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September 11 2008

Fox executives concerned about the creative direction of Dollhouse? In an article about the Dollhouse production stoppage TV Week says that a number of executives at Fox "have concerns... about the fundamental underpinnings of the show" and think "early episodes of the series have been confusing and hard to follow".

I know an link about the stoppage has already been posted but as this has new and conflictiing information I thought it was worth posting.

Considering it's Joss, Dollhouse will probably be extremely complex, but if the executives think it will be confusing, they are most likely underestimating the intelligence of the general public. But then again, they might be right - some people are pretty dumb.
This is bothersome. Yeah. My tummy's startin' to hurt.
Can we panic now, please?
My opinions:

1) As B!x implied yesterday, let's not overreact.

2) Joss does like to write non-linear / parallel-story plots that are very fulfilling by the end but mid-stream (intentionally) leave the reader/viewer with questions. We all like this, but the hope is that it doesn't turn off the more casual viewer.

3) I disagree with viewers not being able to identify with Echo's lack of free will. In fact, a key dynamic of the show is her GROWTH in self-awareness and free will, and I think that is the hook that will make people eager to follow her opening up.
Remember, executives are generally dumb. They think they know what the public will or won't respond to, will or won't like, and more often than not, are wrong.

We all know the laundry lists of television shows that are now beloved that executives think they knew better about.
Well, the source seems to be "A person familiar with the thinking of some Fox executives"... rumors from such "persons" tend to be false, generally. Of course a very few times they're true... let's hope they're not this time. And if they are, let's hope that these executives won't mess with it even if they're not totally convinced. Anyway I wouldn't worry. Yet.
With all due respect to New-FOX, and I'm honestly saying this with an open mind about the current regime, it sickens me when I hear suggestions that a show has to be altered because it might be too complicated for the general public. That, because the masses can't seem to concentrate on anything slightly more confusing that Deal or No Deal, any show that uses a word with too many letters won't be accepted.

Getting a little tired of seeing the networks dumb everything down for "our benefit". I'd like a show that gave me a little to think about after it was over, if that's okay?

Still, I'll continue to agree with the "don't panic" suggestion at the moment. This may well still be just speculation and someone putting 2 and 2 together and getting 22. Because that's what we stupid people do. ;)
This is just a rehash of the news from when the new pilot was being shot mixed with the new news of the production shutdown with an edgier angle to try to draw viewers. In other words, the typical nonsense. "A person familiar with the thinking of Fox some Fox executives...". What, did they approach a Whedonesque commenter? I don't want it dumbed down either, but please remember that KR is not exactly known for helping develop shows that target the lowest common denominator. This "source" is probably name J. Finnias Imaginaryperson.

None of the info in this is new. This was all stuff that Joss told us when he posted here. Its why he decided to shoot a new first episode.

A Fox network spokesman dismissed as “untrue” the notion that Fox Entertainment chiefs Peter Liguori and Kevin Reilly are concerned over the future of the show.

“We believe in Joss, and we support the show,” he said. “It will be on the air midseason.”

It’s worth noting that internal debates over shows are standard operating procedure inside networks, and that different factions within a network—such as marketing or development—might disagree about a show’s potential.


I'm really tempted to delete this for being a cynical rehash/traffic-grab.
Oh nonononono not again. What is it with these people?

Makes me wonder what Fox would have done with "Restless". Like: Why is that woman writing in Greek? What's with all the French? And what does that guy with the cheese do? We don't understand!
Cause Lost isn't confusing at all- well, that wasn't really a hit, anyway.
I'd tend to agree with you zeitgeist, except for this line, "But executives who’ve read future scripts said some of those issues remain." ("Those issues" refer to the apparently problematic issues associated with the original pilot.) That wasn't said during the pilot news. It seems the lead was slightly buried in this story - that the concern is now about scripts subsequent to the new pilot and the second episode (old pilot).

This article and its alarmism aside, let's revisit the trajectory in recent months: the pilot is re-shot to whip the introduction to the world into better shape. Then production shuts down for two weeks so Joss can whip scripts after the first two eps into better shape. It's all apparently coming (mainly) from Joss's own aesthetic concerns, but not to be at least a little concerned seems head-in-sandy. I hope that Joss (and whomever else) can be happy with the quality of the scripts and whatever else at the end of the two weeks' break.

I managed to say this all without bashing any Fox executives! I'm with zeitgeist on that one = KR has a good track record. But of course he does not act alone.

[ edited by phlebotinin on 2008-09-11 14:38 ]
*rolls eyes*

zeitgeist I'm with you, it's total speculation: 'A person familiar with the thinking of some Fox executives' does indeed show that no actual Fox exec has commented somebody's just trying to make a story out of a non-story.

The break in shooting has already been explained.
Right, phleb, but the "read future scripts... some of those issues remain" is the not-so-hidden message in why he's shutting down production if you use your Super Secret Whedon Decoder Ringtm. The real problem here is that this sort of stuff happens all of the time and until we had the internet we didn't hear about every little thing that happened. Tempest meet teacup. I'm not saying don't be concerned at all; its a tv show and most of those don't make it through their first year (notoriously colicky bastards). I'm just saying that this "news" isn't reason to be more worried.

ETA - I would remind everyone that Angel was shut down for a week in year one due to concern over one Tim Minear's script and we all know how that ended.
I'm really tempted to delete this for being a cynical rehash/traffic-grab.

Considering Reilly's comments, I'm instantly reminded of the seasonal How I Met Your Mother cancellation watch because some people at CBS hate the show. That show is probably going to run for 100+ episodes, so this kind of thing does not concern me.

Reilly and Liguori, as well as McPherson at ABC seem like the good guys. Though, I believe McPherson has tried to make shows more conventional, too. I think he was the one who pushed Fuller to make Pushing Daisies focus more on the detective/procedural elements and less on the romance/epic. Other folks may disagree, but I feel like they've reached a pretty awesome middle ground. Much as artistic freedom is necessary, certain impulses do need to be reined in. People need to watch these shows and conventional (procedural cop/medical shows and laugh track sitcoms) programming tend to get the ratings amongst scripted shows. Fox is not HBO.

[ edited by Dirk on 2008-09-11 14:53 ]
And, for the record, I'm not bashing Fox execs either.

I'm bashing all network suits equally. ;)

In this case, as I said further up the thread, I'm keeping a really open mind about those in charge at Fox at the moment. I know very little about KR's track record so I'm judging developments as they go and trusting that zeitgeist is right to back the guy and hasn't secretly been replaced by a KR created zeitgeist clone, brainwashed to do the bidding of Fox.

