Horrible Is As Horrible Does.
New Republic's Christopher Orr stirs the pot on Joss Whedon's "compulsive needs" and "deep attraction to the tragic."
[ edited by Whedonage on 2008-07-22 00:18 ]
July 21 2008
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*I appreciate you letting me know someone dies, though.*
*Please note the sarcasm.
Daburcor | July 21, 15:12 CET
dreamlogic | July 21, 15:22 CET
Question, though. Since you haven't watched all of it, have you been viewing Acts 1 & 2 compulsively, or were you waiting for Act 3 before watching them all? I'm doing a study (starting now), that seems to suggest the amount of time people spent watching Dr. Horrible affects their reaction to it. Please let me know your thoughts when you've finished. Thanks.
korkster | July 21, 15:23 CET
demonica | July 21, 15:32 CET
Watching it once-through straight, gives lesser meanings & insight than watching Acts 1 & 2 incessantly, watching Act 3, and then going back and watching Acts 1-3 a couple of more times.
If you haven't checked out the discussion for the layers of this great piece, I would suggest skimming over Act 3's thread (located on side-bar under "The Snitch"). There are many interesting discussions on the takes and devices and layers of Dr. Horrible, and it might change your perception (as it did mine and others).
korkster | July 21, 15:41 CET
Valentyn | July 21, 15:44 CET
Pointy | July 21, 15:54 CET
What I can't quite get my head around is the comment that the only thing worthwhile is thus Captain Hammer's song. Even if you don't like the fact that it ends on a downer,why completely dismiss the other songs and moments. Even the people who didn't seem to like the tragic elements seemed to enjoy their first look at the Evil League of Evil.
rabid | July 21, 16:07 CET
Well, anyone seen West Side Story?
Also, notice how the climax to Part III happened...by chance. Also, remember this musical is bascially a first-issue of a comic book series set to music--and quite well-done.
It's intresting that DH is creating a lot of discussion, first with Penny because she wasn't a "well-developed" character, and now this. I wonder when someone will claim the musical actually reflects the current political climate.
Oops, I think I gave someone a wonderful, awful idea.
impalergeneral | July 21, 16:22 CET
demonica | July 21, 16:27 CET
Anyway, I agree with Orr's critique to an extent. Much of Joss Whedon's greatest strengths lies in his ability to humanize completely fictional and borderline unbelievable characters. But by consistently killing off some of his more human creations, I think there is a risk that, for consistent followers of Joss's work, future deaths may not have the same effect as they otherwise should have....
That being said, I was still shocked by the ending of Dr. Horrible...so I am clearly probably wrong.
Briands84 | July 21, 16:29 CET
I'm having a backlash against the mass media backlash (good one, dreamlogic). I don't believe Joss is infallible so it's not that. I don't know. I thought "Horrible" turned out to be a tragedy with comedic moments. That I could not be sure that that is what it was until the very end only makes it better for me. I didn't think it was a light comedy with a bad, mean ending. At this point, I'm a little befuddled by critiques that revolve around how mean and disappointing the dark turn (that was already presaged in Act 1) is in Act 3. If it makes you feel, isn't that something? The critique I'd find most understandable at this point is finding "Horrible" dull or uninteresting. Fine. If it doesn't move you it doesn't move you.
And death? Not tired in this instance. How on earth is it tired to have death in a show about a super villain? What, trying to get into the Evil League of Evil should be free of consequences? Tired of the death trope? It's the nature of the shows Whedon puts out. Shows about villains and heroes and monsters and vampires and fights with crazed, sick people in space - they shouldn't have deaths? Furthermore, death in the whedonverse has visited all kinds of characters, from the sympathetic to the entirely unsympathetic to all shades inbetween. Not all the humane characters die. It's not a one-note pattern.
