What's next indeed. I say, you've caught the world's attention, at least, those of us with internet. Now is the time to follow through and prove that the internet is a viable media source. After all, wasn't that the main point of the strike? Best of luck!

Madhatter | July 20, 17:36 CET

Edmonton, Atla. Tee hee hee.

NimNams | July 20, 18:04 CET

NimNams, what is funny about Edmonton? Or is it Alberta?

Lioness | July 20, 18:17 CET

I just found the error of saying Edmonton was in Atlanta to be amusing.

NimNams | July 20, 19:18 CET

Lioness, let it go, we have bigger fish to fry;)

Madhatter | July 20, 19:46 CET

Bigger fish like how 87% is not actually 27% more than 60%? If he's already doing 60% then he needs to give almost half again more effort than that. So the title should really read something like 45% More Cheese, Please.

fanbuoyant | July 20, 20:15 CET

*sticks fingers in ears* Math sucks.

barest_smidgen | July 20, 22:27 CET

I dunno, you could see it as if 100% is "max cheese" and 60% [of "max cheese"] was what he was on then you need a further 27% [of "max cheese"] to reach 87% [of "max cheese"].

True though, 87% isn't 27% more than 60%. One of your trains didn't even leave the station barest (which is probably for the best - that way they can never collide, no matter what the time is ;).

Saje | July 20, 23:01 CET

:( I chose my university almost entirely because although they had excessively stringent course requirements of multiple flavors of philosophy, theology, history, literature, social sciences, sciency sciences, languages, etc, the final mandatory was: "2 math OR 1 theatre + 1 fine arts." Score.

Alternately: Shut up. :P

[ edited by barest_smidgen on 2008-07-20 23:12 ]

barest_smidgen | July 20, 23:10 CET

Uh, barest_smidgen, may I ask where it is you went to school? Because I am entirely jealous of you right now, even though I only have just one math course left...

Mrs.BigPileofDust | July 21, 00:02 CET

Boston College. :D

barest_smidgen | July 21, 00:28 CET

I just found the error of saying Edmonton was in Atlanta to be amusing.
NimNams

But the article didn't say Edmonton was in Atla. They correctly say it's in Alta.

Subtle, but there you go ; - )

Ruadh | July 21, 01:37 CET

Man, I can't wait to see his Cheesiest at CC. Then I can ask him how he came up with the additional 27% (of max cheese).

korkster | July 21, 02:26 CET

Aw, c'mon, barest.... math's not so bad. It won't bite you. Honest!

(Plus, the lovely Felicia Day majored in math, and she brought us Good Things this week, so it can't be all bad ;))

ETA: Yikes, changed the 'I' there to 'It'. Obviously, I wouldn't bite barest either, but that should probably go without saying ;)

[ edited by GVH on 2008-07-21 02:47 ]

GVH | July 21, 02:46 CET

Yeah, I don't get the math hate. I also don't get the right brain vs left brain thing. Being bad at math (or just afraid of it) doesn't make you good at stuff with letters. It just makes you bad at math. Balance out both sides of your brain, people.

IrrationaliTV | July 21, 02:50 CET

I like math(s), but I know people who just don't get it. It's not a preference thing either. So the "hate" sometimes just comes from an acute awareness that one isn't preternaturally gifted in that area. (And while, sure, being bad at math(s) doesn't automatically make you better in other areas, I think there is some correlation between left/right-brains and various strengths, isn't there? Shouldn't be an excuse for a bad attitude, of course.)

And I agree that barest's reading is valid, as explained by Saje. Nathan was talking about being asked for an additional 27% of cheese, not expressing the difference as the percentage increase over the original amount.

SoddingNancyTribe | July 21, 03:01 CET

Barbie said math was hard.

b!X | July 21, 03:09 CET

I guess I should just be happy that so many folk are scared of math. My degree in English Literature qualified me to ask "would you like fries with that?" while my masters in finance has proven to be a bit more helpful in career choices. :) I like both and find letters and numbers equally interesting and appealing. They all tell a story and communicate, you just have to know the dialect.