What? It could happen!
ETA - I would remind everyone that Angel was shut down for a week in year one due to concern over one Tim Minear's script and we all know how that ended.

It was prematurely cancelled you mean ?

(ah the joys of cherry picking facts ;)

(and that's actually a case in point, that happened over episode 2 of 'Angel' and yet I didn't have any idea until about a year ago - and then only cos of the internet)

(and just one more thing ... ;)
Right, Highlander, its like I was saying, Fox is awe-

IRQL NOT LESS OR EQUAL.
STOP:OX0000000A(OXC8E0097E,OX00000009, OX00000001,OX804D9108)
BEGINNING DUMP OF PHYSICALMEMORY
PHYSICAL MEMORY DUMP COMPLETE

ETA: alternately

/usr/lib/foxbot.sl: Can't find path for shared library: lib_fox_defend.sl
/usr/lib/foxbot.sl: No such file or directory
Abort(coredump)
Okay, maybe less clone, more android duplicate with dodgy programming.

Either is possible... :D
Agreed, zeitgeist, about the message-decoding, except that the previous article about this shut-down didn't call this underlying stuff out. The interpretation was there for anyone to decode it (I did), but all that was reported was the official line instead. I'm not sure that's good reporting. For that reason, despite using my secret decoder ring, part of me hoped after reading the previous article that the shut down might truly be about concerns Joss was having about what he wanted his show to be, and not the result of anyone else's problem.

Extra-agreed about these turbulences being the norm with developing TV shows. I'm starting to loathe the tempest-in-teacup flavor that the internet brings to observing a show develop from the cheap seats. I remember the old days very well and they're starting to look like great times. Wasn't it Fury's script "Corrupt" that resulted in the Angel shut-down, though?

[ edited by phlebotinin on 2008-09-11 15:04 ]
I know very little about KR's track record...

He, and Liguori, made FX what it is now basically by developing The Shield. I think they actually do a commentary with Shawn Ryan on the DVD sets. He had a hand in getting The Sopranos on the air.

When he was at NBC, he helped get some second chances for low rated, critically acclaimed shows like 30 Rock, Friday Night Lights and The Office. Obviously, Friday Night Lights lost its way in Season 2 with some terrible writing, but that's beside the point. The first season was awesome, but 6,000,000 people were tuning in. He renewed it, put it on Friday nights and then got fired. But, whatever. He seems like a dude that wants to develop good shows as opposed to cancelling anything that doesn't get 10,000,000 total viewers or 3.0 or better amongst 18-49 viewers. To me, that bodes well for a Joss show.
I'm still not going to panic =P
Until more comes out about this I think we should all get behind the wonderful studio that has offered our Mr. Whedon another shot and start with the positive thinking. Who's with me?
Dirk, you could have stopped at The Shield. Anyone who was part of giving me that television gem deserves every last drop of benefit of the doubt I can manage, as far as I'm concerned.
Required reading.

ETA: Selected quotes:

Early in his career at NBC, Reilly supervised Law & Order in its first season and developed ER.

He joined Brillstein-Grey in 1994 and helped build the television studio into one of the most successful independent suppliers of television programming. He was responsible for shepherding some of television’s top shows, such as the pilot for The Sopranos, and the NBC comedies Just Shoot Me and NewsRadio.

Before rejoining NBC in May 2004, Reilly served as President of Entertainment for FX, where he developed and launched the cable network's first original drama, The Shield. He also developed and programmed Nip/Tuck and the Denis Leary show Rescue Me for the network. [1]

At NBC, Reilly's vocal support of The Office helped it survive its low-rated first season. [2] He is credited with developing hits such as My Name Is Earl, Heroes, 30 Rock, and Friday Night Lights.[3]

Linking's getting more efficient. I think you'll have it down to a single character by the time 'Dollhouse' actually airs ;).
For some values of 'efficient'.
Yeah, then I ruined it by quoting for people with fear of unknown links :).
Hehe, I'm about five minutes ahead of you there zeitgeist. Just Wikipedia'd the guy myself. Thanks for the linkage though.

May not ever be able to forgive him for helping get Nip/Tuck on the air but other than that I'd have to agree that Dollhouse appears in safe hands.
May not ever be able to forgive him for helping get Nip/Tuck on the air

Just curious, Highlander, but what why are you so opposed to Nip/Tuck?
Y'all do know that this mysterious "person familiar with the thinking of some Fox executives" is actually part of an Al Queda terrorist cell group, right?

See, now you have a legitimate reason to panic.
What more does FOX have to do before people start giving them the benefit of the doubt? There might very well be some people in high-ranking positions at the network who have concerns about DH, but it's NO REASON TO PANIC. In case you've forgotten, DH was greenlit based SOLELY on Joss's initial pitch, which got the series a committment of 7 episodes, and the execs gave the series another 6 BEFORE Joss had even started shooting the pilot.
I am positive TV Week ran this article so the TV Week staffers could wager on how many posts their thread would generate.
What more does FOX have to do before people start giving them the benefit of the doubt?

Well, passing out free gold wouldn't exactly hurt their case, just sayin'.
Headlines from spring 2009:

President McCain Sworn In
FOX Cancels "Dollhouse"
WCityMike Talked Down Off Roof
Just curious, Highlander, but what why are you so opposed to Nip/Tuck?

It's hard to give one specific reason, to be honest, electricspacegirl. There is actually nothing at all I could truthfully say that I like about the show. There is just something about the characters and their central storylines that makes my skin crawl, and not in the way that well written but dislikable characters are supposed to.

I'm usually one of those people that can understand, if not justify, the actions of a given character and at least find enjoyment in watching them do wrong for the right reasons, or even for the wrong reasons. Dexter, The Shield, Californication. All shows on my must-watch list. Nip/Tuck, for whatever reason, gives me absolutely no pleasure in watching it. There are very few shows that I honestly go out of my way to avoid but that's one of them, I'm afraid.

Also, the 'Fox giving out free gold in exchange for our trust' idea? I'd go for that. I'm very trusting of people who give me large amounts of wealth.
Couple o'points: (1) No matter how you cut it, this is not a good thing. It may be fine in the long run, but it is more than nettlesome now. (2) Given that none of us have actually seen the show yet, we are not in a position to judge whether those concerns are realistic or not. For myself, I'm concerned that the show may be losing support no matter what is said, and this was the worry I had all along about it being on Fox, given what they did (or did not do) with Firefly.

Well, let's hope this short hiatus brings closure to the issue and all goes on as planned.

Edited 3 times today because I cannot spell.

