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July 19 2008

Doctor Horrible Act III (The Big Finale) is Live. Check out the finale and then come back here to talk it!

This video is not available at this site?

ETA: Only in Firefox on a Mac; Safari seems ok.

[ edited by karosurly on 2008-07-19 05:03 ]
It's working fine for me.

And it's loading now. Egads, I'm excited.
Nathan: "They say it's better the second time
They say you get to do the weird stuff."

Groupies: "We do the weird stuff!"

Ah, reunion of Mustard Man and Parking/Underwear Lady. Gotta love Fury and Noxon.
Deltoids of compassion!
I love David Fury

"next up, who's gay!"
Well, now we can be sure Joss was involved ;) Kidding! You'll see what I mean.
Oh my god... the ending.
Yeah, that's what I meant.
I'm having a hard time closing my mouth right now.
So sad...yet so fantastic.
That ending was interesting, though now I'm confused. Deeply confused.
No! No! No! No!

Fantastic. But what zeitgeist said. The pathos. Oh, the pathos. "A thing." The....you'll see. It was so funny and great and tuneful and then, oh then. What a gut punch.

I'm recovering, so I'm a little woozy, but was that Maurissa playing one of the groupies? If so, two things: (1) she's got a great voice and can act!, (2) she's adorable.

[ edited by phlebotinin on 2008-07-19 05:18 ]
I should not have been surprised by the ending... and yet - *shock*

:( *tears*
Um. Wow.

Not very articulate, but it's about all I can muster right about now.

(Um...er...I'm not crying...)

[ edited by NikkiSixx on 2008-07-19 05:17 ]
OMG.Wow.That was unexpected. and also not.I did love the ending. sort of. very conflicting emotions. reminds me of that Rolling Stones song.'You can't always get what you want...' only it's the opposite.He got what he wanted, not what he needed.It very nearly made me cry.
I knew it! I knew he couldn't write anything without doing that. I knew it.

Wow. I'm sort of in shock.

I have no idea how I feel about this.

I mean...awesomely written/acted, etc., but...oh my god.
Oh, of course that's where that was going. Very dark. Not sure whether I liked it yet. Musically, Act II was my favorite.
Oh dear.
Oh my god . . . Just, just, oh my god . . .

(in an entirely stupendous way)
WOW...

It was great to see the "Grr Argh" at the end.
Yes, that was me yelling "Awww!! Awwww, maaaaan!!!!"
Oh...My...God.
That was heartbreakingly, hysterically awesome.
By the way, I am a big fan of Dark...and I shouldn't've been as surprised as I was.
But, DAMN...that rocked.
(And, Callyscat, I too am having a hard time closing my mouth right now.)

Oh, and one more thing: When's the frackin' DVD coming out???!!!

[ edited by AmazonGirl on 2008-07-19 05:22 ]

[ edited by AmazonGirl on 2008-07-19 05:22 ]
I didn't expect that. The humor rating dropped and the drama rating skyrocketed. *sigh* I didn't much care for Act III, but it's over now and I still love Act I and Act II.
Yeah and what that person above said and wow and yeah...So good and yet so painful and so, well, Joss.
Sort of stunned right now...I really should have called it since all of his work is like this. This just seemed so happy for a while...

Definitely brilliant although i will have to watch it another time or two for it to sink in. Greak work Joss!
So it's an origin story after all.
OH HOLY HORRIBLENESS! I was not expecting that at all (though track record >>>> meet should'a known). Makes total sense and boy do I appreciate an untraditional ending. Everyone involved, thank you immensely. You've tripped the Light Fandango in my heart!! Marti and David, so wonderful to see you guys perform again. Neil, you are an amazing performer; I can't say it enough times.

[ edited by Tonya J on 2008-07-19 05:21 ]
My throat is all lumpy. How amazing is that? 40 minutes with these characters and that's all it took. Major lump.
Oh. My. God.

That wasn't funny at all. It was sad. Really sad. And shocking. And moving. And sad.

Sorry. Coherent sentences are still beyond me.
Wow.

I had a suspicion it would end like this, but I wasn't too sure.

I'm very sad right now. The whole thing is fantastic, it's just really depressing.

I mean, it was all funny and goofy, and I was laughing, and then Joss just suddenly ripped my heart out. It was all very painful and graphic.
one of the line in the opening song ...

... There is no happy ending ...

sigh.
Bwuh.

Someone maternal!

[ edited by theonetruebix on 2008-07-19 05:21 ]
*crying now*

I really wish I wasn't right about the death ray or craft services.

Was it real? I'm in shock. My world is up-side-down and inside out. Beautiful punch, confused a little, don't want it to be true.
ARRRRGH! I wish I hadn't called the ending, but I did. :( Sadness.
Wow that got real dark, real fast. Not even remotely what I was expecting, but now I can't imagine how it could have ended any other way.
Oh, and did I mention how much I loved it?
I loved Moist's desperate attempts to hang on to the bank loot.

ETA - Also, exactly how much evil could the Pink Pugilist perpetrate, really?

[ edited by napua on 2008-07-19 05:27 ]
Well. I was completely and utterly wrong. Should've known.

How can anyone kill Felicia Day?? It's impossible! There must be a sequel in which it's revealed that she has invincibility powers. Heh.

Wow. Will have to digest.
Who was that guy in the pink with Moist? Was it Switch? Moist getting a little superhero action on the side? ;)

Oh. My. God. I can't believe how shocked I am. But I just didn't expect it to get so serious. Wow.

There so needs to be a sequel.
While I really enjoyed the act, I think my favourite part was seeing the Grr Argh at the end. That made me so happy.

I do have conflicting thoughts on the act. I think it's a really interesting way to develop the story and I think it was really well done, but, for some reason, it seemed to me to not really fit with the rest of the show. In terms of music, the second act was my favourite, then first, then third. I don't know... I just felt like something was missing.

That said, loved the comedy, loved seeing David, Marti, and apparently Drew G and Doug (I'll need to rewatch). Loved most of it.

Sorry for the odd ramble. I need to watch it again, in order to fully process.
Joss. We should expect this from you by now. And yet, we love you for winning our hearts, and then ripping them out. Who else but you in this 'verse can say that?

Three years without live-action Joss, and we still fall for every syllable - and always will.

*tears* damn you.... love you.... and always....thank you.
BTW, the Godfather closing door shot of the Evil League of Evil was pretty awesome. I didn't realize it until I mulled it over for a minute or two.

I do agree with jkaiderash about Act II being the best musically. Just a great overall show/episode/webisode?
Act II was the best, but this one was still pretty good. But what happened with the gun? Why did it explode?

Wait, I get it. The death ray needs work.

[ edited by Radaar on 2008-07-19 06:03 ]
Wow..that surprised me. And ending with the song. Neil did it brilliantly...I should have known. But wow.

I loved that Mutant Enemy got to do his grr argh thing, I have missed it.

Did anyone else notice the writers taht played the evil league of evil? Douge Petrie, Drew Goddard?
I did like the ending.sort of. I don't like Penny's fate but I like the Doctor's. Hey, can we mention what happened yet? It's kinda hard trying to talk about it in a spoiler-free way.
Wow, I didn't expect that but, this being Joss, I guess I should've. I loved that first song with the groupies. I seriously played it three times. "We have a problem with her!" But even better was the Elfmanesque song Dr. Horrible sang at the ceremony.
Sans toi, Penny, je suis en enfer.
Simply amazing. Definitely Joss's hand at work with the ending. While I absolutely loved the whole thing, Act II was my favorite.
It was very moving. I can breathe again, but I'm so depressed.

Good work, Dr. Horrible team. You ripped my heart out and stomped on it, and I loved every minute of it... until I saw the gaping hole in my chest.
It's Joss. I should've had the windows closed so the neighbors couldn't have heard the very loud "NNNOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!"

So. like. Wow. wow. really wow.
Wow. That was most excellent. Very dark.

I am looking forward to the soundtrack CD and DVD.
Wow. Joss and co. are Bad Horse. Evil. So very awesomely sad. You notice each Whedonverse ending gets bleaker and bleaker?

Need to see many more times to come to grips with all of it though.
I

was not expecting that? I obviously should have been, this is Joss we're talking about, and yet...

It was just...

Did that...

Gwuhznuh?!
Painfully beautiful and beautifully painful. Or something....
Dunno if that sounds lame, all I know is that I love it and it hurts.
***SPOILERS***
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That was nowhere close to getting tears out of me, maybe 'cause I just didn't connect to the characters on anything more than a superficial these-folks-are-funny-and-sweet way, but without getting heavily invested in 'em. I knew not to get too attatched, but if one of the main three had to bite it, would rather it be Penny than the two bringing the most comedy. And I'm not surprised it happened, though I would've rather had more fun and lighthearted evildoing. Save the pain for a sequel, y'know? Anyone else kinda feel that way? After the first and second (and I was perfectly fine with the awesome anger in the second one), I wanted more of that feeling.

Felicia Day had a sweet voice, is pretty, and I liked her speaking lines too, but...the show can still go on without her if they make more. That was a shitty death though, for her. And oh man, "Captain Hammer will save us"...ouch.

If it had just been Hammer's fault, cool, I could just hate him some more (though I love what he brings to the story and Nathan continues to rock), but it was Billy's fault almost entirely. Sure, Hammer provoked, but Billy's the one who decided to pursue villainhood and build a death ray and attempt to use it and yeah I realize the logic of the whole thing is sillyness, but if you're gonna go for drama that heavy, then the fans can take it seriously when it pertains to the dramatic parts.

[ edited by Kris on 2008-07-19 05:33 ]
We should have expected that ending. It's so Jossian. It's like the end of the civil war in the Marvel Universe.

I'm kind of in shock. Kind of in mourning. Definitely in awe.

(sniff!)
So, sudden gutpunching tragedy? Check. Mutant Enemy monster at the end? Check. David Fury and Marti Noxon being funny? Check.

The only thing it needed to make it a true Whedon creation was a girl in a box.
I think the third act was tremendous musically. You know, the sadness of this makes total sense. With Joss there are always consequences, aren't there?

Was that Drew Goddard in the wig at the Evil League of Evil table? Loved seeing Marti Noxon and David Fury as those ridiculous newscasters. I note that Ben Edlund is thanked in the closing credits. I wonder in what way he contributed.

And the thoroughbred of sin really was a horse!

Oh, so sad. I can't bring myself to watch it again immediately.

[ edited by phlebotinin on 2008-07-19 05:56 ]
There was a whole lot of yelling "Really??!!! REALLY????!!!" by me and the roommate. Unexpected, but expected. I had a feeling something very dramatic would have to happen to wrap things up in under 15 minutes. But I didn't expect THAT.
OMG.I guess I didn't want to think it wouldn't have a happy ending.

I'm still in shock like the rest of us. Maybe some coherence in the morning.
I'm actually having trouble breathing right now.
Who was that guy in the pink with Moist? Was it Switch? Moist getting a little superhero action on the side? ;)
Going by the credits, I think he was Pink Pumeller. Ha, I didn't realize one of the Evil League was Dead Bowie. I'll have to watch that again. :)
Curse you Joss Whedon!!! Why do you always have to break my heart?
I guessed it would go that way. But it was still a serious punch in the gut. Wow.
Oh, my. I wish I had been better prepared for that. Beautiful work, Joss and team. Thank you.
I don't want to watch it again. I don't want to get punched in the stomach again. It's a tragedy hidden in a comedy. It's Shakespearean in a way.

[ edited by crazygolfa on 2008-07-19 05:32 ]
I would like to point out that Doctor Horrible's time spent with a voice coach really payed off. That evil laugh was pitch perfect.
I feel horrible. I want to re-watch everything, but, knowing what I know, I'm afraid to.

Plus side, Nathan did a great job with his exit. And Felicia. And Neil.

I hate it. In the way that I love it. I can't cheer though.
I think Joss was channeling Stephen Sondheim when he wrote Dr. Horrible's last song. Wonderful!

(Oops, I meant the second-to-the-last song...)

[ edited by floofypooh on 2008-07-19 05:58 ]
She brought him frozen yogurt. Penny. :(

So evil. Evilest League of Evil. Could've at least given her another solo first. Wow.
It's hard to believe. I am totally shocked. It really was a horse.

As for that other thing, well yeah, it's Joss. I should have known it would either be that, or Penny jumping through the air doing karate kicks. Still, to end a musical comedy like that. The man bends genres and does not pull punches, that's for damned sure.
As I said at DoctorHorrible.net, real hate only happens when you care, but the worst things a person can do to others only happen when one doesn't care anymore.

All I can say: Don't let it end this way.

(Hey. That almost rhymed. Well... It rhymed, but it had no rhythm.)
Ditto. To all the above.
Joss you evil, evil bastard!!!!! I am really starting to believe that Joss is a member of the the Evil league of Evil! I fall for it every time.

It was Brilliant, just Brilliant I Loved it. I'm going to have to watch it over and over now, bring on the DVD I want to purchase it now.

Great stuff Whedon brothers, Congratulations!
Je règne en enfer.

Fucking brilliant. Really, truly.
I think Joss was channeling Stephen Sondheim when he wrote Dr. Horrible's last song. Wonderful!

floofypooh | July 19, 05:32 CET:


Well, if you have to channel anyone, why not Sondheim?
(I think I'll go watch Sweeney Todd now.)

[ edited by AmazonGirl on 2008-07-19 05:37 ]
i too thought that might happen ... oh well I just have to hope ...
The music reminded me a lot of the soundtrack from ASH's REPO! The Genetic Opera -- dark & foreboding.

One song in the middle was incredibly Sondheimesque -- I assume Joss wrote that one since he's such a huge Sondheim fan. The opening song seemed less like a musical... I'm wonding if Jed wrote that one?

At the risk of blasphemy, I'll say I was somewhat disappointed by Act III. Acts I and II were so lighthearted and tongue-in-cheek, but Act III didn't have that air of lightness. I'm all for broodiness in other Joss works like BtVS, Angel, etc., but Dr. Horrible seemed to be a more fun piece... until Act III.
Yeah, the evil laugh was dead on. And his freeze ray really did work. And he mad it to the evil league of evil.

You know they're going to hold college courses on this mushortio alone.

I loved the music. Want to watch again, but I'm not ready. Makes it harder to choose a t-shirt.

Honestly, I liked Nathan's song. Sure, they were sheep, but he seemed to come to a little bit of a realization of helping people... he grew in his own way.

Craft services! *said in anger*
In an interview, Felicia Day was asked if given the opportunity, would she like to be involved in any potential sequel of Doctor Horrible.

Her response was, "Yes, please. I’ll do craft service if they need it!"

Now I understand what she meant! :^(
um, wow. That was super harsh... and depressing... and depressing. Did I mention I'm really depressed right now? I kept waiting for there to be an extra scene after the credits with a little redemption or hope or anything... but nope (except for the grrr arrgh! yay!)
Not sure how if I like it yet, maybe I need a few more viewings.
I can't lie though, I'm disappointed. I think Act II was my favorite, definitely.

EDIT: Update: So I watched again and really after thinking, it really couldn't have ended any other way. It was poignant and perfect. I think I was sucked into the happy-slappy disney-esque quality of the musical-ness of the first 2 acts to remember this is Joss and it has to be Joss-y. It caught me off guard and I freaked out a little bit. Who would have thought your typical supervillain-musical would give you so much upon which to ponder and reflect?
In the end, I loved it. LOVED IT!! And I want to thank Joss & co and the cast and crew for their numerous talents!! THANKS!

[ edited by Linnea1928 on 2008-07-19 06:01 ]
Wow, should have expected that, but didn't.
She also, FWIW, finds a way to mention craft services in almost every interview she does. That's actually why I didn't really buy into what people were saying that comment indicated.

Silly me!
Balls! That's all I can add.
I never learn...I should have known...ugh.
Thank you. That was awesome. So funny.
I knew it would end with Penny dying, but still that last 5 seconds was gut wrenching. That's the thing with Whedon, you think you know what's to come, but it's the delivery that will get you every single time. The Actors were just fantastic.
That was honestly just amazing and the best ever!!

I so loved this and I want more and I don't care how you un-kill Penny, just get her back and make more and more and more of this. No, not a Broadway musical trapped in New York.. maybe a full length feature dvd musical... something that the whole world can enjoy.

Thank you so much for the wonderful adventure. Much love to all the Whedons and Cos and the Actors and everyone.
Kisses
Hey,people come back from the dead all the time in the Whedon-verse.One can always hope.
Fabulous! It was inexplicably unexpected. There is no reason why it should be unexpected, but that Joss is the master at the set up. Truly brilliant at getting me to bite the shiny red apple. Loved every gut wrenching moment.

Thanks J,J,M and Z!

And can the Emmy voters just watch this instead and just give NPH the damn award already?. Sheesh!
First act: Great.
Second act: Better.
Third act: Disappointing.

Overall: Good...but...just good.
Ouch. That was a painful ending... Right now I kind of hate Act III. Will have to wait and see if my feelings change. Thinking we might all need some group therapy to work through this...
Wow. Assuming that it was Joss's, rather than Jed or Maurissa's, hand in that end, that's his first truly tragic denouement, isn't it? I think it was bleak and inevitable (but yet I didn't see it coming) and magnificent. One more fluffy ep would have left us with a little too much sweetness, and not so much to ponder on. And I agree with phleb, the music in this Act was gorgeous. Loved the multiplicity of parts in "So They Say" - the "Tonight" (or "Walk Through the Fire") of Dr. H. Loved loved the final number.

Then again, I'm a bugger for downbeat endings.
Okay. I'd like to ask really nicely for a sequel...
I'm all for therapy.Between Joss and Rusty,they've broken my heart too many times to count.
Wow, I wasn't expecting quite the dark turn, although I knew from Act I that someone wasn't going to survive. But, if the story is to live on in any other incarnations, it had to be Penny.

And I, too, heard a good bit of Sondheim influence.

(I liked that Bad Horse's real name -- if one can believe the credits -- was Dobber.)
You know, maybe someone who reacts as poorly as I do to character death should have picked a different auteur to worship? And yet I keep coming back...

In a thematic, story sense it worked perfectly. Thinking back on the whole thing, the ending seems entirely inevitable. But it's hard to remember that when it still feels kinda like you took a blow to the chest :(

It's important to note that nothing I said above will in any way dissuade me from wanting a soundtrack, DVD, and sequel, right now this minute! See how he/they get me?
Very good material, brilliantly executed. especially Dr. Horrible. Neil Patrick Harris was perfectly cast and didn't miss a step.
I love that Doug Petrie and Drew Goddard both were in the ELE - and that Jonathan Reilly got a role - well played sir!
She brought him frozen yogurt. Penny. :(

Frak me, hacksaway. I didn't even see this the first time through.
I am going to have faith in Joss & co. because I love and they are most deserving of that love. I am hoping beyond all hopes that this is just the "how" of Dr. Horrible's story. People always want to know how someone could be evil, and now we know how Billy Buddy did. I mean, is there anyone here who is unclear right now how this all came to be? And, really, do you think that he is still not just a "poseur in a parka" so to speak? He hasn't overtly done ANYthing. He's just kind of ridden the wave of a horrible mistake. I have no doubt that more will be revealed in either further web content or in comic book form. We all just have to be patient. And trust. And hope.

Please, Joss? Just one happy ending?
And it's plain to see, depression inside of me, is on the riiiiiise. :'(
Wow...

I sent Felicia a message that pretty much sums up my thoughts right now...Joss clearly has issues with dirt on the carpets, because he's always yanking the rug out from under us...

As one of the little people (crew guys) who got hit really hard by the WGA strike, I have to give props for doing something like this. If he wanted to make a statement, this is the way to do it. No real studio involvement? Check. Low budget? Done. Debuting it independenlty on a fledgling medium and focusing on a less-than-mainstream genre? Gutsy and with gusto.

Best of all? It looks and plays as well as anything produced on TV.

There is a reason Joss is up there on a pedestal. Neil, Nathan, Felicia...all heroes to New Media.

Pardon me, I think I need to go watch it again...
Anyone else already playing the how-will-the-sequel-work game?

[ edited by zeitgeist -signature removed- on 2008-07-19 05:52 ]
I think we can all agree that Bad Horse stole the show in Act III.
Lots of guest appearances here, like Drew Goddard and of course, David Fury and Marti Noxon.

Ok, but other than that, I'm speechless. Somehow I'll hold off until I can purchase this on iTunes in the morning. Um, something else incoherent. Wow.
I'm way too sad to comment anything.
witaria said:
"You notice each Whedonverse ending gets bleaker and bleaker?"

Do you mean as far as the characters dying, like a person ending ? Or the conclusions of each series/film ? I'm not gonna tackle every single character death (Fred's soul-destroyed-in-the-fires-of-Illyria's-rebirth I would say is the bleakest Whedon death. Given that souls exist beyond a shadow of a doubt in the Buffyverse, it means she was completely destroyed unless you consider Illyria's trace memories of her a form of surviving)...but as far as each project goes...

"Chosen" we got Anya dying (that hurt the most), a bunch of Potentials dying (okay "Millie" dying was depressing too), Spike dying (unless you knew ahead of time he was gonna be in Angel Season 5, then not quite so sad), and the end of the town...but otherwise it ended on a hopeful note.

The Angel finale (I can't believe I forget the ep title), I dunno if it should be included, since it wasn't the intended series finale (then again, the comics for both Buffyverse properties complicate this whole "ending" thing anyway). But since it's what we got...Lindsay dead, Lorne depressed and wanting to leave, Eve...who cares...I can't remember if anything else really sad happened...I dunno, I think Buffy's finale beats it for bleakness (c'mon, they would've beat that impending doom...apparently they did or are in the process of doing so, if you've read the Season 6 comic. I haven't).

Firefly had "Objects in Space", an episode full of hope, so no bleak there. Serenity counts as the proper/makeshift finale to that though, so yeah, you've got Book, Wash, and a whole lotta people dead...It did end on a life-goes-on hopeful not though, like Buffy.

Anya's death in Buffy gutted me, so I think that wins for personal bleakest series/movie finale (sure, she got 1000 years, but).

If we're including comics, objectively, Fray ended pretty bleakly as well. With the reveal of who killed Loo and the reveal about Urkonn...she was kinda left completely alone there at the end, with the exception of maybe her sister having her back.

I know Joss frequently switches tone/gears in many of his projects, but those are all dramas at their heart with comedic dosages. Dr. Horrible is comedy/nuttyness that evolved into a drama the more we saw of it, which...yeah, I just don't get as attatched so easily when it's presented that way.
Ok, you know what? I'm going to go totally against type here.

(and I'm assuming you've all seen it if you've gotten this far, but SPOILERS)

SCREW THAT.

I knew . . . I KNEW Joss was gonna kill off Penny. He ALWAYS kills off one of the beloved good guys. He doesn't NOT know how!! It's his ONLY PLOT TWIST.

I loved Angel and I would KILL (seriously, try me) to have more Firefly, so really, to anyone who might take exception to this little rant, I have all the love in the world for Mr. Whedon for creating wonderful worlds . . . but can't he write ONE THING with a gorram happy ending?! JUST ONE. This had it written all over it! Cute, spoofy, funny, sweet . . . it would have been lovely! But no, "One Trick" Whedon has to kill off the sweet, innocent, flawless homeless shelter girl to teach us the same lesson we learned in every other piece of work he's done.

Everyone who was surprised that she died: HOW? It's the same trick he pulled in Serenity. And three times in the last season of Angel. And how many times in Buffy! I would have been surprised if everyone LIVED . . . pleasantly surprised!

So, review: I loved this entire little online flick. Brilliant. Until the end. Then it got predictable. And then SUCKED.

Happily Ever After. TRY IT. Seriously.
@witeria

"You notice each Whedonverse ending gets bleaker and bleaker?"

Also, each Whedonverse thing gets shorter and shorter!

Buffy got 7 years...
Angel got 5....
Firefly got less than one, and a movie....
Dr. Horrible gof 45 minutes....

I just hope they don't say, cancel Dollhouse 15 minutes into the show. :-P
I had reservations about Act I (maybe because this thing has been building in my head for so long), but Act II won me - and Act III owns my soul.

The final shot - kills me dead. I fucking love it.
Dear Joss,

I know we shared some great times together. Like the "Objects in Space", "Doppelgangland" and more, but I think it's time we go our separate ways.

It's not you, it's me. I just can't take much more misery and heartache. It's just too much. You create such wonderful and truly engaging characters. I get attached to them, and then, you kill them. It's for my own good. It affects my sunny disposition.

Best of luck in the future,

crazygolfa


PS: You know I'm a sucker for punishment, when does Dollhouse begin.
Who is the weird sunglasses chick next to the Hammer Groupies in the audience at the unveiling?
Aw, Penny was totally looking for Billy in the laundromat when she realized Hammer did have a third layer of cheese.

Nightmare -- ha!

First time through I was devastated. Second time through I could only think of what comes next. There needs to be more to the story. This would act as a great setup to the story of Dr. Horrible and the Evil League of Evil. (Leading to his eventual, painful redemption of course.)

If I think of it as a prologue it doesn't hurt so much.

Oh, and I hate the homeless

ness problem, too.
*SPOILERS*

So...the end. I seem to be thinking that it returning to the blog at the end makes it feel to me as though it never happened. He's sans garb after all. I'm sure someone else can straighten me out on the subtleties I'm probably not picking up.
I knew he'd do that...just hoped he wouldn't, and here I am, heart broken into a million pieces, Jossed anyway. I physically shook through the second half of that act. Wow.

That said, I've turned quite a few people onto the series, and some of them have just been Jossed for the very first time.

[ edited by highandrandom on 2008-07-19 06:08 ]
I'm not overly thrilled with Act III. There's only so much my heart can take! I know I won't be watching it a second time for a while.

I loved Acts I and II, and this one seemed to be a disconnect with Act III somewhere. Where did all the lighthearted dialogue go? Usually I feel more balance, but I just felt depressed after watching.

Maybe once time passes and I watch the DVD, my opinion will change. I hope so.
Okay, was it just me that was thinking "You've got someone with a serious wound who won't survive without major surgery, use the freeze ray! Freeze her, get her to hospital where she can thaw out and be operated on!"

But then I remembered that this is Joss, and that would have been a cheap cop out.
Funny, zz9, I was thinking KILLING HER was a cop out. And yes, I was sharing your plan with the freeze ray.
The last minute or so, right after Penny's death, might be the very best thing in this entire trilogy of episodes. What a fabulous end. The song's themselves all seemed technically good, but didn't stand out strongly on the first viewing.

As for how the sequel will work, frankly, I don't think Penny's death really would hurt the main story at all if they made another one. She told Dr. Horrible in the second act that it's not that things get better, it's just that everything happens, and worse things happen than happen to you. That implacable, not optimism, than blind hope had to go if he was to be an actual villain.

The ending was good, and it didn't hit me in the gut as much as it did other people in this thread. Frankly the darker turn that was starting last act was more interesting than the high quality, but slight, comedy of act 1. Techincally, I have problems with how the final bit before Penny died was handled (I found it oddly muddled, and inevitable in a more writerly way than a firm dramatic one,) but his killing her, however accidently, was sound.

I don't have the same "downer" feeling as many people do when characters in these types of things die. Especially a character we've only watched for such a short time. But that's my two cents.

[ edited by rabid on 2008-07-19 05:56 ]
I thought people were joking when they predicted this ending. I actually had some bizarre notion that things would turn out sappy. Which would not have left me satisfied.

But this didn't leave me satisfied, either. Just very sad.

Which I guess is the point.

It felt like kind of a non sequitur. I think it will feel less like one, once I watch all three parts together. Which I absolutely do not have the resolve for tonight. Maybe Sunday. (I'm having a pretty pretty princess party tomorrow, and somehow I feel like watching this will not put me in the right mood for that.)
Thinking we might all need some group therapy to work through this...

witch_kat | July 19, 05:43 CET


What's all this we?
I'm perfectly fine with the ending, pain and all.
In fact, if it'd been a "happy" ending, I might've been kind of disappointed.
Look, Dr. Horrible is a villian. A low-rent, bargain basement villian--with a crush on a girl--but a villian none the less.
Capt Hammer is a "hero". He's a flat-out jackass, but he's still the "hero".
Dr Horrible is trying to get into the Evil League of Evil. Not the Salvation Army. And he's willing to do anything to get in.
He was going to kill Capt. Hammer, who kind of did deserve it, but still. Killing. To get into an elite Club.
In the end, Dr. Horrible got what he wanted. But a price had to be paid.
It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye.
I'm just sayin'.

[ edited by AmazonGirl on 2008-07-19 05:57 ]
I disagree Kris. I think tonally both BtVS and AtS were optimistic, if not upbeat, endings. Buffy's freed from her isolation and duty as the one Slayer (or so she thinks . . .), the First is vanquished for now, most of her people made it. There's a chance for rest and reflection.

Angel's going out (heh) swinging, the gang had their last good day, they're ready, and they're charging forward - momentum, positivity.

By contrast, nobody has what s/he wants at the end of Dr. H - Capt. Hammer's a basket case, Penny's dead, and Dr. H. had been made aware of the price he's paid for getting what he thought he wanted. That's bleak. And brilliant.
I'm with you, SNT, Brand New Day may be a fantastic show-stopper, Act-ender, but the score in Act III sounded to my ear much more layered and intricate. Act I was the honeymoon, Act II was the divorce, and Act III was "the great black pit" in more ways than one. There is no coincidence that Dr. H resembles Sweeney Todd. The plot and the music became progressively darker with each installment.
I love the fact that there's a reason Dr. H covers his eyes now. (The reason is the last thing you see in Act III.)
I think Joss was channeling Stephen Sondheim when he wrote Dr. Horrible's last song. Wonderful!

I just said the same thing to my son. It's like a song from "Sweeney Todd," or the witch's lament in "Into the Woods."
So. Basically what we have here is a story about someone who wants to control everything, and inadvertently kills his inspiration in the process.

Funny how we got THAT out of the writers' strike.



ahem.
Okay. I can understand the disappointment if you only watched it once. Having seen Acts I and II multiple times, I was expecting another giddy sunburst. And that's pretty much what this was up until Penny's death. I was totally shocked. I felt great sadness, and everything afterwards was something of a murky, depressing blur.

I immediately watched it again, knowing what was to happen, and the tonal change was not handled sloppily. It worked perfectly. I think people weren't initially approaching this as the vicious social commentary that it is, and that might account for some disappointment. I mean, this sucker cuts into society in a deep, deep way. It chastises the media, hero worshipers, people who aspire to empty positions, everyone who watches on the sidelines. I mean, no one is left unscathed by Dr. Horrible.

It is a brilliant work, and the best film of 2008. (Yes, I've seen The Dark Knight. I was not expecting Dr. Horrible to trump it, but...well, Joss has a funny way of getting around expectations.)

I really wanted Captain Hammer to die. He's the villain of the piece, and I can think of few villains more utterly loathsome.

But, hey, there were still hysterical moments. Basically anything with Captain Hammer was fried gold.

Oh, and I'll be transcribing the lyrics again. E-mail me if you want them.
Um... um... I don't love Act III. :(

Even without the massive jolt to the heart, it just didn't seem to pack the same kind of punch as the other acts. *shrugs* And Dobber (Bad Horse) didn't look very menacing. :P Nathan sung well, though. :D

*sits in silence*
For those who think the events in act 3 came out of nowhere: The person above who called it an origin story is right on. If you think of it like that, that this is the story of how Dr. Horrible becomes so evil, it all makes sense. It's sad to lose Penny, because I really liked her. But I loved seeing Dr. Horrible's reaction to it, how something died inside him and his heart turned all black inside. I could read that all in his eyes, and it was amazing.

I love it. Now I want a sequel.
He's sans garb after all.

I don't think that means it never happened. I think it means that he got everything he supposedly wanted, he's a feared and celebrated supervillain, but it's all basically an act now, one that he's trapped himself in.

That last shot is who he really is now, hence the lack of villain garb.
Marvelous. I'm sure that all those who doubted Joss would make this dark are sadly celebrating, but it was a great ending. A great cliffhanger ending. I need resolution! When's the sequel coming out? :)
I'll hope for a sequel, and Doctor Horrible figuring a way to raise Penny from the dead.... (I can always hope). *sob*

But there is no question that I loved this, seriously loved Loved LOVED this! And I will have to buy the DVD for everyone I know!

Thank you Joss & friends!
zz9,I thought the same thing. But that wasn't going to happen.:(.
Having watched a second time, the ending does seem fitting. Dr Horrible(I almost called him The Doctor...) got what he wanted. and like many people before him, he realized it wasn't what he hoped. but he can't go back. It's a great setup for a sequel as well. I'll be patiently (ok,not so much) waiting.
Is anybody else really kinda dreading Dollhouse right about now?
Who was Drew Goddard there? I don't think I've ever seen his face...

And man, I'm really really sad...like, Anya/Wash/Joyce's death sad.
Is anybody else really kinda dreading Dollhouse right about now?

To the contrary.
I get it as a parable of the strike, etc., etc., but as it stands Act I was good, Act II was fantastic and Act III happened. I've watched and rewatched and rewatched again and though I find a lot to enjoy, I don't love where it went. It makes perfect sense as an origin story, sure, and I don't think that it came out of left field at all, but that doesn't mean I have to love it. Which is a good thing, cause I don't.

ETA: That will probably come later.
That last shot is who he really is now, hence the lack of villain garb.

That last shot was perfect. Almost the best moment in the entire thing. Amazing.
I think Act 2's score and escalating darkness lead into this act pretty well. I don't think it's a jarring tonal shift, merely a story which starts light and ends up in a dark place, which isn't that uncommon.

Both Amazongirl and UnpluggedCrazy said different aspects of how I feel more eloquently than I could. I think that a work with some honest to god meaning to it will last longer than if it ended happily for Dr.Horrible. Penny in a lot of ways to me felt like an archetype. A combination of the comicbook cliche model girlfriend and a almost unrealisticly hope filled optimist. If Dr.Horrible had given up his quest to make it as a villain to end up with her, I don't really know what the story would have been about dramatically.
maxsummers, it feels like Wash to me. Which is odd, as I love Wash, and I only like Penny pretty well.
Ooohh...yeah! What Casira said.
So. Basically what we have here is a story about someone who wants to control everything, and inadvertently kills his inspiration in the process.

Funny how we got THAT out of the writers' strike.

Also, the freeze ray died, that's how Captain Hammer got free.
And the other members of the Evil League of Evil: Professor Normal, Fake Thomas Jefferson, Tie-Die, Jed Whedon as Dead Bowie, Fury Leika, Snake Bite, and Bad Horse.
Is anybody else really kinda dreading Dollhouse right about now?

Nah, Dollhouse is going to be all hugs and puppies, laugh a minute, happy-fest. Trust me.


/Or maybe not...
See, that's the brilliant thing about the ending. Horrible gets everything he says he wanted, and he gets it without actually killing anyone -- it's a backfire from Captain Hammer, the "hero" who _was_ willing to kill -- but pays the horrible price.

Come on, this is a musical about a supervillain. There are only two possible endings. It ends badly for him, or it ends well for him, which is bad, because he's a villain.

Joss chose C, all of the above. Brilliant. Heartbreaking. Very Joss.
Well,since when do people do that, really? Give up your life's quest, dream, to be with the one you love?
Some may,eventually, after years and years of fight and suffering, but it is still rare.I wonder if Penny would've accepted Billy knowing his alter ego was Dr Horrible.
I think I need to watch em all in a row to get the impact right. I mean, I watched the first several times, the second several times, and listened to the music nonstop since Tuesday morning. I was used to it being mostly happy and cheerful, with even the sad parts fun to listen to, and then this.
man


MAN!

i mean, nomatter how much you say "it's joss, of COURSE something like that's gonna happen", its still a shock and horror. not sure how i feel about ti yet; act 2 was better musicly, but man...
That last shot is who he really is now, hence the lack of villain garb.

That last shot was perfect. Almost the best moment in the entire thing. Amazing.

palehorse | July 19, 06:05 CET


I liked his new Evil League of Evil duds.
No more white. He's lost his "virginity". The red coat and black gloves were a spot-on choice.
Someone here mentioned that it's an origin story. Absolutely.
And that last shot of him on his "Blog" was heartbreaking.
Huh. That got a "oh man", but no great strife. I hope Dr. Horrible rests on his laurels though, if Moist can keep hold of the loot.

Bad Horse was so bad.
God, I love this. The more I watch it and let it sink in, the more I love it. Kudos to the whole team. Stunning, in my opinion.

Penny bringing the frozen yogurts to the laundromat, waiting for Billy Buddy, who never comes. It just kills me.
I pity anyone who procured a white lab coat for a Comic-Con Dr. Horrible costume before seeing his transformation Act III. And on another costume-related topic: Exactly when does Captain Hammer wear his sweater vest? He wore his t-shirt to the dedication ceremony and IMO would be more prone to sweaters after his transformation than before.

The Hammer groupies transformation is also confusing to me. Sure, they had a problem with Penny. But I took that to be envy. But their becoming Dr. Hammer groupies evokes a fickle fandom connotation I wouldn't associate with the whedonverse.
Can someone confirm something to me? Dr Horrible knows the weapon's going to backfire, right? It's all fritzy and he looks at it before he says "Don't"? I've rewatched that bit a few times now and I'm still not totally sure.
kiba, strange isn't it? I did not LOVE Wash as much as others, but considering how long we had to know and love Penny, is strange how much her death makes me sad.

And the last scene is just killing me.
@Batman1016
Happily ever after? Find such fairytles in your local library under L for Lies :)

You know that Whedon will always send you on a rollarcoaster. Otherwise it's just not worth it.

There's no way Whedon would let this be the end. He knows that he has created a Horrible Horrible monster and there's money to be made and rabid fans are rabid.
electricspacegirl said:

But I loved seeing Dr. Horrible's reaction to it, how something died inside him and his heart turned all black inside. I could read that all in his eyes, and it was amazing.


Yes. When the paramedics carted off Penny and he sang, "I'm fine," it gave me the shivers.
OK, I'm better now. Watched it again and I enjoyed it much more thoroughly. I just don't think I can compare it to the other two acts, though. And really, why should I? I think I'm just going to have to start thinking about this as a full movie, rather than a mini-series. How often do I rank my favourite acts in movies? Precisely.

Loved the last bit in the Evil League of Evil Headquarters. And, of course, the final shot of the blog.

Sigh.
Not the biggest fan of most resurrections done in comics, TV, and film, but if they are gonna bring Penny back some day down the road...she's a red head and looks more than a little like she could be related to Famke Janssen, the actor who played Jean Grey/Phoenix in the X-Men films. Visually, she's almost pre-destined for it in a superhero/villain movie like this.

UnpluggedCrazy said:
"I think people weren't initially approaching this as the vicious social commentary that it is, and that might account for some disappointment. I mean, this sucker cuts into society in a deep, deep way. It chastises the media, hero worshipers, people who aspire to empty positions, everyone who watches on the sidelines. I mean, no one is left unscathed by Dr. Horrible."

I loved that aspect of it throughout all three acts, I'm sure it'll continue if they do sequels. They set it up nice with Billy blogging about it and hating on "the status quo", so it's in the story too beyond just the omniscient storytellers (brothers Whedon) telling us what they think, very cool.

I just think it could've ended slightly differently and still been effective. I liked it a lot though. Acts 1 and 2 are untouchable and I loved the humor of Act 3 as well in addition to a couple of the songs.
Jed Whedon as Dead Bowie

I'm curious as to what 'Dead Bowie's' evil villain claim to fame would be. Fooling people into believing that he's really David Bowie and then charging them for autographs and photos?
Oh, Joss, you're breaking my heart! I can understand why some people may be really upset and pissed off and now hate the whole thing, but... I get it, I really do. There is no way it could have a "happy" ending and still be so powerful. It's the ache that makes it great, the "if you just gave up this evil stuff and did your laundry you could sit and have fro yo and get the girl!!!", and it makes me feel really good to think of it as an origin story. I've always felt that in the whedonverse, everyone is justified in their own way, even the villains' motives can be understood. And there's no way Dr. Horrible could be so horrible if he was dating a sweet, homeless-loving girl on the side.
So, yes, it was incredibly sad, and shocking, and Act III was not so lighthearted, but now that I can watch it all as one, I really do love it.
Also, Nathan is HI-larious! and NPH gives me chills like no other. Yikes...
Ok, I just want to point out, Billy's last name isn't Buddy, so no need to call him that or capitalize it. The best part of Act III is the credit that shows Joss wasn't one of the onscreen Bad Horse Chorus. Can we put that one to bed now?
That last shot was perfect. Almost the best moment in the entire thing. Amazing.

Absolutely the best moment of the entire thing - and it makes me forgive Act I for being a bit bloated and not terribly engaging to me. This last moment gives the whole story depth - and the songs in Act III are probably the best of the whole series.

When does the DVD come out?
I pity anyone who procured a white lab coat for a Comic-Con Dr. Horrible costume before seeing his transformation Act III.

Heh, I said much the same thing on Twitter a bit ago. All those poor cosplayers scrambling now.

Can someone confirm something to me? Dr Horrible knows the weapon's going to backfire, right?

He does appear to be trying to warn Hammer, yeah.
zeitgeist, who thinks his last name is Buddy?
ok,
here's my 2 cents before i go off and have a good cry

1, I SHOULD"VE known!!! Jenny Calander, joyce, anya, fred, spike, tara, walsh, the list is endless of people we've loved then lost. (doesn;t make this easier)

2. Yes i know it fits in well with the story, to make him a REAL villan not just a wanna be joss needed to kill his soul. God knows i've seen it happen at work, people work so hard to become surgeons at the cost of their family, then they loose everything they actually care about and have nothing but their career so they pour themselves into that, so i get him now pouring himself into what;s left (still not any easier)

3. i'm still sad :( damn you whedon you always leave me in this sate

4. how are we going to have sing-a-longs with an ending like that???

ok i'm off to have a good cry, then some frozen yougurt (which i've been craving since act 2 aired). then i might attempt a rewatch if i'm not still in shock
Music wasn't as good this act. Seemed weaker, less powerful, despite beautiful harmonies. But then *awaits the angry remarks* I didn't really like Felicia's voice, it kinda irritated me, despite the fact that her pitch was perfectly fine.

I want that red lab coat.

Loved the grr argh at the end. And why wouldn't they leave things open? Leaves them with a world of opportunity to pursue if it's as successful as I think it has been. *waits for international itunes so I can pay them their dues, literally*
Joss should have written Revenge of the Sith, duh?
Wash dies.
Billy Buddy... Billy Budd anyone? Melville? Okay -- go back and watch it again. I was not happy the first time round (whole rug pulling thing and so forth), but I appreciated it more the second time. Lovin' the music! And the tortured Doc. Looking forward to a possible sequel.... Glad to see the Grr Arrgh in there.... Thank you Dr Horrible Team! Thank you Evil Lair guy! Thank you Marti Noxon, Doug Petrie, and Drew Goddard for coming out for the team! "It's a good day to be homeless!"
phleb - was just saying that as I keep seeing it capitalized as Billy Buddy, when what Penny was singing was "Billy, buddy". You don't want IMDB changing his name to Billy Buddy, do you? :)
I wonder how people will feel once they see this all as one big movie on a DVD a few months from now. I think it will be a different reaction no matter what side of the fence we are on. Right now we can sit down and watch all three acts in a row, but they are etched in our minds as three distinct things we saw on three different days. Seeing it as one, as many of the press managed, will be very interesting.

I don't want to do that just now. I'd rather just enjoy this third one a few more times, and then when the DVD comes out watch it again that way. I imagine it will track much better that way.
I'll hope for a sequel, and Doctor Horrible figuring a way to raise Penny from the dead...

Of course he can bring her back! He's a mad scientist.
But you know she'll come back all messed up & he'll have to kill her again and then we'll all be really miserable. :)
Wash dies.

swoopy | July 19, 06:19 CET


And Rosebud is a sled.
Ok reading everyone else's ideas and responses is helping. When I step away from the heartbreak I can see the themes and the layers and social commentary and think they are brilliant. I love Joss because he doesn't make fluff and then I got sad when he didn't make a fluff ending... but I'm better now...(So really whedonesque IS my group therapy)
That was simply FANTASTIC!!!
I need the soundtrack, now.
Definitely very Jossian.
Loved the cameos.

So sad that it ended, I want more...
Can anyone tell me what Penny says before she dies?

"It´s ok, Captain Hammer was...". What's the last word?
The first song in Act III threw me off.....the rest was superb.

I loved the ending. It made it real. We all make sacrifices for our biggest dreams.
"It's okay, Captain Hammer will save us."
maxsummers - "Captain Hammer will save us".
Brilliant. Well-directed. Heartbreaking. Gorgeous.
I really can't figure out another way to end it.

Pure amazingness Joss.

Way to go.
Wow, wasn't expecting that...but looking back I should have expected something this powerful. Off to have my jaw reattached...very uncomfortable with it on the floor...maybe should have swept this am.
Big meanies.
DVD now please :)
I also noticed that he couldn't pull the trigger when Captain Hammer was frozen and singing about "no mercy". It was like he was having second thoughts.
@Hee

But that's my POINT: Serenity's end was a rollercoaster. Cordy dying in Angel, and then Fred, and Wesley at the end . . . THAT was a rollercoaster. This was PREDICTABLE. It didn't have impact (at least, not for me), and it was so SIMPLE.

I'm a (admittedly amateur, but I'm told very talented) writer. I can write a tragic death. That's easy. It's writing an improbable way for everything to work out and everyone be fine that's hard. And being a work of Whedon, THAT would have been the surprise.

Sure, it's an origin, it's tragic and beautiful. But I'm really just tired of tragic and beautiful from Joss. I wanted fully lighthearted and fun with a few serious moments. It would have been a change of pace.

Maybe I'm just still pissy about Wash.
The music when Dr. Horrible enters was SO Sweeney Todd. Wich is funny, since NPH was in ST on Broadway.

Thanks zeitgeist!

[ edited by maxsummers on 2008-07-19 06:24 ]
i think he couldn;t pull the trigger cause there was still something left in him. with penny gone i doubt he'd think twice now
I'm surprise no one has done this yet.

[Cartman] Oh my god, they killed Penny! Those bastards.[/Cartman] :)

[ edited by crazygolfa on 2008-07-19 06:26 ]
I wanted fully lighthearted and fun with a few serious moments. It would have been a change of pace.

That's what Sugarshock was for. Well, maybe minus the serious moments.
Also, I love the way that Joss, yet again, manages to make the hero seem like a villain, and the villain seem like the hero, at least in our opinions of them, as viewers. Something I know I, at least, struggle to do when I try, so I'm very proud of him for that. It has some very strong implications in it, about how we view people, and how the media present people, I think.
Can someone confirm something to me? Dr Horrible knows the weapon's going to backfire, right?


He does appear to be trying to warn Hammer, yeah.


I got the definite impression he wasn't pleading for his own life there but saying something else, so that fits.

BTW, how awesome that Hammer finished his song when he unfroze.

[ edited by witaria on 2008-07-19 06:27 ]
Thanks zeitgeist!

Oh, sure. I posted it first!
Sugarshock/Pie Spoiler!

b!X - we were almost simul-posting on that one :)
I'm curious as to what 'Dead Bowie's' evil villain claim to fame would be. Fooling people into believing that he's really David Bowie and then charging them for autographs and photos?


Stealing baby brothers. (I tried to trade my brother to the Goblin King once. He was a no-show. LAME.)
Wow, 190+ comments this quickly and not a single solitary "grr argh" from the WHEDONesque database!
April_fool82 - could you use correct punctuation in your posts, please? Ta.
@theonetruebix

Didn't they change hosts or servers or something the other day? After we crashed the old database with comments for Act I?
Thanks zeitgeist!


Oh, sure. I posted it first!


Oh, sorry, didn't see! Thanks theonetruebix! =]
I hated the ending, then loved it, unexpected to me although it shouldn't have been.

By the way, Captain Hammer reminds me of Zap Rannigan from Futurama.
Act III of Dr. Horrible already is up on iTunes, but it's not automatically downloading for me as part of my season pass. Wah!

ETA that if I click "Check for Purchases..." it tells me that all purchases have been downloaded. And, obviously, they have not.

[ edited by theonetruebix on 2008-07-19 06:34 ]
Wow.

And. Wow.

It's amazing, how you can go from laughing hysterically to actually crying and gasping. Wow.

