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September 16 2008

12 weakest deaths in science fiction history. io9 list Shepherd Book at #12, "...he feels like a throwaway character in the movie, and his death is pretty pointless.".

[ edited by Beth'll on 2008-09-16 13:35 ]

His death changes the lead character in a way nothing else we saw (present day) in the series did. So it's not pointless to me. I read a version (by joss) of Serenity prior to Book's death going in, and.. you know.. I don't think Book had a single reason for being in that script.

[ edited by gossi on 2008-09-16 09:41 ]
It also serves a meta-textual purpose in that it gets "the death" out of the way which makes Wash's death all the more shocking. Let's be honest, most of us probably suspected someone from the crew was going to shuffle off and after Book went I sort of relaxed a bit. Then Wash went and suddenly all bets were completely off, anyone could go at any time.

Most of those make sense to me otherwise though, my only other major disagreement being Beckett from 'Stargate: Atlantis' which I thought was really nicely done and actually quite touching. And to mention Janet Frasier's death as in any way unsatisfying is just barmy to me, 'Heroes 1 & 2' where she dies are arguably some of the best episodes in 'Stargate: SG1'. OK, maybe her actual death wasn't grand or operatic but that's what made it so amazingly heroic IMO - she was just doing her job - and the response of the other characters was well written and played.

But Kirk dying on a foot-bridge rather than the bridge of the Enterprise is a travesty (I still wonder if that's actually a very bad joke by the writer), Trip was a throw-away kick in the teeth to 'Enterprise' fans (of which I wasn't by that point but it still rankled), Trinity was just stupid after the massive heroics in the second film to save her - when Neo literally pulls the world apart to reach her in time - but top of the list for me is probably Hicks and Newt who, after 'Aliens', deserved a much better end than they were given. A real slap in the face to the audience which soured me on 'Alien 3' practically from the start (shame, it's got a lot going for it apart from that, flawed though it is IMO).
I'd say that Book was possibly underused in Serenity, but in no way was his death pointless or throwaway.

The only thing disappointing about Beckett's death was that it happened at all. Easily one of my three favourite characters on either Stargate series. Beckett-2 kinda makes up for the loss but I still think they could have made it so that it was the clone that had died. Maybe I'm being cloneist.

Kirk's death, no matter how foreshadowed it might have been by Star Trek V, was probably the point where I started to lose my love of Trek. After they killed Starfleet's Greatest off in such a poor fashion I really began to lose interest in what the franchise was about. Such a waste.
Apparently, in the original version of the script, Kirk's death was so lame it made the one that actually got filmed look like Davy Crockett going down at the Alamo by comparison. And yeah, that's the movie that lost me. I haven't seen one since.
To be fair, I did stick with Trek, even after Generations. DS9 was still as brilliant as it ever was and that was before Voyager evolved into the mind-numbing bore that it eventually became. Even some of the later movies were very good. First Contact is probably one of my top two Trek movies of the series.

Kirk's death simply represents the end of my true dedication to Star Trek. I was never what you could call a true Trekkie but Trek really was the first television show that got me addicted enough to never miss it. It was only after watching Generations that this changed and Trek became just another show to watch. Kirk's death in such a pointless fashion really did destroy the Trek magic for me.

That said, I'm surprisingly interested to see what this new Trek movie will turn out like. If Abrams ends the movie with the younger Kirk choking on a chicken bone or something, I'll not be happy.
Kirk's death makes me cry. Every time, against my better judgement.

And Shatner brought him back in the books anyway :)
If Abrams ends the movie with the younger Kirk choking on a chicken bone or something, I'll not be happy.

They're the hidden menace in our homes (and spaceships).

Yeah 'First Contact' is the best Next Gen film I reckon and can hold its head up beside the lesser original cast movies (it's certainly no 'Wrath of Khan' or 'Undiscovered Country' IMO). Kirk's death is easily one of the best examples of a script that misses the point completely, terrible end for an iconic character (makes me sad that Ron Moore had anything to do with it). It's just so small, y'know ?