[ edited by Dana5140 on 2008-09-11 16:09 ]

[ edited by Dana5140 on 2008-09-11 16:09 ]

[ edited by Dana5140 on 2008-09-11 16:10 ]
Also, the 'Fox giving out free gold in exchange for our trust' idea? I'd go for that. I'm very trusting of people who give me large amounts of wealth.

If you can't trust a large corporation giving out money with no apparent catch, who can you trust ?
and this was the worry I had all along about it being on Fox, given what they did (or did not do) with Firefly.


See? That's perfectly sane logic. Like, I totally trust the Bush administration because Lincoln and his administration seemed like decent fellows.
If you can't trust a large corporation giving out money with no apparent catch, who can you trust ?

I've also heard of little people with Irish accents in green outfits offering whole pots of gold if you can just find the end of a rainbow.

Actually I'm more inclined to go with the leprechaun option. They never cancelled any of my favourite shows. ;)
Someone should create a website with a Whedon Panic Level graphic and current status. It should almost always be green and soothing, so as to calm people down during times like these.
Someone should create a website with a Whedon Panic Level graphic and current status.

This. Is. Awesome. Post.
Someone should create a website with a Whedon Panic Level graphic and current status. It should almost always be green and soothing, so as to calm people down during times like these.


Someone totally should. I think it should just reflect the status of the general fandom reaction to the latest Whedonesque news. Get on that, people!
I think gossi said he's going to do it.
Someone totally should. I think it should just reflect the status of the general fandom reaction to the latest Whedonesque news. Get on that, people!

No, it has to always be green! Unless something is actually very wrong in a big way, like we know Dollhouse is in danger of being canceled or something. It's supposed to calm people down, not feed into the panic! If I had any website-making skills other than mastery of basic HTML, I'd do it myself. Basically we have little bits of information that snowball here, and this is meant to counter that kind of thing by only reflecting really big/significant/for certain news.
Based upon what I thnk is the key paragraph of the article:
It’s worth noting that internal debates over shows are standard operating procedure inside networks, and that different factions within a network—such as marketing or development—might disagree about a show’s potential.

I rather suspect that the "executives who’ve read future scripts" aren't on the development end, for whom these alleged "issues" would have been known for some time and thus would not be causing them sudden headaches now, but instead are people in marketing, who might have only just now started to try to grapple with how to sell the show to people.

But marketing's job is to sell what's being produced, not whinge about it being too hard. So this sounds like some guy in marketing whining to someone he shouldn't be whining to.

IMHO.
This definitely gives me belly rumblins...
This article sounds like a lot of nothing to me.
Yeah but sometimes nothing can be a real cool hand.

(especially when it comes to getting eyeballs to your site ;)
You know, dumbing down will only serve to ...dumb us down. But then again, how many millions of people watch every single minute of American Idol, Survivor and America's Got Talent? Maybe those shows dumb people down too, and to save their souls from eternal television hell we have to speak their language for a little bit before we blindside them with some real television.

I'm not being mean to any fans here who watch any of those shows...I just have to ask, "why? Dear God and all that is fluffy...why?!"
Whedon Panic Status: green; whole lotta nuthin' goin' on.
I feel more relaxed already ;).
Hrm. I need some tech support. I just looked up and noticed that my Whedon Panic Level meter seems to be on chartreuse. WTF does that mean?

I didn't even know it could DO chartreuse.
Web chartreuse or traditional?
Yeah, we could really do with the pantone code - assuming you're "totally relaxed" when you're actually "a tad nervy" could be disastrous.
Remember that Fox execs tend towards being infantile, if their request that Lena Headley's boobs be made bigger* on Terminator is any indication. *mentioned in the commentary track of season 1. You can't expect babies to understand stories.
ZG, you know Fox has a history of cutting shows very quickly, and in doing bad things like forcing Joss to redo his original story in Firefly. So, I find this worrisome.
I'm on alert level beige. Is that good or bad?
Oh Joss, why did you not create this show for HBO or Showtime?!
Oh Joss, why did you not create this show for HBO or Showtime?!

'Cos Eliza had the deal with Fox. If Joss had had the idea while having lunch with Eliza and then said "Thanks for the inspiration, I'm taking it to HBO" it would have been a pretty mean thing to do.
No quotes, no sources, I can't believe you guys are getting so hyped up about this. It's trash, total trash.
Panic Meter...... NO.

Seems fun at first, but remember that Joss said, while he appreciated the enthusiasm driving the early "Save Dollhouse" pseudo-campaign, he actually didn't like it because it can cause a perception within Hollywood the the project is in trouble. Rumors in Hollywood gather steam quickly, so we don't want to do anything that would inadvertently draw attention to a problem that may not exist. Else, we may be the ones CREATING the problem.
Well I, for one -- having read the article and all these comments -- feel that the only real way we can properly stick it to FOX for what they will naturally do to Dollhouse is to boycott FOX altogether.

Yep.

No more House.

No more 24.

No more Fringe (or Flange, or whatever that thing was).

No more Doll...


Oh, wait...
zz9 - depends which area of your anatomy, I'd say.

Betcha anything that a Whedon Panic Level meter would turn out to be our achilles heel because the Big Bad Executive would find a way to hack in, say a nifty spell and reverse the feedback polarity, thus making us all panic simply by turning it to red. What nefarious reason he could have to do that, would, I estimate, take approximately 42 minutes to solve.

That's the way the world works, right?

[ edited by skittledog on 2008-09-11 18:15 ]
There is nothing to worry about, people. I think some of you actually enjoy the panicking and trying to panic others. Ridiculous really.

And Dana, exactly how many times do we have to state that the people making the decisions at FBC are not the same folks that were there 6 frickin' years ago?

This issue has nothing to do with FBC anyway. This is a statement put out by 20th (unnecessarily in my opinion) about an internal 20th matter. FBC's schedule and requested product is not at all in danger.

Yet another kerfuffle over absolutely nothing.
I'm calm and unworried. Nothing to see here, move right along.

I am wondering how many episodes have been shot by now (at least two that we know of, right?). Which scripts are these rewrites on?
Hopefully it's nothing but internal grumbling. Otherwise, we might need to think about starting a new batch of Torgo's Executive Powder...
Remember that silly show with a funny name called "Buffy the Vampire Slayer"?

Apart for the name, I remember concerns like Dollhouse is getting now, but it did allright in the end.

I'm not worried.
I imagine that the original statement about the delay was made (warning: speculation) precisely to head off the sorts of anti-FOX rumors that would swarm if instead the news leaked. It looked to me a lot like someone trying to get out ahead of the story so that it wouldn't actually be a story.