That was...amazing.

And um...the red coat and black gloves? Hot. Like Whoa.

But seriously, Joss, THANK YOU. Thank you for both making me laugh and breaking my heart. This was phenomenal.

H_L
sorry Nancy tribe.......i'm barely able to think straight that's all.

punctuation will be better in the future (no promises about spelling though)
drhorrible.com changed servers when the load to watch the vids was more than they could handle. We here at Whedonesque changed servers when our previous hosting provier shut down our db connection one too many times. We've since shown nearly 2x the load during Horrible-premiere time and had no issues with the load at our new host.
Is there a synopsis of Act III anywhere? I have the worst internet connection ever and all I get on the site for Act III is "buffering" after the first 6 seconds of the Act. Now, if it was "Buffying", I might understand that. But, buffering, no. And, there's nothing after that. I also don't have working speakers on my home computer, so, I would totally miss the music, and dialogue and sound effects and *humph*, why would any of that be important anyway?.... Oh, and with the buffering (I wish it was Bufferin), I can't see any of it either (except for the first 6 seconds which are the credits-- exceptionally well done, by the way). Synopsis anywhere that anyone knows of?
In all of our most beloved series from the wonderful J, someone we love dies. Learn to expect it and deal with/love it!

So after July 19th, we will no longer be able to watch?
Yeah, theonetruebix. It's listed for purchase, but that is an evil mirage. It's not automatically downloading nor is it in actuality purchasable as a separate episode. One gets an error message.

Sometimes iTunes can be laggy. I've noticed this with other subscriptions I've had before.

[ edited by phlebotinin on 2008-07-19 06:39 ]
nicetomeatyou said:
"It's the ache that makes it great"

Unless you didn't ache because you didn't feel all that connected to the characters beyond "she's sweet, he's funny, and he's funny, and their singing is all fun and good". But I realize from the reactions here that that's not a problem with the piece so much as mine and a very few others' reactions to it.

I dunno, I guess I wanted more fluff (well, not fluff...they could still savage society's social mores...I just could've done without the heavy, I guess). You know what I mean.

Heh, someone said they think this is the best thing of 2008 (so far) over The Dark Knight. I won't debate that, but maybe it's because of The Dark Knight that I feel like I could've used something less serious in the end of Dr. Horrible's third act. Just bad timing of what I've chosen to view so close together, I guess.

Note: I've never complained about any of Joss' Plot Points of Pain (various likable one-offs killed, Jenny, Angel--hey notice how no one major and likeable died in Buffy Seasons 3 and 4--Doyle, Joyce, Tara, Anya, Cordelia, Fred, Book, Wash--all were sound decisions, IMO...well, maybe not Cordelia in retrospect, given the donkey exit episode she was given, despite it having two or three worthwhile moments/scenes). This is the first time I've complained about a Whedon death/turn for the serious. Just making the point that I'm not a constant bitcher.
My itunes won't download three either! Another Whedon text you can read multiple ways... the Doc having second thoughts as he's about to shoot hammer (or is he just hearing the freeze ray power down?)... Doc trying to warn Hammer ("I don't have time for your warnings!") (or is he begging for his life?). I want more puppy dogs and frozen yogurt!
Can someone confirm something to me? Dr Horrible knows the weapon's going to backfire, right?

He does appear to be trying to warn Hammer, yeah.

Thanks! Issue resolved, I go back to rewatching. It's definitely easier to appreciate when I'm not so busy going "dammnit, I needed that heart".
Amazing. Utterly amazing. And the 7 kind-of-but-not-really tipsy friends (hey, it's Friday night!) that I showed this to in the middle of our festivities whole-heartiliy agreed. A sad ending but a truly, truly amazing one.

Also, I find it hilarious that we spent several days discussing who Bad Horse could be only to find out it's an ACTUAL HORSE. Good one.
phlebotinin: Ok, thanks.
I'm incredibly disappointed. Penny dying was not a problem for me, (Though how predictable is Joss going to let himself get?) but there not being a satisfying ending was. I feel like it is another damn comic book that never gives the audience a real ending, just lots of beginnings. If this were the first half of a movie it would be fine. If it were the pilot of a TV show it would be fine. It is not. It is something that might not be continued and it just gets sad and trails off. (Or oooo, it could be continued in the damn comic books. I never had an opinion about comic books before, but I am beginning to really dislike them...maybe even intensely.)

Joss and company are so talented. I loved a lot of the music and the writing. However, if Joss is going to write drama as if it is a comic book, I am worried for Dollhouse. /rant
I can't wait to see how Zoic makes Bad Horse talk. ;D
I wonder if one of the extra's that is promised for the DVD an alternate ending? As good as I thought Acts I & II were Act III seemed disjointed and out of sync. It was shocking, but for what purpose? On whole I'd give the production an 8 out of 10; however, it was an event I wouldn't have missed for all the frozen yogurts in the world. Rest in peace Penny (the true hero of the series.)
Mwahahahaneighhhhhhhhhhhhh
I'm glad now that I didn't bring up the possibility of it being an actual horse, 'cause all of that worship would just go to my head.
I had pretty much just assumed it was an actual horse.
Can we be the co-Arch-dukes of Awesome, then? It seemed the Tick-ish possibility. Maybe that's why Edlund got thanked ;)
RE: iTunes. Same thing happened with the first act Tuesday morning, remember? It appeared on iTunes but couldn't be downloaded for hours. It'll pop up, eventually.
"Captain Hammer will save u..."

I do have to admit I really like having that as Penny's final line. Just that little extra blow to already tragic events for Billy.
Had to be a real horse -- rules the league with an iron hoof... death whinny... Cowboys... (I really enjoyed them in Acts I and II!)
Wikipedia already has all three acts recapped, and also has a tracklist naming all the songs in each act.

Click here to go to the site.

[ edited by zeitgeist -fixed the broken link- on 2008-07-19 06:48 ]

Thank you Zeitgeist; I was trying to fix it when my browser froze.

[ edited by floofypooh on 2008-07-19 06:52 ]
Something I noticed in the credits was that Mike Massa (David B.'s stunt double) as Captain Hammer's stunt double. That's neat.
Heart breaks for all of them, and whoever said above, that last look from Dr Horrible just kills me too. Awwwww.

Oh god and Penny brought him the frozen yogurt...

TheGamut that is so true the covering his eyes thing I hadn't picked up on that. Wow.

I don't know alot about musicals but I really like the ones I've seen and I thought the last song was a bit Sweeny-esque too and I mean that in a good tragic/epic sort of way.
I liked that all the Acts and their songs were so different, I dig all of them. The comedic and light hearted ones and the angrier and darker ones(which I love the darkness) plus they were all absolutely compelling as were Felicia, Nathan and NPH. Especially the last Dr Horrible ones, Neil and those songs blew me away.
The songs in this Act were fantastic. Plus Neil, Felicia and Nathan all rule!
Joss and co are just amazing storytellers, after such a short time I care so much about these characters I want to give them all a big hug now ugh...Can't wait for the DVD, soundtrack and or future sequels.
Thank you everyone involved the whole thing is brilliant.
I am a little disappointed. Once I realized that Penny was going to die, my first reaction was, "Of course. It's Joss Whedon. Of course she's going to die."

I was very angry at the end of Serenity. Later, I was able to see the artistic merits, but right at first, there was no way.

I feel that way now. A little angry. At Joss. But I might get over it.
Can someone tell me what Penny says about Captain Hammer before she dies? I just can't seem to catch what she's saying.
April_fool - spelling is just a Whedonesque bonus! :-)

newcj - I don't think the lack of a "real ending" is in any way a comic-book trait. Many if not all novels end with a resolution, but not any kind of permanent one. Because that's how stories work, IMHO: relating one or more episodes in a life, and then leaving the rest open. Although, sure, given the episodic form of comic-books, they do tend to imply a continuing story, much like a soap opera, rather than a one-act play. (But, for a counter-example of a comic-book that does have an "ending," see "The Wake," the final chapter of Gaiman's Sandman). In any event, I think the ending of Dr. Horrible works terrifically well, even if there's never another minute shot.
Just watched it again, it's very poignant conclusion (and I'm in love with the score from this third act, and how heart warming was to have the grrr arghh demon back).

I found it quite satisfying in the sense it is a musical about a supervillain. And he did succeeded, but there was loss. Not going too much into spoiler zone, but it does remind me of aspects from The Dark Knight.

It's funny how it's assumed that Billy really wanted to show Penny his evil side, but at the end wished she wasn't there to see his actions. It's tragic that Penny was clearly getting along with Billy, and longed for their laundry meetings with frozen yogurt.

And now

If people complained that Sugarshock, was too un-Jossian, for being so out there and kind of loud and even perky, those people shouldn't complain after Dr. Horrible, which will hurt you in the gut, in only 45 minutes.

I do wonder the effect of those final events to Billy / Dr. Horrible, the ending is quite ambiguous into this subject. We see him entering the halls of ELE, but we also get that shot of Billy uncostumed in front of the blog view.
Man, this is a bit frustrating. Although I purchased the season pass on iTunes after Act I was released, Act III refuses to queue and I got a receipt for the pass in my email listing only the first two episodes.

Does this mean the only way I'll get Act III is by purchasing it again? I feel bad enough supporting DRM already...
Thank you, I've got it :)
Can we be the co-Arch-dukes of Awesome, then?

Do we get to appear in Dr. Horrible 2?
I posted what was said for Hee here, but someone else said it first :).

Having rewatched it about 3 times, I feel about the same way as I did when I first watched it. I don't have issue with anything in it, and I love Docter Horrible's song after freeze raying Captain Hammer, but the music isn't as great as Act 2.

9/10 though

10/10 for the entire three acts.

[ edited by rabid on 2008-07-19 06:53 ]
I'm having the same problem, Hydeme. Act III is up at iTunes, but it won't download, even though I bought the pass.
Witaria said:
"BTW, how awesome that Hammer finished his song when he unfroze."

Hah, loved that.

theonetruebix said:
"That's what Sugarshock was for."

Ah, Sugarshock slipped my mind. Well, then, um...fine, I was hoping for some new live action light-hearted fun from Joss, not on the page.

crazygolfa said:
"I'm surprised no one has done this yet.

[Cartman] Oh my god, they killed Penny! Those bastards.[/Cartman] :)"

I think it's just 'cause South Park ain't the cultural phenomenon it once was (and even then it never reached the recognization level of The Simpsons, which to my mind is unfortunate). The only time people remember it is when the media report on something controversial and/or hilarious it did (Tom Cruise/in the closet ep, World Of Warcraft spoof, killing Chef). So, Kenny jokes, not really at the forefront of folks' minds and maybe not deemed as funny/amusing as they used to be by many. I still love that show, but I really don't catch the new episodes much. Moreso the older repeats, and I was renting the seasons for a while in a vain and extremely slow attempt to catch up.
Put me down in the column for loving it, but also agreeing that Joss needs to find a new technique for achieving tragic effect. It's moving rapidly towards self-parody.
There *has* to be more.
Wow. That was heartwrenching, especially for a 45 minute presentation. While the second act was definitely my favorite, this ending was true as Joss always keeps it. Felicia did an excellent job with her death, and now Doctor Horrible will remain in my heart (and the prized Whedon section of my bookshelf) forever. Also, my heart was warmed by the Mutant Enemy closing. I miss those guys! Loved to see so many of the Mutant Enemy folks make appearances. Marti and David were as lovely as ever.

Thank you once again Mr. Whedon.
Do we get to appear in Dr. Horrible 2?


Yep, and probably die from pie-related injuries with cups of frozen yogurt in hand.
Do different kinds of pie result in different kinds of injuries?
You bet your @$$ they do; I speak from experience.
Shepherd's Pie often end up in Achilles' Heel injuries. :)
Can someone point me to the site for viewers outside of the US? Specifically, is there a site accessible to Australia?
Yeah, here's the keys.

[ edited by GimpyD on 2008-07-19 07:07 ]
@TheGamut
Could you please explain more about how the last moment in Act 3 relates to why Horrible now covers his eyes. I find that interesting.
I really should not have been shocked by the end...but I was. *sigh* I'll never learn.

Whedon, you bastard!
I gotta say I didn't really like Act III. It just suddenly shifted tones right at the very end, and I'm a bit confused about where Dr. Horrible's character is now. Is he just pure evil now? Cause he defeated Captain Hammer and killed Penny both by complete accident, so I don't know why that would make him go all dark.

I really thought he would kill Captain Hammer, get rejected by a horrified Penny, and then go all dark because of that. But I guess Whedon just can't tell a story without killing off the nice girl love interest. Whatever. I still love the first two acts.
What?! Well of course she dies, did I forget what I was watching? And I still didn't see it coming. :( I loved it, but kinda bummed me out, and I don't wanna be bummed out anymore then I was.. or say bummed out so much.
But I guess there's that other Whedon rule.. those that die are doomed to return.. probably, maybe.
Awesome job Horrible team, watched all the credits, waiting for Penny to pop up or something, but had the ME monster instead.. which is honestly almost as good ;)

Oh and big smile to see David and Marti!

[ edited by alexa on 2008-07-19 07:07 ]
I think this could have used more zombies. Something to keep in mind for DH2, Joss. (I need some levity right now, 'kay?)
I don't believe Doctor Horrible went dark at the end. At the very least, he didn't get darker than he always was. The scenes after she died were all him going through the motions, playing the part of the villain, playing a role. The one time we get to see the real him who we got to know was that final shot of him, where he was blank, almost shut-down, devastated.

It's not that he became the villain, or even imo that he believes he is responsible for her death. Rather it's as Penny said in Act 2. Everything Happens. Doctor Horrible says not to him. There you go.

He was not in control in the end. To get to where he wanted to be, to become a villain, he had to pay a cost that he realises in retrospect was far greater than the reward.

[ edited by rabid on 2008-07-19 07:10 ]
I really don't get the comments about Joss becoming a parody of himself and all the disappointment, but I'm really too tired to refute the stuff. And I can't deny you your own experience of this show. I'll just say this: Joss uses character deaths for myriad and varied reasons; plot advancement, character change and growth, personal illumination. This one for me was character annihilation. Sweeney Todd is already dead at the beginning of that musical. Dr. H. takes three acts to become Dead Alive.
I think calling Joss Whedon a bastard is crossing the line from expression to insult, even if it was genuine emotion or intended to be light-hearted. Can we refrain from that, please. Ta.
Agrees with Tonya.

I also believe that the format of a musical calls for this kind of operatic arc. Musicals in many ways are used to show emotion from the stories in grandiose ways. To accentuate emotion.

Musicals often, by their nature, are operatic. The comedy is more grandiose, the light moments are more whimsical, and the dark moments have barely a hint of light. That disconnect from one act to the other as the story got darker is only natural when each story beat is aggrandized by the music.
As a huge fan of musical theater -- from Jerome Kern to Cole Porter; from Rodgers and Hammerstein to Stephen Sondheim -- may I just say:

Bravo, Mr. Whedon and friends!

And since it is well after 2 AM on the east coast, I will also say good night.
from jcs:
But you know she'll come back all messed up & he'll have to kill her again and then we'll all be really miserable. :)


I think a messed up Penny would actually suit Dr. Horrible now...

anyway, act III...not quite sure. As much as I hate the whole "show the end at the beginning" narrative, I think I would have preferred it in this case. Then we all could have enjoyed the origin story for what it was, rather than be completely assaulted by the ending. Cause I did love the ending. Just not in that order.
I loved it! Was sad about Penny but loved it even more from that moment on when Dr. Horrible just seemed to die inside. NPH is an amazing actor and I really hope we get more of this story. The really, really saddest part was when the clip kept freezing up on me because of bad weather!
Just wanted to add, I kind of knew NPH was a good actor even though I haven't seen much of his stuff, but this bumps him up to great actor in my estimation. :)
newcj - I don't think the lack of a "real ending" is in any way a comic-book trait. Many if not all novels end with a resolution, but not any kind of permanent one. Because that's how stories work, IMHO: relating one or more episodes in a life, and then leaving the rest open.

You don't need a permanent resolution to have a satisfying ending to a story. I too have read a few novels over the years and have an understanding of the idea of leaving some things open. That is one reason I have been specifically talking about a "satisfying ending"; one where the audience is given a place to stop that fulfills something in them. It could be done musically or otherwise. This could have had that, but IMO it doesn't, obviously others disagree. I realize that it is almost certainly Joss being all experimental and that I will be held in contempt by some as looking for a pat Walt Disney ending. Trust me when I say, that's not it. I assume Joss wanted it to trail off leaving a dismal empty feeling since that was Dr. Horrible's state of mind, but to me that was just totally unsatisfying, just like most of the comic books have been. I notice other people up thread calling this a cliffhanger and I can see why. I never considered Not Fade Away to be a cliffhanger, I would not call this one either, it is just an introduction to a story that may never be told. I liked it up until the moment the credits rolled and then a said, "That's it?" and there was an echo in the room as my son said the same thing.

When we saw Ironman, my son asked me if I liked it. I said it was a good introduction and set-up for the sequel. That is how I felt about this. That is how I felt about most of the Buffy comics. Unfortunately they don't even know if they will make a sequel of this, and the Buffy comics are just going on and on. I have a solution for the Buffy comics, I have stopped reading them until they are finished, and then will read them all together. If Joss ever does a sequel of this, I may have to do the same thing.
Wikipedia shows Dr Horrible's real name as "Billy Buddy". Who thought that was his surname?
Oh, I did want to remember to give a shout-out to the fact that the Bad Horse Chorus, during the party sequence at the end, was perched in the doorway so they were still only really seen leaning in from either side.
I honestly thought there was a chance for a happy ending. grrr-arrrg
I told you guys that IMDB or Wikipedia would do that if you kept capitalizing it, but no one listens to the grammar nazi...
Wikipedia shows Dr Horrible's real name as "Billy Buddy". Who thought that was his surname?

People have the dumb. (I mean that affectionately, since I've been referring to myself that way all week.)

[ edited by theonetruebix on 2008-07-19 07:23 ]
My nephew is still laughing at me, as soon as poor Penny got it I screamed F..ing Joss Whedon he's never happy tell some one dies. Darn if I don't love that man.
I agree with newcj. Joss can do emotionally uplifting and still satisfying endings.. Amends comes to mind.
But I loved seeing Dr. Horrible's reaction to it, how something died inside him and his heart turned all black inside. I could read that all in his eyes, and it was amazing.
.

Yes I completely agree.

Also when Captain Hammer is about to use the Death Ray, some people are asking what Dr Horrible was trying to say. I might be wrong but I just figured Dr Horrible could see that it was clearly malfunctioning after being tossed across the floor. There were red sparks and stuff. IMO Dr Horrible was realising himself that the death ray would now have unpredictable effects and was probably trying to warn Cpt Hammer of that . Plus someone mentioned above about Dr Horrible hesitating whilst Captain Hammer was frozen. It did look like he was having second thoughts I thought he might not do it, and was going to lower the weapon, especially when his thoughts turned to Penny and what she would think of it but anyway all part of the story now and Dr Horrible's own layers.(cheese not included)
Sorry for the ramblings.

Oh edit just to add something about the above love for the parting shot. Just that IMO Dr Horrible is still capable of caring, in the future he just has to be willing to let that in. The fact that he shut down like that, It could just be me but I think he felt too much, and then nothing. That he sort of broke, and embraced the Evilness, thinking that's all he has now, plus he is Dr Horrible. But I think he can find redemption if he wants it, he hasn't really done anything terrible yet. Suffering a great loss, and his new found Evil League of Evil status, I think could lead to an interesting struggle within. Promise to shut up now.

[ edited by broodyangelcakes on 2008-07-19 07:50 ]
Billy Buddy is a cute nickname,but that's it. Anyway, anyone want to edit? It's semi-protected and I'm not registered. Well,I probably am but don't remember my password.and I very rarely edit it.
newcj: I found the ending satisfying. But obviously we can disagree about that. The point I was really trying to make is that there are many comic books that do have the kind of ending I think you're talking about. "Sandman" is one. "Watchmen" another. "Preacher" a third. Not all comic books are "damn comic books," IMHO. :-)
See, that's what you get for bouncing the Wonderflonium....

I had an internal argument with myself about Joss keeping in light vs the Jossian character death occurring and if so who? Though It darkened at the end of Act II I found the tone shift pretty abrupt in Act III. However, I loved the very end and the last shot was a killer. I think it's brilliant as an origin story, as commented on earlier by jcs.
Does anyone else have this uncontrollable urge to give Felicia Day a really big hug right about now?

I mean moreso than usual.

Now I know how Zaboo felt. Zaboo!
Now I know how Zaboo felt. Zaboo!

Let's not get creepy now.
I suggested the change in the article discussion page, but I am not a regular editor there cause I have all I can handle here :)

Let's not get creepy now.


Must hold back... sarcastic... reply ;).
I don't know if this was the intent, but Captain Hammer reminds me of a saying frequently uttered in my department at work:

When the only tool you know how to use is a hammer, all problems start to look like nails.
Is anyone who got the season pass on iTunes able to get Act III yet? It's up for purchase, but it won't "download immediately" even though it's available.
No, Nebula1400, this was mentioned upthread.
Yeah, well I've just spent the last ten minutes trying to find that mention, and this thread is moving to fast to locate it!
Can I just put in my two cents about the upcoming dvd?

How about sing-along style captions during the songs pretty please? =)

I seriously can't wait for the dvd...
Threads can never move too fast for ctrl-f and typing iTunes ;) Wasn't scolding you, no offense intended.
I never knew that trick. Thanks, zeitgeist.
No worry and I seriously didn't mean to sound scoldy :)
SenseiJJ: "How about sing-along style captions during the songs pretty please? =)"

Oooooh, with a bouncy ball! Just like the "Pack up your troubles in your old kit bag" cartoon! :D (Yes, I'm old and senile and can't remember the name of it. :P )
sing-along style captions? like the words shining when you have to say them?
Me, I'm waiting for the midnight screenings where the audience is singing along to the musical commentary instead.
You'd think I'd know better by now but I fall for it every time.
Awwww and I was looking forward to Penny taking over, Dr Horrible was going to free us Australians from krudd. Sigh...
I'm so sad because it's over... I want more of Dr Horrible. :(
But I loved it, wow, and Nathan Fillion singing was freaking awesome. He's sooo good, I finally heard him, I couldn't hear him in the first two... But in this one wow, he rocks..

But the Whedon Brothers should work more together, because that was sooo awesome.
But the Whedon Brothers should work more together, because that was sooo awesome.

And don't forget Maurissa. Even though everyone always does, suddenly.
I'm not going to candy coat it just because it's Joss. I didn't like it. I didn't like it at all.
Wicked, wicked Whedonses... Making us all sing-songey and unexpecting-like and then flipping the flaming mouse of reality at our kerosene-soaked cardboard box fort of happiness!

And now the worms that serve as my brain are all squirmy and whispering and telling me stories

...Um. Sorry. Yeah, that kind of got away from me.

[ edited by Grotesk on 2008-07-19 07:58 ]
How about a pop-up video version? With trivia about the characters when they were young...or what happened after...like a prequel/sequel, but WITHIN the original??
You know, it's said that this is typical of Joss. I don't think it is. Usually, people die, but there's comfort (the fight is fought, people retain their humanity and heroness). Not this one, not Dr. Horrible. Penny's death killed Dr. Horrible... all three are changed. Captain Hammer grew (a little), and now has been torn from his innocent haven. Penny was falling for Billy, and had doubts about Hammer, but in the end wait for Hammer to save her. Billy kills the one person he was doing this all for and now has nothing (no emotion) and everything (money, fame, ELOE) he wanted.

Totally agree. He got what he wanted, not what he needed. And he wanted to overhaul the system, put the power into different hands. Well, now they're in Dr. H's hands and nothing has changed. The sheep are still followers, crime may have gone up, but no one is standing up to it (like Penny did).

Dr. H is his own worst villian. And Capt H isn't such a jerk as I thought he was.

This was very good, Team Horrible! And success! Not only does Billy feel nothing, but I feel horrible. I can't wait for Comic-con to discuss things with you there!

:)
Okay, so I was at the after-party at the Serenity premiere, and I got introduced to Joss. Still stunned from the events of the film (I had somehow managed to NOT get spoilerized at all before the big night), I told him something along the lines of this - that the film had ended, and the credits rolled, and I had just sat there, stunned, and three words kept running through my mind, over and over, and I was unable to stop them:

"God DAMNIT, Whedon!!"

I meant it as a compliment. Really.

Still applies.

Awesome. DVD ASAP. AOK.
You know I've seen that ending before but for the life of me I can't remember where.
You know I've seen that ending before but for the life of me I can't remember where.

Outlaw Star? Doctor Steel?

I love that Doug Petrie and Drew Goddard both were in the ELE - and that Jonathan Reilly got a role - well played sir!

SoddingNancyTribe | July 19, 05:46 CET



You know, they totally didn't have to do that. That's a level of classy above and beyond. I don't even know quite what to say.
Watch out, you guys, Tara's next! Oh, hold on a tick...
Outlaw Star? Doctor Steel?
LOL
Oooh, that's right, I did forget about her lol... She's cool tho :D
Outlaw Star? Doctor Steel?


No it was a British show or film I think. Everything goes dark for the anti hero and it ends with him closing a door (or something very similar like that). It's completely downbear and depressing. It's bothering me that I can't remember what exactly is is.
I don't even know quite what to say


How about, "Purple Pimp away!" (or whatever your catch-phrase is . . .)
Joss, you bastard. D:
I told you guys that IMDB or Wikipedia would do that if you kept capitalizing it, but no one listens to the grammar nazi...

zeitgeist


Thanks for making me laugh, z!
Hey zeitgeist, do you actually cosplay the Grammar Nazi?
Hey, Grotesk? I really like how you think.
Well, after all the witty, charming, insightful, Dr Horrible-experience-enhancing comments above there doesn't seem much more to say except -

Thanks to everyone involved in the making of Dr Horrible, I hope you're feeling proud, it is wonderful.
Hey zeitgeist, do you actually cosplay the Grammar Nazi?


I do not cosplay anything, sir!
Well it was very "Godfather" Simon, but I am sure that has been mentioned...even if I couldn't find it.
UnpluggedCrazy, I don't have your e-mail on me, but I would like those lyrics. So I can dissect, learn, find new hidden meanings, pretend it was a dream, cry (& wee) a little, and help decide which shirt to buy.

I don't know if I want to be a sheep, or a tool, or a logo.

Question: Am I the only one who thinks that Captain Hammer "grew" a little? I mean, not much, but for his own capacity, I thought he seemed to reach a new level... keeping Penny as an official girlfriend, enjoying the work he's doing for the homeless, understanding that everyone has their villians to face and that everyone is a hero.

If that's true, then I feel bad because while CH grew and learned, Dr. H did not. He let grudges and vengenance blind him into his own downfall.
The ending is a callback to the end of The Godfather, where Michael finally embraces his destiny and takes up his father's mantle as cartel head, though he was the least likely brother, and the door closes on him having a meeting much like his father was having at the beginning of the saga. I think it was awesome but after all the happy I'm a little in shock and disappointed, though I get it and love it as long as there's more to come.
I didn't see it coming. Shoulda known, but was totally sucker punched. And I'm a huge fan of happy endings, but that's when a story is set up to earn it. This was really the only way Dr. Horrible could end. You cannot have the genius of a villain/hero role reversal without paying the toll. If you have a villain for a hero, a guy who wants to do bad things even if they are for "good" reasons, then he's going to bring about his own destruction because he built his world on a misguided premise. What's brilliant is that our hero got what he wanted, to be a true villain; it just came at a cost he wasn't expecting. It's heartbreaking, but it's real, resonant storytelling, which is what you come to Joss for. I think we're just so used to Hollywood copouts that we forget what story really means. If Dr. Horrible skipped off happily with the girl, the end note would have been off. The second he went forward on his plan to kill, he crossed the line and sealed his fate. The knife twist of "Captain Hammer will save us," was painful but necessary; that was the moment he went from wanna-be to real villain. That stamped the last bit of light from his soul.

One of the most brilliant things Joss ever said was that he doesn't give people what they want, he gives them what they need. That's what real story does, and it ain't always pretty. The goofy setup is what gave us all hope that it could end happily, but what we got here is a truly satisfying ending, even if it is heartwrenching. Pitch perfect. Although I kinda wish I hadn't let my two little girls watch Act I and Act II constantly for the last few days. Idiot. Mama's gonna have some 'splainin to do when Princess Penny gets whacked in the third act...
newcj: I found the ending satisfying.

But *you* like comic books. ;-)

But obviously we can disagree about that.

Absolutely

The point I was really trying to make is that there are many comic books that do have the kind of ending I think you're talking about. "Sandman" is one. "Watchmen" another. "Preacher" a third.

Watchman and Sandman were recommended to me, and I have wanted to read them. However, the local library doesn't seem to have them and I have no desire to buy...well, anything at the moment. The way I am feeling right now I think it would be best for me to read them a little later anyway. ;-)

Not all comic books are "damn comic books," IMHO. :-)

SoddingNancyTribe | July 19, 07:27 CET


But you *like* comic books. ...Wait I said that. ;-)

Seriously though. I'm sure not all comic books are damn comic books, but so far that is all I feel like we have been getting from Joss. It is great for people who like them, and lord knows I've tried, but here we finally have live action and it is another damn comic book with another ending that feels like it is just a set up to sell another damn comic book and I feel ripped off because I was looking forward to buying the DVD of this and now I don't want to unless there is another 40 minutes or so...and/or an ending. (breath)

Disappointment is a terrible thing. I just have to go to that not caring place, but that is not where I want to go after experiencing art, and I've been having to go there a lot lately. I'll stop now and let everybody bask.
You know, this is the second time she referred to her position in the sequel as "craft service". You don't think she dies, do you?

[ edit ] korkster | July 19, 00:12 CET


You know, sometimes I hate myself for asking those questions. It's like a sixth sense... sometimes I just get these feelings that not all is well, and I'm usually right. And I just hate it.
Surely the headline "heroes girlfriend murdered" on the front page of the newspaper should be "hero's girlfriend murdered"? Also I think this act was the strongest musically speaking and acting wise but obviously not as much fun.
korkster - not to be contrary, but I think its one of the original five senses if you are predicting a death in Whedonia ;)
theonetruebix very perceptively wrote:
That last shot is who he really is now, hence the lack of villain garb.


That, or it's laundry day.
:)
Joss, you bastard. D:


OK, that's a second strike (do y'all not read every single one of our posts here?).

Next one to question JW's parentage gets chopped.
Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal! :'(

So sad! And yet... wonderful. Brilliant lyrics and catchy music! The ending stung a bit, though. It seems to me that the explosion forced Dr. Horrible's hand. He hesitated at pulling the trigger on Captain Hammer, but after Penny was gone, there was nothing left for him to cling to but his old evil aspirations. I also feel sorry for Captain Hammer who lost his innocence, and his self confidence along with the girl.
If that's true, then I feel bad because while CH grew and learned, Dr. H did not. He let grudges and vengeance blind him into his own downfall.

I think Horrible did grow, but into a grown-up villain as opposed to being stuck between the two worlds. Just because we don't like what a person turns into doesn't negate that they changed and grew as characters. Sometimes we plant a seed and it grows into a pretty flower, and sometimes it becomes a thorny weed. Both grew.
After some reflection I actually think this is my favourite of the three acts. I loved the performances, the cameos and the level of detail the most, even if the songs weren't quite up to the standards of the previous installments for me. Also, big love to Neil Patrick Harris for his performance, particularly in the final sequence. Well done everyone. What a week, eh?
We laughed, we loved, we wept -- we felt Horrible's heart break, along with whatever remained of his humanity.

Please, join me now in a (virtual) standing ovation.

*applause applause applause*

Thank you Whedons, Etc...

And as fast as you may, bring on the sequel!!!
That, or it's laundry day.

Ooh.
I shouldn't have been surprised, obviously. If my life was a crime procedural show, (and I had a low cut shirt and long flowing hair to toss around the crime scene) I would have had the 'perp's M.O. down cold -and seen death in the cards. But the first two acts made me so happy and seemed mostly light hearted. So I let my defenses down and was sucker punched by poor Penny. I loved her. Note to Felicia Day: you are awesome and beautiful and have a lovely voice. Not surprising that this came out of the writers' strike as previously commented on above. I'll have to watch again tomorrow when I (hopefully) have a little more happy in my mental state. I'm sure by then the ending will... Not that I didn't love it as a whole it's just sad.
Overall though, I loved it. And I will now be a card carrying member of the Neil Patrick Harris fan-club, really just brilliant. And Captain, oh my Captain.
Sometimes we plant a seed and it grows into a pretty flower, and sometimes it becomes a thorny weed. Both grew.


I like that puppetdoug...kind of puts a new perspective on Penny's song in act II

[ edited by Vespa on 2008-07-19 08:27 ]
And the female voices on the last number are just amazing. That's my favourite song of the lot.
ACT III is downloading for me on iTunes now.
ACT III is downloading for me on iTunes now.

Still not doing so here.
I'm downloading now - from Itunes Canada
WTF.

And of course I post this here... and the email notify comes and the download kicks in.

[ edited by theonetruebix on 2008-07-19 08:37 ]
You know, considering that the chain of events that led to Penny's death started with the freeze ray malfunctioning/shutting off, the first song in Act I is pretty gut wrenching in retrospect.

"With my freeze ray I will stop the world" indeed.
I just noticed that on the third watch our Johnathan is the Purple Pimp. Congrats on your head nod!
I couldn't help myself and watched this at a friends and even without sound, it packed a hell of a wallop. (May their broken sound card go to the special hell!)

Now I'm home to enjoy it in full musical brilliance and I am, ironically, speechless.

Eleventy gazillion thanks to all involved and also to everyone who saw a preview copy and managed not to ruin the ending for us.

It just all reminds me why I lurve the Whedons and their verses so very, very much.
Just watched again. Still get chills.
My last post tonight: Thank you to the Dr. Horrible crew for using hulu, the only video service work doesn't block yet! :D

Right now I'm watching EW's Firefly Fridays. Dr. Horrible, Firefly -- This is the Best. Work Shift. Ever! =)
That was amazing and heart-breaking. I'm looking forward to watching it many more times.
korkster - not to be contrary, but I think its one of the original five senses if you are predicting a death in Whedonia ;)

zeitgeist | July 19, 08:18 CET


Really z? What's the other 4?

Wow, Lady Brick, I love how you read my mind and put into words something that would come out jumbled for me.

"With my freeze ray I will stop the world" indeed.

Lady Brick | July 19, 08:38 CET


Not only did he stop Penny & CH's world, but his own too, in a way. While the disease rages on...
Oh, why didn't I listen to myself more! It was too light and funny and it's not like there weren't any warning signs. There was the slightly darker vibe in the Act II and lots of Whedon names all over the whole thing. I was expecting it and yet... Just as my hand was tightly covering my mouth to stop me from waking up the neighbourhood with my screams of laughter... And there it came. I need to watch the whole thing again - but not just yet. - But I loved the grr argh at the end! I needed that to be there. - Now, I need some air.
Shledzguohn? (trans. "Dark Phoenix?") No? Yes? Ah, c'mon. Make the pain stop.

I'm kinda gutted right now, but I thought this was brill - words and music and acting and production all.

F**k me, but I didn't think this was coming. Fool me once... yeah, you know the rest.

Yet each man kills the thing he loves,
By each let this be heard,
Some do it with a bitter look,
Some with a flattering word,
The coward does it with a kiss,
The brave man with a sword!

Some kill their love when they are young,
And some when they are old;
Some strangle with the hands of Lust,
Some with the hands of Gold:
The kindest use a knife, because
The dead so soon grow cold.

Some love too little, some too long,
Some sell, and others buy;
Some do the deed with many tears,
And some without a sigh:
For each man kills the thing he loves,
Yet each man does not die.

from Oscar Wilde's "The Ballad of Reading Gaol"

Wow, that was unbelievable. What a masterpiece. Definitely had the Joss touch. Wow, just wow.
I have to officially come out and say it:

DR. HORRIBLE IS MY FAVORITE SHOW

Some may disagree, but this hit home with me in every way his other 'verses did, but with so much more.
Nice pull, QG. Does this mean there's hope for a sequel?
I about to re-watch it again now. At first pass, I'm not a fan of Act III at all. From the beginning I found myself thinking it didn't quite seem to mesh with the previous installments.

One thing that I consistently seem to wonder about is how Dr. Horrible seems to escape incarceration after each and every crime. I just assumed in Act II that the freeze ray finally *did* warm up, and and allowed him to escape. Then I envisioned some twist with Captain Hammer... that Cappy actually WANTED him to escape so that he could battle him again and again.

I agree with an earlier poster: I've pimped the Hell out of this thing to everyone I could convert... and now they've all been staked with a telephone pole. I'm not eagerly awaiting all those "what was that?" comments on Monday.

Saw a thank you shout-out to Ben Edlund in the credits- would love to know what he did for the production.

P.S.- just how DOES a full-sized thoroughbred of evil write a letter and affix his seal?(Loved the song-turned-into dance party music, B.T.W.)

E.T.A. WOW- that was a completely different experience on my second viewing. Probably should have watched twice before posting.

Two more interesting bits from the credits- I've seen grips and electricians, but never a "griptrician". Can't say I've ever seen "honey wagon driver" credited either!

[ edited by MikeTMC on 2008-07-19 09:15 ]
"A horse is a horse, of course, of course..."
He was an impressively glowering horse, though.

The tragic turn. for my money. occurred in the second act when he turned murderous. We can all do that and a lot of us do.

ETA: But we shouldn't.

[ edited by dreamlogic on 2008-07-19 10:21 ]
Dearest Joss,

I just want to say Thank you.

Thank you for every time you've surprised me. Thank you for every time you've ripped out my heart, stomped on it and handed it back to me. Thank you for every time you've given me a real ending or a dark ending, or a different ending instead of a happy one. Thank you for "The Body." Thank you for "Hush." Thank you for OMWF. Thank you for "Smashed" and "Wrecked" and "A Hole in the World" and "Shells" and all of Firefly and everything else. And now, thank you for "Doctor Horrible's Sing-Along Blog."

Wow.

Just. Wow.

Thank you.
Congratulations, Joss. Think you just proven your point that the internet can be a successful media base for a series.

Now, lets say it. Encore!!
So incredibly beautiful.

[ edited by Effulgent on 2008-07-19 09:02 ]
cabri, I didn't know there was a video, but the lyric you quoted upthread is from the Kinks' "Yes Sir, No Sir."

Oh, I've transcribed the lyrics. E-mail me!
Wow. Wasn't expecting so much dark. I thought it was fantastic, though. That last song was kind of a masterpiece and NPH is a gifted performer. Props and thanks to all involved.
Mooooooore! How cool was Bad Horse?
...

not Penny

...

Bloody hell... This reminds me of what happened to Loo in Fray.

...
Love it... but so torn up!
I think I now know how Darth Vader felt in RotS. Noooooooooooooo ! Not Penny.

Coming to the conclusion that i'm kinda dumb because, let's be honest, tragic death and Joss are not exactly complete strangers and yet I didn't see it coming. Again. I really thought Horrible would turn his life around, that seeing the disapproval in Penny's eyes would be enough but no. Evil is as evil does and the disapproval was in her heart (all too literally). Turn your back on love and look where it gets you - membership in a sort of "Circle of the Black Beauty".

Brilliant. Since the comparison's come up before, I do prefer the Empire Strikes Back-ian Act II but all three were great. Can't wait for the follow-on prequel where Joss totally loses it and has a CGI black and white minstrel as a major character (as if ;).
Well, I can't add anything here that hasn't been said...except...
Thank you Joss...when will we be getting another?
Godspeed, Penny.
Hahahahaahaa check this link out. Made me laugh again after the final Horrible scene.
korkster, that was exactly my evil plan!

Actually, a lot of Act I & II is pretty tragic after seeing Act III. But I do like that the subversion of the hero/villain roles went far beyond the initial comedy. In the end, the hero kills the girl and the villain has to put the loss aside and soldier on behind the mask of his public persona.
Mort, that is priceless.
Heh, nice link Mort. There's also an actual "thoroughbred of Sin" ;).
It's interesting that Dr. Horrible's newfound fame is because he's given "credit" for two things he didn't actually do- kill Capt. Hammer's girlfriend and defeat Capt. Hammer. He's now got to live up to a level of ruthlessness that he didn't acutally achieve.

On a totally diffent note- I keep thinking about The Thoroughbred of Sin: In the pantheon of talking equines there is Mr. Ed, Francis the Talking Mule.... and now Bad Horse? (grin)
Well, Joss still knows how to jump out from the left and the right (at the same time), sucker punch me in the face, then move to the front and kick me in the balls.

I love the whole thing. Bleak? Yes. But can you really be a Josscoat without being a complete masochist at the same time? It probably helps that I thoroughly anticipate a sequel that builds upon this.

Highlights:
-The demented fangirls. "We do the weird stuff."
-David and Marti. Hilarious parody of (I'm guessing) Fox News.
-Hammer's big song. You almost grow to like him, then he pulls you back in line by saying something douchebaggy again.
-Bad Horse was surprisingly indimidating. Here's hoping the ELoE have expanded roles in future Dr. Horrible productions.
I knew it was coming and yet I was still surprised. Sat there in shock after the end for a few minutes. I need to watch this lots more before it disappears tomorrow :(
*watches three times in a row*

Wow. that was amazing.

soooo... when is the soundtrack coming out?
If a Joss production ever ends in a 'happy ending' I'll probably choke on a popcorn. So the ending will still be tragic for this fan.

I'll bring a box of tissues to my 'Cabin in the Woods' viewing.
I regret not making up my damn mind and buying the shirts. Word on twitter is that they're sold out. Damn it! Moves to Plan: Goggles.
Dr. Horrible really perfected his laugh in Act III


good for him!
"Heh, nice link Mort. There's also an actual "thoroughbred of Sin" ;)."

It's a trio!

[ edited by Miisanthrope on 2008-07-19 09:51 ]
I can't believe how literally that took the whole "everything you ever wanted (but in the worst possible way)" thing! Even the freaking lyrics! I'm not sure how I feel about that.
Could you explain more, NotMandatory? I want to understand and discuss what you're saying.
Bad Horse doing his stuff - please, people, don't try to ride him...

Notice how he doesn't show his head ? Criminal savvy that is. You can't teach that, it's a matter of breeding.
Just wanted to say that "Man's Gotta Do What a Man's Gotta Do" has a whole new meaning for me. Wow.

Has anyone watched all 3 sequentially yet? I'm going to to see how it resonates now.
Like others have mentioned I really should have seen the ending coming, but I didn't.

Thinking about it however it is the only way that it could have ended that I feel wouldn't have been a cop out. Also it's not like we weren't warned that there would be a killing in the previous two acts.

The really sad thing is that you feel had Billy not missed going to the laundry things might have gone very differently. Penny seemed to be disillusioned with CH and that moral victory for Billy might have been enough to turn him from his super-villan path.
@korkster - Joss has a habit of giving characters what they want, and then taking it all away, or attaching unforseen and usually tragic consequences. Jane Espenson discussed this phenomemon (and attributes the phrase "everything you want, in the worst possible way" to Jacob from TWOP) in her blog re: Battlestar Galactica, but she uses examples from Buffy too.

Just after Penny dies, the female chorus on Dr Horrible's song sings the lyrics "everything you've ever..." (the "wanted" is, presumably, understood).

I don't have a problem with the concept, and I like the way that everything in Dr Horrible leads up to what now seems like an inevitable conclusion. It's just that I don't know how I feel about it.
Is it bad ? I bet it's bad. I feel bad anyway.
Yeah, a little bad. Okay, a lot bad. There may have been tears.
Joss, tell your brother Jed to put his ass in high gear. We require an act four to this tragic scene of Dr. Horrible...well, actually turning horrible. Or Hammer finding a nicer shade of gray.

Simplier stated (oh, I invented a word!), we want more story.
Wonderful!!! But the end.. I should have known it since Joss Whedon is the creator... sigh but so beautifully sad though.
No dignity... It was 6am here when I watched it for the first time. I was quietly sobbing through the credits when Mutant Enemy appeared on the screen causing me to leap off my chair with glee and simultaneously yank the headphones out of the jack. A resounding Arrrgh echoed through the house. Ah well, the downstairs neighbors are already convinced that I'm a little odd.

I feel sad and happy.
So, how is the world without shrimp?
I'm going to bed... sadness makes me tired, and it's late - so goodnight, my fellow-fandom...

...though I've been thinking about the pleasure derived from tragedy, and that odd human "tragic joy" - trying to understand why we "enjoy" tragic creations when we have so much real life tragedy in and around us... but I think that's part of the "why."

Well, it's quite a topic, and I'm not saying I've come to any conclusions - but the writers (and others involved) who can do this as effectively as the Doc Horrible creators are quite the alchemists, transmuting the raw stuff of pain into a finer metal...

It's quite an awesome power, really - I don't mean to over-dramatize it, but it's really something to cause this pain - among other emotions, and however fleeting - in people who embrace it and applaud the creators.

Well, hate to muse and run, but being such a comedy gal, I haven't spent that much time thinking about why the creation of pain and tragedy is so embraced by folks that stand to inevitably experience their own fair share of it... more on this when my brain is actually working...
I came home from a football game that the BC Lions won (Yay!), followed by a memorial service for their CEO and President, eager to watch Act III of Dr. Horrible, ready for a little 'light' music(al). ;)

I decided to watch it from the beginning. When I got to the end of Act III, I felt very much like I did the first time I saw Serenity in the preview screening - and for many times after that, for that matter. I was stunned and shocked and couldn't talk about it for several hours afterwards. As with Wash's death, it wasn't what I wanted - I admit to liking happy endings, incurable romantic that I am - and yet I immediately recognise how necessary those deaths are to take the drama to a level that the 'safe' ending wouldn't have.

In Serenity, Wash's death leads us to think that no member of the crew is safe from death in the final battle (no matter what Jayne thinks!). Penny's death was necessary to make a point. It's not that Joss is 'always' killing off his characters, it's that most writers take the 'safe' or 'easy' way. Joss definitely does give us what we need - even if it means ripping our hearts out to do it. I, for one, have to thank Joss for teaching me to feel again, which means I have to take the good and the bad.

So thank you to Joss, Jed, Maurissa and Zack - I look forward to more collaborations from all of you in the future (plus Dollhouse and Fringe, of course)

ETA What QuoterGal said while I was falling asleep writing my post!

[ edited by samatwitch on 2008-07-19 11:05 ]
Wait, "inevitably" ? Uh oh.

Yeah, a little bad. Okay, a lot bad. There may have been tears.

and ...

I was quietly sobbing through the credits when Mutant Enemy appeared on the screen causing me to leap off my chair with glee and simultaneously yank the headphones out of the jack.

I was actually looking at the run counter thinking "How the hell are they gonna turn this around in 2 minutes ?" and then "... a thing" and black. Actually said "Oh no fucking way !" out loud. Yep, i'd totally forgotten about the credits which very nicely filled the two minutes in which I was imagining some mad science to re-animate Penny, Captain Hammer exposed as the moral coward we all know him to be but still defeated by Horrible so his super-villain currency goes up etc. etc. Dr H tells us himself though "There's no happy ending ... not for me anyway ...".

The "Grrr Aaargh" was some consolation, not enough but some.
Ah, thanks, NotMandatory. If you hadn't shared I wouldn't have gotten it. :) Now I love it even more.

Still think Penny is the actual hero of the piece.

QG, I hated this at first, from my own fair share of pain and tragedy delivered in such a way I've discussed before. However, I'm able to go back and understand more with Dr. H, where I don't have that luxury in life.

The blow isn't softened, but I understand more, so, in a way, that makes it better?
I feel the same way, Saje. I kept looking at the scroll bar thinking, "they can bring it back, it can get better, make me happier", and then credits. Talk about shock.

Then, worse timing of all, my mom calls and asks me to pick her up. Can you imagine driving at a state of emotional distress like this one? Then the badgering of "what's wrong" and all of that. When she saw Act 3, she shut up.

The "Grrr Aaargh" was no consolation, because I knew it was truly over.
Well, it's sci-fi korkster it's never really over, that and the hints that sequel ideas may be percolating might be enough to sustain hope. Remember the oldest adage of all in sci-fi "Kirk will get the girl". No, wait, that's not it ... "No-one dies forever" (and re-animation is kind of a mad scientist badge of honour. Literally, they get a badge).