I wish this were needless to say, but this is all merely my opinion. We all have different ones (although I'm feeling pretty in sync with Pointy and Valentyn and impalergeneral here, except that I thought the deaths at the end of Macbeth were so damned tired. That Shakespeare, always with the tired old death as plot device thing). You can have your opinion and I'll (happily) have mine. This is not an attack on anyone, including demonica, who agrees with Orr. (I will admit to thinking some snarky-mean thoughts about Orr, but hey, I've never been a fan of his even though like Briands84 I'm a fan of tnr, so I come to his piece with baggage.) It's art. I know that different takes is the way it's supposed to be, no matter how vehemently I may argue my pov. I guess I'm feeling pretty vehement today!
phlebotinin | July 21, 16:38 CET
Harvey Dent turns into the evil Two-Face after the death of his true love, Rachel Dawes. No one seems to be crying foul over that. Why is Joss's decision to kill off Penny any worse than the decision to kill off Rachel? If this is too spoilery to discuss here, I understand if I must remove the comment.
[ edited by floofypooh on 2008-07-22 01:47 ]
floofypooh | July 21, 16:42 CET
Briands84 | July 21, 16:55 CET
NurseBobbi | July 21, 16:55 CET
I agreed with that statement as I read it and then came back to it a few seconds later to re-think it. I'm pretty sure that since I've been sucker punched at least 6 or 7 times by Joss' stories and each time, I never see it coming. And I think the reason I never see it coming is because he waits until the story reaches a fever pitch. Then he raises the stakes and drops the hammer. I assume I'll continue to enjoy the pathos. Its hard to shock me, so when he does it so often, you know he's doing it right.
As mentioned by others, tragedy is part of many wonderful pieces. My personal favorite tragedy is La Boheme. While the death at the end isn't a sucker punch (it takes her like 40 minutes to die), its necessary to make the story complete.
I loved Dr. Horrible. I hope it pulls in outsiders to check out the 'verse.
alexreager | July 21, 17:06 CET
I loved all acts the first go-around and loved them even more with subsequent viewings. I especially loved watching them in one fell swoop, start to finish. I've done that once. It works great that way but I found it also worked great in separate installments.
phlebotinin | July 21, 17:08 CET
Admittedly I didn't see it coming my own self, I thought that I was watching a light romantic comedy that would end in a kiss (I hadn't realized it was going to be a tragedy). But then Joss always manages to surprise me, it doesn't mean I'm disappointed (I'd be disappointed if he didn't surprise me).
embers | July 21, 17:14 CET
I was gut-punched with Penny's death, to be sure. Here we were all expecting a light musical comedy, and we got... this. But in reflection, it is the best, most powerful way to end the story. Dr. Horrible may be a likable guy, but he's still aspiring to be evil. He starts out as misguided in his attempts to change things (and maybe rule them a little) by joining the Evil League of Evil, but he's not really a bad guy. He doesn't want to actually kill anyone.
Now Penny is dead, and everything he cared about with it. He succeeded in his goal of joining the League, but his victory is tainted with his loss. Now he has no more reason to cling to his humanity, and can rise to become a true villain, embracing all that is dark within him. If that isn't a great origin story, I don't know what is!
AnotherFireflyfan | July 21, 17:15 CET
NurseBobbi | July 21, 17:16 CET
kalia | July 21, 17:25 CET
MindPieces | July 21, 17:35 CET
The thing about a true Greek Tragedy is catharsis.. And I doubt many got that from this drama. Don't get me wrong. The more I watch it, the more I appreciate it. But to go from such comedy to such despair in 3 short acts is hard.
Lioness | July 21, 17:44 CET
MindPieces, it fascinates me that you felt nothing in "Horrible." Although the death at the end of Horrible moved me a lot, I can't say I was terribly moved by the Buffy season 8 thing. I'm with you on that. I sort of ascribe that to my not being as emotionally drawn into comics as I can get with other art forms. But maybe...I don't know.
phlebotinin | July 21, 17:57 CET
Nebula1400 | July 21, 18:00 CET
It's odd. I have not been reading this thread, but I was thinking about just this thing on the way home, and realizing that it's as if people are mad that they weren't told ahead of time what to expect.
Maybe it's me, but I tend towards the side of things where I appreciate not knowing what to expect up front. It's freaking rare these days.
