon.
Kris | July 19, 05:05 CET
Calleyzkat | July 19, 05:05 CET
"next up, who's gay!"
Nalliac | July 19, 05:06 CET
zeitgeist | July 19, 05:12 CET
Calleyzkat | July 19, 05:14 CET
zeitgeist | July 19, 05:15 CET
spikeangellover | July 19, 05:16 CET
Calleyzkat | July 19, 05:16 CET
buffyangel299 | July 19, 05:16 CET
sportforredneck | July 19, 05:16 CET
Fantastic. But what zeitgeist said. The pathos. Oh, the pathos. "A thing." The....you'll see. It was so funny and great and tuneful and then, oh then. What a gut punch.
I'm recovering, so I'm a little woozy, but was that Maurissa playing one of the groupies? If so, two things: (1) she's got a great voice and can act!, (2) she's adorable.
[ edited by phlebotinin on 2008-07-19 05:18 ]
phlebotinin | July 19, 05:17 CET
:( *tears*
minuet | July 19, 05:17 CET
Not very articulate, but it's about all I can muster right about now.
(Um...er...I'm not crying...)
[ edited by NikkiSixx on 2008-07-19 05:17 ]
NikkiSixx | July 19, 05:17 CET
okelay | July 19, 05:17 CET
Wow. I'm sort of in shock.
I have no idea how I feel about this.
I mean...awesomely written/acted, etc., but...oh my god.
Lirazel | July 19, 05:17 CET
jkalderash | July 19, 05:17 CET
jcs | July 19, 05:17 CET
(in an entirely stupendous way)
beck | July 19, 05:17 CET
It was great to see the "Grr Argh" at the end.
shishkarobb | July 19, 05:18 CET
Oh...My...God.
That was heartbreakingly, hysterically awesome.
By the way, I am a big fan of Dark...and I shouldn't've been as surprised as I was.
But, DAMN...that rocked.
(And, Callyscat, I too am having a hard time closing my mouth right now.)
Oh, and one more thing: When's the frackin' DVD coming out???!!!
[ edited by AmazonGirl on 2008-07-19 05:22 ]
[ edited by AmazonGirl on 2008-07-19 05:22 ]
AmazonGirl | July 19, 05:18 CET
Cyantre | July 19, 05:18 CET
broodyangelcakes | July 19, 05:18 CET
gt0163c | July 19, 05:19 CET
Definitely brilliant although i will have to watch it another time or two for it to sink in. Greak work Joss!
phoenix1023 | July 19, 05:19 CET
jcs | July 19, 05:19 CET
[ edited by Tonya J on 2008-07-19 05:21 ]
Tonya J | July 19, 05:20 CET
phlebotinin | July 19, 05:20 CET
That wasn't funny at all. It was sad. Really sad. And shocking. And moving. And sad.
Sorry. Coherent sentences are still beyond me.
lookitsjulia | July 19, 05:21 CET
I had a suspicion it would end like this, but I wasn't too sure.
I'm very sad right now. The whole thing is fantastic, it's just really depressing.
I mean, it was all funny and goofy, and I was laughing, and then Joss just suddenly ripped my heart out. It was all very painful and graphic.
Racoon Boy | July 19, 05:21 CET
... There is no happy ending ...
sigh.
NickSeng | July 19, 05:21 CET
janeway216 | July 19, 05:21 CET
Someone maternal!
[ edited by theonetruebix on 2008-07-19 05:21 ]
The One True b!X | July 19, 05:21 CET
I really wish I wasn't right about the death ray or craft services.
Was it real? I'm in shock. My world is up-side-down and inside out. Beautiful punch, confused a little, don't want it to be true.
korkster | July 19, 05:21 CET
lexigeek | July 19, 05:21 CET
Oh, and did I mention how much I loved it?
KnitWit | July 19, 05:21 CET
ETA - Also, exactly how much evil could the Pink Pugilist perpetrate, really?
[ edited by napua on 2008-07-19 05:27 ]
peacemonger | July 19, 05:21 CET
How can anyone kill Felicia Day?? It's impossible! There must be a sequel in which it's revealed that she has invincibility powers. Heh.
Wow. Will have to digest.
hacksaway | July 19, 05:22 CET
Oh. My. God. I can't believe how shocked I am. But I just didn't expect it to get so serious. Wow.
There so needs to be a sequel.
electricspacegirl | July 19, 05:22 CET
I do have conflicting thoughts on the act. I think it's a really interesting way to develop the story and I think it was really well done, but, for some reason, it seemed to me to not really fit with the rest of the show. In terms of music, the second act was my favourite, then first, then third. I don't know... I just felt like something was missing.
That said, loved the comedy, loved seeing David, Marti, and apparently Drew G and Doug (I'll need to rewatch). Loved most of it.
Sorry for the odd ramble. I need to watch it again, in order to fully process.
Knuckleball | July 19, 05:22 CET
Three years without live-action Joss, and we still fall for every syllable - and always will.
*tears* damn you.... love you.... and always....thank you.
petranef | July 19, 05:22 CET
I do agree with jkaiderash about Act II being the best musically. Just a great overall show/episode/webisode?
phoenix1023 | July 19, 05:22 CET
Fredikins | July 19, 05:23 CET
Wait, I get it. The death ray needs work.
[ edited by Radaar on 2008-07-19 06:03 ]
Radaar | July 19, 05:23 CET
I loved that Mutant Enemy got to do his grr argh thing, I have missed it.
Did anyone else notice the writers taht played the evil league of evil? Douge Petrie, Drew Goddard?
Nalliac | July 19, 05:23 CET
okelay | July 19, 05:24 CET
swanjun | July 19, 05:24 CET
Pointy | July 19, 05:24 CET
dgjedi | July 19, 05:24 CET
Good work, Dr. Horrible team. You ripped my heart out and stomped on it, and I loved every minute of it... until I saw the gaping hole in my chest.
korkster | July 19, 05:24 CET
So. like. Wow. wow. really wow.
Loose Deckplate | July 19, 05:24 CET
I am looking forward to the soundtrack CD and DVD.
HydeMe | July 19, 05:25 CET
Need to see many more times to come to grips with all of it though.
witaria | July 19, 05:25 CET
was not expecting that? I obviously should have been, this is Joss we're talking about, and yet...
It was just...
Did that...
Gwuhznuh?!
uptheapples | July 19, 05:25 CET
Dunno if that sounds lame, all I know is that I love it and it hurts.
broodyangelcakes | July 19, 05:26 CET
*
*
*
*
*
*
That was nowhere close to getting tears out of me, maybe 'cause I just didn't connect to the characters on anything more than a superficial these-folks-are-funny-and-sweet way, but without getting heavily invested in 'em. I knew not to get too attatched, but if one of the main three had to bite it, would rather it be Penny than the two bringing the most comedy. And I'm not surprised it happened, though I would've rather had more fun and lighthearted evildoing. Save the pain for a sequel, y'know? Anyone else kinda feel that way? After the first and second (and I was perfectly fine with the awesome anger in the second one), I wanted more of that feeling.
Felicia Day had a sweet voice, is pretty, and I liked her speaking lines too, but...the show can still go on without her if they make more. That was a shitty death though, for her. And oh man, "Captain Hammer will save us"...ouch.
If it had just been Hammer's fault, cool, I could just hate him some more (though I love what he brings to the story and Nathan continues to rock), but it was Billy's fault almost entirely. Sure, Hammer provoked, but Billy's the one who decided to pursue villainhood and build a death ray and attempt to use it and yeah I realize the logic of the whole thing is sillyness, but if you're gonna go for drama that heavy, then the fans can take it seriously when it pertains to the dramatic parts.
[ edited by Kris on 2008-07-19 05:33 ]
Kris | July 19, 05:26 CET
I'm kind of in shock. Kind of in mourning. Definitely in awe.
(sniff!)
Nebula1400 | July 19, 05:26 CET
The only thing it needed to make it a true Whedon creation was a girl in a box.
ShimShamSam | July 19, 05:27 CET
Was that Drew Goddard in the wig at the Evil League of Evil table? Loved seeing Marti Noxon and David Fury as those ridiculous newscasters. I note that Ben Edlund is thanked in the closing credits. I wonder in what way he contributed.
And the thoroughbred of sin really was a horse!
Oh, so sad. I can't bring myself to watch it again immediately.
[ edited by phlebotinin on 2008-07-19 05:56 ]
phlebotinin | July 19, 05:27 CET
Mirit | July 19, 05:28 CET
I'm still in shock like the rest of us. Maybe some coherence in the morning.
Lioness | July 19, 05:28 CET
Racoon Boy | July 19, 05:28 CET
swanjun | July 19, 05:29 CET
embers | July 19, 05:30 CET
Lady Brick | July 19, 05:30 CET
lanora | July 19, 05:31 CET
[ edited by crazygolfa on 2008-07-19 05:32 ]
crazygolfa | July 19, 05:31 CET
Calleyzkat | July 19, 05:31 CET
Plus side, Nathan did a great job with his exit. And Felicia. And Neil.
I hate it. In the way that I love it. I can't cheer though.
korkster | July 19, 05:31 CET
(Oops, I meant the second-to-the-last song...)
[ edited by floofypooh on 2008-07-19 05:58 ]
floofypooh | July 19, 05:32 CET
So evil. Evilest League of Evil. Could've at least given her another solo first. Wow.
hacksaway | July 19, 05:32 CET
As for that other thing, well yeah, it's Joss. I should have known it would either be that, or Penny jumping through the air doing karate kicks. Still, to end a musical comedy like that. The man bends genres and does not pull punches, that's for damned sure.
AlanD | July 19, 05:33 CET
All I can say: Don't let it end this way.
(Hey. That almost rhymed. Well... It rhymed, but it had no rhythm.)
TheGamut | July 19, 05:34 CET
tabin | July 19, 05:34 CET
It was Brilliant, just Brilliant I Loved it. I'm going to have to watch it over and over now, bring on the DVD I want to purchase it now.
Great stuff Whedon brothers, Congratulations!
Crypto | July 19, 05:34 CET
Fucking brilliant. Really, truly.
Pointy | July 19, 05:35 CET
floofypooh | July 19, 05:32 CET:
Well, if you have to channel anyone, why not Sondheim?
(I think I'll go watch Sweeney Todd now.)
[ edited by AmazonGirl on 2008-07-19 05:37 ]
AmazonGirl | July 19, 05:35 CET
alittledarkcorner | July 19, 05:36 CET
One song in the middle was incredibly Sondheimesque -- I assume Joss wrote that one since he's such a huge Sondheim fan. The opening song seemed less like a musical... I'm wonding if Jed wrote that one?
At the risk of blasphemy, I'll say I was somewhat disappointed by Act III. Acts I and II were so lighthearted and tongue-in-cheek, but Act III didn't have that air of lightness. I'm all for broodiness in other Joss works like BtVS, Angel, etc., but Dr. Horrible seemed to be a more fun piece... until Act III.
SteveP | July 19, 05:36 CET
You know they're going to hold college courses on this mushortio alone.
I loved the music. Want to watch again, but I'm not ready. Makes it harder to choose a t-shirt.
Honestly, I liked Nathan's song. Sure, they were sheep, but he seemed to come to a little bit of a realization of helping people... he grew in his own way.
Craft services! *said in anger*
korkster | July 19, 05:37 CET
Her response was, "Yes, please. I’ll do craft service if they need it!"
Now I understand what she meant! :^(
floofypooh | July 19, 05:38 CET
Not sure how if I like it yet, maybe I need a few more viewings.
I can't lie though, I'm disappointed. I think Act II was my favorite, definitely.
EDIT: Update: So I watched again and really after thinking, it really couldn't have ended any other way. It was poignant and perfect. I think I was sucked into the happy-slappy disney-esque quality of the musical-ness of the first 2 acts to remember this is Joss and it has to be Joss-y. It caught me off guard and I freaked out a little bit. Who would have thought your typical supervillain-musical would give you so much upon which to ponder and reflect?
In the end, I loved it. LOVED IT!! And I want to thank Joss & co and the cast and crew for their numerous talents!! THANKS!
[ edited by Linnea1928 on 2008-07-19 06:01 ]
Linnea1928 | July 19, 05:39 CET
Succatash | July 19, 05:39 CET
Silly me!
The One True b!X | July 19, 05:40 CET
crazygolfa | July 19, 05:40 CET
ShadyLane | July 19, 05:40 CET
Canonical | July 19, 05:41 CET
That was honestly just amazing and the best ever!!
I so loved this and I want more and I don't care how you un-kill Penny, just get her back and make more and more and more of this. No, not a Broadway musical trapped in New York.. maybe a full length feature dvd musical... something that the whole world can enjoy.
Thank you so much for the wonderful adventure. Much love to all the Whedons and Cos and the Actors and everyone.
Kisses
NuVanessa | July 19, 05:41 CET
okelay | July 19, 05:42 CET
Thanks J,J,M and Z!
And can the Emmy voters just watch this instead and just give NPH the damn award already?. Sheesh!
TamaraC | July 19, 05:42 CET
Second act: Better.
Third act: Disappointing.
Overall: Good...but...just good.
BAFfler | July 19, 05:43 CET
witch_kat | July 19, 05:43 CET
Then again, I'm a bugger for downbeat endings.
SoddingNancyTribe | July 19, 05:44 CET
Loose Deckplate | July 19, 05:44 CET
okelay | July 19, 05:44 CET
And I, too, heard a good bit of Sondheim influence.
(I liked that Bad Horse's real name -- if one can believe the credits -- was Dobber.)
palehorse | July 19, 05:45 CET
In a thematic, story sense it worked perfectly. Thinking back on the whole thing, the ending seems entirely inevitable. But it's hard to remember that when it still feels kinda like you took a blow to the chest :(
It's important to note that nothing I said above will in any way dissuade me from wanting a soundtrack, DVD, and sequel, right now this minute! See how he/they get me?
BlackEyedGirl | July 19, 05:45 CET
Ed R | July 19, 05:46 CET
SoddingNancyTribe | July 19, 05:46 CET
Frak me, hacksaway. I didn't even see this the first time through.
The One True b!X | July 19, 05:46 CET
Please, Joss? Just one happy ending?
Genia | July 19, 05:46 CET
LiLi | July 19, 05:47 CET
I sent Felicia a message that pretty much sums up my thoughts right now...Joss clearly has issues with dirt on the carpets, because he's always yanking the rug out from under us...
As one of the little people (crew guys) who got hit really hard by the WGA strike, I have to give props for doing something like this. If he wanted to make a statement, this is the way to do it. No real studio involvement? Check. Low budget? Done. Debuting it independenlty on a fledgling medium and focusing on a less-than-mainstream genre? Gutsy and with gusto.
Best of all? It looks and plays as well as anything produced on TV.
There is a reason Joss is up there on a pedestal. Neil, Nathan, Felicia...all heroes to New Media.
Pardon me, I think I need to go watch it again...
Anyone else already playing the how-will-the-sequel-work game?
[ edited by zeitgeist -signature removed- on 2008-07-19 05:52 ]
SuperScottNJ | July 19, 05:47 CET
jubal lives | July 19, 05:47 CET
Ok, but other than that, I'm speechless. Somehow I'll hold off until I can purchase this on iTunes in the morning. Um, something else incoherent. Wow.
flak | July 19, 05:48 CET
maxsummers | July 19, 05:50 CET
"You notice each Whedonverse ending gets bleaker and bleaker?"
Do you mean as far as the characters dying, like a person ending ? Or the conclusions of each series/film ? I'm not gonna tackle every single character death (Fred's soul-destroyed-in-the-fires-of-Illyria's-rebirth I would say is the bleakest Whedon death. Given that souls exist beyond a shadow of a doubt in the Buffyverse, it means she was completely destroyed unless you consider Illyria's trace memories of her a form of surviving)...but as far as each project goes...
"Chosen" we got Anya dying (that hurt the most), a bunch of Potentials dying (okay "Millie" dying was depressing too), Spike dying (unless you knew ahead of time he was gonna be in Angel Season 5, then not quite so sad), and the end of the town...but otherwise it ended on a hopeful note.
The Angel finale (I can't believe I forget the ep title), I dunno if it should be included, since it wasn't the intended series finale (then again, the comics for both Buffyverse properties complicate this whole "ending" thing anyway). But since it's what we got...Lindsay dead, Lorne depressed and wanting to leave, Eve...who cares...I can't remember if anything else really sad happened...I dunno, I think Buffy's finale beats it for bleakness (c'mon, they would've beat that impending doom...apparently they did or are in the process of doing so, if you've read the Season 6 comic. I haven't).
Firefly had "Objects in Space", an episode full of hope, so no bleak there. Serenity counts as the proper/makeshift finale to that though, so yeah, you've got Book, Wash, and a whole lotta people dead...It did end on a life-goes-on hopeful not though, like Buffy.
Anya's death in Buffy gutted me, so I think that wins for personal bleakest series/movie finale (sure, she got 1000 years, but).
If we're including comics, objectively, Fray ended pretty bleakly as well. With the reveal of who killed Loo and the reveal about Urkonn...she was kinda left completely alone there at the end, with the exception of maybe her sister having her back.
I know Joss frequently switches tone/gears in many of his projects, but those are all dramas at their heart with comedic dosages. Dr. Horrible is comedy/nuttyness that evolved into a drama the more we saw of it, which...yeah, I just don't get as attatched so easily when it's presented that way.
Kris | July 19, 05:50 CET
(and I'm assuming you've all seen it if you've gotten this far, but SPOILERS)
SCREW THAT.
I knew . . . I KNEW Joss was gonna kill off Penny. He ALWAYS kills off one of the beloved good guys. He doesn't NOT know how!! It's his ONLY PLOT TWIST.
I loved Angel and I would KILL (seriously, try me) to have more Firefly, so really, to anyone who might take exception to this little rant, I have all the love in the world for Mr. Whedon for creating wonderful worlds . . . but can't he write ONE THING with a gorram happy ending?! JUST ONE. This had it written all over it! Cute, spoofy, funny, sweet . . . it would have been lovely! But no, "One Trick" Whedon has to kill off the sweet, innocent, flawless homeless shelter girl to teach us the same lesson we learned in every other piece of work he's done.
Everyone who was surprised that she died: HOW? It's the same trick he pulled in Serenity. And three times in the last season of Angel. And how many times in Buffy! I would have been surprised if everyone LIVED . . . pleasantly surprised!
So, review: I loved this entire little online flick. Brilliant. Until the end. Then it got predictable. And then SUCKED.
Happily Ever After. TRY IT. Seriously.
Batman1016 | July 19, 05:51 CET
"You notice each Whedonverse ending gets bleaker and bleaker?"
Also, each Whedonverse thing gets shorter and shorter!
Buffy got 7 years...
Angel got 5....
Firefly got less than one, and a movie....
Dr. Horrible gof 45 minutes....
I just hope they don't say, cancel Dollhouse 15 minutes into the show. :-P
thespian | July 19, 05:51 CET
The final shot - kills me dead. I fucking love it.
crossoverman | July 19, 05:51 CET
I know we shared some great times together. Like the "Objects in Space", "Doppelgangland" and more, but I think it's time we go our separate ways.
It's not you, it's me. I just can't take much more misery and heartache. It's just too much. You create such wonderful and truly engaging characters. I get attached to them, and then, you kill them. It's for my own good. It affects my sunny disposition.
Best of luck in the future,
crazygolfa
PS: You know I'm a sucker for punishment, when does Dollhouse begin.
crazygolfa | July 19, 05:51 CET
The One True b!X | July 19, 05:51 CET
Nightmare -- ha!
First time through I was devastated. Second time through I could only think of what comes next. There needs to be more to the story. This would act as a great setup to the story of Dr. Horrible and the Evil League of Evil. (Leading to his eventual, painful redemption of course.)
If I think of it as a prologue it doesn't hurt so much.
Oh, and I hate the homeless
ness problem, too.
witaria | July 19, 05:51 CET
So...the end. I seem to be thinking that it returning to the blog at the end makes it feel to me as though it never happened. He's sans garb after all. I'm sure someone else can straighten me out on the subtleties I'm probably not picking up.
sportforredneck | July 19, 05:52 CET
That said, I've turned quite a few people onto the series, and some of them have just been Jossed for the very first time.
[ edited by highandrandom on 2008-07-19 06:08 ]
highandrandom | July 19, 05:52 CET
I loved Acts I and II, and this one seemed to be a disconnect with Act III somewhere. Where did all the lighthearted dialogue go? Usually I feel more balance, but I just felt depressed after watching.
Maybe once time passes and I watch the DVD, my opinion will change. I hope so.
piggiesfly yay | July 19, 05:52 CET
But then I remembered that this is Joss, and that would have been a cheap cop out.
zz9 | July 19, 05:53 CET
Batman1016 | July 19, 05:55 CET
As for how the sequel will work, frankly, I don't think Penny's death really would hurt the main story at all if they made another one. She told Dr. Horrible in the second act that it's not that things get better, it's just that everything happens, and worse things happen than happen to you. That implacable, not optimism, than blind hope had to go if he was to be an actual villain.
The ending was good, and it didn't hit me in the gut as much as it did other people in this thread. Frankly the darker turn that was starting last act was more interesting than the high quality, but slight, comedy of act 1. Techincally, I have problems with how the final bit before Penny died was handled (I found it oddly muddled, and inevitable in a more writerly way than a firm dramatic one,) but his killing her, however accidently, was sound.
I don't have the same "downer" feeling as many people do when characters in these types of things die. Especially a character we've only watched for such a short time. But that's my two cents.
[ edited by rabid on 2008-07-19 05:56 ]
rabid | July 19, 05:55 CET
But this didn't leave me satisfied, either. Just very sad.
Which I guess is the point.
It felt like kind of a non sequitur. I think it will feel less like one, once I watch all three parts together. Which I absolutely do not have the resolve for tonight. Maybe Sunday. (I'm having a pretty pretty princess party tomorrow, and somehow I feel like watching this will not put me in the right mood for that.)
Kiba | July 19, 05:56 CET
witch_kat | July 19, 05:43 CET
What's all this we?
I'm perfectly fine with the ending, pain and all.
In fact, if it'd been a "happy" ending, I might've been kind of disappointed.
Look, Dr. Horrible is a villian. A low-rent, bargain basement villian--with a crush on a girl--but a villian none the less.
Capt Hammer is a "hero". He's a flat-out jackass, but he's still the "hero".
Dr Horrible is trying to get into the Evil League of Evil. Not the Salvation Army. And he's willing to do anything to get in.
He was going to kill Capt. Hammer, who kind of did deserve it, but still. Killing. To get into an elite Club.
In the end, Dr. Horrible got what he wanted. But a price had to be paid.
It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye.
I'm just sayin'.
[ edited by AmazonGirl on 2008-07-19 05:57 ]
AmazonGirl | July 19, 05:56 CET
Angel's going out (heh) swinging, the gang had their last good day, they're ready, and they're charging forward - momentum, positivity.
By contrast, nobody has what s/he wants at the end of Dr. H - Capt. Hammer's a basket case, Penny's dead, and Dr. H. had been made aware of the price he's paid for getting what he thought he wanted. That's bleak. And brilliant.
SoddingNancyTribe | July 19, 05:57 CET
Tonya J | July 19, 05:57 CET
TheGamut | July 19, 05:57 CET
I just said the same thing to my son. It's like a song from "Sweeney Todd," or the witch's lament in "Into the Woods."
Nebula1400 | July 19, 05:58 CET
Funny how we got THAT out of the writers' strike.
ahem.
Casira | July 19, 05:58 CET
I immediately watched it again, knowing what was to happen, and the tonal change was not handled sloppily. It worked perfectly. I think people weren't initially approaching this as the vicious social commentary that it is, and that might account for some disappointment. I mean, this sucker cuts into society in a deep, deep way. It chastises the media, hero worshipers, people who aspire to empty positions, everyone who watches on the sidelines. I mean, no one is left unscathed by Dr. Horrible.
It is a brilliant work, and the best film of 2008. (Yes, I've seen The Dark Knight. I was not expecting Dr. Horrible to trump it, but...well, Joss has a funny way of getting around expectations.)
I really wanted Captain Hammer to die. He's the villain of the piece, and I can think of few villains more utterly loathsome.
But, hey, there were still hysterical moments. Basically anything with Captain Hammer was fried gold.
Oh, and I'll be transcribing the lyrics again. E-mail me if you want them.
UnpluggedCrazy | July 19, 05:59 CET
Even without the massive jolt to the heart, it just didn't seem to pack the same kind of punch as the other acts. *shrugs* And Dobber (Bad Horse) didn't look very menacing. :P Nathan sung well, though. :D
*sits in silence*
Braeden Fireheart | July 19, 06:00 CET
I love it. Now I want a sequel.
electricspacegirl | July 19, 06:00 CET
I don't think that means it never happened. I think it means that he got everything he supposedly wanted, he's a feared and celebrated supervillain, but it's all basically an act now, one that he's trapped himself in.
That last shot is who he really is now, hence the lack of villain garb.
The One True b!X | July 19, 06:01 CET
cabri | July 19, 06:02 CET
But there is no question that I loved this, seriously loved Loved LOVED this! And I will have to buy the DVD for everyone I know!
Thank you Joss & friends!
embers | July 19, 06:03 CET
Having watched a second time, the ending does seem fitting. Dr Horrible(I almost called him The Doctor...) got what he wanted. and like many people before him, he realized it wasn't what he hoped. but he can't go back. It's a great setup for a sequel as well. I'll be patiently (ok,not so much) waiting.
okelay | July 19, 06:03 CET
AlanD | July 19, 06:03 CET
And man, I'm really really sad...like, Anya/Wash/Joyce's death sad.
maxsummers | July 19, 06:04 CET
To the contrary.
The One True b!X | July 19, 06:04 CET
ETA: That will probably come later.
zeitgeist | July 19, 06:05 CET
That last shot was perfect. Almost the best moment in the entire thing. Amazing.
palehorse | July 19, 06:05 CET
Both Amazongirl and UnpluggedCrazy said different aspects of how I feel more eloquently than I could. I think that a work with some honest to god meaning to it will last longer than if it ended happily for Dr.Horrible. Penny in a lot of ways to me felt like an archetype. A combination of the comicbook cliche model girlfriend and a almost unrealisticly hope filled optimist. If Dr.Horrible had given up his quest to make it as a villain to end up with her, I don't really know what the story would have been about dramatically.
rabid | July 19, 06:06 CET
Kiba | July 19, 06:08 CET
Loose Deckplate | July 19, 06:08 CET
C. A. Bridges | July 19, 06:09 CET
jubal lives | July 19, 06:09 CET
Nah, Dollhouse is going to be all hugs and puppies, laugh a minute, happy-fest. Trust me.
/Or maybe not...
zz9 | July 19, 06:10 CET
Come on, this is a musical about a supervillain. There are only two possible endings. It ends badly for him, or it ends well for him, which is bad, because he's a villain.
Joss chose C, all of the above. Brilliant. Heartbreaking. Very Joss.
jsnell | July 19, 06:10 CET
Some may,eventually, after years and years of fight and suffering, but it is still rare.I wonder if Penny would've accepted Billy knowing his alter ego was Dr Horrible.
okelay | July 19, 06:11 CET
C. A. Bridges | July 19, 06:11 CET
MAN!
i mean, nomatter how much you say "it's joss, of COURSE something like that's gonna happen", its still a shock and horror. not sure how i feel about ti yet; act 2 was better musicly, but man...
miramel | July 19, 06:11 CET
That last shot was perfect. Almost the best moment in the entire thing. Amazing.
palehorse | July 19, 06:05 CET
I liked his new Evil League of Evil duds.
No more white. He's lost his "virginity". The red coat and black gloves were a spot-on choice.
Someone here mentioned that it's an origin story. Absolutely.
And that last shot of him on his "Blog" was heartbreaking.
AmazonGirl | July 19, 06:12 CET
Bad Horse was so bad.
nutterbudgie | July 19, 06:12 CET
Penny bringing the frozen yogurts to the laundromat, waiting for Billy Buddy, who never comes. It just kills me.
phlebotinin | July 19, 06:13 CET
The Hammer groupies transformation is also confusing to me. Sure, they had a problem with Penny. But I took that to be envy. But their becoming Dr. Hammer groupies evokes a fickle fandom connotation I wouldn't associate with the whedonverse.
peacemonger | July 19, 06:13 CET
BlackEyedGirl | July 19, 06:13 CET
And the last scene is just killing me.
maxsummers | July 19, 06:13 CET
Happily ever after? Find such fairytles in your local library under L for Lies :)
You know that Whedon will always send you on a rollarcoaster. Otherwise it's just not worth it.
There's no way Whedon would let this be the end. He knows that he has created a Horrible Horrible monster and there's money to be made and rabid fans are rabid.
NuVanessa | July 19, 06:14 CET
Yes. When the paramedics carted off Penny and he sang, "I'm fine," it gave me the shivers.
witaria | July 19, 06:14 CET
Loved the last bit in the Evil League of Evil Headquarters. And, of course, the final shot of the blog.
Sigh.
Knuckleball | July 19, 06:14 CET
UnpluggedCrazy said:
"I think people weren't initially approaching this as the vicious social commentary that it is, and that might account for some disappointment. I mean, this sucker cuts into society in a deep, deep way. It chastises the media, hero worshipers, people who aspire to empty positions, everyone who watches on the sidelines. I mean, no one is left unscathed by Dr. Horrible."
I loved that aspect of it throughout all three acts, I'm sure it'll continue if they do sequels. They set it up nice with Billy blogging about it and hating on "the status quo", so it's in the story too beyond just the omniscient storytellers (brothers Whedon) telling us what they think, very cool.
I just think it could've ended slightly differently and still been effective. I liked it a lot though. Acts 1 and 2 are untouchable and I loved the humor of Act 3 as well in addition to a couple of the songs.
Kris | July 19, 06:14 CET
I'm curious as to what 'Dead Bowie's' evil villain claim to fame would be. Fooling people into believing that he's really David Bowie and then charging them for autographs and photos?
NikkiSixx | July 19, 06:14 CET
So, yes, it was incredibly sad, and shocking, and Act III was not so lighthearted, but now that I can watch it all as one, I really do love it.
Also, Nathan is HI-larious! and NPH gives me chills like no other. Yikes...
nicetomeatyou | July 19, 06:15 CET
zeitgeist | July 19, 06:15 CET
Absolutely the best moment of the entire thing - and it makes me forgive Act I for being a bit bloated and not terribly engaging to me. This last moment gives the whole story depth - and the songs in Act III are probably the best of the whole series.
When does the DVD come out?
crossoverman | July 19, 06:15 CET
Heh, I said much the same thing on Twitter a bit ago. All those poor cosplayers scrambling now.
Can someone confirm something to me? Dr Horrible knows the weapon's going to backfire, right?
He does appear to be trying to warn Hammer, yeah.
The One True b!X | July 19, 06:17 CET
phlebotinin | July 19, 06:17 CET
here's my 2 cents before i go off and have a good cry
1, I SHOULD"VE known!!! Jenny Calander, joyce, anya, fred, spike, tara, walsh, the list is endless of people we've loved then lost. (doesn;t make this easier)
2. Yes i know it fits in well with the story, to make him a REAL villan not just a wanna be joss needed to kill his soul. God knows i've seen it happen at work, people work so hard to become surgeons at the cost of their family, then they loose everything they actually care about and have nothing but their career so they pour themselves into that, so i get him now pouring himself into what;s left (still not any easier)
3. i'm still sad :( damn you whedon you always leave me in this sate
4. how are we going to have sing-a-longs with an ending like that???
ok i'm off to have a good cry, then some frozen yougurt (which i've been craving since act 2 aired). then i might attempt a rewatch if i'm not still in shock
April_fool82 | July 19, 06:17 CET
I want that red lab coat.
Loved the grr argh at the end. And why wouldn't they leave things open? Leaves them with a world of opportunity to pursue if it's as successful as I think it has been. *waits for international itunes so I can pay them their dues, literally*
Ivalaine | July 19, 06:17 CET
Succatash | July 19, 06:18 CET
swoopy | July 19, 06:19 CET
whedongeek | July 19, 06:19 CET
zeitgeist | July 19, 06:19 CET
I don't want to do that just now. I'd rather just enjoy this third one a few more times, and then when the DVD comes out watch it again that way. I imagine it will track much better that way.
rabid | July 19, 06:19 CET
Of course he can bring her back! He's a mad scientist.
But you know she'll come back all messed up & he'll have to kill her again and then we'll all be really miserable. :)
jcs | July 19, 06:19 CET
swoopy | July 19, 06:19 CET
And Rosebud is a sled.
AmazonGirl | July 19, 06:20 CET
witch_kat | July 19, 06:20 CET
I need the soundtrack, now.
Definitely very Jossian.
Loved the cameos.
So sad that it ended, I want more...
Numfar PTB | July 19, 06:20 CET
"It´s ok, Captain Hammer was...". What's the last word?
maxsummers | July 19, 06:20 CET
I loved the ending. It made it real. We all make sacrifices for our biggest dreams.
feliceg | July 19, 06:20 CET
The One True b!X | July 19, 06:22 CET
zeitgeist | July 19, 06:22 CET
shinygroovyj | July 19, 06:22 CET
Pure amazingness Joss.
Way to go.
Lockescythe | July 19, 06:23 CET
discordia | July 19, 06:23 CET
DVD now please :)
JadeHand | July 19, 06:23 CET
crazygolfa | July 19, 06:23 CET
But that's my POINT: Serenity's end was a rollercoaster. Cordy dying in Angel, and then Fred, and Wesley at the end . . . THAT was a rollercoaster. This was PREDICTABLE. It didn't have impact (at least, not for me), and it was so SIMPLE.
I'm a (admittedly amateur, but I'm told very talented) writer. I can write a tragic death. That's easy. It's writing an improbable way for everything to work out and everyone be fine that's hard. And being a work of Whedon, THAT would have been the surprise.
Sure, it's an origin, it's tragic and beautiful. But I'm really just tired of tragic and beautiful from Joss. I wanted fully lighthearted and fun with a few serious moments. It would have been a change of pace.
Maybe I'm just still pissy about Wash.
Batman1016 | July 19, 06:23 CET
Thanks zeitgeist!
[ edited by maxsummers on 2008-07-19 06:24 ]
maxsummers | July 19, 06:23 CET
April_fool82 | July 19, 06:24 CET
[Cartman] Oh my god, they killed Penny! Those bastards.[/Cartman] :)
[ edited by crazygolfa on 2008-07-19 06:26 ]
crazygolfa | July 19, 06:25 CET
That's what Sugarshock was for. Well, maybe minus the serious moments.
The One True b!X | July 19, 06:25 CET
Ivalaine | July 19, 06:25 CET
I got the definite impression he wasn't pleading for his own life there but saying something else, so that fits.
BTW, how awesome that Hammer finished his song when he unfroze.
[ edited by witaria on 2008-07-19 06:27 ]
witaria | July 19, 06:25 CET
Oh, sure. I posted it first!
The One True b!X | July 19, 06:25 CET
b!X - we were almost simul-posting on that one :)
zeitgeist | July 19, 06:26 CET
Stealing baby brothers. (I tried to trade my brother to the Goblin King once. He was a no-show. LAME.)
Kiba | July 19, 06:27 CET
The One True b!X | July 19, 06:29 CET
SoddingNancyTribe | July 19, 06:30 CET
Didn't they change hosts or servers or something the other day? After we crashed the old database with comments for Act I?
Batman1016 | July 19, 06:31 CET
Oh, sure. I posted it first!
Oh, sorry, didn't see! Thanks theonetruebix! =]
maxsummers | July 19, 06:31 CET
By the way, Captain Hammer reminds me of Zap Rannigan from Futurama.
polemarch | July 19, 06:31 CET
ETA that if I click "Check for Purchases..." it tells me that all purchases have been downloaded. And, obviously, they have not.
[ edited by theonetruebix on 2008-07-19 06:34 ]
The One True b!X | July 19, 06:31 CET
And. Wow.
It's amazing, how you can go from laughing hysterically to actually crying and gasping. Wow.
That was...amazing.
And um...the red coat and black gloves? Hot. Like Whoa.