NPH just looked so desolate in that last shot, really a brilliant bit of work from him.

(actually, thinking about it, you could maybe make a case that Dr H is Anakin Skywalker in the Star Wars prequels. Maybe)

ETA: And watching it again, one of the worst parts for me is that Penny dies with a lie on her lips. He's not going to save them, he's a selfish, slimy imbecile.

[ edited by Saje on 2008-07-19 11:25 ]
It's certainly a strange feeling being unspoilt for a Joss production. I haven't been like since Buffy season 5 aired.
I've decided I'm going as Professor Normal for Halloween.
Well,there was a downer for a Saturday morning.
Alright...I have to say that I loved it. Every single part of it. I know I'm not the only one that thinks that from the end of Act II to the end of Act III didn't really happen? I say this because at the end Dr. Horrible is wearing the same hoodie that he was wearing when he finally made up his mind to kill Captain Hammer. I'm not saying this to lessen the impact, but, it wouldn't be far from Jossian to suggest it. If it is or isn't, really, is inconsequential to me. I love, love, love this piece, and can only hope one day we get Dr Horrible's Sing-Along Movie, or calendar...or barring that...coaster. I'm not a greedy man. With pez.
Oh...and Grrr Arrgh was a total consolation for me...I missed the little guy so much. It was nice to see him on something original besides Robot Chicken.
Ok, I'm naive, because even after years and years of Whedon I didn't expect that at all.

I didn't like act 1, liked act 2 a lot and LOVED act 3.

Each man kills the thing he loves.

ETA: I did not see QuoterGal's post when I wrote that. Great-ish minds, etc.
Nobody, nobody makes tragic sweeter than Joss. It's so.. numbing, and poetic. The final scene is something cinematic and grand, and NPH is simply.. wow. This guy is all sorts of complete. I love him as Barney, I love him as an unknowing, not-really-evil rising star of the ELE. Sequel now.
Serious question, how possible is it that this could go on to become an actual television show? Or at the very least a regular series of webisodes? Say a 45 minute ep like this one, maybe 4 times a year?

Obviously we are talking allowing for the actors in question to be available, particuarly as the two (surviving) leads are currently working on other series (never before have I sort of wished that HIMYM hadn't been given a new season...), not to mention Joss being busy with Dollhouse but seriously, Horrible and Hammer are far too excellent characters to just let that be that.

I know that I'd be there for a weekly dose of Dr. Horrible but being more realistic I'd at least like to think that one of these webisodes could happen on a semi-regular basis.

And not having Alyson Hannigan be Bad Horse? Missed opportunity, Joss. Missed opportunity! ;)
Thanks to the Ben Edlund mention in the credits, I can at least imagine my own sequel, part of which includes Captain Hammer being taken under the (blue) wing of a certain other super-strong superhero...
Oh, and as much as I loved the final act, a tip regarding Penny for the next webisode, should it appear... Resurrection Ray.

Honestly, it was bad enough only getting half a season of Felicia as Vi and then having to let her go. One episode of her as Penny is just criminal.
Not to repeat anything (or everything) everyone else has already said, but: We all should have seen it coming, but somehow i didn't. I feel like someone's stabbed me in the chest with a shard of Deathray. I wonder if this is a healthy relationship: Joss will keep hurting us and we'll keep coming back for more...

Still, the 'Grr, Arrgh' at the end soothed the sting a bit :)
Anyone else beyond me thought about Caligula when you saw the horse among the evils ruling the world in the end?
... part of which includes Captain Hammer being taken under the (blue) wing of a certain other super-strong superhero...

Not just super-strong, nigh invulnerable too ! ;)

Or at the very least a regular series of webisodes? Say a 45 minute ep like this one, maybe 4 times a year?

Well that presumably depends on the money among other things (let we unAmericans pay you too ! Please ! ;) but Joss has said that they asked a lot of favours to do this and that if they hadn't relied on the kindness of non-strangers, it would've cost more. I don't see a TV show and to be honest I also don't see Dr Horrible becoming a regular thing. I do see more Dr H in live action at some point (and certainly more comics etc.) and maybe more of the same sort of indie thing from the Joss posse (the Josse ? ;). Personally i'd love that even more I think, a sort of annual dose of totally fresh stories and characters over and above his ongoing stuff. Like a sort of Whedon Holiday Special every year ;).
It's certainly a strange feeling being unspoilt for a Joss production. I haven't been like since Buffy season 5 aired.

I know, isn't it great!
Anyone else beyond me thought about Caligula when you saw the horse among the evils ruling the world in the end?

Didn't occur to me at the time. But, ironically, Caligula's horse's mate's name was Penelope.
Awesomeness. I love how it goes from the funny and singing to the deadly serious... and singing. Made my morning, day and probably evening.
"Well that presumably depends on the money among other things..."

Yeah, I hear that had a lot to do with the ending of Angel and Firefly too. I'm starting to think that this "money" thing has some kind of grudge against well written entertainment. ;)

But that was pretty much what I was thinking, Saje. Based strictly on the way that this first webisode happened I really wouldn't expect it to be able to become a regular thing. There are only so many favours even Joss is owed, I'd imagine. What I was hoping was that the success of this might lead to someone with some of that money stuff actually throwing some in Joss' direction for future webisodes so that those involved might actually get, y'know, paid. Then maybe this could be done on some sort of regular basis. As you say though, it will all come down to how profitable this first attempt turns out to be.
Gosh nabit! "Penelop". How did I miss that?! I've a tall order of explainy, yes I do.
Oh my!! I wasn't ready for that. I saw there was still 2 minutes left and thought he'd save her. So when is the sequel?? We need a sequel real fast!
I'm soo mad right now, though I should have known what was at stake (heh) It's a Joss show afterall, so shit is about to happen, but come on, Penny???????????? I have a GRRRRRRRRRRR and an ARGHHHHH for ya! *sniffles*

Great, great show, please let there be more!
...

Awesomeness made of awesome with awesome on the side.

Dear Joss, please return my heart when you're done tearing it apart. Don't worry, I'll get it back in shape in time for Dollhouse, so you can kill me over and over again. I love when you do that. :)

On a lighter note, did I dream it or when Hammer is standing over Dr. Horrible with the Death Ray Gun he also gives him the finger?
of COURSE he's a real horse! would you expect any less from the Thoroughbred of Sin?

I think I know why some people (myself included) are having problems with the last act - I think the whole think has a little problem with the tone-changing. Tone and genre are a contract between the creators and the audience. Now, you can subvert and even break the contract (as Joss often does) but you *have* to, as a creator, somehow alert the audience to this. Now, Dr. Horrible did hint heavily at dark things, but it was still a little confused with a lot of silliness and humor and lightheartedness, and I think in way it wasn't balanced well enough.
Plus, the Doctor's not *really* bad, he does some bad things but he really is a good guy, and I got the sense he wanted to change the world for the best. And I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have shot Captain Hammer. His real crime was that he wanted power to gain respect he felt he didn't have, not really to use it for good.

BTW, the Doc's song was a little too Sweeney-Toddish for my taste, but it's still a good song.

That said, I thought the whole thing was great.

[ edited by lordsketch on 2008-07-19 13:23 ]
Yep, he most certainly did. Also gave him a wedgey in act two. Wondering if this is leading somewhere....
Wow, that was just wow. Within 45 minutes, I've been on a wonderful rollercoaster ride. From laughter and merriment, to love and hope, to sadness, helplessness and inevitability. And I loved every minute of it.

With three fictional characters (yes, they are only fictional), Joss has within less than an hour, made me love them so profoudly that their fictonal death has made me weep and mourn their passing. And oh, did I mention that they are ficitonal. What a storyteller to be able to provoke real true emotions about characters I've only known literally 45 minutes, just shows how amazing Joss really is. I've been watching telelvision for years and years now, and things get repetitive, and when something comes along that surprises me (even after I shouldn't have been surprised) and makes me say wow, I cherish.

Thank you, Whedon folk for this wonderfully emotionally moving bit of art. Which, it really is, after all. I watch to be entertained and to be told a story and entertained I was. There are no black and whites just grays, no good versus evil, no good people live happily ever after and bad go to bad people's jail. Just as in real life. Once again, thank for giving me the gift of laughter and song and for making me weep and empty my tissue box and for everything in between. Encore, encore!
Dr. Horrible: "Hey, didn't you go on a date last night? Conflict Diamond told me you were doubling with Bait and Switch."

Moist: "Yeah . . ."

Dr. Horrible: "Yeah?"

Moist: "It was all right. I thought I was supposed to end up with Bait but . . ."

Dr. Horrible: "I hear ya."


. . . I see what you did there.

You know, I want to love it unconditionally but frankly, I think I need to watch again and let it all soak in for a while. I mean, I knew this wasn't "Dr. FluffyKitten's Sing-A-Long Blog" going in but Jesus, Whedons (plural) - that was rough. This was like suddenly finding a serrated switchblade at the center of the most delicious ball of cotton candy I have ever tasted. With my tongue.

A++ songs, acting/singing, comedy and visuals but freakin' OW at that ending.
OH WOW just seen act III I'm heartbroken. I've should have seen it comming because it's so Joss, but I didn't.
" Everything Happens" ....so true
Joss & Co thank you so much for making this!!!
It's funny, beautiful and sad at the same time.
I can't wait for the DVD and soundtrack.
I thought each episode was better than the previous. Part 3 was the funniest (to me), and the saddest. Once again, Joss proves why most other writers aren't even in the same league.
This just made me think back to Act I and the scene with the van:

Dr. Horrible: "You idiot! You almost killed her!"

Captain Hammer: "I remember it differently."

Well, in Act III- he finally *did* kill her... and now it's the world that 'remembers it differently.'
That was...oh wow. At an extreme loss for words here. Joss deaths get worse and worse as time goes by, I've noticed. The ones in Buffy and Angel were bad enough, then came Wash, and now this. But I suppose it wouldn't effect me so much if it wasn't so well written. His purpleness does it again. ;)
I notice a lot of people are talking about a change in tone in the third act, and they seem somewhat surprised by this.

As soon as I noticed this was being billed as three acts, rather than parts, or episodes or webisodes, I assumed that this had been put together as a modern version of the traditional three act play, and it would appear that this is correct, even down to the denouement at the end.

As such it didn't surprise me at all in the change of tone between all three acts, I honestly thought this was perfectly constructed and flows very well from one act to the next even with the change in tone, and Miss Tancharoen and the Brothers Whedon should be congratulated on the application and use of this structure if nothing else.

What did surprise me, and many others was what should have been obvious given that Joss was involved. I just vaguely hoped that as it had been his most comedic production so far that it might mean we could be saved the pain this time, thus leading to me actually being surprised. The man just can't leave us with a happy ending can he? But then again, any kind of happy ending wouldn't have been anywhere near as good, or interesting, or true.

The only thing it really leaves us with is the hope that one day Billy can find redemption, and if it follows any kind of comic book sensibilities, as it has (roughly) so far, would be for Dr Horrible to end any sequel sacrificing himself for the greater good.

Sadly though I don't think we'll ever get a sequel, Joss always leaves us wanting more.
I know Alexa aint the most reliable in terms of accurate Internet rankings but holy crap look at the traffic details for drhorrible.com. I think that surpassed the rankings for the official Serenity movie sie when the movie came out in the States.
Why do people think Billy's last name isn't Buddy? He says it to himself as he is trying to kill Captain Hammer and Penny hears it and repeats "Billy Buddy?" and starts to get up from where she is hiding.
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I can't believe it. I've been crying non stop since me and my mam have watched it. :(
Joss is fantastic. Everyone on Dr Horrible's Sing Along Blog was fantastic. I'm hoping beond hope that their going to make more.....Please Joss. I'm begging. :)
Why do people think Billy's last name isn't Buddy?


Was that a delibrate nod to Billy Budd? The book, film and Morrissey song. It did cross my mind when I heard the name.
Oh Joss, how I love you even though you rip out my heart and slap it around.

It was wonderful and tragic. Thank you.
It did cross my mind when I heard the name.

What crossed mine was alliteration, which is a staple of super-hero/villain characters both but probably more heroes (Clark Kent, Peter Parker, Bruce Banner, Matt Murdock etc.) - thought it might be a hint that we'd see Billy turn his life around but I guess he had too much Lex Luthor in him after all.
I have that feeling lying under my skin, you know that one you get when you've just been told a really powerful story. That feeling I pretty much only get from Joss Whedon, Steven Moffat and sometimes Russel T. Davies. That was amazing. And it successfully did what Revenge of the Sith should have at least tried to do. In only a few minutes. Best. Rise to Evil. Ever.
I didn't see this coming, but in retrospect, it's how it had to end. How it needed to end. There's no other way it could have ended. That's what I love about Joss. He doesn't give you what you want or expect. He gives you what you don't know you need. And I, for one, am thankful. I really needed this. And I need more.
Awesome job, everyone involved.
I did not love Act III. Felt a little sick - read most of the posts here and found similar responses. I just said out loud and definitively - "I love Joss, but I hated Act III." My wise-cracking son lovingly piped in: "It's not Dr. Great, it's Dr. Horrible." :-) Now I can go on with my day!
I wasn't sure if I liked Act 3 the first time I watched it. But I've just watched all 3 acts together and Act 3 definitely works better like that imo. I enjoyed it so much more. Still, I am left feeling somewhat....unsatisfied. I think that's just because 45 minutes is not even close to being enough. There should be more. So much more!

Poor Dr Horrible! How did I not expect Dr Horrible and Penny to get Jossed? He does it every time, and every time I am shocked! I'm sure when we all wise up and start expecting that to happen, Joss will give us a happy ending, just to screw with our minds =P

I was surprised to see Bad Horse was, in fact, a horse. So much for all our theories, lol. I am still curious though, how did Penny know who Bad Horse was?
I think another reason why Dr. horrible hit me at least so hard is that I've been living with it for the past five days... rewatching each episode and listening to the songs and so it has a bigger impact then it would have had I watched the 40 minute thing in one sitting...

"I bring you pain, the kind you can't suffer quietly" - no truer words...
I'm surprised to see so many folks hating on Act III. I mean, it's Joss! He doesn't do plain old happy. I too got lulled into the "happy web musical" aspect and didn't anticipate tragedy, but I loved it all the same.

It's the best possible outcome to warrant a sequel. If he got the girl, what would the sequel be? A cozy domestic scene? Now Dr. Horrible is full of pain but he's got what he's supposedly wanted and is part of an evil organization. There's tons of narrative potential there.
Well, I just loved it to bits. Silly me, but I too was shocked by Penny's death and shocked that a quirky little internet musical with a name like that could hit such an emotional chord. When will we (I) learn?

Two things to Simon... Re: the ending, along with The Godfather, I was feeling a little Dangerous Liasons here. Remember Glenn Close in the mirror, wiping off her makeup with that devastating expressionlessness? /shudder. The fruits of your scheming will come to roost (wha...huh?!?) and you're left with no one to blame but yourself, and very little in you left to care. Gorgeous.

Also...

Surely the headline "heroes girlfriend murdered" on the front page of the newspaper should be "hero's girlfriend murdered"?

Wasn't that just the (fun, tragic, for-those-looking-carefully-like-you) twist? That she was the girl of both heroes/villains...

[ edited by barest_smidgen on 2008-07-19 14:58 ]
sportforredneck, I'm with you. The final shot made me wonder whether anything in Part III really happened, or whether Dr. Horrible was imagining it all (as he imagined dancing with Penny in the laundromat in Part I).

Love Joss, love parts I & II, hate the ending of Part III.
The final shot made me wonder whether anything in Part III really happened, or whether Dr. Horrible was imagining it all.
I didn't think of it that way. I thought it was showing us that, despite red costume and finally really putting the goggles on, he was still the same fragile dude underneath.
Yeah I didn't get that sort of 'Normal Again' is it real vibe from it. If it's not real then the look on his face is totally out of place, the guy's clearly really in pieces, not just a bit upset like you would be after a bad dream or imagining the worst.

I am still curious though, how did Penny know who Bad Horse was?

I never have understood why this is a big deal. In their world, super-heroes are in the newspapers and on TV and the deputy mayor writes letters of condemnation of even minor super-villains - why wouldn't she recognise the name ?

(just as in Batman's world people know about The Joker or in Spider-man's world people know about the Green Goblin)
All in all, I want to say, "THANKS!" It was an experience to remember, the show, the interviews, the depth, the fans, the conversations, the everything that has happened.

It couldn't have been better. :)

[ edited by TheGamut on 2008-07-19 15:08 ]
A few more points. I do think that watching all acts in one sitting does help; the so-called 'shift-in-tone' isn't really recognisable to me and it hangs together exceptionally well as a 45-minute piece. Also, as far as future (plausible) Dr. Horrible projects go, I'd love to see origin stories for the other Evil League of Evil members in comic book form.
I think the story was great. More please!
I'm surprised to see so many folks hating on Act III. I mean, it's Joss! He doesn't do plain old happy.

For me at least, it was more that Acts I and II had that 'happy musical' feel to them whereas Act III didn't. So as a standalone act, it just didn't seem right when compared to the other 2. But then when you watch them all one after the other, it works wonderfully.

I never have understood why this is a big deal. In their world, super-heroes are in the newspapers and on TV and the deputy mayor writes letters of condemnation of even minor super-villains - why wouldn't she recognise the name ?

Ah yes, very good point. I didn't even think of that. Now it makes perfect sense why she knows who Bad Horse is.

[ edited by phlebotenum on 2008-07-19 15:16 ]
Yeah I loved Dr Horrible and also many of the fan comments here thinking about it afterwards.

It's true that this is a great entertaining layered artefact from the writers' strike for the future. How often does the underdog side get to write the testament?

I want to say a big well done and heartfelt applause to all of the cast and crew involved with this.
WOW! I'm just hoping that ressurections are possible in this branch of the whedonverse as well. Dr. Horrible IS a mad scientist... SEQUEL!!!
Dear Joss (& team),

Just chiming in with my congratulations on a job awesomely well-done. I ~love~ that Penny's 'demise' drives the story hard and fast towards a precipice - it surely signals that there is much, much more to come. Can't wait. And I suspect that we haven't seen the last of Felicia in this tale ~just~ yet. :-)

May I add that 'Slipping' was a stand-out song. Truly it would not be out of place in a Sondheim musical - which is about the highest praise I can bestow on any work of theatrical art, and you being a fellow Sondheim obsessive fan, I suspect you know where I'm coming from when I say that.

Lovely, lovely work. Just lovely.

Thank you.
Ziggy Stardust! OMG!
Why do people think Billy's last name isn't Buddy?


Because Billy was Penny's laundry buddy and it woudl be strange and stilted for her to be referring to him by his whole name rather than the assumed "Billy, (my) buddy" in the song.

I am still curious though, how did Penny know who Bad Horse was?


I assume from reading papers and watching tv as hero/villian coverage seems to be a big thing. ETA - er, what Saje said! ;) And, as expected, love it to bits in the light of day. Incredible what such skilled writing can do to you in such a short time.
I swear, Saje, you and I share a mind... or rather, you have a mind and occasionally, apparently, I borrow it. ;-)

I will need to watch Part III a couple more times, but I have to say that I found it a perfect ending. Cannot wait for the DVD, and how totally lovely to see old friends looking so good (even in costume).

Joss, you bast...ion of talent! *giggle* (couldn't help myself, SoddingNancyTribe. But I do think it's notable that the "you bastard" thing is from "South Park," as in "Oh my G'd! They killed Kenny!" "You bastards!" Considering the character's name is Penny, it's actually kind of clever... :-)
Darn good thing that it's easy to dye a white lab coat RED, wouldn't you say?

Man I wish we were going to Comic Con this year! Y'all got to keep me in the loop. Promise? ;-)

And a big shout out to anyone else going to Austin TX for the Browncoat Ball: There WILL be sing-a-longs.
I loved all three acts, they each served a specific purpose and did it well.... And I really kind of love Grotsky's scenario except that when the Bad Penny shows up, I think that Captain Hammer and Doctor Horrible will have to join forces and will finally find true happiness in each other's arms!
I want to cry!!!

(loved it!)
Brutally beautifultm.
First off, I cannot deny that I loved it. The whole thing. And if this were the first thing that I ever watch by Joss, that would be the end of my comments. But one of the best things about Joss's work is it takes expectations and turns them on their heads. And at this point, my expectation is "the innocent will die to advance the story". Angel's story was a never achievable quest for redemption. I thought for Dr. Horrible, the story could have been redemption achieved for a change. I am not looking for a hollywood ending all the time, but joy and relief are cathartic as well.
SoddingNancyTribe, I guess it's a good thing Alan Tudyk doesn't post on Whedonesque, then. ;-)
Karosurly - well he could WEAR the button he would just be discouraged from posting it ;)
After sleeping on it, I have to say that I haven't been this affected by an ending since Schindler's List or Se7en, and this may have surpassed even those.

The sad thing about Dr Horribe (among the many), is that Joss and company have created this incredible piece of art, yet it will never again resonate so strongly as it has for us. This has been an EVENT which will not and cannot come again.

We say it was 45 minutes, and it truly will be for anyone who sees it now -- but for us it was so much more. It was watching and rewatching and waiting and rewatching, and obssessing and discussing and pimping and pouring over the interviews and reviews and everything.

Most of all, it was us totally crushing on Felicia Day, who for me started the month a relatively minor figure in the Whedon pantheon, yet now I wonder when are we getting her photo on this site's masthead? (if it's a question of space, I say we bump Xander). Felicia has been so fantastic and so sweet and open with all the interviews with fan sites, plus her own site, and twitter, and the photo shoot, The Guild, etc. Joss couldn't have picked a more perfect Penny to give us, and then to take away. Who was it that first said that Felicia sings like an angel? Sob.

Maybe I'm getting too cynical, but I wonder if in all this we weren't even being played a little by Joss (not that I'm complaining).

In years to come, new fans will see Dr Horrible, and they will love it, and they will remember it. But we were the ones who got to live it.

And that's what makes it (and us) special.
What's that red blob quivering on the floor? Oh yeah, it's my heart that's just been ripped out.

Will I never learn? I hope not.

Thank you so much Joss & Co. Awesome right to the very last. I even recovered enough to cheer at 'Grr Argh.' Welcome back Joss Whedon - I've missed you.
Ah, the ending.

Not horribly unexpected (I see dead people = I see Joss people),
but I still kept waiting,
and waiting,
and watching the credits roll (and going "Hey!" at various names)
and waiting for an extra little scene or somesuch that never came. (Grr. Argh.)

Then I went back and rewatched all the acts (and caught all the little things I missed) and enjoyed the musicy lyrics and buffness of NF and evildom of musicals and went off to tell people about DHSAB in my own heroic not-so-heroic way.


All in all, this project rocked. And a hearty yay to everyone who made it so wonderful. Hope it gets lots of continuing support.
I didn't even think of Penny dying. I should have of course because Joss uses actual character death to show how things end and new things begin though the end affects the person who has to survive and change. He insides out that metaphor. Joss is brilliant. I love him. This was different but the same. That's what I expect from art done by the same artist!
... or rather, you have a mind and occasionally, apparently, I borrow it. ;-)

Lucky I wasn't driving at the time ;).

I thought for Dr. Horrible, the story could have been redemption achieved for a change. I am not looking for a hollywood ending all the time, but joy and relief are cathartic as well.

I actually wonder if Joss is just trying to time it perfectly so that as soon as the majority actually are expecting the innocent to die every time, he subverts that by giving us the fairytale ending. Or maybe he's dead inside ;-).

(more seriously, I do sometimes wonder if he thinks there's no place for innocence in the adult world - it's often, maybe always, the people that least deserve to die that buy it in his stuff)
It is so much better all together, too... Mmm, delicious heart stabbing ;)
DAMN it, Joss! I mean ... WHAT THE ... I mean ... ARRRRRGHHH!
You know, I'm really getting sick of Joss playing mass murderer with his casts ... it's getting a little freaking rote.
Saje, I wonder the same thing. And in that, I thought Wash was the tipping point, where we all now expect death. (Though I thought (hoped) Renee in the Buffy comic was going to be the mis-direct and she might survive), but after that, no expectation of a surprise survivor. The only time I can think of where it was done was Cordelia in the third season of Buffy. I loved that they had Willow and Buffy talking about her near a funeral, only to say that she would make a full recovery.

It's a dark view of the world. Innocence is ultimately sacrificed, evil always stronger. In a way, it makes the hero more admirable, in that they keep up the fight regardless, only in Dr. Horrible, there was no real hero.

I must stop now! I have this fear that Joss will be reading comments and think "That EditorAl doesn't get my work, what a whiner and a jerk!" Not so Joss! I love everything you do. You entertain like no one in a generation or more and there is more depth in your work (intellectual, emotional, etc) than 99% of television and film.
Chiming in with comments on all three acts-I waited until they were all up to view them and avoided reading anything that would spoil me, cause I like it that way.

First off, I'd like to echo Simon's You'd think I'd know better by now but I fall for it every time. And second, I'd like to add that I wasn't expecting to like this as much as I did-it kind of caught me off guard.

Act one was....interesting but I was sort of "what's the big deal?" It was like watching a comic book fan's fanasty come to life or something. I didn't get it, although I enjoyed the singing part. But mostly, I was...meh.

Act two was utterly brilliant, every single second of it. I was drawn into the story, was rooting for Dr. Horrible to win over Penny, thought Hammer (Captian Hammer? What was it?) was an ass. A hunky ass but an ass nonetheless.

Act three? Yeah, should've seen that coming, was shocked that I didn't, kind of wanted to hate Joss for killing another character yet again but found I was too impressed to.

Congratulations to everyone who was a part of making Dr. Horrible. The lyrics were great, the acting was superb (and so were the vocals) and I loved the way it was filmed and presented.

It was great seeing Fury and Noxon in that little skit and maybe the best part of it all was tearing up at seeing the "Grr! Arrg!" monster at the end.

Now of course....I have this quirky urge to go rewatch season 2 of Angel because viewing Dr. Horrible was sort of like watching a compressed version of the Angel/Darla/Lindsey arc from that season, up to and including the last line of act three. Wonder where I heard that before?
Okay, I'm still in the process of reading through the above.. so sorry if what I'm saying is a bit redundant, but here are my thoughts:

It's so mean. It's all because Dr. Horrible showed mercy! Is it my imagination, or did he hesitate for a moment before shooting Captain Hammer? If he hadn't have hesitated, Captain Hammer wouldn't have been unfroze, he wouldn't have punched him and damaged the gun, and all that wouldn't have happened..!

And secondly, why did they have to make it so funny? Bad Horse at the end, the Bad Horse spokespeople in the party, Captain Hammer on the psychiatrist's chair... all hilarious, in theory, but we can't laugh! You've killed us, and we can't laugh at these funny things. It's so tragic. And I love you all for it.
You know, now that I've taken a few deep breaths, I'm still pissed off ... and I'm sure I'm painting a big fat target on myself by saying this on Whedonesque of all places, but why does Joss always go for the death of a character he's made us love?

Listen, I do get the power of that technique. But the fact that he has now employed it in nearly every single creative project he's done is getting a little, well, repetitive.

I'm sure I need not read the list. But I tell you, part of why I am so angry is that I forgot this was JOSS FREAKING WHEDON we were talking about and OF COURSE this was going to involve Penny's death. And I got suckered right in to the story and into caring for them.

The death of a beloved character is a SHORTCUT. And the fact that he keeps employing it is now seeming to me to be REALLY LAZY.

Joss, I know you occasionally read these threads. Honest to God, man, we GET IT. We're now expecting that any creative project you work on, you're going to write a wonderful, beloved, sweet character that you'll make us love from the bottom of our hearts, and you'll then scoop out her soul and not even give her an afterlife, or you'll shove a piece of a death ray in her abdomen, or you'll shove a ten-foot diameter Reaver spike through his body, or ...

You're starting to get the allure of a horror movie, except that the characters are so dimensional that they're not the one-dimensional characters of horror, they're four-dimensional characters better than real life. But your stuff is getting the patina of a chop-shop movie: what beloved character is going to die next, and in what gruesome fashion are you going to off them?
AlanD, you summed up my sentiment nicely. This has been an event for me and a very special one. That's what Joss said he wanted to make it, so it makes sense that's how it turned out.
I will watch over and over and love this story for always, but the experience will never quite be the same as right now.
Thank you, Joss, cast, crew, and everyone here (because you were/are all part of the event for me).
I have to say, I was an easy mark for Dr. Horrible since I teared up at the end of Act 1. The ending, however, blew my mind. I wasn't expecting a meditation on power,heroism, sadness and corruption from a webmusical. Silly me.

I wonder if any of this was inspired by NPH in Assassins, since there's the same innocence, smallness and sadness then suddenly magnified by one frightening action...and damn, NPH is amazing.

The more I look at this the more depth it gets--much as they said in Buffy, it's about the power. Anyway, I am very impressed...I was hoping for happy, but I think this took it in further, stranger directions than I expected. I'm very impressed.
Okay, just spent the last hour or so reading this incredible, grown, distorted, mutant-version of a regular 50-posts-or-so whedonesque thread after having been shocked by Act III.

I was actually looking at the run counter thinking "How the hell are they gonna turn this around in 2 minutes ?" and then "... a thing" and black. Actually said "Oh no fucking way !" out loud. Yep, i'd totally forgotten about the credits which very nicely filled the two minutes in which I was imagining some mad science to re-animate Penny, Captain Hammer exposed as the moral coward we all know him to be but still defeated by Horrible so his super-villain currency goes up etc. etc. Dr H tells us himself though "There's no happy ending ... not for me anyway ...".


Saje, stop stealing what I wanted to say. And also: are you me? ;)

I'm still surprised that Act III surprised me. Joss did the old 'bait and switch' (only - without the negative connotations that holds) very effectively, selling of Acts I and II as lighthearted musical comedy. Slowly getting darker, yes, but lighthearted all the same. And then, as it turns out, the tonal shift at the end of Act II gets expanded upon in Act III and we get the Jossian drama we all know and love.

As others have said, the ending is pitch-perfect. It makes one feel (kudos on getting us so invested in characters in 40 minutes), it works on many levels thematically and it makes for some truly, truly awesome acting on NPH's part. Surely that's what makes it painfull. Penny's death is only a short moment (although her undisturbed faith in Cpt. Hammer is gut-wrenching), but Dr. Horrible's reaction is what sells the pain.

So, all in all, an almost perfect piece of fiction. But, having said that, one does have to wonder: we joke about Whedon killing off characters, and Joss keeps doing just that. It's already becoming his trademark and for some - just taking a look at the reactions in this thread - we've already passed the point where it has become a form of self-parody. I, too, felt initially disappointed that Joss would pull the same trick again (and at the same time impressed that he would have us - not the least intelligent bunch on the net, I'd think - fall for it all over again as well).

Yes, Dr. Horrible would have been a lesser work of fiction - I feel - without the tragic ending (although I would have still loved it to bits, for the breezy piece of entertainment it could have been), but it is something to be considered. There's a risk of Joss becoming a one-trick pony (or horse ;)) in the minds of main-stream media if people start to notice the theme more outside of our fandom. Like Shyamalan soon became pigeonholed as the 'twist-guy'. And it would sell Joss short, because all these deaths make dramatical sense and help push the story forward or take it in an unexpected - but, in hindsight, unavoidable - direction. I guess it would be helpfull if 'Cabin in the Woods' did not use this particular story device as I think the chance for no major character deaths in Dollhouse is about equal to zero ;), although I'm now realising that the chance of that in a horror movie is probably also not too big.

ETA: yikes, this thread has grown while I was typing this. You guys are fast.

[ edited by GVH on 2008-07-19 16:47 ]
Um.

What just happened?

In brief: liked act one, loved act two, thought the first few songs in act three were underwhelming, and then Dr. Horrible came in and WHAT JUST HAPPENED? Can't...process....
And ironically I've been listening to "Serenity" in the background and Wash just bit it ...
"The final shot made me wonder whether anything in Part III really happened, or whether Dr. Horrible was imagining it all."

That's what I thought at first, too. It's the only time he's at the webcam without his coat and goggles, and that whole montage leading up to it was very quick and disjointed like how someone would imagine things playing out for themselves. I thought maybe he had made up the entire story in his video blog, or at least all of the stuff after Penny's death.

Now I'm pretty sure it's just supposed to show something about his character, but I'm a bit confused about what it's supposed to show.
GVH said:

ETA: yikes, this thread has grown while I was typing this. You guys are fast.


That's what soo many years of no Joss show does to rabid fans, there's finally something to talk about, and talking is what us fans do at great lenght :D

Still hasn't sunk in, but I'm going to watch the show in it's total later tonight. With a beer or two and a box of tissues.
Vow!!! Brilliant work from Team Whedon, and a great take on a questions of social change - violent or not, and on the state of the establishment. More layered then one would expect for the thing written during WGA strike, where you could often hear just one side of the story, i.e. that the change is good and that the system is bad.
But here we don't get easy answers. My hat's off to Mutant Enemy.

It's such a replay of NFA in a way (Angel's finale), with Dr.Horrible entering the Circle of Black Thorn, to rule the world in a better way (in his opinion) after qualifying with a murder (he didn't do it but it still was his fault), and shutting the door behind him. Vow.
The price of violent social change is right here, as well as the lies and ruthlessness of the establisjment (Cpt.Hammer).
Cpt.Hammer didn't hesitate to fire the Death Ray, after all.
We know who the victim is but who's the villain here? Both Hammer and Horrible.

Brilliant. Here we have amost a Raskolnikov's story, from Crime and Punishment. I'd really like a sequel to see whether Dr.Horrible could repent like Raskolnikov did.

And "Cpt.Hammer will save us?" Such a twist. He should be saving them, yes, despite being such a dick. He restores order, and any order is better than chaos, as anyone who lived through chaos - war, civil unrest etc., could testify. But Cpt.Hammer is paralyzed with fear - he didn't get any resistance for so long it took one blow to push him over, send him into a frenzy of panic. Social commentary again, and not the very flattering one. Make of it what you will.

You know what, in the end, until he fired that Death Ray, I even started to come around on Cpt.Hammer, saw some hope for him. Penny was getting through to him a bit. His song to homeless had some good bits along with obnoxious stuff. And he too could totally get character growth in the sequel. Please?...

Writers cameos were great! And the groupies had a gay guy among them - nice touch, 'couse why not? :)

Great philosophical study here, this musical is almost like an essay. Something like "Chain" in Buffy-8. And Mutant Enemy doing Grrr... Arrggh? Bring it on!
Did anyone get the sense that part three had a bit of a Rocky Horror tribute in it? The scene that segues from Captain Hammer's song into Dr. Horrible freezing him is very similar to the climax of Rocky Horror, with Frank's big song getting cut off by the evil Riff Raff, there to kill him with his ray gun. They even placed it in a theatre.

Very cool, Joss.
I've read a few comments above about stories needing resolutions and what not. I personally see a story with a resolution often as completely fake (there are exceptions, naturally). Life doesn't just stop after a story ends, the people keep on living and doing things, so any serious "ending" just doesn't ring true. An end to a story, for me, is one where you know life for those characters will carry on, in whatever form that might be.
David and Marti. Hilarious parody of (I'm guessing) Fox News.

I think you can just make this "of the news".
The death of a beloved character is a SHORTCUT.

Sorry to take your quote out of context, WCityMike, but it leaped out at me. I wasn't sad that Penny died, but that her death killed Dr. Horrible. He was the beloved character for me. Felicia did a fine job playing the good-girl archetype, but in my estimation that's all it was. The character didn't change, didn't grow, and was therefore, expendable. The innocent catalyst caught between two warring factions.

I'm a little surprised no one mentioned, unless I missed it in over 1,000 posts since Act I, something Neil was doing. He had a nervous eye blink/twitch that was integral to the character; Michael Chekhov calls it the psychological gesture. I was so immersed in Act III last night in the first viewing, I didn't notice. But I'm 99.9% sure that twitch was completely gone. Brilliant touch.
For me, all the character deaths - with Penny's only the latest, 'cause there will be more to come in Dollhouse, etc. - do not add up to self-parody. The worlds that Joss creates are dangerous ones even if they have the laugh out loud funny in them. They are weird, perilous generic hybrids of horror-thriller-scifi-drama-comedy-etc. This is the treacherous sandbox he (and we) play in. Asking him not to kill characters in a supervillain/superhero piece such as "Horrible" seems absurd to me. Not having a death or two in the Horribleverse would be like not having mob-ordered killings in The Sopranos. Was David Chase a hack because of Christopher and Adrianna and the countless others? Or was it the world those characters inhabited?

Now, if the issue is the *kinds* of characters he kills off, I still am not sure that we have a "rote" or "self-parody" pattern emerging. We have patterns. There are the sweet, (relatively) innocent characters (Tara, Joyce, Fred) and the not purely sweet but still beloved characters (Cordy, Jenny) and we have the characters who die who have long, complex histories of sweet mixed with rather problematic behavior (Wesley, Anya). We have heroes who die (Buffy) and we have antiheroes-cum-heroes who die (Spike). There are a lot of deaths, but at least in my opinion, they are not a "trick." They matter. They evoke strong feelings. Witness all the heat in this thread. Very little of the complaints here are born of "yawn, whatever." Most of all, these deaths properly belong to these high stakes worlds. These are not shows about doctors or lawyers. These are shows about vampires and slayers and supervillains and heroes and people in space fighting against rampaging evil remnants of humanity.

Now, if the issue is in the way these deaths are set up, or the reactions they cause, or whatever, well, I suddenly don't have the energy to go there. Maybe someone else will pick that up. (I'm too tired from a tossing and turning night after Horrible. Yeah, it got to me.) All I'll say is that artists become known for certain traits, patterns, color schemes, brush strokes, pet tropes. To some observers such characteristic traits might become self-parody. It's all in the eye of the beholder. I suppose some would decry Shakespeare for being a hack for all those deaths in his "tragedies." And for all those silly complex identity mix-ups in his "comedies." Snarky Shakespeare reference aside, I'm not trying to be obnoxious here and say that I'm-right-you're-wrong-whoever-you-are. I'm (tiredly) trying to articulate my personal belief that Penny's death was not a tired, old hacky bit of self-parodying trickery

All that said, a part of me is wondering along with GVH if Joss won't get blithely assigned the pusher-of-doom tag in Hollywood. That wouldn't mean that the tag would be correct (imo), but in Hollywood, catchphrases and silly-simple summations stick. In another thread on the front page of whedonesque, one of the producers at HIMYM (I believe) assigns Joss that tag. Kind of.

TonyaJ: great points, both of them. I, too, had noticed the eye twitch in the first two eps and what seemed like its absence in the third. Must verify.
I'm a little perplexed at people who think this death thing is getting cliched. People die. In real life, all the time. Again, it's a matter of honesty. And this death was so so different in tone to anything else we've seen from Whedon before, so it's not as if he's repeating old themes.
MattK, I must add a "bravo" to your "People die. In real life, all the time." How unfortunately do I know that to be true. Life is full of death. As we fervently make our cases and post our responses here, we're all heading inevitably towards that ourselves. Yikes.

[ edited by phlebotinin on 2008-07-19 17:22 ]
I think the moment at the end where he sings "a thing" is a role reversal. Previously Billy was real and Dr Horrible was the online/weblog character struggling for success and recognition. Now that's gone. "Dr Horrible is here" and Billy tries to cope with the reality of the monster he has become by blogging as his old self. But he is numb. Indeed if he wasn't, he couldn't be Dr Horrible. He'd just still be ineffectually insisting he had a PhD in Horribleness and getting cars thrown at his head. He couldn't kill Hammer. It was Penny's death that made his wish come true.

"With my Freeze Ray I will stop." Billy stops. Dr Horrible continues.

Brilliant. Thank you Joss.

[ edited by malcolm on 2008-07-19 17:31 ]
malcom: wow...I love your theory...that's the one that has resonated with me the most.
Okay, I've only just seen it...awesomeness and tears.
Composed a long comment re: the Whedon "trademark" of killing a character, most of which was then said (better) by phleb and MattK. I agree completely with those comments.

I will add that this refrain reminds me of something palehorse wrote on the flickr group recently about how the media pushes stories:

Sadly, we'll see a total replay of all the uproar again on Sunday morning in all the news wrap-ups. And then on Monday we'll see the news media talking about the Sunday shows and their talking about it. Then they'll say it's a story "that won't go away." I really hate the way the pundits create a story and then keep talking about the story they have created . . .


It strikes me that we perpetuate this death "cliche" by singling out that one element inecessantly, shriven of context and purpose. I don't even notice the fact of "Joss killing," in and of itself, until people start talking about the "Joss trademark," the "rote killing," the addiction to unhappy endings, etc. I notice whether it was a powerful moving story, or wasn't.
I thought it was perfect. It was the perfect satisfying back story of how a bullied science-geek shred his soul and became the villain whose name will be used by mothers everywhere to scare their children into behaving at bedtime.

Personally, I gave up any hope of Billy getting Penny in Act I - when he was torn between actually talking to the girl or stealing the wonderflonium for the partial purpose of freezing time long enough to think of what to say so he could talk to the girl. The other purpose would be acceptance into the ELE and all that follows quo-wise. But in Acts I and II Billy is obviously straddling the fence between evil intent and evil doing. And IMO he couldn't have made the evil leap alone.

That Billy was bullied by Captain Hammer seems to have informed his predilection towards evil. If you read the online comic at the Dark Horse website (which, by the way I immediately took as inspiration for Bad Horse) shows this abuse going back to their shared childhood. Yet the Dr.'s motivation is not revenge until he is profoundly provoked - and even then (as others have noted) he appears to hesitate. So whether he could have been redeemed or not is worthy of consideration. But all of Penny's love (should he have gotten it) couldn't make him change toward good unless he made a fundamental choice. One he was unable to make - to kill.

So the Captain inadvertently made that choice for him - killing Penny, though of course Dr. Horrible is still culpable and feels responsible. That she - again - mistakes the situation - with her dying words his despair is annealed, cauterized.
So in the course of about 30 seconds, it goes from being a somewhat sweetly subversive live-action cartoon, to a tragedy.

When I saw NPH's comment that he couldn't wait to find out what happens next, I assumed that meant it ended in a way that invited further story-telling, but to paraphrase some movie or other, I didn't see THIS coming. But that is the genius that is Joss. Even when you know the blast is coming, he always hides the dynamite in the place it doesn't occur to you to look.

So now we have growth potential for both protagonist and antagonist. Each has experienced something new - Billy the pain of loss, Capt. Hammer the pain of defeat, not to mention the pain of pain. I see them both emerging as more layered characters, and the battle between them will take on new texture. Each will blame the other for Penny's death. Does anyone else see the parallel here with Faith and the killing of the deputy mayor. Bill has caused a death and now is fully embracing the evil. Will he find a way back to the light - and Capt. Hammer, will he surprise us by coming back with a new depth and do something completely unexpected? It's Joss, count on it.

See, what we have here is the first chapter in an arc!

Okay, I am going on vacation for a week to a place where there is no internet connection. (Stop hyperventilating guys, you'd think I'd mentioned he who must not be named or something). Nice of Joss and co. to release the final episode before I left. Don't do anything fun here 'til I get back.

Cheers.
I prefer the term "Whedomicide"

And it's never a trick. Joss loves his characters. That's why we do. A death in the Jossverse is ALWAYS about what it does to the other characters:-

Jenny's death was about Giles. Tara's was for Willow's arc. Joyce's was for Buffy's Gift. Fred's was for Wesley. Wash's was for Zoe.

I'm still waiting for Anya's to play out for Xander (but then I've not read much of 8 yet)
the online comic at the Dark Horse website (which, by the way I immediately took as inspiration for Bad Horse) shows this abuse going back to their shared childhood

Huh? I just re-read it because you said this, and I can't for the life of me see what you're talking about. Where is it?
Something else I noticed but haven't seen mentioned anywhere is Penny mouthing the words "Billy, buddy" under her breath right after he sings them himself. After he sings his relief that she is not there to see his crime. This as she stands up from her hiding spot. And it is because of her shock at seeing Billy, buddy / Dr. Horrible that she is still standing shortly thereafter when she is impaled.

But whether in shock, or why-I-don't-know, she behaves toward Billy as Billy, then dies. But I am sure there is a moment of recognition there. Don't you see it too?
Jenny's death was about Giles. Tara's was for Willow's arc. Joyce's was for Buffy's Gift. Fred's was for Wesley. Wash's was for Zoe.

You do realize, though, that this precisely is why so many people rebel against it when it happens?

Half the backlash comes from a "so-and-so wasn't just a plot pawn to move another character's emotional story forward, she/he was an important character unto her/himself, so how dare you" perspective.
The Captain Comic showes one kid (who I assumed to be Hammer) reporting the science kid (who I assumed to be Billy) to the authorities. But on second read, I realize those probably are the kids in the classroom he is addressing.

[ edited by napua on 2008-07-19 17:52 ]
Just watched it all straight through again. I do think its unfair to call it a a trope or cliche or whatever because Penny died. We may as well complain about "oh, there goes Joes with JOKES again...". You have to expect that great writers will use every tool in their toolbox (sometimes the hammer ;)) to provoke the feelings/thoughts they are going for. My comments upthread point out how astonishingly well this worked even in such a short runtime. It was a gut punch, but it was brilliantly done and this isn't Penny's story. Any character who isn't Billy/Dr. Horrible is going to have every chance of anything under the sun happening to them. They are characters in their own right, but they are their to serve the story and main character. Thats one of the things thats so great about Joss & co. (Jed, Maurissa, Zach, take bows!); characters who, in lesser stories, may have been flat and just for effect are fully realized. You actually get upset when Penny (who really is an archetype of sweetness and light) dies. Brilliant stuff. We get upset because these potentially flat charcters also get to live and breathe, not just our protagonists.
No, I re-read the comic. I know where the comic is, I even have a print-out. My point was I can't see in it what you're talking about.
I'm a little perplexed at people who think this death thing is getting cliched. People die. In real life, all the time.


It strikes me that we perpetuate this death "cliche"...


I think we always point that out because it moves us. Sure, the most important thing about the story is if it's a powerful story, or not, but I think that goes without saying, once we reacted so strongly to a characters death. If the story wasn't powerful, we wouldn't be talking about the deaths in it with such passion, I think.

We know people die. We now life sucks. But still, that moves us, because we care about the characters. So I think this kind of 'hate' after a character's death is normal. And after one day, we are all (almost all, anyway...) seeing it with less emotion and realizing that it was important to make the story so good.

And Joss is the master doing this... making us care about the people in the story. And that's why we have such strong feelings about everything he does.
Sorry, Bix. My bad. I clarified my post above. I mistook a couple kids in the comic for young Billy and Hammer.
Actually, that's an interesting interpretation, and now that you say it, I'm wondering if the suggestion indeed is there intentionally.
Wow, my stomach is still turning from that frightful turn of events. It just seemed so cheerful in the first act, that I expected that to continue and not spiral into an abyss of despair. This musical became a lot deeper than I thought it was going to be, so I almost drowned at Billy's last moment on camera. But looking at it as a whole, you can see the progression of the story and how the darkness slowly infiltrates. It's still giving me the shivers.
"Half the backlash comes from a "so-and-so wasn't just a plot pawn to move another character's emotional story forward, she/he was an important character unto her/himself, so how dare you" perspective."

I agree. They seem surprised by the concept that the Jossverse is filled with good looking sock puppets under His control.

The clue's in the name people; Jossverse.
Zeitgeist, theonetruebix - please to be avoiding squid pie
please to be avoiding squid pie

Good advice, to be sure.
Oh! Stupid me! I should have remembered, it's a Whedon show. Of course the cute girl's gonna bite it... :(

The last part was definitely best.
I would love to read comments from anyone whose first viewing of Dr. Horrible was all three acts straight through, all at once (like it was shown at the press screenings.)

I wonder if those viewers come away feeling differently about the experience than those of us who saw each act individually, and had time to think, reflect (and yes, obsess) about the characters and storyline between each act viewing.
"I think the moment at the end where he sings "a thing" is a role reversal."

Hey, that makes sense. I'm a little less confused now.

"People die. In real life, all the time."