IrrationaliTV | July 21, 03:23 CET

Absolutely, Tamara. As Milo learned from King Azaz and the Mathemagician way back in the day . . . :-)

SoddingNancyTribe | July 21, 03:25 CET

I'm going to report you guys to Captain Hammer.

hacksaway | July 21, 03:44 CET

"The Phantom Tollbooth" was my favorite book when I was eight years old! I loved the Awful Dynne!

floofypooh | July 21, 03:49 CET

Heh, floofy, I still re-read it at least once a year to remind me of (a) life's absurdities, and (b) that it still all depends on how you look at things . . . genius stuff.

SoddingNancyTribe | July 21, 03:53 CET

Yes, SNT, it is.

Throughout the years I've given copies of "The Phantom Tollbooth" to all my nieces and nephews, and then to my own children. It's been a while since I've re-read it; I will have to find my copy and do so right away. Thanks for bringing up a happy memory!

floofypooh | July 21, 04:08 CET

I like math(s), but I know people who just don't get it. It's not a preference thing either. So the "hate" sometimes just comes from an acute awareness that one isn't preternaturally gifted in that area.

I think there may be a genetic talent for maths (bugger the brackets ;) but the antipathy I blame pretty much exclusively on bad teaching (at primary school age usually) - most of us don't have the "talent" gene, we were just shown that numbers are nothing to be scared of at an age when it mattered. People who've had good maths teachers tend to not hate it, even if they're not that great at it (same with science) but a bad teacher can put you off anything.

Saje | July 21, 11:06 CET

Jebus, peeps. Can't I suck at and hate math, and crack a few sillies about it without being a stereotype with a bad attitude and bad schooling? I promise not to grouse at you for the things you're not good at when they are things at which I excel or adore. I know we're making some generalizations here, but I'm still feeling a bit like Penny... not the exact kind of symbolic role model you're looking for = bad woman.

I tested well as a young'un and ended up in an advance track through my public schooling, which included advanced math. I had interesting, enthusiastic teachers who gave me unique opportunities for learning that shouldn't be limited to "gifted" programs (studying & performing Macbeth in the fourth grade, exploring major & minor artists/movements even younger, doing logic puzzles and creative real-life problem-solving with math.) It was a rich, supportive experience, but the number stuff just wasn't for me. Who does that hurt? All women? /rolls eyes.

Me and my english lit degree have a very successful business consulting company; someone else does the books & the billing while I do the strategy, the thinking, the writing and the relationships. I own my own home that I renovated myself, $1,000 at at time. I volunteer a lot and I invest ethically. I wailed on the guy who broke into my bedroom in the middle of the night, roughing me up looking for a good time and sent him fleeing (and bleeding) from my home. I carry no consumer debt and I do buy lots and lots of shoes. Sale/shopping math? I'm an ace. Barbie, indeed. Am i gonna get in trouble in the feminist thread now? Sorry if I'm not the model strong/successful woman you had in mind. Quit-cher judgin'. ;P

barest_smidgen | July 21, 13:58 CET

Maybe it's just "hate" means different things to different people ? To me, using it means an active, vehement dislike as if (in this instance) maths has "done" something to you and since maths is just maths (and therefore can't actually do anything to you ;), that normally indicates bad memories of maths lessons or your teacher or whatever. I didn't enjoy music lessons at school for instance but i'd never say I hate playing music (or even that I hate music lessons) it's just that I don't do it.

For some though, "hate" just means the same as "don't like" and that doesn't need any particularly negative life experience. I don't like broccoli for instance but it's done nothing to me (beyond not being to my taste, that green bastard ;).

And I know there's a big tongue-in-cheeki-con at the end of your post barest but who said it had anything to do with being a woman or being successful ? I've got numerous male friends that're shit at maths too (on one memorable occasion a law graduate mate said "blah blah, all numbers can be represented as fractions" and muggins here, thinking he was kidding said smiling "Well, yeah, except the irrationals". "Nope", he says, "all numbers". There then followed an increasingly heated debate which ended with me 'explaining' "what fucking 'irrational' actually means, you jumped up ambulance chaser". Had to buy him a pint to smooth the waters, that's how far it went ;-).