But seriously, Joss, THANK YOU. Thank you for both making me laugh and breaking my heart. This was phenomenal.
H_L
HowlingLupe | July 19, 06:32 CET
punctuation will be better in the future (no promises about spelling though)
April_fool82 | July 19, 06:33 CET
zeitgeist | July 19, 06:34 CET
LilyMars | July 19, 06:34 CET
So after July 19th, we will no longer be able to watch?
Angelica | July 19, 06:35 CET
Sometimes iTunes can be laggy. I've noticed this with other subscriptions I've had before.
[ edited by phlebotinin on 2008-07-19 06:39 ]
phlebotinin | July 19, 06:35 CET
"It's the ache that makes it great"
Unless you didn't ache because you didn't feel all that connected to the characters beyond "she's sweet, he's funny, and he's funny, and their singing is all fun and good". But I realize from the reactions here that that's not a problem with the piece so much as mine and a very few others' reactions to it.
I dunno, I guess I wanted more fluff (well, not fluff...they could still savage society's social mores...I just could've done without the heavy, I guess). You know what I mean.
Heh, someone said they think this is the best thing of 2008 (so far) over The Dark Knight. I won't debate that, but maybe it's because of The Dark Knight that I feel like I could've used something less serious in the end of Dr. Horrible's third act. Just bad timing of what I've chosen to view so close together, I guess.
Note: I've never complained about any of Joss' Plot Points of Pain (various likable one-offs killed, Jenny, Angel--hey notice how no one major and likeable died in Buffy Seasons 3 and 4--Doyle, Joyce, Tara, Anya, Cordelia, Fred, Book, Wash--all were sound decisions, IMO...well, maybe not Cordelia in retrospect, given the donkey exit episode she was given, despite it having two or three worthwhile moments/scenes). This is the first time I've complained about a Whedon death/turn for the serious. Just making the point that I'm not a constant bitcher.
Kris | July 19, 06:35 CET
whedongeek | July 19, 06:36 CET
He does appear to be trying to warn Hammer, yeah.
Thanks! Issue resolved, I go back to rewatching. It's definitely easier to appreciate when I'm not so busy going "dammnit, I needed that heart".
BlackEyedGirl | July 19, 06:36 CET
Also, I find it hilarious that we spent several days discussing who Bad Horse could be only to find out it's an ACTUAL HORSE. Good one.
EvilFirePixie8 | July 19, 06:37 CET
The One True b!X | July 19, 06:37 CET
Joss and company are so talented. I loved a lot of the music and the writing. However, if Joss is going to write drama as if it is a comic book, I am worried for Dollhouse. /rant
newcj | July 19, 06:38 CET
cabri | July 19, 06:38 CET
JoAnnP38 | July 19, 06:39 CET
whedongeek | July 19, 06:39 CET
zeitgeist | July 19, 06:39 CET
The One True b!X | July 19, 06:42 CET
zeitgeist | July 19, 06:42 CET
C. A. Bridges | July 19, 06:42 CET
I do have to admit I really like having that as Penny's final line. Just that little extra blow to already tragic events for Billy.
rabid | July 19, 06:43 CET
whedongeek | July 19, 06:45 CET
Click here to go to the site.
[ edited by zeitgeist -fixed the broken link- on 2008-07-19 06:48 ]
Thank you Zeitgeist; I was trying to fix it when my browser froze.
[ edited by floofypooh on 2008-07-19 06:52 ]
floofypooh | July 19, 06:46 CET
crazygolfa | July 19, 06:46 CET
Oh god and Penny brought him the frozen yogurt...
TheGamut that is so true the covering his eyes thing I hadn't picked up on that. Wow.
I don't know alot about musicals but I really like the ones I've seen and I thought the last song was a bit Sweeny-esque too and I mean that in a good tragic/epic sort of way.
I liked that all the Acts and their songs were so different, I dig all of them. The comedic and light hearted ones and the angrier and darker ones(which I love the darkness) plus they were all absolutely compelling as were Felicia, Nathan and NPH. Especially the last Dr Horrible ones, Neil and those songs blew me away.
The songs in this Act were fantastic. Plus Neil, Felicia and Nathan all rule!
Joss and co are just amazing storytellers, after such a short time I care so much about these characters I want to give them all a big hug now ugh...Can't wait for the DVD, soundtrack and or future sequels.
Thank you everyone involved the whole thing is brilliant.
broodyangelcakes | July 19, 06:46 CET
I was very angry at the end of Serenity. Later, I was able to see the artistic merits, but right at first, there was no way.
I feel that way now. A little angry. At Joss. But I might get over it.
whedongeeky | July 19, 06:46 CET
NuVanessa | July 19, 06:46 CET
newcj - I don't think the lack of a "real ending" is in any way a comic-book trait. Many if not all novels end with a resolution, but not any kind of permanent one. Because that's how stories work, IMHO: relating one or more episodes in a life, and then leaving the rest open. Although, sure, given the episodic form of comic-books, they do tend to imply a continuing story, much like a soap opera, rather than a one-act play. (But, for a counter-example of a comic-book that does have an "ending," see "The Wake," the final chapter of Gaiman's Sandman). In any event, I think the ending of Dr. Horrible works terrifically well, even if there's never another minute shot.
SoddingNancyTribe | July 19, 06:47 CET
I found it quite satisfying in the sense it is a musical about a supervillain. And he did succeeded, but there was loss. Not going too much into spoiler zone, but it does remind me of aspects from The Dark Knight.
It's funny how it's assumed that Billy really wanted to show Penny his evil side, but at the end wished she wasn't there to see his actions. It's tragic that Penny was clearly getting along with Billy, and longed for their laundry meetings with frozen yogurt.
And now "Captain Hammer will save save us...", will go into history along with "I'm leaf in the wind", what Tara says to Willow when she gets shot.
If people complained that Sugarshock, was too un-Jossian, for being so out there and kind of loud and even perky, those people shouldn't complain after Dr. Horrible, which will hurt you in the gut, in only 45 minutes.
I do wonder the effect of those final events to Billy / Dr. Horrible, the ending is quite ambiguous into this subject. We see him entering the halls of ELE, but we also get that shot of Billy uncostumed in front of the blog view.
Numfar PTB | July 19, 06:47 CET
Does this mean the only way I'll get Act III is by purchasing it again? I feel bad enough supporting DRM already...
HydeMe | July 19, 06:48 CET
NuVanessa | July 19, 06:48 CET
Do we get to appear in Dr. Horrible 2?
The One True b!X | July 19, 06:49 CET
Having rewatched it about 3 times, I feel about the same way as I did when I first watched it. I don't have issue with anything in it, and I love Docter Horrible's song after freeze raying Captain Hammer, but the music isn't as great as Act 2.
9/10 though
10/10 for the entire three acts.
[ edited by rabid on 2008-07-19 06:53 ]
rabid | July 19, 06:49 CET
Nebula1400 | July 19, 06:49 CET
"BTW, how awesome that Hammer finished his song when he unfroze."
Hah, loved that.
theonetruebix said:
"That's what Sugarshock was for."
Ah, Sugarshock slipped my mind. Well, then, um...fine, I was hoping for some new live action light-hearted fun from Joss, not on the page.
crazygolfa said:
"I'm surprised no one has done this yet.
[Cartman] Oh my god, they killed Penny! Those bastards.[/Cartman] :)"
I think it's just 'cause South Park ain't the cultural phenomenon it once was (and even then it never reached the recognization level of The Simpsons, which to my mind is unfortunate). The only time people remember it is when the media report on something controversial and/or hilarious it did (Tom Cruise/in the closet ep, World Of Warcraft spoof, killing Chef). So, Kenny jokes, not really at the forefront of folks' minds and maybe not deemed as funny/amusing as they used to be by many. I still love that show, but I really don't catch the new episodes much. Moreso the older repeats, and I was renting the seasons for a while in a vain and extremely slow attempt to catch up.
Kris | July 19, 06:49 CET
jlp | July 19, 06:50 CET
kishi | July 19, 06:51 CET
Thank you once again Mr. Whedon.
marvelknight616 | July 19, 06:51 CET
Yep, and probably die from pie-related injuries with cups of frozen yogurt in hand.
zeitgeist | July 19, 06:54 CET
The One True b!X | July 19, 06:57 CET
zeitgeist | July 19, 06:59 CET
crazygolfa | July 19, 07:00 CET
Nebula1400 | July 19, 07:00 CET
[ edited by GimpyD on 2008-07-19 07:07 ]
GimpyD | July 19, 07:01 CET
Could you please explain more about how the last moment in Act 3 relates to why Horrible now covers his eyes. I find that interesting.
NuVanessa | July 19, 07:02 CET
Whedon, you bastard!
mouse | July 19, 07:04 CET
I really thought he would kill Captain Hammer, get rejected by a horrified Penny, and then go all dark because of that. But I guess Whedon just can't tell a story without killing off the nice girl love interest. Whatever. I still love the first two acts.
RaisedByMongrels | July 19, 07:05 CET
But I guess there's that other Whedon rule.. those that die are doomed to return.. probably, maybe.
Awesome job Horrible team, watched all the credits, waiting for Penny to pop up or something, but had the ME monster instead.. which is honestly almost as good ;)
Oh and big smile to see David and Marti!
[ edited by alexa on 2008-07-19 07:07 ]
alexa | July 19, 07:05 CET
Kiba | July 19, 07:08 CET
It's not that he became the villain, or even imo that he believes he is responsible for her death. Rather it's as Penny said in Act 2. Everything Happens. Doctor Horrible says not to him. There you go.
He was not in control in the end. To get to where he wanted to be, to become a villain, he had to pay a cost that he realises in retrospect was far greater than the reward.
[ edited by rabid on 2008-07-19 07:10 ]
rabid | July 19, 07:09 CET
Sly | July 19, 07:10 CET
Tonya J | July 19, 07:10 CET
SoddingNancyTribe | July 19, 07:13 CET
I also believe that the format of a musical calls for this kind of operatic arc. Musicals in many ways are used to show emotion from the stories in grandiose ways. To accentuate emotion.
Musicals often, by their nature, are operatic. The comedy is more grandiose, the light moments are more whimsical, and the dark moments have barely a hint of light. That disconnect from one act to the other as the story got darker is only natural when each story beat is aggrandized by the music.
rabid | July 19, 07:14 CET
Bravo, Mr. Whedon and friends!
And since it is well after 2 AM on the east coast, I will also say good night.
floofypooh | July 19, 07:16 CET
I think a messed up Penny would actually suit Dr. Horrible now...
anyway, act III...not quite sure. As much as I hate the whole "show the end at the beginning" narrative, I think I would have preferred it in this case. Then we all could have enjoyed the origin story for what it was, rather than be completely assaulted by the ending. Cause I did love the ending. Just not in that order.
Vespa | July 19, 07:17 CET
Firefly Flanatic | July 19, 07:17 CET
cabri | July 19, 07:18 CET
You don't need a permanent resolution to have a satisfying ending to a story. I too have read a few novels over the years and have an understanding of the idea of leaving some things open. That is one reason I have been specifically talking about a "satisfying ending"; one where the audience is given a place to stop that fulfills something in them. It could be done musically or otherwise. This could have had that, but IMO it doesn't, obviously others disagree. I realize that it is almost certainly Joss being all experimental and that I will be held in contempt by some as looking for a pat Walt Disney ending. Trust me when I say, that's not it. I assume Joss wanted it to trail off leaving a dismal empty feeling since that was Dr. Horrible's state of mind, but to me that was just totally unsatisfying, just like most of the comic books have been. I notice other people up thread calling this a cliffhanger and I can see why. I never considered Not Fade Away to be a cliffhanger, I would not call this one either, it is just an introduction to a story that may never be told. I liked it up until the moment the credits rolled and then a said, "That's it?" and there was an echo in the room as my son said the same thing.
When we saw Ironman, my son asked me if I liked it. I said it was a good introduction and set-up for the sequel. That is how I felt about this. That is how I felt about most of the Buffy comics. Unfortunately they don't even know if they will make a sequel of this, and the Buffy comics are just going on and on. I have a solution for the Buffy comics, I have stopped reading them until they are finished, and then will read them all together. If Joss ever does a sequel of this, I may have to do the same thing.
newcj | July 19, 07:18 CET
okelay | July 19, 07:21 CET
The One True b!X | July 19, 07:21 CET
alexreager | July 19, 07:21 CET
zeitgeist | July 19, 07:22 CET
People have the dumb. (I mean that affectionately, since I've been referring to myself that way all week.)
[ edited by theonetruebix on 2008-07-19 07:23 ]
The One True b!X | July 19, 07:22 CET
Ledfeather | July 19, 07:23 CET
alexa | July 19, 07:25 CET
Yes I completely agree.
Also when Captain Hammer is about to use the Death Ray, some people are asking what Dr Horrible was trying to say. I might be wrong but I just figured Dr Horrible could see that it was clearly malfunctioning after being tossed across the floor. There were red sparks and stuff. IMO Dr Horrible was realising himself that the death ray would now have unpredictable effects and was probably trying to warn Cpt Hammer of that . Plus someone mentioned above about Dr Horrible hesitating whilst Captain Hammer was frozen. It did look like he was having second thoughts I thought he might not do it, and was going to lower the weapon, especially when his thoughts turned to Penny and what she would think of it but anyway all part of the story now and Dr Horrible's own layers.(cheese not included)
Sorry for the ramblings.
Oh edit just to add something about the above love for the parting shot. Just that IMO Dr Horrible is still capable of caring, in the future he just has to be willing to let that in. The fact that he shut down like that, It could just be me but I think he felt too much, and then nothing. That he sort of broke, and embraced the Evilness, thinking that's all he has now, plus he is Dr Horrible. But I think he can find redemption if he wants it, he hasn't really done anything terrible yet. Suffering a great loss, and his new found Evil League of Evil status, I think could lead to an interesting struggle within. Promise to shut up now.
[ edited by broodyangelcakes on 2008-07-19 07:50 ]
broodyangelcakes | July 19, 07:25 CET
okelay | July 19, 07:25 CET
SoddingNancyTribe | July 19, 07:27 CET
I had an internal argument with myself about Joss keeping in light vs the Jossian character death occurring and if so who? Though It darkened at the end of Act II I found the tone shift pretty abrupt in Act III. However, I loved the very end and the last shot was a killer. I think it's brilliant as an origin story, as commented on earlier by jcs.
Charmuse | July 19, 07:29 CET
I mean moreso than usual.
Now I know how Zaboo felt. Zaboo!
AlanD | July 19, 07:31 CET
Let's not get creepy now.
The One True b!X | July 19, 07:34 CET
Must hold back... sarcastic... reply ;).
zeitgeist | July 19, 07:35 CET
When the only tool you know how to use is a hammer, all problems start to look like nails.
GrrrlRomeo | July 19, 07:35 CET
Nebula1400 | July 19, 07:39 CET
zeitgeist | July 19, 07:40 CET
Nebula1400 | July 19, 07:42 CET
How about sing-along style captions during the songs pretty please? =)
I seriously can't wait for the dvd...
SenseiJJ | July 19, 07:43 CET
zeitgeist | July 19, 07:44 CET
Nebula1400 | July 19, 07:46 CET
zeitgeist | July 19, 07:47 CET
Oooooh, with a bouncy ball! Just like the "Pack up your troubles in your old kit bag" cartoon! :D (Yes, I'm old and senile and can't remember the name of it. :P )
cabri | July 19, 07:47 CET
okelay | July 19, 07:48 CET
The One True b!X | July 19, 07:48 CET
Simon | July 19, 07:49 CET
Crypto | July 19, 07:50 CET
But I loved it, wow, and Nathan Fillion singing was freaking awesome. He's sooo good, I finally heard him, I couldn't hear him in the first two... But in this one wow, he rocks..
But the Whedon Brothers should work more together, because that was sooo awesome.
Allen Doyle | July 19, 07:53 CET
And don't forget Maurissa. Even though everyone always does, suddenly.
The One True b!X | July 19, 07:54 CET
madmolly | July 19, 07:54 CET
And now the worms that serve as my brain are all squirmy and whispering and telling me stories of a many-episode arc involving Dr. Horrible trying to keep himself empty inside whilst finding his new notoriety and fan following is initially intoxicating, but the process of coming to realize he is becoming too much like one of the corporate tools he hated involves his alienating faithful Moist and going along with all of Bad Horse and the ELoE's plans with less and less enthusiasm. He comes to see that what he wanted wasn't what he needed and certainly nothing like what he got, and begins working on a Master Plan. We'll see him calculating, mixing, measuring, smiling while looking at flashy plasma thingies, and ultimately sneaking about with a shovel. Captain Hammer, meanwhile, having gone through enough therapy to find out he really is cheesy all the way through decides, in a mirroring of Dr. H's journey, that he can get his heroic manhood back by killing Dr. H. But he'll burst in on Dr. H. as he's throwing the final switch to restore and revive Penny. Sadly, or perhaps stupidly, CH will upset the delicate process and instead of bringing back the sweet, unassuming, helpful foil for their rivalry, the two enemies will instead see the birth of Bad Penny. She'll be a naughty thing, and cruel, and she'll berate and defeat both of them before taking off with Bad Horse. The two enemies will have a spectacular musical row, ending in their both realizing that Bad Penny must be stopped, at very least because she's a villain and Dr. H. can't stand to see her that way (especially when she's flirting with the Thoroughbred of Sin and is better at being Evil than he is). So in an unlikely team-up, they make a plan to administer a dose of Resurrection Reverser to BP, even though Dr. H. will probably be throwing his Evil Career away. Once again in his lab whites, Dr. H. musically makes up with Moist and he is brought in on the plan (being as he can cause an opportune slip-up during a BH/BP heist), and with Bad Penny in Captain Hammer's unbreakable grasp, Dr. Horrible administers the injection. Bad Penny collapses to the floor. Captain Hammer actually discovers tears running down his cheeks and is shocked that he is genuinely sad. Dr. Horrible starts to laugh. CH wants to punch him to Afghanistan until Penny stirs and is her old self again (as shown by the return of her theme). Dr. H. takes off his goggles and Billy tries to confess his feelings for Penny but CH steps on his lines and sings of his own heroic rescuing of Penny, but Penny has seen enough, and knows what's what, finally. She sings back that she knows true love when she sees it and that she sees it in Billy's eyes. Billy/Dr. H. and Penny start their Love Aria when CH interrupts that he's going to have to kick Dr. H's ass now, and so with the showing of newspapers and newsreaders declaring Captain Hammer was back and more heroic than ever with the defeat of Dr. Horrible, we see Penny and Billy sharing a song with lots of goo-goo eyes, then as they lean in for a kiss we see that there's a pane of glass between them, because Dr. H. is in prison and they're in a visiting room, and just about then the buzzer rings and Dr. H. is taken, smiling, away to wait until the next week when Penny will visit him again. ...And bring him yet another piece of the Tunnel Ray that he will use to escape.
...Um. Sorry. Yeah, that kind of got away from me.
[ edited by Grotesk on 2008-07-19 07:58 ]
Grotesk | July 19, 07:55 CET
Vespa | July 19, 07:55 CET
Totally agree. He got what he wanted, not what he needed. And he wanted to overhaul the system, put the power into different hands. Well, now they're in Dr. H's hands and nothing has changed. The sheep are still followers, crime may have gone up, but no one is standing up to it (like Penny did).
Dr. H is his own worst villian. And Capt H isn't such a jerk as I thought he was.
This was very good, Team Horrible! And success! Not only does Billy feel nothing, but I feel horrible. I can't wait for Comic-con to discuss things with you there!
:)
korkster | July 19, 07:55 CET
"God DAMNIT, Whedon!!"
I meant it as a compliment. Really.
Still applies.
Awesome. DVD ASAP. AOK.
oconnellmd | July 19, 07:58 CET
Simon | July 19, 07:58 CET
Outlaw Star? Doctor Steel?
The One True b!X | July 19, 07:59 CET
I love that Doug Petrie and Drew Goddard both were in the ELE - and that Jonathan Reilly got a role - well played sir!
SoddingNancyTribe | July 19, 05:46 CET
You know, they totally didn't have to do that. That's a level of classy above and beyond. I don't even know quite what to say.
Jonathan Reilly | July 19, 07:59 CET
zeitgeist | July 19, 07:59 CET
LOL
jcs | July 19, 08:01 CET
Allen Doyle | July 19, 08:01 CET
No it was a British show or film I think. Everything goes dark for the anti hero and it ends with him closing a door (or something very similar like that). It's completely downbear and depressing. It's bothering me that I can't remember what exactly is is.
Simon | July 19, 08:02 CET
How about, "Purple Pimp away!" (or whatever your catch-phrase is . . .)
SoddingNancyTribe | July 19, 08:03 CET
Witticisms | July 19, 08:07 CET
zeitgeist
Thanks for making me laugh, z!
korkster | July 19, 08:09 CET
The One True b!X | July 19, 08:10 CET
LiLi | July 19, 08:10 CET
Thanks to everyone involved in the making of Dr Horrible, I hope you're feeling proud, it is wonderful.
silvius | July 19, 08:11 CET
I do not cosplay anything, sir!
zeitgeist | July 19, 08:13 CET
Charmuse | July 19, 08:13 CET
I don't know if I want to be a sheep, or a tool, or a logo.
Question: Am I the only one who thinks that Captain Hammer "grew" a little? I mean, not much, but for his own capacity, I thought he seemed to reach a new level... keeping Penny as an official girlfriend, enjoying the work he's doing for the homeless, understanding that everyone has their villians to face and that everyone is a hero.
If that's true, then I feel bad because while CH grew and learned, Dr. H did not. He let grudges and vengenance blind him into his own downfall.
korkster | July 19, 08:14 CET
PuppetDoug | July 19, 08:14 CET
One of the most brilliant things Joss ever said was that he doesn't give people what they want, he gives them what they need. That's what real story does, and it ain't always pretty. The goofy setup is what gave us all hope that it could end happily, but what we got here is a truly satisfying ending, even if it is heartwrenching. Pitch perfect. Although I kinda wish I hadn't let my two little girls watch Act I and Act II constantly for the last few days. Idiot. Mama's gonna have some 'splainin to do when Princess Penny gets whacked in the third act...
Lani | July 19, 08:15 CET
But *you* like comic books. ;-)
But obviously we can disagree about that.
Absolutely
The point I was really trying to make is that there are many comic books that do have the kind of ending I think you're talking about. "Sandman" is one. "Watchmen" another. "Preacher" a third.
Watchman and Sandman were recommended to me, and I have wanted to read them. However, the local library doesn't seem to have them and I have no desire to buy...well, anything at the moment. The way I am feeling right now I think it would be best for me to read them a little later anyway. ;-)
Not all comic books are "damn comic books," IMHO. :-)
SoddingNancyTribe | July 19, 07:27 CET
But you *like* comic books. ...Wait I said that. ;-)
Seriously though. I'm sure not all comic books are damn comic books, but so far that is all I feel like we have been getting from Joss. It is great for people who like them, and lord knows I've tried, but here we finally have live action and it is another damn comic book with another ending that feels like it is just a set up to sell another damn comic book and I feel ripped off because I was looking forward to buying the DVD of this and now I don't want to unless there is another 40 minutes or so...and/or an ending. (breath)
Disappointment is a terrible thing. I just have to go to that not caring place, but that is not where I want to go after experiencing art, and I've been having to go there a lot lately. I'll stop now and let everybody bask.
newcj | July 19, 08:15 CET
zeitgeist | July 19, 08:16 CET
[ edit ] korkster | July 19, 00:12 CET
You know, sometimes I hate myself for asking those questions. It's like a sixth sense... sometimes I just get these feelings that not all is well, and I'm usually right. And I just hate it.
korkster | July 19, 08:16 CET
Simon | July 19, 08:18 CET
zeitgeist | July 19, 08:18 CET
That, or it's laundry day.
:)
AlanD | July 19, 08:19 CET
OK, that's a second strike (do y'all not read every single one of our posts here?).
Next one to question JW's parentage gets chopped.
SoddingNancyTribe | July 19, 08:19 CET
So sad! And yet... wonderful. Brilliant lyrics and catchy music! The ending stung a bit, though. It seems to me that the explosion forced Dr. Horrible's hand. He hesitated at pulling the trigger on Captain Hammer, but after Penny was gone, there was nothing left for him to cling to but his old evil aspirations. I also feel sorry for Captain Hammer who lost his innocence, and his self confidence along with the girl.
LiSu | July 19, 08:20 CET
I think Horrible did grow, but into a grown-up villain as opposed to being stuck between the two worlds. Just because we don't like what a person turns into doesn't negate that they changed and grew as characters. Sometimes we plant a seed and it grows into a pretty flower, and sometimes it becomes a thorny weed. Both grew.
PuppetDoug | July 19, 08:21 CET
redders | July 19, 08:22 CET
Please, join me now in a (virtual) standing ovation.
*applause applause applause*
Thank you Whedons, Etc...
And as fast as you may, bring on the sequel!!!
Love's Bitch | July 19, 08:22 CET
Ooh.
The One True b!X | July 19, 08:22 CET
Overall though, I loved it. And I will now be a card carrying member of the Neil Patrick Harris fan-club, really just brilliant. And Captain, oh my Captain.
onthedrift | July 19, 08:22 CET
I like that puppetdoug...kind of puts a new perspective on Penny's song in act II
[ edited by Vespa on 2008-07-19 08:27 ]
Vespa | July 19, 08:23 CET
Simon | July 19, 08:27 CET
zeitgeist | July 19, 08:27 CET
Still not doing so here.
The One True b!X | July 19, 08:33 CET
witch_kat | July 19, 08:36 CET
And of course I post this here... and the email notify comes and the download kicks in.
[ edited by theonetruebix on 2008-07-19 08:37 ]
The One True b!X | July 19, 08:36 CET
"With my freeze ray I will stop the world" indeed.
Lady Brick | July 19, 08:38 CET
korkster | July 19, 08:38 CET
Now I'm home to enjoy it in full musical brilliance and I am, ironically, speechless.
Eleventy gazillion thanks to all involved and also to everyone who saw a preview copy and managed not to ruin the ending for us.
It just all reminds me why I lurve the Whedons and their verses so very, very much.
missb | July 19, 08:39 CET
broodyangelcakes | July 19, 08:42 CET
Right now I'm watching EW's Firefly Fridays. Dr. Horrible, Firefly -- This is the Best. Work Shift. Ever! =)
cabri | July 19, 08:43 CET
Giles_314 | July 19, 08:44 CET
zeitgeist | July 19, 08:18 CET
Really z? What's the other 4?
Wow, Lady Brick, I love how you read my mind and put into words something that would come out jumbled for me.
Lady Brick | July 19, 08:38 CET
Not only did he stop Penny & CH's world, but his own too, in a way. While the disease rages on...
korkster | July 19, 08:44 CET
Valerie | July 19, 08:45 CET
I'm kinda gutted right now, but I thought this was brill - words and music and acting and production all.
F**k me, but I didn't think this was coming. Fool me once... yeah, you know the rest.
Yet each man kills the thing he loves,
By each let this be heard,
Some do it with a bitter look,
Some with a flattering word,
The coward does it with a kiss,
The brave man with a sword!
Some kill their love when they are young,
And some when they are old;
Some strangle with the hands of Lust,
Some with the hands of Gold:
The kindest use a knife, because
The dead so soon grow cold.
Some love too little, some too long,
Some sell, and others buy;
Some do the deed with many tears,
And some without a sigh:
For each man kills the thing he loves,
Yet each man does not die.
from Oscar Wilde's "The Ballad of Reading Gaol"
QuoterGal | July 19, 08:45 CET
Hostile 17 | July 19, 08:46 CET
DR. HORRIBLE IS MY FAVORITE SHOW
Some may disagree, but this hit home with me in every way his other 'verses did, but with so much more.
korkster | July 19, 08:46 CET
korkster | July 19, 08:49 CET
One thing that I consistently seem to wonder about is how Dr. Horrible seems to escape incarceration after each and every crime. I just assumed in Act II that the freeze ray finally *did* warm up, and and allowed him to escape. Then I envisioned some twist with Captain Hammer... that Cappy actually WANTED him to escape so that he could battle him again and again.
I agree with an earlier poster: I've pimped the Hell out of this thing to everyone I could convert... and now they've all been staked with a telephone pole. I'm not eagerly awaiting all those "what was that?" comments on Monday.
Saw a thank you shout-out to Ben Edlund in the credits- would love to know what he did for the production.
P.S.- just how DOES a full-sized thoroughbred of evil write a letter and affix his seal?(Loved the song-turned-into dance party music, B.T.W.)
E.T.A. WOW- that was a completely different experience on my second viewing. Probably should have watched twice before posting.
Two more interesting bits from the credits- I've seen grips and electricians, but never a "griptrician". Can't say I've ever seen "honey wagon driver" credited either!
[ edited by MikeTMC on 2008-07-19 09:15 ]
MikeTMC | July 19, 08:50 CET
He was an impressively glowering horse, though.
The tragic turn. for my money. occurred in the second act when he turned murderous. We can all do that and a lot of us do.
ETA: But we shouldn't.
[ edited by dreamlogic on 2008-07-19 10:21 ]
dreamlogic | July 19, 08:52 CET
I just want to say Thank you.
Thank you for every time you've surprised me. Thank you for every time you've ripped out my heart, stomped on it and handed it back to me. Thank you for every time you've given me a real ending or a dark ending, or a different ending instead of a happy one. Thank you for "The Body." Thank you for "Hush." Thank you for OMWF. Thank you for "Smashed" and "Wrecked" and "A Hole in the World" and "Shells" and all of Firefly and everything else. And now, thank you for "Doctor Horrible's Sing-Along Blog."
Wow.
Just. Wow.
Thank you.
joni | July 19, 08:53 CET
Now, lets say it. Encore!!
Madhatter | July 19, 08:54 CET
[ edited by Effulgent on 2008-07-19 09:02 ]
Effulgent | July 19, 09:01 CET
Oh, I've transcribed the lyrics. E-mail me!
UnpluggedCrazy | July 19, 09:16 CET
jesster | July 19, 09:17 CET
sock monkey | July 19, 09:17 CET
not Penny
...
Bloody hell... This reminds me of what happened to Loo in Fray.
...
Love it... but so torn up!
Mort | July 19, 09:19 CET
Coming to the conclusion that i'm kinda dumb because, let's be honest, tragic death and Joss are not exactly complete strangers and yet I didn't see it coming. Again. I really thought Horrible would turn his life around, that seeing the disapproval in Penny's eyes would be enough but no. Evil is as evil does and the disapproval was in her heart (all too literally). Turn your back on love and look where it gets you - membership in a sort of "Circle of the Black Beauty".
Brilliant. Since the comparison's come up before, I do prefer the Empire Strikes Back-ian Act II but all three were great. Can't wait for the follow-on prequel where Joss totally loses it and has a CGI black and white minstrel as a major character (as if ;).
Saje | July 19, 09:20 CET
Thank you Joss...when will we be getting another?
Godspeed, Penny.
impalergeneral | July 19, 09:20 CET
Mort | July 19, 09:21 CET
Actually, a lot of Act I & II is pretty tragic after seeing Act III. But I do like that the subversion of the hero/villain roles went far beyond the initial comedy. In the end, the hero kills the girl and the villain has to put the loss aside and soldier on behind the mask of his public persona.
Lady Brick | July 19, 09:22 CET
Charmuse | July 19, 09:24 CET
Saje | July 19, 09:28 CET
On a totally diffent note- I keep thinking about The Thoroughbred of Sin: In the pantheon of talking equines there is Mr. Ed, Francis the Talking Mule.... and now Bad Horse? (grin)
MikeTMC | July 19, 09:31 CET
I love the whole thing. Bleak? Yes. But can you really be a Josscoat without being a complete masochist at the same time? It probably helps that I thoroughly anticipate a sequel that builds upon this.
Highlights:
-The demented fangirls. "We do the weird stuff."
-David and Marti. Hilarious parody of (I'm guessing) Fox News.
-Hammer's big song. You almost grow to like him, then he pulls you back in line by saying something douchebaggy again.
-Bad Horse was surprisingly indimidating. Here's hoping the ELoE have expanded roles in future Dr. Horrible productions.
Break_Atmo | July 19, 09:32 CET
DreamDancer | July 19, 09:34 CET
Wow. that was amazing.
soooo... when is the soundtrack coming out?
VigilanteSidekick | July 19, 09:41 CET
I'll bring a box of tissues to my 'Cabin in the Woods' viewing.
Effulgent | July 19, 09:46 CET
korkster | July 19, 09:49 CET
good for him!
Litwal | July 19, 09:50 CET
It's a trio!
[ edited by Miisanthrope on 2008-07-19 09:51 ]
Miisanthrope | July 19, 09:51 CET
QuoterGal | July 19, 09:56 CET
Ildeth | July 19, 09:58 CET
korkster | July 19, 10:03 CET
Craig Oxbrow | July 19, 10:09 CET
Notice how he doesn't show his head ? Criminal savvy that is. You can't teach that, it's a matter of breeding.
Saje | July 19, 10:15 CET
Has anyone watched all 3 sequentially yet? I'm going to to see how it resonates now.
korkster | July 19, 10:17 CET
Thinking about it however it is the only way that it could have ended that I feel wouldn't have been a cop out. Also it's not like we weren't warned that there would be a killing in the previous two acts.
The really sad thing is that you feel had Billy not missed going to the laundry things might have gone very differently. Penny seemed to be disillusioned with CH and that moral victory for Billy might have been enough to turn him from his super-villan path.
mgmn | July 19, 10:24 CET
Just after Penny dies, the female chorus on Dr Horrible's song sings the lyrics "everything you've ever..." (the "wanted" is, presumably, understood).
I don't have a problem with the concept, and I like the way that everything in Dr Horrible leads up to what now seems like an inevitable conclusion. It's just that I don't know how I feel about it.
Ildeth | July 19, 10:24 CET
Saje | July 19, 10:28 CET
Ildeth | July 19, 10:30 CET
Simplier stated (oh, I invented a word!), we want more story.
Madhatter | July 19, 10:31 CET
rua1412 | July 19, 10:34 CET
I feel sad and happy.
worldwithoutshrimp | July 19, 10:38 CET
Madhatter | July 19, 10:56 CET
...though I've been thinking about the pleasure derived from tragedy, and that odd human "tragic joy" - trying to understand why we "enjoy" tragic creations when we have so much real life tragedy in and around us... but I think that's part of the "why."
Well, it's quite a topic, and I'm not saying I've come to any conclusions - but the writers (and others involved) who can do this as effectively as the Doc Horrible creators are quite the alchemists, transmuting the raw stuff of pain into a finer metal...
It's quite an awesome power, really - I don't mean to over-dramatize it, but it's really something to cause this pain - among other emotions, and however fleeting - in people who embrace it and applaud the creators.
Well, hate to muse and run, but being such a comedy gal, I haven't spent that much time thinking about why the creation of pain and tragedy is so embraced by folks that stand to inevitably experience their own fair share of it... more on this when my brain is actually working...
QuoterGal | July 19, 11:01 CET
I decided to watch it from the beginning. When I got to the end of Act III, I felt very much like I did the first time I saw Serenity in the preview screening - and for many times after that, for that matter. I was stunned and shocked and couldn't talk about it for several hours afterwards. As with Wash's death, it wasn't what I wanted - I admit to liking happy endings, incurable romantic that I am - and yet I immediately recognise how necessary those deaths are to take the drama to a level that the 'safe' ending wouldn't have.
In Serenity, Wash's death leads us to think that no member of the crew is safe from death in the final battle (no matter what Jayne thinks!). Penny's death was necessary to make a point. It's not that Joss is 'always' killing off his characters, it's that most writers take the 'safe' or 'easy' way. Joss definitely does give us what we need - even if it means ripping our hearts out to do it. I, for one, have to thank Joss for teaching me to feel again, which means I have to take the good and the bad.
So thank you to Joss, Jed, Maurissa and Zack - I look forward to more collaborations from all of you in the future (plus Dollhouse and Fringe, of course)
ETA What QuoterGal said while I was falling asleep writing my post!
