Poor Dawnie - BtVS - Whedonesque.com

It's a shame Dawn constantly gets so much flack. When you consider how Buffy treated her as a sister, we're lucky she didn't become a crazed axe-murderer. Dawn for the win.

patxshand | August 15, 19:32 CET

Bonus points to the list for including Ross. He's the real reason I despised Friends.

But come on. Dawn was a teenager. Teenagers are annoying, it happens. And I thought she was getting cooler later on- her and Xander could have done a whole proto-New Watchers thing. And Sookie? I liked Sookie.

kishi | August 15, 19:34 CET

You know, I just re-watched season five this week. Has anyone ever noticed that Buffy has more moments of whininess in the season of Dawn's introduction than Dawn herself does?

They say she's "obnoxious and incapable" and "dumb" and yet in season five alone she had the idea on how Buffy could find the military so Riley's life could be saved, and she beat the Queller off of her Mom and locked down the room until Buffy could get to them.

The sad reality is that the Dawn haters can only have their way if they, and we, willfully ignore large tracts of Dawn's personality and behavior.

ETA that at Comic-Con I came up with a new response to the Dawn hate during OMWF. Since the entire situation in fact was Xander's fault, when he starts going "I didn't know what was going to happen..." I yelled "Shut up, Xander!"

The Dawn haters didn't laugh.

[ edited by theonetruebix on 2008-08-15 19:40 ]

b!X | August 15, 19:35 CET

Let's not forget how she made some of the most moronic and misguided decisions ever just because she didn't get her way.

What is this referring to?

hacksaway | August 15, 19:42 CET

It's all jealously. Everyone knows that little sister's grow up to be taller, smarter, funnier, and sexier than their older sisters. Tis a fact. Honest.

;)

But, Dawn did bug me at first. But then, so didn't Anya. And Wesley. And they ended up as my favorites.

NYPinTA | August 15, 19:48 CET

I came into things late, so I never understood the Dawn hate. And frankly, still don't. To be perfectly honest, I had more issues with Buffy in the last three seasons than I ever had with Dawn. And patxshand is right, Dawn should be a hell of a lot worse off than she is, all things considered.

And for those still harboring Dawn hateage, I implore you to watch "Potential" again. Those last few scenes were golden, as far as I'm concerned.

deepgirl187 | August 15, 19:51 CET

I think it was primarily the "Get out, get out, GET OUT!!!" ;)

Which IMO is completely cancelled out by "Anchovies, anchovies, you're so delicious! I love you more than all the other fishes!"

hacksaway | August 15, 20:03 CET

Dawn was annoying at times ("Get out, get out, get out" obviously being her at max annoyingness) but I don't get the hate because of course, she was specifically written to be the annoying little sister.

Must admit, it sometimes puzzles me when people can't take a step back. Sure, love the show by all means, every one of us does, but it is still a show, yeah ? Characters aren't accidents, they're on purpose.

Saje | August 15, 20:05 CET

I hate anchovies. But the anchovy poem is the tops.

b!X | August 15, 20:07 CET

Really, if you've had a 15 yr. old little sister, then you know that Dawn was not too far off the mark. I've never understood all the Dawn hate myself. Every character had their moments of being annoying and/or less than perfect... I think that's why we all love the show so much.

I also disagree with Sookie. Taylor was the most annoying charater in Stars Hollow IMHO.

jls730 | August 15, 20:21 CET

Dawn should be nowhere near that list. Ross is an excellent choice though.

ETA:
And for those still harboring Dawn hateage, I implore you to watch "Potential" again. Those last few scenes were golden, as far as I'm concerned.

Best. Fight scene. Ever.

[ edited by Sunfire on 2008-08-15 20:30 ]

Sunfire | August 15, 20:29 CET

I don't get the Dawn hate either. And as Deepgirl said - Buffy was much more whiny than Dawn in the last seasons. Dawn was a teenaged girl. She was normal, hormonal and angsty, just like she should have been.

And please - if we're talking annoying - Connor. Now he was annoying.

goth_huntress | August 15, 20:30 CET

Saje, you mean, we are supposed to hate thy Kate of Lost?