@theonetruebix | July 21, 18:04 CET
Not to say at all that everyone who disliked the ending disliked it only for that reason - clearly others did see it coming. Just to say - I agree with bix.
kalia | July 21, 18:18 CET
If he were writing family dramas or sitcoms, then yeah, I'd be a little more upset that death happens as frequently as it does. But considering the places these characters live, well... not so much. I cheer a little inside everytime one of them walks away (mostly) unscathed.
NYPinTA | July 21, 18:33 CET
It didn't make me cry or anything (definitely didn't make me sob for hours like Becoming 1 and 2 and Doyle's death did), but it served its purpose .... I think it was a catalyst for Billy to become Dr. Horrible, and I don't think he did it because he really, truly wanted to be evil. I think Penny could've turned him away from it if she had lived. But because of her death, he dove into evil to escape the pain of it, he made himself numb. Who can't relate to that on some level? After a bad breakup, many of us dive straight into a pint of chunky monkey or new york super fudge chunk, right? And some of us cannonball into lots and lots of alcohol, right? Dr. Horrible dives into his work, into the thing that made him a monster. It's irony to me that he embraces the thing that drove him to commit to actions that killed the woman of his dreams.
the ninja report | July 21, 18:48 CET
ETA: look at me with the redundancy.
[ edited by NYPinTA on 2008-07-22 04:07 ]
NYPinTA | July 21, 18:54 CET
[ edited by sleeper on 2008-07-22 03:59 ]
sleeper | July 21, 18:58 CET
kishi | July 21, 20:32 CET
On the other end of the scale, sometimes Joss's death is not about shock value or killing off a humane character to make a point. Many of his deaths are about redemption. Redemption, or forgiveness, is a base human need. To make up for what wrong we've done. The ultimate sacrifice is one's own life, and therefore the only ending for redemptive characters in Joss's world, where they have most likely killed hundreds of innocents, either through action (Angel, Spike, Book) or inaction (Doyle). And these are rarely a punch in the face. They are in fact very obvious, but because we see ourselves in the characters, we choose to pretend it's not going to happen this time. That we can get off without having to pay a price.
I think this is why Dr. Horrible's ending is being poorly received. The first 2 acts make us relate with the villain of the piece more than we ever relate to superheroes. Superheroes are the popular, perfect ones. Villains are nerds, scientists. Then, despite the musical comedy ending we expect but know we do not deserve (Penny turns out to be another supervillain, or Penny turns Dr. Horrible away from Evil), we get the ending we deserve. Because we shouldn't be allowed to think we can try to touch Evil and walk away clean. Someone we love will suffer.
PuppetDoug | July 21, 21:15 CET
No thanks.
Also we're talking about over two hundred and fifty episodes of TV here. It's not like a major character died every week. Dr Horrible was a self-contained story, ALL the big events had to happen in that forty minutes.
[ edited by zz9 on 2008-07-22 06:48 ]
zz9 | July 21, 21:17 CET
I think you're very correct here.
@theonetruebix | July 21, 21:22 CET
But it's a case of us having seen this before. It's the repetition, the feeling that Whedon keeps going back to this particular tool. Killing relationships (and sometimes the participants) my rile up the fans but it's also a reliable source of drama, and, well, it's starting to look like a crutch.
I don't think DR. HORRIBLE in particular is any the worse for it. The structure works, and there's foreshadowing of something going wrong. But it is possible to do things differently and still have good drama, even conveying existentialism in the process, and I'd like to see Whedon stretch a little in that regard.
Evan Waters | July 21, 23:01 CET
When Tara died, it was like having a rug pulled out from under me. When Penny died, I wasn't all that surprised. However, I didn't sit there and go, "Oh man, that sucked because it was so predictable." I still felt for a sympathetic character.
I was going to say here that Joss may have to adapt his game a bit to stay fresh, but that the author of this article is a bit premature. I'm not sure if that's true, either, now that I really think about it.
As people have said, the format of Dr. Horrible is part of the issue. In a series like Dollhouse, even if we know someone is going to die, one can't help but attach to the characters over a period of time. There's still drama because we're asking, "When will someone die?" With something as short as Dr. Horrible, and with only 3 characters, as soon as a deathray comes into play, and we know it's the end, death starts to feel less like drama and more like a manipulative magic trick...