[ edited by samatwitch on 2008-07-19 11:05 ]
samatwitch | July 19, 11:03 CET
Yeah, a little bad. Okay, a lot bad. There may have been tears.
and ...
I was quietly sobbing through the credits when Mutant Enemy appeared on the screen causing me to leap off my chair with glee and simultaneously yank the headphones out of the jack.
I was actually looking at the run counter thinking "How the hell are they gonna turn this around in 2 minutes ?" and then "... a thing" and black. Actually said "Oh no fucking way !" out loud. Yep, i'd totally forgotten about the credits which very nicely filled the two minutes in which I was imagining some mad science to re-animate Penny, Captain Hammer exposed as the moral coward we all know him to be but still defeated by Horrible so his super-villain currency goes up etc. etc. Dr H tells us himself though "There's no happy ending ... not for me anyway ...".
The "Grrr Aaargh" was some consolation, not enough but some.
Saje | July 19, 11:08 CET
Still think Penny is the actual hero of the piece.
QG, I hated this at first, from my own fair share of pain and tragedy delivered in such a way I've discussed before. However, I'm able to go back and understand more with Dr. H, where I don't have that luxury in life.
The blow isn't softened, but I understand more, so, in a way, that makes it better?
korkster | July 19, 11:08 CET
Then, worse timing of all, my mom calls and asks me to pick her up. Can you imagine driving at a state of emotional distress like this one? Then the badgering of "what's wrong" and all of that. When she saw Act 3, she shut up.
The "Grrr Aaargh" was no consolation, because I knew it was truly over.
korkster | July 19, 11:13 CET
NPH just looked so desolate in that last shot, really a brilliant bit of work from him.
(actually, thinking about it, you could maybe make a case that Dr H is Anakin Skywalker in the Star Wars prequels. Maybe)
ETA: And watching it again, one of the worst parts for me is that Penny dies with a lie on her lips. He's not going to save them, he's a selfish, slimy imbecile.
[ edited by Saje on 2008-07-19 11:25 ]
Saje | July 19, 11:23 CET
Simon | July 19, 11:37 CET
redders | July 19, 11:45 CET
debw | July 19, 11:48 CET
manwithpez | July 19, 11:55 CET
manwithpez | July 19, 11:57 CET
I didn't like act 1, liked act 2 a lot and LOVED act 3.
Each man kills the thing he loves.
ETA: I did not see QuoterGal's post when I wrote that. Great-ish minds, etc.
Caroline | July 19, 12:04 CET
Perseo | July 19, 12:15 CET
Obviously we are talking allowing for the actors in question to be available, particuarly as the two (surviving) leads are currently working on other series (never before have I sort of wished that HIMYM hadn't been given a new season...), not to mention Joss being busy with Dollhouse but seriously, Horrible and Hammer are far too excellent characters to just let that be that.
I know that I'd be there for a weekly dose of Dr. Horrible but being more realistic I'd at least like to think that one of these webisodes could happen on a semi-regular basis.
And not having Alyson Hannigan be Bad Horse? Missed opportunity, Joss. Missed opportunity! ;)
The Highlander | July 19, 12:24 CET
kishi | July 19, 12:27 CET
Honestly, it was bad enough only getting half a season of Felicia as Vi and then having to let her go. One episode of her as Penny is just criminal.
The Highlander | July 19, 12:31 CET
Still, the 'Grr, Arrgh' at the end soothed the sting a bit :)
Ailoura | July 19, 12:34 CET
rua1412 | July 19, 12:40 CET
Not just super-strong, nigh invulnerable too ! ;)
Or at the very least a regular series of webisodes? Say a 45 minute ep like this one, maybe 4 times a year?
Well that presumably depends on the money among other things (let we unAmericans pay you too ! Please ! ;) but Joss has said that they asked a lot of favours to do this and that if they hadn't relied on the kindness of non-strangers, it would've cost more. I don't see a TV show and to be honest I also don't see Dr Horrible becoming a regular thing. I do see more Dr H in live action at some point (and certainly more comics etc.) and maybe more of the same sort of indie thing from the Joss posse (the Josse ? ;). Personally i'd love that even more I think, a sort of annual dose of totally fresh stories and characters over and above his ongoing stuff. Like a sort of Whedon Holiday Special every year ;).
Saje | July 19, 12:41 CET
I know, isn't it great!
Madhatter | July 19, 12:42 CET
Didn't occur to me at the time. But, ironically, Caligula's horse's mate's name was Penelope.
palehorse | July 19, 12:47 CET
dreeze | July 19, 12:48 CET
Yeah, I hear that had a lot to do with the ending of Angel and Firefly too. I'm starting to think that this "money" thing has some kind of grudge against well written entertainment. ;)
But that was pretty much what I was thinking, Saje. Based strictly on the way that this first webisode happened I really wouldn't expect it to be able to become a regular thing. There are only so many favours even Joss is owed, I'd imagine. What I was hoping was that the success of this might lead to someone with some of that money stuff actually throwing some in Joss' direction for future webisodes so that those involved might actually get, y'know, paid. Then maybe this could be done on some sort of regular basis. As you say though, it will all come down to how profitable this first attempt turns out to be.
The Highlander | July 19, 13:04 CET
Madhatter | July 19, 13:04 CET
Vinity | July 19, 13:06 CET
Great, great show, please let there be more!
Krusher | July 19, 13:08 CET
Awesomeness made of awesome with awesome on the side.
Dear Joss, please return my heart when you're done tearing it apart. Don't worry, I'll get it back in shape in time for Dollhouse, so you can kill me over and over again. I love when you do that. :)
On a lighter note, did I dream it or when Hammer is standing over Dr. Horrible with the Death Ray Gun he also gives him the finger?
Elena | July 19, 13:15 CET
I think I know why some people (myself included) are having problems with the last act - I think the whole think has a little problem with the tone-changing. Tone and genre are a contract between the creators and the audience. Now, you can subvert and even break the contract (as Joss often does) but you *have* to, as a creator, somehow alert the audience to this. Now, Dr. Horrible did hint heavily at dark things, but it was still a little confused with a lot of silliness and humor and lightheartedness, and I think in way it wasn't balanced well enough.
Plus, the Doctor's not *really* bad, he does some bad things but he really is a good guy, and I got the sense he wanted to change the world for the best. And I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have shot Captain Hammer. His real crime was that he wanted power to gain respect he felt he didn't have, not really to use it for good.
BTW, the Doc's song was a little too Sweeney-Toddish for my taste, but it's still a good song.
That said, I thought the whole thing was great.
[ edited by lordsketch on 2008-07-19 13:23 ]
lordsketch | July 19, 13:23 CET
Madhatter | July 19, 13:27 CET
With three fictional characters (yes, they are only fictional), Joss has within less than an hour, made me love them so profoudly that their fictonal death has made me weep and mourn their passing. And oh, did I mention that they are ficitonal. What a storyteller to be able to provoke real true emotions about characters I've only known literally 45 minutes, just shows how amazing Joss really is. I've been watching telelvision for years and years now, and things get repetitive, and when something comes along that surprises me (even after I shouldn't have been surprised) and makes me say wow, I cherish.
Thank you, Whedon folk for this wonderfully emotionally moving bit of art. Which, it really is, after all. I watch to be entertained and to be told a story and entertained I was. There are no black and whites just grays, no good versus evil, no good people live happily ever after and bad go to bad people's jail. Just as in real life. Once again, thank for giving me the gift of laughter and song and for making me weep and empty my tissue box and for everything in between. Encore, encore!
RollingInKittens | July 19, 13:28 CET
Moist: "Yeah . . ."
Dr. Horrible: "Yeah?"
Moist: "It was all right. I thought I was supposed to end up with Bait but . . ."
Dr. Horrible: "I hear ya."
. . . I see what you did there.
You know, I want to love it unconditionally but frankly, I think I need to watch again and let it all soak in for a while. I mean, I knew this wasn't "Dr. FluffyKitten's Sing-A-Long Blog" going in but Jesus, Whedons (plural) - that was rough. This was like suddenly finding a serrated switchblade at the center of the most delicious ball of cotton candy I have ever tasted. With my tongue.
A++ songs, acting/singing, comedy and visuals but freakin' OW at that ending.
BloodyAwfulPoet | July 19, 13:30 CET
" Everything Happens" ....so true
Joss & Co thank you so much for making this!!!
It's funny, beautiful and sad at the same time.
I can't wait for the DVD and soundtrack.
Fransisca | July 19, 13:35 CET
LaneMeyer | July 19, 13:39 CET
Dr. Horrible: "You idiot! You almost killed her!"
Captain Hammer: "I remember it differently."
Well, in Act III- he finally *did* kill her... and now it's the world that 'remembers it differently.'
MikeTMC | July 19, 14:01 CET
deepgirl187 | July 19, 14:12 CET
As soon as I noticed this was being billed as three acts, rather than parts, or episodes or webisodes, I assumed that this had been put together as a modern version of the traditional three act play, and it would appear that this is correct, even down to the denouement at the end.
As such it didn't surprise me at all in the change of tone between all three acts, I honestly thought this was perfectly constructed and flows very well from one act to the next even with the change in tone, and Miss Tancharoen and the Brothers Whedon should be congratulated on the application and use of this structure if nothing else.
What did surprise me, and many others was what should have been obvious given that Joss was involved. I just vaguely hoped that as it had been his most comedic production so far that it might mean we could be saved the pain this time, thus leading to me actually being surprised. The man just can't leave us with a happy ending can he? But then again, any kind of happy ending wouldn't have been anywhere near as good, or interesting, or true.
The only thing it really leaves us with is the hope that one day Billy can find redemption, and if it follows any kind of comic book sensibilities, as it has (roughly) so far, would be for Dr Horrible to end any sequel sacrificing himself for the greater good.
Sadly though I don't think we'll ever get a sequel, Joss always leaves us wanting more.
dev | July 19, 14:19 CET
Simon | July 19, 14:22 CET
Lioness | July 19, 14:26 CET
I can't believe it. I've been crying non stop since me and my mam have watched it. :(
Joss is fantastic. Everyone on Dr Horrible's Sing Along Blog was fantastic. I'm hoping beond hope that their going to make more.....Please Joss. I'm begging. :)
spike_lover | July 19, 14:29 CET
Was that a delibrate nod to Billy Budd? The book, film and Morrissey song. It did cross my mind when I heard the name.
Simon | July 19, 14:31 CET
It was wonderful and tragic. Thank you.
Scaniano | July 19, 14:32 CET
What crossed mine was alliteration, which is a staple of super-hero/villain characters both but probably more heroes (Clark Kent, Peter Parker, Bruce Banner, Matt Murdock etc.) - thought it might be a hint that we'd see Billy turn his life around but I guess he had too much Lex Luthor in him after all.
Saje | July 19, 14:40 CET
I didn't see this coming, but in retrospect, it's how it had to end. How it needed to end. There's no other way it could have ended. That's what I love about Joss. He doesn't give you what you want or expect. He gives you what you don't know you need. And I, for one, am thankful. I really needed this. And I need more.
Awesome job, everyone involved.
GreatMuppetyOdin | July 19, 14:42 CET
shicks | July 19, 14:45 CET
Poor Dr Horrible! How did I not expect Dr Horrible and Penny to get Jossed? He does it every time, and every time I am shocked! I'm sure when we all wise up and start expecting that to happen, Joss will give us a happy ending, just to screw with our minds =P
I was surprised to see Bad Horse was, in fact, a horse. So much for all our theories, lol. I am still curious though, how did Penny know who Bad Horse was?
phlebotenum | July 19, 14:52 CET
"I bring you pain, the kind you can't suffer quietly" - no truer words...
lordsketch | July 19, 14:53 CET
It's the best possible outcome to warrant a sequel. If he got the girl, what would the sequel be? A cozy domestic scene? Now Dr. Horrible is full of pain but he's got what he's supposedly wanted and is part of an evil organization. There's tons of narrative potential there.
swanjun | July 19, 14:54 CET
Two things to Simon... Re: the ending, along with The Godfather, I was feeling a little Dangerous Liasons here. Remember Glenn Close in the mirror, wiping off her makeup with that devastating expressionlessness? /shudder. The fruits of your scheming will come to roost (wha...huh?!?) and you're left with no one to blame but yourself, and very little in you left to care. Gorgeous.
Also...
Wasn't that just the (fun, tragic, for-those-looking-carefully-like-you) twist? That she was the girl of both heroes/villains...
[ edited by barest_smidgen on 2008-07-19 14:58 ]
barest_smidgen | July 19, 14:56 CET
Love Joss, love parts I & II, hate the ending of Part III.
TawnyJayne | July 19, 14:56 CET
swanjun | July 19, 15:00 CET
I am still curious though, how did Penny know who Bad Horse was?
I never have understood why this is a big deal. In their world, super-heroes are in the newspapers and on TV and the deputy mayor writes letters of condemnation of even minor super-villains - why wouldn't she recognise the name ?
(just as in Batman's world people know about The Joker or in Spider-man's world people know about the Green Goblin)
Saje | July 19, 15:03 CET
It couldn't have been better. :)
[ edited by TheGamut on 2008-07-19 15:08 ]
TheGamut | July 19, 15:08 CET
redders | July 19, 15:10 CET
Madhatter | July 19, 15:12 CET
For me at least, it was more that Acts I and II had that 'happy musical' feel to them whereas Act III didn't. So as a standalone act, it just didn't seem right when compared to the other 2. But then when you watch them all one after the other, it works wonderfully.
I never have understood why this is a big deal. In their world, super-heroes are in the newspapers and on TV and the deputy mayor writes letters of condemnation of even minor super-villains - why wouldn't she recognise the name ?
Ah yes, very good point. I didn't even think of that. Now it makes perfect sense why she knows who Bad Horse is.
[ edited by phlebotenum on 2008-07-19 15:16 ]
phlebotenum | July 19, 15:12 CET
It's true that this is a great entertaining layered artefact from the writers' strike for the future. How often does the underdog side get to write the testament?
I want to say a big well done and heartfelt applause to all of the cast and crew involved with this.
fangless | July 19, 15:19 CET
montresor | July 19, 15:20 CET
Just chiming in with my congratulations on a job awesomely well-done. I ~love~ that Penny's 'demise' drives the story hard and fast towards a precipice - it surely signals that there is much, much more to come. Can't wait. And I suspect that we haven't seen the last of Felicia in this tale ~just~ yet. :-)
May I add that 'Slipping' was a stand-out song. Truly it would not be out of place in a Sondheim musical - which is about the highest praise I can bestow on any work of theatrical art, and you being a fellow Sondheim
obsessivefan, I suspect you know where I'm coming from when I say that.Lovely, lovely work. Just lovely.
Thank you.
crystalsinger | July 19, 15:32 CET
JustNick | July 19, 15:33 CET
Because Billy was Penny's laundry buddy and it woudl be strange and stilted for her to be referring to him by his whole name rather than the assumed "Billy, (my) buddy" in the song.
I assume from reading papers and watching tv as hero/villian coverage seems to be a big thing. ETA - er, what Saje said! ;) And, as expected, love it to bits in the light of day. Incredible what such skilled writing can do to you in such a short time.
zeitgeist | July 19, 15:34 CET
I will need to watch Part III a couple more times, but I have to say that I found it a perfect ending. Cannot wait for the DVD, and how totally lovely to see old friends looking so good (even in costume).
Joss, you bast...ion of talent! *giggle* (couldn't help myself, SoddingNancyTribe. But I do think it's notable that the "you bastard" thing is from "South Park," as in "Oh my G'd! They killed Kenny!" "You bastards!" Considering the character's name is Penny, it's actually kind of clever... :-)
OzLady | July 19, 15:34 CET
Man I wish we were going to Comic Con this year! Y'all got to keep me in the loop. Promise? ;-)
And a big shout out to anyone else going to Austin TX for the Browncoat Ball: There WILL be sing-a-longs.
firefloozysuzie | July 19, 15:40 CET
embers | July 19, 15:43 CET
(loved it!)
zillah | July 19, 15:43 CET
zeitgeist | July 19, 15:47 CET
EditorAl | July 19, 15:52 CET
karosurly | July 19, 15:53 CET
zeitgeist | July 19, 15:55 CET
The sad thing about Dr Horribe (among the many), is that Joss and company have created this incredible piece of art, yet it will never again resonate so strongly as it has for us. This has been an EVENT which will not and cannot come again.
We say it was 45 minutes, and it truly will be for anyone who sees it now -- but for us it was so much more. It was watching and rewatching and waiting and rewatching, and obssessing and discussing and pimping and pouring over the interviews and reviews and everything.
Most of all, it was us totally crushing on Felicia Day, who for me started the month a relatively minor figure in the Whedon pantheon, yet now I wonder when are we getting her photo on this site's masthead? (if it's a question of space, I say we bump Xander). Felicia has been so fantastic and so sweet and open with all the interviews with fan sites, plus her own site, and twitter, and the photo shoot, The Guild, etc. Joss couldn't have picked a more perfect Penny to give us, and then to take away. Who was it that first said that Felicia sings like an angel? Sob.
Maybe I'm getting too cynical, but I wonder if in all this we weren't even being played a little by Joss (not that I'm complaining).
In years to come, new fans will see Dr Horrible, and they will love it, and they will remember it. But we were the ones who got to live it.
And that's what makes it (and us) special.
AlanD | July 19, 15:57 CET
Will I never learn? I hope not.
Thank you so much Joss & Co. Awesome right to the very last. I even recovered enough to cheer at 'Grr Argh.' Welcome back Joss Whedon - I've missed you.
The Do That Girl | July 19, 16:00 CET
Not horribly unexpected (I see dead people = I see Joss people),
but I still kept waiting,
and waiting,
and watching the credits roll (and going "Hey!" at various names)
and waiting for an extra little scene or somesuch that never came. (Grr. Argh.)
Then I went back and rewatched all the acts (and caught all the little things I missed) and enjoyed the musicy lyrics and buffness of NF and evildom of musicals and went off to tell people about DHSAB in my own heroic not-so-heroic way.
All in all, this project rocked. And a hearty yay to everyone who made it so wonderful. Hope it gets lots of continuing support.
Jav | July 19, 16:01 CET
beckyboo | July 19, 16:11 CET
Lucky I wasn't driving at the time ;).
I thought for Dr. Horrible, the story could have been redemption achieved for a change. I am not looking for a hollywood ending all the time, but joy and relief are cathartic as well.
I actually wonder if Joss is just trying to time it perfectly so that as soon as the majority actually are expecting the innocent to die every time, he subverts that by giving us the fairytale ending. Or maybe he's dead inside ;-).
(more seriously, I do sometimes wonder if he thinks there's no place for innocence in the adult world - it's often, maybe always, the people that least deserve to die that buy it in his stuff)
Saje | July 19, 16:15 CET
zeitgeist | July 19, 16:16 CET
WCityMike | July 19, 16:23 CET
WCityMike | July 19, 16:24 CET
It's a dark view of the world. Innocence is ultimately sacrificed, evil always stronger. In a way, it makes the hero more admirable, in that they keep up the fight regardless, only in Dr. Horrible, there was no real hero.
I must stop now! I have this fear that Joss will be reading comments and think "That EditorAl doesn't get my work, what a whiner and a jerk!" Not so Joss! I love everything you do. You entertain like no one in a generation or more and there is more depth in your work (intellectual, emotional, etc) than 99% of television and film.
EditorAl | July 19, 16:28 CET
First off, I'd like to echo Simon's You'd think I'd know better by now but I fall for it every time. And second, I'd like to add that I wasn't expecting to like this as much as I did-it kind of caught me off guard.
Act one was....interesting but I was sort of "what's the big deal?" It was like watching a comic book fan's fanasty come to life or something. I didn't get it, although I enjoyed the singing part. But mostly, I was...meh.
Act two was utterly brilliant, every single second of it. I was drawn into the story, was rooting for Dr. Horrible to win over Penny, thought Hammer (Captian Hammer? What was it?) was an ass. A hunky ass but an ass nonetheless.
Act three? Yeah, should've seen that coming, was shocked that I didn't, kind of wanted to hate Joss for killing another character yet again but found I was too impressed to.
Congratulations to everyone who was a part of making Dr. Horrible. The lyrics were great, the acting was superb (and so were the vocals) and I loved the way it was filmed and presented.
It was great seeing Fury and Noxon in that little skit and maybe the best part of it all was tearing up at seeing the "Grr! Arrg!" monster at the end.
Now of course....I have this quirky urge to go rewatch season 2 of Angel because viewing Dr. Horrible was sort of like watching a compressed version of the Angel/Darla/Lindsey arc from that season, up to and including the last line of act three. Wonder where I heard that before?
menomegirl | July 19, 16:29 CET
AICairhead | July 19, 16:30 CET
It's so mean. It's all because Dr. Horrible showed mercy! Is it my imagination, or did he hesitate for a moment before shooting Captain Hammer? If he hadn't have hesitated, Captain Hammer wouldn't have been unfroze, he wouldn't have punched him and damaged the gun, and all that wouldn't have happened..!
And secondly, why did they have to make it so funny? Bad Horse at the end, the Bad Horse spokespeople in the party, Captain Hammer on the psychiatrist's chair... all hilarious, in theory, but we can't laugh! You've killed us, and we can't laugh at these funny things. It's so tragic. And I love you all for it.
MattK | July 19, 16:34 CET
Listen, I do get the power of that technique. But the fact that he has now employed it in nearly every single creative project he's done is getting a little, well, repetitive.
I'm sure I need not read the list. But I tell you, part of why I am so angry is that I forgot this was JOSS FREAKING WHEDON we were talking about and OF COURSE this was going to involve Penny's death. And I got suckered right in to the story and into caring for them.
The death of a beloved character is a SHORTCUT. And the fact that he keeps employing it is now seeming to me to be REALLY LAZY.
Joss, I know you occasionally read these threads. Honest to God, man, we GET IT. We're now expecting that any creative project you work on, you're going to write a wonderful, beloved, sweet character that you'll make us love from the bottom of our hearts, and you'll then scoop out her soul and not even give her an afterlife, or you'll shove a piece of a death ray in her abdomen, or you'll shove a ten-foot diameter Reaver spike through his body, or ...
You're starting to get the allure of a horror movie, except that the characters are so dimensional that they're not the one-dimensional characters of horror, they're four-dimensional characters better than real life. But your stuff is getting the patina of a chop-shop movie: what beloved character is going to die next, and in what gruesome fashion are you going to off them?
WCityMike | July 19, 16:35 CET
I will watch over and over and love this story for always, but the experience will never quite be the same as right now.
Thank you, Joss, cast, crew, and everyone here (because you were/are all part of the event for me).
geekiskhan | July 19, 16:40 CET
I wonder if any of this was inspired by NPH in Assassins, since there's the same innocence, smallness and sadness then suddenly magnified by one frightening action...and damn, NPH is amazing.
The more I look at this the more depth it gets--much as they said in Buffy, it's about the power. Anyway, I am very impressed...I was hoping for happy, but I think this took it in further, stranger directions than I expected. I'm very impressed.
JessicaMelusine | July 19, 16:43 CET
Saje, stop stealing what I wanted to say. And also: are you me? ;)
I'm still surprised that Act III surprised me. Joss did the old 'bait and switch' (only - without the negative connotations that holds) very effectively, selling of Acts I and II as lighthearted musical comedy. Slowly getting darker, yes, but lighthearted all the same. And then, as it turns out, the tonal shift at the end of Act II gets expanded upon in Act III and we get the Jossian drama we all know and love.
As others have said, the ending is pitch-perfect. It makes one feel (kudos on getting us so invested in characters in 40 minutes), it works on many levels thematically and it makes for some truly, truly awesome acting on NPH's part. Surely that's what makes it painfull. Penny's death is only a short moment (although her undisturbed faith in Cpt. Hammer is gut-wrenching), but Dr. Horrible's reaction is what sells the pain.
So, all in all, an almost perfect piece of fiction. But, having said that, one does have to wonder: we joke about Whedon killing off characters, and Joss keeps doing just that. It's already becoming his trademark and for some - just taking a look at the reactions in this thread - we've already passed the point where it has become a form of self-parody. I, too, felt initially disappointed that Joss would pull the same trick again (and at the same time impressed that he would have us - not the least intelligent bunch on the net, I'd think - fall for it all over again as well).
Yes, Dr. Horrible would have been a lesser work of fiction - I feel - without the tragic ending (although I would have still loved it to bits, for the breezy piece of entertainment it could have been), but it is something to be considered. There's a risk of Joss becoming a one-trick pony (or horse ;)) in the minds of main-stream media if people start to notice the theme more outside of our fandom. Like Shyamalan soon became pigeonholed as the 'twist-guy'. And it would sell Joss short, because all these deaths make dramatical sense and help push the story forward or take it in an unexpected - but, in hindsight, unavoidable - direction. I guess it would be helpfull if 'Cabin in the Woods' did not use this particular story device as I think the chance for no major character deaths in Dollhouse is about equal to zero ;), although I'm now realising that the chance of that in a horror movie is probably also not too big.
ETA: yikes, this thread has grown while I was typing this. You guys are fast.
[ edited by GVH on 2008-07-19 16:47 ]
GVH | July 19, 16:46 CET
What just happened?
In brief: liked act one, loved act two, thought the first few songs in act three were underwhelming, and then Dr. Horrible came in and WHAT JUST HAPPENED? Can't...process....
WilliamTheB | July 19, 16:48 CET
WCityMike | July 19, 16:52 CET
That's what I thought at first, too. It's the only time he's at the webcam without his coat and goggles, and that whole montage leading up to it was very quick and disjointed like how someone would imagine things playing out for themselves. I thought maybe he had made up the entire story in his video blog, or at least all of the stuff after Penny's death.
Now I'm pretty sure it's just supposed to show something about his character, but I'm a bit confused about what it's supposed to show.
RaisedByMongrels | July 19, 16:55 CET
That's what soo many years of no Joss show does to rabid fans, there's finally something to talk about, and talking is what us fans do at great lenght :D
Still hasn't sunk in, but I'm going to watch the show in it's total later tonight. With a beer or two and a box of tissues.
Krusher | July 19, 16:57 CET
But here we don't get easy answers. My hat's off to Mutant Enemy.
It's such a replay of NFA in a way (Angel's finale), with Dr.Horrible entering the Circle of Black Thorn, to rule the world in a better way (in his opinion) after qualifying with a murder (he didn't do it but it still was his fault), and shutting the door behind him. Vow.
The price of violent social change is right here, as well as the lies and ruthlessness of the establisjment (Cpt.Hammer).
Cpt.Hammer didn't hesitate to fire the Death Ray, after all.
We know who the victim is but who's the villain here? Both Hammer and Horrible.
Brilliant. Here we have amost a Raskolnikov's story, from Crime and Punishment. I'd really like a sequel to see whether Dr.Horrible could repent like Raskolnikov did.
And "Cpt.Hammer will save us?" Such a twist. He should be saving them, yes, despite being such a dick. He restores order, and any order is better than chaos, as anyone who lived through chaos - war, civil unrest etc., could testify. But Cpt.Hammer is paralyzed with fear - he didn't get any resistance for so long it took one blow to push him over, send him into a frenzy of panic. Social commentary again, and not the very flattering one. Make of it what you will.
You know what, in the end, until he fired that Death Ray, I even started to come around on Cpt.Hammer, saw some hope for him. Penny was getting through to him a bit. His song to homeless had some good bits along with obnoxious stuff. And he too could totally get character growth in the sequel. Please?...
Writers cameos were great! And the groupies had a gay guy among them - nice touch, 'couse why not? :)
Great philosophical study here, this musical is almost like an essay. Something like "Chain" in Buffy-8. And Mutant Enemy doing Grrr... Arrggh? Bring it on!
Nata | July 19, 17:02 CET
Very cool, Joss.
NimNams | July 19, 17:02 CET
MattK | July 19, 17:07 CET
I think you can just make this "of the news".
The One True b!X | July 19, 17:10 CET
Sorry to take your quote out of context, WCityMike, but it leaped out at me. I wasn't sad that Penny died, but that her death killed Dr. Horrible. He was the beloved character for me. Felicia did a fine job playing the good-girl archetype, but in my estimation that's all it was. The character didn't change, didn't grow, and was therefore, expendable. The innocent catalyst caught between two warring factions.
I'm a little surprised no one mentioned, unless I missed it in over 1,000 posts since Act I, something Neil was doing. He had a nervous eye blink/twitch that was integral to the character; Michael Chekhov calls it the psychological gesture. I was so immersed in Act III last night in the first viewing, I didn't notice. But I'm 99.9% sure that twitch was completely gone. Brilliant touch.
Tonya J | July 19, 17:11 CET
Now, if the issue is the *kinds* of characters he kills off, I still am not sure that we have a "rote" or "self-parody" pattern emerging. We have patterns. There are the sweet, (relatively) innocent characters (Tara, Joyce, Fred) and the not purely sweet but still beloved characters (Cordy, Jenny) and we have the characters who die who have long, complex histories of sweet mixed with rather problematic behavior (Wesley, Anya). We have heroes who die (Buffy) and we have antiheroes-cum-heroes who die (Spike). There are a lot of deaths, but at least in my opinion, they are not a "trick." They matter. They evoke strong feelings. Witness all the heat in this thread. Very little of the complaints here are born of "yawn, whatever." Most of all, these deaths properly belong to these high stakes worlds. These are not shows about doctors or lawyers. These are shows about vampires and slayers and supervillains and heroes and people in space fighting against rampaging evil remnants of humanity.
Now, if the issue is in the way these deaths are set up, or the reactions they cause, or whatever, well, I suddenly don't have the energy to go there. Maybe someone else will pick that up. (I'm too tired from a tossing and turning night after Horrible. Yeah, it got to me.) All I'll say is that artists become known for certain traits, patterns, color schemes, brush strokes, pet tropes. To some observers such characteristic traits might become self-parody. It's all in the eye of the beholder. I suppose some would decry Shakespeare for being a hack for all those deaths in his "tragedies." And for all those silly complex identity mix-ups in his "comedies." Snarky Shakespeare reference aside, I'm not trying to be obnoxious here and say that I'm-right-you're-wrong-whoever-you-are. I'm (tiredly) trying to articulate my personal belief that Penny's death was not a tired, old hacky bit of self-parodying trickery
All that said, a part of me is wondering along with GVH if Joss won't get blithely assigned the pusher-of-doom tag in Hollywood. That wouldn't mean that the tag would be correct (imo), but in Hollywood, catchphrases and silly-simple summations stick. In another thread on the front page of whedonesque, one of the producers at HIMYM (I believe) assigns Joss that tag. Kind of.
TonyaJ: great points, both of them. I, too, had noticed the eye twitch in the first two eps and what seemed like its absence in the third. Must verify.
phlebotinin | July 19, 17:17 CET
MattK | July 19, 17:17 CET
[ edited by phlebotinin on 2008-07-19 17:22 ]
phlebotinin | July 19, 17:21 CET
"With my Freeze Ray I will stop." Billy stops. Dr Horrible continues.
Brilliant. Thank you Joss.
[ edited by malcolm on 2008-07-19 17:31 ]
malcolm | July 19, 17:21 CET
chance | July 19, 17:28 CET
The Londinium Sun | July 19, 17:29 CET
I will add that this refrain reminds me of something palehorse wrote on the flickr group recently about how the media pushes stories:
It strikes me that we perpetuate this death "cliche" by singling out that one element inecessantly, shriven of context and purpose. I don't even notice the fact of "Joss killing," in and of itself, until people start talking about the "Joss trademark," the "rote killing," the addiction to unhappy endings, etc. I notice whether it was a powerful moving story, or wasn't.
SoddingNancyTribe | July 19, 17:33 CET
Personally, I gave up any hope of Billy getting Penny in Act I - when he was torn between actually talking to the girl or stealing the wonderflonium for the partial purpose of freezing time long enough to think of what to say so he could talk to the girl. The other purpose would be acceptance into the ELE and all that follows quo-wise. But in Acts I and II Billy is obviously straddling the fence between evil intent and evil doing. And IMO he couldn't have made the evil leap alone.
That Billy was bullied by Captain Hammer seems to have informed his predilection towards evil. If you read the online comic at the Dark Horse website (which, by the way I immediately took as inspiration for Bad Horse) shows this abuse going back to their shared childhood. Yet the Dr.'s motivation is not revenge until he is profoundly provoked - and even then (as others have noted) he appears to hesitate. So whether he could have been redeemed or not is worthy of consideration. But all of Penny's love (should he have gotten it) couldn't make him change toward good unless he made a fundamental choice. One he was unable to make - to kill.
So the Captain inadvertently made that choice for him - killing Penny, though of course Dr. Horrible is still culpable and feels responsible. That she - again - mistakes the situation - with her dying words his despair is annealed, cauterized.
peacemonger | July 19, 17:39 CET
When I saw NPH's comment that he couldn't wait to find out what happens next, I assumed that meant it ended in a way that invited further story-telling, but to paraphrase some movie or other, I didn't see THIS coming. But that is the genius that is Joss. Even when you know the blast is coming, he always hides the dynamite in the place it doesn't occur to you to look.
So now we have growth potential for both protagonist and antagonist. Each has experienced something new - Billy the pain of loss, Capt. Hammer the pain of defeat, not to mention the pain of pain. I see them both emerging as more layered characters, and the battle between them will take on new texture. Each will blame the other for Penny's death. Does anyone else see the parallel here with Faith and the killing of the deputy mayor. Bill has caused a death and now is fully embracing the evil. Will he find a way back to the light - and Capt. Hammer, will he surprise us by coming back with a new depth and do something completely unexpected? It's Joss, count on it.
See, what we have here is the first chapter in an arc!
Okay, I am going on vacation for a week to a place where there is no internet connection. (Stop hyperventilating guys, you'd think I'd mentioned he who must not be named or something). Nice of Joss and co. to release the final episode before I left. Don't do anything fun here 'til I get back.
Cheers.
barboo | July 19, 17:40 CET
And it's never a trick. Joss loves his characters. That's why we do. A death in the Jossverse is ALWAYS about what it does to the other characters:-
Jenny's death was about Giles. Tara's was for Willow's arc. Joyce's was for Buffy's Gift. Fred's was for Wesley. Wash's was for Zoe.
I'm still waiting for Anya's to play out for Xander (but then I've not read much of 8 yet)
malcolm | July 19, 17:45 CET
Huh? I just re-read it because you said this, and I can't for the life of me see what you're talking about. Where is it?
The One True b!X | July 19, 17:45 CET
But whether in shock, or why-I-don't-know, she behaves toward Billy as Billy, then dies. But I am sure there is a moment of recognition there. Don't you see it too?
peacemonger | July 19, 17:47 CET
You do realize, though, that this precisely is why so many people rebel against it when it happens?
Half the backlash comes from a "so-and-so wasn't just a plot pawn to move another character's emotional story forward, she/he was an important character unto her/himself, so how dare you" perspective.
The One True b!X | July 19, 17:48 CET
[ edited by napua on 2008-07-19 17:52 ]
peacemonger | July 19, 17:49 CET
zeitgeist | July 19, 17:49 CET
The One True b!X | July 19, 17:50 CET
I think we always point that out because it moves us. Sure, the most important thing about the story is if it's a powerful story, or not, but I think that goes without saying, once we reacted so strongly to a characters death. If the story wasn't powerful, we wouldn't be talking about the deaths in it with such passion, I think.
We know people die. We now life sucks. But still, that moves us, because we care about the characters. So I think this kind of 'hate' after a character's death is normal. And after one day, we are all (almost all, anyway...) seeing it with less emotion and realizing that it was important to make the story so good.
And Joss is the master doing this... making us care about the people in the story. And that's why we have such strong feelings about everything he does.
maxsummers | July 19, 17:51 CET
peacemonger | July 19, 17:55 CET
The One True b!X | July 19, 17:59 CET
sarahisavampire | July 19, 17:59 CET
I agree. They seem surprised by the concept that the Jossverse is filled with good looking sock puppets under His control.
The clue's in the name people; Jossverse.
malcolm | July 19, 18:01 CET
petranef | July 19, 18:01 CET
Good advice, to be sure.
The One True b!X | July 19, 18:04 CET
The last part was definitely best.