I used to find Dawn and Connor annoying... but then my sister became a teenager and I got it. Ah, the many tantrums and irrational behaviour I withstood (and at the rare times handled) thanks to Joss and the writer's wisdom.

Now, Kate... sorry, I got to agree with the article (but, add a pinch of clingy overbearing Jack and Prison Break’s monotone mood Michael in too for good measure) *ponders* But, mystery of mysteries, is it the writing to blame or the actors? Hmm.

[ edited by Mirage on 2008-08-15 20:33 ]

Mirage | August 15, 20:32 CET

But, mystery of mysteries, is it the writing to blame or the actors?

Either way though, it's not the character.

Saje | August 15, 20:35 CET

I thought Dawn was annoying in season six, because she was only all whiny and crying that season. I liked her very much in season five and seven though, especially in season seven.

Donnie | August 15, 20:42 CET

Wow, I think TWOP was a little harsh in their assessment of Dawn. We really should cut the poor girl some slack. I mean, first, she finds out that she is a mystical key, that her entire existence, all her memories, have been made up. Then, just as she is starting to overcome that, her mother dies, followed by her sister. I would say that given all Dawn has gone through she should have been acting a lot worse! Lord knows I probably would have been if I were in her shoes. I think it is a real testament to Dawn’s character that she managed to come through all of this relatively unscathed, and that for the most part, she became a well-adjusted young woman (ok, centaur not withstanding, lol). I think that instead of condemning Dawn we should realize that despite everything, she was a typical teenager.

Jossfan_21 | August 15, 20:44 CET

Dawn is SO much more annoying than Ross. Ha!

Daburcor | August 15, 20:49 CET

And please - if we're talking annoying - Connor. Now he was annoying.

Connor took a little time for me to like, much like Riley. I think they largely redeemed Connor by the last season of Angel.

I think that instead of condemning Dawn we should realize that despite everything, she was a typical teenager.

Maybe that's why Dawn gets so much flak; because she is a typical teenager. After four seasons of Buffy, Xander, and Willow, perhaps some people weren't ready to deal with a reality check.

deepgirl187 | August 15, 20:53 CET

I think the TWOP folks were not at all big fans of the last few seasons of Buffy in general.

I love this, Saje:

Characters aren't accidents, they're on purpose.

Hee hee. And, yes!

While of course everybody can hate whichever on-purpose characters they hate, I agree that Dawn gets a bad rap. I do think she was written, initially, as if she was a younger child than she was, and that was occasionally a little jarring, but eventually she just became one of our beloved, peculiar, messed-up scoobs. I've never been to one of the singalongs, but I cringed when I heard that people were yelling "shut up Dawn!" My response was this (meant in good fun, and no offense to Dawn-haters ;)):

Dawn Speaks out at the Singalong

Try to remember how it felt to be
a kid in high school--it sucked, right? I mean
who's selfless and mature at age fifteen?
And then try to imagine: Suddenly
you find out in those harsh, hormonal years
that you aren't human. You aren't even real.
You are a toy for some bitch-god--you'd feel
all messed up too, and when you dry your tears
and try to deal, your mother dies, and all
your memories of her are false. What then?
Your sister dies to save the world (again)
and it's your fault--for you she took the fall.
So pardon me for whining. Why don't you
Shut up yourselves 'til you've been through it too.

catherine | August 15, 21:01 CET

I've never understood the Dawn hate. She isn't my favorite character by a long shot, and the "Get out, get out, get out" is annoying, but if I disliked her as much as some people did/do, then why watch the show? I didn't watch any of the other shows on that list, and in some cases it was because of the annoying character listed. But the Dawn-hating doesn't make much sense to me, and, frankly, it's because of the Dawn-hating shut-ups that I have never tried to attend any of the public screenings of OMWF. When the fans are more annoying than the character they think is annoying, where does that get fun?

palehorse | August 15, 21:03 CET

Jossfan, you took the words right out of my mouth. I would only have added that after her mother died, Dawn's father was completely incommunicado, AWOL even. Buffy was all the family she had. Then, when Buffy returned, she was distant and more worried about "the sex" then spending time with her little sister. Dawn is a better person than I am.