Yes, but every relationship in real life does not end in a tragic, untimely death that makes the other person go all dark and scary. I love that Joss is willing to kill of characters. It makes his stories so much more intense and believable. However, you can't deny that it's starting to get predictable which characters are going to die. And when it gets predictable, it loses it's impact.
The dread of another delay on "Dollhouse" is pretty much the main thing preventing me from wishing there were a second strike.
I'm beginning to think this is our most commented thread ever.
And yet ironically, Joss wrote Buffy as a balance for all the cute girls who were biting it in horror movies.

Is there really a problem if we recognise Joss's penmanship? Isn't it why we tune in?

And plenty of people on this thread (myself included) didn't see it coming

[ edited by malcolm on 2008-07-19 18:21 ]
I just checked Wikipedia's Dr. Horrible article and saw that they no longer have the tracklist with song names listed. Does anyone know why they were removed?
I'm beginning to think this is our most commented thread ever.


It is of scary length, yes. And to think I read every single comment on here. I'm starting to wonder if I'm sane ;).

In years to come, new fans will see Dr Horrible, and they will love it, and they will remember it. But we were the ones who got to live it.


Yeah, that's the same way I feel about Serenity or the early seasons of Buffy (before I started getting spoiled a lot), AlanD. The fandom makes the experience more instense and that's certainly also the case in Dr. Horrible, with its well-timed 'appointments' every other day. As an event, it worked extremely well.
Hey, if killing a nice character is what it takes to get a new Whedon show, I'll all for it. So what if it is his trademark or not, a good show is a good show. And no, I didn't see it coming for Penny, while I should have, so Joss can still suprise me with his "trick" (and reading the various posts here, I'm not alone).
Does it get old? No, not for me. As long as you can't predict it.
raisedByMongrels: if you wanted to, it could be one of those new TV games -like Drink-Along-A-Dallas.

"Guess-the-Whedomicide"

Each contestant names a character in a new JossShow most likely to meet an untimely end. Extra points for naming the manner of their demise.

[ edited by malcolm on 2008-07-19 18:31 ]
And when it gets predictable, it loses it's impact.


I've gotta tell you, my punched gut disagrees strongly with you. Its not that it happens that's problematic, its if its done in a poorly executed way that leads to zero emotional resonance.
And plenty of people on this thread (myself included) didn't see it coming


If Dr. Horrible had been sold as a musical tragedy then I might have of it. But it wasn't. Act III Revenge of the Joss was probably one of the best things Whedon has ever filmed. I am amazed that I was so emotionally effected by events that were only 45 minutes long and by characters I have never seen before. Usually it takes a couple of seasons for me to get like that. Joss and co did it under an hour. You gotta wonder what Dollhouse will be like.

Also this can never be repeated. We as a fandom are now truly global. We watched a new Joss project at the exact same time all over the world. That's an incredible first for the fandom. Kudos to those involved with Dr. Horrible, you have my upmost admiration.
I am the only one who was a little disappointed that we never got to see the Captain Hammer statue?
Simon: I saw the Billy Budd connection, too, which works -- see above. Death of innocence, found guilty incorrectly... it works.

GVH: I like how you referenced Joss doing a "bait and switch" -- is that how a lot of people feel, like Moist? He wanted Bait, we took the bait of the humor and wound up with a switch with Penny getting killed (which many have suggested isn't really a switch but a Whedon thing).

It's fun to read all these posts!!!!!!!!!
Joss doesn't kill, he tells a story. Think of the most popular television shows from this past year. Got one? It could be Lost, 24, Torchwood, anything with gravity. Now think of one that didn't kill someone. Can you name one? How about movies? Because people die.

I like the story. Sure, I was a little upset when it happened. I was disappointed their love story wasn't resolved to my liking. It wasn't' my story to tell. It works so beautifully. Thank you ME and the Whedon group and everyone else that brought us this classic tale of villainy.
And when it gets predictable, it loses it's impact.


I've gotta tell you, my punched gut disagrees strongly with you. Its not that it happens that's problematic, its if its done in a poorly executed way that leads to zero emotional resonance.


Rationally (is this spelled right?), I'd agree with RaisedByMongrels, but my gut agrees with zeitgeist
Couldn't wait to get to my computer this morning to watch Act III. Curled up in my chair with my coffee, already a grin on my face as the itunes download chugged along.
Then--what am I watching? Wait...what happened to the happy, the funny, the light?
Like almost everyone here, I was suckered in and then gutted. Wow.
And ouch.
Sadness and yes, disappointment. A completely foreign feeling for me when vising the Jossverse. I felt it was such a jarring tonal shift; it seemed disconnected from what had come before. Then they really and truly killed Penny! And Billy really became Dr. Horrible!
To be honest, I didn't like it at all.
I came here immediately to read if anyone else felt what I did. Took me almost an hour to read the comments at that point.
(Thanks, Saje, for "Circle of Black Beauty". I actually did laugh out loud at that, and that helped lift my mood from the dark, bad place.)

Then I watched all three Acts together, and wowza, what a huge difference!
They flow together perfectly, not jarring at all. ("Was I crazy this morning," I wondered)
Still painful, but no longer disappointing. Far from it.
Beautiful, heart-breaking, funny, smart, amazing. I can't articulate better than a list of adjectives at the moment.
Brilliant, just brilliant.
NPH blew me away. Nathan and Felicia were wonderful. Everything about this was great.
I don't have anything to add that others haven't already (more eloquently) stated.

Thank you to everyone involved with this. It was, it is, just fantastic.
Can't wait for the DVD.
Tonya: "I'm a little surprised no one mentioned, unless I missed it in over 1,000 posts since Act I, something Neil was doing. He had a nervous eye blink/twitch that was integral to the character; Michael Chekhov calls it the psychological gesture. I was so immersed in Act III last night in the first viewing, I didn't notice. But I'm 99.9% sure that twitch was completely gone. Brilliant touch."

I mentioned it after Act II - though I noticed it in Act I. And I didn't see it in Act III. It was the perfect touch, as malcolm put so succinctly, because, "Billy stops. Dr Horrible continues."

"phlebotinin: "There are a lot of deaths, but at least in my opinion, they are not a 'trick.' They matter."

Yes. I'm gonna quote from UnpluggedCrazy's email to me last night, because I like it: Joss is not a "one-trick Bad Horse."

If anything, life itself is a one-trick Bad Horse, because that sucker's coming (Mr. Blue-eyed Death) and he's aimed at you. Much of popular culture's entertainment helps you forget this annoying little Truth, but I think the good stuff helps you remember in a way that makes living more resonant.

Killing the innocent in fiction has a lot of layers (just like pie) - the death of the innocent represents the Death of Innocence that everyone must experience, and it also represents that in terms of death, we all are, ultimately innocent - we are all born innocent and yet born to to die, and it's not a question of "deserving it." The death of the innocent is shorthand for "the death of each one of us" - and you need shorthand in fiction, especially a piece so compressed as this.

My blerg/blog is called "Everything Matters" from a quote from Robertson Davies - as are many of my favorite quotes - but I'm thinking of changing it to "Everything Happens" in honor of Joss and Co., and mainly because is is so {expletive deleted} good.

@Caroline - awww... great minds indeed.
Whedongeek said:
It's fun to read all these posts!!!!!!!!!


Hear hear. Gives me warm and fuzzy feelings, reminds me of the time when the Buffy Bronze was online! Great times, especially when Troll posted :D
I am the only one who was a little disappointed that we never got to see the Captain Hammer statue?


Wash: I think they captured him, you know? His essence
Kaylee: Looks sorta like a tool, don't he?
Wash: 'S kinda what I meant.

Dammit, zeitgeist, I was coming to make the reference and by the time I set myself up to type, you'd already done it.

The co-Arch-dukes of Awesome strike again!
you can't deny that it's starting to get predictable which characters are going to die

Well, when there are only three characters in which the viewer can invest, the choices are few -- especially in a 43-minute play.

But the point made above that some characters are there to serve the emotional development of the main characters has to be seen as key. Were we not emotionally engaged even with the subsidiary characters, we would never be able to engage fully with the emotional trajectory of the main character(s). NPH is phenomenal in this in his communication of a full range of emotion in carefully-selected but small facial expressions and gestures. But were it not for our engagement with the other characters, he might as well have been making faces in a mirror (almost). His acting would not have had nearly the impact.

Someone above criticized Joss for using shortcuts, but all storytellers use shortcuts. And if I can draw an analogy with painting, in which a good artist must carefully communicate a message with an economy of means, because s/he has only the one canvas (usually) to work with, the artist uses all sorts of shortcuts. Certain kinds of lines communicate certain affective qualities; colors have symbolism; the position of objects on the surface communicates power or depth; certain characters are recognizable for what they hold, or what they do, as shorthand for their identities (a male figure hanging on a cross, for example). Joss is just doing the same thing. The fact that we see these as so predictable is because we know Joss's work so well. We know the way he constructs a story; we know what colors he uses. If he were to change radically, some would also complain.

I'm with the person above who would like to know how someone who is generally unfamiliar with Joss's work and who sees all the three parts in one viewing would respond.

ETA: Jeez, there must be thirty posts since I began to write this.

[ edited by palehorse on 2008-07-19 18:46 ]
The co-Arch-dukes of Awesome strike again!


We need t-shirts ;). Can the Archdukes of Awesome open for Murder Rubicon? Ok, too much in-joke-ry ;). 518 does indeed seem like the longest thread.
I totally thought of Jayne's statue,too, zeitgeist. :-)

This IS kinda like the good ol' days. Numfar, do the Dance of Community Continuity! :-D
I agree with you MattK and to add to that: In a world where the top shows are multiple versions of CSI where every episode is based around an 'anonymous' (well from the few episodes I've seen we get about 2 minutes to care about the character) murder, we are complaining about Joss killing off a handful of major characters over the course of multiple projects? Are there any major characters in the Joss world who aren't beloved in some way? In most other shows/movies it is predictable... the character we don't care about is the one to kick it, that's how we 'know' who will/won't die... that's the cliche.

I know what I want to say here... but I'm having trouble with the right words. Anybody have a clue what I'm talking about?
I think we're forgetting the most important aspect of all this; all the cool new login names people can choose.

I'm thinking of changing to PinkPummeler, but I think it might be a euphemism
It went from incredibly campy and fun to realistic (in a weird way), and completely dark. We were all surprised by what is not almost a signature move. No happiness allowed. Because pain hurts so good! I was utterly blown away by Act III. I can't say much else, other than: I love the people who made this happen. Thank you to the cast and crew for giving us your work of love.
We watched a new Joss project at the exact same time all over the world. That's an incredible first for the fandom.

Really wonderful point, Simon.
palehorse and everyone else with similar sentiments, I just wanted to say thanks for working so hard to try to get into this. One of the things I think that keeps drawing me in on Joss' work (and one of the things his work helps reveal, to those open to it) is that in the end, being characters and not people, they're all in service to something else, whatever that something else towards which the artist is working, whatever experience it is they're seeking to put their audience through.

That somehow too often seems to get lost in the shuffle, the fact that this is precisely what artists do, and I think a number of people here have sort of been doing yeoman's work explaining it.
I'm with the person above who would like to know how someone who is generally unfamiliar with Joss's work and who sees all the three parts in one viewing would respond.

I don't know someone seeing all 3 acts at once, but about people unfamiliar with Joss's work, I created an orkut community for Dr. Horrible, and for my surprise, 80% of the people commenting there are non-Whedon fans (well, now they are...). It's been fun to discuss Dr. Horrible with them!
Thank you thank you thank you Joss and co. All three acts spectacular. I love the songs, especially from Act 2, but all 3 made me laugh, and sometimes cry simultaneously. How do you do that!?

=D
maxsummers, can you give us an idea of how they are responding?
maxsummers, what are non-Whedon fans saying? What's their general response?
I was heartbroken to see Penny become the innocent victim. Just this once, I really thought he was going to let us be happy.

Well hopefully poor Penny's demise will pave the way for Giles to ride a horse on-screen...or would that be Moist riding a Black Horse?

side note: I keep thinking, it's a good thing they didn't tap Joss to adapt Mama Mia for the silver screen.
I think Moist trying to stay on a horse would be comic gold. Well, maybe silver.
maxsummers, can you give us an idea of how they are responding?

Everybody loved so far. They are amazed with how catchy the songs are, and they had heard about Buffy and Joss, but didn't know he could write songs as well. Most of them came from Musical communities, 'cause I posted adds for Dr. Horrible in some of them, so they really appreciated the musical aspect of it.

They are quite surprised of how they loved the characters as well, considering they had so little time to 'know' them. And they are creating communities for the characters and stuff...

It was very funny to see them wait until 1 am for ACT 2 and ACT 3 with me, and to see how excited they were after each act.

Let me see... what else...

Also, the funny quotes are being quoted a lot. 'The hammer is my pennis' led to some strange posts! =P
I think Moist trying to stay on a horse would be comic gold. Well, maybe silver.

Bareback would be even funnier.
maxsummers, that's awesome. I hope the Horrible people (those horrible, horrible people) read far enough down in this thread to see that.
I watched all three acts in a row twice today now. (I had waited till I had all three before I showed it to my girlfriend, who adored it.)

It flows much more smoothly as one big 40 minutes special.

And how cool is it that we have a thread with this many comments about some new filmed online special. I am absolutely loving seeing so many disparate opinions and interpretations, especially now that we have had a little time to think about it. :) Honestly reading everyones opinions, just like back in the old Buffy/Angel/Firefly days may be just as much fun as watching the musical was.

I really hope that they make the sequel. I'm dying to see it. And if they don't, at the very least I hope that Joss does something with Neil Patrick Harris again in the future. I like How I Met Your Mother, but I really enjoyed seeing him flex a little bit more.

[ edited by rabid on 2008-07-19 19:08 ]
Oh, and they were surprised with Penny's death more than I, I guess. They were all like 'I did NOT see this coming!' and the 'I'm sad, I wanna cry', just like us... =P

[ edited by maxsummers on 2008-07-19 19:09 ]
It was like... the Star Wars prequilogy, only without all the suck.

How to make a true villain in 50 minutes or less.
Wow. A Whedon story where a romantic couple (Doc and Penny, not Jerk and Penny btw), with the potential of really being right for each other, met with the tragic, sudden death of one of them. Uh huh, yup, BIG shocker...

I have all kind of gripes, for a variety of reasons, why I didn't agree with the deaths in Serenity, but the death in Dr. Horrible is all kinds of brilliant. Just works on so many levels.

Do evil and see oneself as super powerful, and guess what? Things go wrong. Unintended consequences. Play with power and it can backfire... literally. Also, the twist of losing the thing he loved which then made it possible to get the thing he craved, well, that's classic, lyrical storytelling. Sad, but it makes sense and hits a psychic "true spot" in a way that the Serenity deaths never did... at least for me.

Utterly brilliant and very satisfying. Tis art.

Joss... do more please.
Thanks for the report, maxsummers. It's fascinating to read of newbies' responses. Do you think this will cause them to check out Joss's other stuff? And maybe watch Dollhouse?

You know, from the press reviews of "Horrible" before it premiered, I did not get a "tragic vibe" at all. Either those lucky press folks were keeping us spoiler-free (I remember reading that they were made to promise not to reveal certain key things) or they didn't get the pathos part or were unmoved by it. The latter seems really unlikely. But sometimes people don't expect much from genre, especially critics.

[ edited by phlebotinin on 2008-07-19 19:17 ]
Aw man, I definitely didn't expect Penny's death, or any death, actually -- the Dr Horrible world had seemed too cartoony for such a definitive event (I mean, didn't DH get hit by a car thrown by Captain Hammer, but only ended up with a swollen noggin?).

After skimming these 500-odd comments and letting my thoughts simmer, however, it does seem like this is the logical conclusion to DH not reining in (ahem) his jealous rage (but why no second chances? and what if an equally innocent bystander had been impaled instead?).

So yes, here we have an origin story, the genesis of DH, not an offbeat love story -- I guess if it were something throwaway and sappy, it would have somewhat diminished the genesis of this storytelling form, wouldn't it?

Many thanks to theonetruebix for pointing out DH's true state in the last shot -- he's not blogging in costume anymore, I wonder what that implies. I was really confused by that quick shot -- this show may only be 45 minutes long, but it's definitely not popcorn entertainment!

With all that talk of super-duper, never-before-in-history DVD extras, perhaps there'll be more Horribleness in store? Neil Patrick Harris = amazing. Nathan Fillion = astonishing. Felicia Day = so sweetly vulnerable (caught The Guild -- great work there too!). Half-expected her to have some villain-involved past/present/future (uh, scratch the future). Supporting cast (horse included) = awesome.

To the Whedons: thank you, and congratulations!!

[ edited by starbreez on 2008-07-19 19:18 ]
Do you think this will cause them to check out Joss's other stuff? And maybe watch Dollhouse?

Yeah! I convinced some of them to watch Firefly and Dollhouse! Buffy is harder, 'cause you know... 7 seasons... but it's a start! =]

Oh, and they are also watching The Guild...

[ edited by maxsummers on 2008-07-19 19:20 ]
It's very good to hear musical fans digging this, maxsummers. Thanks for letting us know!

I'm now in the process of writing a review of Dr. Horrible. Usually, I don't have any trouble writing movie reviews. But as an invested fan, it's proving pretty hard to strike the right, slightly-detached tone needed without being a fanboy (which would be, like, unprofessional ;)). It's also hard to be insightfull-enough-without-spoiling. That usually isn't an issue, but much of the beauty and things that resonate in Dr. Horrible only get revealed in Act III. I'll struggle on, though :).

jeez, this thread just wont. stop. growing. :)

ETA:
You know, from the press reviews of "Horrible" before it premiered, I did not get a "tragic vibe" at all. Either those lucky press folks were keeping us spoiler-free (I remember reading that they were made to promise not to reveal certain key things) or they didn't get the pathos part or were unmoved by it. The latter seems really unlikely. But sometimes people don't expect much from genre, especially critics.


Y'know, I've been wondering about that as well. As a fan I'm now struggling if I should point out in my review, that Dr. Horrible goes through a whole spectrum of emotions and has some good drama in there too (only, more eloquent, like ;)), because it might lessen the impact. On the other hand, if I hadn't been a big old fanboy, that would have not been an issue. Commenting on the tone of a piece is not spoiling. It's actually rather essential in most reviews, I'd say. So it's quite a mystery to me, why most reviews we were reading beforehand failed to mention the fact that it has a very dramatic climax and denouement. I offer no ready explanations.

[ edited by GVH on 2008-07-19 19:26 ]
Extremely satisfying ending. What would have made it perfect would have been getting rid of that last shot. I know what Joss was doing and was trying to say about humanity and his vunerability, however for me personally, it would have been so much more of a gut wrenchingly poetic closing if Dr Horrible had lost all sense of his soul and just been bad. No chance of redemption. Just evil.
I'd add to starbreez's thanks: thank you to the Whedons and one Tancharoen! It's going to be mighty unwieldy to write "the WhedonsTancharoenverse" from now on. Perhaps we'll inevitably use "Whedonverse." But still. Thanks to all of the team, including the very talented person (triple threat: singer-actor-writer) not named "Whedon."

Edited to add: I keep checking the status of "Horrible" at the U.S. itunes. It's still rated the number one "TV" series. Acts 1,2, and 3 are in the top #2-4 spots of top-selling episodes. For the last couple of days there's been this non-"Horrible" episode occupying the #1 spot. I want it gone! Gone! I want "Horrible" to dominate completely!

[ edited by phlebotinin on 2008-07-19 19:26 ]
Its funny that you say that QingTing, I thought the same thing...if Darth Vader was dating Penny, I might have bought the whole turning to the dark side thing.

After that origin, I could see Dr. Horrible doing some pretty horrible things...believably! Nothing supports the depravity of a villain like a heaping helping of lost love with a side of self pity.
How? Bzuh? How did I watch lo, these many years, the work of Joss Whedon and still get sucker punched?

He does it to us, he does, every time. We forget because he distracts us with shiny things, he does.

And he dragged his family into the whole sordid mess. It's like a Family Rainy Day Craft Project of EVIL. The Gilded Macaroni Art of DOOM.

And yet, we still put it on the refrigerator of our hearts. ::sigh::
phlebotinin (et al.) - I was there for the press screening and right after it ended, the whole "it's a tragedy" bit is the part that Joss kindly pleaded with us not to reveal. For obvious reasons. And yes, it seems everyone did keep their promise. I mean, who would wrong the Joss-man?

Also, do you have any idea how difficult it was to keep "the hammer is my penis" line under wraps? You try knowing about it for a week and not saying anything. Suckage! Glad to hear the happy chants and rants from all. Well deserved success-age!
...I so should've expected that. Every time! He gets me every time!

When's the next one coming out?
Just watched it (a little behind due to limited internet access) and I'm upset. I can't tell if it is because I've watched the whole thing and now its over (for now....? please?) or because WHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHY did Penny die and make Dr. Horrible actually Horrible? I don't like NPH evil. It's not right. (Can she have a miraculous, secret recovery and become Dr. H's new nemesis

That being ranted, I loved it! The whole thing was amazing and totally lived up to all the anticipation, which was a lot. I thnk Act II had my favorite songs and dialogue. Thanks for continuing your awesomeness, Joss & co. I'll hope for more webisodes and the miraculous, secret recovery of Penny as Dr. Horrible's new super-heroine nemesis...What?

PS Is Dead Bowie a Bowie poser or is Mr. Bowie hiding his E.L.E. alter ego from the public?
Thanks for your first person reportage on the press screening, Kat Jetson. I love that no-one wronged the Joss-man. GVH, I'd urge you to not reveal that it's a tragedy in your review. The unexpected gut punch is so powerful, at least imo. But it wouldn't hurt, I think, to describe it as a beautiful blend of humor and pathos, i.e., most certainly not a bit of meaningless fluff. I don't think adding "pathos" gives anything away. We (well, I) already felt a little twinge of sorrow in Act 1.

yo-saff-bridge: unless I'm going mad, the credits say that Dead Bowie is played by Jed Whedon. Am I right?
it would have been so much more of a gut wrenchingly poetic closing if Dr Horrible had lost all sense of his soul and just been bad. No chance of redemption. Just evil.


I disagree :). What this does, is show the dichotomy of the Dr. Horrible/Billy persona, as someone on this thread already pointed out. First Dr. Horrible was his 'blog'/fantasy persona, and Billy was his public face. After what happens to Penny, Billy is now trapped, numbed and - at the moment? - powerless inside the public, evil, Dr. Horrible persona. Plus, it's just a lot more gut-wrenching to see that final glimpse of the character we grew to love through all three Acts. Nah, I would certainly not have changed that.

Also: thanks for explaining that, Kat Jetson! And yes, phlebotinin, I'm already reconsidering. I might use an equivalent of 'pathos' (I write in Dutch :)) for explanatory purposes. Or I might just hint at 'inversion of expectations' and 'flipping of character archetypes' (which I do already) or use the 'three layers'-bit from Act II and hint that that resonates even more, later on. I'll get there in a non-spoilery way, in the end :).
Death in Joss's work is never going to lose it's impact for me because he makes me feel for his characters and when someone I care about dies I ache, I get fukking mad and I lose a part of myself and then must discover who I was, who I am and who I will be once I realize I either move on or die too . And there is also the fact that when someone I care about aches with loss my heart breaks even more.
GVH, are you writing for a magazine or a website (or both)?
(Still reading through this thread, almost at the end...)

For any cosplayers out there, it seems like welding goggles are the closest match to Dr. Horrible's. A quick google search can find you some very cheaply that you can then modify... I've also been looking at instructables.

[ edited by MattK on 2008-07-19 19:39 ]
barboo ~ Does anyone else see the parallel here with Faith and the killing of the deputy mayor.

I've been thinking of that the whole time I've been reading this thread - which took forever. Tons and tons of posts.

Billy's decent into evil does seem much like Faith's run. I don't think he really wants to be evil - not deep in his heart - but I think now he feels that's all he is.

I wish I wasn't so tired right now so I could explain it better. I had to work early this morning and I didn't sleep well last night so I'm pretty much all fire bad. tree pretty right now.

It didn't help that I made the mistake of watching Act III right before I went to work. I had to fight tears all the way to work and I've been walking around in shock all day.

I haven't gotten a chance to see Act III for a second time yet but now that I've had more time to think I will say it ended the way it had to end. It works really well for the story - though it doesn't work so well for my emotional state of mind.

It speaks volumns about the talent of Joss and the gang that we feel so powerful moved by characters we've only known for 45 minutes - well minus all the time spent watching and rewatching Acts I & II the last few days.

Well, I think I'm rambling way too much so I'm going to go now. Hopefully I'll be able to post more articulate thoughts after I've had some real sleep.
Kat Jetson, when they showed the entire thing, did they have the opening credits attached to every act, or did you get to see it straight through?
theonetruebix: It ran with credits at the beginning only, not before each individual act. I feel incredibly lucky to have seen it altogether like that on a big screen. Although, I imagine however many people Ballroom 20 at Comic Con holds to capacity will be just as lucky. It's going to be so hard to get into that panel. I'm hoping my Dr. Horrible outfit will work a little magic. :)
The panel is in Ballroom 20, but the screening is in Room 6B.
Re: comments about the tragic end and a character death being the usual Joss trick.
Not here, absolutely not in this context. This musical is a social commentary, a distilled version, of situations replayed all over the world all over history. Rebels who start as idealists attack the establishment, innocent people get killed, and the new powers are not better than the old ones.
Times when such situations have a happy ending can be counted on fingers.
Having a tragic end to this story is not a trick, it's extremely realistic.
If it was a usual Jossverse romance story and nothing more - yes, we might say it would be too much and predictable, to break the chance of happiness, to kill someone to break someone's heart. Romances, relationships do have happy endings regularly.
But this kind of thing, here? Almost never.
"He had a nervous eye blink/twitch that was integral to the character; Michael Chekhov calls it the psychological gesture. I was so immersed in Act III last night in the first viewing, I didn't notice. But I'm 99.9% sure that twitch was completely gone. Brilliant touch."

I only just noticed this, I saw it first in the laundromat scene with Captain Hammer. Very cool.
Krusher, I'm a critic for a medium-sized cultural website. There's a link to my buffy review on the same website in my profile.

Also, I hadn't thought about it before, but yes, I do think Billy's descent is comparable to that of Faith on some levels. Nice thinking, barboo & Charisma69!
GVH, I think we know each other from way back! If memory serves me well, we saw a movie together with SMG in it..
phlebotinin: Yep, Dead Bowie was played by Jed. I was more curious about D.B. as a character though. I mean what a backstory he must have,weather he really is supposed to be Bowie or just likes wear the make-up and glittey clothes and be evil. Either way, I'd like to see a comic or two. Anyone else?
LOL, Krusher, you're right (although that was a blink-and-you'll-miss-it SMG part ;))! What a nice coincidence :)
Firstly I've just got to say that the quality of this is amazing. You can go back and look at 5 second clips and be amazed at some trick of the phrasing, the acting or the music that you missed.

I was totally fooled about what was coming because I got so engrossed in Captain Hammer's speech/song about Heroes. It was a strange mixture of good and bad sounding very much like an adolescent. I think that, together with what followed, it was making the point that Captain Hammer had never truly grown up because he had never felt pain and dealt with pain.

I do think that's something that Joss believes and wants to write about. He does it talking about the thousand emotional cuts that high school inflicts and about the death of a beloved character, even the death of a parent. Joss creates characters we love more so we feel it more when they die.

There's also more of a contrast between Joss and the general produce of Hollywood. Our local fan group here has got rather bored with Hollywood films/TV as too saccharine and we have developed a taste for Chinese/Japanese movies where there is a genuine tension over who is going to live or die. If you think Joss kills too many characters then I would advise you not to come within a million miles of these! You might also want to consider avoiding the legend of King Arthur, the legend of Robin Hood and that play about Romeo and Juliet.

I'm not sure Joss always gets it right, particularly after reading about the pain experienced by some Tara fans, but I don't want Joss to start playing safe. I want him to keep pushing himself and keeping us all on the edge.
"I am the only one who was a little disappointed that we never got to see the Captain Hammer statue?"

Before the statue was "unveiled", I was wondering how they'd made one on such a low budget. I was wondering if they'd talked an over-eager arts student into making one for them. :)
GVH, What are the odds! (ok, this is a Whedon fanbase, but heh) Left my email info in my profile if you want to talk old times sometime :D Anyway, off to watch Stargate Atlantis (Jewel time!)
It's been a little while now since I watched Act III, and while I appreciate the genius of the social commentary and blah blah blah, I'm just angry and depressed about it. I have a brand-spanking-new Dr. Horrible t-shirt sitting here, and it just makes me sad now. It's not fun anymore. I know the vast majority of posters love the suckerpunch, but dangit, I'm TIRED of being punched in the gut.
that play about Romeo and Juliet

A play in which, I should point out, one of the very first things you hear is Chorus telling you that the title characters are going to die. And yet you still get towards the end wrapped up in their story.
Y'know, I'm sorry. After I posted my evaluation of each act above, I went back and read some of your comments, and was befuddled. Clearly most of you were seeing something I wasn't. So I decided to try and see it myself. I've watched Act III again. I've watched the whole piece, front to back, with the only breaks being the time it took to move between acts. I've read every comment on this thread until the time I started posting my own.

First, I'd like to address a couple of the comments. Once again, I find myself having to take issue with the whole "Joss gives us what we need, not what we want" thing. That sort of deifying incantation may satisfy some of you, but it doesn't satisfy me. I knew, even before I started to read the comments in depth, that at least one person would say that, followed by several "Oh yeah, that's right" replies. Seriously, is this the Whedonesque version of the Apostle's Creed? I believe in Joss the Father Almighty, maker of what we need and not what we want... It gets to be a little much after a while, people. Joss does not know what we need.

Also, whoever drew some sort of parallel between this and the writer's strike...are you kidding me?! I've tried to make sense of this association in any number of ways, and at a more detailed level, it simply doesn't work. Try it and see.

Now, onto "Dr. Horrible" itself. I must side with those who not only noticed a drastic shift in tone between the second and third acts, but found it inexcusable. It's not that I have any objection on principle to something moving from a comically parodic beginning to a dark conclusion, or vice versa. But a piece has to remain true to its characters to accomplish that transition, and it also has to maintain some sort of internal balance. This did neither.

From the beginning, it was painfully obvious that as things stood, the doctor didn't have what it took to become a supervillain, and that Captain Hammer was not a real superhero. Yet they both felt like they existed (or in Dr. Horrible's case, should exist) in those respective modes, and were both acting that way. In short, they were mirrors of each other. The ending should either have centered with both of them giving into their feelings and quitting their respective roles (which would have been more comic but more fluffy), or had them both find motivated reasons from within their personas to really become what everyone else thought they were (Penny's death could have been the perfect catalyst for this darker and more satisfying ending).

Instead, what we have is half of the first and half of the second...and the worse halves in both cases. Captain Hammer is revealed as anything but a hero, even "in his own way" -- he's just a self-absorbed, whiny coward who won't accept the consequences for his actions and goes whining to Mommy the first time he gets hurt. The story leaves us with no hope that he will ever learn about the harder side of being a hero, the sacrifice and pain involved...or that he will ever reassume that mantle out of necessity, to prevent others from being as devastated as he was.

Dr. Horrible, meanwhile, recognizes his complicity in Penny's death. Trapped in the narrow hero/villain framework, he does the only thing he can...having helped to kill a complete innocent, villainy is the only thing left for him. (I do remain astonished, however, that his assassination attempt gone wrong was still enough to get him into the Evil League of Evil. Those guys must have no standards.) Yet even with all that, the end makes it clear that he is still not a villain underneath, and suffers profoundly.

In short, what we have here is a story with no hero or villain. We only have a coward, an emotionally devastated person, and a seeming denial of the whole hero/villain dynamic. I want to be clear -- what I see here is not Joss saying "There aren't comic book heroes and villains in the world...things are more complicated than that on both sides." That I would sympathize with. Instead, I don't see a real hero or a real villain, of the comic-book variety or any other, anywhere in this story. That's just WRONG.

Though I appreciate "Dr. Horrible" more than I did before, now that I've seen all the little connections (some of which people in this thread alerted me to), if anything, I like it less. A lot less. Frankly, and I say this with no small reflection on the import of the comment and how you will receive it, I think it's the worst thing he's ever made, both aesthetically and morally speaking.

This is the first time I've ever seen a Joss Whedon work and known I could do better.
(I'm still reading this thread, it's like a medusa, you reach the end, refresh, and there're another 10 posts, read those 10, refresh, and there are 15. But it's so much fun.)

Some brief notes:

Regarding all of us watching at once. I was interested to see the Alexa link Simon posted, whilst not necessarily correct, it was interesting to see that there were actually quite a lot of German viewers (more than Australia, even). I was thinking about foreign subtitles, but I'm not too sure how well a musical would work subtitled, I don't have any experience with that. ETA: In case anyone who hasn't seen the Alexa stats is wondering, I'm only pointing Germany out because it's the only non-English-speaking country that was giving major traffic to drhorrible.com.

Now, about the thing itself. The first time I saw Act II, the spork scene didn't seem right for me. It carried on that one beat too long, because it was a little creepy, the way he didn't stop doing it and the scene just ended. But now, after seeing Act III, the spork scene is perfect.

[ edited by MattK on 2008-07-19 20:37 ]
I don't see a real hero or a real villain, of the comic-book variety or any other, anywhere in this story. That's just WRONG.

Why is that wrong?

(Not being flippant. I'd like to see an expansion of this remark.)
Meanwhile, it occurred to me this morning that you'd have thought that Billy might have realized something was wrong with what he was trying to do if he had bothered to notice that both he and Captain Hammer subscribed to the idea that "a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do" is an excuse for anything.
I have to admit to being kind of amused at the fact that Joss' is really the only name that's come up in conversation of Penny's death, especially where people are upset and looking for someone to blame. There were four writers on the project, after all.
Simon said:
"It's certainly a strange feeling being unspoilt for a Joss production. I haven't been like since Buffy season 5 aired."

Oh wow Simon, for everything he's written since Season 5 ? (including Fray? Or does "production" not include comics?) For everything in Seasons 3 to 5 of Angel, the entirety of Firefly and Serenity too ? For serious?

Was it solely due to your mod duties here and needing to read every news item and thread, or was it a conscious decision to spoil yourself ?

newjc said:
"I'm sure not all comic books are damn comic books, but so far that is all I feel like we have been getting from Joss...here we finally have live action and it is another damn comic book with another ending that feels like it is just a set up to sell another damn comic book and I feel ripped off because I was looking forward to buying the DVD of this and now I don't want to unless there is another 40 minutes or so...and/or an ending."

Did Fray not have a closed/satisfying enough conclusion ? I thought it was complete back when I read it, though that doesn't stop me hoping for more and being [cautiously] glad that we're getting some in Season 8.

A couple people quoted:
"Each man kills the thing he loves"

Oh yay, so that's supposedly deep or binding or something when it comes to quality operatic storytelling and it's a reflection of a more well-read, literary-device-minded person if they respect that route for the story ? Meh.

Must re-emphasize. I loved this project, just not the ending. Yeah, I'm fine with him becoming the villain, pretty much figured that was the point of this from the beginning (unless they went for more comedy at Billy's expense and just had him fail at everything but getting with Penny or at least staying friends with her). The girl didn't need to die though. And I don't wanna start a flame war, but Joss has killed off more main female main characters than male at this point, it's getting old (but yeah, I still agree that Penny was the only one who could die without destroying the chances of a sequel--Hammer should definitely be in it). I haven't done the math to figure out if we've had more women than men in the main and major supporting casts from his three shows though, 'cause then statistically it would at least fit, given the odds.

malcolm said:
"A death in the Jossverse is ALWAYS about what it does to the other characters:-

Jenny's death was about Giles. Tara's was for Willow's arc. Joyce's was for Buffy's Gift. Fred's was for Wesley. Wash's was for Zoe.

I'm still waiting for Anya's to play out for Xander (but then I've not read much of Season 8)"

I don't think it's always solely about how the deaths effect the other characters. You're sad for the person it happened to as well, their life cut short. I was still enjoying watching Tara and Wash, so those hurt (Fred's cut deep too, but the character wasn't worth much to the show anymore and it produced Illyria, so I'd say the death-trade was fair) When there's terror and/or pain leading up to it, it can make it more impactful too (Jenny, Fred, arguably Joyce even though many probably assumed she was safe after the operation went fine). I think Anya's death was about her overall arc too though, not just something to give us Xander-in-pain-and-dealing-with material later on and an anguished cry while searching for her in "Chosen". Season 7 was huge for Anya, in two episodes in particular ("Selfless" and whichever episode she's talking to Andrew about how she's grown fond of humanity). It was about her re-discovering her own humanity/compassion and, in the end, being willing to risk her life for them instead of high-tailing it out of Sunnydale when things got real bleak (compare with Season 3 Anya).

***SPOILERS for Joss' 6-issue arc on Runaways***
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I was a tiny bit surprised no one big died in Runaways (hah, but he employed one of the harshest and best punishments I've ever seen done to two villains).
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I loved it. It was funny, it was sad, it had the whole package.

Act III definitely shocked me, but that's what Joss does best.

Thank you.
I believe all responses to "Horrible" are valid and have special respect for deeply felt ones, whether positive or negative. But I'm not sure it's helpful to dismiss expressed love of "Horrible" as the result of lamely unthinking "deifying incantation." One can actually be intelligent and not an idiot espouser of some sort of "Apostle's Creed" and still think highly of "Horrible.
I would love to own a Circle of the Black Beauty T-shirt.
I'm still too flat on the floor to give my opinion on Act III (though disappointment, sadness and amazement are all in there somewhere), but I wanted to comment on this.

This musical is a social commentary, a distilled version, of situations replayed all over the world all over history. Rebels who start as idealists attack the establishment, innocent people get killed, and the new powers are not better than the old ones.
Nata | July 19, 19:55 CET


I agree, but I'm surprised that this is where we ended up. Given the circumstances surrounding it, I expected the message of the musical to be that challenging the status quo is a positive thing.

[ edited by cypher on 2008-07-19 21:02 ]
I loved this project, just not the ending.

No offense, but this means you did not love this project.
BAFfler, the funny thing is that the reasons you list for disliking the project, namely the lack of a villain or hero of any type, as well as the shift in tone were the reasons I enjoyed the project so much.

Frankly I don't believe that there wasn't a continuity of character heading into the third act. The final song of act 2, that smile that goes on Billie's face before he sings about killing Captain Hammer is the moment where there is a shift, and his impulses as a villain kick in. They kick in since he was fundamentally attacked, he was jealous, and he loved Penny.

You are absolutely right about what the characters turn out to be in the end. But I don't see the problem with that. When you make the choice to create a musical starring the "villain" than fundmamentally the roles are going to be murky. Captain Hammer is a rude, smirking, whiny child. Doctor Horrible is an anarchist super-villain with a soul underneath his chosen vocation. I don't understand the problems with that.

I have no doubt that you could write something that you yourself would have enjoyed more. Your argument however does not make me think that what you would have written would have appealed more to me. I certainly believe your opinion and points are valid, but I disagree almost entirely with your final conclusions.

And many of us who did like it didn't comment on the "we get what we need, not what we want." I never use that phrase when discussing Joss' work, since each project and story choice must stand on it's basis. I think fundamentally, utilizing that to simply ignore opposing arguments is problematic.
After seeing Act III, I now know that Joss can't write anything without deep, awful human feeling in it somewhere. I was enjoying Acts I and II for the pretty, the funny, and the fluffy, and thinking "well, this is a lot of fun, but not earth-shattering or anything." Then he broke our hearts again. What is it about such sorrow that is so painful and beautiful at the same time? Anyway, very glad to have new Joss heartbreak, with more to come I'm sure next year with Dollhouse. Also very glad that there are two more Whedons writing stories! Amazing DNA, here's hoping there's yet another generation coming as well!
phlebotinin, that's not what Baffler was saying. Wasn't making fun of people who like Dr. Horrible. They were pointing out how annoying it is when people (on this site especially) do the whole...well, I'll just quote again, but basically Baffler was saying that it's annoying when people use the Joss mantra to silence negative and/or constructive criticism of his work and the decisions he makes with certain arcs. Not everyone espousing the "doesn't give us what we want/gives what we need" line intend to shut down debate, but sometimes it comes off as dismissive (and some Whedon fans do use it to shut down debate--but that line on its own is a weak argument for anything).

again, I find myself having to take issue with the whole "Joss gives us what we need, not what we want" thing. That sort of deifying incantation may satisfy some of you, but it doesn't satisfy me. I knew, even before I started to read the comments in depth, that at least one person would say that, followed by several "Oh yeah, that's right" replies. Seriously, is this the Whedonesque version of the Apostle's Creed? I believe in Joss the Father Almighty, maker of what we need and not what we want... It gets to be a little much after a while, people. Joss does not know what we need

Baffler, there's gonna be rampant fanboyism here, kinda the point of the site to some degree (well, Whedon news and fun/interesting/sometimes-heated discussion in a respectful manner is, ideally, the point of this site, I guess). I get carried away myself sometimes (uh, like with the thread for Dr. Horrible Act 2 and probably Act 1). Personally I can deal with even the most ridiculous displays of Joss-worship when they're done in respect and love of his work, but only have a problem with them when they quote Joss' own words from his Buffy posting board days in an attempt to win a debate (which, to be fair, hasn't been a big problem in this otherwise awesome thread, but I see your point because it does happen a lot). And yes, it gets painfully annoying when it comes from folks who believe Joss never or almost never does anything open for criticism (everything is fair game, really) and is the best writer ever (one of them in TV/film/comics[I think he's still proving himself in that last field, definitely uphill so far though], fine, but geez some Whedon fans need to keep trying new things).
In case anyone is wondering, my word processor is showing this thread at about 50,000 words, or about 130 A4 pages. Heh. :)
theonetruebix said:
"No offense, but this means you did not love this project."

How do you figure, bix ? I got the potential message(s) Joss might've been going for (some I saw while viewing, some were suggested here by people analyzing the whole thing--thanks for in-depth reads, guys), so it's not like I didn't understand it. And overall, I love Dr. Horrible (I guess I shouldn't say I didn't like the ending entirely--I liked the walk into the supervillain lair and seeing Bad Horse and his cronies). Y'know, like how you can love Buffy, Angel, or Firefly without loving every single aspect of them ?

So why does me not liking something that happend in the ending (Penny's death, not Horrible's transformation, which was almost a given) prevent me from being correct in saying I loved the project ?

[ edited by Kris on 2008-07-19 21:14 ]
I agree, but I'm surprised that this is where we ended up. Given the circumstances surrounding it, I expected the message of the musical to be that challenging the status quo was a positive thing.
Tell you the truth, I too was suprised. Change=good, establishment=bad seemed to be a motto of the strike. But knocking over the system is a painful thing, and if we look at the history of mankind, it almost never ends well.
Penny's way, or Anne's way from NFA (whom I see as Penny's kindred) seem to be the way to go, but those good acts are often trumpled over by powers fighting each other.
And by the way, if you follow Angel:ATF comics, Anne's fate is very likely to be similar to Penny's.

I do think change is good when it's needed. And critique of the establishment was here aplenty. Cpt.Hammer represented it. But what they were saying here seemed like it's never that simple.
I maybe even seeing a bit of self-searching here, as Dr.Horrible seemed to start almost like author's alter-ego. I.e. what do we do, how do we change the world? Are we doing the right thing (or were)? I see some self-reflection in this piece.
Having read the whole thread (as it stands now) in two enormous goes, responses to a couple of points:

malcom, so far as I can tell, Fred's death was about Joss wanting to see Amy Acker play Illyria (both have said so repeatedly). Had Fred not died, she probably wouldn't have gotten together with Wesley, so Wesley was on the road to serious misery anyway. If anybody, her death affected *Gunn* more, in a sort of "Dr. Horrible" way (though he wasn't aiming to be evil, just not be who he was). Which leads me to ...

fluffypooh, palehorse, I saw all three segments one after the other. My immediate thought was, "Oh, I think this is what Joss was going for in 'Buffy' Season 6." Dr. Horrible is a lot like the nerds, very funny but very indignant about a host of humiliations -- and then there's an oops. There are some similarities to Willow as well. The thing with "Buffy" Season Six was, there were too many other factors to go for this effect precisely. But Joss Whedon's writing is often about how villains *become* villains. They don't start out as hateful people -- just slightly oblivious individuals who want to be better and cooler than they are, taking drastic steps that often destroy innocent parties, sometimes innocent parties who they love. See Gunn re: Fred, Andrew re: Jonathan (they were best friends, despite Andrew's somewhat stronger feelings for Warren). This also *might* be true of Willow, but Willow was not responsible for Tara's death. While I have no evidence of this, I think it's possible that there may have been a conceptual version where Willow's magic use might have been instrumental in Tara's death, but that would be too hard to come back from -- I don't think anybody wanted a whole season seven of Buffy vs. DarkWillow (okay, *I* sure didn't, and I surmise Mutant Enemy didn't want it either, because that's not what we saw) and I doubt there was any chance Willow/Alyson Hannigan was ever going to be off "Buffy" before the very last scene. But all of these themes recur one way or another in Whedon's work. It's about how good if slightly sad people wind up doing horrific evil in the name of wanting to sing "I don't feel a thing" (incidentally, one of the lyrics in the David Greenwalt-penned song sung by Lindsay at Caritas) to ward off the horrible (yes, deliberate word choice) pain of what they have done in the quest of the horrible pain of just being who they are. It's a much more visceral, impactful syllogism -- if/then -- than either an editorial piece or something that says at the start, "This is tragic. These people are so depressed that something bad happening to them or something bad that they do isn't going to make things *that* much worse for them or our view of them." The tragedy here is bad things happening to good people, and good people doing terrible things and of course idiots who present themselves as heroes going around blithely creating disaster (pick your own real-life metaphor on that last one :) ). I would love to know if Joss Whedon thinks of themes and then how to illustrate them, or if he creates characters and they walk into what he wants to talk about. Either way, I think it's a great metaphor and really terrific work on the parts of all parties concerned. (And I do think there are moments where Neil Patrick Harris as Dr. Horrible really looks like Joss Whedon in video interviews.)

And wow, long post.
Huh?

I loved this project, just not the ending.

No offense, but this means you did not love this project.

theonetruebix | July 19, 21:04 CET

b!x- While you've made a lot of good points, I think you are being unfair here.
I think what broke me as badly as Penny dying is she never got to realize what Hammer was. She was sort of starting to see him for what he really was, then she died. Her saying "It's OK, Captain Hammer will save us." as her last words just about killed me. Also the first thing she says to Billy is "Are you alright?" sob
I think you are being unfair here.

That's okay. But it's what I believe. The ending is part of the project, so I don't get how one can prefer a different ending but still say they love the project.

(Do I need to slug everything I say with "my opinion is that...", or can we all just accept that as a given?)
Kris: A couple people quoted:
'Each man kills the thing he loves'

Oh yay, so that's supposedly deep or binding or something when it comes to quality operatic storytelling and it's a reflection of a more well-read, literary-device-minded person if they respect that route for the story ? Meh.


No. But it's interesting that that's your interpretation of its use in this thread.

I posted my "Ballad of Reading Gaol" excerpt because 1) that's precisely what came into my mind when I watched Act III and 2) I think it's beautiful, too, and wanted to share something I thought was relevant with you'all.

That's all. Make of that what you will.
bix,

"IMO" is assumed, yeah, but your opinion didn't make sense to me is all. Do you agree that someone can love Buffy, Angel, and Firefly without liking every component of them ? Or even without liking "Chosen" or "Not Fade Away" or "Objects in Space"/"Serenity" ?

So why wouldn't the same apply to Dr. Horrible ? Because of length ?

No attacking your opinion, definitely not, just curious/requesting some further explanation, should you be in the mood to provide it.

[ edited by Kris on 2008-07-19 21:49 ]
Lots ofg people are saying that this Penny dying is a Joss ending, but I an' agree. HE certainly didn't invent the death of a character, and he didn't invent the trick of using said death of a character to change another's life.