Djungelurban | July 19, 18:04 CET
I wonder if those viewers come away feeling differently about the experience than those of us who saw each act individually, and had time to think, reflect (and yes, obsess) about the characters and storyline between each act viewing.
floofypooh | July 19, 18:05 CET
Hey, that makes sense. I'm a little less confused now.
"People die. In real life, all the time."
Yes, but every relationship in real life does not end in a tragic, untimely death that makes the other person go all dark and scary. I love that Joss is willing to kill of characters. It makes his stories so much more intense and believable. However, you can't deny that it's starting to get predictable which characters are going to die. And when it gets predictable, it loses it's impact.
RaisedByMongrels | July 19, 18:09 CET
Lhys | July 19, 18:19 CET
Simon | July 19, 18:20 CET
Is there really a problem if we recognise Joss's penmanship? Isn't it why we tune in?
And plenty of people on this thread (myself included) didn't see it coming
[ edited by malcolm on 2008-07-19 18:21 ]
malcolm | July 19, 18:20 CET
floofypooh | July 19, 18:25 CET
It is of scary length, yes. And to think I read every single comment on here. I'm starting to wonder if I'm sane ;).
Yeah, that's the same way I feel about Serenity or the early seasons of Buffy (before I started getting spoiled a lot), AlanD. The fandom makes the experience more instense and that's certainly also the case in Dr. Horrible, with its well-timed 'appointments' every other day. As an event, it worked extremely well.
GVH | July 19, 18:29 CET
Does it get old? No, not for me. As long as you can't predict it.
Krusher | July 19, 18:29 CET
"Guess-the-Whedomicide"
Each contestant names a character in a new JossShow most likely to meet an untimely end. Extra points for naming the manner of their demise.
[ edited by malcolm on 2008-07-19 18:31 ]
malcolm | July 19, 18:29 CET
I've gotta tell you, my punched gut disagrees strongly with you. Its not that it happens that's problematic, its if its done in a poorly executed way that leads to zero emotional resonance.
zeitgeist | July 19, 18:30 CET
If Dr. Horrible had been sold as a musical tragedy then I might have of it. But it wasn't. Act III Revenge of the Joss was probably one of the best things Whedon has ever filmed. I am amazed that I was so emotionally effected by events that were only 45 minutes long and by characters I have never seen before. Usually it takes a couple of seasons for me to get like that. Joss and co did it under an hour. You gotta wonder what Dollhouse will be like.
Also this can never be repeated. We as a fandom are now truly global. We watched a new Joss project at the exact same time all over the world. That's an incredible first for the fandom. Kudos to those involved with Dr. Horrible, you have my upmost admiration.
Simon | July 19, 18:31 CET
buffyangel299 | July 19, 18:31 CET
GVH: I like how you referenced Joss doing a "bait and switch" -- is that how a lot of people feel, like Moist? He wanted Bait, we took the bait of the humor and wound up with a switch with Penny getting killed (which many have suggested isn't really a switch but a Whedon thing).
It's fun to read all these posts!!!!!!!!!
whedongeek | July 19, 18:31 CET
I like the story. Sure, I was a little upset when it happened. I was disappointed their love story wasn't resolved to my liking. It wasn't' my story to tell. It works so beautifully. Thank you ME and the Whedon group and everyone else that brought us this classic tale of villainy.
thatweirdgirl | July 19, 18:32 CET
Rationally (is this spelled right?), I'd agree with RaisedByMongrels, but my gut agrees with zeitgeist
maxsummers | July 19, 18:35 CET
Then--what am I watching? Wait...what happened to the happy, the funny, the light?
Like almost everyone here, I was suckered in and then gutted. Wow.
And ouch.
Sadness and yes, disappointment. A completely foreign feeling for me when vising the Jossverse. I felt it was such a jarring tonal shift; it seemed disconnected from what had come before. Then they really and truly killed Penny! And Billy really became Dr. Horrible!
To be honest, I didn't like it at all.
I came here immediately to read if anyone else felt what I did. Took me almost an hour to read the comments at that point.
(Thanks, Saje, for "Circle of Black Beauty". I actually did laugh out loud at that, and that helped lift my mood from the dark, bad place.)
Then I watched all three Acts together, and wowza, what a huge difference!
They flow together perfectly, not jarring at all. ("Was I crazy this morning," I wondered)
Still painful, but no longer disappointing. Far from it.
Beautiful, heart-breaking, funny, smart, amazing. I can't articulate better than a list of adjectives at the moment.
Brilliant, just brilliant.
NPH blew me away. Nathan and Felicia were wonderful. Everything about this was great.
I don't have anything to add that others haven't already (more eloquently) stated.
Thank you to everyone involved with this. It was, it is, just fantastic.
Can't wait for the DVD.
Syren | July 19, 18:36 CET
I mentioned it after Act II - though I noticed it in Act I. And I didn't see it in Act III. It was the perfect touch, as malcolm put so succinctly, because, "Billy stops. Dr Horrible continues."
"phlebotinin: "There are a lot of deaths, but at least in my opinion, they are not a 'trick.' They matter."
Yes. I'm gonna quote from UnpluggedCrazy's email to me last night, because I like it: Joss is not a "one-trick Bad Horse."
If anything, life itself is a one-trick Bad Horse, because that sucker's coming (Mr. Blue-eyed Death) and he's aimed at you. Much of popular culture's entertainment helps you forget this annoying little Truth, but I think the good stuff helps you remember in a way that makes living more resonant.
Killing the innocent in fiction has a lot of layers (just like pie) - the death of the innocent represents the Death of Innocence that everyone must experience, and it also represents that in terms of death, we all are, ultimately innocent - we are all born innocent and yet born to to die, and it's not a question of "deserving it." The death of the innocent is shorthand for "the death of each one of us" - and you need shorthand in fiction, especially a piece so compressed as this.
My blerg/blog is called "Everything Matters" from a quote from Robertson Davies - as are many of my favorite quotes - but I'm thinking of changing it to "Everything Happens" in honor of Joss and Co., and mainly because is is so {expletive deleted} good.
@Caroline - awww... great minds indeed.
QuoterGal | July 19, 18:37 CET
Hear hear. Gives me warm and fuzzy feelings, reminds me of the time when the Buffy Bronze was online! Great times, especially when Troll posted :D
Krusher | July 19, 18:38 CET
Wash: I think they captured him, you know? His essence
Kaylee: Looks sorta like a tool, don't he?
Wash: 'S kinda what I meant.
zeitgeist | July 19, 18:38 CET
The co-Arch-dukes of Awesome strike again!
The One True b!X | July 19, 18:44 CET
Well, when there are only three characters in which the viewer can invest, the choices are few -- especially in a 43-minute play.
But the point made above that some characters are there to serve the emotional development of the main characters has to be seen as key. Were we not emotionally engaged even with the subsidiary characters, we would never be able to engage fully with the emotional trajectory of the main character(s). NPH is phenomenal in this in his communication of a full range of emotion in carefully-selected but small facial expressions and gestures. But were it not for our engagement with the other characters, he might as well have been making faces in a mirror (almost). His acting would not have had nearly the impact.
Someone above criticized Joss for using shortcuts, but all storytellers use shortcuts. And if I can draw an analogy with painting, in which a good artist must carefully communicate a message with an economy of means, because s/he has only the one canvas (usually) to work with, the artist uses all sorts of shortcuts. Certain kinds of lines communicate certain affective qualities; colors have symbolism; the position of objects on the surface communicates power or depth; certain characters are recognizable for what they hold, or what they do, as shorthand for their identities (a male figure hanging on a cross, for example). Joss is just doing the same thing. The fact that we see these as so predictable is because we know Joss's work so well. We know the way he constructs a story; we know what colors he uses. If he were to change radically, some would also complain.
I'm with the person above who would like to know how someone who is generally unfamiliar with Joss's work and who sees all the three parts in one viewing would respond.
ETA: Jeez, there must be thirty posts since I began to write this.
[ edited by palehorse on 2008-07-19 18:46 ]
palehorse | July 19, 18:45 CET
We need t-shirts ;). Can the Archdukes of Awesome open for Murder Rubicon? Ok, too much in-joke-ry ;). 518 does indeed seem like the longest thread.
zeitgeist | July 19, 18:47 CET
This IS kinda like the good ol' days. Numfar, do the Dance of Community Continuity! :-D
OzLady | July 19, 18:48 CET
I know what I want to say here... but I'm having trouble with the right words. Anybody have a clue what I'm talking about?
witch_kat | July 19, 18:49 CET
I'm thinking of changing to PinkPummeler, but I think it might be a euphemism
malcolm | July 19, 18:51 CET
Valentyn | July 19, 18:51 CET
Really wonderful point, Simon.
palehorse | July 19, 18:53 CET
That somehow too often seems to get lost in the shuffle, the fact that this is precisely what artists do, and I think a number of people here have sort of been doing yeoman's work explaining it.
The One True b!X | July 19, 18:53 CET
I don't know someone seeing all 3 acts at once, but about people unfamiliar with Joss's work, I created an orkut community for Dr. Horrible, and for my surprise, 80% of the people commenting there are non-Whedon fans (well, now they are...). It's been fun to discuss Dr. Horrible with them!
maxsummers | July 19, 18:54 CET
=D
5X5B | July 19, 18:55 CET
The One True b!X | July 19, 18:56 CET
phlebotinin | July 19, 18:56 CET
Well hopefully poor Penny's demise will pave the way for Giles to ride a horse on-screen...or would that be Moist riding a Black Horse?
side note: I keep thinking, it's a good thing they didn't tap Joss to adapt Mama Mia for the silver screen.
alexreager | July 19, 18:58 CET
The One True b!X | July 19, 18:59 CET
Everybody loved so far. They are amazed with how catchy the songs are, and they had heard about Buffy and Joss, but didn't know he could write songs as well. Most of them came from Musical communities, 'cause I posted adds for Dr. Horrible in some of them, so they really appreciated the musical aspect of it.
They are quite surprised of how they loved the characters as well, considering they had so little time to 'know' them. And they are creating communities for the characters and stuff...
It was very funny to see them wait until 1 am for ACT 2 and ACT 3 with me, and to see how excited they were after each act.
Let me see... what else...
Also, the funny quotes are being quoted a lot. 'The hammer is my pennis' led to some strange posts! =P
maxsummers | July 19, 19:04 CET
Bareback would be even funnier.
palehorse | July 19, 19:04 CET
The One True b!X | July 19, 19:06 CET
It flows much more smoothly as one big 40 minutes special.
And how cool is it that we have a thread with this many comments about some new filmed online special. I am absolutely loving seeing so many disparate opinions and interpretations, especially now that we have had a little time to think about it. :) Honestly reading everyones opinions, just like back in the old Buffy/Angel/Firefly days may be just as much fun as watching the musical was.
I really hope that they make the sequel. I'm dying to see it. And if they don't, at the very least I hope that Joss does something with Neil Patrick Harris again in the future. I like How I Met Your Mother, but I really enjoyed seeing him flex a little bit more.
[ edited by rabid on 2008-07-19 19:08 ]
rabid | July 19, 19:06 CET
[ edited by maxsummers on 2008-07-19 19:09 ]
maxsummers | July 19, 19:07 CET
How to make a true villain in 50 minutes or less.
QingTing | July 19, 19:09 CET
I have all kind of gripes, for a variety of reasons, why I didn't agree with the deaths in Serenity, but the death in Dr. Horrible is all kinds of brilliant. Just works on so many levels.
Do evil and see oneself as super powerful, and guess what? Things go wrong. Unintended consequences. Play with power and it can backfire... literally. Also, the twist of losing the thing he loved which then made it possible to get the thing he craved, well, that's classic, lyrical storytelling. Sad, but it makes sense and hits a psychic "true spot" in a way that the Serenity deaths never did... at least for me.
Utterly brilliant and very satisfying. Tis art.
Joss... do more please.
11thHour | July 19, 19:12 CET
You know, from the press reviews of "Horrible" before it premiered, I did not get a "tragic vibe" at all. Either those lucky press folks were keeping us spoiler-free (I remember reading that they were made to promise not to reveal certain key things) or they didn't get the pathos part or were unmoved by it. The latter seems really unlikely. But sometimes people don't expect much from genre, especially critics.
[ edited by phlebotinin on 2008-07-19 19:17 ]
phlebotinin | July 19, 19:14 CET
After skimming these 500-odd comments and letting my thoughts simmer, however, it does seem like this is the logical conclusion to DH not reining in (ahem) his jealous rage (but why no second chances? and what if an equally innocent bystander had been impaled instead?).
So yes, here we have an origin story, the genesis of DH, not an offbeat love story -- I guess if it were something throwaway and sappy, it would have somewhat diminished the genesis of this storytelling form, wouldn't it?
Many thanks to theonetruebix for pointing out DH's true state in the last shot -- he's not blogging in costume anymore, I wonder what that implies. I was really confused by that quick shot -- this show may only be 45 minutes long, but it's definitely not popcorn entertainment!
With all that talk of super-duper, never-before-in-history DVD extras, perhaps there'll be more Horribleness in store? Neil Patrick Harris = amazing. Nathan Fillion = astonishing. Felicia Day = so sweetly vulnerable (caught The Guild -- great work there too!). Half-expected her to have some villain-involved past/present/future (uh, scratch the future). Supporting cast (horse included) = awesome.
To the Whedons: thank you, and congratulations!!
[ edited by starbreez on 2008-07-19 19:18 ]
starbreez | July 19, 19:16 CET
Yeah! I convinced some of them to watch Firefly and Dollhouse! Buffy is harder, 'cause you know... 7 seasons... but it's a start! =]
Oh, and they are also watching The Guild...
[ edited by maxsummers on 2008-07-19 19:20 ]
maxsummers | July 19, 19:19 CET
I'm now in the process of writing a review of Dr. Horrible. Usually, I don't have any trouble writing movie reviews. But as an invested fan, it's proving pretty hard to strike the right, slightly-detached tone needed without being a fanboy (which would be, like, unprofessional ;)). It's also hard to be insightfull-enough-without-spoiling. That usually isn't an issue, but much of the beauty and things that resonate in Dr. Horrible only get revealed in Act III. I'll struggle on, though :).
jeez, this thread just wont. stop. growing. :)
ETA:
Y'know, I've been wondering about that as well. As a fan I'm now struggling if I should point out in my review, that Dr. Horrible goes through a whole spectrum of emotions and has some good drama in there too (only, more eloquent, like ;)), because it might lessen the impact. On the other hand, if I hadn't been a big old fanboy, that would have not been an issue. Commenting on the tone of a piece is not spoiling. It's actually rather essential in most reviews, I'd say. So it's quite a mystery to me, why most reviews we were reading beforehand failed to mention the fact that it has a very dramatic climax and denouement. I offer no ready explanations.
[ edited by GVH on 2008-07-19 19:26 ]
GVH | July 19, 19:20 CET
Apocalypse | July 19, 19:20 CET
Edited to add: I keep checking the status of "Horrible" at the U.S. itunes. It's still rated the number one "TV" series. Acts 1,2, and 3 are in the top #2-4 spots of top-selling episodes. For the last couple of days there's been this non-"Horrible" episode occupying the #1 spot. I want it gone! Gone! I want "Horrible" to dominate completely!
[ edited by phlebotinin on 2008-07-19 19:26 ]
phlebotinin | July 19, 19:21 CET
After that origin, I could see Dr. Horrible doing some pretty horrible things...believably! Nothing supports the depravity of a villain like a heaping helping of lost love with a side of self pity.
alexreager | July 19, 19:23 CET
He does it to us, he does, every time. We forget because he distracts us with shiny things, he does.
And he dragged his family into the whole sordid mess. It's like a Family Rainy Day Craft Project of EVIL. The Gilded Macaroni Art of DOOM.
And yet, we still put it on the refrigerator of our hearts. ::sigh::
beadtific | July 19, 19:26 CET
Also, do you have any idea how difficult it was to keep "the hammer is my penis" line under wraps? You try knowing about it for a week and not saying anything. Suckage! Glad to hear the happy chants and rants from all. Well deserved success-age!
Kat Jetson | July 19, 19:26 CET
When's the next one coming out?
library hooligan | July 19, 19:28 CET
That being ranted, I loved it! The whole thing was amazing and totally lived up to all the anticipation, which was a lot. I thnk Act II had my favorite songs and dialogue. Thanks for continuing your awesomeness, Joss & co. I'll hope for more webisodes and the miraculous, secret recovery of Penny as Dr. Horrible's new super-heroine nemesis...What?
PS Is Dead Bowie a Bowie poser or is Mr. Bowie hiding his E.L.E. alter ego from the public?
platinum baby | July 19, 19:28 CET
yo-saff-bridge: unless I'm going mad, the credits say that Dead Bowie is played by Jed Whedon. Am I right?
phlebotinin | July 19, 19:32 CET
I disagree :). What this does, is show the dichotomy of the Dr. Horrible/Billy persona, as someone on this thread already pointed out. First Dr. Horrible was his 'blog'/fantasy persona, and Billy was his public face. After what happens to Penny, Billy is now trapped, numbed and - at the moment? - powerless inside the public, evil, Dr. Horrible persona. Plus, it's just a lot more gut-wrenching to see that final glimpse of the character we grew to love through all three Acts. Nah, I would certainly not have changed that.
Also: thanks for explaining that, Kat Jetson! And yes, phlebotinin, I'm already reconsidering. I might use an equivalent of 'pathos' (I write in Dutch :)) for explanatory purposes. Or I might just hint at 'inversion of expectations' and 'flipping of character archetypes' (which I do already) or use the 'three layers'-bit from Act II and hint that that resonates even more, later on. I'll get there in a non-spoilery way, in the end :).
GVH | July 19, 19:37 CET
beckyboo | July 19, 19:37 CET
Krusher | July 19, 19:38 CET
For any cosplayers out there, it seems like welding goggles are the closest match to Dr. Horrible's. A quick google search can find you some very cheaply that you can then modify... I've also been looking at instructables.
[ edited by MattK on 2008-07-19 19:39 ]
MattK | July 19, 19:38 CET
I've been thinking of that the whole time I've been reading this thread - which took forever. Tons and tons of posts.
Billy's decent into evil does seem much like Faith's run. I don't think he really wants to be evil - not deep in his heart - but I think now he feels that's all he is.
I wish I wasn't so tired right now so I could explain it better. I had to work early this morning and I didn't sleep well last night so I'm pretty much all fire bad. tree pretty right now.
It didn't help that I made the mistake of watching Act III right before I went to work. I had to fight tears all the way to work and I've been walking around in shock all day.
I haven't gotten a chance to see Act III for a second time yet but now that I've had more time to think I will say it ended the way it had to end. It works really well for the story - though it doesn't work so well for my emotional state of mind.
It speaks volumns about the talent of Joss and the gang that we feel so powerful moved by characters we've only known for 45 minutes - well minus all the time spent watching and rewatching Acts I & II the last few days.
Well, I think I'm rambling way too much so I'm going to go now. Hopefully I'll be able to post more articulate thoughts after I've had some real sleep.
Charisma69 | July 19, 19:39 CET
The One True b!X | July 19, 19:41 CET
Kat Jetson | July 19, 19:49 CET
The One True b!X | July 19, 19:51 CET
Not here, absolutely not in this context. This musical is a social commentary, a distilled version, of situations replayed all over the world all over history. Rebels who start as idealists attack the establishment, innocent people get killed, and the new powers are not better than the old ones.
Times when such situations have a happy ending can be counted on fingers.
Having a tragic end to this story is not a trick, it's extremely realistic.
If it was a usual Jossverse romance story and nothing more - yes, we might say it would be too much and predictable, to break the chance of happiness, to kill someone to break someone's heart. Romances, relationships do have happy endings regularly.
But this kind of thing, here? Almost never.
Nata | July 19, 19:55 CET
I only just noticed this, I saw it first in the laundromat scene with Captain Hammer. Very cool.
MattK | July 19, 19:57 CET
Also, I hadn't thought about it before, but yes, I do think Billy's descent is comparable to that of Faith on some levels. Nice thinking, barboo & Charisma69!
GVH | July 19, 20:01 CET
Krusher | July 19, 20:05 CET
platinum baby | July 19, 20:05 CET
GVH | July 19, 20:09 CET
I was totally fooled about what was coming because I got so engrossed in Captain Hammer's speech/song about Heroes. It was a strange mixture of good and bad sounding very much like an adolescent. I think that, together with what followed, it was making the point that Captain Hammer had never truly grown up because he had never felt pain and dealt with pain.
I do think that's something that Joss believes and wants to write about. He does it talking about the thousand emotional cuts that high school inflicts and about the death of a beloved character, even the death of a parent. Joss creates characters we love more so we feel it more when they die.
There's also more of a contrast between Joss and the general produce of Hollywood. Our local fan group here has got rather bored with Hollywood films/TV as too saccharine and we have developed a taste for Chinese/Japanese movies where there is a genuine tension over who is going to live or die. If you think Joss kills too many characters then I would advise you not to come within a million miles of these! You might also want to consider avoiding the legend of King Arthur, the legend of Robin Hood and that play about Romeo and Juliet.
I'm not sure Joss always gets it right, particularly after reading about the pain experienced by some Tara fans, but I don't want Joss to start playing safe. I want him to keep pushing himself and keeping us all on the edge.
technovamp | July 19, 20:17 CET
Before the statue was "unveiled", I was wondering how they'd made one on such a low budget. I was wondering if they'd talked an over-eager arts student into making one for them. :)
MattK | July 19, 20:18 CET
Krusher | July 19, 20:21 CET
library hooligan | July 19, 20:28 CET
A play in which, I should point out, one of the very first things you hear is Chorus telling you that the title characters are going to die. And yet you still get towards the end wrapped up in their story.
The One True b!X | July 19, 20:29 CET
First, I'd like to address a couple of the comments. Once again, I find myself having to take issue with the whole "Joss gives us what we need, not what we want" thing. That sort of deifying incantation may satisfy some of you, but it doesn't satisfy me. I knew, even before I started to read the comments in depth, that at least one person would say that, followed by several "Oh yeah, that's right" replies. Seriously, is this the Whedonesque version of the Apostle's Creed? I believe in Joss the Father Almighty, maker of what we need and not what we want... It gets to be a little much after a while, people. Joss does not know what we need.
Also, whoever drew some sort of parallel between this and the writer's strike...are you kidding me?! I've tried to make sense of this association in any number of ways, and at a more detailed level, it simply doesn't work. Try it and see.
Now, onto "Dr. Horrible" itself. I must side with those who not only noticed a drastic shift in tone between the second and third acts, but found it inexcusable. It's not that I have any objection on principle to something moving from a comically parodic beginning to a dark conclusion, or vice versa. But a piece has to remain true to its characters to accomplish that transition, and it also has to maintain some sort of internal balance. This did neither.
From the beginning, it was painfully obvious that as things stood, the doctor didn't have what it took to become a supervillain, and that Captain Hammer was not a real superhero. Yet they both felt like they existed (or in Dr. Horrible's case, should exist) in those respective modes, and were both acting that way. In short, they were mirrors of each other. The ending should either have centered with both of them giving into their feelings and quitting their respective roles (which would have been more comic but more fluffy), or had them both find motivated reasons from within their personas to really become what everyone else thought they were (Penny's death could have been the perfect catalyst for this darker and more satisfying ending).
Instead, what we have is half of the first and half of the second...and the worse halves in both cases. Captain Hammer is revealed as anything but a hero, even "in his own way" -- he's just a self-absorbed, whiny coward who won't accept the consequences for his actions and goes whining to Mommy the first time he gets hurt. The story leaves us with no hope that he will ever learn about the harder side of being a hero, the sacrifice and pain involved...or that he will ever reassume that mantle out of necessity, to prevent others from being as devastated as he was.
Dr. Horrible, meanwhile, recognizes his complicity in Penny's death. Trapped in the narrow hero/villain framework, he does the only thing he can...having helped to kill a complete innocent, villainy is the only thing left for him. (I do remain astonished, however, that his assassination attempt gone wrong was still enough to get him into the Evil League of Evil. Those guys must have no standards.) Yet even with all that, the end makes it clear that he is still not a villain underneath, and suffers profoundly.
In short, what we have here is a story with no hero or villain. We only have a coward, an emotionally devastated person, and a seeming denial of the whole hero/villain dynamic. I want to be clear -- what I see here is not Joss saying "There aren't comic book heroes and villains in the world...things are more complicated than that on both sides." That I would sympathize with. Instead, I don't see a real hero or a real villain, of the comic-book variety or any other, anywhere in this story. That's just WRONG.
Though I appreciate "Dr. Horrible" more than I did before, now that I've seen all the little connections (some of which people in this thread alerted me to), if anything, I like it less. A lot less. Frankly, and I say this with no small reflection on the import of the comment and how you will receive it, I think it's the worst thing he's ever made, both aesthetically and morally speaking.
This is the first time I've ever seen a Joss Whedon work and known I could do better.
BAFfler | July 19, 20:34 CET
Some brief notes:
Regarding all of us watching at once. I was interested to see the Alexa link Simon posted, whilst not necessarily correct, it was interesting to see that there were actually quite a lot of German viewers (more than Australia, even). I was thinking about foreign subtitles, but I'm not too sure how well a musical would work subtitled, I don't have any experience with that. ETA: In case anyone who hasn't seen the Alexa stats is wondering, I'm only pointing Germany out because it's the only non-English-speaking country that was giving major traffic to drhorrible.com.
Now, about the thing itself. The first time I saw Act II, the spork scene didn't seem right for me. It carried on that one beat too long, because it was a little creepy, the way he didn't stop doing it and the scene just ended. But now, after seeing Act III, the spork scene is perfect.
[ edited by MattK on 2008-07-19 20:37 ]
MattK | July 19, 20:35 CET
Why is that wrong?
(Not being flippant. I'd like to see an expansion of this remark.)
The One True b!X | July 19, 20:37 CET
The One True b!X | July 19, 20:41 CET
Lady Brick | July 19, 20:45 CET
"It's certainly a strange feeling being unspoilt for a Joss production. I haven't been like since Buffy season 5 aired."
Oh wow Simon, for everything he's written since Season 5 ? (including Fray? Or does "production" not include comics?) For everything in Seasons 3 to 5 of Angel, the entirety of Firefly and Serenity too ? For serious?
Was it solely due to your mod duties here and needing to read every news item and thread, or was it a conscious decision to spoil yourself ?
newjc said:
"I'm sure not all comic books are damn comic books, but so far that is all I feel like we have been getting from Joss...here we finally have live action and it is another damn comic book with another ending that feels like it is just a set up to sell another damn comic book and I feel ripped off because I was looking forward to buying the DVD of this and now I don't want to unless there is another 40 minutes or so...and/or an ending."
Did Fray not have a closed/satisfying enough conclusion ? I thought it was complete back when I read it, though that doesn't stop me hoping for more and being [cautiously] glad that we're getting some in Season 8.
A couple people quoted:
"Each man kills the thing he loves"
Oh yay, so that's supposedly deep or binding or something when it comes to quality operatic storytelling and it's a reflection of a more well-read, literary-device-minded person if they respect that route for the story ? Meh.
Must re-emphasize. I loved this project, just not the ending. Yeah, I'm fine with him becoming the villain, pretty much figured that was the point of this from the beginning (unless they went for more comedy at Billy's expense and just had him fail at everything but getting with Penny or at least staying friends with her). The girl didn't need to die though. And I don't wanna start a flame war, but Joss has killed off more main female main characters than male at this point, it's getting old (but yeah, I still agree that Penny was the only one who could die without destroying the chances of a sequel--Hammer should definitely be in it). I haven't done the math to figure out if we've had more women than men in the main and major supporting casts from his three shows though, 'cause then statistically it would at least fit, given the odds.
malcolm said:
"A death in the Jossverse is ALWAYS about what it does to the other characters:-
Jenny's death was about Giles. Tara's was for Willow's arc. Joyce's was for Buffy's Gift. Fred's was for Wesley. Wash's was for Zoe.
I'm still waiting for Anya's to play out for Xander (but then I've not read much of Season 8)"
I don't think it's always solely about how the deaths effect the other characters. You're sad for the person it happened to as well, their life cut short. I was still enjoying watching Tara and Wash, so those hurt (Fred's cut deep too, but the character wasn't worth much to the show anymore and it produced Illyria, so I'd say the death-trade was fair) When there's terror and/or pain leading up to it, it can make it more impactful too (Jenny, Fred, arguably Joyce even though many probably assumed she was safe after the operation went fine). I think Anya's death was about her overall arc too though, not just something to give us Xander-in-pain-and-dealing-with material later on and an anguished cry while searching for her in "Chosen". Season 7 was huge for Anya, in two episodes in particular ("Selfless" and whichever episode she's talking to Andrew about how she's grown fond of humanity). It was about her re-discovering her own humanity/compassion and, in the end, being willing to risk her life for them instead of high-tailing it out of Sunnydale when things got real bleak (compare with Season 3 Anya).
***SPOILERS for Joss' 6-issue arc on Runaways***
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I was a tiny bit surprised no one big died in Runaways (hah, but he employed one of the harshest and best punishments I've ever seen done to two villains).
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Kris | July 19, 20:45 CET
Act III definitely shocked me, but that's what Joss does best.
Thank you.
MadeToLoveJoss | July 19, 20:48 CET
phlebotinin | July 19, 20:54 CET
Tonya J | July 19, 20:59 CET
Nata | July 19, 19:55 CET
I agree, but I'm surprised that this is where we ended up. Given the circumstances surrounding it, I expected the message of the musical to be that challenging the status quo is a positive thing.
[ edited by cypher on 2008-07-19 21:02 ]
NotaViking | July 19, 21:00 CET
No offense, but this means you did not love this project.
The One True b!X | July 19, 21:04 CET
Frankly I don't believe that there wasn't a continuity of character heading into the third act. The final song of act 2, that smile that goes on Billie's face before he sings about killing Captain Hammer is the moment where there is a shift, and his impulses as a villain kick in. They kick in since he was fundamentally attacked, he was jealous, and he loved Penny.
You are absolutely right about what the characters turn out to be in the end. But I don't see the problem with that. When you make the choice to create a musical starring the "villain" than fundmamentally the roles are going to be murky. Captain Hammer is a rude, smirking, whiny child. Doctor Horrible is an anarchist super-villain with a soul underneath his chosen vocation. I don't understand the problems with that.
I have no doubt that you could write something that you yourself would have enjoyed more. Your argument however does not make me think that what you would have written would have appealed more to me. I certainly believe your opinion and points are valid, but I disagree almost entirely with your final conclusions.
And many of us who did like it didn't comment on the "we get what we need, not what we want." I never use that phrase when discussing Joss' work, since each project and story choice must stand on it's basis. I think fundamentally, utilizing that to simply ignore opposing arguments is problematic.
rabid | July 19, 21:04 CET
speechlady | July 19, 21:06 CET
again, I find myself having to take issue with the whole "Joss gives us what we need, not what we want" thing. That sort of deifying incantation may satisfy some of you, but it doesn't satisfy me. I knew, even before I started to read the comments in depth, that at least one person would say that, followed by several "Oh yeah, that's right" replies. Seriously, is this the Whedonesque version of the Apostle's Creed? I believe in Joss the Father Almighty, maker of what we need and not what we want... It gets to be a little much after a while, people. Joss does not know what we need
Baffler, there's gonna be rampant fanboyism here, kinda the point of the site to some degree (well, Whedon news and fun/interesting/sometimes-heated discussion in a respectful manner is, ideally, the point of this site, I guess). I get carried away myself sometimes (uh, like with the thread for Dr. Horrible Act 2 and probably Act 1). Personally I can deal with even the most ridiculous displays of Joss-worship when they're done in respect and love of his work, but only have a problem with them when they quote Joss' own words from his Buffy posting board days in an attempt to win a debate (which, to be fair, hasn't been a big problem in this otherwise awesome thread, but I see your point because it does happen a lot). And yes, it gets painfully annoying when it comes from folks who believe Joss never or almost never does anything open for criticism (everything is fair game, really) and is the best writer ever (one of them in TV/film/comics[I think he's still proving himself in that last field, definitely uphill so far though], fine, but geez some Whedon fans need to keep trying new things).
Kris | July 19, 21:08 CET
MattK | July 19, 21:12 CET
"No offense, but this means you did not love this project."
How do you figure, bix ? I got the potential message(s) Joss might've been going for (some I saw while viewing, some were suggested here by people analyzing the whole thing--thanks for in-depth reads, guys), so it's not like I didn't understand it. And overall, I love Dr. Horrible (I guess I shouldn't say I didn't like the ending entirely--I liked the walk into the supervillain lair and seeing Bad Horse and his cronies). Y'know, like how you can love Buffy, Angel, or Firefly without loving every single aspect of them ?
So why does me not liking something that happend in the ending (Penny's death, not Horrible's transformation, which was almost a given) prevent me from being correct in saying I loved the project ?
[ edited by Kris on 2008-07-19 21:14 ]
Kris | July 19, 21:13 CET
Tell you the truth, I too was suprised. Change=good, establishment=bad seemed to be a motto of the strike. But knocking over the system is a painful thing, and if we look at the history of mankind, it almost never ends well.
Penny's way, or Anne's way from NFA (whom I see as Penny's kindred) seem to be the way to go, but those good acts are often trumpled over by powers fighting each other.
And by the way, if you follow Angel:ATF comics, Anne's fate is very likely to be similar to Penny's.
I do think change is good when it's needed. And critique of the establishment was here aplenty. Cpt.Hammer represented it. But what they were saying here seemed like it's never that simple.
I maybe even seeing a bit of self-searching here, as Dr.Horrible seemed to start almost like author's alter-ego. I.e. what do we do, how do we change the world? Are we doing the right thing (or were)? I see some self-reflection in this piece.
Nata | July 19, 21:14 CET
malcom, so far as I can tell, Fred's death was about Joss wanting to see Amy Acker play Illyria (both have said so repeatedly). Had Fred not died, she probably wouldn't have gotten together with Wesley, so Wesley was on the road to serious misery anyway. If anybody, her death affected *Gunn* more, in a sort of "Dr. Horrible" way (though he wasn't aiming to be evil, just not be who he was). Which leads me to ...
fluffypooh, palehorse, I saw all three segments one after the other. My immediate thought was, "Oh, I think this is what Joss was going for in 'Buffy' Season 6." Dr. Horrible is a lot like the nerds, very funny but very indignant about a host of humiliations -- and then there's an oops. There are some similarities to Willow as well. The thing with "Buffy" Season Six was, there were too many other factors to go for this effect precisely. But Joss Whedon's writing is often about how villains *become* villains. They don't start out as hateful people -- just slightly oblivious individuals who want to be better and cooler than they are, taking drastic steps that often destroy innocent parties, sometimes innocent parties who they love. See Gunn re: Fred, Andrew re: Jonathan (they were best friends, despite Andrew's somewhat stronger feelings for Warren). This also *might* be true of Willow, but Willow was not responsible for Tara's death. While I have no evidence of this, I think it's possible that there may have been a conceptual version where Willow's magic use might have been instrumental in Tara's death, but that would be too hard to come back from -- I don't think anybody wanted a whole season seven of Buffy vs. DarkWillow (okay, *I* sure didn't, and I surmise Mutant Enemy didn't want it either, because that's not what we saw) and I doubt there was any chance Willow/Alyson Hannigan was ever going to be off "Buffy" before the very last scene. But all of these themes recur one way or another in Whedon's work. It's about how good if slightly sad people wind up doing horrific evil in the name of wanting to sing "I don't feel a thing" (incidentally, one of the lyrics in the David Greenwalt-penned song sung by Lindsay at Caritas) to ward off the horrible (yes, deliberate word choice) pain of what they have done in the quest of the horrible pain of just being who they are. It's a much more visceral, impactful syllogism -- if/then -- than either an editorial piece or something that says at the start, "This is tragic. These people are so depressed that something bad happening to them or something bad that they do isn't going to make things *that* much worse for them or our view of them." The tragedy here is bad things happening to good people, and good people doing terrible things and of course idiots who present themselves as heroes going around blithely creating disaster (pick your own real-life metaphor on that last one :) ). I would love to know if Joss Whedon thinks of themes and then how to illustrate them, or if he creates characters and they walk into what he wants to talk about. Either way, I think it's a great metaphor and really terrific work on the parts of all parties concerned. (And I do think there are moments where Neil Patrick Harris as Dr. Horrible really looks like Joss Whedon in video interviews.)