Now I'm starting to ramble. All I'm trying to say is, Joss changed Hollywood storytelling. I'm not sure anymore if he can just keep truckin as is or if he's eventually going to have to start reinventing himself like Bob Dylan. Time will tell. He's not at that moment right now, but the time will come, and I think this issue will be one of the issues he'll have to confront.
Not that he hasn't constantly evolved as an artist, just sometimes you reach moments where you have to undergo more drastic reexaminations of everything you do. Those that fail to do that become Woody Allen or Oliver Stone. The Coen brothers, I think, are really interesting because they seemed to hit a wall like that, make several bad films, and then push through it.
Celluloid Novelist | July 22, 02:39 CET
Original I was disappointed / upset at what seemed an abruptly dark turn in Act III -- not just the death but the vicious, scathing attitude of Dr. Horrible himself.
But when I reviewed Acts I and II, I was reminded that they showed him progressing in this direction very clearly. The (read: "my") problem was that Acts I and II included so many FUN and FUNNY elements that my brain had sort of dismissed the darker elements as just temporary rants rather than truly tragic turns of the character. So now -- viewing all three Acts together -- I think the full arc is consistent.
(But I miss the funny in Act III !)
SteveP | July 22, 02:40 CET
Except that's not always true. Joyce died because of a brain anuerism, not because of the world she lived in. Doyle was half demon- part of that world. Same with Cordelia. Anya was most definitly part of that world. Was for over a 1000 years. Hardly an innocent. Tara was a witch, also part of that world. (Just not as powerful as Willow.) Kind,yes, but so aren't many characters that don't end up dead. Wesely stopped being innocent a long time before he died. And Jenny Carpenter was also a witch. Part of the clan that cursed Angel, then took it back and let Angelus loose. Hardly an innocent. There really isn't one person on the show that was completely innoncent and didn't take on parts of the world they lived in before circumstances of living in that world killed them. Not that I am saying there isn't any kind of pattern, but the one I see is completely logical and does not feel like a trick or an overused plot device when it happens.
NYPinTA | July 22, 04:26 CET
Yes Billy was a sympathetic character, but behind all the charm and the comedy...well he was slightly psychotic. He talked about 'cutting off the head' of the human race, ruling the world...stalked Penny and was willing to kill Captain Hammer to get into the ELoE.He wasn't a sane man. The Dr Horrible part of his psyche was taking over from the very beginning.
As I said in another thread - this is a supervillain origin story. There *had* to be a death for him to get into the League...he thought it would be Hammer's...but it ended up being the woman he loved(or was obsessed with...either or). And the tragedy is that he used that death for his own ends. He got into the League..got everything he wanted. Or did he judging by the last shot.
People would be complaining if it was a happy ending...so you can't please everyone. The Billy side and the Horrible side were always going to be in competition. Horrible won out.
angeliclestat | July 22, 04:47 CET
Speak for yourself, New Republic guy. For me, ending a (insert description) on a note of "and they all lived happily ever after" would be "something short of entirely satisfying".
Obviously, Christopher Orr is not familiar with that most marvelous of all Joss-quotes, "I don't want to make safe shows about lawyers. I want to invade people's dreams". Or he doesn't get that a very large number - dare I say a big honkin' majority - of Joss's loyal fan base, wants exactly that, to have our dreams (psyches) invaded.
Some really great posts on this thread, I love the points made by phlebotinin, NYPinTA and zz9.
But my "damn, I wish I'd written that post" award goes to PuppetDoug.
That was just eloquent. And elegant. :)
[ edited by Shey on 2008-07-22 13:54 ]
Shey | July 22, 04:53 CET
I'm in love with the angst though always, so while a happy ending would have been enjoyable, I live and breath for the tragedy in film, books and tv. The last couple minutes of the whole series were my favorite to watch.
But that's just me!