Saje | July 21, 14:29 CET

Heh, don't worry, barest, I don't think anybody was judging you :). You know how things get here on the black. Someone says they don't like math, someone says math is not so bad and before you know it people are analysing why "people" "in general" might devellop a dislike for math (which, for the record, as Saje pointed out, had nothing gender-specific in it :))

Plus, y'know, us math-likers have usually had a hard time of it, seeing as most people don't like math and tend to not like people who do like math too. At least that usually goes in high school :).

Having said that, there should so be a math-barbie. Blackboard-with-calculation, chalk-in-hand and still dressed incredibly well, obviously. And maybe she could have some stereotypical-but-fashionable glasses ;).

GVH | July 21, 14:37 CET

I know... I took it a little personal-like and applied some of my own context, as I've heard this "Barbie" bit, and the "English majors can't get meaningful jobs," thing before and almost started to believe it. I've been mocked for my "fear" or my "hate" as though it's a lame, girlie, deeply-psychological (Barbie-fied) cop-out and it's a little tiresome.

I take pleasure in doing things really well, so there's certainly a causal relationship between my enjoyment of some things & my degree of natural aptitude. As the sage SNT says, I am often drawn to more typically hateful or scary tasks if they're things I'm good at. From gardening a hideous hardscrabble piece of ground in 100 degree heat, to caring for someone who is suffering in their final hours in a hospice setting. These are places where I fit, and know what to do, and do it well. Thus, I find satisfaction. When I'm forced to do/consider something I am just not good at, it doesn't rate high on my list. (Plus? I hate math.) ;)

And, because you're always well-reasoned, well-spoken, and generally a nice guy, Saje, this one's for you.

ETA: It was the "Barbie" bit that got me on the gender-rail; no offense to b!x intended. Thanks for understanding, GVH. :)

[ edited by barest_smidgen on 2008-07-21 14:58 ]

barest_smidgen | July 21, 14:49 CET

That's the kind of totally unreasonable broccoli you could really get a hate on for. If all broccoli was angry broccoli I might have to re-consider my position of relative neutrality (and ta barest ;).

Saje | July 21, 15:17 CET

I understood Nathan's math here. I think people are overthinking that detail. And criminally underthinking his stint as a karaoke host in college.

Sunfire | July 21, 15:35 CET

OK, I just picked myself up from the floor . . . cheers for that one. Of course, your problem was that you didn't start with "jumped up ambulance chaser." :-) A handful of science PhDs aside, the most innumerate "smart" people I ever encountered were law students.

SoddingNancyTribe | July 21, 16:21 CET

Ah but you can't go nuclear right off the bat SNT ;).

That's been my experience too BTW. Sometimes I wonder if there's something in the legal mindset that's not fond of immutable truth (albeit in a limited sense) but that's very likely reading too much into it.

Saje | July 21, 20:41 CET

And don't forget the asided science nerds here. When I tell people that I like chemistry, they usually go home, take a scalding hot shower, and follow it up with a check-up to make sure that nothing "transferred" on our encounterance.

Maybe Joss will one day help paint science & math into a likeableness. Sure there's Willow, but I want something along the lines of Dr. Horrible/Buffy greatness. Geek-for-the-Good kind of thing.

Saje, maybe they get used to convincing others of their view on things that they forget about actual facts.

korkster | July 21, 22:03 CET

Um, I have a JD, and I believe truth is always relative. Just try to get two witnesses to the same event to tell it the same way. Of course, I'm not actually practicing law any more (preferring to go back to school and get a library science degree so I can hide in the law library and just think about law stuff), so that may actually prove your point . . .

And, korkster, there's no such thing as an actual fact. If you want, I can convince you . . .

beck | July 21, 22:58 CET

I pretty much think the exact opposite, beck. What does it matter what two witnesses say? The truth of any event is what actually happened. The fact that people can't remember it accurately (or even if no-one was there to see it at all) doesn't alter that.

And, yep, I believe in actual facts as well. I'd be interested to hear your side of the argument though.