Of course, it played out the way they feared anyway. It just goes to show: Don't underestimate the power of fandom to make everything a matter of life or death panic.
The original story came from Korbi at Zap2it. Every other article just builds on a very innocuous article and hypes up the doom and gloom. Bloggers and news sites are putting words into Joss' mouth and creating fictional "insiders" who spread dire warnings. Don't believe any of it, whedonesquers.
OK, two things. We'd appreciate it if you post stories here, you all try to post responsibly. So, no tabloidy headlines, please, like the one I deleted just now.

Secondly, even if you think another poster is being waaaaay stoopid, try to phrase your comments in a way that doesn't reflect that. By all means, be smart, but stay kind.
With BtVS, Willow got recast unexectedly and that worked out OK!

Changes are part of the creative process. The only new thing is the TRANSPARENCY that we -- as fans -- now have into the process.
The only new thing is the TRANSPARENCY that we -- as fans -- now have into the process.

I think this is the deal. And, like I said above, I think that the quotes in the original Zap2It piece might have been made in part with a recognition of that transparency. To wit: Better to say something up front so there's an official "nothing to worry about" statement out there BEFORE the new transparency spews out a bunch of panicky half-truths.
I'm on alert level beige. Is that good or bad?

For optimal alert level use, remove any tinted Dr. Horrible goggles you may be wearing before viewing the alert status.
I think beige is one of the better alert levels because it goes with nearly anything.
But black is more slimming, Saje
But black is more slimming...

So no one can see this spare tire?
If alert level beige makes you cast aside your friends and be moody and disillusioned, I'd say "bad" zz9 ;)

And yeah, Lioness, that's why I like posting here. It makes me look slim. (what do you mean, I'm posting in white? :p)
Slim is overrated, I like my women well-rounded. Gotta love those curves!
(what do you mean, I'm posting in white? :p)

White goes with a lot of stuff too but you need to wash it more often.

But black is more slimming, Saje

Oh agreed Lioness, i'd say black's the best alert level of all - the "Little Black Terror Alert" isn't a classic for nothing.
If a TV executive thinks it's too complicated, he understands part of it and it's probably too simple. If he'd said it was incomprehensible to him, that would be just about right.
Sometimes I wonder where the general animosity towards television executives comes from. Do people think that all of the awesome shows that they love and watch every week somehow had no television executives involved in them?
htom, we don't have any actual proof that an exec thinks the show is too complicated or is incomprehensible. This is all total conjecture.
Plus, as we know, some of the execs like complicated shows/good dramas/non-simplistic comedies *cough Kevin Reilly cough*.
If Kevin Reilly ever runs for public office, he should totally hire zeitgeist in some kind of communications role.
Sometimes I wonder where the general animosity towards television executives comes from.

The heart.

I'm kidding. Almost entirely! ;)
Nah, zeitgeist, as you well know, this whole Reilly trackrecord business is nothing more than evil media-mogul propaganda. Past studies have shown beyond doubt that, in fact, all television executives:

1) are evil
2) like drinking blood (which is why they let "cute vampire shows" appear on television)
3) are anti-creative (which is why we should keep creative types like Joss Whedon away from them because unintentional random collission would result in them both dissapearing and leaving only energy in their wake).
4) are only involved in bad television shows
5) hate YOU. That's right, personally. Because they can.

So, don't buy into all this "fresh wind" "helped create great shows" "is fluffy and cute" nonsense. Be wise and repeat after me: all television executives should be [censored]

(or, y'know, not ;))

[ edited by GVH on 2008-09-11 19:22 ]
Since it was mentioned earlier, here is what Tim said about Lonely Hearts in the Vampires & Slayers blog

"David Fury, who wrote this episode, had written a script called ‘Corrupt’ in which Kate was a police officer working undercover as a prostitute who was actually becoming a prostitute and was addicted to crack. That was originally the introduction of Kate. Obviously we were still trying to figure out what the show was at that point. This was the first episode after the pilot, and it was written before the new staff arrived. They just went incredibly dark with this thing and decided at the end of the day that it was a little bit too hopeless, a little too grim. After that episode was written it was actually being prepped when the network, too, had some concerns about it.”

It would seem that this was about the same time that the Internet ran rampant with rumors that the WB had shut down the show for retooling. “You can’t really call it a shut down, because we hadn’t really started,” Minear clarifies. “We just pushed back the shoot date for the first episode a week or two. It’s not like alarms went off and we had to pull plugs on everything. I’ve read on the Internet where people were saying the network freaked, and they told us to shut down, and that’s not true at all. We were still creating what the idea of the show was going to be, and basically we decided to rethink that first episode. The other thing that people don’t realize is that a lot of the other episodes that we’ve done this year were written much earlier and did not change significantly. It was really that first episode where we went back, rethought it, and we were lucky we had the luxury to do that.”
And, honestly, to go back to the original information: Do people really think that "the showrunner's been so busy directing two episodes that he needs more time to be in the writers' room for the other ones" is a BAD thing?

Joss getting to un-overextend himself a little bit and really craft things isn't BAD news.
Unless you have a bet against him succeeding. Could the mob be behind all this ?

1) are evil
2) like drinking blood (which is why they let "cute vampire shows" appear on television) ...


They steal baby's toys too. Fact !

Plus, as we know, some of the execs like complicated shows/good dramas/non-simplistic comedies *cough Kevin Reilly cough*.

If only someone had linked to his credits, like, a bajillion times i'm sure all of this could've been averted.
It sounds like every girl needs a Little Black Terror Alert. Will it be an effective defence against my mother's Scottish Terrier?
No, but you'll look great in the [eligible single doctor filled] ER so, y'know, silver lining ;).
Gossi, what's the hold up? I just googled Whedon Panic Level and there's nothing there!!!
Yeah, don't make me do it instead, I'm at work.

[ edited by theonetruebix on 2008-09-11 20:13 ]
Thanks, Nocticola, for the review of the business about Angel's first episode. That was (amazingly) back before I was obsessively reading Whedonesque every day, so I hadn't heard the story.
There's complicated and then there's confusing, and I think a lot of people here are mixing up the two. Things can be complicated without being confusing, and things are often confusing simply for the reason that the story wasn't handled well - not because it was "too complicated for all those dumb people". I've seen a few confusing stories that weren't that complicated at all. Joss himself has said he is concerned about the clarity of the scripts and wanted to work on them himself, so I don't think we should put this on the executives. Taking time to focus on the story is a GOOD thing. Let's not jump the gun and assume it means "dumbing down the story".