Randy Giles | August 15, 21:04 CET

Actually, it's a compliment of sorts to the real life person and actress Michelle Trachtenberg that her character brings soo much hate/love.

Go Michelle!

And I still don't like Dawn in the tv-series, do sorta like her in S8, despite her various forms *lol*

[ edited by Krusher on 2008-08-15 21:09 ]

Krusher | August 15, 21:08 CET

When the fans are more annoying than the character they think is annoying, where does that get fun?

This would make a good, although extraordinarily obscure, t-shirt. It'd work for wearing to OMWF sing-alongs, tho.

b!X | August 15, 21:11 CET

I think Dawnie is coming into her own in Season 8. Yeah, it's not TV, but if it was and they had the budget, I could totally see Michelle Trachtenberg portraying a centaur, with her long, flowing hair tastefully taped to her... to, um, her... ummmmmm...

Sorry. I'm back! Just had a Eurotrip "deleted-scene" flashback.

quantumac | August 15, 21:13 CET

Dawn should be nowhere near that list. Ross is an excellent choice though.

I completely agree with the dislike of Ross. So many people love 'Friends,' but I actually despise it, and Ross is definitely one of the reasons why.

And please - if we're talking annoying - Connor. Now he was annoying.

I completely agree that Connor should be on this list. I couldn't stand him in seasons 3 and 4 (4 especially). Only when he came back in season 5 did I start to like him.

Jossfan_21 | August 15, 21:17 CET

Apparently Wesley Crusher is no longer di rigeur for these lists. I'm torn between happiness for Wil Wheaton and despair that the fabric of the universe is disintegrating before my eyes.

I'm an only child so I never was able to relate to the whole annoying younger sister thing, but even so, I never hated Dawn the way some fans seem to. Even so, I will admit to relishing the "Shut up, Dawn!" parts of the OMWF sing-along (this may be due to the actress playing her in the onstage portion coming up to me while I was on line, asking if I was a watcher, and then kicking me in the shin).

[ edited by Roland the Headless Thompson Gunner on 2008-08-15 21:31 ]

Roland the Headless Thompson Gunner | August 15, 21:29 CET

quantumac wrote:

I could totally see Michelle Trachtenberg portraying a centaur, with her long, flowing hair tastefully taped to her... to, um, her... ummmmmm...

S8 should be made into a tv-series. Horsepower enough for the CGI and it's not that expensive anymore.

pun intended :P

Krusher | August 15, 21:31 CET

...this may be due to the actress playing her in the onstage portion coming up to me while I was on line, asking if I was a watcher, and then kicking me in the shin...

Erm. Seriously?

b!X | August 15, 21:32 CET

I really liked Dawn in Season 5. I really liked the way the themes of family that emerged from her and Buffy's relationship*; in fact, I consider the Buffy-Dawn dynamic to be my single favorite in the Buffyverse. I don't really like what they did with the character S6 and S7, i.e. nothing. Seems like a profound waste to me.

Just my $.02.

*Obvious addendum: by relationship, I refer to any relationship, not just romantic ones.

sukrit | August 15, 21:36 CET

Sookie? Ally McBeal? Fran Fine? I mean. Seriously. How can u hate Fran Fine???

I do find Dawn annoying (not AS annoying as Connor, but still annoying). And I do (did?) hate her. But it's like... I love to hate her. I love that they did this character that it's one of the good guys, but they did it for us NOT to like.

maxsummers | August 15, 21:41 CET

bix:

Erm. Seriously?

Seriously; she pretty much threw herself into the part. It was all good fun, though. It's not like she crippled me, just decided to spontaneously reinact Dawn responding to Buffy having Xander drive her to safety. Everyone I was with found it amusing, anyway.

And I guess I did, too...

After a fashion.

shut up, Dawn

[ edited by Roland the Headless Thompson Gunner on 2008-08-15 21:46 ]

Roland the Headless Thompson Gunner | August 15, 21:44 CET

I completely agree with the dislike of Ross. So many people love 'Friends,' but I actually despise it, and Ross is definitely one of the reasons why.