'Voyager' was a wasted opportunity, the first female captain in a series and they end up making her a petty martinet. Picard showed you can be authoritarian without being unsympathetic, pity they didn't manage it with Janeway (and what a great chance to expand on what DS9 did and really examine the precepts of the Federation from the outside, instead we're just shown that Janeway's way is correct, no matter how "off message" she goes).
In fact, long ago I posted a long response where I went over how I had figured out that 2 people were going to die in Serenity, and why I thought the likeliest 2 were Wash and Book. I'll spare you all the analysis again, but there are parts of this new analysis that I agree with; Book's death was indeed a plot device (and yes, I know, everything in a story is a plot device- but bear with me) which was designed to do nothing more than force Mal to see that he did have faith, just not the kind he always associated with the word. It was taking his mentor away, very much in the "Hero's Journey" mode, and completely and utterly predictable as a result. That it worked is a different matter here with regard to the analysis; it was otherwise not much a death and never seen on-screen, and completely within Joss' "death is my king" mode of writing.
Actually I found Book's death scene to be one of the most memorable moments of the movie.

"I don't care what you believe. Just believe it!"

While it had less overt action than most of the movie, it included the most concise & direct message, and that stuck with me. That's a tribute both to Joss's writing and Ron's acting.
Even if, on the face of it, it's actually a pretty silly message (IMO).

[ edited by Saje on 2008-09-16 13:44 ]
I believe I'll have another drink! :-)
saje: Let's be honest, most of us probably suspected someone from the crew was going to shuffle off and after Book went I sort of relaxed a bit. Then Wash went and suddenly all bets were completely off, anyone could go at any time.

Yep. But that was because I got spoiled on sm.com about Wash. And when Book died, I was upset but a little voice said, "oh, it was Book that dies. So that means Wash is safe." Ha. Hahahahahahaha. Haha. What was I thinking?? So when Wash did get massively stabbed, I was just in shock and then the rest of the movie just kind of happened. As much as I swore in my head at a certain writey person, it had the affect it was supposed to.
My sister semi-spoiled me on a death (she's a serious spoiler-phile and actually sometimes reads the end of books etc. before she gets there - baffles me, crazy woman ;) and just the hint that someone died almost had me run screaming away from her (bad news for us both since I was driving at the time ;).
Sarah Connor's off screen death is what kept me out of the theatre for Terminator 3.

For me, Sarah Connor was the whole point of the Terminator series.
"and what a great chance to expand on what DS9 did and really examine the precepts of the Federation from the outside, instead we're just shown that Janeway's way is correct, no matter how "off message" she goes"

Voyager's basic premise had the potential to take the space-opera theme they developed so well with Deep Space 9 (not to mention Babylon 5, at the time) and really use it to it's full effect. The DS9 station actually felt more cut off from the rest of the Federation than Voyager did at times.

What has now been done with the updated Battlestar Galactica is basically what Voyager needed to be. A ship alone, on the run, trying to find it's home whilst doing what it can to survive and stay in one piece. Instead the handy Next Gen reset button was used at the end of every single episode and the Voyager that made it home at the end of season seven looked almost as shiny and new as it did when it was pulled to the Delta Quadrant in the first place, maybe with a few less crew members onboard.

As you said, wasted opportunity to see a Starleet crew in a truly alien environment, dealing with a situation they could never have been prepared for.

Plus, the Kazon were rubbish.
Man, pre-Serenity was very hard for me. I was a spoiler junky during the last seasons of BUFFY and ANGEL. So I actually had to make sure to avoid any place that might let something slip, and my finger was quick to click away at the mere sight of Firefly or Serenity. I buried myself in the fan fiction world (never was into Firefly fics) until I saw the movie. So I was shocked to see two of our crew die. Wash was of course Tara for me all over again - action, run, action... no time to mourner. Book was slow and I dealt with it although it still saddens me that we didn't see much of him in the movie and annoyed me a bit because I was expecting to learn what deep dark secrets the Shepherd had.
A ship alone, on the run, trying to find it's home whilst doing what it can to survive and stay in one piece.

Exactly. They could've questioned every single Federation rule, tested them to destruction and shown us how truly noble the Federation ideal is (or not). Totally bottled it IMO.

DS9 bringing 'Section 31' into the mix was a master-stroke IMO, it really started asking the questions a lot of people (even fairly big fans like me) had been asking for a while about the quasi-fascistic leanings of the Federation.