[ edited by ShamelessSingingRennie on 2008-09-11 20:32 ]
I thought about doing it, but I would've thought gossi or b!X would've done it for me by now.
I thought about doing it, but I would've thought gossi or b!X would've done it for me by now.

Maybe we need a small mailing list -- "whedon-dibs" or some such -- just to keep track and make sure nothing is left undone. ;)
Yeah, I recognize the theme of this story. Reminds me of another bedtime story read to me as a child by my mother. It was titled "Chicken Little".
It sounds like FUD all together. Like the CERN LHC beeing turned on today, and the Earth shrinking to an inch, haha. GVH, any take on that? :D
Even if the LHC were going to suck the planet into oblivion (which it isn't), it would not have happened yesterday anyway since they weren't doing any actual colliding.
Sounds like a new Joss SciFi script though..
Soo much off-topic, sorry for that, but heh. Sending a show to oblivion 'cause someone says is that too :P
"Sometimes I wonder where the general animosity towards television executives comes from. Do people think that all of the awesome shows that they love and watch every week somehow had no television executives involved in them?"

Yes. I think that television executives are in charge of generating audiences to sell advertising space, and their interest in the shows themselves does not extend beyond that. Therefore they make suggestions such as "bigger boobs", because their lack of experience with storytelling leaves them with absolutely no experience other than their own biological imperatives. I do not believe that they have any knowledge of storytelling, nor even a background in anything other than business.
I think no one should panic as of yet. This is just someone trying to stir up the hornet's nest after the shooting hiatus was announced.
Come one, people, remember: In Joss, we trust.
That's all you need.
willbueche, and you know that the execs involved have no experience with storytelling and only make decisions based on biological imperatives, how? Do you know Kevin Reilly and Peter Ligouri? Have you taken a look at what they have done in their careers?
Pure speculation. Pure, 100% unadulterated by facts speculation.
Jeez I go to my grams and I return to find that all unfun hell has broken lose. I knew a calm day amidst family members was a harbinger of something.

*waits for the one and only Level Alert Purple to speak before jumping into bouts of fandomoniom*
What's all the fuss? They can just rearrange the order of the episodes. Turned out fine last time.
Kevin Reilly has done good things in the past.

FOX has done bad things in the past.

Still not convinced that Reilly will change FOX. I think it's more likely that FOX will change Reilly, or fire him like NBC did.
I can picture this fanbase panicking about Dollhouse being cancelled despite being in its 20th season as the show is still having the highest ratings of any show in television history. :D

Oh, I'm not worried.
Dana5140: "Wlecoem to the culb."

WCityMike: Isn't this premiering after Inauguration Day anyhow? Well, even if it's before, they have a commitment for enoguh weeks that it won't be simultaneous. Besides all of January is in the winter, except for college registrars :-).

I wonder if there's sucha thing as an affordable digital tV that will let me actually follow the discussions here, Beta, the resurrected hellmouthcentral etc. instead of just doing comic* riffs on the spoilers? * well, that's how I think of them
(Unless I win Publishers' Clearing House and get myself settled in a nice double-wide trailer with a ridiculously over-redundant home entertainment system I design myself.)
The same sort of fretting and speculating is going on among U2 fans right now because the band has postponed the release of their new album.

I'm standing on the sidelines of both fandoms rolling my eyes.
Well... Hopefully everything will work out. We're more prepared for Fox's lack of cunning than we were with previous shows. We know how to react if things start looking like Fox might pull a "This is too hard for my brain!" move.
PORTLAND, OR (Interwebs) -- The One True b!X announced late this afternoon that he was postponing further comment on the recent news regarding Joss Whedon's forthcoming series Dollhouse in order to spend more time at the writing table first.

"There's nothing to worry about," he said. "I still find this to be a completely pointless panic. I'm grateful for the chance to go work on some new ways to express that."
I've never seen a fandom that doesn't panic. Even when there's no reason to panic. That's just a 'thing' that every fandom does, and it'll never end.

I'm not panicking this time.
But let people panic... at least is something to do 'till january.
Except that unnecessary panic makes people do dumb things, and also can start bouncing around the echo chamber until it becomes so loud that outsiders start thinking something IS wrong with production on the show.

Those of us trying to get people, constantly, to chill out and calm down aren't do it just to do it. We're doing it for very good reasons. Simply put: If you really do carer about Joss and his work, stop buying into garbage and BS about it, because doing so can actually, ultimately, serve to HARM him and his work.

(Also, some of us just have a pretty solid stick up our butts about truth and accuracy, no matter the context.)
To whoever asked about how many episodes they've shot, Tahmoh Penikett talked about that at Dragon Con. As I recall, they'd either shot three or he'd seen the scripts for the first 3. But anyone who was there or wants to watch the panel on YouTube to verify please jump in with his precise answer.
Wait and see. Best advice ever on this one.
They have shot three episodes.
Always expect the worst, and you will never be disappointed. -- Peter Wastholm
It's all good people. I think this is routine for Whedon and he knows what to do. This didn't come from Fox so let's move on.
Ah, crap. Now it begins.
I wonder what's going to get the axe first: Fringe (which I loved the first episode) or Dollhouse, which they're already starting to screw with.

Succatash, you ain't lyin'.
Check, TamaraC. One more than I thought, then. I just know I'll be subconsciously comparing those first three to the ones after that to see if they are more/less confusing, now ;).

Also, Krusher, breath easy. We get bombarded with galactic particles with higher energies than will be generated in the LHC each day, and we're still here. And plus, even if we do form 'Nasty Black Holes[tm]' in that collider, as far as I understand it, they'll evaporate. Also: like Bix said, the colliding has not yet started. Plus, and possibly most importantly: the universe is not so unfair as to stop before we get to see Dollhouse.

They steal baby's toys too. Fact !


Nail on the head, Saje. In fact I've even heard rumors they torture people with nails on the head, so go figure
Ah, crap. Now it begins.

The only thing that's begun is the invasion of our reality-based community by unnecessary Dollhouse fan freak-outs.

Really, at this point, with all of the evidence and experience amassed in this thread already, anyone who still isn't up to speed with what is and is not the case here is pretty much beyond reaching.
Bix, you're right. Obviously people who are, at this stage, still freaking out, have not read any of the comments, or for that matter even the link. They just see the headline, and decide to make a panicky comment.
YAY!!!

Unnecessary Panic! SO glad I tuned in today. :) Would have tuned in sooner, but then I wouldn't have received such a nice gifty gift.

I regard the article as flugh- "ugh" & fluff mixed together. "Some" people didn't even bother to quote themselves... shameless. I could have written this, and have been more convincing to raise the panic level to turquoise (neon turquoise, if you must know).