Every paleontology reference he makes breaks my heart.

Sunfire | August 15, 21:45 CET

I actually LOVE Ross. He's my favorite!

I HATE Phoebe. And I don't get why people LOVE her.

maxsummers | August 15, 21:48 CET

Oh, quit picking on little Dawnie. Besides, her big sister can totally kick ass. I mean, really.

Madhatter | August 15, 21:51 CET

While Dawn could be annoying, I can think of dozens of other TV characters who leave her in the dust when it comes to annoyingness. Kim Bauer on 24, who has made an impossible number of stupid decisions (from accepting rides from strangers to stealing her boss's car with a corpse in the trunk to hiding out in the wilderness with a crazy guy in a bomb shelter to claiming her father isn't taking time to talk about her feelings while he's busy making a nuclear bomb not blow up half the state) has to top that list. I keep expecting to see her running with scissors or sticking a fork in a toaster while in the bathtub. Any "character" ever on most reality shows, as well, beats the pants off Dawn in annoying. Frankly, I found Andrew or Kennedy more annoying than Dawn by a mile.

Meltha | August 15, 22:03 CET

Dawn is annoying, but it makes total sense that she is. She's whiny and melodramatic and angsty and self-centered and acts like the world is against her. She acts like a teenager, and Great Scott, that's exactly what she is! Go figure. She does grow up a lot in season seven, as teenagers tend to do.

Also, I never had a problem with Ross. Phoebe still annoys me in reruns though. Joey as well, to a certain extent, though he at least makes me laugh more than Phoebe does.

Nolan | August 15, 22:10 CET

I've never felt the Dawn hating because it was obvious to me that she was written to be a burden for Buffy, and the fans (identifying w/Buffy) wished Dawn wasn't around.... Pretty much poor Dawn was nothing more than a plot devise throughout seasons five and six. Dawn is redeemed (and given some life of her own) in Season 7, but by then the fans were annoyed at anyone and everything that got in the way of the core four getting all the screen time (except for the Spike fans who wanted HIM to get all the screen time).

But the thing that surprised me was that after Joss complained about everyone yelling 'Shut up Dawn' in the OMWF sing along, he went ahead and wrote Dawn in the BtVS S8 comic book so that she does nothing but whine (or whinny) ! Okay, yeah she did get to do some major stomping in Tokyo, but even then the Meta-Dawn was making fun of her the whole time.

embers | August 15, 22:40 CET

The first time I watched the series, I was highly annoyed by Dawn, and I think I projected a lot of the frustration that other characters (Buffy) were having onto her. Watching it later, I actually start to find Buffy herself more annoying. She's so bossy and self-righteous.

Septimus | August 15, 22:46 CET

I dislike Dawn in seasons five and six, but she's honestly one of my favorite characters in season seven. It's nice to watch her become... well, kinda like Willow circa 1-3, but with self-confidence. I like that a lot. In particular her actions in the episode Potential. As Xander so kindly points out to us at the end.

sumogrip | August 15, 22:50 CET

I am both a younger and older sister, and I have sympathy for both sibling roles, but I never found Dawn anything more than a bright, passionate teenager in extraordinary circumstances - but then, I like to say "Get out, get out, get out!" whenever possible, myself.

Out of the mouth of Joss:

"And thanks to all the peeps at the Singalong. Marty and I had a crazy good time, even if we felt bad for poor defenseless Dawnie. (Every time you tell her to shut up, remember who wrote what she’s saying.) (That’s right. The kid’s with me.)"

Re: Friends: I thought Phoebe kicked righteous ass - I loved her combination of cluelessness, fearlessness, wit, oddity and compassion (and I think Lisa Kudrow is boffo.) I named one of my cats "Phoebe" after her - which, believe me, was not the kindof thing I'd ever done before...

I can still laugh when I picture Phoebe's reaction to the doll massacre after the Horrendus Dollhouse Fire Incident. At our house, we still say, "Oh, no" in imitation of the special Way of the Phoebe.