I'll have more to say on this next week or so. I want to check some sources first, otherwise you guys will tear me a new one for every character I type. And you probably will anyway.
Point is this isn't any kind of atypical ending, in musical, comic book, super-villain, love story, or basic story at all. happens ALL THE TIME.
QuoterGal: And many thanks for posting that poem. I have, as yet (in my admittedly short life), not read any Oscar Wilde, and just yesterday I bought The Picture of Dorian Gray. So I was quite pleased to read one of his poems here -- and what a powerful one it is.
Shapenew, while I agree that showing how villains become villains is one of the themes in Joss' work, I'm not sure if the parallel you're sketching here:

Dr. Horrible is a lot like the nerds, very funny but very indignant about a host of humiliations -- and then there's an oops.


is completely accurate. The nerd trio - Warren, especially - had already shown themselves to be evil, by their conscious actions (or lack thereof). And while Dr. Horrible is now, after three acts trapped in an evil persona, and has become a villain, I'm not sure he, himself, is actually evil. Surely, he did nothing that had a direct influence on the events as they unfolded. He created the situation by his misguided desire to be respected and important, yes. But he did not to anything that could be considered evil, directly. He only ever stunned Captain Hammer, did some stealing without violence and hesitated to kill Captain Hammer when he had the chance. He also tried to stop Doctor Horrible from pulling the trigger, when he saw the death ray was maltfunctioning. It's ambiguous if he would have become evil by himself, without this outside push (he may have shot Cpt. Hammer after all, or may have been simply pleeding for his life with his warning), but what I take away from it, is that he is forced, by cicumstance and other people's opinions of him (and guilt for his role in the events) to assume a new role, because he must stop feeling to deal with things. the last shot proves it to me: someone who feels so much pain to the point of numbness, cannot be completely, unredeemable evil.

I therefore think the parallel that barboo drew with Faith's turn to the darkside is more accurate here.

ETA: Quotergal: I thought the poem was beautifull and tragic and very relevant to what Act III made me feel. I had never heard it before. So thanks for that.

[ edited by GVH on 2008-07-19 21:50 ]
Kris, part of it for me probably is length, yes. I'm not sure precisely how to quantify that (and it might very well be purely subjective and basically instinctual), but I think that the more compact and self-contained something is, the less it seems reasonable to me to say one loves it while also saying some major part of it should have been drastically different.

It's more, to me, akin to saying something like "I loved Chosen, except for what happens with Spike", rather than, say, "I loved Buffy, but I hated episode X". To me, one can love Buffy but dislike certain episodes. But one couldn't claim to love "Chosen" while professing dislike for some major component of it.

As I said, I'm not sure how to quantify it, exactly.

[ edited by theonetruebix on 2008-07-19 21:50 ]
Kris: I don't feel strongly about either side of the argument, but I do think your comparison to Buffy or Angel is inappropriate. They were very long, and had many different features, directors, writers, etc. This is, essentially, "just" one episode. What bix is saying would be comparable to saying, "well, if you didn't like the end of an episode of Buffy, then you didn't like that episode." And I can understand that point of view, really. The ending is important to the thing as a whole whereas, say, a dislike of one of the songs isn't as much an issue.
I'm all for sharing differing opinions, but flat-out stating that someone is wrong about loving something strikes me as somewhat presumptuous.
Shapenew: "I think While I have no evidence of this, I think it's possible that there may have been a conceptual version where Willow's magic use might have been instrumental in Tara's death..."

I think this is definitely true, and the specific magic incident is Buffy's resurrection. There's the "death of the innocent" bit with the faun in "Bargaining," the constant references to the price of Willow's magic, the cut to Buffy's eyes fluttering open when Willow says, "Bring her back!" And then there's Willow's monologue to Kennedy in "Anywhere But Here" which basically continues the thought. My theory is that this was meant to be made more explicit originally and then the writers backed down and then did it thematically. Note also that Warren mirrors Willow (compare Warren/Katrina in "Dead Things" to Willow/Tara in "OMWF"/"Tabula Rasa", some of their words about the slayer in season six, Willow's pretty much self-descriptive comments while torturing him) and so thematically the death of Tara is again placed on Willow.
Cool, thanks.

For what it's worth, I got around to watching it all in one go today and still love it. Enjoyed the re-watch hugely, actually. The songs have been in my head all morning and afternoon.

Not liking one part of the ending doesn't ruin the experience, though I see that it unfortunately did for a few people. It's the old "can't please everyone". For me this has just been a one-sided argument with the creator(s) anyway. A bit of satisfying venting to go along with my heaps of praise, but useless all the same.
b!x: This thread is volley of opinions. I was just adding mine - which I didn't slug either.

I think one can have their most favorite and least favourite parts of DH and still love the whole thing. IMO. :)
karosurly, as I said, I had thought we were all capable of just understanding that pretty much everything anyone says in here is their opinion.

I'd really find it clumsy and tiring if I had to write "in my opinion" every time I post something, and read "in my opinion" in every single comment from someone else.

I mean, in a thread like this, is someone here really worrying that I'm going to express an opinion and someone will mistake it for Revealed Truth, and so I have to hedge everything I say with a blatant "IMO"?
After reading this thread and agreeing with a lot of the thoughts here - and disagreeing strongly with a few - I am ready to watch it all again - and can't wait to see it on a big screen with all the other fans next Friday, even if I have to sit in the room for hours!
Thanks for pointing out our special connection to this event, Simon & GVH. Now that I've slept on it, and am still living it, I feel truly blessed to be a part of it. Thanks!
Bix: while I would instinctively agree with your point if we'd all seen Dr. Horrible as a 42-minute presentation, I think the way we all lived with it for almost a week, with three seperate installments which all had a different feel, means that it is possible to still love it, without actually loving every part of it.

And while the part that Kris dislikes is a very integral part to the story, it's still hard to draw the line (as you rightfully already point out): do we have to love every song for instance, to love the entire thing? It's a slippery slope, and would probably differ for everyone, where they'd draw the line for "still love this, despite [insert element here]".

Also (and with all respect, I'm not attacking anyone or saying anybody did or said anything wrong here): while I think that everyone reads something with an 'IMO' behind it automatically, I think it's the specific wording here that came across as wrong. When you state that someone did not love something, that probably reads like "I'm deciding for you that you did not love this, because you did not meet the requirements for loving it", while you were actually saying (but correct me if I'm wrong): "I can't imagine you loving this, without liking this essential element". There's a difference in wording there that might get misinterpreted even when applying an auto-IMO, I think. Plus, everyone is probably tired from reading this MONSTER-MUTANT-THREAD which is freaking 130 pages + :)
I've seen this happening at other forums, people get misread quickly, and toes are stepped on.

and omjoss, 600+ replies!!
Thanks, MattK and GVH, I appreciate that.

And after two freakin' hours with AT&T tech support with no end in sight, and then that implication of - what, literary posturing? - I really needed that.

I quote because I love. And like Joss (who, by the way, would be insulted by deification) what I love, I love hard. And I loved this musical.

And that is really all for now.
That's true, Krusher, but folks here have a good way of righting the ship themselves, smoothing out toes, and offering more detailed interpretations. All while maintaining distinct opinions. Cheers for that.
Oh wow Simon, for everything he's written since Season 5 ? (including Fray? Or does "production" not include comics?) For everything in Seasons 3 to 5 of Angel, the entirety of Firefly and Serenity too ? For serious?


Just about. If there were spoilers there , I read them. Though I did make a conscious effort to stay away from them for the Buffy season 5 finale. Which led to me screaming at the telly when Spike got his soul back.

Was it solely due to your mod duties here and needing to read every news item and thread, or was it a conscious decision to spoil yourself ?


It would hard to mod here and not read the spoiler threads. And I do make conscious efforts to spoil myself. These days I only try to remain unspoiled for games. Silent Hill 2, Star Ocean 3 and Bioshock? Those twists I didn't see coming.


And in general, remember that other posters are entitled to their own opinions.

Marital law hasn't gone away you know.

Neither have I.

Or the commenting on this thread by the looks of it.
Is that a nice way of saying we're a bunch of wind bags?
Is that a nice way of saying we're a bunch of wind bags?


I just want to see how it ends :P.

It hasn't been like this since the days of the special Serenity screenings and that was four years ago. A lifetime for most fandoms. I do like the end of the wilderness years it must be said. And now I'm going to play the final sequence for the fiftieth time. Best Whedon sequence ever? It's on a par with the greatest moments bit at the end of Lessons.
Yeah, theonetruebix, I get that. My point wasn't about whether or not it was an opinion as much as it was that having an opinion about the veracity of another person's feelings might be perceived as kind of condescending. I mean, sure, when your pre-teen daughter tells you she loves one of the Jonas Brothers, ok. But when another adult tells you he or she loves something ... I dunno. In my opinion, it's best to let them be the authority on their feelings.

Anyhoo. Lest I be accused of beating Bad Horse himself, that's it for me on that.
I'm guessing someone's already mentioned this, but I just finished watching it and was a little surprised. Not that Maurissa and the Whedon boys went to the dark place, but more that the first two acts were structured as dramatic comedies, while the final act was structured as a tragedy. It was a bit jarring for me. But I suppose we can't point at classic story structure and call it wholly realistic. Ah well.

Um, Simon, I haven't really read the other posts, but did you maybe mean "martial" law?
My high school phys ed department had a class in Marital Arts. We were all very disappointed when it turned out to be a typo.

[ edited by speechlady on 2008-07-19 22:46 ]
OMG Simon! I totally thought the same thing about the final sequence and the end of Lessons (which is my all time favorite Buffy scene).
Okay, so I just couldn't bring myself to comment last night...too sad to type. I don't know why I let my guard down. I knew Joss had his hands in it, but still I wasn't prepared. My heart's broken! ...but it was pure brilliance. Sheer and total gold!
BAF, yes, well-put.
I keep re-watching that ending. It is so powerful, with the new suit, the music, NPH's voice, and the last shot. It's amazing.

[ edited by Giles_314 on 2008-07-19 22:55 ]
My friend and I jokingly said that since Joss did it, there was no way that there was a happy ending. Bun, man, we so never thought it was going to be like that. I keep watching it, it is so moving. Many, many thumbs up.
Trying not to be redundant but, have you all seen This? The show was featured on NPR - thanks for the heads-up from the So. Cal Browncoats Digest.
Um, Simon, I haven't really read the other posts, but did you maybe mean "martial" law?


It's a gag with limited legs.
Oh, c'mon, S-dude, it's got all kinds of legs - it's the Veritable Centipede of Jokes.

(You did mean we have to get married to keep our w-memberships, right? 'Cause the presents are starting to roll in, and some of 'em are cherry. I'm not sending 'em back.)
Yeah, I think that was posted yesterday, Tonya J.

ETA: That when I unfortunately guessed "death ray" from the first picture.

[ edited by korkster on 2008-07-19 23:11 ]
Well, about this 'Joss is the master and everything he does is great' thing... I do 'pre-like' everything with Joss' name in it, but there were some tiny things he did that I did not like... few things... VERY few, but there were things. So I don't know if maybe I loved Dr. Horrible SO much because is Joss (and Jed, and Zack, and Maurissa), but when I think about it, I don't really care, 'cause the feeling of loving it is the same. I guess that just using this argument (if it is an argument, sometimes is not SO easy for me to express exactly what I think in english, so...) to say you loved it, even if you don't would be wrong... but then again, how to judge if someone liked or not?

I guess I ended up saying nothing... O.o

...

And about the 'biggest thread ever'...

I do like the end of the wilderness years it must be said.

hehe, Simon, I think if I was a mod I'd be like: 'pleaseeeeee, end with this thread already!', but I have to say that I'm finding this really REALLY fun to be a part of! Wasn't very fun to read the big threads 4 years ago and not being able to comment (I do not know how I manage to miss the registration dates for so many years), so I usually read just the first posts...
I'm with you on that one, maxsummers. For a year I missed the registration by like a day. Very frustrating. But it was fun stalking Saje, QuoterGal, zietgeist, Simon, & SoddingNancyTribe, just to name a few. It was like being friends through the bushes. And now you are all blessed with my annoying ways. :)

I like this thread, but I can't wait to hear how Dr. Horrible did! One more day!
I personally want to say 'Pooh on you!' to our previous host because you know we would've been down for hours if we hadn't moved and our record-setting thread would be not so much with the setting of records. :D

And many many MANY thanks to Media Temple for keeping us going. And of course to all of our moderators and technical staff. (Oooh, that sounds so professional! ;)
I think in honour of the end of the "wilderness years", I put my vote in for some Dr. Horrible photos on Whedonesque's banner?

ETA: And I second what korkster said about the stalking, heh. For some reason I had my account for quite a while before I started using it.

I really hope Dr. Horrible gets up on iTunes in the UK soon. Apart from better quality (sound especially), if it's not then I won't be able to see it again after Sunday.

[ edited by MattK on 2008-07-19 23:25 ]
And I do make conscious efforts to spoil myself.

You do? Really?

I try not to spoil myself when I'm linking all of your wonderful threads but sometimes, it's simply unavoidable.

Also, wow. I can't keep up with the comments on here. Lots of posts to think on and chew over.
Jeez, 625 + ? That beats the previous record by about a hundred, yeah ? I was just thinking "What's gonna happen when 'Dollhouse' airs ?" but y'know, as Simon and others have said, this went out simultaneously globally and that might make it a hard record to top.

And now I'm going to play the final sequence for the fiftieth time. Best Whedon sequence ever?

All human pain is written in NPH's expression at the end. That's gotta contend for one of the most powerful moments in all Whedonia for me and I wouldn't change it for Chinaesque amounts of tea.
Banter - actually, in retrospect, I think the whole thing is pretty much a classical tragedy - Dr. Horrible's tragic flaw (his blind ambition to be a supervillan) is revealed throughout, and by the end, we see how pursuing what he thought was what he wanted cost him everything he really desired.

I didn't read this so much as a political statement, but a moral one, with immediate ramifications for us non-super heroes and non-supervillans. I mean, think of how many people pursue their ambitions, hoping that success will bring them happiness and love, only to discover when they achieve their goals that it has cost them both.

Penny's death has made many of us search this otherwise delectably fluffy musical for deeper meaning (however much we may say that "things happen," the many comments in this thread suggest that somehow we can't help wanting to look "for a reason" anyway). I like the moral weight her death gives the piece.

Unfortunately, though, the pacing and structure of the third act don't quite work for me. I wish Joss & co. had had more time to work on it.
Woo Hoo! Dr. Horrible finally ousted the top TV episode on iTunes! It now holds the 1, 2, and 4 spots! Yay word of mouth!
I'm a pretty new member and this is really the first time I've gotten to experience anything live. I've been a fan of Joss since S2 of Buffy, but I was pretty late to the party with Firefly and didn't really get into the fandom til after the movie came out. And I found it by surprise in my local blockbuster. Movi like like Serenity are quite unknown in my neck of the woods so it was pretty late. and it took me even longer to be able to register here.It was only thanks to the_cortex on lj that I found out and ran over here. But I've been reading for a while and I am loving to experience all this. I am so,so glad I didn't went away. I would've come back,watched it and commented it but it wouldn't have been nearly as fun. And now I can't wait for Dollhouse.
Well the very bestest thing about Doctor Horrible is also the reason (I believe) for this mega-long thread: for the first time in YEARS we have some new Jossonian goodness to discuss. Oh the comics have meant a lot in keeping us all engaged, but they can't compare to the joy of actors telling (and singing) Joss' stories. The more I've thought about this the more I love it, it is really a unique story in that there are ample twists to re-inspire the old stories we have always loved.
I think with all the angst, we've had a lot less quote-y-ness in this thread than in Act II, but I've just been re-watching it, and I have to say, "deltoids of compassion" is just genius.
Well,this thread has been going on for nearly 19 hours now. is that a record?
Oh the comics have meant a lot in keeping us all engaged, but they can't compare to the joy of actors telling (and singing) Joss' stories.

I've been thinking the same thing, embers.
All human pain is written in NPH's expression at the end. That's gotta contend for one of the most powerful moments in all Whedonia for me and I wouldn't change it for Chinaesque amounts of tea.

Saje | July 19, 23:31 CET


I totally agree with you, Saje. My family and friends may not understand, but I'm glad you do. Dr. Horrible has earned the impact it's had on me, every bit of it. It wasn't a lie when I said it's one of the best works ever. And, yeah, I demand would like to have Dr. Horrible added to our Whedonesque site.

I get the tragic flaw part, TawnyJayne, but what affects me the most is that for Acts 1 & 2 I was cheering for Billy to take action, become the supervillian Dr. Horrible. Now look what happened to him. I feel like I was that friend, cheering on my buddy to chug down beers, only for him to get alcohol poisoning and die. I'm a bad horse friend.

I think that's something that the press and those at CC won't get. They'll see it in whole, with slight cheers and jeers, but seeing it, piece by piece, we've been able to touch on something that few others will get a chance to do.
Okay, yeah, I know I’m coming in at the very end, but I felt a little hesitant posting on such an enormous thread and taking a risk of making it topple over or collapse, or what if I accidentally slipped on melted frozen yogurt or something? And jeez it takes a long time to read 600+ posts!

I think the opinion that really struck a chord with me was Simon pointing out that no one had a real way to be spoiled and we could all experience Dr Horrible pretty much together and at the same time. That left me with a feeling of absolute delight for the Whedon family, soon to be family and extended family of cast and crew.

From the exhilaration of wanting and waiting to know what would happen next to experiencing Dr Horrible’s sing along blog by being able to, yes, sing along after a few viewings, and having a feeling at the end of Act I what might happen to Penny, but still feeling shocked when it did, I feel I’m emotionally exhausted now, in the best Whedon-y way possible.

One of my lasting favorite bits? The cut to Dr. H’s shoulder shimmy during the freeze ray explanation.
Yes, embers, it HAS been years since we could talk about something fresh. And, boy, I didn't realize I missed actors so much. Dr. Horrible couldn't have been told as a comic. You definitely needed NPH, NF, & FD there.

Speaking of comics, I'm reminded of the 2-D'ness of Captain Hammers story and the 3-D'ness of Dr. Horrible's story, each told on 2D & 3D respectively. That's kind of neat.
I get the tragic flaw part, TawnyJayne, but what affects me the most is that for Acts 1 & 2 I was cheering for Billy to take action, become the supervillian Dr. Horrible.

And it's funny that we do this, because the tragedy laying in wait in his tragic flaw is hanging out there for all to see. All it would have taken to derail the entire chain of events was for Billy to stop fidgeting with his remote control and stick with the conversation Penny clearly wanted to be having with him over her clipboard in Act I.

But, no matter how many of us might have gone "d'oh, you idiot, go back and keep talking to her", we still were rooting for his Wonderflonium heist, somehow mysteriously blind to hating Captain Hammer for his "a man's gotta do..." attitude but giving Billy a pass for the same attitude.

For whatever reason, we thought he could be a supervillain and get the girl. Silly us.

[ edited by theonetruebix on 2008-07-19 23:51 ]
I agree, bloodflowers, Simon said it best. We were all able to attend a Whedon event, together, without spoilers. Ground-breaking. I REALLY we get more of these; this experience has made my connection to Whedon, his works, and our community stronger by sharing it.

I do love the shoulder boogie, and the hand-jive. Back when Dr. H was still innocent.
Yep, bix, that's exactly it. Re-watching Act 1 (and all), that's exactly where we could retain our Billy. And the "A Man's Gotta Do", as we mentioned up-stream holds a different resonance now... makes me wish I hadn't given Billy that pass.

Very silly us.
TawnyJayne--I agree about Billy's blind ambition. I was referring to the rather more boring and clinical structure, though. Typically, the easiest way to identify a comedy is if at the midpoint, nothing is going the protagonist's way. Tragedy's the opposite, with everything going the protagonist's way. (No pointing at Hamlet. I said typically.)

I think what threw off the pacing (or helped to) was that nothing was actually Billy's blog until the final frames. Which made me sad.
I was just reading some posts on lj, some people were talking about how they didn't watch Joss' shows cause they think we (the fans) are scary.At least,most of them have watched Dr Horrible, mainly cause of NPH. No wonder,since he is absolutely fantastic in this. but it makes me wonder, being afraid of the fandom seems like a silly reason not to enjoy something
Still 1, 2, & 4 on Top TV Shows for iTunes. I'm surprised Act 3 is #1. I know everyone wants the conclusion... and personally I love Act 3, but still surprised, in a very good way.

MODS, I was wondering if this is the longest or most constantly commented thread you have ever had. I feel like breaking another record. Are we close? For some reason, I feel like the "Nothing but Red" may be beating us with 800, but I just wanted to know if you keep those sort of numbers around.

Share, please?
okelay, I think it's actually a good reason. Perhaps they're afraid that if they DO watch it, they'll turn into us by loving it so much.

To become what your afraid of, or what you make fun of, may be truly traumatic for them. And they should be.

My mom was just saying this morning how obsessive I am. I told her I was living life to the fullest, and feeling every emotion with gusto. And that, if it weren't for my fandom-like tendencies, she wouldn't have Spike, Booth, or Dexter.

I mean, what's the point in living if it's only going to be half-assed? Refusing to submit to something wonderful and powerful, and then to learn and grow from it in a community as open and welcoming as ours? Sometimes I wonder if we're the ones who have it right and the rest of the world is truly missing out.
So, I finally saw Dr. Horrible acts I, II and III together, without the opening credits in between.

Have to say, despite Penny's fate, it's very consistent, and I love each and every bit of it. Shure, it has flaws (@DP: keep the horizons level when shooting, please) but then again, I've seen series lasting forever with major flaws in it.
Love the dialog, love the singing. And I bet Nathan could do a mean Elvis impression :D

Love Felicia's character Penny (duh) She's to me a mix of Tara's sweetness and Willow's quirkiness. And is she that tiny? I mean, I tower above NPH and Nathan....

I have one issue though, why break up and end a possible cutest couple ever in the 'Verse??

just look at that!

and this!

Oh I get it, to be recognized as horrible, you have to do the bad thing, however, Dr. Horrible didn't do that. See, he just placed a sticker on the STUN ray, it was not a Death ray. Captain Hammer just assumed it was one, and it blew up in his face while using it. Taking Penny away.

There better be a sequel, restoring the ill fate of our plagued Dr. Horrible. But that's unlikely, right Joss? There is no happy place?

And I love it. And I still fall for it. THANK YOU team, for making this possible, and thank you Whedonesque and it's members for making this a true event. I've missed this.

Oh and make the dvd available in the Netherlands!!! I want it!

[ edited by Krusher on 2008-07-20 00:16 ]
I'd like to re-mention how good & cute Maurissa was in Act III, as phlebotinin mentioned somewhere at the top of this insanely long thread :). I was just rewatching the scene with the groupies, and I'd like to see her cameo more in the future.

They'll see it in whole, with slight cheers and jeers, but seeing it, piece by piece, we've been able to touch on something that few others will get a chance to do.


Yes korkster, that's exactly it, nail-on-the-head. Yes, it was hard to watch Act III and in some way it was a shame that it wasn't as much fun, initially. But the fact that we got to live with these characters meant we truly got the full impact of what was happening. I, too, was cheering on Billy, being sure - even áfter Penny got killed - that everything would turn out for the best, because he was not evil and just a guy (with, granted, a tragic flaw) who deserved a happy end. What happened means that the rug got pulled out from us not only on screen, but also for agreeing with what Billy was doing (which - granted - was partly because it was a breezy, fun, slightly absurd story up till the last few minutes of Act II, and partly because he never actually did anything Evil in all three acts). It's very powerfull and something that's built into the concept and the way it was shown to us. The more time that passes and the more I think about it, the more I love it.

Still, however much I love it, it's not my favorite piece of Whedonia, because it wasn't the only piece I experienced this way. I still remember my shock at the events in Buffy S2 and the discussions in the fandom after the episodes aired and the numb feeling, sitting with a bunch of fans after the end-titles on Serenity rolled at our Dutch pre-screening (probably the most gutted and tired I've ever felt because of fiction). I've experienced those things only sparingly in fiction outside of active fandom, and that's because it's true: active fandom enhances the experience in intensity and the fictional works become closer to your heart because of that. It's truly a special thing.

And on a totally unrelated note: it's funny to see that for some of you guys, it's the second day on this thread, while for me, it's still the first. I saw Act III when I got up this morning and I'll be heading off to bed soon-ish :)

And finally: yikes, this is still growing. Here's hoping I'm not making redundant points that have been mentioned while I was typing :)

ETA: Bix was even more nail-on-the-heady (like: right smack down in the centre of the head) with his observation on the tragic-flaw issue. Had not quite seen it in that exact light yet. Thanks :)

[ edited by GVH on 2008-07-20 00:22 ]
I completely agree,korkster, my family is always mocking me for my fannish tendencies, but I don't care. I completely enjoy it.I get lost in something wonderful, and something it breaks my heart, but it's worth it. they don't understand that cause they never allow themselves to do that. they keep reminding themselves it's fictional and I keep asking why does that matter?
You know, I was a bit afraid of parts of the HP fandom. mainly the shipper fights.But I still read the books. and loved them and I still enjoy H/Hr, but that doesn't mean I have to go join their ranks. Doctor Who is another story.
In talking about the big meaning to Dr. Horrible, what I was struck by was Horrible's hopping onto fascism as a means to change: "The world's so messed up, and I just need to rule it." He smirks at Penny getting signatures and makes the analogy between the human race and a rotting fish: "cut the head off the human race?" He admits his analogy was flawed, but ultimately we find that he, indeed, is responsible for one such death. While we must fight the urge to hero worship (even Joss?! Heresy ;-) ) and are often angered when our heroes turn out to have feet of clay (Jayne, Hammer...), and while there are certainly terrible problems with the media (spoofed wonderfully in the Marti Noxon, "It's a good day to be homeless!" line; see Michael Savage's ohsolovely comments on autistic children as brats for a real world example), we must also fight the desire to control change, to become Dr. Horrible ourselves. It's a tremendous desire: if I could just be in charge, the world wouldn't be so... tragic. Penny wouldn't die! But when we try to control the world that, in itself, makes for even worse behavior than (some) of the corporate tools (like Capt. Hammer). [Hmm, so the corporate tool and the fascist are fighting over pennies....???] I don't think Horrible is meant to be a correlate for the writers but a warning against well-meaning attempts to take over and control. My more than 2cents worth. :-P
Doctor Who is another story.

Don't get me started on that.. I seriously hated the show when Billy Piper made the mad decision to part her way from it. And Christopher Eccleston's. "afraid of beeing typecasted" sheesh. Like that's a bad thing.
The song at the end of Act II is so tragic now. There's a line, I can't remember the exact wording, but it's like "I'm gonna hesitate [shooting Cpt. Hammer?] and wonder why." Damn.

Ockelay: I was so tempted to write what my shipping preferences were for HP, but since Whedonesque discourages shipping fights within the fandom, I don't think bringing up a ship outside the fandom would please the mods too much. :)

ETA: There's something else interesting too -- the homeless shelter was still made, presumably. So 250 people's lives were helped as a result of Penny and Cpt. Hammer meeting. Doesn't feel like much of a silver lining though, does it? :(

[ edited by MattK on 2008-07-20 00:29 ]
Ah, GVH, I'm glad you were able to experience Season 2 with the community. I wasn't around then... did't come into the black until everything was over. I've done quite a bit of catching up since then. Season 2 broke my heart, but I also knew there was an Angel series, so the question I was plagued with was "how", not "what" or "why".

Buffy, Angel, and even a bit of Firefly missed out on some larger community pieces, IMO, because the internet was still... young? Not as established? We've come a long way since dial-up and AOL.

I made that point to my friend, okelay, when she didn't get that I was upset. I simply told her Dr. H was her HP, then she got it. I love HP, but I wasn't part of that community, I didn't have a strong connection with the creator, I didn't experience it with everyone else as one large chunck, and what took thousand of pages to lay the punches (or even 1 700 page book), this only took 2 months to write, 6 days to shoot, 3 days to show, and 45 minutes of love.
what I was struck by was Horrible's hopping onto fascism as a means to change

I was about to reply that on the other side I'd seen Capt. Hammer as a fascist version of The Tick, but then saw you said this:

[Hmm, so the corporate tool and the fascist are fighting over pennies....???]

which is freaking brilliant.
Well,I've never fought with anyone over shipping preferences. Well,not in HP.
Speaking of the homeless shelter, I wonder if they named it after her or something.That'd be nice.
I doubt it. They couldn't even look up her name for headline news. Captain Hammer Mourns over What's-Her-Name or something to that effect.
Buffy, Angel, and even a bit of Firefly missed out on some larger community pieces, IMO, because the internet was still... young? Not as established?

It was the first TV show I downloaded on a landline, in realmedia.. and then I went all fanatic, got meself a Buffy statue, shirts, and I now have a double set of the entire Buffyverse.. Pirating is a crime? To me it was a blessing way back then.

[ edited by Krusher on 2008-07-20 00:42 ]
Watched Act 3 this morning. Ending blew me away. I did not expect things to get so dark that quickly.

Loved the cameos and the inclusion of "grr argh."(THANK YOU) That and someone dying really made DH feel like a true Mutant Enemy production. :P

I think the first and second acts are better but Act 3 was fantastic and made me appreciate the film as a whole, better.

Thanks to everyone involved, Joss, Jed, Zach, Maurissa, Neil, Felicia and Nathan(Simon Helberg too!) you all did an amazing musical and I hope to see a future sequel.
but basically Baffler was saying that it's annoying when people use the Joss mantra to silence negative and/or constructive criticism of his work and the decisions he makes with certain arcs. Not everyone espousing the "doesn't give us what we want/gives what we need" line intend to shut down debate, but sometimes it comes off as dismissive (and some Whedon fans do use it to shut down debate--but that line on its own is a weak argument for anything).

Oh, hey. That was me who mentioned that, and as far as I can recall, I was the only one who said it, so I want to get on here to clarify just a touch. One, I'm not a regular here, so I didn't realize it was used as a blanket dismissal of dissenting opinion. My apologies. I hope my tone cleared up that I wasn't dismissing anyone else's opinion. I totally get people who were and still are disappointed. I was upset at first, too.

However, just because it may have been an overused concept in this community, I don't think it's a bad concept at all. In storytelling, it's important not to pander, to do what the story demands and make it heartwrenching if that's what it needs. So while I'm sorry to have touched on a hotbutton here, I would like to say (as far as I saw) it was just me and just out of ignorance and in no way meant to shut down dissenting opinion. Hell, I published an entire essay about how Wash's death was WRONG, and I stand by that, so I'm not a Jossophant. But I do think, in this case, that it was pitch perfect. Although I totally understand those who don't, because damn, my heart's still breaking.

So - my apologies! But no one else jumped on it or in any way even addressed it, as far as I can tell. It was just me, being the person who walks into the middle of a room and starts saying exactly the wrong thing to exactly the wrong people. No ill intent, whatsoever. Sorry!
Well, I don't think that would have been an option for not-too-tech-savvy me. Plus, what, I was 14 back then? The fruit has certainly ripened... glad Dr. Horrible came out NOW instead of then.
"[Hmm, so the corporate tool and the fascist are fighting over pennies....???]

which is freaking brilliant."


See, I thought it was obvious that Doctor Horrible represented the powerless members of the WGA (longing to have control over their fantasy worlds) who wanted to cut off the stinky fish heads of studios and networks but were beaten down by the corporate tools.... But of course that DOES still fit since they were fighting over pennies....
The only doom that's looming is you loving me to death.

That's been stuck in my head since last night.

Hammer's Hero song kind of reminded me of the self-esteem song from Smiletime.

It's interesting how Joss continues his theme of guns (in this case, rays) not working the way you want them to and having unexpected consequences. Never helpful. Well, occasionally in Firefly.

Billy's clothes are probably filthy anyway, since he's never going to do laundry ever again.
Plus, what, I was 14 back then?

Age is never an excuse ;)

Ok, I'm a geek and proud of it, hehe.

Too bad you missed that time though, it was magical, met soo many people because of the 'Verse. Hopefully this show and Dollhouse will bring back those moments for everyone.
embers, I can see the premise perhaps occurring to them when they started, but that can't be what they mean based upon what they ended up with, else they're saying the writers by fighting have and will simply make their own lives, and the lives of others, worse.
Grrrr, arrrgh...I'm STILL getting "The video is not available at this site" for Act III.
Very good, Hacksaway -- I love your point about guns ("these things never work" as Buffy put it). Thanks bix for the nod! (made me all happy inside) Embers: But if Horrible is the WGA, then aren't they all tragically flawed and not really fighting the good fight? One-one correlations are, of course, suspect, but....
Vinity, I completely agree. What makes Penny's death so heart-breaking is she dies thinking of Capt. Hammer while all we want to see is her saving Billy from is misery and maybe reversing the effects of his PhD in Horribleness. Ouch, Whedons.

Also, assuming (with the hopeful part of my brain) that there is a possibilty of a continuation of this project, I think a lot would be lost without Felicia. She really gave a the whole thing heart and a lightness to the comedy. Fortunatly I have a solution (see my above hopes for Penny's amazing return)

That being said I love the way this ending shifts the story. It seems that it might be the tale of a man who is stopped on the brink of becoming a villian before he goes as far as taking a life. What the story turns out to be is the story of how he BECOMES a true villian. Brilliant. But, it's Joss so let me add a very eloquent 'Duh'.

[ edited by yo-saff-bridge on 2008-07-20 01:16 ]
Well,guns have worked before.after all, Buffy killed the Judge with a missile-luncher,didn't she?
In the end, Penny still believed in Captain Hammer as a hero, even if she didn't like him as a person. I guess that's good thing. Also,good point,I don't see Billy going back to the laundromat now.
And now Dr Horrible has the top 3 spots on iTunes...
Yeah, bix, agreed. In Act I - and even after Act II - I still felt that it was a way to tell the story of the writers' fight for more control. But then, after Act III? Not so much :) which, of course, meant I had to rewrite the opening paragraph of my review which - silly me - I had written before Act III aired ;)

Krusher: yeah, those were magical days. In a way, freaking out because Buffy was on pause in The Netherlands and having to get by with transcipts of the episodes and freakishly low-quality real media downloads to keep up with the American part of the fandom was part of the fun. You had to really care about a show to wait for those things to download and then watch episodes poststamp-sized on you pc ;). I even had fandom friends in America taping the show, reformatting it to PAL standards and sending it over, at some point. Heh :).

Lani: I'm sure it's okay, don't feel bad! Also: I'm sure that comment wasn't directed at you personally, just in general :)

yo-saff-bridge: yeah, I can't imagine this without Felicia. It's what made the climax hit home even harder. After Act I, I developed one of those spontaneous-geek-television-crushes on Felicia (also because Penny - not Felicia - completely reminds me of the girl I had an on-again-off-again 'thing' with this year, which is now finally and definately 'off' ;)). So I could totally relate to Billy in 'On the Rise' (I have also so been that guy in the past), and then, well, Penny died. I still hold that the reaction to the death was what made it impressive, dramatically, but the death itself is what has had me semi-depressed all day ;)

ETA: tss, still not hit that '700' mark? We're a bunch of slackers ;)

[ edited by GVH on 2008-07-20 01:29 ]
I don't have the numbers in front of me, but this sure is one of the biggest if not the biggest and in a fairly short amount of time as well. I'll try to get some numbers together a little later on. I know that I speak for the rest of the admins/mods when I say thanks for your support during good times and troublesome times. There is no place like this one on the web. Cheers to you all for making that so and for making this a place that so many of us are proud to call 'home' online.
One of the most fun about this is to get to experience it live, at the same time. Normally,I either have to wait til it airs here,or a couple of hours/days to find it elsehwere, while others discuss it while it airs or inmediately after and I never get to take part in those threads.With a web-series, everyone cans,it's really cool to think of everyone at the same time watching this. I hope to see more series adopt the format.
Thanks, GVH. No worries; I didn't take it personally. I know how I meant it, but I didn't want anyone getting upset thinking everyone was saying that, when it was just little ol' me, talking about stuff when I didn't have a clue about the context in this specific community. It was all me and all unintentional, so anyone offended by Joss's want/need thing, that's on me. I'm in another community where people are getting really mad at people who disagree, which surprises me a bit. Here I didn't see that at all. I definitely don't want to engender that by accidentally smacking my forehead on a sore spot. Thanks for understanding!

For those who can't imagine the series going on without Felicia, I'm really with you. She was the heart of it, and now that Dr. Horrible's soul has been obliterated, I'm not sure the funny/happy can come back again. And it's that sweet/sour contrast that was part of what made this so great, I think. Plus, Felicia was so damn good in this. I loved her in The Guild, too. Loved her as Vi. I look forward to seeing her in whatever else she does. And I hope whatever it is, there's some singing. She's amazing.

Man, I need this soundtrack.
I might even be interested in musicals after watching this.
It's the afternoon of the next day (in NZ) and after finishing at 3am yesterday, I can safely say I'm still CRUSHED.

Thanks Joss for giving us what we need, and not necessarily what we want. You created a powerful project that stays in our hearts!
Krusher said: "And I bet Nathan could do a mean Elvis impression :D"

At the first (and only) Flanvention- Ron Glass was talking about his youth growing up in Indiana... and Nathan basically stole the mic from him and started doing an Elvis impersonation and singing "In The Ghetto"

He was actually very good, and it was very funny (even if was being a mic hog)
Perhaps I'm the first with this, but does anyone think of this still from the event as Ghostbusters?

Click!

Marshmellowman!

Or, I might be old to remember that :P

MikeTMC is there a recording him doing that??

[ edited by Krusher on 2008-07-20 01:57 ]
Its been mentioned, Krusher, but a Ghostbusters reference is always awesome.
I remember Ghostbusters (and Mama).

But noone has mentioned the most depressing thing of all about Act 3, namely the complete and total lack of a second Bad Horse reprise. Let the wailing and gnashing of teeth commence!
Lani: no need to be scared of changing whedonesque into a crowd of infighting.. crowd-member-thingies (my eloquency has gone out the door, seeing as it's 3 in the night here ;)). In my experience, this is one of the friendliest and well-behaved places on the net (and certainly the only spot I know off like this, with as many active members as whedonesque has) and I like to think that's not all because of our tough-but-fair guys and gals in orange, but because we're an intelligent and positive fandom, despite our (sometimes deeply rooted) disagreements on things. Wow, this was going to a 'I love you guys!'-kinda-place real quick there ;)

okelay: I know! I've always told myself I disliked musicals, now I'm thinking I just saw the wrong ones and find myself wanting to see more :)

ETA:
But noone has mentioned the most depressing thing of all about Act 3, namely the complete and total lack of a second Bad Horse reprise.


Then again, we did see the cowboys again and heard the music, so I guess there's still a silver lining somewhere ;)

[ edited by GVH on 2008-07-20 02:03 ]
So, I only just now did my first full run-through of all three acts, from the iTunes downloads, on my TV. The three acts one right after the other really do flow and pace extraordinarily well.

(I wonder perhaps if some of the initial criticisms about Act Three were the result of how ones senses warp with anticipation when one is watching something, especially the end of something, for the first time?)

I now wonder if I can handle watching it in full in a room of many people, because this first time through all three acts in a row, the very ending moments crashed down on me hard.
I just wanted to jump into the Whedoneque love-fest. I'd be lost without all you brilliant people putting my thoughts into words. And huge thanks to Caroline and all the mods who work so hard to keep the black so black. Also to the Whedon gang for all that essential emotional resonance. (I'm trying to think of a superlative to put in here, but they all seem to fall short!)

As for Billy, I don't think he would have been able to kill CH, but a part of him certainly died when Penny died; he shut down to avoid the overwhelming pain of it, then just sort of numbly rode the tide to supervillainy. DH could walk through the party smiling, and gear up for induction into the ELoE, but the real Billy can't feel a thing.

As another musical line asks, "Where do we go from here?"

(Sequel, please?)
I reckon you can build up your immunity before next week, b!x . . . :-)
MattK said: "Before the statue was "unveiled", I was wondering how they'd made one on such a low budget. I was wondering if they'd talked an over-eager arts student into making one for them. :)

I, for one, am glad they didn't make a Nathan statue. If they had- then then the prop collector in me would want to try and find it to go along with my Jayne statue. The last thing I need to be doing is to start collecting more *life-sized* action figures. (grin)
Heh, the moment I got here, I always wanted to be able to post. That Christmas present a year ago, was a real treath :) Love this place, have been reading a long time. Good to be part of the writing people. Thank you.

As another musical line asks, "Where do we go from here?"


Buffy, the Musical. Wich I'm about to watch now.

[ edited by Krusher on 2008-07-20 02:10 ]
The last thing I need to be doing is to start collecting more *life-sized* action figures.

But then you could be that guy, at cons, that people point at going, "He's the life-sized action figure guy!"

(And then you could try to "procure" that life-sized Sean Maher that Joss says he has.)
Wait, MikeTMC, are you saying you own the statue from Jaynestown? *blinks*. Or did you make your own replica? :)

ETA: Krusher, dude, get some sleep already! :p I thought I was the only one with a messed-up day-night cyclus ;)

[ edited by GVH on 2008-07-20 02:12 ]
@GVH it's weekend, and a special one at that (Whedon show and whatnot) Sleep all day and party at night ;) (what movie is that from? hehe)
GVH, I know he owns the head and the nameplate. Dunno if he ever located/obtained the rest.
GVH- Yes, I have the top and bottom of the original Jaynestown statue. Got it from Adam at the charity auction at the first Flanvention.

I've spent the last three years trying to track down the body to re-assemble The Hero of Canton (a la the Ariel Ambulance)... but it appears to have been destroyed.

During Mutant Enemy Strike Day- I briefly talked to Joss to see if he knew of it's whereabouts. (I'd heard a really bizarre rumor that it was in his garage)

Joss said he didn't have it- to which I replied: "Yeah, who's going to keep a headless body in their garage for 6 years."

Joss reply was classic: "Oh, I didn't say that I didn't have *any* headless bodies in my garage... just not THAT one!" (grin)

And stupid me walked that picket line for 2 hours NEVER KNOWING that Ben Edlund was right frikkin' there! (that's what I get for not knowing what he looked like)
Color me impressed and jealous, then MikeTMC (that's a greenish-blue, I'd say?) :) Where/how did you locate that (I'm sure there's a lovely blog-post on that somewhere? ;)) ETA: never mind. Posting at the same time there, heh :). This, however, is a great story! I can't believe iconic props like that just get destroyed, though. It's madness, I tell you :)

also: fair, enough Krusher, fair enough ;)

[ edited by GVH on 2008-07-20 02:21 ]
Joss reply was classic: "Oh, I didn't say that I didn't have *any* headless bodies in my garage... just not THAT one!" (grin)


Gotta love him for that, lmao
Okelay, do give musicals a try! May I suggest "Into the Woods" a really great Stephen Sondheim musical that is intelligent, funny, tragic, and very accessible.
You know, thinking about the Captain Hammer statue just reminded me of something our OTHER Captain said to Jayne:

MAL: "It's my estimation that every man ever got a statue made of him was one kind of sommbitch or another. Ain't about you, Jayne. 'Bout what they need."

(b!x- I'm unfamiliar of this life-sized Sean Maher of which you speak...)
MikeTMC: Here is where the reference is from.
I'll add 'Into the woods' to my movies-to-watch list. I've heard a lot about 'Wicked',I have a friends who's a huge fan. So far, my only experience with musicals is OMWF and recently, Across the Universe. If Stephen Sondheim's are half as good as Joss's, I'm sold.
That was a great interview bix- quite funny (EBiao)- youch! Thanks for the link.
Hammer should have known. you just don't F@#$ with "DOOGIE"

Just goes to show what happens to you when you lose your practice.

great work joss/co. It's funniest thing you'll find on the net.
I'm so GLAD i made registration just recently. I'm a bit of a late addition to everything whedon (was only introduced to Buffy at the start of season 3), missed firefly and serenity completely (till recently). I've loved "stalking" this page though - you know wednesdays and friday 'cept twice last month you missed the weekend.

i've loved following this thread. Some comments have really hit home.

I've just got one question. Sometimes Immense grief can be the catalyst for destroying a person as Joss so clearly has demonstrated. However immense grief can also be redemptive, why doesn't joss ever show that side of things?

after finally working up the nerve to re-watch Act3 i can see how it really does fit that it ends this way, but still i think it would have fit just as well if it was the story of redemption.

Thanks for letting me join the not-quite-so-little whedonesque family.
It's funny/peculiar - I also just watched all three acts together, and I am (surprisingly, to me) hit with a heavier wave of loss than last night.

Quite honestly, it's come as a bit of a shock to me to experience this - I tend to have a bit more distance, especially with the amount of fictional pain I have regularly devoured for about 48 years in thousands of books, movies, plays and (but less so) TV shows.

Though BtvS "The Body" did and still does hit me like a ton of bricks, and I have felt bad at various other Whedon'verse deaths, I *looks around and hopes not to get hit with a car* never cried at Tara's death, sniffed a little at Wash's and Book's deaths, felt bad about Anya & Doyle, cried a bit when Fred died, didn't cry for Cordelia... as much as I've loved and been moved by these pieces, Doctor Horrible is acting on me in a whole new way.

Is it the way I experienced it - online, at the same time as eleventy-kabillion other people? Was it the release model? - only a few days in between? Is it the writing, and the music - both wonderful and moving - and the fact that I am particularly susceptible to music? Is it the wonderful acting and singing - both Neil and Felicia so emotive and so vulnerable? (Nathan being wonderful, of course, but not drawn, I think, as intimately or sympathetically...)

Is it the two significant deaths I've experienced personally in the past few years? Is it the tragedy of watching such a sympathetic character careening madly towards the destruction of his soul, and the helplessness of knowing it as inevitable?

Is it what it says about humanity, and how close it fits in with what I believe myself? It feels like the pain is like the pain you'd feel if you saw two butterflies crushed underheel - innocence and beauty, replaced by loss and emptiness.

I dunno. I really do not. I guess I know that good art will do that to you, but I really haven't experienced this before in quite this way. I just know I feel really sad - and I am totally - what's that great word? Oh, yes, gobsmacked by it. My partner still hasn't seen Acts II and III and he's away for the day and I got away with not spoiling him by being asleep when he left, but I'm sorta dreading his return, when he will say cheerily, "Wanna watch Act II and III with me now?" 'Cause it's gonna hurt him, too, and I don't like to see him hurt.

I just thought I'd say. I'm not really sure why. I'm not usually such a Drama Queen, despite my acting background.
GVH, the parallel between Dr. Horrible and the Nerds -- with the exception of Warren, who was moving from ordinary guy spinelessness to sociopathy, the nerds had no idea what being "supervillains" entailed. Jonathan was pretty horrified when his actions led indirectly to Katrina's death -- neither Jonathan nor Andrew anticipated murder or even real violence, just stuff like, well, freeze rays (see "Smashed"). Dr. Horrible was trying to get into the Evil League of Evil. It's kind of implied from the singing cowboy-gram that the much-admired Bad Horse is responsible for killing people, and Dr. Horrible is trying out for Bad Horse's team. Btw, anybody else keep reading "Dark Horse" as "Bad Horse" now?

One other thing that occurs to me -- whatever happens to people we love in Whedonia, people we hate always get their comeuppance. In that, there's always the question of, was it worth it? I mean, without Penny's death, I think the great majority of viewers would have been all in favor of seeing Captain Hammer curled up in the fetal position, wailing on his therapist's rug. Do we want that enough for what it took to get him there? That's another question raised. It's raised in "Angel" and "Firefly"/"Serenity" -- I'd argue that it's not usually raised in "Buffy" so much, because those situations kept winding up that if they did nothing, the status quo would *still* not remain; instead, everybody would die. Still tragic losses, but not losses that could have been avoidable if choices had not been made.

And thanks to the board keepers/moderators for making sure this site went back up -- Yay Team Whedonesque!
Whee, 700 comments! :) Now I can actually go. to. frikking. sleep ;) (it's 4:30 in the morning here ;)) Good night for now, y'all. It was a memorable day on the black.

also, Shapenew, I see you've posted that comment on both threads, heh :)

ETA: also, Quotergal, if you want one, here's a free online hug, no charge: {}. It's only the special art that can hit us this hard. I'll probably toss-and-turn a bit tonight as well.

[ edited by GVH on 2008-07-20 03:37 ]
700 comments? really? 22 hours already.
Well,QuoterGal,It hurts, but the pain is worth it.
HUGS for all who need it. Like GVH, it's 4:40am when I type this, time to say good night. Altough I'll be watching Serenity.