But, alas, we're floating in the black for reasons zeitgeist has campained. :) It's amazing how much sense you can make sometimes, z.

GVH, LOL on your depiction of television executives. But, as Saje points out, they also "steal baby's toys". But I think this is because they steal & eat babies, and need the toys to entertain them while they're in baby farms. On that notion, I would say the execs are good, only if for them keeping down the ever-growing problem of over-population and baby poo. *chuckles* Must be a babycake day for me.

Now, back to serious issues- our Alert Meter.

What about varying shades of purple? In honor of his purpleness? Or should it be a combination of purple & strawberry (for the auteur that Pointy mentions every time there's a chance)?

And how come it doesn't exist yet?? I thought we were a "take action!" kind of crowd? Or are we equally enthused with procrastination & indifference? Which ultimately leads us to scrambling & making posters for an already doomed show? I must say... I do work better under pressure... I feel like I just described myself.

Anyway, SAJE said he'd do the alert meter. >)
*laughs*

Yep, bix, I made the mistake a few months ago just popping in & adding my 2 pesos, only to find out later that it was hasty of me to not examine the article or comments.

It reminds me of "Dopplegangland" when Buffy, Xander, & Giles know that Willow is dead/& alive... and then Angel walks in, does a double take, and then puts 2 + 2 together to get 4, while everyone else knew 4 & moved on. Except, in this case, Buffy would have phoned Angel to tell him the situation, but that everything was being handled... yet Angel would still walk into the library as if no information was passed.

Did that make sense to anyone besides me?
I had started to make an alert meter (because it didn't look like anyone else was going to) but if Saje is on it, more power to him.
Here's what I had, in case anyone was interested. I was thinking community votable...
That is seriously making me laugh every time I look at it.
That's GREAT, snakebyte! I actually ended up using it as my desktop (that way I don't have to choose a comic book cover).

I love how the purple is "low", as if we're saited with Jossness.

I wouldn't recommend making it votable, though. Us, with our opinions & altered panic states? Meters should have democracy. :)

I lied about Saje's participation.

You rock! *claps for fan action*
Ah, the Internet, the greatest game of telephone ever played. "Hey, did you hear that Joss coughed on the set of Dollhouse today?" becomes, "Hey, did you hear that Joss sneezed on the set of House today, causing the direction of the wind to change, thereby sinking New Hampshire, postponing winter, and killing all puppies?"

I'll repeat what every other sane person here has been saying:

DO NOT PANIC.

And definite props, snakebyte. Hilarious.
You know, I'm not seeing this panic that everyone is warning eveyrone else against. 130 posts and about 90 percent are, "this is nothing". That's kind of the opposite of panic.
Sadly, that 90 percent is saying "this is nothing" in their library voices, while the other 10 percent are saying "PANIC" in their "RICOLA" voices with the help of the of that horn they use in those Ricola commercials. :D
Panic Picnic! Temperature's right. Bring cheese. Whine optional. Milk, for all it's worth, a must. Meet at the Dollhouse.
The only thing that's begun is the invasion of our reality-based community by unnecessary Dollhouse fan freak-outs.

Dude.
Dude.

[ edited by snakebyte on 2008-09-12 06:03 ]
I had started to make an alert meter (because it didn't look like anyone else was going to) but if Saje is on it, more power to him.
Here's what I had, in case anyone was interested. I was thinking community votable...


Dude, that's so awesome I'm posting it in my LJ. Will credit. *yoink*
Dude.


Dude.

[ edited by electricspacegirl on 2008-09-12 06:53 ]
So according to Caroline, Joss Whedon and U2 have stopped what they're doing to make a giant "Dollhouse" music video together? (Do I know how to create extraneous leaps of deduction or what?)

For the incredibly confused among those reading this thread, please do not panic *or* take the above seriously. For those who are not incredibly confused, but are reading this thread, you may panic, but please don't take it seriously. And for those who know where they are, and care, but don't drink, thank you for being a fan of "Kentucky Fried Movie" :)
So according to Caroline, Joss Whedon and U2 have stopped what they're doing to make a giant "Dollhouse" music video together?


OMG!!! So much love for that idea. Somebody, make it so!

[ edited by electricspacegirl on 2008-09-12 07:11 ]
If Joss and U2 combined to make anything, my little fanboy heart would explode at even a hint of that becoming true. So, please Joss and U2, don't do that to me. That means one less viewer for your show, and one less listener to the new album.

Oh, yeah, I heard The Edge posts here at Buffyrocker234. :D
Sure. No prob. I'll have my genie get on that immediately.

Is everyone hungry or something?
I'm not an expert on all the pre-debut "Dollhouse" scuttlebutt, but I would think that if the main character of a show has no free will and doesn't have a consistent personality, then the level of difficulty is raised quite a bit.
Sure. No prob. I'll have my genie get on that immediately.

Is everyone hungry or something?


Pizza! Oh, are you not offering?
I can't copy to quote on this crap system I'm on, but I don't find b!x's surmise that the rumor may be coming from Fox network marketing very comforting. Hasn't pretty much every respectable doomsayer (there are some) on the downfall of the industry been saying it's because of the increasing power of marketing over creative and development? Cliche, but with foundation?

Not panicking. Guarded sounds right, but then that's my equilibrium state.
Dude.

Dude.

Here's what I had, in case anyone was interested. I was thinking community votable...

Hah, nice work snakebyte (and reports of my doing it have been greatly totally made up by that scallywag korkster ;).

... and also can start bouncing around the echo chamber until it becomes so loud that outsiders start thinking something IS wrong with production on the show.

That's about the most legitimate actual worry to come out of this IMO. People have a "no smoke without fire" mentality about these things and everywhere but especially on the net, there's this idea that if enough people think a wrong thing then "there must be something to it".

Nail on the head, Saje. In fact I've even heard rumors they torture people with nails on the head, so go figure

Yep, in fact that rumour has now appeared on enough websites to make it completely true ;).
snakebyte, I found good use for your Whedon Panic Meter. :D
Whedonesque is very educational this morning! I'm going to grate some cheese and do some baking and some no-baking, while being nice and chilling, and alternately panicking and not-panicking. Whee!
If I see Joss himself post and say "They're screwing me over," then I'll panic... for all of five seconds. Then I'll go back to reading my Buffy comic and working on my Buffy fanfic.

Joss is a genius. We know it. He knows it. It's completely obvious to all but the pointy-haired crowd. As for suits, suits will do as suits will.
Here's what I had, in case anyone was interested. I was thinking community votable...