Oh, and Our Jossir liked her, too. I'm just sayin':

"8) Lisa Kudrow as Phoebe on Friends. Yeah, backlash etc, but that was one of the best written shows ever for a spell and when it was she could not miss. Really unique."

(BTW, I keep starting to edit my posts down to 140 characters and am so relieved when I remember I don't have to.)

QuoterGal | August 15, 23:00 CET

Me too, QuoterGal. I like your comments lengthy. :)

korkster | August 15, 23:51 CET

I actually liked Dawn and Connor right from the start, but if siblings are anything to go by I do have a younger brother and sister so perhaps that's something to do with it. The Dawn/Buffy dynamic of S5 in particular reminds me of myself and my sister. If they were trying to make them annoying then... oops? Didn't work on me!

Leaf | August 16, 00:05 CET

that list is so so so so so off...

EX | August 16, 00:06 CET

I have a younger sister. Dawn was very accurate. ;-)

pat32082 | August 16, 00:08 CET

Dawn is supposed to be what she is. There was a Dawniness about her. She's a teenager who dealt with a lot of shit. In fact, she handled it a whole lot better than I would have. I would have huddled in a corner in a ball, sucking my thumb. :D

crazygolfa | August 16, 00:19 CET

Ith i negoo soo yaor um?

*removes thumb*

Is it not good to suck your thumb?

korkster | August 16, 00:54 CET

Dawn is the reason Season 5 worked. Period. And total agreement with everyone and their "she acted like a normal teenager, which was what she was supposed to be"/"it's a wonder she didn't turn out worse, considering all she went through."

Because it's true. Dawn, in essence, raised herself post-Joyce's death, and she had to do it while watching people she loved (Joyce, Buffy, Tara) die all around her (and sometimes because of her) without anyone ever trying to be there for her. I adore Buffy, honestly I do, but sometimes her treatment of Dawn was one of the few things I couldn't stand about her.

Also? The last five minutes of "Potential" leave me crying like a baby. Every. Time.

Lirazel | August 16, 01:02 CET

Okay, I hated Dawn. I think Dawn might very well be the worst character the show ever produced, and I always wished that she'd disappear once there was no more "lock" to open. Shame that never happened. I completely agree with her placement on this list, and really only think she should be rated higher. I have never met a child so obnoxious, and I've known plenty of people through her age group. As fair as I'm concerned, Dawn was the Cousin Oliver of Buffy. But, you know, just my opinion.

geekerjoy34 | August 16, 01:28 CET

I like Dawn. We need a Dawn spinoff called, "Dawny!" with Harmony and Dawn living together on the lower east side.

alexreager | August 16, 01:38 CET

I think Dawn is one of the most honest and realistic characters in the Joss 'verse. Perhaps that was the problem for some people, she was a little too real. It's likely that the majority of people that hate Dawn are those that aren't a little brother or sister themselves and don't understand where she's coming from, or haven't had a similar experience (the kind of loneliness she feels). If you have had a similar experience, you'd understand Dawn.
If ever there was a metaphor on Bufy for feeling alone, ignored, misunderstood and not accepted, it was Dawn.

NuVanessa | August 16, 01:50 CET

One of my favorite relationships in the show was that between Spike and Dawn. :) Both worshiped Buffy, both hated Buffy, sometimes both at the same time, and it colored their interactions with her and each other.

I had 2 younger sisters and was one myself so Dawn only irritated me the way my sisters irritated me: a lot. But I still love her. Er, them. I mean.

cabri | August 16, 01:56 CET

I also disagree with Sookie. Taylor was the most annoying charater in Stars Hollow IMHO.

Amen. I adored Sookie, she was fun. But Taylor, holy crap, that guy was annoying. Every time he meddled with someone else's business affairs, I wanted the other character to smack him. No one on the show ever expressed enough dislike for him.

As for Dawn: I used to be the whiny little sister, and that's not an easy mirror to look at. She was realistic. She idolized her older sibling and wanted to be her, she was emotionally neglected, always felt left out of the group, and shoplifting was her way of acting out. She needed her own friends, maybe a counselor to talk to, and to find her own identity. Not to just shut up.