Oh and make it a 1000 post :D Night night people.
I now wonder if I can handle watching it in full in a room of many people, because this first time through all three acts in a row, the very ending moments crashed down on me hard.

theonetruebix | July 20, 02:02 CET


I watched it twice all the way through, and I wasn't able to laugh (well, as much). No, actually not really at all. It's probably because it's still too fresh in my mind, and I know what's happening, but boy, does Act 3 shift the whole story!

And, bix, I don't think I can "boo" with you. You might build up your immunity, but I don't think I can. It's just... so sad. :(

And, yeah, QG, I was numb and in complete shock when I first watched it, separate from the other 2 acts. But, I still totally cried. It was worse, and now I had no funny.

Shapenew, yep, I still see "Dark Horse" as "Bad Horse". I wonder if that's where the gang drew the ultimate evil person idea from...
 Just watched Act III. Still in mild shock. (Joss you #$%@!)
 I’d been imagining all sorts of silly endings—Penny being Bad Horse, Captain Hammer being inducted to the ELoE (because he gets what Dr. Horrible wants)—never thought I was watching a super-villain origins movie, or what the final motive would be.
 I guess I forgot whose work I was watching…

 (Someone ought to put out a Wanted poster on Joss, listing all our favorite characters he’s killed off.)
Thanks, GVH, okelay, and Korkster - you are all pips and peaches.

I'm already just a tad embarrassed, but hell, that's what spilling feelings will do to you - and it all beats feeling numb, and that's a fact.
In another weird coincidence... I just re-watched the credits for Act III, and The Leage of Evil's Fury Leika was played by none other than Liz Vassey (Captain Liberty from THE TICK)

I didn't recognize her at all! (and I have no idea what her character is... as a Russian German camera villain would be spelled Leica)

[ edited by MikeTMC on 2008-07-20 03:58 ]
It is Whedonesque...
The comedy, the tragedy, the story ;(

I put it on my iPhone, now to spread the blog!
GVH, thanks -- I was wondering where that comment went ... will delete from other thread!
and I have no idea what her character is... as a Russian German camera villain would be spelled Leica

Maybe it's supposed to be Leica but they k'd it for trademark reasons? Because I went to the same place, trying to figure out what she was.
I now wonder if I can handle watching it in full in a room of many people, because this first time through all three acts in a row, the very ending moments crashed down on me hard.

Ditto. I had to go take a nap. (Except I don't have to worry about how I'll react in a full room since I'll only be going to Comic Con vicariously through you all.)

Quoter Gal, maybe it was that with all the other characters that you listed, they had been loved and loved in return the characters around them. Penny never really had that chance, and neither did Billy. So, it's a double whammy. Sucks more.

MikeTMC, I have a double dose of jealously. But I feel bad that the body will never be re-united, too.

[ edited by NYPinTA on 2008-07-20 04:10 ]

[ edited by NYPinTA on 2008-07-20 04:12 ]
Someone punnier than myself points out to me what Fury Leika means.

"Hell hath no..."
Hahaha. Damn. That's good.
You know since I did a rewatch of Act III around 1:30 a.m., I haven't been able to bring myself to watch Dr. Horrible. I think I'm still in that much shock. I just did not see that coming. I knew it was going to be darker than the first two acts, I mean, "Brand New Day" is fundamentally dark song, so it gave me warning for the upcoming agnst. I just didn't expect Joss, Jed, Zac and Maurissa to pull the chair out from under me the level of darkness it had. I think by tomorrow I will be ready to see it, but right it's just to fresh in my mind.
Thanks, bix- that's brilliant (and I would have never made that connection)

NYPinTA I haven't given up on the statue yet. I'll continue to look- and if all else fails, maybe Rob Hall/Almost Human kept the molds in their studio.

I wouldn't be opposed to commissioning a recast of the "middle" if it were possible.
Been away for a few hours and return to find that the conversation still goes on actively. I was at a party with a couple who are the only other non-Whedonesque Whedon-lovers I know in my town, but they haven't looked at Dr. Horrible yet. They've already downloaded it, but they haven't watched it. It was all I could do to refrain from saying anything -- I so wanted to talk about it to people in the same room.

That is to say -- damn, I'm so happy to be a part of this community -- in a different kind of "room." It's wonderful to be able to discuss something we are all so passionate about -- but to be able to discuss it reasonably, intelligently, respectfully.

To quote z from above, There is no place like this one on the web. I heartily agree. And I do believe this is our longest thread (jeez, we were desperate to discuss something new from ME, weren't we?). Weren't the Serenity threads in the 500s? They seem so long ago.

Nighty night.

ETA: corrected drunken typo. That is, the typist is drunk, not the typo.

[ edited by palehorse on 2008-07-20 04:29 ]
Good. We're still 1,2,&3 on iTunes. I'm sort of surprised that there isn't more news. It's like the day stopped for this (which would be awesome). Yeah, I checked the other threads, but not much activity in the past 20-something hours.

Is it always like this? I usually only do "computer things" during the week, but I couldn't miss Dr. H for anything. Just surprised.

Oh, BTW, it was mentioned and discussed that Penny wasn't phased when Billy said he wanted to be like Bad Horse. After reviewing, I'd have to disagree. She's shocked and bewildered, finds it odd, and the sighs and carries on.
Good luck to you then, MikeTMC. :)

She's shocked and bewildered, finds it odd, and the sighs and carries on.

Well, he covers so brilliantly with "Ghandi". ;P

[ edited by NYPinTA on 2008-07-20 04:29 ]
Kudos and thanks to J, Z, J & M for a successful, satisfying (and yet heart-wrenching) and momentous event/project.

Cheers to the many wonderful insights and comments from everyone here and bouncing (hopefully sans Wonderflonium) across the Interweb. Thanks for engaging my brain long enough for me to put my heart back in my chest.

IMO I think the impact of Act III is enhanced due to our ability to watch each previous Act multiple times and get filled with all the happy/fluffy musicality & comedy -- not to mention the giddiness of a new Whedonverse project. The hints of the darkness to come are easily overlooked (even when pointed out on these threads) for the misdirected hope of Dr. Horrible's redemption through his love for Penny. So when Act III hits, it's a sucker-punch. I purposely re-watched Acts 1 and 2 before watching Act 3 for the first time last night. It was just as big a thwack as if I had not done so, simply because I lived the previous Acts, and Act 3 was brand new and oh so different tonally.

I am looking forward to sitting with my peers at Comic-Con to watch it as one continuous performance, because even as the act of watching it as a global community is unique, the fans watching it together in one location for the first time will be as well -- much like the first Serenity fan screenings (or in my case, the first CSTS screenings). I dearly hope for costumes, cheering & boo-hissing to occur. :)
classic stuff...and i should have known joss would end it like that. *sigh* but well done, well done. good to see the "Grr Argh" again too :)
crazygolfa, I would heartily recommend re-watching it. Just a warning, though- the tone of the 2 prior acts shift because we now know the ending (as I've stated with others above). However, it's solid.

I was worried about watching it like you did, but after about 2 hours of reading and commenting on the black last night, I sucked it up and watched it again... so glad I did. I relate it to bicycle riding for the first time. You fall, it's scary, but if you don't get back on, you'll miss out on the wonderful ride ahead.

I wouldn't be opposed to commissioning a recast of the "middle" if it were possible.

MikeTMC | July 20, 04:26 CET


Why commission out the middle when you can have a real "life-size" action figure like Joss? Just sayin'
MizBehavin1, some people (like myself) agree with the attachment of Acts 1 & 2... as is evident by our hearts ripped out and scattered on the floor.

Even after re-watching as a whole, though, it's still too soon to laugh again. Yep, can't wait for CC.

Jed & Maurissa have requested that people be dressed up, so I for one won't be letting them down. I don't think I can acquire the exact lab coat Dr. H uses, but I may just take the one I have, along with goggles & a t-shirt. Hmmm... wonder where I could get some gloves.
You could probably find something pretty close.
Oh, BTW, it was mentioned and discussed that Penny wasn't phased when Billy said he wanted to be like Bad Horse. After reviewing, I'd have to disagree. She's shocked and bewildered, finds it odd, and the sighs and carries on.

This underscores Penny's own flaw: Her hope is blind. She catches glimpses of the real world, but then goes back to dreamily believing everyone and everything can and will be "up".
You could probably find something pretty close.

Is that supposed to be Mad Scientist Mozart or something?
Thanks, zeitgeist, but I'm with bix on this one. But you do give me an idea to search through Halloween on-line stores to see if they got something.

The hair reminds me of River's freak-out with Sheppard Book's hair. :) Good times...
Rock Me Amadeus.
And then there's this which turned the minority opinion into this lede: "Many fans on-line were disappointed by the conclusion of the three-part webisode Dr. Horrible's Sing Along Blog."
I don't think they used the word "disappointed" properly.
Speaking of Dr Horrible's costume, his lab coat seems to be the hardest to find. for the goggles and gloves, I reccomend going to a hardware store.I checked one here online and they had similar ones.they're a kind of wielding goggles. I haven't been able to find the coat. I've searched online but there's so,so many places that have labcoats. but I've found some kind of 'protection' labcoat is closer to Dr Horrible's. or you can just get getone made.
they probably just missed the last 500 or so posts on this thread.
I went to that article to give them a piee of my mind.they clearly do not know what they're talking about. I know what having someone harsh your squee is like.I've suffered through it. This wasn't it.
Is this a new record for most responses for a single subject? This is bigger than Batman and Indidna Jones. While I may not dress like Dr. Horrible for Comic-Con (I'm leaning towards Wash and MST3K), I'll be wearing the DH t-shirt, for sure.
Yes, I do believe that it is. I'm too lazy to write a script to tell you for sure :) Its the biggest one that I can recall by a good 200 or more comments.
Do a thread on Astronauts vs Cavemen, that is about the only topic that could beat this one.
Except now that we know, thanks to the singing of Dr Horrible, that cavemen are afraid of thunder. All the astronauts have to do is... er, fake thunder... and they win.
Okay. A prize to anyone who can tell me how many time I've seen each Act (especially ActII in which I found myself transcribing the music - the duet nearly killed me!). Then all of them together over and over. Really. Tell me, cause I lost count!

Ouchy ending was really painful. But, it kinda eased on the fourth viewing and now I love it. I would count the days until the DVD comes out, but not knowing the days would make it hard... *waits for announcement*

OT: Spike: After the Fall thread, anyone? *confused*
The thread is here, Mirage. Just a little buried by other events.
That article made me very angry at lazy journalism, which was brought up only 24 hours ago. Why quote "us" if they're not going to do a thorough job? Ugh.

okelay, a protection lab coat, huh? Hmmm. Red Kapp(?) didn't have what I thought would be similar. Could you tell me what company you found for yours?

Dr. H Questions:

1) When Billy is fleeing the Laundromat, and he goes to the washer, he says...?... "I don't love these"? What exactly does he say? I can't quite catch it.

2) On Act 1, when all three are singing, Penny's vocals are drowned out by the guys, but the line after her "heart is beating like a drum", blah? blah? blah? "must be from shock"... what does she say there? Does anyone know?

Thanks, zeitgeist, for your vague report. I'll just take your word on it. :)

Mirage, as I mentioned before, it's crickets on the other threads at the moment. Who has time when they're trying to keep up with this bad boy?
Korkster: I heard the line the same way: "I don't love these" as in he can do without those clothes if it gets him out of the laundromat....

Bix: I liked what you had to say about Penny's blind hope -- that she doesn't perceive the "filth and lies" but only "rapture". Maybe there's a way in between? And if Penny does represent the writer's strike in any way, perhaps blind optimism doesn't work any better than corporate tools or fascists...? Just like Joss to not give us any hard and fast answers!
I always enjoy Whedonesque dialogue, but this had the added attraction of a musical score that was very enjoyable.

I'd not been a fan of NPH--probably because I've not really watched him in anything before--but he did an amazing job. His facial expressions were fabulous and so on the money for his character.
When Billy is fleeing the Laundromat, and he goes to the washer, he says...

"I don't want these" is what I hear.
I wish our Purpleness would write us.

Hey, Purple Pimp, did you guys throw a party in your lair after shooting? Like in the show? Cuz that would have been amazing.
So... are we allowed to sing at CC? I have all the songs memorized except for Dr. H's last one. Even then, I don't think I could do his justice.
I just did a very unscientific poll on keywords used in this thread to see if I could get a wide understanding on how well/badly the show was received by Whedonesquers (...is there such a word?) here are the results, Read into it what you will.

Love = Used 272 times
Evil = Used 106 times
Happy = Used 45 times
Brilliant = Used 43 times
Surprise = Used 43 times
Hate = Used 36 times
Amazing = Used 35 times
Disappoint = Used 25 times
Beautiful = Used 19 times
Predictable = Used 12 times
Depressing = Used 9 times
Didn’t expect = Used 9 times
Didn’t like = Used 8 times
Terrible = Used 5 times
Excellent = Used 3 times
Not happy = Used once

[ edited by Crypto on 2008-07-20 06:42 ]

[ edited by Crypto on 2008-07-20 06:43 ]
Wow. Look at how "disappointed" we all are! Like, 25 times! Yep, that's everyone.
My favorite songs form Act 3:

"So They Say"
"Dr. Horrible's Scary Song"
"Dr. Horrible's Resolution Song"

My Overall Top Songs:
"Freeze Ray"
"On the Rise"
"Brand New Day"
"So They Say"
"Dr. Horrible's Scary Song"
"Dr. Horrible's Resolution Song"

Hey, how come the Acts are still available? Shouldn't they be down now? I thought they go down at 12:01AM EST 7/20.
korkster! Shush!
Listening to it right now...

"Bunch of scary alcoholic bums!"

One of my favorite lines from Captain Hammer.

Sorry, NYP. Just wanted to make sure I wasn't crazy. I've been waiting up to see when we'll get the reports of how they did (hopefully).

[ edited by korkster on 2008-07-20 06:52 ]
No, the last day is 7/20. They go down at midnight tonight.
Ah, thanks, cabri. Somehow I missed a day there, or mine just stretched out for eternity.

And, does anyone know why Dr. Horrible will only be available until the 29th? Is it to make sure we buy it sooner than later? Do artists have to "rent" a spot on iTunes?
I think it will remain available on Itunes just not on the website
Question:

CH's "Everyone's a Hero" song, does he say "if you're not a freaking tard you will prevail"? Wow.

Oh. "Dr. Horrible's Scary Song" = "Slipping"
I think the actual pronunciation is "friggin", but yes.
I think it's "friggin'" but yeah.
*sigh* Does this mean I owe you a beer?
I'll take a beer. Franzikaner, please. Actually, I'll pass. One more and I might slip out of my chair, hit my head on the desk, and take a rug nap.
Okay so, Penny gets a shard in the gut (just where Wash did) and I said: "Jesus Christ, I am so sick of this shit."

So it continues and I'm still involved with the story and I'm into the last number and then comes the final edit, the final shot, the final word.

And it's perfect.

And I said: "Okay, Joss you did it. You pulled it off. It works. As a work of art it totally comes together."

But after Wash, after Book, after Renee (Buffy comics), after Kitty Pryde (X-Men - and i know she didn't die but Joss beat up on her real good); I can't believe this guy can still set me up so I don't see it coming.

But never again! From now on I will with every shot of Dollhouse, and Cabin in the Woods, and Goners, and every panel of Buffy; I will expect someone likeable to die.

No sequel for Dr. Horrible. The ending was a perfect for a tragedy.

But I really see Batman1016's point. This is now a cliche. And Joss should give us an upbeat ending at least once.

And there was a way for a happy ending. Cut to a shot of Penny noticing Dr. Horrible was hesitant to pull the trigger. Then what happens happens except Penny doesn't get her patented WhedonCo Pointed-Object-in-the-Gut. She sings about his inner goodness and he sings about how she brought it out in him and Joss would make that clever and funny because we all know he can do that. And bada-boom, bada-bing, there's your happy ending.

But never again will I be sucker-punched by you, Joss Whedon.

Never again.
Did Snake Bite from ELOE look like a cat or something with pointed ears, or was that just me? Ah, naw. Now she reminds me of Medusa.
(just where Wash did)

Wash was the chest, not the gut. Although, to be fair, Penny had one in the chest in addition to in the gut.
So I take it that you just watched it, batmarlowe, because we all felt the same way about 700 comments ago. Now people think there was no other way it could have ended without being a copout.

And now, we have it in writing that you won't be sucker-punched. But, that's like slapping someone with your glove... the duel is on, and my money is on Joss. If he couldn't sucker-punch you, he wouldn't be doing his job and there wouldn't us who love him so much.

If you've only watched it once, I suggest watching again (at least twice). It gets better, in a way.
Wash was the chest, not the gut. Although, to be fair, Penny had one in the chest in addition to in the gut.

To make sure she was dead, I guess.

Do you suppose Billy pulled out the shards before carrying her to the bed-thing? Cuz they're not there anymore.
Do you suppose Billy pulled out the shards before carrying her to the bed-thing? Cuz they're not there anymore.

Elsewhere, some medicos were saying they ought not to have done that, because if he, or whoever, had left them in, there might have been a chance to save her. Oops!
Ok, I spent today distancing myself from this and going to my not-caring place as per my earlier post. I watched the 3 acts together tonight and still feel the same way as before about the ending. (ie: This is a disappointment because it is a tease or beginning for something that may never happen, rather than a story that should stand alone.) I still also like a lot of other stuff about it.

I figured I'd mention a few things that had occurred to me in that other stuff. I thought it interesting that whereas Dr. Horrible's first song, "Freeze Ray" seemed like it was going to head right into part of "I'd Like to Teach the World to Sing", his last song, as mentioned various times, is very "Sweeny Todd." It made a clear transition from twisted idealism to twisted revenge inspired cynicism.

Again, as pointed out earlier, "A Man's Got to Do", the song directly after "Freeze Ray" begins the downward spiral. I don't know about anyone else, but I have heard that sentiment plenty of times from men as an excuse reason to do selfish things. Although I agree with the comment about facists vs. capitalist fighting over pennies, it is also men fighting the age old battle for pride and power while the women try to get them to focus on more immediate real life concerns. The women get slammed in the end, and are a nameless footnote at best while the men go on to glory and usually realize that getting what they wanted did not give them what they wanted after all.

As far as killing characters to create a transition in another character, as I said, I did not mind Penny dying in this. However, Joss has been using it a lot...like a whole lot and it is after all a cliche that has been around forever. I would love to see him mix it up a little more. I do love when Joss mixes the dark and light and it gets really complex. Killing off characters and going totally dark does not necessarily make art. My son and I were watching Rambo 2 tonight. (We're hitting the classics. ;-) ) Neither of us had seen it before. near the beginning, the woman says she wants a peaceful life. My son and I say together, "She's going to die." Later, in spite of the acting and dialog, she and Rambo have a touching scene where he is finally making a human connection and they decide to just leave and go to the USA together. My son says, "She is definitely going to die by the end." I say, "She's going to die a lot sooner than that; like any minute." Cue bullets and Rambo turning into a killing machine with darkness ensuing. The discussion on this thread and the earlier one about Renee came to mind.
Good going, Dr. H!
(ie: This is a disappointment because it is a tease or beginning for something that may never happen, rather than a story that should stand alone.)

This is actually the point that I can't seem to grasp. They could never do anything Horrible-related again and this would stand perfectly well on its own, I think.

...it is also men fighting the age old battle for pride and power while the women try to get them to focus on more immediate real life concerns

Although in this case the woman herself seems so determined to be hopeful that she's blinded herself to the way the people around her really are. So she's not exactly pure here, either.

(ETA that yes, I originally managed to type "the way people around HERE really are". D'oh.)

[ edited by theonetruebix on 2008-07-20 07:28 ]
I'm a little confused by the political undertones (or overtones) but to me the most clear message seems to be that while heroes and villains do their thing, the sweet vegetarian liberal will always end up getting f***ed.

I admit I WOULD have liked to see her turning it all around by standing up to both of them. But it's very consciously a tragedy-masked-as-comedy.
Eh, I don't think Dr. H could have saved her by leaving the shards in. Personal point.

newcj, I get that with Rambo and other movies, the predictableness of it, but, like mentioned several times over in this thread... even though Joss may seem to pull the same trick, we were all caught off guard. Some didn't even realize that she was still in the room when the explosion happened.

We all kind of had the feeling that there was a downward spiral, but it was such a fun ride that most forgot that the end stop was doom. I mean, I sure did. It was all fun and games until someone got killed. And, true, some may have known it was going to happen, that Penny was going to die, but it's the HOW that gets me. Honestly, who could predict that (without looking back)?
Although in this case the woman herself seems so determined to be hopeful that she's blinded herself to the way the people around her really are. So she's not exactly pure here, either.

Absolutely. IMO that is something women are often prone to do...see what they want to see in the men in their lives and forgive them way more than they should.
Nice correction, bix. However true it may sometimes be.

*cough*
the sweet vegetarian liberal will always end up getting f***ed

The sweet vegetarian liberal who refused to see the world as it was? ;)

Meanwhile, for whatever it's worth, I was sure, originally, that the voice singing "everything you ever" during the final song was, in fact, Penny's. And the idea made it seem all the more haunting to me. Felicia says, however, that it wasn't her.

[ edited by theonetruebix on 2008-07-20 07:32 ]
Eh, Penny seemed to be clearing her blindness of Captain Hammer. Billy stayed "pure" in her eyes because she didn't get a chance to see his aspirations.

I think it's a little unfair to pigeon-hold our characters. They didn't seem to be "just that". People aren't perfect, or the ELOE wouldn't be run by a horse.
I thought it was the groupies, bix. Didn't hear FD at all.
Penny seemed to be clearing her blindness of Captain Hammer.

"It's okay. Captain Hammer will save us."

I thought it was the groupies, bix. Didn't hear FD at all.

To be clear, I wasn't thinking it sounded like her, specifically. In my head, it was sort of a symbolic voice from beyond haunting through the song. The groupies, though, is a good thought.

[ edited by theonetruebix on 2008-07-20 07:37 ]
IMO that is something women are often prone to do...see what they want to see in the men in their lives and forgive them way more than they should.

Uh, could you change that to "some" women and not group us all in that category please. Thanks.
Bix,

"The sweet vegetarian liberal who refused to see the world as it was? ;)"

Yeah, exactly. Because the naivete is probably being criticized here as an impediment to real change.
BTW, I think Penny saw the world how she wanted it to be and was trying to make it that way. That isn't the same as being blind to it.

Edit: Ok, not *completely* blind. She might have a slight reality stigmatism.

[ edited by NYPinTA on 2008-07-20 07:44 ]
Um, did anybody watch and come up with a slightly different ending? I definitely saw the ending you guys have but its also possible, I think, that none of the last montage happened. That it was the road maybe taken, but that instead, after the events of the climax, he just, as a friend said, dissapeared. That it broke him. I dunno. Anyone?
You mean him being in the ELoE and the party and stuff? That he was imagining what it'd be like now but instead chose to become just Billy again? Hmmm.
newcj, I get that with Rambo and other movies, the predictableness of it, but, like mentioned several times over in this thread... even though Joss may seem to pull the same trick, we were all caught off guard. Some didn't even realize that she was still in the room when the explosion happened.

It seems like he is having to go to greater and greater lengths to catch people off guard. This time he had to go as far as purposely misrepresenting the type of show it was, signaling the audience that this is fluff and silliness, even trying to emphasize the silliness in one of his statements/interviews, saying something like "maybe I should have put silliness first" [on the list.] He did everything he could to tell the audience that this was going to be fun and light from giving it a silly name with sing-a-long in the title to making the two main characters seem like buffoons. What will he have to do next time?

IMO that is something women are often prone to do...see what they want to see in the men in their lives and forgive them way more than they should.

Uh, could you change that to "some" women and not group us all in that category please. Thanks.

NYPinTA | July 20, 07:38 CET


Sorry, writing fast, but I will only change it to "many". I do not think most of us do it all the time, but I do see a huge number of us doing it some of the time. Some people have indicated that the fact that I have a tendency not to do it myself is what makes my relationships...uh...difficult. ;-)
Does anyone know when the panel is??? I think I overlooked it.

I know the screening is like at 10PM-ish, but the panel? Help!
Ok. I can live with "many". ;)
bix:
korkster: Penny seemed to be clearing her blindness of Captain Hammer.

"It's okay. Captain Hammer will save us."


As mentioned before in this thread, she was discovering the third layer of cheese that is Captain Hammer while retaining the notion that he does save people... just isn't "sweet" about it.

newcj:
What will he have to do next time?


Don't know, but I can't wait to find out.

[ edited by korkster on 2008-07-20 07:59 ]
Friday, July 25
1:30-2:30 Joss Whedon— Joss Whedon (Buffy the Vampire Slayer) and the writers and cast of his new short film, Dr. Horrible's Sing-Along Blog, will show never-before-seen clips while Joss also discusses Buffy Season Eight, the Fray crossover, and the upcoming Serenity comic focusing on Shepherd Book. Ballroom 20

10:45-12:00 Dr. Horrible's Sing-Along Blog— The story of a low-rent supervillain (Neil Patrick Harris as Dr. Horrible), the hero who keeps beating him up (Nathan Fillion as Captain Hammer), and the cute girl from the laundromat he's too shy to talk to (Felicia Day as Penny). This musical in three parts, created for the Internet and written by Joss Whedon, Jed Whedon, Zack Whedon, and Maurissa Tancharoen, premieres in its entirety on the big screen at Comic-Con. Room 6B
A lot of people suggested that the ending was very typical of Joss' work, but what it was missing was the underlying message of hope, which ahs generally come after. That's not a critique, just a thought.
Thanks, bix. That's the one I had down. I just wanted to make sure there wasn't another Dr. Horrible panel out there somewhere.

By looking at that list, 1 hours isn't enough time to talk about Dr. Horrible AND Season 8, Fray, & Shepherd Book. There just isn't enough time!

But, I guess it means we can sing at the showing. Why do they give so much time for it, I wonder? It'd be over by 11:30-ish if they started on time. Will the cast be there too?
I agree with you, streetartist. This may appear to be the same trick of Joss, but the execution is different, in my mind. I definitely don't feel hope. Just the emoticon of a frown. :(
Every time I refresh there's so many comments I forget what I wanted to say. I remember wanting to make some point about Penny, but I forget what. The comments were too interesting and erased my memory.
Question:

I think I may have been wrong before. In this article, it shows Dr. Horrible working on a silver twisted gun.

It's not the freeze ray; I initially thought it to be the death ray under-part. But know I'm not so sure, especially since it brings it with him to the bank heist.

So, what is it?
My single favorite moment in the entire production is immediately after Penny's death.

The double meaning in the lines, "Here lies everything/The world I wanted at my feet..." Every time I hear them, (& like many of us, I've watched & rewatched ad infinitum), every time, something tightens in my chest and I can't breath for a moment.
Re: the panel, I've seen Joss say that the entire panel has been given over to Dr. Horrible, despite what the description says. Mainly, the description says that because it's his Dark Horse panel. But in some article Joss said DH had been kind enough to give the entire panel over to Horrible.

Re: the screening, I know that Felicia seems to have this down as something on her calendar, but I don't know about the rest (I'm presuming so, since it's the first public showing). I hadn't even noticed that the time on the screening session is 30 minutes longer than it will take to screen.
Korkster - The "silver twisted gun" is used in the bank heist during which Horrible looks increadibly bored & Moist is dropping moneybags. We are never told exactly what it is.
Sorry, okelay. What I do to keep up is copy and paste any interesting points into the comment box, and then modify it for what I want to say.

Were you going to make a point about her blindness? If not, then I will.

I don't think Penny was blind. She says she grew up "lost and lonely", and her "grief turned to pity for a city barely copin'". I think she's well aware of the status quo, as mentioned in Act 1 (she's all for it), but she's making a difference, one "guy who smells like pooh" at a time.

Captain Hammer may have been the one to open the homeless shelter, but it was Penny's petition that got the ball rolling. It brought "some" awareness to CH, who then presented it to the mayor.

To me, her "Captain Hammer will save us" line is a representation of the two men and their power. CH wants to have (& does) the power to save people. Dr. H wants to have the power to change. Neither of them accomplish this on the "Brand New Day".

I was going somewhere with this... but then got lost...
newcj:
What will he have to do next time?


Don't know, but I can't wait to find out.

[ edited by korkster on 2008-07-20 07:59 ]

korkster | July 20, 07:58 CET


Good grief. I hope Joss never lets it get to the point where his audience is waiting to see how he will fool them into not expecting someone to die. He is just better than that. I would so much rather he put that creative energy into telling the stories in new ways that will achieve the emotional impact he wants.

Off to bed for me.

[ edited by newcj on 2008-07-20 08:18 ]
Alright, but we're agreed that it's not the death ray then?

Hm. Then I was wrong. I think there's actually a screen capture of the stun/death ray and the silver twisty gun side-by-side, which would prove my wrongness.
Sorry. I keep posting, because I keep noticing things I want to comment on. Someone asks how we could've seen the "how" of Penny's death. I can only answer that we are shown that "how" in the first act, when Hammer breaks Horrible's invention and Penny is nearly killed. The exact same thing, in different context, is her ultimate fate. I won't pretend to have foreseen it perfectly, but when it happened the first time, I had an idea that it would be a recurring theme.
Captain Hammer may have been the one to open the homeless shelter, but it was Penny's petition that got the ball rolling. It brought "some" awareness to CH, who then presented it to the mayor.

To get into her pants. Which is why he's sitting around before the opening smiling about how now he's going to get to do the weird stuff.
OT, but some people keep wondering - and I thought it might be an informative aside. I eyeballed the site archives, and came up with a rough n' ready (because I didn't go further back than the beginning of 2005) list of Whedonesque's Most Commented Threads:

1. This one, quite comfortably.

2. Joss Confirms Serenity Screenings, a healthy 535 comments in a June 9, 2005 thread.

3. The Act II discussion, at 478 comments.

4. Let's Watch A Girl Get Beaten to Death, Joss's thoughts on Dua Khalil, which drew 455 comments.

5. The story revealing Dollhouse last November, at 447 comments.

6. Satin Tights No Longer, wherein Joss told us the Wonder Woman news. 424 comments.

7. Who Got Snubbed? A shout-outathon - a nice change of pace on the 2006 Oscars. 415 comments.

8. The Act I discussion thread, with 411 comments.

9. News speculating whether Flanvention II to be cancelled!?, back in November 2006, drawing 365 comments.

10. The discussion regarding missing CSTS funds, with 325 comments.
ok so I bought the season pass but when I go to get act 3 it asks if I want to purchase? What do I do?

[ edited by Rhodey on 2008-07-20 08:26 ]
I didn't realize my comment earned me a "good grief" from you, newcj. I also didn't realize I'd have to explain my comment, but it looks like I'm going to have to.

I don't keep tally marks on "Joss' same trick in the hat". I don't think it's objective to try to boil down his art into how he executes a tragic death. I ride the roller coaster for fun, and, for me, it's different each and every time.

I come here to Whedonesque to slice and dice (like the rest of you), but when I do, I look for other outlooks that I may have missed, which is always quite a few. And to keep tabs on what's going on, of course.

And, yeah, Joss is a roller coaster. There's twists and turns, ups and downs, but a roller coaster is a roller coaster (for the boiled point of view). But, to me, I enjoy those twists and turns, and will keep riding his rides at the theme park, because its fun and educational (edutainment).

So I apologize for causing you grief, and I'm sorry you couldn't enjoy Dr. Horrible as much as I did. But your outlook makes the piece special, and I chose to allow Dr. Horrible to affect me, instead of seeing if he's going to chose a different "hat trick" to achieve an emotional impact that you want.
Thanks, SNT. That was a (sleepy) stumble down memory way.

Really going to bed now.
Rhodey - Go to the "Store" link on the top left of your iTunes, the dropdown menu should have a "Check for Purchases" option. Click that and it should start to download automatically.
ok so I bought the season pass but when I go to get act 3 it asks if I want to purchase? What do I do?

First, try going to the menu marked "Store" and select "Check for Purchases..." and see if it does anything.

Second, make sure it didn't automatically download Act III at some point when you had iTunes running but weren't looking?
Thanks, SoddingNancyTribe. That's exactly what I wanted to know.
Just did that and it says "all purchases have been downloaded for this account." :/
Rhodey - :( I don't have any more advice... I'm an iTunes nwb. Maybe shut down iTunes, reopen, & try again? Good luck & good night.

[ edited by QingTing on 2008-07-20 08:35 ]
To get into her pants. Which is why he's sitting around before the opening smiling about how now he's going to get to do the weird stuff.

theonetruebix | July 20, 08:19 CET


Get to do the weird stuff if he sleeps with her again, which he's never done with another girl. Why even classify her as his girlfriend? He could simply just sleep with her (#1), do the dedication, and move on. Why think about hanging around?

Maybe I just don't get why you refuse to acknowledge that CH is acting out of his norm, and it's because of Penny. Am I missing something here?
He's making a point of referring to Penny as his girlfriend to get to Dr Horrible. That's the impression I got anyway
Thanks for the help QingTing. It seems iTunes may have charged me seperately when I clicked "buy all". >:( the weird thing is it was fine for 1 and 2. It's like they all had to be avaliable at the time to download. ugh
He's making a point of referring to Penny as his girlfriend to get to Dr Horrible.

I didn't think this--does he even know Dr. Horrible is there? He's just an immature imbecile who thinks that the fact that he's considering more than one night with Penny makes her his girlfriend. He's enjoying this new-found Good Samaritan aspect of his image.
I agree, jcs. And, I think I'd better go to bed. Well, may stalk some more, but definitely not comment.

This makes 60 to 11, Saje. Personal record.
So I apologize for causing you grief, and I'm sorry you couldn't enjoy Dr. Horrible as much as I did. But your outlook makes the piece special, and I chose to allow Dr. Horrible to affect me, instead of seeing if he's going to chose a different "hat trick" to achieve an emotional impact that you want.

Please quote me correctly. It was never the emotional impact I want, it was the emotional impact he wants, as in Joss. Big difference. I try to not have any specific expectations when I experience art.

You didn't cause me grief, the image of Joss approaching a project that way did cause me a moment of distress though. Whatever you may think, I also take the roller coaster ride. I try not to look ahead, I just go with it and then think about it later, which is what I did. It is also why I have not posted very much on earlier threads. I was waiting to see what happened in the story. Even so, I always expected more than fluff from this project because it is Joss. As I have said, Penny dying was not a story problem for me, and did not affect the enjoyment of this project. My enjoyment was affected by something totally different, as specified in my earlier posts. I'm just concerned about the pattern I have been seeing develop with the use of the same device used in similar ways over many projects and was expressing that.
I really really want Joss to do The Serving Girl now.

(But please don't kill Summer's character. Or her lover.)

ETA: Er, her character's lover, I mean.

[ edited by jcs on 2008-07-20 08:58 ]
I didn't think this--does he even know Dr. Horrible is there?

He probably doesn't know Dr Horrible is there, but given all the press that was there, it would no doubt surface that Captain Hammer has a girlfriend. In Act II, Captain Hammer says to Dr Horrible "I'm gonna give Penny the night of her life, just because you want her. And I get what you want". So to me it makes sense that's he's doing it just to get to Dr Horrible.

Either that or he's hoping that by Penny being his girlfriend he'll get to do the extra weird stuff =P
I didn't quote you, newcj, that's why there's not quotation marks. I just don't know how we can gauge what Joss wants.

The grief I referred to was the reaction I provoked from you:


newcj: What will he have to do next time?


korkster: Don't know, but I can't wait to find out.


Good grief. I hope Joss never lets it get to the point where his audience is waiting to see how he will fool them into not expecting someone to die.


*my emphasis*

We'll just agree to disagree on the device. I understand your concern, but IMO he hasn't let us down yet.
Either that or he's hoping that by Penny being his girlfriend he'll get to do the extra weird stuff =P

phlebotenum | July 20, 09:01 CET


I think it's this, and not the other thing (rubbing it in Dr. H's face). I mean, sure, if he got the chance, he probably would. However, I'm pretty sure he's unaware of the things around CH that don't directly include him. So, either knowing Dr. H was there, or that the press would deliver the "message", is out of his thought range, IMO.

And, initially, he sleeps with Penny to rub in Dr. H's face. As my mom put it, he's already "soiled the girl", why would CH care about her afterwards (or Dr. H for that matter, in my mom's mind).

The weird stuff= new experiences to had with Penny, because he was affected by her. Totally non-Dr. H centered.
Okay, confirmed the death ray does not equal silver-twisty gun. When Dr. Horrible tapes on "Death" to Stun Ray, it's right next to the silver-twist gun. Therefore, not equal. It's 2:23 in on Act 3.
It's interesting how Joss continues his theme of guns (in this case, rays) not working the way you want them to and having unexpected consequences. Never helpful. Well, occasionally in Firefly.

I dunno, I think it's a continuing acknowledgement that guns are just tools and it's the user that determines how well they work. Warren fires blindly and doesn't kill his target but Jayne (for all his faults) can shoot someone in the neck at 500 yards with a bent scope. Mal and Zoe are similarly proficient. And if you can call a rocket launcher a gun, so's Buffy (I always assumed with Buffy that the non-use of guns was partly a philosophical thing and partly just that it was the elephant in the room - if you wanted to, in today's day and age it'd be trivially easy to kill Slayers left right and centre with a gun and Joss et al realised this kinda pulled the ground from under their world's feet). The "electric gun" given to Buffy by the Initiative malfunctions because it's been altered to do so, again saying guns can easily be co-opted since they're just objects (they don't mean what you think ;).

With Horrible his Freeze-ray (eventually ;) gives him time to kill Captain Hammer BUT it doesn't give him enough time, not because the ray's deficient but because Billy is (at being a murderer). And Hammer doesn't listen to warnings (probably partly because, Superman style, he's never had to before, never felt actual pain) and so the Stun Death ray backfires. In each case the user is at fault, not the gun itself.

ETA: Er, her character's lover, I mean.

So it's OK if he kills her actual lover ? I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that that's frowned upon, even in California ;-).

This makes 60 to 11, Saje. Personal record.

Call Guinness ;).

(can't believe you're actually keeping count ;)
Does anybody know what Captain Hammer says on the couch? Tried searching the internet and found conflicting opinions.
Ok, it has only been 24hrs but I'm dying for a sequel... Bridle of Bad Horse maybe?

...and now I find myself sitting in the sulky of sin.
Does anybody know what Captain Hammer says on the couch?
Something whiny and self-pitying. (Actually, I was wondering that myself--let me know if you find out.)

even in California ;-)
Good thing you remembered that smiley, buster. :)
But I'm sure Joss fulfills all his murderous urges with his fiction.

OK. Enough of this pretending to work. I'm going to sleep.
NPH has one of the most expressive faces I've ever seen
But I'm sure Joss fulfills all his murderous urges with his fiction.

He does write an awful lot doesn't he ;).

Does anybody know what Captain Hammer says on the couch?

Very hard to make out but it sounds something like:

can't make out first line ("I mean it" ETA: "I feel it", "i'm grieving" ??)

"... in my [or maybe "the"] heart" ETA: Nope, pretty sure it's "my"

"... it went in her and she died"

I.e. Hammer might actually be sad about Penny. So maybe it's not the transformative power of love but, as someone mentions upthread, of pain and grief ? Maybe Hammer's story is, pain can be redemptive, it connects us with our own humanity ? Or "I want my pain, I need my pain" as Kirk might say. Makes us who we are and all that (at least as much as what and who we love IMO).

[ edited by Saje on 2008-07-20 11:33 ]
I'm on the road, travelling, so I was reading this thread on my phone last night and then thought the better of it, re: phonebill.

This is from way up thread, but Kris, I quoted Wilde because it's particularly relevant to *me*. My friend recorded an album with the same title and it changed the course of *my* life. So, 'yay', I'm not particularly loving the tone of your comment right now, but... oh, whatever.

On another note... give it up for Media Temple, our new host for giving our site wings.
Yep, they're doing a great job coping with what must be even bigger spikes in traffic than before.

(and as usual, good work to you Caroline and others for getting everything moved over as quickly as humanly possible. Hats off to you ;)
Have we ever had a longer thread than this?
@Nebula1400 -- Short answer = No. Look upthread for SoddingNancyTribe's most recent comment with stats.
And, yeah, Joss is a roller coaster. There's twists and turns, ups and downs, but a roller coaster is a roller coaster (for the boiled point of view). But, to me, I enjoy those twists and turns, and will keep riding his rides at the theme park, because its fun and educational (edutainment).


Okay, this is my favorite might-be-read-as-a-sexual-thing quote of the day (sorry korkster :p)

Saje, that's pretty much what I hear in that couch scene as well. I think it also signifies that he was truly starting to change already, because of Penny, like I mentioned somewhere upthread ;). His Act III song - which is an impromptu speech, without any cards, big deal for an idiot like him ;) - already hinted at that he was finally getting what it meant to do good or what kind of problems 'the little people' faced. Yes, he was not very subtle about it and still highly unlikeable, but he was certainly changing already.

That's what makes this powerfull: Penny's death reaffirms both of these characters in their actual roles. Their bottom layer is the same as their top-layer, despite everything in between. Captain Hammer is the hero, who now actually feels and will, presumable, after therapy, be the better hero for it. And Dr. Horrible is the actual villain, now. But neither of them are very happy about it (understatement).

Also: *gives it up for Media Temple*. And of course, for all our lovely mods and tech-staff :)

And finally: 120-or-so posts since while I was sleeping. This thread truly is insane. (And thanks for the list, btw, SNT. T'was fun! :))
Yes, a thoroughly Josseque experience... now why does this enjoyable moment have to be spoiled by the season pass not being available on itunes outside the US store??? Does the rest of the world not have the right to marathon viewing sessions at a later date? What's the interweb for if not for global viewing.
Okay, stopping rant now and back to enjoying. Love Felicia.
Yesterday, I was finally able to get my computer to play all three acts. Going into it unspoiled, it really was a bittersweet experience. Liked it, not sure yet if I loved it. Song-wise, I actually liked the third act best (with „Perfect Story“ standing out as the funniest piece „And everyone’s a hero“ as wonderfully ambivalent (see below)).

But now that Dr. Horrible’s emotional impact has sunk in, it’s time for analysis, isn’t it? So, I’ll give it a try: „The Ethics of Dr. Horrbile’s Sing-Along Blog“! (please excuse any bad English. I'm not a native speaker.)

First of all, Dr Horrbile is obviously a story about male sexual adolescence. Secondly, it is about politics and ideology of social change. And thirdly, it’s about some surprising connections between the two.
I think the main trajectory of the story is about Billy directing his energy away from Penny and towards Captain Hammer. His naive romanticism turns into a (in a way even more naive) relation of competition with Hammer. That is Billy’s big failure: Pennys stops being his object of affection (something that could have led to a genuine human connection down the road); instead, she becomes his token of victory over Captain Hammer - which makes her, metaphorically and quite literary, dead to him. This also becomes clear in the song „Perfect Story“ when it is made clear that Billy doesn’t visit the laundromat any more, which is quite literally the home of his and Penny’s relationship.
To me, Dr. Horrible seems to be very much about Billy becoming more like Captain Hammer (notice that for Billy, Dr. Horrible is an alter ego, while Captain Hammer seems to be no one besides Captain Hammer. When Billy truly becomes Dr. Horrible in the end, he becomes more like Hammer in this regard as well). For Hammer, Penny is nothing more than a token the whole time – his token of victory over Dr. Horrbile. In the same way, the homeless people are tokens to him, as it becomes clear in his hero-song, which is quite obviously about they make him look good: „folks, it’s fine to know your place.“ Hammer basically propagates and ideology of complacency here, telling people that it is okay to beg, but that you also have your place in society and should not demand more. To me, Hammer’s song actually feels deeply cynical. However, it might be that Hammer doesn’t know about this cynicism: his ego-mania has a certain innocence to it ...
Hammer’s makes Penny’s campaigning look a tad questionable, because in the larger political picture it becomes assimilated to his ideology of complacency. But what is the alternative? Dr. Horrbile’s revolutionary program remains abstract. When Billy preaches to Penny about symptoms and rotting fish, in the end, he still doesn’t have anything better to offer than signing her petition.
So not only does Penny become the token of victory in the fight between Horrible and Hammer, her social work also becomes a token in the ideological struggle between the two. As we might expect, none of the three is entirely right, and maybe there is no „right“ position on the whole thing. But at its heart, Dr. Horrible’s is maybe less about the question of what is right in a political sense and more about the question what the struggle about what’s right is doing with the individuals fighting and how this struggle is caught up in masculinist fantasies of power. It is quite significant how many phallic symbols appear in Dr Horrible’s. Captain Hammer makes the symbolic dimension of his name quite explicit, and Dr Horrible’s Freeze Gun, as well as his Death Ray, are, of course, also highly phallic. Let’s take a closer look at the Freeze Gun: In the beginning, it is directed at Penny, to give Billy the time to find the right words and thereby allow him to take control of the situation. If this actually is a masculinist fantasy of control, we can say that it is a quite harmless, even benevolent one. As I mentioned above, Penny being the object of Billy’s romantic affection could be seen as the first step in a real human relationship between the two.
In the third act, however, the Freeze Gun is used against Captain Hammer, thereby giving the principle of two men fighting over a women precedence over that of genuine human affection. That’s when we realise that the power fantasy of the Freeze Gun might not be the way after all. To me, it seemed quite clear that Billy would have won Penny over anyway if he just had kept coming to the laundromat with frozen yoghurt instead of wasting his time making plans to outgun Hammer and rule the world ... this is, of course, the fundamental tragedy of Dr. Horrible.
So, what is the whole thing about for me? It’s about treating human individuals as being worthy of affection in themselves and not as tokens of one thing or the other. It is also about the fact that social or political campaigning for a good cause might be fine, but that it doesn’t entitle you to someone else’s affection: Hammer wins Penny over with his great deeds, but the relationship feels shallow. In the same way, it would have felt shallow if Dr. Horrible actually managed to win Penny over by some revolutionary program. The only real human relation here is the one between Billy and Penny in the laundromat.
All in all, I think Dr Horrible’s makes complex and deeply ethical statement. I guess I love it after all.
I was a little depressed last night after seeing act 3 so I threw in an episode of Firefly to cheer me up. I had more than a little bit of culture shock when Nathan first came on screen.
Aaand... we're off the main page (well, apart from the side-bar link, that is). Wonder if this'll mean that this thread will now start trailing off after all this time :)
Not for a while, I don't think. I know I've left this page open in a browser tab for the last 24 hours, just refreshing and refreshing...
Is Kate Danson Ted Danson's daughter? He has a daughter named Katherine who is 29 - so about the age of the actress who played Tie-Dye.
Quote from b!X "For whatever reason, we thought he could be a supervillain and get the girl. Silly us."
Yes oh yes. That is what hits so hard.
As for what Captain Hammer is saying on the couch - I thought he was still whinging about the pain - saying something about being hit in the groin. I guess the word could be grieving...
And one thing struck me that I haven't seen commented on, what do Penny and Billy do that they have to do laundry twice a week? Ok, as Dr Horrible, maybe he regularly has to wash his clothes after his experiments go wrong, but Penny?
Kind of forgot about the artistic qualities of the whole thing.
First: In terms of being a true musical, this really feels much more organic than "Once more with a Feeling". Most of the plot is actually narrated within the songs or visually. Even though the dialogue is fun and witty, the story doesn't depend on it at all. It's quite a feat of storytelling.
Second: Of course everyone in this is great, but after Caleb, Mal Reynolds and now Captain Hammer, I believe that Nathan Fillion can really play everything. He's just as brilliant and underrated as Ron Perlman (even though in a totally different way).
Lioness: maybe they play a sport and don't have enough sporting gear? ;). I know I had to do more laundry when I switched from playing volleyball 2 or 3 times a week to 4 times for a period (not counting 'extra' tournaments or the like). Other than that: no clue :).
Very nice points Jakob Schmidt, and well said. (...in your original long post. This took me tooooo long to type. ;-) )

On another note... give it up for Media Temple, our new host for giving our site wings.
Caroline | July 20, 12:20 CET


Yea, Media Temple! Yea mods!

And one thing struck me that I haven't seen commented on, what do Penny and Billy do that they have to do laundry twice a week? Ok, as Dr Horrible, maybe he regularly has to wash his clothes after his experiments go wrong, but Penny?
Lioness | July 20, 15:00 CET


Hee hee. Maybe she does laundry for the homeless...or a little old housebound person or doesn't have many clothes or just is hoping to meet people or...