NotaViking | July 21, 23:42 CET

Oh, gee. See, I was just sorta funnin' with korkster.

But, since you asked . . . It's all in my mind. You, korkster, saje - everyone/everything. I only experience the world in my mind, as do you. The two witnesses only experience the event in their minds. So what "actually happened" is unknowable. Because even an "objective" measurement requires someone's mind to evaluate it. I realize this point of view isn't for everyone, but it works for me. It tends to make me more tolerant of others.

One of my current favorite thoughts: If the universe is infinite, then, by definition, I'm the center of the universe.

'Cuz it's all about me . . . :)

beck | July 22, 00:06 CET

Well, before I did hold off for a while to let korkster reply, but I got bored. ;)

I agree, all we have is our limited human perception which means that the facts are often unknowable (but if I'm not a human being typing on a keyboard right now then something really freaky is going on). For me however, that we'll never know what the truth of a situation was, doesn't change the idea of what truth is. My perception of the truth is not the truth, the truth is the truth (I know that sounds silly ;).

NotaViking | July 22, 01:04 CET

It doesn't sound silly at all, cypher. I just choose to believe that something really freaky is going on. I can't prove I'm right, but I enjoy my delusions. All I have of the truth is my perceptions, so that's what I'm going with. :)

(And I would love to be a theoretical physicist, if it weren't for the damned math!)

beck | July 22, 02:37 CET

Theoretical physics: even more fun than math :). And then there's (theoretical) astrophysics, which is just about as much fun as science can get :)

And: cool, cypher & beck. I have a good friend who - like beck - thinks that truth and reality is relative. Obviously, as an atheïst, scientist and rationalist, I tend to completely disagree, along the same lines as cypher did here. We must've had this argument, oh, about 1,000 times the last 10 years. In the end, I did have to agree though, that truth could be relative. I don't believe so for one single moment, but there's nothing that says it can't be so. So I've decided that I'm a person who believes that by using logic, human ratio and perceptions, we are able to find truth and describe reality in (hopefully) increasingly correct ways. And the fact that our sciencific theories, formed by different observers, are repeatable and in logical correspondence with each other, means that we're at the very least doing something right (and makes a subjective-truth assumption ever more unlikely).

korkster: I get that, yeah. When I was very young, kindergarten young, I wanted to be a paleontologist. Little kids would be going "fireman!", "nurse!", "pilot", "doctor!", when the teacher asked them "what do you want to be when you grow up", and then I'd cut in with "paleontologist" and would end up having to explain to my kindergarten teacher what the hell that even was ;).

I was always pretty lucky though: the school system here in The Netherlands is more split-to-level than it is in the US. So, in a classroom filled with higher-than-avaragely intelligent people, it was accepted (but still not cool) to like science. The Cool Kids[tm] were even my friends, so go figure ;).

But, yeah, even at university - which is the most knowlegde-supportive environment possible - people still tend to look down on science-students from a social standpoint. If you disprove them, they also tend to shift their opinions pretty quickly, but that doesn't mean the prejudice isn't there initially.

wow, that was a whole lot about me... sorry guys!

GVH | July 22, 03:04 CET

Hi guys. I know you won't read this because it's SO last week, but I got distracted with the whole Comic-Con and meeting Joss Whedon (I shook his hand!) thing.

Loved your discussions on facts vs. truth. It's funny, because I was actually arguing for not knowing the actual truth to a person who was religious. And, even though it may seem contradictory, I still stand by it. There are facts, observations that occur. Like, GVH pushes me. It's a fact. There are 40 to 50 witnesses that see the act of GVH pushing me.

However, as to why he pushed me, that can differ in any sort of possibility. Maybe I called GVH a booger-head, which caused him to push me; or maybe GVH pushed me to keep me from getting hit by a car. Different views, different knowledge of what accounts for the pushing, leads to different truths. But it does not excuse the fact that GVH pushed me.

Makes sense to me. Maybe one day someone will be fortunate enough to come across my blathering. But until then, it's just me satisfying my black needs. Thanks. :)

korkster | July 29, 18:33 CET