The Shut Up Dawns hurt me too. :(

electricspacegirl | August 16, 02:17 CET

I wasn't a huge fan of Dawn at the time, but, especially through the S8 comics, she's kinda grown on me and stampeded her way into my heart. (3 puns in one sentence, hoorah!)

I think Marissa Cooper (Mischa Barton) should be on that list. No wonder they played 'Hallelujah' when she died!

missb | August 16, 03:36 CET

One of my favorite relationships in the show was that between Spike and Dawn. :) Both worshiped Buffy, both hated Buffy, sometimes both at the same time, and it colored their interactions with her and each other.

I'd actually never really thought of that cabri, but that's a nice point, and I liked that relationship too. Spike's behavior towards Dawn and Joyce was always nice to see; it was as if a softer, kinder side of him could come out with Buffy's family, though not with Buffy or, obviously, her friends.

I'm trying to think if I've ever been really annoyed by a character on a TV show that I otherwise enjoyed watching. I can't think of anyone, although obviously there were characters that didn't interest me all that much sometimes (the potentials in season 7 just never engaged me). I don't think I ever wanted to yell at any of them to shut up, though.

Well done on the triple-pun, missb :).

catherine | August 16, 04:19 CET

Dawn (and Kim Bauer, for that matter) has nothing on Sansa Stark. Still hopefully waiting to find out that she dies horribly...

jclemens | August 16, 06:07 CET

I'm trying to think if I've ever been really annoyed by a character on a TV show that I otherwise enjoyed watching.

Oh! Oh! Oh! That suddenly reminded me of Space: Above and Beyond, one of my favorite scifi shows. I don't know if you've ever seen it, but one of the main characters, the whiny male lieutenant, just made me clench. my. teeth. It's probably a good thing the show was cancelled or I would've ended up with ... um, bruxism? ;)

cabri | August 16, 08:32 CET

I think Marissa Cooper (Mischa Barton) should be on that list. No wonder they played 'Hallelujah' when she died!

Very much so.

electricspacegirl | August 16, 09:08 CET

I think we should stop picking on poor Dawnie, for a number of reasons, all equally compelling: 1)she had it rough, 2)she has really great hair, 3)she'll probably outgrow it, and 4)she could sooo kick our asses in her current state.

Honestly, I liked Dawn if not at the beginning-ish of "Real Me," then by the end, for sure. Then again, I was watching as a 16-year old younger sister...in the throes of high school. Also, my sis and I have the same age difference as Buffy and Dawn, so I can identify even more.

I agree with those of you who think we all should cut her more slack. I can look back now and realize that I was just as irritating at times, and I lived in a stable, 2-parent home, and the only thing mystical about me was my "quick and useless wit." One night even found me huddled on the floor blasting *cringe* Avril Lavigne. Angst at its finest! ;) Now, I'm growed up good...and listening to The Clash, et al.

The only thing that ever truly bugged me was the klepto thing, but even that had its amusing moments, the best being OMWF and the first time I loved the use of the word "pissed" in a song.

And remember, Buffy could be pretty annoying in S1; it's just that she was the hero/protagonist gal and we were already predisposed to love her.

As for Ross, I really liked him at first (and was bugged by Chandler). Now, I still like the show, but the best moments are sans-Ross. I really started to like Chandler when he and Monica were together. I love, love, love Phoebe. Especially because my sister is *so* much like her. Looks, ditziness--it's uncanny.

When I watched Fresh Prince of Bel Aire, Hilary irritated me at first, but now she cracks me up to no end. However, SpongeBob's friend Patrick makes me want to throw razors and lemon juice at harmless passers-by. Also, any character on the Disney Channel. Except for Kim Possible.

I think I beat QG in the character count! (Yes, pun intended) :\ Then again, she's a tiara...what harm can she do? ;)

BandofBuggered | August 16, 09:39 CET

Dawn is a character I find quite enjoyable, especially given the underlying metaphor that Joss built into her introduction.