[ edited by meimei42 on 2008-07-22 14:44 ]
meimei42 | July 22, 05:42 CET
demonica
As do I. And korkster, I did read the monster Act III thread, but it didn't change my opinion either.
library hooligan | July 22, 06:23 CET
As was expressed in the Act III thread, there is a shift of shock and hurt (a bit of disappointment) in the first 60 comments or so, to more... clarity after seeing the show in all of the show as a show.
Both demonica & phlebotinin watched Acts 1 & 2 repeatedly before Act 3. This gave them time to get attached to the characters and to allow the "comedy" of the show sink in. (As did I, BTW.)
Upon viewing Act 3 (only), you only see the climax of the piece and what seems to be a sudden shift in the story-telling.
Without seeing DHSAB as a whole, the viewer may get "wiped out" and feel "painful" about the shock of seeing a tragedy where they once saw a comedy.
When you watch the acts in "one fell swoop", you can actually see the foreshadowing of the piece, as mentioned above in this thread. From Captain Hammer tossing Penny into the garbage (little regard for public safety) to Dr. Horrible turning his back on a "fellow Laundromat person" to work on his schemes... you can actually see that there were subtle hints that the end would be as it is.
embers confirms the foreshadowing, but was also "didn't see it coming" and "I thought that I was watching a light romantic comedy that would end in a kiss (I hadn't realized it was going to be a tragedy)". I don't know how many times embers watched Acts 1 or 2 before Act 3, or if they were watched as one whole piece, but as was expressed in the Act 3 thread, the shock of being surprised (as stated eloquently by bix) threw a lot of people off.
AnotherFireflyfan also watched Acts 1 & 2 and was absorbed before watching Act 3, which lead to the "gut-punched with Penny's death". It was the "expecting a light musical comedy" and getting something else in return that is throwing some viewers.
Where the viewers seem to disagree on the ending seems to correlate to the frequency of watching Acts 1 & 2 before watching Act 3. The more 1 & 2 were seen, the more the ripped out heart feeling sunk in. The less they were seen, the more detached one is from the piece and may see the "Joss trick". By seeing them as a whole, you are neither gut-wrenched or detached, but view the story with all of it's foreshadowing and hints that make the show great.
As Lioness said, The more I watch it, the more I appreciate it.
I think SteveP said it nicely:
Original I was disappointed / upset at what seemed an abruptly dark turn in Act III -- not just the death but the vicious, scathing attitude of Dr. Horrible himself.
But when I reviewed Acts I and II, I was reminded that they showed him progressing in this direction very clearly. The (read: "my") problem was that Acts I and II included so many FUN and FUNNY elements that my brain had sort of dismissed the darker elements as just temporary rants rather than truly tragic turns of the character. So now -- viewing all three Acts together -- I think the full arc is consistent.
(But I miss the funny in Act III !)
SteveP | July 22, 11:40 CET
By looking at the layers, and seeing the hints (or evidence), it gives you a richer view of DHSAB. And, I too, find it hard to laugh as I once did, but I'm pretty sure it's because I know what's going to happen now.
MindPieces & library hooligan, I know you agree with the author on this, and you may or may not have read Act 3's thread, but I don't know where to include you in the poll because I don't know how you viewed DHSAB... or if you've re-watched them since viewing. As mentioned before, since you know the ending you can actually pick out the pieces and moments that build up to the downfall... which is different from Joss' usual un-expected deaths (which may be argued that they aren't so un-expected). Of all of his deaths, I would say that Penny's is very different from the ones he's done before, as mentioned in the interview posted yesterday(?).
And, Shey, I would have to say that Joss was very successful in:
"I don't want to make safe shows about lawyers. I want to invade people's dreams".
I know mine is... I just can't get that guy (Joss) or Dr. Horrible out of my head! Someone maternal! :)
korkster | July 22, 08:09 CET
I know that you deal with rhymes and possibly Shakespeare. And, I haven't done the work yet, but I was wondering if anyone's has analyzed the rhythm of the songs themselves? It seems the patterns of the verses shift (as expected) when a character takes on a new hurdle... or, for example, the defeat of Billy & the emergence of Dr. Horrible. In that last song, does the rhyming pattern change? I was just curious. :)
korkster | July 22, 08:13 CET
library hooligan | July 22, 08:51 CET
And, no, the polls aren't for everyone. I would be interested if you liked Acts 1 & 2 more before watching Act 3, and now just can't get into them.