And wow, long post.
Shapenew | July 19, 21:26 CET
b!x- While you've made a lot of good points, I think you are being unfair here.
Loose Deckplate | July 19, 21:27 CET
Vinity | July 19, 21:31 CET
That's okay. But it's what I believe. The ending is part of the project, so I don't get how one can prefer a different ending but still say they love the project.
(Do I need to slug everything I say with "my opinion is that...", or can we all just accept that as a given?)
The One True b!X | July 19, 21:37 CET
'Each man kills the thing he loves'
Oh yay, so that's supposedly deep or binding or something when it comes to quality operatic storytelling and it's a reflection of a more well-read, literary-device-minded person if they respect that route for the story ? Meh.
No. But it's interesting that that's your interpretation of its use in this thread.
I posted my "Ballad of Reading Gaol" excerpt because 1) that's precisely what came into my mind when I watched Act III and 2) I think it's beautiful, too, and wanted to share something I thought was relevant with you'all.
That's all. Make of that what you will.
QuoterGal | July 19, 21:41 CET
"IMO" is assumed, yeah, but your opinion didn't make sense to me is all. Do you agree that someone can love Buffy, Angel, and Firefly without liking every component of them ? Or even without liking "Chosen" or "Not Fade Away" or "Objects in Space"/"Serenity" ?
So why wouldn't the same apply to Dr. Horrible ? Because of length ?
No attacking your opinion, definitely not, just curious/requesting some further explanation, should you be in the mood to provide it.
[ edited by Kris on 2008-07-19 21:49 ]
Kris | July 19, 21:41 CET
I'll have more to say on this next week or so. I want to check some sources first, otherwise you guys will tear me a new one for every character I type. And you probably will anyway.
Point is this isn't any kind of atypical ending, in musical, comic book, super-villain, love story, or basic story at all. happens ALL THE TIME.
Ed R | July 19, 21:42 CET
MattK | July 19, 21:46 CET
is completely accurate. The nerd trio - Warren, especially - had already shown themselves to be evil, by their conscious actions (or lack thereof). And while Dr. Horrible is now, after three acts trapped in an evil persona, and has become a villain, I'm not sure he, himself, is actually evil. Surely, he did nothing that had a direct influence on the events as they unfolded. He created the situation by his misguided desire to be respected and important, yes. But he did not to anything that could be considered evil, directly. He only ever stunned Captain Hammer, did some stealing without violence and hesitated to kill Captain Hammer when he had the chance. He also tried to stop Doctor Horrible from pulling the trigger, when he saw the death ray was maltfunctioning. It's ambiguous if he would have become evil by himself, without this outside push (he may have shot Cpt. Hammer after all, or may have been simply pleeding for his life with his warning), but what I take away from it, is that he is forced, by cicumstance and other people's opinions of him (and guilt for his role in the events) to assume a new role, because he must stop feeling to deal with things. the last shot proves it to me: someone who feels so much pain to the point of numbness, cannot be completely, unredeemable evil.
I therefore think the parallel that barboo drew with Faith's turn to the darkside is more accurate here.
ETA: Quotergal: I thought the poem was beautifull and tragic and very relevant to what Act III made me feel. I had never heard it before. So thanks for that.
[ edited by GVH on 2008-07-19 21:50 ]
GVH | July 19, 21:48 CET
It's more, to me, akin to saying something like "I loved Chosen, except for what happens with Spike", rather than, say, "I loved Buffy, but I hated episode X". To me, one can love Buffy but dislike certain episodes. But one couldn't claim to love "Chosen" while professing dislike for some major component of it.
As I said, I'm not sure how to quantify it, exactly.
[ edited by theonetruebix on 2008-07-19 21:50 ]
The One True b!X | July 19, 21:48 CET
MattK | July 19, 21:49 CET
karosurly | July 19, 21:51 CET
I think this is definitely true, and the specific magic incident is Buffy's resurrection. There's the "death of the innocent" bit with the faun in "Bargaining," the constant references to the price of Willow's magic, the cut to Buffy's eyes fluttering open when Willow says, "Bring her back!" And then there's Willow's monologue to Kennedy in "Anywhere But Here" which basically continues the thought. My theory is that this was meant to be made more explicit originally and then the writers backed down and then did it thematically. Note also that Warren mirrors Willow (compare Warren/Katrina in "Dead Things" to Willow/Tara in "OMWF"/"Tabula Rasa", some of their words about the slayer in season six, Willow's pretty much self-descriptive comments while torturing him) and so thematically the death of Tara is again placed on Willow.
WilliamTheB | July 19, 21:54 CET
For what it's worth, I got around to watching it all in one go today and still love it. Enjoyed the re-watch hugely, actually. The songs have been in my head all morning and afternoon.
Not liking one part of the ending doesn't ruin the experience, though I see that it unfortunately did for a few people. It's the old "can't please everyone". For me this has just been a one-sided argument with the creator(s) anyway. A bit of satisfying venting to go along with my heaps of praise, but useless all the same.
Kris | July 19, 21:56 CET
I think one can have their most favorite and least favourite parts of DH and still love the whole thing. IMO. :)
Loose Deckplate | July 19, 21:57 CET
I'd really find it clumsy and tiring if I had to write "in my opinion" every time I post something, and read "in my opinion" in every single comment from someone else.
I mean, in a thread like this, is someone here really worrying that I'm going to express an opinion and someone will mistake it for Revealed Truth, and so I have to hedge everything I say with a blatant "IMO"?
The One True b!X | July 19, 21:57 CET
samatwitch | July 19, 22:01 CET
korkster | July 19, 22:04 CET
And while the part that Kris dislikes is a very integral part to the story, it's still hard to draw the line (as you rightfully already point out): do we have to love every song for instance, to love the entire thing? It's a slippery slope, and would probably differ for everyone, where they'd draw the line for "still love this, despite [insert element here]".
Also (and with all respect, I'm not attacking anyone or saying anybody did or said anything wrong here): while I think that everyone reads something with an 'IMO' behind it automatically, I think it's the specific wording here that came across as wrong. When you state that someone did not love something, that probably reads like "I'm deciding for you that you did not love this, because you did not meet the requirements for loving it", while you were actually saying (but correct me if I'm wrong): "I can't imagine you loving this, without liking this essential element". There's a difference in wording there that might get misinterpreted even when applying an auto-IMO, I think. Plus, everyone is probably tired from reading this MONSTER-MUTANT-THREAD which is freaking 130 pages + :)
GVH | July 19, 22:05 CET
and omjoss, 600+ replies!!
Krusher | July 19, 22:09 CET
And after two freakin' hours with AT&T tech support with no end in sight, and then that implication of - what, literary posturing? - I really needed that.
I quote because I love. And like Joss (who, by the way, would be insulted by deification) what I love, I love hard. And I loved this musical.
And that is really all for now.
QuoterGal | July 19, 22:16 CET
SoddingNancyTribe | July 19, 22:21 CET
Just about. If there were spoilers there , I read them. Though I did make a conscious effort to stay away from them for the Buffy season 5 finale. Which led to me screaming at the telly when Spike got his soul back.
It would hard to mod here and not read the spoiler threads. And I do make conscious efforts to spoil myself. These days I only try to remain unspoiled for games. Silent Hill 2, Star Ocean 3 and Bioshock? Those twists I didn't see coming.
And in general, remember that other posters are entitled to their own opinions.
Marital law hasn't gone away you know.
Neither have I.
Or the commenting on this thread by the looks of it.
Simon | July 19, 22:21 CET
Tonya J | July 19, 22:23 CET
I just want to see how it ends :P.
It hasn't been like this since the days of the special Serenity screenings and that was four years ago. A lifetime for most fandoms. I do like the end of the wilderness years it must be said. And now I'm going to play the final sequence for the fiftieth time. Best Whedon sequence ever? It's on a par with the greatest moments bit at the end of Lessons.
Simon | July 19, 22:27 CET
Anyhoo. Lest I be accused of beating Bad Horse himself, that's it for me on that.
karosurly | July 19, 22:34 CET
Um, Simon, I haven't really read the other posts, but did you maybe mean "martial" law?
Banter | July 19, 22:36 CET
[ edited by speechlady on 2008-07-19 22:46 ]
speechlady | July 19, 22:45 CET
chance | July 19, 22:47 CET
angryhippie | July 19, 22:52 CET
cronopiogal | July 19, 22:53 CET
[ edited by Giles_314 on 2008-07-19 22:55 ]
Giles_314 | July 19, 22:54 CET
KLeigh | July 19, 22:57 CET
Tonya J | July 19, 23:01 CET
It's a gag with limited legs.
Simon | July 19, 23:02 CET
(You did mean we have to get married to keep our w-memberships, right? 'Cause the presents are starting to roll in, and some of 'em are cherry. I'm not sending 'em back.)
QuoterGal | July 19, 23:06 CET
ETA: That when I unfortunately guessed "death ray" from the first picture.
[ edited by korkster on 2008-07-19 23:11 ]
korkster | July 19, 23:09 CET
I guess I ended up saying nothing... O.o
...
And about the 'biggest thread ever'...
I do like the end of the wilderness years it must be said.
hehe, Simon, I think if I was a mod I'd be like: 'pleaseeeeee, end with this thread already!', but I have to say that I'm finding this really REALLY fun to be a part of! Wasn't very fun to read the big threads 4 years ago and not being able to comment (I do not know how I manage to miss the registration dates for so many years), so I usually read just the first posts...
maxsummers | July 19, 23:11 CET
I like this thread, but I can't wait to hear how Dr. Horrible did! One more day!
korkster | July 19, 23:15 CET
And many many MANY thanks to Media Temple for keeping us going. And of course to all of our moderators and technical staff. (Oooh, that sounds so professional! ;)
cabri | July 19, 23:18 CET
ETA: And I second what korkster said about the stalking, heh. For some reason I had my account for quite a while before I started using it.
I really hope Dr. Horrible gets up on iTunes in the UK soon. Apart from better quality (sound especially), if it's not then I won't be able to see it again after Sunday.
[ edited by MattK on 2008-07-19 23:25 ]
MattK | July 19, 23:23 CET
You do? Really?
I try not to spoil myself when I'm linking all of your wonderful threads but sometimes, it's simply unavoidable.
Also, wow. I can't keep up with the comments on here. Lots of posts to think on and chew over.
menomegirl | July 19, 23:24 CET
And now I'm going to play the final sequence for the fiftieth time. Best Whedon sequence ever?
All human pain is written in NPH's expression at the end. That's gotta contend for one of the most powerful moments in all Whedonia for me and I wouldn't change it for Chinaesque amounts of tea.
Saje | July 19, 23:31 CET
I didn't read this so much as a political statement, but a moral one, with immediate ramifications for us non-super heroes and non-supervillans. I mean, think of how many people pursue their ambitions, hoping that success will bring them happiness and love, only to discover when they achieve their goals that it has cost them both.
Penny's death has made many of us search this otherwise delectably fluffy musical for deeper meaning (however much we may say that "things happen," the many comments in this thread suggest that somehow we can't help wanting to look "for a reason" anyway). I like the moral weight her death gives the piece.
Unfortunately, though, the pacing and structure of the third act don't quite work for me. I wish Joss & co. had had more time to work on it.
TawnyJayne | July 19, 23:31 CET
chance | July 19, 23:33 CET
okelay | July 19, 23:35 CET
embers | July 19, 23:37 CET
MattK | July 19, 23:41 CET
okelay | July 19, 23:42 CET
I've been thinking the same thing, embers.
menomegirl | July 19, 23:42 CET
Saje | July 19, 23:31 CET
I totally agree with you, Saje. My family and friends may not understand, but I'm glad you do. Dr. Horrible has earned the impact it's had on me, every bit of it. It wasn't a lie when I said it's one of the best works ever. And, yeah, I
demandwould like to have Dr. Horrible added to our Whedonesque site.I get the tragic flaw part, TawnyJayne, but what affects me the most is that for Acts 1 & 2 I was cheering for Billy to take action, become the supervillian Dr. Horrible. Now look what happened to him. I feel like I was that friend, cheering on my buddy to chug down beers, only for him to get alcohol poisoning and die. I'm a bad
horsefriend.I think that's something that the press and those at CC won't get. They'll see it in whole, with slight cheers and jeers, but seeing it, piece by piece, we've been able to touch on something that few others will get a chance to do.
korkster | July 19, 23:43 CET
I think the opinion that really struck a chord with me was Simon pointing out that no one had a real way to be spoiled and we could all experience Dr Horrible pretty much together and at the same time. That left me with a feeling of absolute delight for the Whedon family, soon to be family and extended family of cast and crew.
From the exhilaration of wanting and waiting to know what would happen next to experiencing Dr Horrible’s sing along blog by being able to, yes, sing along after a few viewings, and having a feeling at the end of Act I what might happen to Penny, but still feeling shocked when it did, I feel I’m emotionally exhausted now, in the best Whedon-y way possible.
One of my lasting favorite bits? The cut to Dr. H’s shoulder shimmy during the freeze ray explanation.
bloodflowers | July 19, 23:46 CET
Speaking of comics, I'm reminded of the 2-D'ness of Captain Hammers story and the 3-D'ness of Dr. Horrible's story, each told on 2D & 3D respectively. That's kind of neat.
korkster | July 19, 23:48 CET
And it's funny that we do this, because the tragedy laying in wait in his tragic flaw is hanging out there for all to see. All it would have taken to derail the entire chain of events was for Billy to stop fidgeting with his remote control and stick with the conversation Penny clearly wanted to be having with him over her clipboard in Act I.
But, no matter how many of us might have gone "d'oh, you idiot, go back and keep talking to her", we still were rooting for his Wonderflonium heist, somehow mysteriously blind to hating Captain Hammer for his "a man's gotta do..." attitude but giving Billy a pass for the same attitude.
For whatever reason, we thought he could be a supervillain and get the girl. Silly us.
[ edited by theonetruebix on 2008-07-19 23:51 ]
The One True b!X | July 19, 23:50 CET
I do love the shoulder boogie, and the hand-jive. Back when Dr. H was still innocent.
korkster | July 19, 23:52 CET
Very silly us.
korkster | July 19, 23:55 CET
I think what threw off the pacing (or helped to) was that nothing was actually Billy's blog until the final frames. Which made me sad.
Banter | July 19, 23:56 CET
okelay | July 20, 00:00 CET
MODS, I was wondering if this is the longest or most constantly commented thread you have ever had. I feel like breaking another record. Are we close? For some reason, I feel like the "Nothing but Red" may be beating us with 800, but I just wanted to know if you keep those sort of numbers around.
Share, please?
korkster | July 20, 00:03 CET
To become what your afraid of, or what you make fun of, may be truly traumatic for them. And they should be.
My mom was just saying this morning how obsessive I am. I told her I was living life to the fullest, and feeling every emotion with gusto. And that, if it weren't for my fandom-like tendencies, she wouldn't have Spike, Booth, or Dexter.
I mean, what's the point in living if it's only going to be half-assed? Refusing to submit to something wonderful and powerful, and then to learn and grow from it in a community as open and welcoming as ours? Sometimes I wonder if we're the ones who have it right and the rest of the world is truly missing out.
korkster | July 20, 00:09 CET
Have to say, despite Penny's fate, it's very consistent, and I love each and every bit of it. Shure, it has flaws (@DP: keep the horizons level when shooting, please) but then again, I've seen series lasting forever with major flaws in it.
Love the dialog, love the singing. And I bet Nathan could do a mean Elvis impression :D
Love Felicia's character Penny (duh) She's to me a mix of Tara's sweetness and Willow's quirkiness. And is she that tiny? I mean, I tower above NPH and Nathan....
I have one issue though, why break up and end a possible cutest couple ever in the 'Verse??
just look at that!
and this!
Oh I get it, to be recognized as horrible, you have to do the bad thing, however, Dr. Horrible didn't do that. See, he just placed a sticker on the STUN ray, it was not a Death ray. Captain Hammer just assumed it was one, and it blew up in his face while using it. Taking Penny away.
There better be a sequel, restoring the ill fate of our plagued Dr. Horrible. But that's unlikely, right Joss? There is no happy place?
And I love it. And I still fall for it. THANK YOU team, for making this possible, and thank you Whedonesque and it's members for making this a true event. I've missed this.
Oh and make the dvd available in the Netherlands!!! I want it!
[ edited by Krusher on 2008-07-20 00:16 ]
Krusher | July 20, 00:11 CET
Yes korkster, that's exactly it, nail-on-the-head. Yes, it was hard to watch Act III and in some way it was a shame that it wasn't as much fun, initially. But the fact that we got to live with these characters meant we truly got the full impact of what was happening. I, too, was cheering on Billy, being sure - even áfter Penny got killed - that everything would turn out for the best, because he was not evil and just a guy (with, granted, a tragic flaw) who deserved a happy end. What happened means that the rug got pulled out from us not only on screen, but also for agreeing with what Billy was doing (which - granted - was partly because it was a breezy, fun, slightly absurd story up till the last few minutes of Act II, and partly because he never actually did anything Evil in all three acts). It's very powerfull and something that's built into the concept and the way it was shown to us. The more time that passes and the more I think about it, the more I love it.
Still, however much I love it, it's not my favorite piece of Whedonia, because it wasn't the only piece I experienced this way. I still remember my shock at the events in Buffy S2 and the discussions in the fandom after the episodes aired and the numb feeling, sitting with a bunch of fans after the end-titles on Serenity rolled at our Dutch pre-screening (probably the most gutted and tired I've ever felt because of fiction). I've experienced those things only sparingly in fiction outside of active fandom, and that's because it's true: active fandom enhances the experience in intensity and the fictional works become closer to your heart because of that. It's truly a special thing.
And on a totally unrelated note: it's funny to see that for some of you guys, it's the second day on this thread, while for me, it's still the first. I saw Act III when I got up this morning and I'll be heading off to bed soon-ish :)
And finally: yikes, this is still growing. Here's hoping I'm not making redundant points that have been mentioned while I was typing :)
ETA: Bix was even more nail-on-the-heady (like: right smack down in the centre of the head) with his observation on the tragic-flaw issue. Had not quite seen it in that exact light yet. Thanks :)
[ edited by GVH on 2008-07-20 00:22 ]
GVH | July 20, 00:15 CET
You know, I was a bit afraid of parts of the HP fandom. mainly the shipper fights.But I still read the books. and loved them and I still enjoy H/Hr, but that doesn't mean I have to go join their ranks. Doctor Who is another story.
okelay | July 20, 00:15 CET
whedongeek | July 20, 00:20 CET
Don't get me started on that.. I seriously hated the show when Billy Piper made the mad decision to part her way from it. And Christopher Eccleston's. "afraid of beeing typecasted" sheesh. Like that's a bad thing.
Krusher | July 20, 00:23 CET
Ockelay: I was so tempted to write what my shipping preferences were for HP, but since Whedonesque discourages shipping fights within the fandom, I don't think bringing up a ship outside the fandom would please the mods too much. :)
ETA: There's something else interesting too -- the homeless shelter was still made, presumably. So 250 people's lives were helped as a result of Penny and Cpt. Hammer meeting. Doesn't feel like much of a silver lining though, does it? :(
[ edited by MattK on 2008-07-20 00:29 ]
MattK | July 20, 00:27 CET
Buffy, Angel, and even a bit of Firefly missed out on some larger community pieces, IMO, because the internet was still... young? Not as established? We've come a long way since dial-up and AOL.
I made that point to my friend, okelay, when she didn't get that I was upset. I simply told her Dr. H was her HP, then she got it. I love HP, but I wasn't part of that community, I didn't have a strong connection with the creator, I didn't experience it with everyone else as one large chunck, and what took thousand of pages to lay the punches (or even 1 700 page book), this only took 2 months to write, 6 days to shoot, 3 days to show, and 45 minutes of love.
korkster | July 20, 00:29 CET
I was about to reply that on the other side I'd seen Capt. Hammer as a fascist version of The Tick, but then saw you said this:
[Hmm, so the corporate tool and the fascist are fighting over pennies....???]
which is freaking brilliant.
The One True b!X | July 20, 00:36 CET
Speaking of the homeless shelter, I wonder if they named it after her or something.That'd be nice.
okelay | July 20, 00:38 CET
korkster | July 20, 00:40 CET
It was the first TV show I downloaded on a landline, in realmedia.. and then I went all fanatic, got meself a Buffy statue, shirts, and I now have a double set of the entire Buffyverse.. Pirating is a crime? To me it was a blessing way back then.
[ edited by Krusher on 2008-07-20 00:42 ]
Krusher | July 20, 00:41 CET
Loved the cameos and the inclusion of "grr argh."(THANK YOU) That and someone dying really made DH feel like a true Mutant Enemy production. :P
I think the first and second acts are better but Act 3 was fantastic and made me appreciate the film as a whole, better.
Thanks to everyone involved, Joss, Jed, Zach, Maurissa, Neil, Felicia and Nathan(Simon Helberg too!) you all did an amazing musical and I hope to see a future sequel.
Rhodey | July 20, 00:42 CET
Oh, hey. That was me who mentioned that, and as far as I can recall, I was the only one who said it, so I want to get on here to clarify just a touch. One, I'm not a regular here, so I didn't realize it was used as a blanket dismissal of dissenting opinion. My apologies. I hope my tone cleared up that I wasn't dismissing anyone else's opinion. I totally get people who were and still are disappointed. I was upset at first, too.
However, just because it may have been an overused concept in this community, I don't think it's a bad concept at all. In storytelling, it's important not to pander, to do what the story demands and make it heartwrenching if that's what it needs. So while I'm sorry to have touched on a hotbutton here, I would like to say (as far as I saw) it was just me and just out of ignorance and in no way meant to shut down dissenting opinion. Hell, I published an entire essay about how Wash's death was WRONG, and I stand by that, so I'm not a Jossophant. But I do think, in this case, that it was pitch perfect. Although I totally understand those who don't, because damn, my heart's still breaking.
So - my apologies! But no one else jumped on it or in any way even addressed it, as far as I can tell. It was just me, being the person who walks into the middle of a room and starts saying exactly the wrong thing to exactly the wrong people. No ill intent, whatsoever. Sorry!
Lani | July 20, 00:42 CET
korkster | July 20, 00:44 CET
which is freaking brilliant."
See, I thought it was obvious that Doctor Horrible represented the powerless members of the WGA (longing to have control over their fantasy worlds) who wanted to cut off the stinky fish heads of studios and networks but were beaten down by the corporate tools.... But of course that DOES still fit since they were fighting over pennies....
embers | July 20, 00:51 CET
That's been stuck in my head since last night.
Hammer's Hero song kind of reminded me of the self-esteem song from Smiletime.
It's interesting how Joss continues his theme of guns (in this case, rays) not working the way you want them to and having unexpected consequences. Never helpful. Well, occasionally in Firefly.
Billy's clothes are probably filthy anyway, since he's never going to do laundry ever again.
hacksaway | July 20, 00:55 CET
Age is never an excuse ;)
Ok, I'm a geek and proud of it, hehe.
Too bad you missed that time though, it was magical, met soo many people because of the 'Verse. Hopefully this show and Dollhouse will bring back those moments for everyone.
Krusher | July 20, 00:56 CET
The One True b!X | July 20, 00:56 CET
Volo | July 20, 00:57 CET
whedongeek | July 20, 01:03 CET
Also, assuming (with the hopeful part of my brain) that there is a possibilty of a continuation of this project, I think a lot would be lost without Felicia. She really gave a the whole thing heart and a lightness to the comedy. Fortunatly I have a solution (see my above hopes for Penny's amazing return)
That being said I love the way this ending shifts the story. It seems that it might be the tale of a man who is stopped on the brink of becoming a villian before he goes as far as taking a life. What the story turns out to be is the story of how he BECOMES a true villian. Brilliant. But, it's Joss so let me add a very eloquent 'Duh'.
[ edited by yo-saff-bridge on 2008-07-20 01:16 ]
platinum baby | July 20, 01:05 CET
In the end, Penny still believed in Captain Hammer as a hero, even if she didn't like him as a person. I guess that's good thing. Also,good point,I don't see Billy going back to the laundromat now.
okelay | July 20, 01:21 CET
chance | July 20, 01:23 CET
Krusher: yeah, those were magical days. In a way, freaking out because Buffy was on pause in The Netherlands and having to get by with transcipts of the episodes and freakishly low-quality real media downloads to keep up with the American part of the fandom was part of the fun. You had to really care about a show to wait for those things to download and then watch episodes poststamp-sized on you pc ;). I even had fandom friends in America taping the show, reformatting it to PAL standards and sending it over, at some point. Heh :).
Lani: I'm sure it's okay, don't feel bad! Also: I'm sure that comment wasn't directed at you personally, just in general :)
yo-saff-bridge: yeah, I can't imagine this without Felicia. It's what made the climax hit home even harder. After Act I, I developed one of those spontaneous-geek-television-crushes on Felicia (also because Penny - not Felicia - completely reminds me of the girl I had an on-again-off-again 'thing' with this year, which is now finally and definately 'off' ;)). So I could totally relate to Billy in 'On the Rise' (I have also so been that guy in the past), and then, well, Penny died. I still hold that the reaction to the death was what made it impressive, dramatically, but the death itself is what has had me semi-depressed all day ;)
ETA: tss, still not hit that '700' mark? We're a bunch of slackers ;)
[ edited by GVH on 2008-07-20 01:29 ]
GVH | July 20, 01:27 CET
zeitgeist | July 20, 01:39 CET
okelay | July 20, 01:41 CET
For those who can't imagine the series going on without Felicia, I'm really with you. She was the heart of it, and now that Dr. Horrible's soul has been obliterated, I'm not sure the funny/happy can come back again. And it's that sweet/sour contrast that was part of what made this so great, I think. Plus, Felicia was so damn good in this. I loved her in The Guild, too. Loved her as Vi. I look forward to seeing her in whatever else she does. And I hope whatever it is, there's some singing. She's amazing.
Man, I need this soundtrack.
Lani | July 20, 01:44 CET
okelay | July 20, 01:47 CET
Thanks Joss for giving us what we need, and not necessarily what we want. You created a powerful project that stays in our hearts!
zillah | July 20, 01:47 CET
At the first (and only) Flanvention- Ron Glass was talking about his youth growing up in Indiana... and Nathan basically stole the mic from him and started doing an Elvis impersonation and singing "In The Ghetto"
He was actually very good, and it was very funny (even if was being a mic hog)
MikeTMC | July 20, 01:54 CET
Click!
Marshmellowman!
Or, I might be old to remember that :P
MikeTMC is there a recording him doing that??
[ edited by Krusher on 2008-07-20 01:57 ]
Krusher | July 20, 01:54 CET
zeitgeist | July 20, 01:57 CET
But noone has mentioned the most depressing thing of all about Act 3, namely the complete and total lack of a second Bad Horse reprise. Let the wailing and gnashing of teeth commence!
damaged justice | July 20, 01:59 CET
okelay: I know! I've always told myself I disliked musicals, now I'm thinking I just saw the wrong ones and find myself wanting to see more :)
ETA:
Then again, we did see the cowboys again and heard the music, so I guess there's still a silver lining somewhere ;)
[ edited by GVH on 2008-07-20 02:03 ]
GVH | July 20, 02:00 CET
(I wonder perhaps if some of the initial criticisms about Act Three were the result of how ones senses warp with anticipation when one is watching something, especially the end of something, for the first time?)
I now wonder if I can handle watching it in full in a room of many people, because this first time through all three acts in a row, the very ending moments crashed down on me hard.
The One True b!X | July 20, 02:02 CET
As for Billy, I don't think he would have been able to kill CH, but a part of him certainly died when Penny died; he shut down to avoid the overwhelming pain of it, then just sort of numbly rode the tide to supervillainy. DH could walk through the party smiling, and gear up for induction into the ELoE, but the real Billy can't feel a thing.
As another musical line asks, "Where do we go from here?"
(Sequel, please?)
beck | July 20, 02:04 CET
SoddingNancyTribe | July 20, 02:04 CET
I, for one, am glad they didn't make a Nathan statue. If they had- then then the prop collector in me would want to try and find it to go along with my Jayne statue. The last thing I need to be doing is to start collecting more *life-sized* action figures. (grin)
MikeTMC | July 20, 02:04 CET
As another musical line asks, "Where do we go from here?"
Buffy, the Musical. Wich I'm about to watch now.
[ edited by Krusher on 2008-07-20 02:10 ]
Krusher | July 20, 02:05 CET
But then you could be that guy, at cons, that people point at going, "He's the life-sized action figure guy!"
(And then you could try to "procure" that life-sized Sean Maher that Joss says he has.)
The One True b!X | July 20, 02:08 CET
ETA: Krusher, dude, get some sleep already! :p I thought I was the only one with a messed-up day-night cyclus ;)
[ edited by GVH on 2008-07-20 02:12 ]
GVH | July 20, 02:10 CET
Krusher | July 20, 02:14 CET
The One True b!X | July 20, 02:15 CET
I've spent the last three years trying to track down the body to re-assemble The Hero of Canton (a la the Ariel Ambulance)... but it appears to have been destroyed.
During Mutant Enemy Strike Day- I briefly talked to Joss to see if he knew of it's whereabouts. (I'd heard a really bizarre rumor that it was in his garage)
Joss said he didn't have it- to which I replied: "Yeah, who's going to keep a headless body in their garage for 6 years."
Joss reply was classic: "Oh, I didn't say that I didn't have *any* headless bodies in my garage... just not THAT one!" (grin)
And stupid me walked that picket line for 2 hours NEVER KNOWING that Ben Edlund was right frikkin' there! (that's what I get for not knowing what he looked like)
MikeTMC | July 20, 02:19 CET
also: fair, enough Krusher, fair enough ;)
[ edited by GVH on 2008-07-20 02:21 ]
GVH | July 20, 02:19 CET
Gotta love him for that, lmao
Krusher | July 20, 02:21 CET
floofypooh | July 20, 02:23 CET
MAL: "It's my estimation that every man ever got a statue made of him was one kind of sommbitch or another. Ain't about you, Jayne. 'Bout what they need."
(b!x- I'm unfamiliar of this life-sized Sean Maher of which you speak...)
MikeTMC | July 20, 02:32 CET
The One True b!X | July 20, 02:37 CET
okelay | July 20, 02:40 CET
MikeTMC | July 20, 02:41 CET
Just goes to show what happens to you when you lose your practice.
great work joss/co. It's funniest thing you'll find on the net.
Hostile17's back | July 20, 02:52 CET
i've loved following this thread. Some comments have really hit home.
I've just got one question. Sometimes Immense grief can be the catalyst for destroying a person as Joss so clearly has demonstrated. However immense grief can also be redemptive, why doesn't joss ever show that side of things?
after finally working up the nerve to re-watch Act3 i can see how it really does fit that it ends this way, but still i think it would have fit just as well if it was the story of redemption.
Thanks for letting me join the not-quite-so-little whedonesque family.
April_fool82 | July 20, 03:21 CET
Quite honestly, it's come as a bit of a shock to me to experience this - I tend to have a bit more distance, especially with the amount of fictional pain I have regularly devoured for about 48 years in thousands of books, movies, plays and (but less so) TV shows.
Though BtvS "The Body" did and still does hit me like a ton of bricks, and I have felt bad at various other Whedon'verse deaths, I *looks around and hopes not to get hit with a car* never cried at Tara's death, sniffed a little at Wash's and Book's deaths, felt bad about Anya & Doyle, cried a bit when Fred died, didn't cry for Cordelia... as much as I've loved and been moved by these pieces, Doctor Horrible is acting on me in a whole new way.
Is it the way I experienced it - online, at the same time as eleventy-kabillion other people? Was it the release model? - only a few days in between? Is it the writing, and the music - both wonderful and moving - and the fact that I am particularly susceptible to music? Is it the wonderful acting and singing - both Neil and Felicia so emotive and so vulnerable? (Nathan being wonderful, of course, but not drawn, I think, as intimately or sympathetically...)
Is it the two significant deaths I've experienced personally in the past few years? Is it the tragedy of watching such a sympathetic character careening madly towards the destruction of his soul, and the helplessness of knowing it as inevitable?
Is it what it says about humanity, and how close it fits in with what I believe myself? It feels like the pain is like the pain you'd feel if you saw two butterflies crushed underheel - innocence and beauty, replaced by loss and emptiness.
I dunno. I really do not. I guess I know that good art will do that to you, but I really haven't experienced this before in quite this way. I just know I feel really sad - and I am totally - what's that great word? Oh, yes, gobsmacked by it. My partner still hasn't seen Acts II and III and he's away for the day and I got away with not spoiling him by being asleep when he left, but I'm sorta dreading his return, when he will say cheerily, "Wanna watch Act II and III with me now?" 'Cause it's gonna hurt him, too, and I don't like to see him hurt.
I just thought I'd say. I'm not really sure why. I'm not usually such a Drama Queen, despite my acting background.
QuoterGal | July 20, 03:23 CET
One other thing that occurs to me -- whatever happens to people we love in Whedonia, people we hate always get their comeuppance. In that, there's always the question of, was it worth it? I mean, without Penny's death, I think the great majority of viewers would have been all in favor of seeing Captain Hammer curled up in the fetal position, wailing on his therapist's rug. Do we want that enough for what it took to get him there? That's another question raised. It's raised in "Angel" and "Firefly"/"Serenity" -- I'd argue that it's not usually raised in "Buffy" so much, because those situations kept winding up that if they did nothing, the status quo would *still* not remain; instead, everybody would die. Still tragic losses, but not losses that could have been avoidable if choices had not been made.
And thanks to the board keepers/moderators for making sure this site went back up -- Yay Team Whedonesque!
Shapenew | July 20, 03:27 CET
also, Shapenew, I see you've posted that comment on both threads, heh :)
ETA: also, Quotergal, if you want one, here's a free online hug, no charge: {}. It's only the special art that can hit us this hard. I'll probably toss-and-turn a bit tonight as well.
[ edited by GVH on 2008-07-20 03:37 ]
GVH | July 20, 03:32 CET
Well,QuoterGal,It hurts, but the pain is worth it.
okelay | July 20, 03:37 CET
Oh and make it a 1000 post :D Night night people.
Krusher | July 20, 03:42 CET
theonetruebix | July 20, 02:02 CET
I watched it twice all the way through, and I wasn't able to laugh (well, as much). No, actually not really at all. It's probably because it's still too fresh in my mind, and I know what's happening, but boy, does Act 3 shift the whole story!
And, bix, I don't think I can "boo" with you. You might build up your immunity, but I don't think I can. It's just... so sad. :(
And, yeah, QG, I was numb and in complete shock when I first watched it, separate from the other 2 acts. But, I still totally cried. It was worse, and now I had no funny.
Shapenew, yep, I still see "Dark Horse" as "Bad Horse". I wonder if that's where the gang drew the ultimate evil person idea from...
korkster | July 20, 03:52 CET
I’d been imagining all sorts of silly endings—Penny being Bad Horse, Captain Hammer being inducted to the ELoE (because he gets what Dr. Horrible wants)—never thought I was watching a super-villain origins movie, or what the final motive would be.
I guess I forgot whose work I was watching…
(Someone ought to put out a Wanted poster on Joss, listing all our favorite characters he’s killed off.)
Horovits | July 20, 03:54 CET
I'm already just a tad embarrassed, but hell, that's what spilling feelings will do to you - and it all beats feeling numb, and that's a fact.
QuoterGal | July 20, 03:56 CET
I didn't recognize her at all! (and I have no idea what her character is... as a
RussianGerman camera villain would be spelled Leica)[ edited by MikeTMC on 2008-07-20 03:58 ]
MikeTMC | July 20, 03:57 CET
The comedy, the tragedy, the story ;(
I put it on my iPhone, now to spread the blog!
Wilhelm | July 20, 04:01 CET
Shapenew | July 20, 04:02 CET
Maybe it's supposed to be Leica but they k'd it for trademark reasons? Because I went to the same place, trying to figure out what she was.