I recall reading this character analysis of Dawn which helped open my eyes to some of the themes and intentions regarding that character. I love all the interesting subtext built into the Whedonverse and with Dawn I found I picked up on a lot more of it during subsequent viewing.

inverse | August 16, 16:32 CET

I didn't mind Dawn's annoyingness, and I loved the new aspect of love and responsibility that the character brought to Buffy's life. I'm not sure Buffy's sacrifice in the Gift would have meant quite as much if it were for someone we all loved as much as Buffy did. Family, you know, warts-and-all.

Kim Bauer is the worst type of character I can think of. Unlike Dawn, she wasn't written to be annoying--I think we were supposed to really care about her--and her actions brought the storyline down around her. I don't care if a show has some unlikeable (to me) characters, but when a character makes the same dumb decisions over & over, it ruins the plot. And that makes me start saying things like, "Kill her already!"

jcs | August 16, 16:34 CET

Thanks for the link, inverse, that was really interesting. I'd never thought of it as a metaphor for adoption, but that's perfect, obviously.

I think the problem with Dawn, insofar as there ever was a problem, lay with (eep!) the writing. Her being written too young at first, obviously: I thought she delivered "get out get out get OUT" brilliantly, but the problem was that it was a teen actress portraying a ten-year-old character. Later on, I really liked both the character and the actress but she was occasionally written as kind of one-note (just needy needy needy), and I guess that's where a lot of people got annoyed. There was all this stuff she was dealing with, but they couldn't make room for it, really. I loved the show precisely because each character had so much going on, and it bears re-watching so well because of that. But with the brutal schedule they had going, to get these 22 or however many eps on the air each year... some stuff got dealt with a little clumsily, and a lot of that stuff was Dawn's stuff, especially in S6.

I think what I loved most about her introduction in S5, though, was what she brought out in all these characters we'd loved for years already. We got to see another side of each of them (especially Buffy, Spike, Willow and Tara) in their interactions with her.

Loved her in the S7 finale saying to Buffy "anything you say is going to sound like goodbye" and striding off down the hallway with a sword. And it was a tiny moment, but I loved the way her face fell after she said to Buffy "who's the man?" so pleased with the way she'd kept Joyce from finding out about Buffy's wound in Fool For Love, and Buffy replied "You are. A very short, annoying man." Her expression was perfect. Oh Dawnie.

catherine | August 16, 18:12 CET

I was always a Dawn fan. I'll never understand the hate.

NimNams | August 16, 18:49 CET

Why do spin-offs always get the shaft?! Connor was/is one of the most annoying, weird looking and unnecessary characters on "Angel" and while Dawn grew on me by season 7(and more in season 8), Connor will forever annoy me.

Had Dawn been thrown out after season 5, or was at least brought in at the beginning of the series, I'd say she has earned her spot on the list, but there are far worse characters in plenty of other shows that deserve such an honor.

Lastly, I am a little angry because that list is making me defend Dawn...ugh...

Gio | August 16, 22:48 CET

I rarely found Dawn annoying after the first handful of episodes of season five. My younger brother and I have the same age difference as Dawn and Buffy, so that relationship is one with which I've always empathized and is one of my favorites. (Not that my brother is exactly like Dawn - he was basically never annoying :) - and God knows I'm no Buffy Anne Summers.)

Now that guy who basically took over Gunn's old group in "That Old Gang of Mine" - now he was one of TV's most annoying characters....

LKW | August 16, 23:36 CET

Interesting 2005 discussion and poll on most annoying Trek character, and several other topics. Wesley Crusher was not an option, so it's interesting to see how attitudes evolve.
http://www.jasonbennion.com/archives/000357.html

I'm not big with the Dawn hate. I thought Oz was far more annoying - yack yack yack - doesn't that guy ever shut up?

So here's a tough question: who was the most annoying regular Firefly character? Actually, I think that one is rhetorical, cause I'm just getting a big DOES NOT COMPUTE when I think about it.

[ edited by AlanD on 2008-08-17 00:34 ]

AlanD | August 17, 00:33 CET

I've gotta express my disdainyness about these lists.