I was dreading seeing someone make this thing for real, but that's pretty damn cool.
dreamlogic, somehow I missed where b1x said that there was a rumor coming from FBC marketing. I can't see where FBC marketing has been involved in any of this kerfuffle. The only statements we have are from PR (separate department) at 20th (separate company).
I said what I did because the article itself, after babbling about the matter, went out of its way to include this:
It’s worth noting that internal debates over shows are standard operating procedure inside networks, and that different factions within a network—such as marketing or development—might disagree about a show’s potential.

Journalistically, there's no reason to include that paragraph except as a signal that what the writer was hearing was not coming from development. And the sorts of alleged issues the writer claims were being mentioned to him are just the sorts of issues that some marketing weenie would be troubled over.

[ edited by theonetruebix on 2008-09-12 18:24 ]
So... conjecture about conjecture? I understand the leap, I just think it should be called out as a leap and not interpreted as fact.
When I posted that paragraph the first time, what I said was: "I rather suspect..." I never claimed it was fact. If anyone else turned it into something else, that's their fault.

[ edited by theonetruebix on 2008-09-12 18:35 ]
Don't forget that we can likely get Homeland Security money for our Whedon Panic Level Meter. DHS loves color coded projects directly related to panic - it's a thing. I'm thinking whoever is pursuing this should start applying for grants immediately. ;)

And the "rumored" Dollhouse and U2 collaboration = fangasm. So see with all the crazy conjecturing/speculation/panic going on in the thread I found the happy. And I happen to like my happy completely fictional/irrational.
That is why I questioned dreamlogic's leap about your leap about the leap by the writer of the article, bix. That is a busy frog in that sentence. :)
Purple is the new black?
I'd like to commend b!x on his eloquent usage of the word, weenie.

I'm surprised it took 150+ posts in a thread with a title that contains "Fox Executives" for the term weenie to appear.
Just saw this over at TWoP: TWoP 10 Reasons Joss Whedon Fans Should Be Nervous About Dollhouse. I'd put it as a main page post, but I think may be better linked here, since most items on the list have already been rebuked here. However, they may have a couple of valid points, specifically #3 and #8.
Sadly, any good points they may have are somewhat undermined by

9. Amy Acker's a showkiller.

Uh huh. Okaaayyy *backs away slowly*.

(that has to be a joke, right ?)
She killed Firefly without being anywhere near it! Fact. I love how she's considered unlucky for being in Angel later in its lifetime and in Drive, yet the next item equates Nathan Fillion's magic with Neil Patrick Harris's.

Also, a few tv shows have survived without Neil Patrick Harris. He's pretty important but I'd argue that he's not required to stay on the air.

Listmaker, have we met Captain Logic?
To be fair, my use of weenie was more of a slap at marketing-think than a slap at FOX. ;)
The initial premise in the TWOP list that things are being "changed" is not supported by the reported facts. It is pure conjecture and panic mongering. Clarification, and improving scripts is not "changing" the show. It is normal operating procedure.
Also, that TWOP list is one of the most stupid and pointless things I've seen yet in all of this. (Which is not me saying it should not have been mentioned here; it's me saying it should never have been written.)
If they spend too much time fiddling around with the first couple episodes, will the rest of the season be crap? Or are they hoping it will get easier? Because for the record, it doesn't.

Yeah, I'm sure Joss has no idea how to sustain quality over a 13-episode season.
Listmaker, have we met Captain Logic?

Or even Corporal Common Sense ? As you say Sunfire, even their illogic is illogical. Why stop there, why not "11. Joss may not have sacrificed enough goats to the TV Gods, woooooo, ooga-booga !"


... should we maybe sacrifice a few goats ?

(as to Fringe not setting the world alight ratings wise, that could go either way, it might lead to an even bigger push and more support for 'Dollhouse'. Though, admittedly, it might also make people nervous)
My intention with posting the TWoP thing was not to debate what they got wrong, but rather to spark some discussion on what they might have gotten right.

And, actually, #3 is pretty old news, with many examples: Arrested Development, Veronica Mars, Firefly, etc. All great shows that no one watched.

As far as the Fringe numbers go...well, yeah, it didn't do great, but the ratings weren't show-canceling-awful either. They won the 18-49 demo, I believe, and also showed gains at the half hour. Plus, they'll have House leading them in next week. I think at this point we just need to wait and see how it does.
Here is another thing they forgot.

12) The shorthand title of Dollhouse will be DH, which has the same shorthand as Desperate Housewives and people will be confused thinking Desperate Housewives is on ABC and Fox.
I think the TWOP list is great. It really is a step away from being a list of tv superstitions.

1. Hire only lucky actors. See enclosed list.
2. Ensure that directors have access to Emmy statues from previously successful shows and rub them often.
3. Be kind to goats.
And, DH also stands for Dr. Horrible, so while "10. It doesn't have Dr. Horrible's NPH in it." is true, it does partake of NPH's character's initials.
JMaloney, I think is also important to remember that NO show (except maybe American idol and other reality/game shows) pulls the kinds of numbers that hit shows got last year or two years ago. However, advertisers are still spending the same amounts of money on these shows. The networks are simply demanding more money for less viewers and as long as that is still feasible then a show with 7-9 million viewers that wins the demo for the night will be a raging success. People get too caught up in the hard number without seeing it in the larger context of the new network reality.
13) It won't have James Marsters cheekbones. It's a rare-known fact that cheekbones enthusiasts comprise of 1/10th of the Buffy fanbase.
Joss could rename the show to No Problem House. Then it would have NPH and no problems. It's so easy. What does the show need dolls for anyway?
Ok. I'm gonna cry now. I want Dollhouse. I want it to be complex and all those complex things Joss does. I just hope it does not get canceled.
TWOP also say that the WB decided to "Dump" Buffy. I seem to remember that they wanted it, but just didn't want to pay more for it and UPN swooped in?
(delete)

[ edited by Pumps on 2008-09-12 22:51 ]
Perhaps Fox execs would like it to be more like that new "Blank Slate":

A girl on death row who can't remember who she is, gets a reprieve when she is recruited by a secret FBI unit who solves crimes, by implanting the finale memories of murder victims in her mind. While she chases leads in the memories of other people she is haunted by the echos of her own life... a life she doesn't remember.
As far as the Fringe numbers go...well, yeah, it didn't do great, but the ratings weren't show-canceling-awful either.