The One True b!X | July 20, 04:05 CET
Ditto. I had to go take a nap. (Except I don't have to worry about how I'll react in a full room since I'll only be going to Comic Con vicariously through you all.)
Quoter Gal, maybe it was that with all the other characters that you listed, they had been loved and loved in return the characters around them. Penny never really had that chance, and neither did Billy. So, it's a double whammy. Sucks more.
MikeTMC, I have a double dose of jealously. But I feel bad that the body will never be re-united, too.
[ edited by NYPinTA on 2008-07-20 04:10 ]
[ edited by NYPinTA on 2008-07-20 04:12 ]
NYPinTA | July 20, 04:09 CET
"Hell hath no..."
The One True b!X | July 20, 04:12 CET
NYPinTA | July 20, 04:13 CET
crazygolfa | July 20, 04:23 CET
NYPinTA I haven't given up on the statue yet. I'll continue to look- and if all else fails, maybe Rob Hall/Almost Human kept the molds in their studio.
I wouldn't be opposed to commissioning a recast of the "middle" if it were possible.
MikeTMC | July 20, 04:26 CET
That is to say -- damn, I'm so happy to be a part of this community -- in a different kind of "room." It's wonderful to be able to discuss something we are all so passionate about -- but to be able to discuss it reasonably, intelligently, respectfully.
To quote z from above, There is no place like this one on the web. I heartily agree. And I do believe this is our longest thread (jeez, we were desperate to discuss something new from ME, weren't we?). Weren't the Serenity threads in the 500s? They seem so long ago.
Nighty night.
ETA: corrected drunken typo. That is, the typist is drunk, not the typo.
[ edited by palehorse on 2008-07-20 04:29 ]
palehorse | July 20, 04:27 CET
Is it always like this? I usually only do "computer things" during the week, but I couldn't miss Dr. H for anything. Just surprised.
Oh, BTW, it was mentioned and discussed that Penny wasn't phased when Billy said he wanted to be like Bad Horse. After reviewing, I'd have to disagree. She's shocked and bewildered, finds it odd, and the sighs and carries on.
korkster | July 20, 04:27 CET
She's shocked and bewildered, finds it odd, and the sighs and carries on.
Well, he covers so brilliantly with "Ghandi". ;P
[ edited by NYPinTA on 2008-07-20 04:29 ]
NYPinTA | July 20, 04:28 CET
Cheers to the many wonderful insights and comments from everyone here and bouncing (hopefully sans Wonderflonium) across the Interweb. Thanks for engaging my brain long enough for me to put my heart back in my chest.
IMO I think the impact of Act III is enhanced due to our ability to watch each previous Act multiple times and get filled with all the happy/fluffy musicality & comedy -- not to mention the giddiness of a new Whedonverse project. The hints of the darkness to come are easily overlooked (even when pointed out on these threads) for the misdirected hope of Dr. Horrible's redemption through his love for Penny. So when Act III hits, it's a sucker-punch. I purposely re-watched Acts 1 and 2 before watching Act 3 for the first time last night. It was just as big a thwack as if I had not done so, simply because I lived the previous Acts, and Act 3 was brand new and oh so different tonally.
I am looking forward to sitting with my peers at Comic-Con to watch it as one continuous performance, because even as the act of watching it as a global community is unique, the fans watching it together in one location for the first time will be as well -- much like the first Serenity fan screenings (or in my case, the first CSTS screenings). I dearly hope for costumes, cheering & boo-hissing to occur. :)
MizBehavin1 | July 20, 04:31 CET
buffyfanatic18 | July 20, 04:32 CET
I was worried about watching it like you did, but after about 2 hours of reading and commenting on the black last night, I sucked it up and watched it again... so glad I did. I relate it to bicycle riding for the first time. You fall, it's scary, but if you don't get back on, you'll miss out on the wonderful ride ahead.
MikeTMC | July 20, 04:26 CET
Why commission out the middle when you can have a real "life-size" action figure like Joss? Just sayin'
korkster | July 20, 04:33 CET
Even after re-watching as a whole, though, it's still too soon to laugh again. Yep, can't wait for CC.
Jed & Maurissa have requested that people be dressed up, so I for one won't be letting them down. I don't think I can acquire the exact lab coat Dr. H uses, but I may just take the one I have, along with goggles & a t-shirt. Hmmm... wonder where I could get some gloves.
korkster | July 20, 04:38 CET
zeitgeist | July 20, 04:42 CET
This underscores Penny's own flaw: Her hope is blind. She catches glimpses of the real world, but then goes back to dreamily believing everyone and everything can and will be "up".
The One True b!X | July 20, 04:43 CET
Is that supposed to be Mad Scientist Mozart or something?
The One True b!X | July 20, 04:44 CET
The hair reminds me of River's freak-out with Sheppard Book's hair. :) Good times...
korkster | July 20, 04:55 CET
NYPinTA | July 20, 04:55 CET
The One True b!X | July 20, 04:57 CET
NYPinTA | July 20, 05:02 CET
okelay | July 20, 05:10 CET
alittledarkcorner | July 20, 05:10 CET
okelay | July 20, 05:15 CET
impalergeneral | July 20, 05:22 CET
zeitgeist | July 20, 05:24 CET
jubal lives | July 20, 05:30 CET
NYPinTA | July 20, 05:33 CET
Ouchy ending was really painful. But, it kinda eased on the fourth viewing and now I love it. I would count the days until the DVD comes out, but not knowing the days would make it hard... *waits for announcement*
OT: Spike: After the Fall thread, anyone? *confused*
Mirage | July 20, 06:21 CET
SoddingNancyTribe | July 20, 06:30 CET
okelay, a protection lab coat, huh? Hmmm. Red Kapp(?) didn't have what I thought would be similar. Could you tell me what company you found for yours?
Dr. H Questions:
1) When Billy is fleeing the Laundromat, and he goes to the washer, he says...?... "I don't love these"? What exactly does he say? I can't quite catch it.
2) On Act 1, when all three are singing, Penny's vocals are drowned out by the guys, but the line after her "heart is beating like a drum", blah? blah? blah? "must be from shock"... what does she say there? Does anyone know?
Thanks, zeitgeist, for your vague report. I'll just take your word on it. :)
Mirage, as I mentioned before, it's crickets on the other threads at the moment. Who has time when they're trying to keep up with this bad boy?
korkster | July 20, 06:33 CET
Bix: I liked what you had to say about Penny's blind hope -- that she doesn't perceive the "filth and lies" but only "rapture". Maybe there's a way in between? And if Penny does represent the writer's strike in any way, perhaps blind optimism doesn't work any better than corporate tools or fascists...? Just like Joss to not give us any hard and fast answers!
whedongeek | July 20, 06:36 CET
I'd not been a fan of NPH--probably because I've not really watched him in anything before--but he did an amazing job. His facial expressions were fabulous and so on the money for his character.
bojojoti | July 20, 06:37 CET
"I don't want these" is what I hear.
The One True b!X | July 20, 06:38 CET
Hey, Purple Pimp, did you guys throw a party in your lair after shooting? Like in the show? Cuz that would have been amazing.
korkster | July 20, 06:39 CET
korkster | July 20, 06:40 CET
Love = Used 272 times
Evil = Used 106 times
Happy = Used 45 times
Brilliant = Used 43 times
Surprise = Used 43 times
Hate = Used 36 times
Amazing = Used 35 times
Disappoint = Used 25 times
Beautiful = Used 19 times
Predictable = Used 12 times
Depressing = Used 9 times
Didn’t expect = Used 9 times
Didn’t like = Used 8 times
Terrible = Used 5 times
Excellent = Used 3 times
Not happy = Used once
[ edited by Crypto on 2008-07-20 06:42 ]
[ edited by Crypto on 2008-07-20 06:43 ]
Crypto | July 20, 06:41 CET
NYPinTA | July 20, 06:46 CET
"So They Say"
"Dr. Horrible's Scary Song"
"Dr. Horrible's Resolution Song"
My Overall Top Songs:
"Freeze Ray"
"On the Rise"
"Brand New Day"
"So They Say"
"Dr. Horrible's Scary Song"
"Dr. Horrible's Resolution Song"
Hey, how come the Acts are still available? Shouldn't they be down now? I thought they go down at 12:01AM EST 7/20.
korkster | July 20, 06:47 CET
NYPinTA | July 20, 06:48 CET
"Bunch of scary alcoholic bums!"
One of my favorite lines from Captain Hammer.
Sorry, NYP. Just wanted to make sure I wasn't crazy. I've been waiting up to see when we'll get the reports of how they did (hopefully).
[ edited by korkster on 2008-07-20 06:52 ]
korkster | July 20, 06:51 CET
cabri | July 20, 06:51 CET
And, does anyone know why Dr. Horrible will only be available until the 29th? Is it to make sure we buy it sooner than later? Do artists have to "rent" a spot on iTunes?
korkster | July 20, 06:53 CET
Crypto | July 20, 06:55 CET
CH's "Everyone's a Hero" song, does he say "if you're not a freaking tard you will prevail"? Wow.
Oh. "Dr. Horrible's Scary Song" = "Slipping"
korkster | July 20, 06:55 CET
The One True b!X | July 20, 06:57 CET
NYPinTA | July 20, 06:57 CET
NYPinTA | July 20, 06:57 CET
korkster | July 20, 07:03 CET
So it continues and I'm still involved with the story and I'm into the last number and then comes the final edit, the final shot, the final word.
And it's perfect.
And I said: "Okay, Joss you did it. You pulled it off. It works. As a work of art it totally comes together."
But after Wash, after Book, after Renee (Buffy comics), after Kitty Pryde (X-Men - and i know she didn't die but Joss beat up on her real good); I can't believe this guy can still set me up so I don't see it coming.
But never again! From now on I will with every shot of Dollhouse, and Cabin in the Woods, and Goners, and every panel of Buffy; I will expect someone likeable to die.
No sequel for Dr. Horrible. The ending was a perfect for a tragedy.
But I really see Batman1016's point. This is now a cliche. And Joss should give us an upbeat ending at least once.
And there was a way for a happy ending. Cut to a shot of Penny noticing Dr. Horrible was hesitant to pull the trigger. Then what happens happens except Penny doesn't get her patented WhedonCo Pointed-Object-in-the-Gut. She sings about his inner goodness and he sings about how she brought it out in him and Joss would make that clever and funny because we all know he can do that. And bada-boom, bada-bing, there's your happy ending.
But never again will I be sucker-punched by you, Joss Whedon.
Never again.
batmarlowe | July 20, 07:03 CET
korkster | July 20, 07:06 CET
Wash was the chest, not the gut. Although, to be fair, Penny had one in the chest in addition to in the gut.
The One True b!X | July 20, 07:09 CET
And now, we have it in writing that you won't be sucker-punched. But, that's like slapping someone with your glove... the duel is on, and my money is on Joss. If he couldn't sucker-punch you, he wouldn't be doing his job and there wouldn't us who love him so much.
If you've only watched it once, I suggest watching again (at least twice). It gets better, in a way.
korkster | July 20, 07:11 CET
To make sure she was dead, I guess.
Do you suppose Billy pulled out the shards before carrying her to the bed-thing? Cuz they're not there anymore.
korkster | July 20, 07:12 CET
Elsewhere, some medicos were saying they ought not to have done that, because if he, or whoever, had left them in, there might have been a chance to save her. Oops!
The One True b!X | July 20, 07:19 CET
I figured I'd mention a few things that had occurred to me in that other stuff. I thought it interesting that whereas Dr. Horrible's first song, "Freeze Ray" seemed like it was going to head right into part of "I'd Like to Teach the World to Sing", his last song, as mentioned various times, is very "Sweeny Todd." It made a clear transition from twisted idealism to twisted revenge inspired cynicism.
Again, as pointed out earlier, "A Man's Got to Do", the song directly after "Freeze Ray" begins the downward spiral. I don't know about anyone else, but I have heard that sentiment plenty of times from men as an
excusereason to do selfish things. Although I agree with the comment about facists vs. capitalist fighting over pennies, it is also men fighting the age old battle for pride and power while the women try to get them to focus on more immediate real life concerns. The women get slammed in the end, and are a nameless footnote at best while the men go on to glory and usually realize that getting what they wanted did not give them what they wanted after all.As far as killing characters to create a transition in another character, as I said, I did not mind Penny dying in this. However, Joss has been using it a lot...like a whole lot and it is after all a cliche that has been around forever. I would love to see him mix it up a little more. I do love when Joss mixes the dark and light and it gets really complex. Killing off characters and going totally dark does not necessarily make art. My son and I were watching Rambo 2 tonight. (We're hitting the classics. ;-) ) Neither of us had seen it before. near the beginning, the woman says she wants a peaceful life. My son and I say together, "She's going to die." Later, in spite of the acting and dialog, she and Rambo have a touching scene where he is finally making a human connection and they decide to just leave and go to the USA together. My son says, "She is definitely going to die by the end." I say, "She's going to die a lot sooner than that; like any minute." Cue bullets and Rambo turning into a killing machine with darkness ensuing. The discussion on this thread and the earlier one about Renee came to mind.
newcj | July 20, 07:20 CET
NYPinTA | July 20, 07:21 CET
This is actually the point that I can't seem to grasp. They could never do anything Horrible-related again and this would stand perfectly well on its own, I think.
...it is also men fighting the age old battle for pride and power while the women try to get them to focus on more immediate real life concerns
Although in this case the woman herself seems so determined to be hopeful that she's blinded herself to the way the people around her really are. So she's not exactly pure here, either.
(ETA that yes, I originally managed to type "the way people around HERE really are". D'oh.)
[ edited by theonetruebix on 2008-07-20 07:28 ]
The One True b!X | July 20, 07:27 CET
I admit I WOULD have liked to see her turning it all around by standing up to both of them. But it's very consciously a tragedy-masked-as-comedy.
Ilana | July 20, 07:28 CET
newcj, I get that with Rambo and other movies, the predictableness of it, but, like mentioned several times over in this thread... even though Joss may seem to pull the same trick, we were all caught off guard. Some didn't even realize that she was still in the room when the explosion happened.
We all kind of had the feeling that there was a downward spiral, but it was such a fun ride that most forgot that the end stop was doom. I mean, I sure did. It was all fun and games until someone got killed. And, true, some may have known it was going to happen, that Penny was going to die, but it's the HOW that gets me. Honestly, who could predict that (without looking back)?
korkster | July 20, 07:29 CET
Absolutely. IMO that is something women are often prone to do...see what they want to see in the men in their lives and forgive them way more than they should.
newcj | July 20, 07:30 CET
*cough*
korkster | July 20, 07:31 CET
The sweet vegetarian liberal who refused to see the world as it was? ;)
Meanwhile, for whatever it's worth, I was sure, originally, that the voice singing "everything you ever" during the final song was, in fact, Penny's. And the idea made it seem all the more haunting to me. Felicia says, however, that it wasn't her.
[ edited by theonetruebix on 2008-07-20 07:32 ]
The One True b!X | July 20, 07:31 CET
I think it's a little unfair to pigeon-hold our characters. They didn't seem to be "just that". People aren't perfect, or the ELOE wouldn't be run by a horse.
korkster | July 20, 07:34 CET
korkster | July 20, 07:35 CET
"It's okay. Captain Hammer will save us."
I thought it was the groupies, bix. Didn't hear FD at all.
To be clear, I wasn't thinking it sounded like her, specifically. In my head, it was sort of a symbolic voice from beyond haunting through the song. The groupies, though, is a good thought.
[ edited by theonetruebix on 2008-07-20 07:37 ]
The One True b!X | July 20, 07:35 CET
Uh, could you change that to "some" women and not group us all in that category please. Thanks.
NYPinTA | July 20, 07:38 CET
"The sweet vegetarian liberal who refused to see the world as it was? ;)"
Yeah, exactly. Because the naivete is probably being criticized here as an impediment to real change.
Ilana | July 20, 07:41 CET
Edit: Ok, not *completely* blind. She might have a slight reality stigmatism.
[ edited by NYPinTA on 2008-07-20 07:44 ]
NYPinTA | July 20, 07:43 CET
streetartist | July 20, 07:43 CET
NYPinTA | July 20, 07:46 CET
It seems like he is having to go to greater and greater lengths to catch people off guard. This time he had to go as far as purposely misrepresenting the type of show it was, signaling the audience that this is fluff and silliness, even trying to emphasize the silliness in one of his statements/interviews, saying something like "maybe I should have put silliness first" [on the list.] He did everything he could to tell the audience that this was going to be fun and light from giving it a silly name with sing-a-long in the title to making the two main characters seem like buffoons. What will he have to do next time?
IMO that is something women are often prone to do...see what they want to see in the men in their lives and forgive them way more than they should.
Uh, could you change that to "some" women and not group us all in that category please. Thanks.
NYPinTA | July 20, 07:38 CET
Sorry, writing fast, but I will only change it to "many". I do not think most of us do it all the time, but I do see a huge number of us doing it some of the time. Some people have indicated that the fact that I have a tendency not to do it myself is what makes my relationships...uh...difficult. ;-)
newcj | July 20, 07:50 CET
I know the screening is like at 10PM-ish, but the panel? Help!
korkster | July 20, 07:53 CET
NYPinTA | July 20, 07:54 CET
"It's okay. Captain Hammer will save us."
As mentioned before in this thread, she was discovering the third layer of cheese that is Captain Hammer while retaining the notion that he does save people... just isn't "sweet" about it.
newcj:
Don't know, but I can't wait to find out.
[ edited by korkster on 2008-07-20 07:59 ]
korkster | July 20, 07:58 CET
1:30-2:30 Joss Whedon— Joss Whedon (Buffy the Vampire Slayer) and the writers and cast of his new short film, Dr. Horrible's Sing-Along Blog, will show never-before-seen clips while Joss also discusses Buffy Season Eight, the Fray crossover, and the upcoming Serenity comic focusing on Shepherd Book. Ballroom 20
10:45-12:00 Dr. Horrible's Sing-Along Blog— The story of a low-rent supervillain (Neil Patrick Harris as Dr. Horrible), the hero who keeps beating him up (Nathan Fillion as Captain Hammer), and the cute girl from the laundromat he's too shy to talk to (Felicia Day as Penny). This musical in three parts, created for the Internet and written by Joss Whedon, Jed Whedon, Zack Whedon, and Maurissa Tancharoen, premieres in its entirety on the big screen at Comic-Con. Room 6B
The One True b!X | July 20, 07:59 CET
streetartist | July 20, 07:59 CET
By looking at that list, 1 hours isn't enough time to talk about Dr. Horrible AND Season 8, Fray, & Shepherd Book. There just isn't enough time!
But, I guess it means we can sing at the showing. Why do they give so much time for it, I wonder? It'd be over by 11:30-ish if they started on time. Will the cast be there too?
korkster | July 20, 08:03 CET
korkster | July 20, 08:05 CET
okelay | July 20, 08:07 CET
I think I may have been wrong before. In this article, it shows Dr. Horrible working on a silver twisted gun.
It's not the freeze ray; I initially thought it to be the death ray under-part. But know I'm not so sure, especially since it brings it with him to the bank heist.
So, what is it?
korkster | July 20, 08:09 CET
The double meaning in the lines, "Here lies everything/The world I wanted at my feet..." Every time I hear them, (& like many of us, I've watched & rewatched ad infinitum), every time, something tightens in my chest and I can't breath for a moment.
QingTing | July 20, 08:09 CET
Re: the screening, I know that Felicia seems to have this down as something on her calendar, but I don't know about the rest (I'm presuming so, since it's the first public showing). I hadn't even noticed that the time on the screening session is 30 minutes longer than it will take to screen.
The One True b!X | July 20, 08:11 CET
QingTing | July 20, 08:11 CET
Were you going to make a point about her blindness? If not, then I will.
I don't think Penny was blind. She says she grew up "lost and lonely", and her "grief turned to pity for a city barely copin'". I think she's well aware of the status quo, as mentioned in Act 1 (she's all for it), but she's making a difference, one "guy who smells like pooh" at a time.
Captain Hammer may have been the one to open the homeless shelter, but it was Penny's petition that got the ball rolling. It brought "some" awareness to CH, who then presented it to the mayor.
To me, her "Captain Hammer will save us" line is a representation of the two men and their power. CH wants to have (& does) the power to save people. Dr. H wants to have the power to change. Neither of them accomplish this on the "Brand New Day".
I was going somewhere with this... but then got lost...
korkster | July 20, 08:16 CET
What will he have to do next time?
Don't know, but I can't wait to find out.
[ edited by korkster on 2008-07-20 07:59 ]
korkster | July 20, 07:58 CET
Good grief. I hope Joss never lets it get to the point where his audience is waiting to see how he will fool them into not expecting someone to die. He is just better than that. I would so much rather he put that creative energy into telling the stories in new ways that will achieve the emotional impact he wants.
Off to bed for me.
[ edited by newcj on 2008-07-20 08:18 ]
newcj | July 20, 08:17 CET
Hm. Then I was wrong. I think there's actually a screen capture of the stun/death ray and the silver twisty gun side-by-side, which would prove my wrongness.
korkster | July 20, 08:19 CET
QingTing | July 20, 08:19 CET
To get into her pants. Which is why he's sitting around before the opening smiling about how now he's going to get to do the weird stuff.
The One True b!X | July 20, 08:19 CET
1. This one, quite comfortably.
2. Joss Confirms Serenity Screenings, a healthy 535 comments in a June 9, 2005 thread.
3. The Act II discussion, at 478 comments.
4. Let's Watch A Girl Get Beaten to Death, Joss's thoughts on Dua Khalil, which drew 455 comments.
5. The story revealing Dollhouse last November, at 447 comments.
6. Satin Tights No Longer, wherein Joss told us the Wonder Woman news. 424 comments.
7. Who Got Snubbed? A shout-outathon - a nice change of pace on the 2006 Oscars. 415 comments.
8. The Act I discussion thread, with 411 comments.
9. News speculating whether Flanvention II to be cancelled!?, back in November 2006, drawing 365 comments.
10. The discussion regarding missing CSTS funds, with 325 comments.
SoddingNancyTribe | July 20, 08:21 CET
[ edited by Rhodey on 2008-07-20 08:26 ]
Rhodey | July 20, 08:24 CET
I don't keep tally marks on "Joss' same trick in the hat". I don't think it's objective to try to boil down his art into how he executes a tragic death. I ride the roller coaster for fun, and, for me, it's different each and every time.
I come here to Whedonesque to slice and dice (like the rest of you), but when I do, I look for other outlooks that I may have missed, which is always quite a few. And to keep tabs on what's going on, of course.
And, yeah, Joss is a roller coaster. There's twists and turns, ups and downs, but a roller coaster is a roller coaster (for the boiled point of view). But, to me, I enjoy those twists and turns, and will keep riding his rides at the theme park, because its fun and educational (edutainment).
So I apologize for causing you grief, and I'm sorry you couldn't enjoy Dr. Horrible as much as I did. But your outlook makes the piece special, and I chose to allow Dr. Horrible to affect me, instead of seeing if he's going to chose a different "hat trick" to achieve an emotional impact that you want.
korkster | July 20, 08:27 CET
Really going to bed now.
newcj | July 20, 08:28 CET
QingTing | July 20, 08:28 CET
First, try going to the menu marked "Store" and select "Check for Purchases..." and see if it does anything.
Second, make sure it didn't automatically download Act III at some point when you had iTunes running but weren't looking?
The One True b!X | July 20, 08:29 CET
korkster | July 20, 08:30 CET
Rhodey | July 20, 08:32 CET
[ edited by QingTing on 2008-07-20 08:35 ]
QingTing | July 20, 08:34 CET
theonetruebix | July 20, 08:19 CET
Get to do the weird stuff if he sleeps with her again, which he's never done with another girl. Why even classify her as his girlfriend? He could simply just sleep with her (#1), do the dedication, and move on. Why think about hanging around?
Maybe I just don't get why you refuse to acknowledge that CH is acting out of his norm, and it's because of Penny. Am I missing something here?
korkster | July 20, 08:34 CET
phlebotenum | July 20, 08:37 CET
Rhodey | July 20, 08:40 CET
I didn't think this--does he even know Dr. Horrible is there? He's just an immature imbecile who thinks that the fact that he's considering more than one night with Penny makes her his girlfriend. He's enjoying this new-found Good Samaritan aspect of his image.
jcs | July 20, 08:46 CET
This makes 60 to 11, Saje. Personal record.
korkster | July 20, 08:51 CET
Please quote me correctly. It was never the emotional impact I want, it was the emotional impact he wants, as in Joss. Big difference. I try to not have any specific expectations when I experience art.
You didn't cause me grief, the image of Joss approaching a project that way did cause me a moment of distress though. Whatever you may think, I also take the roller coaster ride. I try not to look ahead, I just go with it and then think about it later, which is what I did. It is also why I have not posted very much on earlier threads. I was waiting to see what happened in the story. Even so, I always expected more than fluff from this project because it is Joss. As I have said, Penny dying was not a story problem for me, and did not affect the enjoyment of this project. My enjoyment was affected by something totally different, as specified in my earlier posts. I'm just concerned about the pattern I have been seeing develop with the use of the same device used in similar ways over many projects and was expressing that.
newcj | July 20, 08:55 CET
(But please don't kill Summer's character. Or her lover.)
ETA: Er, her character's lover, I mean.
[ edited by jcs on 2008-07-20 08:58 ]
jcs | July 20, 08:57 CET
He probably doesn't know Dr Horrible is there, but given all the press that was there, it would no doubt surface that Captain Hammer has a girlfriend. In Act II, Captain Hammer says to Dr Horrible "I'm gonna give Penny the night of her life, just because you want her. And I get what you want". So to me it makes sense that's he's doing it just to get to Dr Horrible.
Either that or he's hoping that by Penny being his girlfriend he'll get to do the extra weird stuff =P
phlebotenum | July 20, 09:01 CET
The grief I referred to was the reaction I provoked from you:
newcj: What will he have to do next time?
korkster: Don't know, but I can't wait to find out.
Good grief. I hope Joss never lets it get to the point where his audience is waiting to see how he will fool them into not expecting someone to die.
*my emphasis*
We'll just agree to disagree on the device. I understand your concern, but IMO he hasn't let us down yet.
korkster | July 20, 09:04 CET
phlebotenum | July 20, 09:01 CET
I think it's this, and not the other thing (rubbing it in Dr. H's face). I mean, sure, if he got the chance, he probably would. However, I'm pretty sure he's unaware of the things around CH that don't directly include him. So, either knowing Dr. H was there, or that the press would deliver the "message", is out of his thought range, IMO.
And, initially, he sleeps with Penny to rub in Dr. H's face. As my mom put it, he's already "soiled the girl", why would CH care about her afterwards (or Dr. H for that matter, in my mom's mind).
The weird stuff= new experiences to had with Penny, because he was affected by her. Totally non-Dr. H centered.
korkster | July 20, 09:09 CET
korkster | July 20, 09:16 CET
I dunno, I think it's a continuing acknowledgement that guns are just tools and it's the user that determines how well they work. Warren fires blindly and doesn't kill his target but Jayne (for all his faults) can shoot someone in the neck at 500 yards with a bent scope. Mal and Zoe are similarly proficient. And if you can call a rocket launcher a gun, so's Buffy (I always assumed with Buffy that the non-use of guns was partly a philosophical thing and partly just that it was the elephant in the room - if you wanted to, in today's day and age it'd be trivially easy to kill Slayers left right and centre with a gun and Joss et al realised this kinda pulled the ground from under their world's feet). The "electric gun" given to Buffy by the Initiative malfunctions because it's been altered to do so, again saying guns can easily be co-opted since they're just objects (they don't mean what you think ;).
With Horrible his Freeze-ray (eventually ;) gives him time to kill Captain Hammer BUT it doesn't give him enough time, not because the ray's deficient but because Billy is (at being a murderer). And Hammer doesn't listen to warnings (probably partly because, Superman style, he's never had to before, never felt actual pain) and so the
StunDeath ray backfires. In each case the user is at fault, not the gun itself.ETA: Er, her character's lover, I mean.
So it's OK if he kills her actual lover ? I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that that's frowned upon, even in California ;-).
This makes 60 to 11, Saje. Personal record.
Call Guinness ;).
(can't believe you're actually keeping count ;)
Saje | July 20, 09:44 CET
Anonymous1 | July 20, 10:06 CET
...and now I find myself sitting in the sulky of sin.
worldwithoutshrimp | July 20, 10:17 CET
Something whiny and self-pitying. (Actually, I was wondering that myself--let me know if you find out.)
even in California ;-)
Good thing you remembered that smiley, buster. :)
But I'm sure Joss fulfills all his murderous urges with his fiction.
OK. Enough of this pretending to work. I'm going to sleep.
jcs | July 20, 10:31 CET
Let Down | July 20, 10:40 CET
He does write an awful lot doesn't he ;).
Does anybody know what Captain Hammer says on the couch?
Very hard to make out but it sounds something like:
can't make out first line ("I mean it" ETA: "I feel it", "i'm grieving" ??)
"... in my [or maybe "the"] heart" ETA: Nope, pretty sure it's "my"
"... it went in her and she died"
I.e. Hammer might actually be sad about Penny. So maybe it's not the transformative power of love but, as someone mentions upthread, of pain and grief ? Maybe Hammer's story is, pain can be redemptive, it connects us with our own humanity ? Or "I want my pain, I need my pain" as Kirk might say. Makes us who we are and all that (at least as much as what and who we love IMO).
[ edited by Saje on 2008-07-20 11:33 ]
Saje | July 20, 11:16 CET
This is from way up thread, but Kris, I quoted Wilde because it's particularly relevant to *me*. My friend recorded an album with the same title and it changed the course of *my* life. So, 'yay', I'm not particularly loving the tone of your comment right now, but... oh, whatever.
On another note... give it up for Media Temple, our new host for giving our site wings.
Caroline | July 20, 12:20 CET
(and as usual, good work to you Caroline and others for getting everything moved over as quickly as humanly possible. Hats off to you ;)
Saje | July 20, 12:45 CET
Nebula1400 | July 20, 13:50 CET
MizBehavin1 | July 20, 13:59 CET
Okay, this is my favorite might-be-read-as-a-sexual-thing quote of the day (sorry korkster :p)
Saje, that's pretty much what I hear in that couch scene as well. I think it also signifies that he was truly starting to change already, because of Penny, like I mentioned somewhere upthread ;). His Act III song - which is an impromptu speech, without any cards, big deal for an idiot like him ;) - already hinted at that he was finally getting what it meant to do good or what kind of problems 'the little people' faced. Yes, he was not very subtle about it and still highly unlikeable, but he was certainly changing already.
That's what makes this powerfull: Penny's death reaffirms both of these characters in their actual roles. Their bottom layer is the same as their top-layer, despite everything in between. Captain Hammer is the hero, who now actually feels and will, presumable, after therapy, be the better hero for it. And Dr. Horrible is the actual villain, now. But neither of them are very happy about it (understatement).
Also: *gives it up for Media Temple*. And of course, for all our lovely mods and tech-staff :)
And finally: 120-or-so posts since while I was sleeping. This thread truly is insane. (And thanks for the list, btw, SNT. T'was fun! :))
GVH | July 20, 14:02 CET
Okay, stopping rant now and back to enjoying. Love Felicia.
beans | July 20, 14:14 CET
But now that Dr. Horrible’s emotional impact has sunk in, it’s time for analysis, isn’t it? So, I’ll give it a try: „The Ethics of Dr. Horrbile’s Sing-Along Blog“! (please excuse any bad English. I'm not a native speaker.)
First of all, Dr Horrbile is obviously a story about male sexual adolescence. Secondly, it is about politics and ideology of social change. And thirdly, it’s about some surprising connections between the two.
I think the main trajectory of the story is about Billy directing his energy away from Penny and towards Captain Hammer. His naive romanticism turns into a (in a way even more naive) relation of competition with Hammer. That is Billy’s big failure: Pennys stops being his object of affection (something that could have led to a genuine human connection down the road); instead, she becomes his token of victory over Captain Hammer - which makes her, metaphorically and quite literary, dead to him. This also becomes clear in the song „Perfect Story“ when it is made clear that Billy doesn’t visit the laundromat any more, which is quite literally the home of his and Penny’s relationship.
To me, Dr. Horrible seems to be very much about Billy becoming more like Captain Hammer (notice that for Billy, Dr. Horrible is an alter ego, while Captain Hammer seems to be no one besides Captain Hammer. When Billy truly becomes Dr. Horrible in the end, he becomes more like Hammer in this regard as well). For Hammer, Penny is nothing more than a token the whole time – his token of victory over Dr. Horrbile. In the same way, the homeless people are tokens to him, as it becomes clear in his hero-song, which is quite obviously about they make him look good: „folks, it’s fine to know your place.“ Hammer basically propagates and ideology of complacency here, telling people that it is okay to beg, but that you also have your place in society and should not demand more. To me, Hammer’s song actually feels deeply cynical. However, it might be that Hammer doesn’t know about this cynicism: his ego-mania has a certain innocence to it ...
Hammer’s makes Penny’s campaigning look a tad questionable, because in the larger political picture it becomes assimilated to his ideology of complacency. But what is the alternative? Dr. Horrbile’s revolutionary program remains abstract. When Billy preaches to Penny about symptoms and rotting fish, in the end, he still doesn’t have anything better to offer than signing her petition.
So not only does Penny become the token of victory in the fight between Horrible and Hammer, her social work also becomes a token in the ideological struggle between the two. As we might expect, none of the three is entirely right, and maybe there is no „right“ position on the whole thing. But at its heart, Dr. Horrible’s is maybe less about the question of what is right in a political sense and more about the question what the struggle about what’s right is doing with the individuals fighting and how this struggle is caught up in masculinist fantasies of power. It is quite significant how many phallic symbols appear in Dr Horrible’s. Captain Hammer makes the symbolic dimension of his name quite explicit, and Dr Horrible’s Freeze Gun, as well as his Death Ray, are, of course, also highly phallic. Let’s take a closer look at the Freeze Gun: In the beginning, it is directed at Penny, to give Billy the time to find the right words and thereby allow him to take control of the situation. If this actually is a masculinist fantasy of control, we can say that it is a quite harmless, even benevolent one. As I mentioned above, Penny being the object of Billy’s romantic affection could be seen as the first step in a real human relationship between the two.
In the third act, however, the Freeze Gun is used against Captain Hammer, thereby giving the principle of two men fighting over a women precedence over that of genuine human affection. That’s when we realise that the power fantasy of the Freeze Gun might not be the way after all. To me, it seemed quite clear that Billy would have won Penny over anyway if he just had kept coming to the laundromat with frozen yoghurt instead of wasting his time making plans to outgun Hammer and rule the world ... this is, of course, the fundamental tragedy of Dr. Horrible.
So, what is the whole thing about for me? It’s about treating human individuals as being worthy of affection in themselves and not as tokens of one thing or the other. It is also about the fact that social or political campaigning for a good cause might be fine, but that it doesn’t entitle you to someone else’s affection: Hammer wins Penny over with his great deeds, but the relationship feels shallow. In the same way, it would have felt shallow if Dr. Horrible actually managed to win Penny over by some revolutionary program. The only real human relation here is the one between Billy and Penny in the laundromat.
All in all, I think Dr Horrible’s makes complex and deeply ethical statement. I guess I love it after all.
Jakob Schmidt | July 20, 14:14 CET
AuntArlene | July 20, 14:29 CET
GVH | July 20, 14:38 CET
C. A. Bridges | July 20, 14:49 CET
Nebula1400 | July 20, 14:55 CET
Yes oh yes. That is what hits so hard.
As for what Captain Hammer is saying on the couch - I thought he was still whinging about the pain - saying something about being hit in the groin. I guess the word could be grieving...
And one thing struck me that I haven't seen commented on, what do Penny and Billy do that they have to do laundry twice a week? Ok, as Dr Horrible, maybe he regularly has to wash his clothes after his experiments go wrong, but Penny?
Lioness | July 20, 15:00 CET
First: In terms of being a true musical, this really feels much more organic than "Once more with a Feeling". Most of the plot is actually narrated within the songs or visually. Even though the dialogue is fun and witty, the story doesn't depend on it at all. It's quite a feat of storytelling.