I saw the Sci-Fi list with Serenity at 30.. and saw Iron Man as #1, and Hancock firmly placed in there.

Clearly the folks are of a particular age, and haven't really seen a lot of TV or Movies beyond their generation (which beg the question why they are clearly published commentators on same).

And yes, I notice the one or two throwbacks put in there.. but its just throwing us old-timers (see: Over 30) a bone.

I AM surprised at the lack of Wesley Crusher on this list. Not surprised, based on the prior observation, to see that they missed on any Cosby, Family Ties, Different Strokes (I mean, c'mon.. the redhead brother?), Growing Pains, MASH, Bewitched, references.

In the same breath, not surprised to see that somehow Iron man beat Ghostbusters, and Hancock managed to make it while Blade Runner and 2001 (and ANY Trek) were skipped.

Plus, Serenity deserved top 10.

Poor Dawnie.. if the list was in any way expansive, she wouldn't have even rate.

Nightshot | August 17, 02:35 CET

Oh.. and Connor was cool. He made dumb decisions, but he kicked @$$ and he got REALLY complex by the end.. the reason I like him.. the performance. Vincent is clearly a better actor than Michelle.

(Brace for impact!!)

Nightshot | August 17, 02:39 CET

I have no Dawn hate. There's a couple of lines that bug me. But that is offset by the lines I like.

I've always liked Wesley Crusher.

I previously found Gaius Baltar thoroughly annoying...self-centered, manipulative and often looked like he was about to start crying or have a nervous breakdown. He got better this past season, and now I like him...or at least his current story.

Billie Jenkins on Charmed is I think one of the worst examples of introducing a totally new younger character in a series in it's twilight season.

GrrrlRomeo | August 17, 04:05 CET

I like Dawn. From thumb wrestling to a sudden knowledge of many languages. She was great.

And since BSG was mentioned - I find Apollo the most annoying character in that series.

moley75 | August 17, 11:13 CET

I still find Dawn a bit annoying in parts of S5 and S6... but in S7 she is cool. And she's brave, resourceful and funny.

With Connor, I never found him annoying as much as creepy. But what else do you expect from a kid brought up in a hell dimension by a super-creep Daniel Holtz?

Effulgent | August 19, 23:02 CET

Thanks for that link, inverse. That is pretty much the way I've always seen Dawn. I never have had a problem with her because I understood why she was the way she was, although I don't find her nearly as whiny as some people do. All the characters had their share of whininess, including Xander and Angel, with a lot less reason - and a few more years!

I subscribe to the theory barest_smidgen put forth a few years ago, that how you feel about Dawn often depends on your place in your own family. I've asked a number of people over the years and it usually bears out. ;)

I didn't have a problem with Connor, either. I thought Vincent Kartheiser did an excellent job of portraying a young man brought up in a Hell dimension who was taught by a tremendously bitter man to hate the man who was his actual father. How screwed up would you be?

The same goes for Michelle Trachtenberg. Dawn was at times exuberant, petulant, mischievous, annoying, loving, needy and more, and we believed her, because of Michelle's acting. She was written that way for a reason - or several reasons - all of which are stated in the LJ post that inverse referenced above. She was a fourteen-year-old girl who had no stability in her life and yet became a confident and competent young woman by the end of S7.

Someone in this thread mentioned Dawn being 10, but she says she's 15 in S6. Her reference to being 10 is when she and Riley are talking by the carousel while Joyce is in hospital and Dawn said that her mother had rented the carousel for her 10th birthday but since they had just moved to Sunnydale, they didn't know anyone, so it ended up being just the three of them riding around for an hour. What a sad thought and then she realises that it hadn't happened at all.

Regarding Sookie, I loved her. She was Lorelai's best friend, Rory's 'aunt' and a great, if slightly neurotic, cook, and an integral member of the community. Taylor, on the other hand, was very annoying and many times I also wanted to smack him upside the head - or just punch him! However, again, he was written that way to give Lorelai and especially Luke someone to play off.

samatwitch | August 30, 23:57 CET

August 15 2008