I didn't quote you, newcj, that's why there's not quotation marks. I just don't know how we can gauge what Joss wants.

korkster, you did not directly quote me, but you used my phasing with a one word change that totally changed the meaning of what I was saying. I said (emphasis added):

I would so much rather he put that creative energy into telling the stories in new ways that will achieve the emotional impact he wants.

You said (emphasis added):

instead of seeing if he's going to chose a different "hat trick" to achieve an emotional impact that you want.

Not cool.

As far as gauging what Joss wants, that was not something that I even alluded to and has nothing to do with my point.

We'll just agree to disagree on the device. I understand your concern, but IMO he hasn't let us down yet.
korkster | July 20, 09:04 CET


Actually, some people have felt let down at various times, otherwise it would not be a subject that is mentioned so much. As far as agreeing to disagree though, always fine with me.
Not sure if this has been brought up. I didnt exactly read all two billion thousand posts in this thread but...

For a musical its very very light on dancing. The only dancing at all is Billy and Penny in the laundromat in his fantasy... I suppose its an internet musical and not broadway but I would have liked to see some nice dance numbers! (They got the mustard out!)
Tell you one thing, I like the idea of John Barrowman playing Captain Hammer if Dr. Horrible goes to Broadway. Some one came up with that concept elsewhere and I thought it was a really good idea.
There were no dance numbers in "Sweeney Todd" or "Into the Woods." Some musicals are just like that.
Yeah, I think Barrowman could do a good Captain Hammer as well, Simon, although I've never heard him sing (which - I guess - shame on me?). On the other hand: Nathan Fillion on broadway would also be fun, if maybe only for a limited run.

aus-mitch, I think I may actually prefer it without dancing. I liked it here, in Billy's daydream, used sparingly, but it takes me out of the story, most of the time. Then again, I used to say the same thing about the singing in musicals, so maybe I'm wrong there too :)

C. A. Bridges: while I too think this thread won't die down just yet, it does feel like it's slowing to a halt. It's certainly been less busy for the past hour-or-so than before that.

and on an unrelated note, I've finally finished my article + review of Dr. Horrible for the Dutch website I write for. Yay me ;) Now I just have to wait 'till it turns up
Kudos to Media Temple, a temple of...medianess, worthy of worship!

UBERkudos to the mods! All hail! :-D

Oh, and a hearty *pffft* to the notion that Captain Hammer is mourning ANYTHING but his previous lack of physical pain and pseudo-superheroics. I believe that, to paraphrase, "a man's gotta hear what a man's gotta hear" if you're hearing Hammer say diddly about Penny in his therapy session. Puh-lease!
OzLady: have you re-listened? I still hear him distincly saying things along the lines that Saje quoted above.
That's how it sounds to me BUT with the caveat, thinking about it, that it's so indistinct that it might not be scripted i.e. the script might just say e.g. "Captain Hammer blubbers" and Nathan himself put the words in there so I guess it's debatable how much we should read into it.

Might have to wait until the DVD - if it comes with subtitles that'll settle it one way or another.

(or some kind soul could ask Joss at Comic-con)
Tell you one thing, I like the idea of John Barrowman playing Captain Hammer if Dr. Horrible goes to Broadway. Some one came up with that concept elsewhere and I thought it was a really good idea.
Simon | July 20, 16:17 CET


Absolutely. John Barrowman would be wonderful for it.

Yeah, I think Barrowman could do a good Captain Hammer as well, Simon, although I've never heard him sing (which - I guess - shame on me?).

Easy enough to fix. Clips of him singing are all over youtube. For instance:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8knQNzKj5U

As far as dancing, although musicals don't have to have dancing, and I would not be inclined to change what has already been done, I could totally see opportunities for dances if it were to be expanded for Broadway...and I'm all for expanding it for whatever reason. ;-)

[ edited by newcj on 2008-07-20 17:10 ]
Well, I think Hammer is talking about Penny. I just don't believe him (i.e., I agree with OzLady anyway.) I think he's blubbering about his loss of Penny-the-trophy and his complete shock at losing--like a spoiled child whose Playstation was taken away.
Of course, I hate the guy, so maybe it's a case of "a woman's gotta hear what a woman's gotta hear." :)
And NF is brilliant--don't know how he keeps that supercilious Hammer face on all the time, when he usually looks so nice.
Thanks for the link newcj. His singing voice seems clearer than Nathan's. I now completely suscribe to the idea that he'd be a great broadway Hammer :).

Saje, yeah I was thinking the same thing. But then again: if it didn't fit his character, might Joss & co not have asked him to do it again? I mean: it's not so indistinct as to not be hear-able at all. I heard the bit referring to Penny at first listen and drew my conclusions based on that.

And while I, too, think the guy is a tool and completely hated him in Act II and for parts of Act III (the implication that he'd get to do dirtier things with Penny made me want to step into my screen and hook him), jcs, I also think he's redeemable. There's a lot of (cheesy) guys with big ego's and a lack of consideration for other people's feelings out there in the world. I tend to completely dislike them in real life, but that doesn't mean they're incapable of feeling actual emotions and grieving a loss. But yes: it is a grey area and not overtly clear which interpretation is valid, I agree. I just think I saw some growth in Act III. Not enough to make me like the guy, but growth nontheless.
Yeah I agree on pretty much all counts GVH but just as jcs wonders if she's seeing what she wants to see, so do I. I.e. there's a need to see some good come of an otherwise incredibly bleak ending and hey, presto, we think Captain Hammer might have turned some kind of (minor) corner on the (long) road to becoming (marginally) less of a complete prick. But still, that is the way I see it.

And it definitely starts rounding him out so maybe "pain completes us" is the idea ? Part of the joke of it for me was that the super-villain was the well-rounded, real character and the hero was the one that was very one dimensional, seemingly with no inner life and the end of the last act kind of turned that on its head to some extent.

(though of course, just the idea of "the message" could be inappropriate for this story and indicative of people's need to always see some sort of order when maybe there's just empty desolation and death. Can you tell tomorrow's Monday ? ;)
I am a bit late to the party - but had to post and say how much I ADORED this musical. Like most others I expected a light frothy fun musical...which is what we got for the most part...until Dr Horrible came to assassinate Hammer. Then it took a turn for the unexpected - and raised it far above a 'fun experiment'...it was heartbreaking. I was shocked and gobsmacked by what happened. I can honestly say I did not expect it- and I know I know...the Whedon deathmachine strikes again...but I really didnt expect it in this. I thought that Penny would stop Hammer from killing Billy...and that there would be a song of reconciliation between Billy and Penny...and that Hammer would be all bummed at having lost Penny but then go off with the groupies. La La La La La....

Not so much.

I cant believe my heart was broken from a 45 minute web musical.


Amazing.

I WANT MORE!!!!!
Can you tell tomorrow's Monday?

You just had to go depress us, didn't you, Saje?
At the risk of making this thread even longer, favourite song?

I can't decide between 'Brand New Day', 'laundry day', 'On the rise' (or 'Everything you wanted' or 'So They Say' or 'A Mans Gotta Do'....Ok, I love them all).
You just had to go depress us, didn't you, Saje?

Well, y'know me Lioness, "share the wealth" could be my middle name. But it's Allan ;).
streetartist: "A lot of people suggested that the ending was very typical of Joss' work, but what it was missing was the underlying message of hope, which ahs generally come after. That's not a critique, just a thought."

Saje: "... (though of course, just the idea of 'the message' could be inappropriate for this story and indicative of people's need to always see some sort of order when maybe there's just empty desolation and death."

You know, I think maybe that was it: there was almost no indication of hope at the end of this - no uplift - just pain and destruction and waste.

While this was not, of course, a new experience for me in fiction or in life, it really got in this time.
Trying to listen to it again. Really need script or captioning.

Maybe Captain Hammer on the couch says
"....."
"it hit my heart"
"and it hurts to die"

[ edited by Anonymous1 on 2008-07-20 19:20 ]
Okay, who here also is wondering how long it will take for someone to write a Dr.H. fic? (maybe using the freeze ray idea to save Penny ;)

Not that it means it won't happen (or have already happened and I missed it because gorram work/RL won't let me anywhere near my LJ).

*pauses* Excuse me *googles ff* heh... oh *eyes go wide*

Oh. Well. Never mind. *shuffles out*


ETA Anonymous1, I think he said something like "here... in my eye" between his heroic weeping about how it hurts.

[ edited by Mirage on 2008-07-20 19:21 ]
You found the Bad Horse/Giles' horse crossover fan fic I take it?
Simon, you had better be kidding! *stops finger from moving the cursor to google*

And, excuse me, for fiction might've rotted my brain not much but enough to the extent that my gray cells chose to ignore the "' horse" and merely saw Giles. That was one second of my life that truly defined Horrible!
I think maybe Simon is going to post things that make us stop posting in this thread. ;)
I disagree that there was no hope at the end of Horrible.

Billy's obvious despair in the last two words of the production leave hope for his redemption. As does the Captain's emotional breakdown (on the couch, not at the shelter), because to have an emotional breakdown at least implies real emotion, and his willingness to seek therapy tells us that he's realized there are some foes he cannot conquer on his own, even if they're only his own demons...

Anyhow. My tuppence.

[ edited by QingTing on 2008-07-20 20:18 ]
Can you tell tomorrow's Monday?

You just had to go depress us, didn't you, Saje?


But some of us are on holidays tomorrow (and since I went into the office yesterday, I'm not allowed to go in tomorrow morning for the committee meeting!)

cabridges, I've had this browser window open for two days now. I believe it was at 400+ comments when I opened it as an addition to my regularly-opened Whedonesque window. ;)

Yay to Media Temple and the mods and techs here for making the change so quickly. (Unfortunately, I can't seem to update on Twitter at the moment - messages are just evaporating!)
Oh, there's some little flickers, QingTing, for sure... but it's not exactly "let's keep fighting the good fight" or "love keeps her in the air" either.

By the way, I'm not saying it "should" be like that - just that it isn't.

(And I hafta add my thanks for the way WHEDONesque is operating like a well-oiled blog - and smooth like buttah. Mercis.)
I love how Dr. Horrible had turned my brother into a believer. On one of the sites he frequents (comics/games…etc) someone (the webmaster?) posted something about lacking brains if you hadn't known of/watched Dr. Horrible (of course, my brother watched Act I&II beforehand thanks to yours truly). When I confronted him of him actually liking it, he said and I quote: "Well, I never said Joss Whedon isn't good at what he does." Picture my mystified face. While it is true that he’d never said those words, but disdain and decisiveness to my obsess—uh, admiration for my beloved Whedon-circulate projects was near always present.

God bless those who brought us Dr.H. because albeit with his arm around his back, my brother is somewhat in my camp. Now if only he will finish watching Firefly! Or at least join me in one of my legendary camp-marathon Buffy/Angel timeline viewings. ;)
Thanks for the advice, It hadn't occurred to me to write down the things I wanted to say.Which is funny cause it's what I usually do when I'm reading ljsecrets.

re:laundry. well,maybe they haven't got many clothes? If I do laundry once a week I end up using the kind of clothes one only uses when there's nothing else to wear

I did notice that Captain Hammer doesn't have an alter ego. Lois started dating clark Kent, not superman. Penny liked Billy, she didn't know about Dr Horrible, but she dates CH.
He is with the psychiatrist as CH, which leads me to wonder if he even has an alter ego.

Billy becomes DH at the end, but there's still a piece of him, as we see in his blog.

I second the idea of Barrowman as Hammer. he can play cheesy well. And I can see David Tennant as Horrible,BTW.Mostly cause I'd like to see him in Mad scientist garb.and he and NPH are the two actors I know who can do a billion different expressions

about what Hammer is saying, all I can hear is whining. He's never had any confrontation before, he rose to power too easily and doesn't know how to handle it. like jcs said, a spoiled brat who had his toy taken away. I don't believe he had any real feelings for Penny.Maybe, with time, he could've, but there was no time.

Oh,Mirage,don't be naive. there was a fic comm on lj before Act I was even up. I know I'm already planning a fic or two.

I must add my name to the I-ve-had-this-thread-opened-for-over-a-day and I am incredibly thankful to all the hard-working mods for that.

BTW, why is this thread classified as 'gonads and strife'? I've seen that in some threads before,bu I've no clue what it means

[ edited by okelay on 2008-07-20 21:24 ]
I'm glad there are so many positive comments about this project, because after reading through some, not all of the topics, I've seen a lot of negativity. And I feel badly Joss will read some of those comments, even though that's inevitable with every single project he's done. Not everyone is satisfied. I analyze art because it's fun and necessary for me to look at it that way, up to a point. But to see over and over, things like "totally predictable," along with harsher thoughts without any analysis of the plot to explore what Joss might have been trying to achieve that makes the person feel that way, makes me wonder why these people continue to watch his work - is it only for the opportunity to express the negative?

Do I think Joss is perfect? No. But I thought we all came here because we honor his work. And this 45-minute project was able to affect people the world over on a profound level and managed to surprise even veteran Whedon-show watchers like me, and Simon, and SNT, and QG, and many others. It is a huge achievement. You may wonder why I'm saying this now. I guess I'm just full up. I was a contestant in the What Buffy Means To Me contest last year - his work, even as an older adult, had a profound effect on me; how he looks at the world, human trials, tribulations and emotions.

I've decided that from now on, I'm just going to think the reverse of this famous dialogue from Julius Caesar when I see those blanket statements about him, and scroll, scroll, scroll past as best I can:

I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him.

[ edited by Tonya J on 2008-07-20 21:28 ]
I kinda get that Tonya J but to me reasonable dissenting voices and the tolerance displayed towards them are part of what makes this a special place. Hopefully Joss will see the overwhelmingly positive comments and take the right message away from it but ultimately, much as I love it when he stops by, and much as i'm happy to sing his praises, the forum isn't for Joss, it's for his fans and the ones that're disappointed deserve their voice the same as the rest of us. Just my tuppence ;).

Oh, there's some little flickers, QingTing, for sure... but it's not exactly "let's keep fighting the good fight" or "love keeps her in the air" either.

Yep QuoterGal, and what flickers there are are possibly only implied by we the viewers I think. Think of it this way QingTing, Horrible's despair is a sign of hope but why ? Because we assume despair inspires people to change yes ? But what if a) they don't have the tools to change and b) they don't feel they deserve to change ? What if they're absolutely convinced that they should lie in this filthy, soiled bed they've made forever ? See, it's not true that when you hit rock bottom the only way is up, that's just a story we tell ourselves - sometimes you stay on the bottom.

Re: Hammer, he is whining but I don't think he's only whining about himself and that alone is a sea change. But also (and I can't believe i'm defending the king of schmuck ;) try to imagine what it would be like to suffer pain for the first time ever - I think it'd rock you to your very core. It might, dare we hope, be a bit of a wake-up call.

But some of us are on holidays tomorrow ...

'K, that's not helping with the post weekend blues ;).

ETA: Actually, that should be "inferred", ah well ;).

[ edited by Saje on 2008-07-20 22:48 ]
Is Kate Danson Ted Danson's daughter? He has a daughter named Katherine who is 29 - so about the age of the actress who played Tie-Dye.

Hmm...I seem to recall Ted Danson/Mary Steenburgen having a connection to someone in the Whedonverse. I want to say Alexis? So maybe?

Who do you think did the temp vocals for Captain Hammer? Seems that Maurissa did Penny's and Jed did Dr. Horrible's. So Joss or Zack? I wonder if those will be on the soundtrack as well.
You know, with all this talk of Broadway further up thread, I'm now thinking about how I can afford a trip to America. I've never been there before, but I would be completely prepared to spend an inappropriate amount of money (and end up penniless [and, oh-God, Penny-less! *sniff* but the pun had to be used] for the rest of the year) to get there near the start of its run, should it ever become a Broadway show.
I just watched the whole thing yesterday, from act I to act III, all in one sitting. I needed to take some time to gather my thoughts, because it affected me so. Which means this is comment #942 or some-such, heh.

I don't think anything has made me feel so moved in a long time. A day later, and I still can't get it out of my head. I think this will be with me for a very long time.

Y'know, I thought we were in for a light-hearted romp, with a tweaking of super heroes being the most serious aspect of the whole thing. I'm glad I was wrong. Doctor Horrible has gone beyond anything I had hoped for.

Thank you, Team Horrible.
Saje:
they don't feel they deserve to change ? What if they're absolutely convinced that they should lie in this filthy, soiled bed they've made forever ?


This is so so true. For many people, that's what depression can do to you. And from that last look in his eyes... damn.
Loved it, of course. But couldn't bring myself to watch ep3 until I was almost out of time because 1 & 2 had performed the usual alchemy of picking me up when I'm almost too depressed to go on. I know this sounds stupid, but Joss shows have shown me a light through a lot of hard times and I was terrified of what I couldn't quite believe would happen (but had a feeling would).

And, being a shy type who works for a homelessness charity, I may have been over-identifying a bit... So, thanks for reminding me of the joy, Joss & Co, but try not to mess with it so quickly next time, please. Especially when you've got a set-up of 3 characters who all think the world's in a bit of a mess and have different ways of dealing with it - feels a bit like my way of dealing has been trashed. Sorry for such a negative post but am feeling all up-and-down.
869 and still going. I was expecting comedy
(and I'll quote Sondheim:

Something familiar, something peculiar,
Something for everyone. A comedy tonight!
Something appealing, something appalling
Something for everyone. A comedy tonight!

Nothing with kings, nothing with crowns;
Bring on the lovers, liars and clowns
Old situations, new complications
Nothing portentous or polite:
Tragedy tomorrow, comedy tonight!

...

No royal curse, no Trojan horse,
And a happy ending, of course!
Goodness and badness, panic is madness --
This time it all turns out all right!
Tragedy tomorrow, comedy tonight!
)

and got classic tragedy.

I was stunned and angry at Penny's death the first time I saw it, on Friday, having spent two days imaging comedic resolutions. Now that I've watched it again in a piece, rather than separated, it's still a pain, but there's no anger.

Thank you, writers and directors, cast and crew; very well done.
Sorry, having watched the glorious opening number of ep2 again, I still think there's a strange 'ordinary people who try to help others will get conned and deaded' message that I don't think sits well in the 'verse.

Other characters have died, sure, but they all had a chance to give something to the world first. Penny was barely starting.

ETA to apologise for daft levels of taking the whole Penny thing personally. Was having a very strange night, I'll attempt to make a more sensible contribution to the debate next time. Or possibly a much sillier one... but silly-silly, not vortex-of-self-pity silly.

[ edited by BizarroGirl on 2008-07-24 18:17 ]
She got a homeless shelter opened! (It was Hammer's signature, but he never would've done it without her.)
It's the What's-Her-Name Shelter for the Homeless, the ribbon-cutting's next week.
I know this sounds stupid, but Joss shows have shown me a light through a lot of hard times
BizarroGirl | July 21, 00:17 CET


I don't think that is stupid at all, thats the beauty of his work you can totally immerse yourself in another world. I have thrown myself into one of the 'verses any time I was depressed and needed an escape...in fact Dr. Horrible is what is getting me through a rough relationship patch at the moment...thanks again for all you do Joss!
While reading some of the reviews posted on iTunes, I came across the following, submited by someone called Brec:
The writing and characters possess that campy, subtle, comedic, whedonic (did I just create a word?) aspect that is do hard to describe and yet makes me laugh every time I see it.

I love this word - whedonic!
Man I just re-watched Act 3....still heartbreaking.Will have to watch all 3 together tomorrow.
Saje: (and I can't believe i'm defending the king of schmuck ;)

Yeah, I can't believe it either. I don't think he grew into roses or such, but I did think it was strange that he thanked Penny and "shared" power with "lesser-folk". And, Jakob Schmidt said (quite eloquently, BTW), these heroes are struggling over power... why would CH share that power (which he announces, empowering them) while DH takes that power away and holds it to himself. From this point, it seems as CH grew a little while DH did not.

All in all, I think Dr Horrible’s makes complex and deeply ethical statement. I guess I love it after all.

Jakob Schmidt | July 20, 14:14 CET


I really liked your analysis, Jakob. I feel like we're dissecting Macbeth or something. I don't know how I feel about DH & CH fighting over Penny's affections in the 3rd Act. Dr. Horrible is glad that she is not there (even though she is) for his assention; his plans have diverged from their original path and Penny is no longer needed on this route (hence her death). And Billy, himself, is no longer needed. His ego (Billy) is submerged while his alter-ego (Dr. H) is the one he shows the public. But, things didn't turn out as expected (hence the longing on the vlog as Billy). "The Nightmare is Here" & "Dr. Horrible is Here" when he puts on the goggles and red lab coat, I was wondering today if Dr. Horrible is Billy's nightmare. You know, with Lady Macbeth (sort of kind of). The task is complete, with unexpected results, and now Billy "dies" as Dr. Horrible lives on.

However, Billy hasn't actually died (he is part of Dr. Horrible) unlike Lady Macbeth. But he certainly isn't in control anymore. I don't know, but I think there may be valid points. Perhaps someone who is still fresh with Shakespeare can take a whack at it.

(can't believe you're actually keeping count ;)

Saje | July 20, 09:44 CET


Believe me, Saje, it wasn't intentional. I just got the feeling last night that I was being long-winded. So I checked. And I was. Nothing to write home about, I guess. :)
My impression was that Dr. Horrible was glad Penny wasn't around because he didn't want her to see Hammer get splattered ... more importantly, that he didn't want her to see him doing it.
Hmmmm. Whedonic, or.... Whedironic?
Saje, you're overly depressing today. Give us some jokes, man! :p. Also: good luck on the start of a new work week tomorrow ;)

I still think there's a strange 'ordinary people who try to help others will get conned and deaded' message that I don't think sits well in the 'verse.


I can see why you would say that, because the character who most represented that - Penny - died. But then you're going past the point that it wasn't that particular characteristic that got her killed. It was Billy's obsession with her, that put her in the place she was in and yes, maybe her affection for CH as well. But it was very little to do with her outlook on life or her goals.

In fact, if anything, the narrative showed that her way of changing things was successfull: she had her homeless shelter built, got to help more people and even changed one of the biggest tools out there a tiny bit, because her friendliness and selflessness was so infectuous. Whereas DH's way of changing things - selfishly, trying to get what he wanted and trying to become powerfull and important - was portrayed as 'wrong', because he got 'punished' by losing everything he loved. In fact, his 'essence'/'soul'/'inner goodness' died because of it. If only Billy had been more like Penny, nothing would've gone wrong. So I'd say that the message here is actually contrary to what you're taking away from it, BizarroGirl.
Saje said
Think of it this way QingTing, Horrible's despair is a sign of hope but why ? Because we assume despair inspires people to change yes ? But what if a) they don't have the tools to change and b) they don't feel they deserve to change ?

In the European, Christian, Middle Ages, Despair was one of the 7 deadly sins. It was assumed that indeed it would lead people to believe that they were not worth saving and so they would become sinners- or worse sinners.
I don't see despair changing Dr. Horrible for the better.
In the European, Christian, Middle Ages, Despair was one of the 7 deadly sins.


Nowadays, Despair is one of the seven Endless ;).
Less than two hours left for free airings of Dr. Horrible.

Got anybody left to tell?
You know, in French class today, I was assigned the task (as homework) to talk about what I am obsessed with. Can you imagine the look on my face? I'm thinking about 2 papers: one with Joss Whedon obsession, and the other one focusing on Dr. Horrible itself (since it dominated my whole life week. I'm thinking of titling it "My Affair with Dr. Horrible". But, you know, in French.

No Macbeth lovers here? Oh, I was hoping for more depth-diving and parallelisms. :(
Well, it may be up a mite bit longer than expected via twitter.

drhorrible: Freebie time almost up! But we may lag a little on taking it away...'cause we can. And 'cause we love you.


So, a maybe yay!
Oh, you delightful crack dealers, you ;). Big love to all involved.
Can they break 900? Not far now (888th!). Should I give myself a talking to for posting back to back comments just to snag the big triple-8? Eventually I'd get mouthy and have to ban me... Tell anyone you haven't told - only a few more horrible hours...
Well, just posting for the sake of reaching some arbitrary goal is a bit cheatingy, don't ya think?

what's that, 889? ;-)
Yeah, I was totally joking, let's not do anything artificially to reach an arbitrary number. This has been a thread for the books in many ways. Happy to see so much discussion heading in so many directions; deconstructing and (over)analyzing, that's what we do here!
So I did a complete rewatch of all three acts in a row. Now, it's still all very tragic, but I don't feel like I was kicked in the nads like I did Friday night. I only feel like I got hit with a steel chair. It still hurts, but no real side affects besides a funny concussion.
Aw, come on, mods! We can definitely reach 1000! Play the game with me... doesn't Penny represent (in some way) Lady Macbeth?

Or am I just insane?

Alright, maybe don't answer that second question. But I would like to know the first. It's been bugging me all day.

crazygolfa, thanks for reminding me of my new-found Twitter addiction. I actually got mad at myself for not checking immediately when I signed on. Of course, Whedonesque is usually my first and final stop. (Now have to have 3 pages open just to keep up with everything. My poor fingers!)
So... Bait and Switch. Fraternal twins of the opposite sex? Moist thought he'd be with the woman Bait and ended up with the man Switch?
Pondering on the traditional nature of the works of the artist, I was gonna say that artists follow their own muses, and give us works based on the themes that obsess them - or that obsess the people who are paying for their work. And then I remembered that Joss paid the tab to make his own work in this case, and so that really means that he "owes" us absolutely nothing as an artist. He made something according to his own unique vision, and presented it to us. And no matter what we have to say about it, it's a fate accompli. All of our comments are irrelevant, and an afterthought, including this one. Whatever we think, he didn't owe us a happy Hollywood ending, and thank the ghods he didn't give us one! Despite the pain "we can't suffer quietly," I would rather have a gut-punching, heart-ripping Whedon-work than any other thing on this earth, any day. Thanks so much, Whedon/Tancharoen team. You have made a small, burning, perfect jewel that will live in my heart forever (much like Firefly). All I can do is adore it. And be thankful that the 3-year drought of Whedonlessness has ended! Huzzah!
Behind the groupies at the intersection, there's a no right on red sign. A car turns right on red. Just thought that was amusing.
The most oft-asked question wherever I go (admittedly not many other forums) is: "When is the DVD coming out?" Impatient citizens of the world. We want it good, not fast.
petranef, while I agree that this work should be adored and Joss owes us nothing, it is common upon popular literature to dissect and find meanings that the author may/may not have intended. Usually this sort of analysis occurs after the artist has died, but in our internet-happy society, that is no longer the norm. I see no harm in discovering afterthoughts, or I would have missed out on much, like Bait & Switch.

Or the car turning right on a no right red sign. Thanks, hacksaway. ;)
Z & SNT, for the sake of Dr. Horrible posts/analysis, would it be fair to count the 101 comments about the feminism tones in the other thread? Then we'd be at 998. :)

ETA: Not intentional, I swear, SNT. I thought each of my posts spoke of a different aspect. Well, most. ;)

But you make a good point.


Does this help?

[ edited by korkster on 2008-07-21 05:15 ]

[ edited by korkster on 2008-07-21 05:16 ]
We could, korkster, but we might then have to discount the consecutive posts by some members that could be combined into one post . . . I'm just sayin'. ;-)
"drhorrible: Freebie time almost up! But we may lag a little on taking it away...'cause we can. And 'cause we love you."

Awww. And here I was hurrying up for one more go at it and hoping to get in just under the wire. :D

(And then I'm buying it on DVD for everyone I've ever met.)
napua | July 19, 17:49 CET
The Captain comic showes one kid (who I assumed to be Hammer) reporting the science kid (who I assumed to be Billy) to the authorities. But on second read, I realize those probably are the kids in the classroom he is addressing.


I noticed that the kid turning in or getting arrested has the same color eyes as Hammer in the comics. Can't tell what color eyes Dr. Horrible has in the comic. Anybody know what color eyes Neil Patrick Harris has? The science kid has green eyes.

In the comic, Captain Hammer says "I was born into this world with a full head of hair and the ability to bench press 500 pounds." The was is the only word bolded in the comic.

What if that was really true. If Captain Hammer just appeared one day. I know some babies are born with a full head of hair but we really don't know anything about his origin. Never felt pain before. Did he have a mother at all.

Look at this odd statement from Act III "Oh mama, someone maternal".

I was also surprised the word Cardiologist didn't appear in the 3 episodes. Cardiologist seemed awful important to Captain Hammer.

And Captain Hammer said to Dr. Horrible in Act II "I get what you want." Did Dr. Horrible want to be a super-hero and somehow Captain Hammer was the result.
You know, I like the whole high school metaphor for Dr. Horrible on a much higher scale. Coming for Dr. Horrible's perspective, the Evil League of Evil, is the popular clique that the geek wants to get into. However, he has to give up everything he has to join this clique.

In high school, it is abandoning his friends. It works the same here. He starts to disregard his blossoming friendship with Penny with his desire to become part of the cool new crowd. He also starts to disregard his friendship with Moist as well. He spends all his time trying to impress the ELE so that he join something them, as a result he loses what makes him who he is.

In the very first scene, he is Billy pretending to be Dr. Horrible. He's still that geeky teenager that is yearning to be apart of the cool kids clique. As we continue to follow Billy's journey, he starts to lose himself in the act. By the end, he can only show the act to everyone because that's what they expect from him.

That's why the final frame of the final act was so poignant, it is where we see that the only time he can be Billy is when he is all alone. Now, in private, I think he wants to be Billy again, because when he was Billy he was happier than he is now. At least, then he had a connection with people, as others have eloquently said, but now, he doesn't have that, and he's miserable.
Yes, korkster, I agree that commentary/dissection is much more immediate in this age than it was in the age of the old masters, but it just seemed to me that so many people seemed to be commenting on the ending as though the Whedon Team owed us something else than what they gave us. I love the dissection and commentary as much as the next Whedonite(?) but I don't want them to think we didn't appreciate their work. :) Perhaps I cannot speak for a lot of people on this board, but whatever the outcome, I was just so happy to have something Whedonesque to watch! Not that that disables my critical-analysis abilities (those degrees have to be good for something), but still, three years! Damn! Yeah, the ending killed me, but I still love the work. And I WANT MORE! NOW! ;)
crazygolfa, agreed. Do you think he loses "Billy" with the "arise & see" part of the last song? I love how the first words after Penny's death are "Dr. Horrible, why did you kill her?". It's as if Billy wasn't the cause of this, but Dr. Horrible. Which, to me, makes sense. It's the pursuit of Dr. Horrible and the ELOE clique that causes this demise.

And, I have to re-iterate, that "now the nightmare's real; now Dr. Horrible is here" (in red garb and goggles) pushes the point of Billy's dreams are turned into a nightmare.

Question on goggles, on and off his eyes. Just want thoughts on this, I know it's been touched before... By actually wearing the goggles (covering his eyes), is it to hide his true (Billy) self from the public and give them what they want/expect (Dr. Horrible), or is he covering his eyes so he doesn't have to see what he's become reflected in their eyes?
Probably both.
My question is, when do we get a origin story about Moist? How did he he become Moist? Was he involved with some industrial-type accident?

My opinion is, one day in middle school, it was a rainy day and his parents were supposed to pick him up. Only, they never came. Unfortunately, no one at the school noticed him, so he was left standing outside in a torrential rain. Thus, the rain became part of him, so as a result, he always looks like he came inside from walking in the rain, even though it could be 100 degrees and sunny outside.

[ edited by crazygolfa on 2008-07-21 05:52 ]
I get ya, petranef. My family thinks I'm so "hard up" for new Whedon-works. But, it has been a long time, and this is definitely something special, so I don't mind their remarks. Loved it, in the fact that it gave me what I expected (something to float in the layers of, something to love), and gave me the opportunity to experience Whedon in a whole new way.
Hee! I have gotten so many strange looks this week, when I ask people if they've seen Dr. Horrible's Song-Along Blog. ;) And then I just have to say - Joss Whedon. That usually makes them willing to give it a try. But I have to say I love Whedonesque, because you guys "get it." And I can live my obsession here, along with all of you, thank the PTBs. :)
BTW, I can't believe it took me multiple viewings to get the "he still votes nay/neigh" ... seeing he's a horse saying it. (Sad, yes I know.)
*shakes head at NYP*

That's alright. I kind of appreciate CH's spelling-out of things, like "the hammer is my penis". This way I don't have to wonder if I missed something.
If Captain Hammer gets what Dr. Horrible wants, shouldn't he get in the Evil League of Evil eventually.
I think CH does get what Dr. H wanted... CH is the tool for the current system, and, once CH is taken out, Dr. H is now the new tool for a different system.
I'm thanking the Dr. Horrible team for leaving it up a bit longer, too, so I could watch it once more all the way through - and then the second act again and again. As I was rewatching, one of my friends phoned me because he'd just finished the third act for the first time and was totally blown away by the ending.

Speaking of spreading the word (as someone was up-thread), I was on a very crowded bus Friday night - standing up - and ran into an acquaintance who is a Whedon fan. I mentioned Dr. Horrible to her and she hadn't heard of it, so I spent the whole trip raving about it and several times said the website address (quite loudly)! ;)

One thing nobody else has mentioned - at least not in this thread because I've read every single post here - is something that struck me the second time I watched Act I and every time since: Dr. Horrible (evil) is dressed in white with white (or partially gray) gloves, whereas Dr. Hammer (hero) is dressed in black with black gloves. I kept thinking of 'black hats' and 'white hats' from old cowboy movies, so it was even more significant to me at the end when Dr. Horrible dons black gloves - and red coat, possibly to show his loss of innocence and/or drawing his first blood.

I love all the songs and they take turns sticking in my head, but I think my favourite is probably "On the Rise", especially the duet at the end which sends shivers up my back.
I love all the songs and they take turns sticking in my head, but I think my favourite is probably "On the Rise", especially the duet at the end which sends shivers up my back.

I have that song in my head at this very moment. And I was thinking about the color change of Dr H's costume from white to red, but never thought about Dr H being in white while Captain Hammer is in black. Mabye that's because I wear black pretty much all the time.

I too appreciate that they are keeping it up for a bit. Stoppage time, perhaps?
One thing nobody else has mentioned - at least not in this thread because I've read every single post here - is something that struck me the second time I watched Act I and every time since: Dr. Horrible (evil) is dressed in white with white (or partially gray) gloves, whereas Dr. Hammer (hero) is dressed in black with black gloves. I kept thinking of 'black hats' and 'white hats' from old cowboy movies, so it was even more significant to me at the end when Dr. Horrible dons black gloves - and red coat, possibly to show his loss of innocence and/or drawing his first blood.

samatwitch | July 21, 06:22 CET


I believe the white vs. black colors were discussed on the Act 1 thread, but it is important to bring it up again. You pretty much hit the nail on the head.

Not only is there a loss of innocence, but there is also a loss of balance. No more white vs. black... only black (DH) on black (CH). Unbalanced power reminds me of Glory being crazy without Ben to keep her in check. Who's going to keep the ELOE in check?
I wanted to quickly give props to the mementos groupie. Hair, dry-cleaning bill... something to idolize. :) And she kind of creeps me out with her enthusiasm. Reflection on me? Perhaps, but I don't own someone else's hair (yet). I do have someone's wisdom teeth... Any, Kudos creepy groupie. :)
samatwitch-

I can't believe I didn't notice the black/white symbolism before.
Good catch.
BizarroGirl, a lot of us have had similar experiences. Keep your chin up. At least Penny was loved...

korkster, since no one else will brave your Macbeth questions, I'll take a stab. I don't see the parallel between Penny and Lady Macbeth. Lady Macbeth willingly enters into her husband's evil plans, pushes them forward when he falters, and then Kills herself when she consumed with guilt over it. Penny works toward building a home for the homeless and a life for herself. She is killed accidentally when she stops protecting herself upon recognizing a man she cares about.

I thought Hamlet might have some better fits, but it is still tenuous at best. :-)
Wow, really? Well, in that case, let's talk about the lighting. When Dr. Horrible is addressing the vlog, during DAYLIGHT (note Serenity-pot window), he has confidence about the course of action that he's taking... even slightly successful. I would argue that this is even true with the successful point in Act 2, because he was successful with getting the Wonderflonium, which is Dr. Horrible's goal. (Penny, not so much, but she's not DH's goal. Well, not really... or not in the way he's going about it.)

When he's defeated, it's DARK outside. Note in Act 2 when he's beaten up, it's dark outside... giving his room more of a yellow-ish light. This is the same when Dr. Horrible takes over. His last vlog entry, as Billy, it's DARK outside.

I would argue that the lighting on this (DAYLIGHT vs. DARK) demonstrates the temporary defeat of Dr. Horrible (Act 2) and the definite defeat of Billy (Act 3). Check it out.
Thanks, newcj. Like I said, I was rusty.

korkster, since no one else will brave your Macbeth questions, I'll take a stab. I don't see the parallel between Penny and Lady Macbeth. Lady Macbeth willingly enters into her husband's evil plans, pushes them forward when he falters, and then Kills herself when she consumed with guilt over it. Penny works toward building a home for the homeless and a life for herself. She is killed accidentally when she stops protecting herself upon recognizing a man she cares about.

I thought Hamlet might have some better fits, but it is still tenuous at best. :-)

newcj | July 21, 06:48 CET


Then, could it be looked at this way- Billy is Lady Macbeth and Dr. Horrible is Macbeth?

Billy willing entertains & applies to ELOE, even fixes up Stun Ray to Death Ray. He gets the acceptance Dr. Horrible needs for the ELOE, and consumed by guilt over Penny (Duncan?), dies a little.

What do you think? Better?
I really have to say I love Captain Hammer's song in Act III. It's tremendously awesome. Nathan is preforming these song with GUSTO. You could tell he's having fun.
theonetruebix asked:
Who is the weird sunglasses chick next to the Hammer Groupies in the audience at the unveiling?


I noticed her during my first viewing. After re-watching Act III several times, I'm pretty sure it's SMG in a wig. I was way more surprised by the possibility that SMG would make an uncredited appearance than I was by the ending.
...is Penny wearing a sweater vest at the beginning?
Want to further comment on the day vs. night. Billy is feeling hopeless (? defeated) on the view of society when he's trekking through the night and sees Penny (first verse). On the second verse, it's daylight, BUT his verse includes the descending into evil (which is part of his plan, therefore... successful). The third verse (split-screen) he's seems desolate and it's DARK again.

On the "Brand New Day", Billy decides to kill CH, which is determination and confidence that they'll rule Australia. The "sun is high, birds are chirping... angels are singing"... everything is light (and DAYLIGHT) to further express his commitment and action to take down CH.

In Act 3, there are no outside scenes, but the light in the auditorium changes. When Billy shows up with his Freeze Ray & Death Ray it's a cold light blue hue in the room (kind of like his vlog successful colors). However, when the Freeze Ray fails, the color changes to the yellow hue of defeat and devastation. It stays yellowish through Penny's death.

The outside scenes are back in DAYLIGHT with Dr. Horrible being victorious as the Worst Evil ever, everyone fearing him.

Cut to after party, Billy dressing into Dr. Horrible's red & black outfit. It's DARK outside and the yellow hue is back. This is where he declares that the "nightmare is real" and that "Dr. Horrible is here".

And, of course, the final shot we see Billy in the yellow-defeated-hue confessing his demise and not feeling a thing.

That was cool. What do you think?
Then, could it be looked at this way- Billy is Lady Macbeth and Dr. Horrible is Macbeth?

Billy willing entertains & applies to ELOE, even fixes up Stun Ray to Death Ray. He gets the acceptance Dr. Horrible needs for the ELOE, and consumed by guilt over Penny (Duncan?), dies a little.

What do you think? Better?
korkster | July 21, 06:58 CET


I've got to get some sleep, but if you are going to this crazy literature parallels place, a place I have admittedly played before, how about Dr. Horrible as Macbeth and Captain Hammer as Lady Macbeth. Dr. Horrible creates the plans but is ineffectual until Captain Hammer pushes his buttons with a verbal assault on his manhood that forces him into action. It backfires on Captain Hammer making him crazy and a piece of Dr. Horrible dies at the same time. As I have pointed out before, it is unfinished. ;-)

BTW, why Macbeth?

Good night. I'll read your answer tomorrow.
I thought about that too, newcj, that CH could be Lady Macbeth. I thought she was more of a planner & executer, though, not just a show up and cause mayhem person. Who was it that went with Macbeth to hear the prophecy? Just curious.

Or, perhaps a combination of Billy & Captain Hammer play the Lady Macbeth card. CH doing the pushing, while Billy does the planning.

Well, although I did take a Shakespeare class in high school that reflected on most of his works, it was my English class that dissected the Macbeth play, everything from stage directions and night, whether it was a soliloquy or not, to the 10 different meanings behind a word. And, while I've forgotten most of it, it was nudging me in my head today as I watched Dr. Horrible. I always enjoyed this sort of descent and thought it might be fun to apply here. Especially if something can be made of it.

Good night, newcj. Don't dream of floating daggers on my account. :)
Don't dream of floating daggers...

Or of Birnam Wood.
This is totally not an addition to all the great analyzation/insight going on, but... did anyone read the newspaper? It made me chuckle a bit: "...It was going to be a great big party till Dr. Horrible messed it all up."

Also, Penny totally is wearing a sweater vest, I really want wig/sunglasses lady to be SMG, and I love all of you here for 900+ posts discussing a 45 minute web series. This is definitely my e-home. :)
... and it's gone! Off to iTunes land ... and eventually DVD-ville!
Quite an amazing week.

[ edited by zoinkers on 2008-07-21 09:13 ]
Okay, just adding my two cents into this, to say it is amazing that so much can be generated from less than three quarters of an hour, and so many things read into it. I myself just sat staring at the screen at the end of part three with my jaw on my chest at what had happened, and then I too realised I shouldn't be shocked, that this is Joss we're talking about, and he kills characters!

Apart from that, I thought it was great. As with most people, I liked Act II best, but that's just because you'd already met the characters, and could build into the upcoming denouement. As for some of the comments about Captain Hammer being redeemable ... don't we all want to redeem the handsome bad guy (and let's face it, he was badder than Dr H really)? Mind you, we also want to cuddle the good/bad doctor and tell him everything's alright ...
Ok, it's offline now. Does anyone have any idea if and when it will be available for download outside the US? Will I have to wait for the DVD?
We'll all be waiting for the DVD cause singing commentary, yay, but technically speaking it is available for download worldwide, just not paid download, the internet being wonderful that way, whether you avail yourself of this possibility depends on who you see in the mirror every morning, a morally and ethically upright citizen who never ever gets a speeding ticket or a slightly shadier character with at least a touch of scurvy.
I've nothing against being shady. I've got a PhD in shadiness. I just don't want to get shady with Joss ...
But maybe I shouldn't worry too much about this, since I'm going to buy the DVD anyway.
Walked deep into the shade (it suits me, i'm quite fair skinned ;) but only because I can't buy it in the UK yet. Soon as it goes up on eVilTunes UK i'll load the monstrosity up and buy it then go into the light.

And i'll be getting the DVD too, natch ;).

Saje, you're overly depressing today. Give us some jokes, man! ...

Here's one that'll slay you GVH ;):
See, there were these two guys in a lunatic asylum…and one night…one night they decide they don’t like living in an asylum any more. They decide they’re going to escape! So like they get up on to the roof, and there, just across the narrow gap, they see the rooftops of the town, stretching away in moon light…stretching away to freedom.

Now the first guy he jumps right across with no problem. But his friend, his friend daren’t make the leap. Y’see he’s afraid of falling… So then the first guy has an idea. He says “Hey! I have my flash light with me. I'll shine it across the gap between the buildings. You can walk across the beam and join me.” B-But the second guy just shakes his head. He suh-says …he says “What you think I am, crazy? You'd turn it off when I was half way across.

It's almost apropos too since the eponymous story is partly about being trapped in a role you wouldn't necessarily have chosen for yourself. I think Horrible would get it, put it that way.

Reckon I may need to go to my happy place for a while ;-).
Can they break 900? Not far now (888th!). Should I give myself a talking to for posting back to back comments just to snag the big triple-8? Eventually I'd get mouthy and have to ban me... Tell anyone you haven't told - only a few more horrible hours...


That scares me because, as soon as we reach that point, another set goal might be set, and we'll find another effort of sorts to reach it.
Anyway,these threads have been quite an interesting trial for when Dollhouse premieres. The Whedon fanbase scenario, nowadays is quite different from the one we had back in 2003, which was when I joined Whedonesque, and Angel was still on.

I had the chance to watch "The Dark Knight" twice during this weekend, and somehow, I can see several parallels between the movie (which deserves every praise it's been receiving) and the journey portrayed by our ME crew in Dr. Horrible Sing-Along Blog.
It can make you take another perspective into the enjoyment of our little musical.
Well at least I got to see pt1 before my old computer died & I was without internet access for almost a week before my new one arrived from Amazon & got set up & now I have to check out itunes for the first time ever and so far, I haven't even been able to reactivate my Real Plus account that has my McAfee as part of the package and I'm stuck with a free trial version of Norton that's fighting for it's pathetic little life by blocking my access to the part of my Real Plus account where my friendly McAfee awaits re-installation and I'm the umptygazillionth poster on the longest thread ever and attempting to rise to the occasion with hopefully the longest run-on sentence in the history of ever (or at least since Dickens died), and Vista? ... loving it, so far ;-)

Nine hundred thirty six comments, lost to me forever because that is not something you can just catch up on, in your spare time.

*sob*

OMG my new computer is made of awesomeness, I'd sleep with it, if I could.
Oh you can. *cough* Apparently.
Good to hear your new system is made of awesome, Shey and welcome back. I'm using Vista x64 on my primary machine and love it as well (have had it on there all year).

Saje - *cough*.
Now that was a return worthy of the Grr Arrgh. I missed Mutant Enemy even more than I'd realized.

Is anyone else completely mesmerized by the moment where Dr. Horrible twirls as he reveals the death ray, and everything changes?

Bad Horse doesn't look so tough. He was scarier in my brain. Fake Thomas Jefferson did not disappoint though.
I rewatched the entire thing yesterday, with three friends who had not seen it before (and only one of them saw anything else by Joss Whedon previously) and they loved it. It was, however, notable that to them, the finale didn't hurt so much. Or at all, even. They just thought "well, that was tragic, but man what a fun bunch of jokes and catchy tunes". I'm left wondering if that's how most people who see the whole thing for the first time might react on first viewing (one of my friends also saw the potential layers in there and felt it was a great little story, but again, not so much with the punch-in-the-gut-drama).

Saje, you big old batman fanboy! ;). Is it bad, that I found the joke sort-of funny? And is it, maybe, worse that I found myself thinking: "well, even they were really, really light they still could not make any use of the radiation pressure the photons in the light beam are producing, because that force is working in the wrong direction"? ;)

Shey: congrats on the new computer! And hey, you can read up on this thread, y'know. In fact, if you take your computer to bed with you which, apareantly, already crossed your mind ;), you could use it as a little light pre-sleep reading.

So, any chance of this thread hitting 1,000 comments? ;)

ETA:
Fake Thomas Jefferson did not disappoint though.


Y'know, thinking about it, that so would've been my user name, had I joined whedonesque after Dr. Horrible. Still, it might be a fun user-name on political blogs :p

[ edited by GVH on 2008-07-21 15:00 ]
Saje, you big old batman fanboy! ;). Is it bad, that I found the joke sort-of funny?

Guilty (though not fanboi hopefully ;). And nah, it is sort-of funny and it's also quite sweet in its own bizarre way because the point is The Joker tells it and Batman laughs i.e. he gets it, they share a connection, for the briefest moment two arch enemies are just two extremely screwed up guys that understand each other's paranoia and emotional pain.

And in the context of Dr Horrible the central thesis actually makes sense too (The Joker is trying to prove that all it takes to turn a good man insanely murderous is "one bad day") which is kind of what happens to Billy in the end (though in the early stages - as we see him at the end of act III - he's much more trapped in the role than Joker). The tragedy in both cases is that they both had a chance to choose and they both chose poorly (Batman, faced with a similar "one bad day" chooses to save people from sharing his suffering).
A few people feel that Hammer is ONLY interested in Penny because Horrible wants her. Watching their meeting, I can't agree. Hammer is spellbound. A) I don't believe he knows of Horrible's "crush" yet, though it isn't impossible given Horrible's concern that Hammer nearly got her killed. & B) I don't believe that Hammer's that good of an actor. Playing the hero is one thing, playing the lovestruck is another entirely.