Second: Of course everyone in this is great, but after Caleb, Mal Reynolds and now Captain Hammer, I believe that Nathan Fillion can really play everything. He's just as brilliant and underrated as Ron Perlman (even though in a totally different way).
Jakob Schmidt | July 20, 15:07 CET
GVH | July 20, 15:14 CET
On another note... give it up for Media Temple, our new host for giving our site wings.
Caroline | July 20, 12:20 CET
Yea, Media Temple! Yea mods!
And one thing struck me that I haven't seen commented on, what do Penny and Billy do that they have to do laundry twice a week? Ok, as Dr Horrible, maybe he regularly has to wash his clothes after his experiments go wrong, but Penny?
Lioness | July 20, 15:00 CET
Hee hee. Maybe she does laundry for the homeless...or a little old housebound person or doesn't have many clothes or just is hoping to meet people or...
I didn't quote you, newcj, that's why there's not quotation marks. I just don't know how we can gauge what Joss wants.
korkster, you did not directly quote me, but you used my phasing with a one word change that totally changed the meaning of what I was saying. I said (emphasis added):
I would so much rather he put that creative energy into telling the stories in new ways that will achieve the emotional impact he wants.
You said (emphasis added):
instead of seeing if he's going to chose a different "hat trick" to achieve an emotional impact that you want.
Not cool.
As far as gauging what Joss wants, that was not something that I even alluded to and has nothing to do with my point.
We'll just agree to disagree on the device. I understand your concern, but IMO he hasn't let us down yet.
korkster | July 20, 09:04 CET
Actually, some people have felt let down at various times, otherwise it would not be a subject that is mentioned so much. As far as agreeing to disagree though, always fine with me.
newcj | July 20, 15:14 CET
For a musical its very very light on dancing. The only dancing at all is Billy and Penny in the laundromat in his fantasy... I suppose its an internet musical and not broadway but I would have liked to see some nice dance numbers! (They got the mustard out!)
aus-mitch | July 20, 16:10 CET
Simon | July 20, 16:17 CET
Nebula1400 | July 20, 16:17 CET
aus-mitch, I think I may actually prefer it without dancing. I liked it here, in Billy's daydream, used sparingly, but it takes me out of the story, most of the time. Then again, I used to say the same thing about the singing in musicals, so maybe I'm wrong there too :)
C. A. Bridges: while I too think this thread won't die down just yet, it does feel like it's slowing to a halt. It's certainly been less busy for the past hour-or-so than before that.
and on an unrelated note, I've finally finished my article + review of Dr. Horrible for the Dutch website I write for. Yay me ;) Now I just have to wait 'till it turns up
GVH | July 20, 16:34 CET
UBERkudos to the mods! All hail! :-D
Oh, and a hearty *pffft* to the notion that Captain Hammer is mourning ANYTHING but his previous lack of physical pain and pseudo-superheroics. I believe that, to paraphrase, "a man's gotta hear what a man's gotta hear" if you're hearing Hammer say diddly about Penny in his therapy session. Puh-lease!
OzLady | July 20, 16:40 CET
GVH | July 20, 16:42 CET
Might have to wait until the DVD - if it comes with subtitles that'll settle it one way or another.
(or some kind soul could ask Joss at Comic-con)
Saje | July 20, 16:52 CET
Simon | July 20, 16:17 CET
Absolutely. John Barrowman would be wonderful for it.
Yeah, I think Barrowman could do a good Captain Hammer as well, Simon, although I've never heard him sing (which - I guess - shame on me?).
Easy enough to fix. Clips of him singing are all over youtube. For instance:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8knQNzKj5U
As far as dancing, although musicals don't have to have dancing, and I would not be inclined to change what has already been done, I could totally see opportunities for dances if it were to be expanded for Broadway...and I'm all for expanding it for whatever reason. ;-)
[ edited by newcj on 2008-07-20 17:10 ]
newcj | July 20, 17:07 CET
Of course, I hate the guy, so maybe it's a case of "a woman's gotta hear what a woman's gotta hear." :)
And NF is brilliant--don't know how he keeps that supercilious Hammer face on all the time, when he usually looks so nice.
jcs | July 20, 17:14 CET
Saje, yeah I was thinking the same thing. But then again: if it didn't fit his character, might Joss & co not have asked him to do it again? I mean: it's not so indistinct as to not be hear-able at all. I heard the bit referring to Penny at first listen and drew my conclusions based on that.
And while I, too, think the guy is a tool and completely hated him in Act II and for parts of Act III (the implication that he'd get to do dirtier things with Penny made me want to step into my screen and hook him), jcs, I also think he's redeemable. There's a lot of (cheesy) guys with big ego's and a lack of consideration for other people's feelings out there in the world. I tend to completely dislike them in real life, but that doesn't mean they're incapable of feeling actual emotions and grieving a loss. But yes: it is a grey area and not overtly clear which interpretation is valid, I agree. I just think I saw some growth in Act III. Not enough to make me like the guy, but growth nontheless.
GVH | July 20, 17:23 CET
And it definitely starts rounding him out so maybe "pain completes us" is the idea ? Part of the joke of it for me was that the super-villain was the well-rounded, real character and the hero was the one that was very one dimensional, seemingly with no inner life and the end of the last act kind of turned that on its head to some extent.
(though of course, just the idea of "the message" could be inappropriate for this story and indicative of people's need to always see some sort of order when maybe there's just empty desolation and death. Can you tell tomorrow's Monday ? ;)
Saje | July 20, 17:38 CET
Not so much.
I cant believe my heart was broken from a 45 minute web musical.
Amazing.
I WANT MORE!!!!!
angeliclestat | July 20, 17:58 CET
You just had to go depress us, didn't you, Saje?
Lioness | July 20, 18:08 CET
I can't decide between 'Brand New Day', 'laundry day', 'On the rise' (or 'Everything you wanted' or 'So They Say' or 'A Mans Gotta Do'....Ok, I love them all).
Leaf | July 20, 18:27 CET
Well, y'know me Lioness, "share the wealth" could be my middle name. But it's Allan ;).
Saje | July 20, 18:33 CET
Saje: "... (though of course, just the idea of 'the message' could be inappropriate for this story and indicative of people's need to always see some sort of order when maybe there's just empty desolation and death."
You know, I think maybe that was it: there was almost no indication of hope at the end of this - no uplift - just pain and destruction and waste.
While this was not, of course, a new experience for me in fiction or in life, it really got in this time.
QuoterGal | July 20, 18:46 CET
Maybe Captain Hammer on the couch says
"....."
"it hit my heart"
"and it hurts to die"
[ edited by Anonymous1 on 2008-07-20 19:20 ]
Anonymous1 | July 20, 19:16 CET
Not that it means it won't happen (or have already happened and I missed it because gorram work/RL won't let me anywhere near my LJ).
*pauses* Excuse me *googles ff* heh... oh *eyes go wide*
Oh. Well. Never mind. *shuffles out*
ETA Anonymous1, I think he said something like "here... in my eye" between his heroic weeping about how it hurts.
[ edited by Mirage on 2008-07-20 19:21 ]
Mirage | July 20, 19:17 CET
Simon | July 20, 19:20 CET
And, excuse me, for fiction might've rotted my brain not much but enough to the extent that my gray cells chose to ignore the "' horse" and merely saw Giles. That was one second of my life that truly defined Horrible!
Mirage | July 20, 19:25 CET
The One True b!X | July 20, 19:28 CET
Billy's obvious despair in the last two words of the production leave hope for his redemption. As does the Captain's emotional breakdown (on the couch, not at the shelter), because to have an emotional breakdown at least implies real emotion, and his willingness to seek therapy tells us that he's realized there are some foes he cannot conquer on his own, even if they're only his own demons...
Anyhow. My tuppence.
[ edited by QingTing on 2008-07-20 20:18 ]
QingTing | July 20, 20:17 CET
You just had to go depress us, didn't you, Saje?
But some of us are on holidays tomorrow (and since I went into the office yesterday, I'm not allowed to go in tomorrow morning for the committee meeting!)
cabridges, I've had this browser window open for two days now. I believe it was at 400+ comments when I opened it as an addition to my regularly-opened Whedonesque window. ;)
Yay to Media Temple and the mods and techs here for making the change so quickly. (Unfortunately, I can't seem to update on Twitter at the moment - messages are just evaporating!)
samatwitch | July 20, 20:34 CET
By the way, I'm not saying it "should" be like that - just that it isn't.
(And I hafta add my thanks for the way WHEDONesque is operating like a well-oiled blog - and smooth like buttah. Mercis.)
QuoterGal | July 20, 20:44 CET
God bless those who brought us Dr.H. because albeit with his arm around his back, my brother is somewhat in my camp. Now if only he will finish watching Firefly! Or at least join me in one of my legendary camp-marathon Buffy/Angel timeline viewings. ;)
Mirage | July 20, 21:05 CET
re:laundry. well,maybe they haven't got many clothes? If I do laundry once a week I end up using the kind of clothes one only uses when there's nothing else to wear
I did notice that Captain Hammer doesn't have an alter ego. Lois started dating clark Kent, not superman. Penny liked Billy, she didn't know about Dr Horrible, but she dates CH.
He is with the psychiatrist as CH, which leads me to wonder if he even has an alter ego.
Billy becomes DH at the end, but there's still a piece of him, as we see in his blog.
I second the idea of Barrowman as Hammer. he can play cheesy well. And I can see David Tennant as Horrible,BTW.Mostly cause I'd like to see him in Mad scientist garb.and he and NPH are the two actors I know who can do a billion different expressions
about what Hammer is saying, all I can hear is whining. He's never had any confrontation before, he rose to power too easily and doesn't know how to handle it. like jcs said, a spoiled brat who had his toy taken away. I don't believe he had any real feelings for Penny.Maybe, with time, he could've, but there was no time.
Oh,Mirage,don't be naive. there was a fic comm on lj before Act I was even up. I know I'm already planning a fic or two.
I must add my name to the I-ve-had-this-thread-opened-for-over-a-day and I am incredibly thankful to all the hard-working mods for that.
BTW, why is this thread classified as 'gonads and strife'? I've seen that in some threads before,bu I've no clue what it means
[ edited by okelay on 2008-07-20 21:24 ]
okelay | July 20, 21:23 CET
Do I think Joss is perfect? No. But I thought we all came here because we honor his work. And this 45-minute project was able to affect people the world over on a profound level and managed to surprise even veteran Whedon-show watchers like me, and Simon, and SNT, and QG, and many others. It is a huge achievement. You may wonder why I'm saying this now. I guess I'm just full up. I was a contestant in the What Buffy Means To Me contest last year - his work, even as an older adult, had a profound effect on me; how he looks at the world, human trials, tribulations and emotions.
I've decided that from now on, I'm just going to think the reverse of this famous dialogue from Julius Caesar when I see those blanket statements about him, and scroll, scroll, scroll past as best I can:
I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him.
[ edited by Tonya J on 2008-07-20 21:28 ]
Tonya J | July 20, 21:27 CET
Oh, there's some little flickers, QingTing, for sure... but it's not exactly "let's keep fighting the good fight" or "love keeps her in the air" either.
Yep QuoterGal, and what flickers there are are possibly only implied by we the viewers I think. Think of it this way QingTing, Horrible's despair is a sign of hope but why ? Because we assume despair inspires people to change yes ? But what if a) they don't have the tools to change and b) they don't feel they deserve to change ? What if they're absolutely convinced that they should lie in this filthy, soiled bed they've made forever ? See, it's not true that when you hit rock bottom the only way is up, that's just a story we tell ourselves - sometimes you stay on the bottom.
Re: Hammer, he is whining but I don't think he's only whining about himself and that alone is a sea change. But also (and I can't believe i'm defending the king of schmuck ;) try to imagine what it would be like to suffer pain for the first time ever - I think it'd rock you to your very core. It might, dare we hope, be a bit of a wake-up call.
But some of us are on holidays tomorrow ...
'K, that's not helping with the post weekend blues ;).
ETA: Actually, that should be "inferred", ah well ;).
[ edited by Saje on 2008-07-20 22:48 ]
Saje | July 20, 22:15 CET
Hmm...I seem to recall Ted Danson/Mary Steenburgen having a connection to someone in the Whedonverse. I want to say Alexis? So maybe?
Who do you think did the temp vocals for Captain Hammer? Seems that Maurissa did Penny's and Jed did Dr. Horrible's. So Joss or Zack? I wonder if those will be on the soundtrack as well.
hacksaway | July 20, 22:25 CET
MattK | July 20, 23:06 CET
I don't think anything has made me feel so moved in a long time. A day later, and I still can't get it out of my head. I think this will be with me for a very long time.
Y'know, I thought we were in for a light-hearted romp, with a tweaking of super heroes being the most serious aspect of the whole thing. I'm glad I was wrong. Doctor Horrible has gone beyond anything I had hoped for.
Thank you, Team Horrible.
Dizzy | July 20, 23:08 CET
This is so so true. For many people, that's what depression can do to you. And from that last look in his eyes... damn.
MattK | July 21, 00:05 CET
And, being a shy type who works for a homelessness charity, I may have been over-identifying a bit... So, thanks for reminding me of the joy, Joss & Co, but try not to mess with it so quickly next time, please. Especially when you've got a set-up of 3 characters who all think the world's in a bit of a mess and have different ways of dealing with it - feels a bit like my way of dealing has been trashed. Sorry for such a negative post but am feeling all up-and-down.
BizarroGirl | July 21, 00:17 CET
(and I'll quote Sondheim:
)
and got classic tragedy.
I was stunned and angry at Penny's death the first time I saw it, on Friday, having spent two days imaging comedic resolutions. Now that I've watched it again in a piece, rather than separated, it's still a pain, but there's no anger.
Thank you, writers and directors, cast and crew; very well done.
htom | July 21, 00:20 CET
Other characters have died, sure, but they all had a chance to give something to the world first. Penny was barely starting.
ETA to apologise for daft levels of taking the whole Penny thing personally. Was having a very strange night, I'll attempt to make a more sensible contribution to the debate next time. Or possibly a much sillier one... but silly-silly, not vortex-of-self-pity silly.
[ edited by BizarroGirl on 2008-07-24 18:17 ]
BizarroGirl | July 21, 00:53 CET
It's the What's-Her-Name Shelter for the Homeless, the ribbon-cutting's next week.
zoinkers | July 21, 01:24 CET
BizarroGirl | July 21, 00:17 CET
I don't think that is stupid at all, thats the beauty of his work you can totally immerse yourself in another world. I have thrown myself into one of the 'verses any time I was depressed and needed an escape...in fact Dr. Horrible is what is getting me through a rough relationship patch at the moment...thanks again for all you do Joss!
chance | July 21, 01:47 CET
I love this word - whedonic!
floofypooh | July 21, 01:52 CET
angeliclestat | July 21, 01:59 CET
Yeah, I can't believe it either. I don't think he grew into roses or such, but I did think it was strange that he thanked Penny and "shared" power with "lesser-folk". And, Jakob Schmidt said (quite eloquently, BTW), these heroes are struggling over power... why would CH share that power (which he announces, empowering them) while DH takes that power away and holds it to himself. From this point, it seems as CH grew a little while DH did not.
Jakob Schmidt | July 20, 14:14 CET
I really liked your analysis, Jakob. I feel like we're dissecting Macbeth or something. I don't know how I feel about DH & CH fighting over Penny's affections in the 3rd Act. Dr. Horrible is glad that she is not there (even though she is) for his assention; his plans have diverged from their original path and Penny is no longer needed on this route (hence her death). And Billy, himself, is no longer needed. His ego (Billy) is submerged while his alter-ego (Dr. H) is the one he shows the public. But, things didn't turn out as expected (hence the longing on the vlog as Billy). "The Nightmare is Here" & "Dr. Horrible is Here" when he puts on the goggles and red lab coat, I was wondering today if Dr. Horrible is Billy's nightmare. You know, with Lady Macbeth (sort of kind of). The task is complete, with unexpected results, and now Billy "dies" as Dr. Horrible lives on.
However, Billy hasn't actually died (he is part of Dr. Horrible) unlike Lady Macbeth. But he certainly isn't in control anymore. I don't know, but I think there may be valid points. Perhaps someone who is still fresh with Shakespeare can take a whack at it.
Saje | July 20, 09:44 CET
Believe me, Saje, it wasn't intentional. I just got the feeling last night that I was being long-winded. So I checked. And I was. Nothing to write home about, I guess. :)
korkster | July 21, 01:59 CET
zoinkers | July 21, 02:06 CET
petranef | July 21, 02:16 CET
I can see why you would say that, because the character who most represented that - Penny - died. But then you're going past the point that it wasn't that particular characteristic that got her killed. It was Billy's obsession with her, that put her in the place she was in and yes, maybe her affection for CH as well. But it was very little to do with her outlook on life or her goals.
In fact, if anything, the narrative showed that her way of changing things was successfull: she had her homeless shelter built, got to help more people and even changed one of the biggest tools out there a tiny bit, because her friendliness and selflessness was so infectuous. Whereas DH's way of changing things - selfishly, trying to get what he wanted and trying to become powerfull and important - was portrayed as 'wrong', because he got 'punished' by losing everything he loved. In fact, his 'essence'/'soul'/'inner goodness' died because of it. If only Billy had been more like Penny, nothing would've gone wrong. So I'd say that the message here is actually contrary to what you're taking away from it, BizarroGirl.
GVH | July 21, 02:35 CET
In the European, Christian, Middle Ages, Despair was one of the 7 deadly sins. It was assumed that indeed it would lead people to believe that they were not worth saving and so they would become sinners- or worse sinners.
I don't see despair changing Dr. Horrible for the better.
Lioness | July 21, 02:36 CET
Nowadays, Despair is one of the seven Endless ;).
zeitgeist | July 21, 03:17 CET
Got anybody left to tell?
Anonymous1 | July 21, 03:24 CET
lifeweek. I'm thinking of titling it "My Affair with Dr. Horrible". But, you know, in French.No Macbeth lovers here? Oh, I was hoping for more depth-diving and parallelisms. :(
korkster | July 21, 04:01 CET
So, a maybe yay!
crazygolfa | July 21, 04:03 CET
zeitgeist | July 21, 04:12 CET
zeitgeist | July 21, 04:12 CET
what's that, 889? ;-)
SoddingNancyTribe | July 21, 04:13 CET
zeitgeist | July 21, 04:15 CET
crazygolfa | July 21, 04:16 CET
Or am I just insane?
Alright, maybe don't answer that second question. But I would like to know the first. It's been bugging me all day.
crazygolfa, thanks for reminding me of my new-found Twitter addiction. I actually got mad at myself for not checking immediately when I signed on. Of course, Whedonesque is usually my first and final stop. (Now have to have 3 pages open just to keep up with everything. My poor fingers!)
korkster | July 21, 04:25 CET
The One True b!X | July 21, 04:43 CET
petranef | July 21, 04:47 CET
hacksaway | July 21, 04:51 CET
Tonya J | July 21, 05:07 CET
Or the car turning right on a no right red sign. Thanks, hacksaway. ;)
korkster | July 21, 05:07 CET
ETA: Not intentional, I swear, SNT. I thought each of my posts spoke of a different aspect. Well, most. ;)
But you make a good point.
Does this help?
[ edited by korkster on 2008-07-21 05:15 ]
[ edited by korkster on 2008-07-21 05:16 ]
korkster | July 21, 05:10 CET
SoddingNancyTribe | July 21, 05:12 CET
Awww. And here I was hurrying up for one more go at it and hoping to get in just under the wire. :D
(And then I'm buying it on DVD for everyone I've ever met.)
NYPinTA | July 21, 05:26 CET
The Captain comic showes one kid (who I assumed to be Hammer) reporting the science kid (who I assumed to be Billy) to the authorities. But on second read, I realize those probably are the kids in the classroom he is addressing.
I noticed that the kid turning in or getting arrested has the same color eyes as Hammer in the comics. Can't tell what color eyes Dr. Horrible has in the comic. Anybody know what color eyes Neil Patrick Harris has? The science kid has green eyes.
In the comic, Captain Hammer says "I was born into this world with a full head of hair and the ability to bench press 500 pounds." The was is the only word bolded in the comic.
What if that was really true. If Captain Hammer just appeared one day. I know some babies are born with a full head of hair but we really don't know anything about his origin. Never felt pain before. Did he have a mother at all.
Look at this odd statement from Act III "Oh mama, someone maternal".
I was also surprised the word Cardiologist didn't appear in the 3 episodes. Cardiologist seemed awful important to Captain Hammer.
And Captain Hammer said to Dr. Horrible in Act II "I get what you want." Did Dr. Horrible want to be a super-hero and somehow Captain Hammer was the result.
Anonymous1 | July 21, 05:34 CET
In high school, it is abandoning his friends. It works the same here. He starts to disregard his blossoming friendship with Penny with his desire to become part of the cool new crowd. He also starts to disregard his friendship with Moist as well. He spends all his time trying to impress the ELE so that he join something them, as a result he loses what makes him who he is.
In the very first scene, he is Billy pretending to be Dr. Horrible. He's still that geeky teenager that is yearning to be apart of the cool kids clique. As we continue to follow Billy's journey, he starts to lose himself in the act. By the end, he can only show the act to everyone because that's what they expect from him.
That's why the final frame of the final act was so poignant, it is where we see that the only time he can be Billy is when he is all alone. Now, in private, I think he wants to be Billy again, because when he was Billy he was happier than he is now. At least, then he had a connection with people, as others have eloquently said, but now, he doesn't have that, and he's miserable.
crazygolfa | July 21, 05:37 CET
petranef | July 21, 05:43 CET
And, I have to re-iterate, that "now the nightmare's real; now Dr. Horrible is here" (in red garb and goggles) pushes the point of Billy's dreams are turned into a nightmare.
Question on goggles, on and off his eyes. Just want thoughts on this, I know it's been touched before... By actually wearing the goggles (covering his eyes), is it to hide his true (Billy) self from the public and give them what they want/expect (Dr. Horrible), or is he covering his eyes so he doesn't have to see what he's become reflected in their eyes?
korkster | July 21, 05:47 CET
NYPinTA | July 21, 05:49 CET
My opinion is, one day in middle school, it was a rainy day and his parents were supposed to pick him up. Only, they never came. Unfortunately, no one at the school noticed him, so he was left standing outside in a torrential rain. Thus, the rain became part of him, so as a result, he always looks like he came inside from walking in the rain, even though it could be 100 degrees and sunny outside.
[ edited by crazygolfa on 2008-07-21 05:52 ]
crazygolfa | July 21, 05:50 CET
korkster | July 21, 05:50 CET
petranef | July 21, 05:57 CET
NYPinTA | July 21, 05:58 CET
That's alright. I kind of appreciate CH's spelling-out of things, like "the hammer is my penis". This way I don't have to wonder if I missed something.
korkster | July 21, 06:02 CET
Anonymous1 | July 21, 06:11 CET
korkster | July 21, 06:18 CET
Speaking of spreading the word (as someone was up-thread), I was on a very crowded bus Friday night - standing up - and ran into an acquaintance who is a Whedon fan. I mentioned Dr. Horrible to her and she hadn't heard of it, so I spent the whole trip raving about it and several times said the website address (quite loudly)! ;)
One thing nobody else has mentioned - at least not in this thread because I've read every single post here - is something that struck me the second time I watched Act I and every time since: Dr. Horrible (evil) is dressed in white with white (or partially gray) gloves, whereas Dr. Hammer (hero) is dressed in black with black gloves. I kept thinking of 'black hats' and 'white hats' from old cowboy movies, so it was even more significant to me at the end when Dr. Horrible dons black gloves - and red coat, possibly to show his loss of innocence and/or drawing his first blood.
I love all the songs and they take turns sticking in my head, but I think my favourite is probably "On the Rise", especially the duet at the end which sends shivers up my back.
samatwitch | July 21, 06:22 CET
I have that song in my head at this very moment. And I was thinking about the color change of Dr H's costume from white to red, but never thought about Dr H being in white while Captain Hammer is in black. Mabye that's because I wear black pretty much all the time.
I too appreciate that they are keeping it up for a bit. Stoppage time, perhaps?
NYPinTA | July 21, 06:30 CET
samatwitch | July 21, 06:22 CET
I believe the white vs. black colors were discussed on the Act 1 thread, but it is important to bring it up again. You pretty much hit the nail on the head.
Not only is there a loss of innocence, but there is also a loss of balance. No more white vs. black... only black (DH) on black (CH). Unbalanced power reminds me of Glory being crazy without Ben to keep her in check. Who's going to keep the ELOE in check?
korkster | July 21, 06:39 CET
korkster | July 21, 06:44 CET
I can't believe I didn't notice the black/white symbolism before.
Good catch.
Loose Deckplate | July 21, 06:45 CET
korkster, since no one else will brave your Macbeth questions, I'll take a stab. I don't see the parallel between Penny and Lady Macbeth. Lady Macbeth willingly enters into her husband's evil plans, pushes them forward when he falters, and then Kills herself when she consumed with guilt over it. Penny works toward building a home for the homeless and a life for herself. She is killed accidentally when she stops protecting herself upon recognizing a man she cares about.
I thought Hamlet might have some better fits, but it is still tenuous at best. :-)
newcj | July 21, 06:48 CET
When he's defeated, it's DARK outside. Note in Act 2 when he's beaten up, it's dark outside... giving his room more of a yellow-ish light. This is the same when Dr. Horrible takes over. His last vlog entry, as Billy, it's DARK outside.
I would argue that the lighting on this (DAYLIGHT vs. DARK) demonstrates the temporary defeat of Dr. Horrible (Act 2) and the definite defeat of Billy (Act 3). Check it out.
korkster | July 21, 06:54 CET
I thought Hamlet might have some better fits, but it is still tenuous at best. :-)
newcj | July 21, 06:48 CET
Then, could it be looked at this way- Billy is Lady Macbeth and Dr. Horrible is Macbeth?
Billy willing entertains & applies to ELOE, even fixes up Stun Ray to Death Ray. He gets the acceptance Dr. Horrible needs for the ELOE, and consumed by guilt over Penny (Duncan?), dies a little.
What do you think? Better?
korkster | July 21, 06:58 CET
crazygolfa | July 21, 06:58 CET
I noticed her during my first viewing. After re-watching Act III several times, I'm pretty sure it's SMG in a wig. I was way more surprised by the possibility that SMG would make an uncredited appearance than I was by the ending.
danncer | July 21, 07:11 CET
The One True b!X | July 21, 07:15 CET
hacksaway | July 21, 07:35 CET
On the "Brand New Day", Billy decides to kill CH, which is determination and confidence that they'll rule Australia. The "sun is high, birds are chirping... angels are singing"... everything is light (and DAYLIGHT) to further express his commitment and action to take down CH.
In Act 3, there are no outside scenes, but the light in the auditorium changes. When Billy shows up with his Freeze Ray & Death Ray it's a cold light blue hue in the room (kind of like his vlog successful colors). However, when the Freeze Ray fails, the color changes to the yellow hue of defeat and devastation. It stays yellowish through Penny's death.
The outside scenes are back in DAYLIGHT with Dr. Horrible being victorious as the Worst Evil ever, everyone fearing him.
Cut to after party, Billy dressing into Dr. Horrible's red & black outfit. It's DARK outside and the yellow hue is back. This is where he declares that the "nightmare is real" and that "Dr. Horrible is here".
And, of course, the final shot we see Billy in the yellow-defeated-hue confessing his demise and not feeling a thing.
That was cool. What do you think?
korkster | July 21, 07:37 CET
Billy willing entertains & applies to ELOE, even fixes up Stun Ray to Death Ray. He gets the acceptance Dr. Horrible needs for the ELOE, and consumed by guilt over Penny (Duncan?), dies a little.
What do you think? Better?
korkster | July 21, 06:58 CET
I've got to get some sleep, but if you are going to this crazy literature parallels place, a place I have admittedly played before, how about Dr. Horrible as Macbeth and Captain Hammer as Lady Macbeth. Dr. Horrible creates the plans but is ineffectual until Captain Hammer pushes his buttons with a verbal assault on his manhood that forces him into action. It backfires on Captain Hammer making him crazy and a piece of Dr. Horrible dies at the same time. As I have pointed out before, it is unfinished. ;-)
BTW, why Macbeth?
Good night. I'll read your answer tomorrow.
newcj | July 21, 07:41 CET
Or, perhaps a combination of Billy & Captain Hammer play the Lady Macbeth card. CH doing the pushing, while Billy does the planning.
Well, although I did take a Shakespeare class in high school that reflected on most of his works, it was my English class that dissected the Macbeth play, everything from stage directions and night, whether it was a soliloquy or not, to the 10 different meanings behind a word. And, while I've forgotten most of it, it was nudging me in my head today as I watched Dr. Horrible. I always enjoyed this sort of descent and thought it might be fun to apply here. Especially if something can be made of it.
Good night, newcj. Don't dream of floating daggers on my account. :)
korkster | July 21, 07:50 CET
Or of Birnam Wood.
The One True b!X | July 21, 07:57 CET
Also, Penny totally is wearing a sweater vest, I really want wig/sunglasses lady to be SMG, and I love all of you here for 900+ posts discussing a 45 minute web series. This is definitely my e-home. :)
nicetomeatyou | July 21, 08:01 CET
Quite an amazing week.
[ edited by zoinkers on 2008-07-21 09:13 ]
zoinkers | July 21, 09:12 CET
Apart from that, I thought it was great. As with most people, I liked Act II best, but that's just because you'd already met the characters, and could build into the upcoming denouement. As for some of the comments about Captain Hammer being redeemable ... don't we all want to redeem the handsome bad guy (and let's face it, he was badder than Dr H really)? Mind you, we also want to cuddle the good/bad doctor and tell him everything's alright ...
jane0904 | July 21, 09:18 CET
Jakob Schmidt | July 21, 10:21 CET
jpr | July 21, 10:52 CET
But maybe I shouldn't worry too much about this, since I'm going to buy the DVD anyway.
Jakob Schmidt | July 21, 11:00 CET
And i'll be getting the DVD too, natch ;).
Saje, you're overly depressing today. Give us some jokes, man! ...
Here's one that'll slay you GVH ;):
Now the first guy he jumps right across with no problem. But his friend, his friend daren’t make the leap. Y’see he’s afraid of falling… So then the first guy has an idea. He says “Hey! I have my flash light with me. I'll shine it across the gap between the buildings. You can walk across the beam and join me.” B-But the second guy just shakes his head. He suh-says …he says “What you think I am, crazy? You'd turn it off when I was half way across.
It's almost apropos too since the eponymous story is partly about being trapped in a role you wouldn't necessarily have chosen for yourself. I think Horrible would get it, put it that way.
Reckon I may need to go to my happy place for a while ;-).
Saje | July 21, 12:33 CET
That scares me because, as soon as we reach that point, another set goal might be set, and we'll find another effort of sorts to reach it.
Anyway,these threads have been quite an interesting trial for when Dollhouse premieres. The Whedon fanbase scenario, nowadays is quite different from the one we had back in 2003, which was when I joined Whedonesque, and Angel was still on.
I had the chance to watch "The Dark Knight" twice during this weekend, and somehow, I can see several parallels between the movie (which deserves every praise it's been receiving) and the journey portrayed by our ME crew in Dr. Horrible Sing-Along Blog.
It can make you take another perspective into the enjoyment of our little musical.
Numfar PTB | July 21, 12:54 CET
Nine hundred thirty six comments, lost to me forever because that is not something you can just catch up on, in your spare time.
*sob*
OMG my new computer is made of awesomeness, I'd sleep with it, if I could.
Shey | July 21, 13:54 CET
Saje | July 21, 13:58 CET
Saje - *cough*.
zeitgeist | July 21, 14:24 CET
Is anyone else completely mesmerized by the moment where Dr. Horrible twirls as he reveals the death ray, and everything changes?
Bad Horse doesn't look so tough. He was scarier in my brain. Fake Thomas Jefferson did not disappoint though.
Sunfire | July 21, 14:40 CET
Saje, you big old batman fanboy! ;). Is it bad, that I found the joke sort-of funny? And is it, maybe, worse that I found myself thinking: "well, even they were really, really light they still could not make any use of the radiation pressure the photons in the light beam are producing, because that force is working in the wrong direction"? ;)
Shey: congrats on the new computer! And hey, you can read up on this thread, y'know. In fact, if you take your computer to bed with you which, apareantly, already crossed your mind ;), you could use it as a little light pre-sleep reading.
So, any chance of this thread hitting 1,000 comments? ;)
ETA:
Y'know, thinking about it, that so would've been my user name, had I joined whedonesque after Dr. Horrible. Still, it might be a fun user-name on political blogs :p
[ edited by GVH on 2008-07-21 15:00 ]
GVH | July 21, 14:58 CET
Guilty (though not fanboi hopefully ;). And nah, it is sort-of funny and it's also quite sweet in its own bizarre way because the point is The Joker tells it and Batman laughs i.e. he gets it, they share a connection, for the briefest moment two arch enemies are just two extremely screwed up guys that understand each other's paranoia and emotional pain.
And in the context of Dr Horrible the central thesis actually makes sense too (The Joker is trying to prove that all it takes to turn a good man insanely murderous is "one bad day") which is kind of what happens to Billy in the end (though in the early stages - as we see him at the end of act III - he's much more trapped in the role than Joker). The tragedy in both cases is that they both had a chance to choose and they both chose poorly (Batman, faced with a similar "one bad day" chooses to save people from sharing his suffering).
Saje | July 21, 15:33 CET
Also, his wonder at the idea of sleeping with her twice... while he's interested in trying the "wierd stuff," surely he could have ample opportunity with any number of people (including our groupies & any previous dates), but he's become smitten with Penny. He's willing to endure scarey, alcoholic bums and even scarier water fowl just to spend time with her.
And in the end, I think he is devestated by her loss. I doubt he's ever lost anything that he valued before. And to have been there, to have been unable to prevent it, and even to have been partially responsible...
Anyway. I still think he's a choad and a cad, but I think he's a choad and a cad with genuine feelings. The one-up-manship with Horrible was just gravy.
QingTing | July 21, 15:36 CET
I...didn't see it that way.
Succatash | July 21, 16:21 CET
I think that has something to do with the fact that we all watched Pts. 1 & 2 over & over and fell in love with Billy.
jcs | July 21, 16:23 CET
From their most recent Tweet: "We're working on iTunes international access. CD coming soon, DVD to follow, both will be available all over the world."
The One True b!X | July 21, 16:24 CET
angeliclestat | July 21, 16:37 CET
After that, I laughed at the "spelt with" bit in Dr. Horrible's dramatic second song (where, previously, I was simply in awe with the way NPH's eyes look scarily almost-insane-like there) and, notably, at things like Moist trying to hold onto the loot and the apearance of actual-horse-'Bad Horse', after tragedy has struck. I didn't find myself laughing at those in earlier viewings because I was simply too hit emotionally. It's not that I didn't notice the funny before, it's just that it had more influence on my experience of the overall tone in this latest rewatch.
This is something that happened to me before, when rewatching Serenity, by the way: first (few) time(s) 'round I was completely shocked by Wash' death and scared for the lives of the others (even in rewatch, for some silly reason :)), while later viewings had me laugh at jokes like "tell me you brought them this time" etcetera.
This reïnforces the idea that, really, the overall tone of 'Dr. Horrible' was quite consistent, and there was even still some humor in the dramatic denouement, which shines through more, once the drama doesn't hurt so much (which, probably, for people outside of our fandom or people seeing it first time in one go, is on first viewing).
Bix: thanks for the update! I'm so looking forward to the CD and DVD. I'm wondering if Jed is working on mixing the CD full-time now, in which case: respect. This is, after all, still a project none of them is sure they'll even make money on.
ETA: reworded that first bit to let my comment approach the actual english language more ;)
[ edited by GVH on 2008-07-21 16:45 ]
GVH | July 21, 16:42 CET
Sunfire | July 21, 16:57 CET
Oh yes!!! I agree, and that makes this thing even more brilliant, because no one here is a cliche, and CH too gets character development. I was just discussing the same thing in another place, here's reposting:
He was a total dick but he was totally falling for Penny, he just couldn't express it properly as all those feelings were unfamiliar to him.