ETA: Spelling.
[ edited by korkster on 2008-07-22 18:18 ]
korkster | July 22, 09:17 CET
"I'm not an adult! I don't want to create responsible shows with lawyers in them. I want to invade people's dreams."
It's from a 2002 NY Times interview.
The original point is still accurate though. Joss likes to drag people out of their comfort zone, and that makes many fans... uncomfortable.
ETA: correct origin of quote
[ edited by AlanD on 2008-07-22 18:45 ]
AlanD | July 22, 09:28 CET
library hooligan | July 22, 09:31 CET
Because people like to know what Viewing Chip to insert into their heads prior to watching something. The one with all the pre-programmed responses to appropriate stimuli for the genre at hand.
Unfortunately for that behavior, Joss occasionally likes to blow the circuits in those chips by not playing by those proper patterns.
@theonetruebix | July 22, 09:52 CET
You're not insignificant, lh. Everything's a scatter plot, and it just demonstrates that nothing is as nice and neat as we pretend it to be.
I think you have the same problem I do with the piece. I was infatuated with Acts 1 & 2 also, did the whole works, and it was my "lifter" to an utter dismal week. And then to finally get to the moment of climatic tragedy, destroyed a small bit of me. Definitely packed a gut-wrenched, heart-ripped, numbing sort of feel. I felt sick afterwards. And, to be honest, it took me a couple of hours before I could watch it again.
As you say, rewatching Act 3 and then all of it in it's entirity (?) made me appreciate it more. I got all of the subtle messages that I was blind to when I first began the trek. I refer to my feelings to DSAH unfolding as it did as such:
It's like going to a party with your best friend, entering him/her into a beer drinking contest, and cheering/encouraging them on to chug the beers. Then your friend dies. And you encourage him/her.
That's how I felt about it (& still kind of do). It's not really that Penny died gave me such an unhappy... but that I push my friend Billy (from Acts 1 & 2- very strong relationship) to kill her. And now he's severly unhappy. And it's partly my fault for not stopping him.
Where was I? Oh. Yes.
After reviewing and participating in the Act 3 thread, and seeing how the actors/reviewers watched the show, they watched it once-though, all the way. To them, the hints weren't blindly ignored (like I did). I also got to discover the many layers to DHSAB, which is comforting in a way.
I definitely appreciate it more, and I like it more because it's not the writers' fault that I ignored the signs (I did that on my own). Because of this experience and analysis, DHSAB is now my favorite show and literary work- very well done and there's a lot to play with... as a whole. But it also carries another meaning for those of us who watched it act by act, the sucker-punch of blind happiness, if you will, that no one else will get. Ever.
Can I laugh as much as I did when I was still innocent to Act 3? No, but that's what makes me love it more.
Was this helpful, in any way? I'm trying to explain, but I've never been good at using words.
korkster | July 22, 09:56 CET
library hooligan | July 22, 18:31 CET
Now that you mention it... this explains the foreshadowing of Moist's date with "Bait & Switch"... "I kinda thought I was supposed to end up with Bait, but…"
I hear ya.
Whedonage | July 22, 09:57 CET
meimei42 | July 22, 09:58 CET
library hooligan | July 22, 10:12 CET
In terms of the article - Joss has gained a reputation for character deaths and I agree that from a certain perspective it could appear to be done simply to shock the audience. Seen in context however I think all the deaths do add a lot to the story being told and the fact that we get so upset by the deaths shows how well Joss and co build these characters.
ETA: fixed spelling
[ edited by DreamDancer on 2008-07-22 19:18 ]
DreamDancer | July 22, 10:18 CET
korkster | July 22, 10:33 CET
aimstomisbehave | July 22, 11:31 CET
Pointy | July 22, 12:29 CET
korkster | July 22, 13:22 CET
Great post, PuppetDoug, like Shey said!
Pointy | July 22, 19:14 CET