Also, his wonder at the idea of sleeping with her twice... while he's interested in trying the "wierd stuff," surely he could have ample opportunity with any number of people (including our groupies & any previous dates), but he's become smitten with Penny. He's willing to endure scarey, alcoholic bums and even scarier water fowl just to spend time with her.

And in the end, I think he is devestated by her loss. I doubt he's ever lost anything that he valued before. And to have been there, to have been unable to prevent it, and even to have been partially responsible...

Anyway. I still think he's a choad and a cad, but I think he's a choad and a cad with genuine feelings. The one-up-manship with Horrible was just gravy.
I just had an interesting chat with a woman at my office. She thinks Billy turned good at the very end, as evidenced by his lack of Horrible costume in the final scene.

I...didn't see it that way.
to them, the finale didn't hurt so much. Or at all, even.

I think that has something to do with the fact that we all watched Pts. 1 & 2 over & over and fell in love with Billy.
Does anyone have any idea if and when it will be available for download outside the US?

From their most recent Tweet: "We're working on iTunes international access. CD coming soon, DVD to follow, both will be available all over the world."
Awww...its gone off the web! can't wait for the DVD...hope the make announcements soon about that!
Agreed, jcs, that's most certainly why. Also: on the - umpteenth - viewing I started to notice all the jokes that were there in Act III. Watching with my friends I found myself laughing at Cpt. Hammer's song and the groupies. These both happen before tragedy hits, but first time 'round I felt like Act III was already more serious then previous Acts at this point, because of the anticipation of "how will they end this thing we're all so involved with" the first time and the sense of impending doom on later-but-still-early rewatches.

After that, I laughed at the "spelt with" bit in Dr. Horrible's dramatic second song (where, previously, I was simply in awe with the way NPH's eyes look scarily almost-insane-like there) and, notably, at things like Moist trying to hold onto the loot and the apearance of actual-horse-'Bad Horse', after tragedy has struck. I didn't find myself laughing at those in earlier viewings because I was simply too hit emotionally. It's not that I didn't notice the funny before, it's just that it had more influence on my experience of the overall tone in this latest rewatch.

This is something that happened to me before, when rewatching Serenity, by the way: first (few) time(s) 'round I was completely shocked by Wash' death and scared for the lives of the others (even in rewatch, for some silly reason :)), while later viewings had me laugh at jokes like "tell me you brought them this time" etcetera.

This reïnforces the idea that, really, the overall tone of 'Dr. Horrible' was quite consistent, and there was even still some humor in the dramatic denouement, which shines through more, once the drama doesn't hurt so much (which, probably, for people outside of our fandom or people seeing it first time in one go, is on first viewing).

Bix: thanks for the update! I'm so looking forward to the CD and DVD. I'm wondering if Jed is working on mixing the CD full-time now, in which case: respect. This is, after all, still a project none of them is sure they'll even make money on.

ETA: reworded that first bit to let my comment approach the actual english language more ;)

[ edited by GVH on 2008-07-21 16:45 ]
There are new behind the scenes photos up on the official Facebook pages. Including Captain Hammer's van-surfing setup.
A few people feel that Hammer is ONLY interested in Penny because Horrible wants her. Watching their meeting, I can't agree. Hammer is spellbound.
Oh yes!!! I agree, and that makes this thing even more brilliant, because no one here is a cliche, and CH too gets character development. I was just discussing the same thing in another place, here's reposting:

He was a total dick but he was totally falling for Penny, he just couldn't express it properly as all those feelings were unfamiliar to him.
Pain, compassion - he even was spelling it out in his speech about flexing unfamiliar muscles! And it was sooo funny that the only way he could tell what he was feeling was by using muscles metaphore. As he's all muscles/no brains guy, doesn't even have a language for anything else.

And his song about homeless heroes was absolutely sincere - because he wasn't filtering any of the obnoxious and nasty stuff, it was like turette with him. And therefore whatever he sang about coming around on Penny's views, feeling bad for homeless, was sincere.
And it was the first time he even comprehended sleeping with the same girl twice, and again he had no language to talk about it - "weird stuff" all he could come up with. But he was definitely falling for her and coming around to her ways, i.e. he was moving in the opposite direction to Dr.Horrible.

And yes, him talking about pain in his heart, and shouting to victims as he ran away - "get out of my head", indicates not just the physical pain, but all those unfamiliar feelings of compassion and sadness doing a number on him.

Another brililant touch: the way how it ends for both of them, with Dr.Horrible saying "I don't feel a thing" and Cpt.Hammer crying on psychiatrist coach from feeling too much.

I actually thought, after Act II, that Billy and Cpt.Hammer would reconcile in the end, both moved by Penny, and team up to fight the really bad baddies, like Bad Horse. Because again, if you look at it as a political metaphore, that's a realistic optimistical outcome out of social strife. Both sides agreeing to a compromise, avoiding violence. And realizing it's not a zero-sum game for them.

But it's ending with Penny's death instead - I see it as absolutely earned and inevitable, again in context of political/social metaphore. Idealistic revolutionaries disgusted with the status quo and trying to violently overthrow the establishment almost inevitably end up not better, and mostly worse, than the powers they tried to replace.
And such a confrontation - between smug, ruthless establishment and the rebels, 100% inevitably ends with innocent people getting killed.
In this case Joss didn't play his usual trick of spoling the happy end - he just held up a mirror to the world.

We also might think of Penny as a symbol of "moral right" which both sides are trying to claim and both sides lose it, kill it by escalating to hatred and violence, and the desire to just be on top.

As for similarities with literary classics - again, have to go with Raskolnikov and "Crime and Punishment".
Maybe he was falling for her, but I think it was more the novelty of the idea of having a nice girlfriend. She was sweet and pretty, and he was her hero. But I think it would've worn off soon enough. She may have nudged his character forward a bit, but it would have still been about "mostly me" for him.
But I think it would've worn off soon enough.
Maybe, but we still end with him on a psychiatrist's coach. I agree, it's always mostly about him, but he was talking "it hurts in my heart" and "get out of my head". It all affected him a lot, and changed him a lot - but where and how would he "go from here" we would need a sequel to see. Maybe back to his smug self, but maybe not.

Also, that song of his in Act III must be taken at face value, every bit of it - bad *and* good. He's too stupid and self-involved to hide any of his thoughts or think about their impact, he spilled it all out. I.e. we should believe in his flexing the muscles of compassion along with the rest of the crap he spewed.
In that song - What You See Is What You Get. And what we saw showed pretty big change for him. Still his hate of Dr.Horrible was bigger than that, and so he pulled that trigger...
Nata, I like your take on that (and I agree). You put words to the thoughts in my head. Thanks. ;)
Hey, another comment added to this monster thread, another review.

I wasn't sure about act one, thought act two very good, and felt act three made the whole thing brilliant. Loved it, and I've had the songs playing in my head since I watched the whole thing on Saturday.

I don't know if Dr. Horrible and Penny could ever have been a couple, any more than Penny and Captain Hammer made sense as a couple. For one thing, the two didn't really agree on much unless Dr. Horrible lied about what he really felt (psyche!). I don't know how you tack on a happy ending to anything so clearly destined for a bad one.

Can't wait (though I guess I'll have to) for the sequel.
Been working the setup for Comic-Con all weekend. So I missed being a part of this record setting thread. Or reading it.

I typically don't like musicals much. I was looking forward to this as it was new Whedon, had Fillion, Harris and Day, and is striking out in uncharted territory. But I must say the musical aspect just might be my favorite part. Joss and crew put something together special enough to get past my dislike. I even found myself singing some of the songs.

Congrats Team Horrible! You have all worked to create something not horrible at all, not even close.

Shameless Plug - We got 1/3 of our Dr. Horrible shirt order for Comic-Con. So yes, we will have all 4 designs in both mens and womens at Comic-Con. From Wednesday on until they sell out.
danregal, minus the one Felicia needs because Jinx sold out, right. ;)
To add to all the others"

Joss BRILLIANT!!!! OMG. Hubby and I watched them all as they came out and it was just amazing. And when Penny bought the farm, I was shocked but then immediately said to hubby "Well, it is Joss, we should have known!"

And I also second -- "Slippage" was just simply amazing (all the songs were but this is by far my favorite).

I can't wait for the DVD and soundtrack. Especially to get the DVD for my BFF who has no internet. Sad thing she is but since she's the one that introduced me to the world of Jossness in the first place, I feel it's only fair to return the favor.
No internet! *GASP* There are still people without internet? (And they exist?? How is this possible??? Does ... not ... compute ...)
danregal, minus the one Felicia needs because Jinx sold out, right. ;)

Well sure, as long as she's got $20, she can get whichever one she wants. :)
I don't know if Dr. Horrible and Penny could ever have been a couple, any more than Penny and Captain Hammer made sense as a couple. For one thing, the two didn't really agree on much unless Dr. Horrible lied about what he really felt (psyche!). I don't know how you tack on a happy ending to anything so clearly destined for a bad one.

bigsofty | July 21, 19:47 CET


Also my thoughts, exactly, bigsofty. Even though I rooted for Billy to have a relationship with Penny (in a way I still am), I wondered what would have happened if Billy finally got her praise (which he had all the time, BTW).

Would he be as turned off with Penny's efforts for the homeless as he was with the signatures? I know he was genuinely happy when Penny got the building, but in "Brand New Day", he seems to think his efforts will win her over (to his side of thinking)...

"and she may cry but her tears will dry when I hand her the keys to a shiny new Australia"

I don't think there is room for compromise in Billy's world. Just as he turned his back on her to win the Wonderflonium, he'd probably turn his back for world domination.

Or, Penny would realize that Billy & CH aren't that much different in their narrow-mindedness, and she'd leave them both.
I'm sure she won't mind, danregal. This way, it saves her on shipping. :) I think she needed a small.
Felicia will be getting her shirt. :)
I would hope so. Heh.
I wonder what would happen to a thread when it reaches 1000 posts. Does it spontaneously combust and destroy the internet?

Anyways, my final grade of DHSAB is 9.69438/10. :)
9.69438/10


Why so harsh, crazygolfa? Wasn't it liquid gold (which is even better than solid gold- you can shape it into anything and they're not so bulky)?

ETA: Is anyone else proud that we've managed to stay more or less on topic for 960+ comments? I mean, where are the squirrels, cliffs, and math quizzes?

[ edited by korkster on 2008-07-21 22:10 ]
Been catching up on this thread for a while. I do kinda agree with korkster's Macbeth paralell. there isn't much,but there is something. I'd like to see further back into Billy's history, see why he wanted to become a super-villain. I'm sure there's someone in his past that helped him in this direction.wether they knew it or not.

Someone less nice than Penny would probably have left both DH and CH but Penny seems the kinds to stay and help.

BTW,I have to ask,how many people here have twitter?
there isn't much,but there is something.


Thanks, okelay, for the boost of confidence. :) Like I said, I'm rusty.

I know 4 from here who have Twitter. I also have Twitter, under korkster (go figure). :)
ETA: Is anyone else proud that we've managed to stay more or less on topic for 960+ comments? I mean, where are the squirrels, cliffs, and math quizzes?


I'm proud.

So, anyone see those counting squirrels on MadeUpTelevisionProgram last night? I still can't believe they could do integral calculus! Too bad they fell off that one cliff at the end. Although one was left hanging. It was a real cliffhanger... bun-dun *tsjjjj*


sorry!
Well, lets get back to topic, who's better the Pink Pummeler or Conflict Diamond? :)

I tweety-tweet-tweet. My handle is crazygolfa, surprisingly.
I'm going to have to go with Pink Pummeler. Never underestimate the power of alliteration.
Ok, so having watched for the (according to the iTunes counter)20th time I see what people are saying about the strange wig/sunglasses lady next to the groupies in Act III.
Well, we barely saw CD, who knows what his power is?

Im confused, was is ever stated that Moist was part of the henchman's union?
Oh and of course Conflict Diamond ended up with Bait instead of Switch...diamonds are a girl's best friend....

ETA: ok well not "conflict" diamonds...but still, if your a super-villian dater you might like that the diamonds were not so ethically gained...ok now I'm overthinking this...

[ edited by chance on 2008-07-22 01:10 ]
[/lurk]

Dr. Horrible was fantastic. Reading a large percentage of these nearly 1000 posts has also been fantastic. =)

I am inspired to do something awesome. Horribly awesome? Maybe.

- Andrea

[lurk]
Ok, so having watched for the (according to the iTunes counter)20th time I see what people are saying about the strange wig/sunglasses lady next to the groupies in Act III.

That could really be her I reckon. Cool if so.

(checking is fun cos it's another chance to see/hear Nathan's truly brilliant and hilarious 'Spoken Shatner' style hero song. "Captain Hammer sings ..." anyone ? ;)
Well, lets get back to topic, who's better the Pink Pummeler or Conflict Diamond? :)

I tweety-tweet-tweet. My handle is crazygolfa, surprisingly.
crazygolfa | July 21, 23:22 CET


You bring up a good point. I think I might have missed something on these names. Does Pink Pummeler & Conflict Diamond have any connotations that I'm not getting?

Well, we barely saw CD, who knows what his power is?


okelay, we saw Conflict Diamond?? Was he at the party? If so, I totally missed it. Is there a map?

Nice try, GVH, on de-railment, but I think I can actually apply this to Dr. Horrible:

So, anyone see those counting squirrels on MadeUpTelevisionProgram last night? I still can't believe they could do integral calculus! Too bad they fell off that one cliff at the end. Although one was left hanging. It was a real cliffhanger... bun-dun *tsjjjj*


Integral calculus= death nerd= Billy= squirrel-like= fell off cliff (became Dr. Horrible)= one was left hanging (Billy trapped on inside)= real cliffhanger (we all want a sequel)

See how I did that? ;)
I like Captain Hammer's singing, Saje. He does have a Kirk-ness to him, now that I think about it.
I thought CD was the one with Moist in Act III,when they're trying to get a hold of DH.don't know if he was at the party.
Nah, it was Pink Pummeler in the room with Moist. Hence the pink, the 2 P's, and the boxing gloves.
Right,see, I need to watch again.
Are we assuming Conflict Diamond, Bait, and Switch are present somewhere despite not being in the credits?
No, not assuming. okelay said that Moist was in the bedroom with Conflict Diamond, but I think it was Pink Pummeler.

I was confused, and had wondered if CD, B&S, & PP were at DH's party as well. Probably not, though.

Now, back to me my question: Is there anything funny about Conflict Diamond?
Well,since we never saw him,I'm not finding anything funny with the name
Korkster said:

Why so harsh, crazygolfa? Wasn't it liquid gold (which is even better than solid gold- you can shape it into anything and they're not so bulky)?


The .30562 percent from being perfect is two reasons. One, Penny died which accounts for the .3 percent, and secondly, the .00562 percent is that there was no Cheese Man. Every thing must have a Cheese Man! :)
Captain Hammer = Cheese Man

Did you not get the memo?

ETA: Between your demands and the CheeseyBreads place on the Guild, I'm hungry.

[ edited by korkster on 2008-07-22 00:59 ]
okelay, okay. Just making sure I wasn't being slow on something (like the Bait & Switch bit).
Ok, so if we hit the 1000th post we should come up with 1000 reasons why we loved Dr Horrible...which would get us to the 2000th post pretty easy right...lol
Heh, chance. I'll join in, if you do the first, oh, 500-or-so ;)

korkster, color me impressed. I guess you have discoverred the power to turn anything into a treatise on Dr. Horrible (wait, does that make you one of these agenda analysts, Bix was talking about cross-thread? ;))

ETA: added a smiley, because on re-read, the above comment sounded harsh (while it was meant tongue-in-cheek)

[ edited by GVH on 2008-07-22 02:38 ]
has anyone been able to identify all the atendees to the party?
Erm, how would we possibly identify all of them when there aren't enough names given in the credits or via dialogue?
GVH...with enough liquor and time the first 500 will be easy, its that 501st that will be rough...

ETA: ok so now y'all are afraid to post...

[ edited by chance on 2008-07-22 01:37 ]
Okelay, maybe the DVD extras will tell us more...
IDK, just curious if anyone has been bored enough to try.
That looks like SMG behind those Foster Grants to me, and we also have this little bit from our trustworthy camera-guy and rumor-confirmer bobw1o from back in March:

"Another Whedon Alum stopped by, but only to visit. In the case that this person is a cast member though, I'm gonna keep that one for now."

So I'm thinking yeah, could be, could be.
korkster, I assume you do actually know about the general usage of the phrase 'conflict diamond'...?
Nata,

I think Captain Hammer said "Get Out of My Way" and then he pushes a woman (Norma Jean wrote about it in her blog) to the floor. I think she was in a sitting position.

On Captain Hammer

I think Captain Hammer dates every woman he saves and even women who are not really in any danger. Note how he jumped off the van and sang to the woman. She wasn't in any danger from the van at that time. But still he sang this.

http://doctorhorrible.net/sf-forum/the-music/lyrics-transcript/page-1/

CAPTAIN HAMMER
"Seems destiny ends with me saving you.
The only doom that's looming is you loving me to death.
I'll give you a sec to catch your breath."

Then he has to save Penny.

"CAPTAIN HAMMER
The only doom that's looming is you loving me to death.
PENNY
Assuming I'm not loving you to death.
DR HORRIBLE
What-ev-er
CAPTAIN HAMMER and PENNY
So please give me a sec to catch my breath"

I was hoping the loving me to death wasn't literal when I heard that in Act I. And Well, Penny didn't die after the first time.

Until Penny, he dated women he saved or just came across and had sex with them and went on to the next woman.

"CAPTAIN HAMMER
This is so nice.
I just might sleep with the same girl twice.
They say it's better the second time,
they say you get to do the weird stuff."

CAPTAIN HAMMER
"When I fell deeply in love with my serious long-term girlfriend Penny, wave your hand Penny,"

To Captain Hammer Long-term here means anything past "I totally had sex with her" that one time. And that never happened before.
In relation to diamond trading, blood diamond (also called a converted diamond, conflict diamond, hot diamond or a war diamond) refers to a diamond mined in a war zone and sold, in order to finance an insurgency, invading army's war efforts, or supporting a warlord's activity, usually in Africa.

- Wikipedia
Perhaps someone can ask the SMG question at Comic-Con, if we don't have an answer before then. It would be a very nice little touch.

Can't believe we're going to pass 1,000 posts - will this ever be beaten? Actually I'm wondering how this thread would rank on a list of the longest threads anywhere on the internet.

Anyway, back to Dr Horrible itself. Act III really did hit me pretty hard - perhaps more so than even the first time I saw The Body. As others have said I think it was the repeated viewings of the previous acts (and pretty much falling in love with it) that made the ending feel so brutal. First time I watched all three acts together (which was my third viewing of Act III) I just felt numb - even the jokes weren't funny. However, on the couple of further viewings I had before it vanished, I did rediscover the joy of the previous acts and realised how appropriate the bleak ending was. The songs in Act III don't really click as well for me however, so it still remains my least favourite of the acts for now, even though I do appreciate it so much more now than when I first saw it.

The only slight problem I see, going forward, is that even if Joss writes a story for children about teddy bears, now I'll still be expecting it to end in a massacre! ;)

There's no doubt that it's an amazing project and I’m really looking forward to getting that download and later the DVD to watch it all again. That a 45 minute project can be this moving and fascinating is just incredible. Across the different threads here, there's over 2,000 comments on DH since it launched. I’ve got nothing more to add other than thank you.
Perhaps someone can ask the SMG question at Comic-Con, if we don't have an answer before then.

Yeah, can't bobw1o just answer it for us now? ;)
Thanks, bix. While I did know the term 'blood diamond', I had not heard 'conflict diamond' before. Whedonesque: it's an educational place.

cypher: I'd say that for a blog, this is a friggin' awesome amount of posts. For any old posting board though, where there are nonsense threads like "answer a question, ask a new one", 1,000 comments would be a more regular occurence, I'd guess.

ETA: crap, if I would've typed faster, I could've had the 1,000th post ;)

[ edited by GVH on 2008-07-22 02:42 ]
Question for the Dr. Horrible panel.

Does the Captain Hammer Command Center have a video surveillance system? Felicia doesn't have to do Craft Services. If nothing else happens (seems Joss thought about zombies but rejected it) , there is always flashbacks and the video or "capture" like in Serenity.
ETA: crap, if I would've typed faster, I could've had the 1,000th post ;)

Just be glad I didn't simply post "snarf", which is what was the norm on a system I was on 15 years ago.
Are you people still at it? Honestly, this is sad.

Thinking about David Fury's question "who's gay?", there has been this tacit assumption throughout that Moist is straight and therefore that Conflict Diamond is also a straight male, and Bait and Switch are women. But the bedroom scene with Moist and the Pink Pummeler suggests things could be more complicated.

Which has me thinking that maybe Bait and Switch are Ben and Glory.

And, on a unrelated note, at the end, when they show how the three groupies have switched to being Dr Horrible fans, the girl who laminates everything (is that a super power I wonder?) is holding a picture of Dr H. Except it doesn't look like a photo to me, it looks more like it's supposed to be a Jason Palmer print.

Anyone else notice that?
Yeah, good point, GVH, my wondering on that issue is at an end. ;)
yay,a thousand posts!!

Thanks for explaining 'conflict diamond', I had not heard that before
Anonymous1, I just rewatched it (again...) and clearly heard that CH said "get out of my mind". But maybe I'm wrong... I wish there was an official transcript, or even better, official subtitles. I guess we have to wait till DVD to find out.

Also were the two guys rollng Penny's body away the same guys who were singing about CH becoming "political" and cleaning up the streets?

And just have to add - I thought Act II was the best song-wise and Act III didn't have really catchy tunes. Now I think Act III is the killer musically, especially the last minute of Dr.Horrible becoming evil.
I step away for, like, a day and there are (what's the ascii symbol for infinity) [insert ascii symbol for infinity]-1 comments. Sweet Baby Jesus.

As the Purple Pimp, my catch phrase should be "Get them, my womens!", "Church on the MOVE!" or "My pimp hand be STRONG".

As for a party- no, there was no party here for that. I suspect when the DVD comes out and I buy one that I'll have a rather meta moment as I throw a party here in the Lab to watch the DVD of the show that was filmed here in the Lab.

A similar event transpired when I had a party to watch the Monster House episode (Episode 22, the Mad Scientist Monster House) while sitting in the self same house. It was rad.

I don't know if I'll wear my mad scientist coat / costume or not, but who knows. I don't so much as need a reason for a party so much as an opening in the schedule. :)
"Get them, my womens!"

This so gets my vote. And someday I might also steal it.
Ha. But please don't.
I'm going to yell it at Comic-Con at some point and see what happens.
And now, I really wish I was going this year cuz I have to see that. (Oh, but do it while standing next to gossi. He's tall (or so he says!) and everyone will think it's him.)
Wow, I was proud of myself for reading and pondering on the first 300 or so comments and then I checked back... and I just cannot keep up. This thread has a life of its' own. I still can't quite find the words to dissect the piece or my reactions to it in a coherent way. So I'll just say I loved it (how original!) and it left an ache in my chest for some reason that hasn't gone away. But then again anything that inspires strong feelings/emotions leaves a mark or an ache doesn't it? Finely crafted for sure because I became more invested in these characters than I have with others I've had a much longer time with. Sigh. Must come back when I'm more articulate and less sleepy - I hear that helps with the making of sense.
Ya know, I don't think Penny would get along with Moist. She always uses somewhat negative water analogies in her songs. Almost drowned, rain, stormy sailing. He might give her nightmares. Which would probably boost his self-esteem.
It's a step up from "clammy", that's fer sure.

I'm going to yell it at Comic-Con at some point and see what happens.

Sounds like a pretty useful battle-cry if and when the Doctor Steel crew get their rowd on.
Heh ;). Or at the very least, it'll confuse them long enough to either make a run for it, or instantly overpower them :p
1016! (and still going, congrats to the hosts!)

I was struck again at how much there is in 45 minutes. While each of the acts could be expanded to an hour (and people would then decide to trim this or that if they do it ...) it's almost a lesson in story telling. Setup, Conflict, Resolve.

Unicode infinity symbol: ∞ U+221E
AlanD - Wait, are you saying there's some connection between Ben and Glory!?!?

Speaking of connections, I'm pretty sure the Cole-Whedon clan and the Steenburgen-Danson clan have summer houses near each other here in MA. (And could I *sound* anymore Lovey Howell??!Sheesh! ;-)
Wow. Gilligan's Isle was just referenced on the Dr. Horrible thread... *looks around for the kitchen sink*
OzLady, yes, that's what this thread needs, another round of Ben/Glory insanity. While we all know that there's not even a remote connection between the two.

Wait, what was I saying?

1020!
There used to be sink characters in some fonts, but they didn't make it into Unicode. I remember a single-tub laundry sink (with legs) and a double-bowl kitchen sink with pipes below, but can't find either. The only use I can think of them is so that the symbols of the font could be said to include "and the sink!"
OMJ!! (Yeah, I know I used that in Joss' thread, but I'm still reeling from his Purple Grace.)

GVH, I wasn't sure it could be done, but we're here over 1000 posts! Yay! This calls for a celebration of come kind. :D

Thank you everyone for realizing my dream! :)

ALright (yep, Dr. Horrible's "ALright"), let's get down to comments:

korkster, color me impressed. I guess you have discoverred the power to turn anything into a treatise on Dr. Horrible (wait, does that make you one of these agenda analysts, Bix was talking about cross-thread? ;))

ETA: added a smiley, because on re-read, the above comment sounded harsh (while it was meant tongue-in-cheek)

[ edited by GVH on 2008-07-22 02:38 ]
GVH | July 22, 01:18 CET


No prob, GVH, you are colored. And no harsh taken... probably because I don't get your tongue here and I'm too lazy to look it up. :)

ActuallY, I have a way to get to the 2000 Post! mark. So far, we've only analyzed the words of DHSAB, but we haven't looked at the rhythm of the songs themselves. I think by dissecting the songs (treating them like poems) we can distinguish patterns in the lyrics and determine the shifts in tone that carry the plot (i.e., Billy turning into Dr. Horrible seems to have a shift in where the song rhymes). Mwah ha ha! I kid... no, actually I want to know. Anyone up for it?

No, kalia, I have no clue. Help me! I'm dumb! When you assume you make an ass out of, uh, me, actually. :\

Thanks, bix, for understanding my dumb and explaining it to me. By taking the Bait from Moist, does it make it funny though? :? Maybe you should connects the dots for me, please.

Jonathan Reilly, oh, my Purple Pimp! I've been looking for a mad scientist costume. Where, oh where did you acquire such a one? And the goggles, please. Home Depot doesn't seem to have the same model. :(


"Get them, my womens!"

This so gets my vote. And someday I might also steal it.
theonetruebix | July 22, 05:04 CET


I can see Spike saying this, actually. :)

Sounds like a pretty useful battle-cry if and when the Doctor Steel crew get their rowd on.
Saje | July 22, 09:35 CET


Definitely will use it, if needed. Like Bad Horse says, "There will be blood, it might be", uh, theirs. I don't bleed. >)

Ya know, I don't think Penny would get along with Moist. She always uses somewhat negative water analogies in her songs. Almost drowned, rain, stormy sailing. He might give her nightmares. Which would probably boost his self-esteem.
hacksaway | July 22, 07:33 CET


I disagree, Hacksaway. Penny uses water as both negative & positive reflections in DHSAB. Even though it's stormy and raining, the "rain flows to the ground" and "grows the seeds you're sowing" or something to that effect. She sees it as both nurishing and overpowering... depends on the dose. For Moist, I would say that he's a nurishment to Billy/Dr. Horrible... nurish = good = something Penny would like.

She's pretty much a positive person.
Ack! Did I kill it? Nooo!
Nah, korkster. It's not dead yet. But: it's certainly getting close. In a hospital scene, they'd be starting to zoom in on the heart monitor slowing down, right about now.

But congrats on the 1,000. Everyone has dreams and sometimes they even come true! Like with Billy, when he actually became Dr. Horrible and got into the ELOE. Y'know how we were all happy for him, and cheered and the like? It's like that, only fun-er.

So: party! I'll put out some chairs, clear a space for dancing, put on some music, prepare some snacks, get some booze... Now it's time to wait and see if anyone joins in ;)

No prob, GVH, you are colored. And no harsh taken... probably because I don't get your tongue here and I'm too lazy to look it up. :)


You know that sounds all wrong, right? ;). (It's the Joss-rollercoaster-thing all over again :)).

And yes, I too could totally see ATF-Spike saying 'get them, my womans!'

Soooo... *crickets chirp*.. Dr. Horrible sure was great huh?
I love the look that Captain Hammer shoots toward camera whenever the groupie trio sings the "we do the weird stuff!" line.

I know y'all were talking about Hammer's dialogue in the psychiatrist's office... but it reminded me of something that puzzled me in Act III: As C.H. runs out of the room in pain after the explosion of the Death Ray- he knocks a prone victim out of the way and yells "get out of my life!"

Doesn't that seem a little strange?

P.S.- I'm so impressed...I'd never have believed that the meaning behind the character names of Fury Lieka and Conflict Diamond would have been logically explained before we got to hear the DVD commentary.

Now I throw down the gauntlet on Fake Thomas Jefferson, Dead Bowie & Professor Normal !

[ edited by MikeTMC on 2008-07-23 01:33 ]
I think he simply yells (or, growls, really), "Get out of my way."
And on a completely sort-of unrelated personal note: my Dr. Horrible story + review got published today. Quick, everybody, learn Dutch :p (also let me note: I did not pick out that frankly quite silly NPH picture, might e-mail my editor about that ;))
Oh, thank goodness of evil, I'm not alone here. :)

You know that sounds all wrong, right? ;). (It's the Joss-rollercoaster-thing all over again :)).

And yes, I too could totally see ATF-Spike saying 'get them, my womans!'

Soooo... *crickets chirp*.. Dr. Horrible sure was great huh?
GVH | July 23, 01:24 CET


Someone needs to get their mind out of the gutter and let things lay where they are...

Wha?

Actually, I'm going to keep posting, because there IS MORE to do, damn it!

Like today, I was watching Act 3 for the millionth time, and I JUST noticed the photo flashes on Billy/Dr. Horrible after Penny dies. This plays perfectly into my light theme, where cool/light/blue= Dr. Horrible and dark/yellow= Billy. Which I discussed earlier in this thread (800's perhaps?).

ALright, so here we are, Dr. Horrible/Billy is holding the death ray up to CH and the Freeze Ray dies. The color goes to cool blue to yellow hue (his (DH) defeat of battle= Billy). Billy gets punched in the face and is spread aross the room. Explosion happens, CH runs out, Billy gets up... and sees Penny (still yellow hue). As he comes to grips, and Billy slips away... the first thing said by the public eye is "Dr. Horrible". At that time, blue flashes of light (which are supposed to be photographs) are taken. They continue to be taken as Dr. Horrible emerges as the public face and Billy slips under the cover.

Evil happens in broad daylight (Dr. Horrible color).

Party starts, Dr. Horrible goes on in (white), but it's DARK outside when he changes outfits (defeat of Billy color=DARK; red & black outfit= evil transformaion and no longer pure; goggles on= Billy covered by DH's image). Door closes on meeting.

Cut to vlog- DARK outside (Billy's defeat color), Billy's in his clothes, yellow hue in room. Billy is defeated/devastated/numb, while the image of Dr. Horrible rages on.

In my mind, the flashes of photographs taken (blue colors) represent the emergence of Dr. Horrible as a public face. The last one to see Billy as he was (yellow) was Penny.

Next comment to occur later tonight: Rhyme pattern shifts in DHSAB to reflect transgression of characters.

So, tune in! :)
GVH, if I could read Dutch, I'd be all over that. :)

Definitely need to fix that picture of NPH. It has nothing to do with DHSAB and so many better pictures of him. :P
I for one support as many images of Neil Patrick Harris riding a unicorn as the internet can possibly hold.
korkster, I'll try and get my mind out of the gutter. But mind you, it is very comfortable there ;). Also, Dutch? Not so hard. Okay, so I lie and it's actually a pretty difficult langauge to learn (or so I've heard) but that doesn't mean the added bonus of being able to read my article isn't worth all the hard work :p

Sunfire, I'd agree with you in principle, because well... absurd and funny. But I'm thinking this'll confuse people into thinking there's unicorns in DHSAB. And then they'd just end up dissapointed. I mean, they'd get a horse, but it's just not the same thing.

Those were some amusing links there, QC :)
I disagree, Hacksaway. Penny uses water as both negative & positive reflections in DHSAB. Even though it's stormy and raining, the "rain flows to the ground" and "grows the seeds you're sowing" or something to that effect. She sees it as both nurishing and overpowering... depends on the dose. For Moist, I would say that he's a nurishment to Billy/Dr. Horrible... nurish = good = something Penny would like.

She's pretty much a positive person.

Well, I was mostly kidding about her not liking water/Moist, and I did only say "somewhat" negative. I agree that Penny is a positive person, but I think the not so happy imagery is worth noting. She begins with a negative (almost drowning, stormy sailing) but is hopeful that it will get better (solid ground, finding the bay). Key word is "hope" because, well, she didn't get that happy ending. So while she wants things to be good, she also acknowledges the reality that bad things exist and have happened to her. She's at a transitional (flowing water?) point, and she's hoping things are changing for the better. Having a positive outlook doesn't mean being blind to other possibilities, as she was definitely having second thoughts about Captain Hammer. Just my two cents. Mostly I was just amused by all the water references in her songs.

Sketch of Doc and Penny
Thought that was cute.
I agree and disagree with you, hacksaway. But first, let me just say, "oh, you were kidding? okay, my head's been here too long. sorry."

The picture is cute, BTW. (I actually said "BTW" to my brother and he told me to stop acting like an idiot. Can I not say that in conversation?)

I agree with you in the fact that the not-so-worthy imagery of water is worth noting. "Story sailing" and "almost drowned" are negative visuals of water, agreed. As I mentioned with my "over-powering" force of water earlier.

BUT, you can't just focus on the negative, either. The rain brings "water flowing to the ground" providing the nourishment for growing "seeds you're sowing in the ground".

Bottom thought:
Penny would like Moist as he is.
If Moist started to sweat and get nervous, she may not like him as much.

And even though she was having second thoughts about CH, that has nothing to do with DH's nourishing friend.
GVH, is Dutch like a combination of Finnish & German? I could meet you halfway then. Or, you can just teach me. For free. I'd be fine with that too. :)

QG, thanks for the Fake TJ. I'm glad the ELOE picture was fixed with the correct characters. Snake Bite clearly has a snake on her staff. Still don't know what a Leika is though. :|

[ edited by korkster on 2008-07-23 05:48 ]
By taking the Bait from Moist, does it make it funny though? :? Maybe you should connects the dots for me, please.

I may be missing the meaning of this question, but I'll give answering it a try. If I am stating the obvious please forgive me. "Bait and switch" is when someone advertises something very cheaply using it as bait just to give the seller the opportunity to get you to switch to buying something more expensive. So Moist and Conflict Diamond were going out with someone named Bait and someone named Switch. Moist thought he was going to get Bait but apparently they pulled a bait and switch on him.

Did that help?
Thanks, newcj. I got that one from the show. I was more curious with the fact that CD ended up with Bait was a joke in itself. I guess not.

Thanks for answering! :)
Okay, so I lie and it's actually a pretty difficult langauge to learn (or so I've heard) but that doesn't mean the added bonus of being able to read my article isn't worth all the hard work :p

This, IMO, is partly because the bloody Dutch speak English too well ! ;) Seriously, my parents have lived all over the world and generally pick up enough of the local lingo to get by but constantly complained that in the Netherlands (where they lived for 3 years) every time they went into a shop or restaurant and the staff heard their Scottish accents, they'd immediately switch over to basically flawless English thus depriving them of one of the key methods for learning a foreign language. I mean, that's just plain inconsiderate ;).

(you might scrape by reading Dutch if you speak German well korkster. And not much is really a combination of X and Finnish BTW, Finnish is a so-called language isolate i.e. it's not part of the Indo-European family that nearly all European languages are in - it's closest to Estonian and Hungarian)
korkster, wouldn't even know where to begin, teaching someone Dutch. Maybe let someone watch the news on loop? :). And, yeah, as Saje said: Dutch is pretty close to German. Different on a lot of points, sure, but if you know German, you should be able to pick up Dutch a lot quicker (it's like German, only with less logical rules for building up correct sentences, so harder ;)).

Saje: yeah, we do do that. I wouldn't say the English of the Dutch is flawless, though (I get sympathy-shame when I hear Dutch accents or typical Dutch mistakes, for instance). Although, yes, we do pretty much all at least speak English a little. And the main reason for that is: subtitled television and movies. Everyone here gets 50%-or-more of their entertainment in English, so they're bound to pick up the language eventually (and also: we start getting English lessons at quite an early age). And for people doing university it's even worse: pretty much all our books are in English (because, well, who's going to write a treatise on radiation transport in Dutch for the 100-or-so students a year who need it - if that - in the entire country ;)) and some of our courses are as well.

I myself spoke and understood English when I was, well, five, I think, simply from watching English cartoons (on Sky channel's 'Fun Factory', which we received over here when I was young). But then I only learned how to write in English when I was, oh, 13 or so, so my written English has always been slightly worse than my spoken English.

Dr. Horrible <-- see, I'm on-topic!
I guess when I say "basically flawless English" i'm very much comparing it to my entirely flawful Dutch ;).
I wouldn't say the English of the Dutch is flawless, though (I get sympathy-shame when I hear Dutch accents or typical Dutch mistakes, for instance). Although, yes, we do pretty much all at least speak English a little.
GVH | July 23, 13:34 CET


I guess when I say "basically flawless English" i'm very much comparing it to my entirely flawful Dutch ;).
Saje | July 23, 13:39 CET


I've never been to Holland, but the Dutch speakers I've met in the USA, whether from Curacao or Holland, have always had the best American accents of any group of people for whom English as a second language. Their grammar blended in pretty well too. I always figured it had to do with the closeness of the roots of English and Dutch. They both come from German, but German speakers seem to have a much harder time losing their accent than Dutch speakers.

BTW, the songs from Dr. Horrible have been going through my head a lot. Penny's song is really stuck even though it is not my favorite at all.

I wonder if they will ever let us know who wrote which songs.
Adding to some of the debate/comments on Penny's death, my interpretation is that it was a brilliant and necessary plot twist, despite being a painful one.

Penny's association with Captain Hammer, not Dr. Horrible, caused her demise. If Hammer hadn't embarrassed her with his bragging about the sex they'd had, she wouldn't have been where she was in the room--closer to where the shrapnel spray from the death ray explosion ultimately landed. Also, Dr. Horrible's moment of hesitation on following through to pull the death ray trigger allowed Hammer to live because it resulted in the death ray losing power. But Captain Hammer, after all, ignored Dr. Horrible's plea not to pull the trigger when, at that point, Dr. Horrible was clearly defeated and at Hammer's mercy. The backlash, literally, of Hammer's unthinking act of revenge and domination -- enforcing "right" -- directly resulted in Penny's death.

IMHO, Hammer, the "good guy" was sort of disconnected from everyday life and Penny's death has made him human, taught him the meaning of pain, and brought him down to earth; flip side, Penny's death removed Dr. Horrible's last tenuous connection to humanity and goodness. It's always the little people who get squished in the big fight between good and evil!
Dr. Horrible brought the death ray into a room full of innocent bystanders. Even if he didn't pull the trigger, this one's on him.
On Captain Hammer and the death raygun.

I wonder how many times Dr. Horrible has pointed a raygun at Captain Hammer and had nothing happen.

The Anti-Muscle raygun only makes a clicking sound. http://www.myspace.com/darkhorsepresents?issuenum=12&storynum=2 Captain Hammer grabs it and says "What does this one not do?"

So how many times has this happened before.

Then the Freeze ray didn't work at the SuperHero Memorial Bridge. Took too long to warm up...that would look like another non-working raygun.

Captain Hammer is singing his song when he is hit by the Freeze Raygun. He unfreezes and notices that Dr. Horrible has snuck up on him.

Notice how Captain Hammer finishes his song "Way". Probably doesn't even know he was frozen, didn't even see the Freeze raygun at all and therefore could not realize that one of Dr. Horrible's rayguns had actually worked.

So why should he think that Dr. Horrible's Death raygun would work. And he certainly couldn't know that it would blow up. I was really surprised that he didn't hold the raygun backwards.
Hello, darkness, my old friend.

Dr. Horrible is the only thing I've ever bought on iTunes.
That's a very good point, anonymous1. It's very likely Hammer assumed the ray would do nothing and it would just be another joke. He may be a narcissistic jackass, but if anyone was going for "revenge and domination" it was Dr. Horrible. Not that Hammer would have shed any tears if it had worked and killed Horrible. (To be fair, I don't think Horrible would have pulled the trigger either.)

[ edited by hacksaway on 2008-07-24 04:53 ]
Goods points, all. Just saying, it's ironic.

It's not like Hammer aspires to get into the Evil League of Evil--but because he's a superhero, he acts quickly w/o giving things much thought.

From his viewpoint, he doesn't have to think hard about his choices. He's Captain Hammer, the good guy, and he knows he's always right. What's to think about? Penny's death was an unforeseeable outcome of his actions, but I think he expected--or, at least hoped--to kill Dr. Horrible.

Pointing the death ray at Dr. Horrible, Captain Hammer says:
"Let's see if this one works any better than the others. I don't have time for your warnings. You give my regards to St. Peter, or whoever has his job but in hell!"

[ edited by sphinx on 2008-07-24 07:25 ]

[ edited by sphinx on 2008-07-24 14:35 ]
Sorry to go a tad off topic (not that it really matters at this point, I'm not even sure who's still reading this thread), but ...

Is there anywhere I can buy a poster of NPH on a unicorn? It would truly make me very happy to see that on my wall.

As I was typing this post, I did a quick search, and it is actually poster art (which I didn't know), but I still can't find the actual poster. I've tried eBay and AllPosters...

ETA: Oh, fucking awesome, eBay.com came through, and I now have a 11'' x 17'' poster on its way to me. Only $10 toooooo (shipping cost more). I'm sorry, I don't know why this makes me so happy.

Is swearing allowed here..? I've never thought about it before.


ETA2: Hahha, got my h5 and h1 tags mixed up. Ahh.. Probably should've been using a font tag or something anyway.

[ edited by MattK on 2008-07-25 02:21 ]
Dude, seriously? You went looking for a picture of NPH on a unicorn, and found one on ebay. That is so, surreal.

While you're at it, see if you can find me a picture of Felicia Day riding a unicow (which is not as far fetched as it sounds).
Are we assuming Conflict Diamond, Bait, and Switch are present somewhere despite not being in the credits?

It would be pretty damn sweet if Conflict Diamond is the dude doing the robot dance at the end. I hadn't connected them until now. Actually nothing connects them at all except for my wish that they be the same person. Because it takes a true badass to get down in a robotic fashion at an evil social event. Whoever he is, he is secure in his evilness.
AlanD: I'd seen a photo of him on a unicorn before. I didn't know where it was from though, or even if it was anything official. Turns out it's from Harold & Kumar, which is now something I'll have to watch.

Even more awesome is that the top of the poster has these exact words "What would NPH do?" I got the smaller poster because (aside from cost) I can actually frame it, which is odd, I know... I think I might actually quite enjoy the looks of befuddlement on my friends' faces when they see it.

As for unicows, I find it an interesting concept, mostly because it implies (from unicorn) that an animal called a corn exists, perhaps corn should now be synonymous with horse. "I want to go corn riding today." "Oh, are you watching corn races?" "I know a good corn to place a bet on." Honestly, there could be hours of fun.

(I should probably go to bed now before I make any other impulse purchases or strange comments out of tiredness.)


[ edited by MattK on 2008-07-25 02:28 ]
Actually no. A unicow is a unicorn/cow hybrib, like a cownicorn but more sullen and less smarmy. Both animals feature on the Gorgeous Tiny Chicken Machine Show. And just to show I am not making this up, here is the episode in which Felicia guest stars. In several shots toward the end she can be seen along with unicow. But while she appears to ride the bush baby, she does not get that close to unicow
Wierd. I just finished watching the odd fish cop episode. I can't believe I just typed those last four words together... on purpose.
Wow. We degenerated from empassioned analysis of Dr. Horrible to describing the differences between unicow and cownicorn. That's impressive.
I wouldn't call it degenerated, QingTing. Obviously we're merely looking for outside media influences on character selection. :)

Nice take on Dr. Horrible, sphinx, and nice counter hacksaway. I actually agree on both points. It's nice because based on the context of the piece, there could be arguments for both.

And I know I promised an analysis of the whole score of Dr. Horrible, but Comic-Con got in the way last week. When I do get to it, none may be following. But for those die-hards out there *cough* GVH *cough*, I swear I'll tell the tale. The more I think about it, though, the more I wonder if there's any logical thought on it.

And I totally can't get the songs out of my head. Still.
Wait, did someone cough my name? ;)

I have not been able to get the songs out of my head either. Actually, I was singing 'A Man's Gotta Do' - without really noticing it - after my volleyball training this week and people asked me what the hell I was singing. Two more converts right there (I love my friends, sometimes. In the sense of pretty much always, really. Apart from the few who dislike everything Joss Whedon does. And I only dislike them on the rare occasions we discuss His Purpleliciousness ;)).
Never understood that. I'm convinced my friend doesn't like Joss Whedon just because I like him. She liked Firefly well enough, Serenity too, but she refuses to give the Purple dude his credit. I've never understood that. |P

Speaking of Evil, and how the other thread has been washed away off the main page... have you figured out your Evil character yet?

Was sporting my Horrible shirt today. Got some looksies, but they were from my not-hip co-workers who have grandchildren. It was a wasted opportunity, but my circle is small. I hope they make more shirts. With sayings. That would be rad.

ETA: Wow, they have TONS at Cafe Press. My favorite is "I do the weird stuff for Captain Hammer". And the Australia. And Penny's colored heart on black. Too cool. If only the monies were going to DHSAB, I'd hop on them.

[ edited by korkster on 2008-07-31 04:42 ]
Yeah, I saw them on cafe press. Most are pretty cool. Not so much the ones that look just like the official ones. What's up with that? Not nice.
I'd like this one better without the text.
Yikes! People here. Besides me! *creeped*

Yeah, bix, that made me spit out turkey. Love it. Plus the "I do the Weird Stuff with Moist", Penny's colored heart shirt (it's pretty), the Australia one (ha!)... the Hammer pictures make me wonder... they don't really look like a hammer...

I wish they got monies from them. They deserve it, and then I would buy them. Poor Doctors Horrible, being ripped off and all. :(
I think it would also work with just the text and no pictures. Conversation starter either way. Or a conversation stopper. Depends on the conversation.
Nope, korkster. Every idea I come up with sounds lame in my mind. This could possibly end up as one of those things were I never get anything done ;).

I do love those shirts (although, agreed, the ones that look like the official ones? Not nice). That australia one is hilarious. If I had been a girl, I'd have bought it.
GVH, I'm a girl, but I refrain from purchase. Dr. Horrible posted on Twitter not to purchase because they don't see the monies from it. I will be patient for my Australia shirt. *takes deep breath at an attempt to wait patiently*
Ah, I had not heard about that twitter request, korkster. That's enough reason for me not to purchase anything of them.

ETA: on a side-note, I added Dr. Horrible to criticker.com, the movie's entry can be found here, although I did have to e-mail the editor to convince them to add it (they add short movies, but IMDB had this wrongly classified as a tv-series, so they auto-declined my addition request at first). Anyone else frequent that site? It's a fun way to kill some time, ranking massive amounts of movies (I've currently ranked almost 1000 ;))

[ edited by GVH on 2008-08-01 21:02 ]
Wow, that's dangerous, GVH. Dr. H has sucked up most of my life, I really can't commit to anything else at the moment. But I gave Dr. H a 100, though. :)

I was Twittered by Doctor Horrible that they are making more designs for the shirts, which should be out soon, along with the soundtrack. When the new shirts come out, we'll be able to get them at Jinx. Be patient. ;)
Oh hell we've got a long way to go to beat this record.

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