Pain, compassion - he even was spelling it out in his speech about flexing unfamiliar muscles! And it was sooo funny that the only way he could tell what he was feeling was by using muscles metaphore. As he's all muscles/no brains guy, doesn't even have a language for anything else.
And his song about homeless heroes was absolutely sincere - because he wasn't filtering any of the obnoxious and nasty stuff, it was like turette with him. And therefore whatever he sang about coming around on Penny's views, feeling bad for homeless, was sincere.
And it was the first time he even comprehended sleeping with the same girl twice, and again he had no language to talk about it - "weird stuff" all he could come up with. But he was definitely falling for her and coming around to her ways, i.e. he was moving in the opposite direction to Dr.Horrible.
And yes, him talking about pain in his heart, and shouting to victims as he ran away - "get out of my head", indicates not just the physical pain, but all those unfamiliar feelings of compassion and sadness doing a number on him.
Another brililant touch: the way how it ends for both of them, with Dr.Horrible saying "I don't feel a thing" and Cpt.Hammer crying on psychiatrist coach from feeling too much.
I actually thought, after Act II, that Billy and Cpt.Hammer would reconcile in the end, both moved by Penny, and team up to fight the really bad baddies, like Bad Horse. Because again, if you look at it as a political metaphore, that's a realistic optimistical outcome out of social strife. Both sides agreeing to a compromise, avoiding violence. And realizing it's not a zero-sum game for them.
But it's ending with Penny's death instead - I see it as absolutely earned and inevitable, again in context of political/social metaphore. Idealistic revolutionaries disgusted with the status quo and trying to violently overthrow the establishment almost inevitably end up not better, and mostly worse, than the powers they tried to replace.
And such a confrontation - between smug, ruthless establishment and the rebels, 100% inevitably ends with innocent people getting killed.
In this case Joss didn't play his usual trick of spoling the happy end - he just held up a mirror to the world.
We also might think of Penny as a symbol of "moral right" which both sides are trying to claim and both sides lose it, kill it by escalating to hatred and violence, and the desire to just be on top.
As for similarities with literary classics - again, have to go with Raskolnikov and "Crime and Punishment".
Nata | July 21, 17:42 CET
hacksaway | July 21, 18:30 CET
Maybe, but we still end with him on a psychiatrist's coach. I agree, it's always mostly about him, but he was talking "it hurts in my heart" and "get out of my head". It all affected him a lot, and changed him a lot - but where and how would he "go from here" we would need a sequel to see. Maybe back to his smug self, but maybe not.
Also, that song of his in Act III must be taken at face value, every bit of it - bad *and* good. He's too stupid and self-involved to hide any of his thoughts or think about their impact, he spilled it all out. I.e. we should believe in his flexing the muscles of compassion along with the rest of the crap he spewed.
In that song - What You See Is What You Get. And what we saw showed pretty big change for him. Still his hate of Dr.Horrible was bigger than that, and so he pulled that trigger...
Nata | July 21, 18:48 CET
korkster | July 21, 19:23 CET
I wasn't sure about act one, thought act two very good, and felt act three made the whole thing brilliant. Loved it, and I've had the songs playing in my head since I watched the whole thing on Saturday.
I don't know if Dr. Horrible and Penny could ever have been a couple, any more than Penny and Captain Hammer made sense as a couple. For one thing, the two didn't really agree on much unless Dr. Horrible lied about what he really felt (psyche!). I don't know how you tack on a happy ending to anything so clearly destined for a bad one.
Can't wait (though I guess I'll have to) for the sequel.
bigsofty | July 21, 19:47 CET
I typically don't like musicals much. I was looking forward to this as it was new Whedon, had Fillion, Harris and Day, and is striking out in uncharted territory. But I must say the musical aspect just might be my favorite part. Joss and crew put something together special enough to get past my dislike. I even found myself singing some of the songs.
Congrats Team Horrible! You have all worked to create something not horrible at all, not even close.
Shameless Plug - We got 1/3 of our Dr. Horrible shirt order for Comic-Con. So yes, we will have all 4 designs in both mens and womens at Comic-Con. From Wednesday on until they sell out.
danregal | July 21, 19:52 CET
The One True b!X | July 21, 20:09 CET
Joss BRILLIANT!!!! OMG. Hubby and I watched them all as they came out and it was just amazing. And when Penny bought the farm, I was shocked but then immediately said to hubby "Well, it is Joss, we should have known!"
And I also second -- "Slippage" was just simply amazing (all the songs were but this is by far my favorite).
I can't wait for the DVD and soundtrack. Especially to get the DVD for my BFF who has no internet. Sad thing she is but since she's the one that introduced me to the world of Jossness in the first place, I feel it's only fair to return the favor.
WilliamTheBloody | July 21, 20:41 CET
zoinkers | July 21, 20:52 CET
Well sure, as long as she's got $20, she can get whichever one she wants. :)
danregal | July 21, 20:55 CET
bigsofty | July 21, 19:47 CET
Also my thoughts, exactly, bigsofty. Even though I rooted for Billy to have a relationship with Penny (in a way I still am), I wondered what would have happened if Billy finally got her praise (which he had all the time, BTW).
Would he be as turned off with Penny's efforts for the homeless as he was with the signatures? I know he was genuinely happy when Penny got the building, but in "Brand New Day", he seems to think his efforts will win her over (to his side of thinking)...
"and she may cry but her tears will dry when I hand her the keys to a shiny new Australia"
I don't think there is room for compromise in Billy's world. Just as he turned his back on her to win the Wonderflonium, he'd probably turn his back for world domination.
Or, Penny would realize that Billy & CH aren't that much different in their narrow-mindedness, and she'd leave them both.
korkster | July 21, 20:56 CET
korkster | July 21, 20:57 CET
danregal | July 21, 21:42 CET
The One True b!X | July 21, 21:48 CET
Anyways, my final grade of DHSAB is 9.69438/10. :)
crazygolfa | July 21, 21:56 CET
Why so harsh, crazygolfa? Wasn't it liquid gold (which is even better than solid gold- you can shape it into anything and they're not so bulky)?
ETA: Is anyone else proud that we've managed to stay more or less on topic for 960+ comments? I mean, where are the squirrels, cliffs, and math quizzes?
[ edited by korkster on 2008-07-21 22:10 ]
korkster | July 21, 22:08 CET
Someone less nice than Penny would probably have left both DH and CH but Penny seems the kinds to stay and help.
BTW,I have to ask,how many people here have twitter?
okelay | July 21, 22:21 CET
Thanks, okelay, for the boost of confidence. :) Like I said, I'm rusty.
I know 4 from here who have Twitter. I also have Twitter, under korkster (go figure). :)
korkster | July 21, 22:30 CET
I'm proud.
So, anyone see those counting squirrels on MadeUpTelevisionProgram last night? I still can't believe they could do integral calculus! Too bad they fell off that one cliff at the end. Although one was left hanging. It was a real cliffhanger... bun-dun *tsjjjj*
sorry!
GVH | July 21, 23:14 CET
The One True b!X | July 21, 23:14 CET
I tweety-tweet-tweet. My handle is crazygolfa, surprisingly.
crazygolfa | July 21, 23:22 CET
GVH | July 21, 23:30 CET
chance | July 21, 23:40 CET
Im confused, was is ever stated that Moist was part of the henchman's union?
okelay | July 21, 23:42 CET
ETA: ok well not "conflict" diamonds...but still, if your a super-villian dater you might like that the diamonds were not so ethically gained...ok now I'm overthinking this...
[ edited by chance on 2008-07-22 01:10 ]
chance | July 21, 23:42 CET
Dr. Horrible was fantastic. Reading a large percentage of these nearly 1000 posts has also been fantastic. =)
I am inspired to do something awesome. Horribly awesome? Maybe.
- Andrea
[lurk]
Andrea 2s1 | July 21, 23:44 CET
That could really be her I reckon. Cool if so.
(checking is fun cos it's another chance to see/hear Nathan's truly brilliant and hilarious 'Spoken Shatner' style hero song. "Captain Hammer sings ..." anyone ? ;)
Saje | July 21, 23:48 CET
I tweety-tweet-tweet. My handle is crazygolfa, surprisingly.
crazygolfa | July 21, 23:22 CET
You bring up a good point. I think I might have missed something on these names. Does Pink Pummeler & Conflict Diamond have any connotations that I'm not getting?
okelay, we saw Conflict Diamond?? Was he at the party? If so, I totally missed it. Is there a map?
Nice try, GVH, on de-railment, but I think I can actually apply this to Dr. Horrible:
Integral calculus= death nerd= Billy= squirrel-like= fell off cliff (became Dr. Horrible)= one was left hanging (Billy trapped on inside)= real cliffhanger (we all want a sequel)
See how I did that? ;)
korkster | July 22, 00:11 CET
korkster | July 22, 00:12 CET
okelay | July 22, 00:15 CET
korkster | July 22, 00:16 CET
okelay | July 22, 00:30 CET
The One True b!X | July 22, 00:42 CET
I was confused, and had wondered if CD, B&S, & PP were at DH's party as well. Probably not, though.
Now, back to
memy question: Is there anything funny about Conflict Diamond?korkster | July 22, 00:46 CET
okelay | July 22, 00:54 CET
The .30562 percent from being perfect is two reasons. One, Penny died which accounts for the .3 percent, and secondly, the .00562 percent is that there was no Cheese Man. Every thing must have a Cheese Man! :)
crazygolfa | July 22, 00:55 CET
Did you not get the memo?
ETA: Between your demands and the CheeseyBreads place on the Guild, I'm hungry.
[ edited by korkster on 2008-07-22 00:59 ]
korkster | July 22, 00:57 CET
korkster | July 22, 00:58 CET
chance | July 22, 01:12 CET
korkster, color me impressed. I guess you have discoverred the power to turn anything into a treatise on Dr. Horrible (wait, does that make you one of these agenda analysts, Bix was talking about cross-thread? ;))
ETA: added a smiley, because on re-read, the above comment sounded harsh (while it was meant tongue-in-cheek)
[ edited by GVH on 2008-07-22 02:38 ]
GVH | July 22, 01:18 CET
okelay | July 22, 01:19 CET
The One True b!X | July 22, 01:20 CET
ETA: ok so now y'all are afraid to post...
[ edited by chance on 2008-07-22 01:37 ]
chance | July 22, 01:21 CET
Succatash | July 22, 01:40 CET
okelay | July 22, 01:42 CET
"Another Whedon Alum stopped by, but only to visit. In the case that this person is a cast member though, I'm gonna keep that one for now."
So I'm thinking yeah, could be, could be.
QuoterGal | July 22, 01:45 CET
kalia | July 22, 02:28 CET
I think Captain Hammer said "Get Out of My Way" and then he pushes a woman (Norma Jean wrote about it in her blog) to the floor. I think she was in a sitting position.
On Captain Hammer
I think Captain Hammer dates every woman he saves and even women who are not really in any danger. Note how he jumped off the van and sang to the woman. She wasn't in any danger from the van at that time. But still he sang this.
http://doctorhorrible.net/sf-forum/the-music/lyrics-transcript/page-1/
CAPTAIN HAMMER
"Seems destiny ends with me saving you.
The only doom that's looming is you loving me to death.
I'll give you a sec to catch your breath."
Then he has to save Penny.
"CAPTAIN HAMMER
The only doom that's looming is you loving me to death.
PENNY
Assuming I'm not loving you to death.
DR HORRIBLE
What-ev-er
CAPTAIN HAMMER and PENNY
So please give me a sec to catch my breath"
I was hoping the loving me to death wasn't literal when I heard that in Act I. And Well, Penny didn't die after the first time.
Until Penny, he dated women he saved or just came across and had sex with them and went on to the next woman.
"CAPTAIN HAMMER
This is so nice.
I just might sleep with the same girl twice.
They say it's better the second time,
they say you get to do the weird stuff."
CAPTAIN HAMMER
"When I fell deeply in love with my serious long-term girlfriend Penny, wave your hand Penny,"
To Captain Hammer Long-term here means anything past "I totally had sex with her" that one time. And that never happened before.
Anonymous1 | July 22, 02:33 CET
- Wikipedia
The One True b!X | July 22, 02:35 CET
Can't believe we're going to pass 1,000 posts - will this ever be beaten? Actually I'm wondering how this thread would rank on a list of the longest threads anywhere on the internet.
Anyway, back to Dr Horrible itself. Act III really did hit me pretty hard - perhaps more so than even the first time I saw The Body. As others have said I think it was the repeated viewings of the previous acts (and pretty much falling in love with it) that made the ending feel so brutal. First time I watched all three acts together (which was my third viewing of Act III) I just felt numb - even the jokes weren't funny. However, on the couple of further viewings I had before it vanished, I did rediscover the joy of the previous acts and realised how appropriate the bleak ending was. The songs in Act III don't really click as well for me however, so it still remains my least favourite of the acts for now, even though I do appreciate it so much more now than when I first saw it.
The only slight problem I see, going forward, is that even if Joss writes a story for children about teddy bears, now I'll still be expecting it to end in a massacre! ;)
There's no doubt that it's an amazing project and I’m really looking forward to getting that download and later the DVD to watch it all again. That a 45 minute project can be this moving and fascinating is just incredible. Across the different threads here, there's over 2,000 comments on DH since it launched. I’ve got nothing more to add other than thank you.
NotaViking | July 22, 02:38 CET
Yeah, can't bobw1o just answer it for us now? ;)
The One True b!X | July 22, 02:41 CET
cypher: I'd say that for a blog, this is a friggin' awesome amount of posts. For any old posting board though, where there are nonsense threads like "answer a question, ask a new one", 1,000 comments would be a more regular occurence, I'd guess.
ETA: crap, if I would've typed faster, I could've had the 1,000th post ;)
[ edited by GVH on 2008-07-22 02:42 ]
GVH | July 22, 02:41 CET
Does the Captain Hammer Command Center have a video surveillance system? Felicia doesn't have to do Craft Services. If nothing else happens (seems Joss thought about zombies but rejected it) , there is always flashbacks and the video or "capture" like in Serenity.
Anonymous1 | July 22, 02:42 CET
Just be glad I didn't simply post "snarf", which is what was the norm on a system I was on 15 years ago.
The One True b!X | July 22, 02:45 CET
Thinking about David Fury's question "who's gay?", there has been this tacit assumption throughout that Moist is straight and therefore that Conflict Diamond is also a straight male, and Bait and Switch are women. But the bedroom scene with Moist and the Pink Pummeler suggests things could be more complicated.
Which has me thinking that maybe Bait and Switch are Ben and Glory.
And, on a unrelated note, at the end, when they show how the three groupies have switched to being Dr Horrible fans, the girl who laminates everything (is that a super power I wonder?) is holding a picture of Dr H. Except it doesn't look like a photo to me, it looks more like it's supposed to be a Jason Palmer print.
Anyone else notice that?
AlanD | July 22, 02:52 CET
NotaViking | July 22, 02:58 CET
Thanks for explaining 'conflict diamond', I had not heard that before
okelay | July 22, 03:09 CET
Also were the two guys rollng Penny's body away the same guys who were singing about CH becoming "political" and cleaning up the streets?
And just have to add - I thought Act II was the best song-wise and Act III didn't have really catchy tunes. Now I think Act III is the killer musically, especially the last minute of Dr.Horrible becoming evil.
Nata | July 22, 04:46 CET
As the Purple Pimp, my catch phrase should be "Get them, my womens!", "Church on the MOVE!" or "My pimp hand be STRONG".
As for a party- no, there was no party here for that. I suspect when the DVD comes out and I buy one that I'll have a rather meta moment as I throw a party here in the Lab to watch the DVD of the show that was filmed here in the Lab.
A similar event transpired when I had a party to watch the Monster House episode (Episode 22, the Mad Scientist Monster House) while sitting in the self same house. It was rad.
I don't know if I'll wear my mad scientist coat / costume or not, but who knows. I don't so much as need a reason for a party so much as an opening in the schedule. :)
Jonathan Reilly | July 22, 05:02 CET
This so gets my vote. And someday I might also steal it.
The One True b!X | July 22, 05:04 CET
NYPinTA | July 22, 05:13 CET
The One True b!X | July 22, 05:14 CET
NYPinTA | July 22, 05:16 CET
onthedrift | July 22, 07:06 CET
hacksaway | July 22, 07:33 CET
I'm going to yell it at Comic-Con at some point and see what happens.
Sounds like a pretty useful battle-cry if and when the Doctor Steel crew get their rowd on.
Saje | July 22, 09:35 CET
GVH | July 22, 13:13 CET
I was struck again at how much there is in 45 minutes. While each of the acts could be expanded to an hour (and people would then decide to trim this or that if they do it ...) it's almost a lesson in story telling. Setup, Conflict, Resolve.
Unicode infinity symbol: ∞ U+221E
htom | July 22, 15:58 CET
Speaking of connections, I'm pretty sure the Cole-Whedon clan and the Steenburgen-Danson clan have summer houses near each other here in MA. (And could I *sound* anymore Lovey Howell??!Sheesh! ;-)
OzLady | July 22, 16:16 CET
QingTing | July 22, 16:37 CET
Wait, what was I saying?
1020!
GVH | July 22, 16:49 CET
htom | July 22, 17:15 CET
GVH, I wasn't sure it could be done, but we're here over 1000 posts! Yay! This calls for a celebration of come kind. :D
Thank you everyone for realizing my dream! :)
ALright (yep, Dr. Horrible's "ALright"), let's get down to comments:
ETA: added a smiley, because on re-read, the above comment sounded harsh (while it was meant tongue-in-cheek)
[ edited by GVH on 2008-07-22 02:38 ]
GVH | July 22, 01:18 CET
No prob, GVH, you are colored. And no harsh taken... probably because I don't get your tongue here and I'm too lazy to look it up. :)
ActuallY, I have a way to get to the 2000 Post! mark. So far, we've only analyzed the words of DHSAB, but we haven't looked at the rhythm of the songs themselves. I think by dissecting the songs (treating them like poems) we can distinguish patterns in the lyrics and determine the shifts in tone that carry the plot (i.e., Billy turning into Dr. Horrible seems to have a shift in where the song rhymes). Mwah ha ha! I kid... no, actually I want to know. Anyone up for it?
No, kalia, I have no clue. Help me! I'm dumb! When you assume you make an ass out of, uh, me, actually. :\
Thanks, bix, for understanding my dumb and explaining it to me. By taking the Bait from Moist, does it make it funny though? :? Maybe you should connects the dots for me, please.
Jonathan Reilly, oh, my Purple Pimp! I've been looking for a mad scientist costume. Where, oh where did you acquire such a one? And the goggles, please. Home Depot doesn't seem to have the same model. :(
"Get them, my womens!"
This so gets my vote. And someday I might also steal it.
theonetruebix | July 22, 05:04 CET
I can see Spike saying this, actually. :)
Saje | July 22, 09:35 CET
Definitely will use it, if needed. Like Bad Horse says, "There will be blood, it might be", uh, theirs. I don't bleed. >)
hacksaway | July 22, 07:33 CET
I disagree, Hacksaway. Penny uses water as both negative & positive reflections in DHSAB. Even though it's stormy and raining, the "rain flows to the ground" and "grows the seeds you're sowing" or something to that effect. She sees it as both nurishing and overpowering... depends on the dose. For Moist, I would say that he's a nurishment to Billy/Dr. Horrible... nurish = good = something Penny would like.
She's pretty much a positive person.
korkster | July 22, 18:41 CET
korkster | July 23, 00:59 CET
But congrats on the 1,000. Everyone has dreams and sometimes they even come true! Like with Billy, when he actually became Dr. Horrible and got into the ELOE. Y'know how we were all happy for him, and cheered and the like? It's like that, only fun-er.
So: party! I'll put out some chairs, clear a space for dancing, put on some music, prepare some snacks, get some booze... Now it's time to wait and see if anyone joins in ;)
You know that sounds all wrong, right? ;). (It's the Joss-rollercoaster-thing all over again :)).
And yes, I too could totally see ATF-Spike saying 'get them, my womans!'
Soooo... *crickets chirp*.. Dr. Horrible sure was great huh?
GVH | July 23, 01:24 CET
I know y'all were talking about Hammer's dialogue in the psychiatrist's office... but it reminded me of something that puzzled me in Act III: As C.H. runs out of the room in pain after the explosion of the Death Ray- he knocks a prone victim out of the way and yells "get out of my life!"
Doesn't that seem a little strange?
P.S.- I'm so impressed...I'd never have believed that the meaning behind the character names of Fury Lieka and Conflict Diamond would have been logically explained before we got to hear the DVD commentary.
Now I throw down the gauntlet on Fake Thomas Jefferson, Dead Bowie & Professor Normal !
[ edited by MikeTMC on 2008-07-23 01:33 ]
MikeTMC | July 23, 01:32 CET
The One True b!X | July 23, 01:43 CET
GVH | July 23, 01:57 CET
And yes, I too could totally see ATF-Spike saying 'get them, my womans!'
Soooo... *crickets chirp*.. Dr. Horrible sure was great huh?
GVH | July 23, 01:24 CET
Someone needs to get their mind out of the gutter and let things lay where they are...
Wha?
Actually, I'm going to keep posting, because there IS MORE to do, damn it!
Like today, I was watching Act 3 for the millionth time, and I JUST noticed the photo flashes on Billy/Dr. Horrible after Penny dies. This plays perfectly into my light theme, where cool/light/blue= Dr. Horrible and dark/yellow= Billy. Which I discussed earlier in this thread (800's perhaps?).
ALright, so here we are, Dr. Horrible/Billy is holding the death ray up to CH and the Freeze Ray dies. The color goes to cool blue to yellow hue (his (DH) defeat of battle= Billy). Billy gets punched in the face and is spread aross the room. Explosion happens, CH runs out, Billy gets up... and sees Penny (still yellow hue). As he comes to grips, and Billy slips away... the first thing said by the public eye is "Dr. Horrible". At that time, blue flashes of light (which are supposed to be photographs) are taken. They continue to be taken as Dr. Horrible emerges as the public face and Billy slips under the cover.
Evil happens in broad daylight (Dr. Horrible color).
Party starts, Dr. Horrible goes on in (white), but it's DARK outside when he changes outfits (defeat of Billy color=DARK; red & black outfit= evil transformaion and no longer pure; goggles on= Billy covered by DH's image). Door closes on meeting.
Cut to vlog- DARK outside (Billy's defeat color), Billy's in his clothes, yellow hue in room. Billy is defeated/devastated/numb, while the image of Dr. Horrible rages on.
In my mind, the flashes of photographs taken (blue colors) represent the emergence of Dr. Horrible as a public face. The last one to see Billy as he was (yellow) was Penny.
Next comment to occur later tonight: Rhyme pattern shifts in DHSAB to reflect transgression of characters.
So, tune in! :)
korkster | July 23, 02:10 CET
Definitely need to fix that picture of NPH. It has nothing to do with DHSAB and so many better pictures of him. :P
korkster | July 23, 02:15 CET
Sunfire | July 23, 02:20 CET
Fake Thomas Jefferson wine.
And I just enjoyed this - per the comments it looks like the Alternative Lineup is the best bet.
QuoterGal | July 23, 02:27 CET
Sunfire, I'd agree with you in principle, because well... absurd and funny. But I'm thinking this'll confuse people into thinking there's unicorns in DHSAB. And then they'd just end up dissapointed. I mean, they'd get a horse, but it's just not the same thing.
Those were some amusing links there, QC :)
GVH | July 23, 02:39 CET
She's pretty much a positive person.
Well, I was mostly kidding about her not liking water/Moist, and I did only say "somewhat" negative. I agree that Penny is a positive person, but I think the not so happy imagery is worth noting. She begins with a negative (almost drowning, stormy sailing) but is hopeful that it will get better (solid ground, finding the bay). Key word is "hope" because, well, she didn't get that happy ending. So while she wants things to be good, she also acknowledges the reality that bad things exist and have happened to her. She's at a transitional (flowing water?) point, and she's hoping things are changing for the better. Having a positive outlook doesn't mean being blind to other possibilities, as she was definitely having second thoughts about Captain Hammer. Just my two cents. Mostly I was just amused by all the water references in her songs.
Sketch of Doc and Penny
Thought that was cute.
hacksaway | July 23, 02:43 CET
The picture is cute, BTW. (I actually said "BTW" to my brother and he told me to stop acting like an idiot. Can I not say that in conversation?)
I agree with you in the fact that the not-so-worthy imagery of water is worth noting. "Story sailing" and "almost drowned" are negative visuals of water, agreed. As I mentioned with my "over-powering" force of water earlier.
BUT, you can't just focus on the negative, either. The rain brings "water flowing to the ground" providing the nourishment for growing "seeds you're sowing in the ground".
Bottom thought:
Penny would like Moist as he is.
If Moist started to sweat and get nervous, she may not like him as much.
And even though she was having second thoughts about CH, that has nothing to do with DH's nourishing friend.
korkster | July 23, 05:45 CET
QG, thanks for the Fake TJ. I'm glad the ELOE picture was fixed with the correct characters. Snake Bite clearly has a snake on her staff. Still don't know what a Leika is though. :|
[ edited by korkster on 2008-07-23 05:48 ]
korkster | July 23, 05:47 CET
I may be missing the meaning of this question, but I'll give answering it a try. If I am stating the obvious please forgive me. "Bait and switch" is when someone advertises something very cheaply using it as bait just to give the seller the opportunity to get you to switch to buying something more expensive. So Moist and Conflict Diamond were going out with someone named Bait and someone named Switch. Moist thought he was going to get Bait but apparently they pulled a bait and switch on him.
Did that help?
newcj | July 23, 05:50 CET
Thanks for answering! :)
korkster | July 23, 06:11 CET
This, IMO, is partly because the bloody Dutch speak English too well ! ;) Seriously, my parents have lived all over the world and generally pick up enough of the local lingo to get by but constantly complained that in the Netherlands (where they lived for 3 years) every time they went into a shop or restaurant and the staff heard their Scottish accents, they'd immediately switch over to basically flawless English thus depriving them of one of the key methods for learning a foreign language. I mean, that's just plain inconsiderate ;).
(you might scrape by reading Dutch if you speak German well korkster. And not much is really a combination of X and Finnish BTW, Finnish is a so-called language isolate i.e. it's not part of the Indo-European family that nearly all European languages are in - it's closest to Estonian and Hungarian)
Saje | July 23, 09:27 CET
Saje: yeah, we do do that. I wouldn't say the English of the Dutch is flawless, though (I get sympathy-shame when I hear Dutch accents or typical Dutch mistakes, for instance). Although, yes, we do pretty much all at least speak English a little. And the main reason for that is: subtitled television and movies. Everyone here gets 50%-or-more of their entertainment in English, so they're bound to pick up the language eventually (and also: we start getting English lessons at quite an early age). And for people doing university it's even worse: pretty much all our books are in English (because, well, who's going to write a treatise on radiation transport in Dutch for the 100-or-so students a year who need it - if that - in the entire country ;)) and some of our courses are as well.
I myself spoke and understood English when I was, well, five, I think, simply from watching English cartoons (on Sky channel's 'Fun Factory', which we received over here when I was young). But then I only learned how to write in English when I was, oh, 13 or so, so my written English has always been slightly worse than my spoken English.
Dr. Horrible <-- see, I'm on-topic!
GVH | July 23, 13:34 CET
Saje | July 23, 13:39 CET
GVH | July 23, 13:34 CET
I guess when I say "basically flawless English" i'm very much comparing it to my entirely flawful Dutch ;).
Saje | July 23, 13:39 CET
I've never been to Holland, but the Dutch speakers I've met in the USA, whether from Curacao or Holland, have always had the best American accents of any group of people for whom English as a second language. Their grammar blended in pretty well too. I always figured it had to do with the closeness of the roots of English and Dutch. They both come from German, but German speakers seem to have a much harder time losing their accent than Dutch speakers.
BTW, the songs from Dr. Horrible have been going through my head a lot. Penny's song is really stuck even though it is not my favorite at all.
I wonder if they will ever let us know who wrote which songs.
newcj | July 23, 15:10 CET
Penny's association with Captain Hammer, not Dr. Horrible, caused her demise. If Hammer hadn't embarrassed her with his bragging about the sex they'd had, she wouldn't have been where she was in the room--closer to where the shrapnel spray from the death ray explosion ultimately landed. Also, Dr. Horrible's moment of hesitation on following through to pull the death ray trigger allowed Hammer to live because it resulted in the death ray losing power. But Captain Hammer, after all, ignored Dr. Horrible's plea not to pull the trigger when, at that point, Dr. Horrible was clearly defeated and at Hammer's mercy. The backlash, literally, of Hammer's unthinking act of revenge and domination -- enforcing "right" -- directly resulted in Penny's death.
IMHO, Hammer, the "good guy" was sort of disconnected from everyday life and Penny's death has made him human, taught him the meaning of pain, and brought him down to earth; flip side, Penny's death removed Dr. Horrible's last tenuous connection to humanity and goodness. It's always the little people who get squished in the big fight between good and evil!
sphinx | July 23, 22:04 CET
hacksaway | July 23, 22:38 CET
I wonder how many times Dr. Horrible has pointed a raygun at Captain Hammer and had nothing happen.
The Anti-Muscle raygun only makes a clicking sound. http://www.myspace.com/darkhorsepresents?issuenum=12&storynum=2 Captain Hammer grabs it and says "What does this one not do?"
So how many times has this happened before.
Then the Freeze ray didn't work at the SuperHero Memorial Bridge. Took too long to warm up...that would look like another non-working raygun.
Captain Hammer is singing his song when he is hit by the Freeze Raygun. He unfreezes and notices that Dr. Horrible has snuck up on him.
Notice how Captain Hammer finishes his song "Way". Probably doesn't even know he was frozen, didn't even see the Freeze raygun at all and therefore could not realize that one of Dr. Horrible's rayguns had actually worked.
So why should he think that Dr. Horrible's Death raygun would work. And he certainly couldn't know that it would blow up. I was really surprised that he didn't hold the raygun backwards.
Anonymous1 | July 24, 04:24 CET
Dr. Horrible is the only thing I've ever bought on iTunes.
m'cookies actual | July 24, 04:34 CET
[ edited by hacksaway on 2008-07-24 04:53 ]
hacksaway | July 24, 04:35 CET
It's not like Hammer aspires to get into the Evil League of Evil--but because he's a superhero, he acts quickly w/o giving things much thought.
From his viewpoint, he doesn't have to think hard about his choices. He's Captain Hammer, the good guy, and he knows he's always right. What's to think about? Penny's death was an unforeseeable outcome of his actions, but I think he expected--or, at least hoped--to kill Dr. Horrible.
Pointing the death ray at Dr. Horrible, Captain Hammer says:
"Let's see if this one works any better than the others. I don't have time for your warnings. You give my regards to St. Peter, or whoever has his job but in hell!"
[ edited by sphinx on 2008-07-24 07:25 ]
[ edited by sphinx on 2008-07-24 14:35 ]
sphinx | July 24, 07:24 CET
Is there anywhere I can buy a poster of NPH on a unicorn? It would truly make me very happy to see that on my wall.
As I was typing this post, I did a quick search, and it is actually poster art (which I didn't know), but I still can't find the actual poster. I've tried eBay and AllPosters...
ETA: Oh, fucking awesome, eBay.com came through, and I now have a 11'' x 17'' poster on its way to me. Only $10 toooooo (shipping cost more). I'm sorry, I don't know why this makes me so happy.
Is swearing allowed here..? I've never thought about it before.
ETA2: Hahha, got my h5 and h1 tags mixed up. Ahh.. Probably should've been using a font tag or something anyway.
[ edited by MattK on 2008-07-25 02:21 ]
MattK | July 25, 01:31 CET
While you're at it, see if you can find me a picture of Felicia Day riding a unicow (which is not as far fetched as it sounds).
AlanD | July 25, 02:17 CET
It would be pretty damn sweet if Conflict Diamond is the dude doing the robot dance at the end. I hadn't connected them until now. Actually nothing connects them at all except for my wish that they be the same person. Because it takes a true badass to get down in a robotic fashion at an evil social event. Whoever he is, he is secure in his evilness.
Sunfire | July 25, 02:27 CET
Even more awesome is that the top of the poster has these exact words "What would NPH do?" I got the smaller poster because (aside from cost) I can actually frame it, which is odd, I know... I think I might actually quite enjoy the looks of befuddlement on my friends' faces when they see it.
As for unicows, I find it an interesting concept, mostly because it implies (from unicorn) that an animal called a corn exists, perhaps corn should now be synonymous with horse. "I want to go corn riding today." "Oh, are you watching corn races?" "I know a good corn to place a bet on." Honestly, there could be hours of fun.
(I should probably go to bed now before I make any other impulse purchases or strange comments out of tiredness.)
[ edited by MattK on 2008-07-25 02:28 ]
MattK | July 25, 02:27 CET
AlanD | July 25, 04:41 CET
NYPinTA | July 25, 05:29 CET
QingTing | July 26, 14:37 CET
Nice take on Dr. Horrible, sphinx, and nice counter hacksaway. I actually agree on both points. It's nice because based on the context of the piece, there could be arguments for both.
And I know I promised an analysis of the whole score of Dr. Horrible, but Comic-Con got in the way last week. When I do get to it, none may be following. But for those die-hards out there *cough* GVH *cough*, I swear I'll tell the tale. The more I think about it, though, the more I wonder if there's any logical thought on it.
And I totally can't get the songs out of my head. Still.
korkster | July 29, 21:31 CET
I have not been able to get the songs out of my head either. Actually, I was singing 'A Man's Gotta Do' - without really noticing it - after my volleyball training this week and people asked me what the hell I was singing. Two more converts right there (I love my friends, sometimes. In the sense of pretty much always, really. Apart from the few who dislike everything Joss Whedon does. And I only dislike them on the rare occasions we discuss His Purpleliciousness ;)).
GVH | July 31, 02:22 CET
Speaking of Evil, and how the other thread has been washed away off the main page... have you figured out your Evil character yet?
Was sporting my Horrible shirt today. Got some looksies, but they were from my not-hip co-workers who have grandchildren. It was a wasted opportunity, but my circle is small. I hope they make more shirts. With sayings. That would be rad.
ETA: Wow, they have TONS at Cafe Press. My favorite is "I do the weird stuff for Captain Hammer". And the Australia. And Penny's colored heart on black. Too cool. If only the monies were going to DHSAB, I'd hop on them.
[ edited by korkster on 2008-07-31 04:42 ]
korkster | July 31, 04:39 CET
NYPinTA | July 31, 04:46 CET
The One True b!X | July 31, 04:52 CET
Yeah, bix, that made me spit out turkey. Love it. Plus the "I do the Weird Stuff with Moist", Penny's colored heart shirt (it's pretty), the Australia one (ha!)... the Hammer pictures make me wonder... they don't really look like a hammer...
I wish they got monies from them. They deserve it, and then I would buy them. Poor Doctors Horrible, being ripped off and all. :(
korkster | July 31, 05:16 CET
AlanD | July 31, 06:25 CET
I do love those shirts (although, agreed, the ones that look like the official ones? Not nice). That australia one is hilarious. If I had been a girl, I'd have bought it.
GVH | July 31, 14:54 CET
korkster | July 31, 23:31 CET
ETA: on a side-note, I added Dr. Horrible to criticker.com, the movie's entry can be found here, although I did have to e-mail the editor to convince them to add it (they add short movies, but IMDB had this wrongly classified as a tv-series, so they auto-declined my addition request at first). Anyone else frequent that site? It's a fun way to kill some time, ranking massive amounts of movies (I've currently ranked almost 1000 ;))
[ edited by GVH on 2008-08-01 21:02 ]
GVH | August 01, 20:58 CET
I was Twittered by Doctor Horrible that they are making more designs for the shirts, which should be out soon, along with the soundtrack. When the new shirts come out, we'll be able to get them at Jinx. Be patient. ;)
korkster | August 02, 08:08 CET
Simon | February 15, 00:44 CET