Also, Fringe pilot was leaked on the Web months ago, and I suspect a lot of people who REALLY wanted to see it, had seen it by the time of its first official airing. The question is, how many viewers will come back for the second episode.
Great... now Nikki Finke at Deadline Hollywood Daily has mentioned the shut-down in her story titled "Lotsa Trouble Inside Network Fall Skeds".
At some point all of these types of articles are going to be as ignored as the Emergency Broadcast System.
Nikki appears to have lost the ability to hit return to create new paragraphs.
Since Nikki calls the show The Ex List by the wrong name, I wouldn't put much weight on her recycling of Dollhouse info.
Nikki appears to have lost the ability to hit return to create new paragraphs.

Breaking news cannot wait for paragraph breaks. Ech, that entry reminds me why I stopped reading her site after the strike.
My google alerts email is now filled with sites about production being pushed back. And one I can't tell if it's a spoof or not. Bad sushi? (ETS-Ok. I see now that it really is a joke site.)

And in each one, they lead off with how 'fans were a buzz' when really, I don't think it's the fans that are doing anything. (Except making perv videos, apparently. ;) )

[ edited by NYPinTA on 2008-09-13 05:50 ]
Thanks for that, NYPinTA, I bookmarked that site. :)

I don't like key lime pie (reminds me of Miami which reminds me of Very Bad Things) or marshmallows, but now I'm hungry. (All the funny stuff made it impossible to eat my carrot cake without endangering my keyboard).
If Dollhouse is half as entertaining as this thread, we're rolling in puppies. :)
Does anyone else wish Dollhouse was developed in total secrecy, and only revealed as Joss's new project a fortnight before the premiere? Just to avoid fourteen months of web-wide freakouts and negativity.
Effulgent: Yes, I do. Ignorance used to be bliss.
I wrote something about the Dollhouse shutdown here. Ultimately, people don't need to panic, or worry, or anything. Yeah, there's production problems and the network is busy being the network, but read that article and there's an example of another show which had production problems back in the day.

[ edited by gossi on 2008-09-13 13:31 ]
PANIC! Wait? We're done panicking? But that means I bought all this water and bread for nothing!

And what am I going to do with this tinfoil hat?
I'm confused by the "confusing and hard to follow" part.
Honestly. How/who do these people do to get their jobs? Have they never read a book that had more than 2 characters in it? That followed multiple plot lines with an over arching mythology?
Did they ever watch a TV series like The X-Files? Or Buffy?
Why are these people "confused"?
If in-house disagreements like this are the norm than there's nothing to worry about. Having said that, if any FOX executives are afraid that the general public won't be able to follow a complex genre show than they haven't been paying attention to the industry during the last twenty years.

Ever since "Crime Story", "Wiseguy" and "Twin Peaks" debuted from '86 to '90 television has been getting more and more complex. Most of these intelligent and complicated shows have become critically acclaimed cult hits: Homicide, DS9, B5, Murder One, Buffy, Angel, Farscape, Veronica Mars, Battlestar Galactica, The Wire, The Shield, Alias, Carnivale, Deadwood, Firefly, Millennium, etc. These shows are going to be steady sellers on the home video market for several decades.

Then you have shows like The Sopranos, The West Wing and 24. These shows have been nationwide ratings blockbusters, showing that viewers are receptive to intelligent and well made programing. And what about The X-Files and Lost? They're arguably the most complex shows ever made in any genre and they became worldwide phenomenons.

Pizza! Oh, are you not offering?
electricspacegirl | September 12, 08:10 CET


Well, I wasn't going to cook, ESG, but anything for you. :)

You know, it's funny... here I am, ignoring the fire alarm going off because I'm having such a good time not panicking. :)

Likewithpie, tinfoil hat + head = fun, plus good reception with TV.

I'm almost inclined to agree with you, Caroline. It was such a wonderful surprise when we first found out about Dollhouse, and we're having so much fun panicking/not panicking about it. I wonder though if I could give up the close "connection" we have with Joss just to post-pone my surprise. Sorry, I want to have my cake & eat it too.
I've said it before, just like Echo we should all be able to get our minds wiped the day before the first episode airs so we forget everything we've heard about and just go "Oh look, a new show. That sounds cool"

And I just watched the first episode of a UK show called Spooks: Code 9, and if possible I'd like to forget that. Permanently.
Alright, zz9, I can wipe that awful show away for you, but it'll cost you 5 years of servitude.
I've seen 'Spooks: Code 9' too and trust me korkster, 5 years is a bargain.
Hmmm... well I didn't want to overcharge, Saje. Alright, how about 5 years + 1st born child? That way I can brood my own Whedon army, complete with lyrics, super-human strength, affinity towards the color purple, & a strange tingling sensation when they hear the word "shiny".

BTW, peanut butter cookies are the bomb! *eats one now*
Thanks for the offer Korkster, I'm shoving pencils up my nose with a hammer to try and kill off the memory but if that doesn't work I'll call.
We spend all our time here discussing great (Whedon) shows so it's a shock to mention something so bad. It was dire. First episode opened with two pairs of agents on separate covert missions, both got found out (tipping off the baddies), held at gunpoint and close to death but managed to escape, just. And what did their boss say at the debriefing? "Good work guys. Keep it up"
Just a complete heap of cliche characters, plot holes, dire dialogue and stupid FX.
I'm going to watch the second episode tomorrow, just to see if it's as bad.
Oh, that's too bad. I like Spooks (MI-5 over here). Especially Ruth.
Never heard of Code 9.

Sorry, off topic, I know. But at least I'm not panicking. :)
And if it's just as bad, zz9, where will you shove the pencils then?

Thinking it's silly how we suject ourselves to torture... lead me to silly... then to fool... which gave me this bright chap:

"There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again." —Nashville, Tenn., Sept. 17, 2002


Hmmm... it's better if you hear it.

No offense to you, but gotta to include my man Bush when & where possible, you know? I'm gonna miss him- very entertaining.
:)
When Joss said "fulfill their every fantasy" as the premise, the FOX executives probly thought "ooohhhh, sexy!" and forgot this was joss and it might be more like "My daughter wants to meet an elf" and "I want to see my dead sister one more time" and stuff like that than kink.

Please Fox just let him do his thing, ok? Fox executives make me tired.
Now io9 has recycled the same story. Not posting a link here, 'cause they add nothing new (and also I'm not sure how to insert links into posts). Dollhouse is in more danger from these speculations based on speculations, than it is from Fox.
korkster, that was a great YouTube link. ;-)
I wonder if Letterman has grabbed that one for his "great moments in presidential speeches" bit? (Don't watch talk shows that often).
Was my news posting (okay, "news") about TwoP's [admittedly probably inflaming] article too redundant to keep ? I guess it's all been discussed to death in this thread already.

Fair enough, was just curious why it got deleted, mods. No big deal.

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