The way Janeway forced Seven to become (nearly) human when she'd expressed a clear wish to return to the Collective was ripe for development and to ask the same questions about the hazards of liberalism and forced conformity to a social norm endemic in the Federation but it was totally glossed over and Janeway's decision was (as far as I know) never questioned (in fact Seven may even thank her for it, not sure about that, I didn't watch later 'Voyager' very closely).

And yeah, episodes like 'Year of Hell' where they could've really shaken up the status quo were just totally reset, in old Trek stylee. What a waste.
I didn't really watch Voyager, sad to hear more reinforcement of its disappointing aspects as expressed to me by many who had. DS9 uber alles, etc. gossi's right re: the kitchen sink draft of Serenity, Book seemed totally pointless in that and he does serve at least some purpose in the shooting script.
Glad to see Boba Fett get a mention. He might be a minor character that got blown out of all proportion, but still, what a lame death that was.
I've been reading the comments from this article on the io9 site. A lot of posters over there have the same opinion as I do of Boba Fett's death, which is, he really wasn't all that badass and I didn't really feel cheated when he fell into the pit. Rather, when it happened, I recall feeling smug satisfaction that someone so slimy should end up as gross monster food.

Marcus Cole though was totally shafted. His death was completely pointless when Claudia Christian did not come back for the 5th season. (Whether she left the show or was fired is still debated however.)
Fett having his legs ripped off by Spike in Smashed was probably a more fitting and deserving end than the one he was given in the movie.

Don't know if anyone here in the UK saw Bring Back... Star Wars last Sunday night but there was a very amusing discussion about that particular death scene between Justin Lee Collins (that's his name, right?) and the actor who played Boba Fett. If you can track it down (YouTube, perhaps?) then give it a listen.
All that needs to be said is: No death is pointless for Mr. Whedon. This pinpoints that ANYONE can die in his stories. ALL the characters are at risk, even the ones that we don't expect. That's what makes us fear for them; makes us bond with them more.

EDIT: Heck, Echo might die, moving the focus to one of the other actives and introducing another. You never know. You would think that wouldn't happen... but this is Mr. Whedon.

[ edited by TheGamut on 2008-09-16 16:34 ]
It also serves a meta-textual purpose in that it gets "the death" out of the way which makes Wash's death all the more shocking.

Hah. Exactly what I was arguing back in mid-2005 when this question was all the rage.

Also gossi is quite right. In an earlier draft, Book was in the movie more, but he mattered not at all. In the film, he's in it less, but matters a good deal more.

[ edited by theonetruebix on 2008-09-16 16:44 ]
Hah. Exactly what I was arguing back in mid-2005 when this question was all the rage.

'kin' 'ell, you even say "all bets are off" about Wash's death. Maybe this is a glitch in the Matrix ?
I love Book's death, if only because it has one of my favorite bits of dialogue in the whole movie. "Can't order me around, boy, I'm not part of your crew." "Yes you are." That just makes me tear up every time. I, personally, was hoping for more Book in the movie, too, but while he isn't there a lot, he plays a very important role.

Personally, I didn't care much about Kirk's death. Maybe that's because I'm one of the generation of Star Trek fans who watched TNG before they really got in to TOS, and really DS9 is my favorite of all the Treks. But Marcus's death on Babylon 5? That annoyed me so much- he was my favorite character. I pretty much gave up on the show after that.
"No death is pointless for Mr. Whedon. This pinpoints that ANYONE can die in his stories. ALL the characters are at risk, even the ones that we don't expect. That's what makes us fear for them; makes us bond with them more."

Not me. I now refuse to invest in any Jossian character for this very reason. But also, think of what you are saying- you are repeating what has been said long and hard and everywhere about Joss's writing, something we all know. Any writer who uses the same tactics over and over again runs the risk of becoming predictable, and death in Joss' world is very much predictable. It is only a question of whom.
Did anybody else see the movie before seeing the TV show? I guess both Book's death and Wash's fall a little flat if you haven't already seen the show and had a chance to love them. With Book, I was just confused... who is this guy and why am I obviously supposed to care? If you have seen the show, then I suppose the death provides a turning point for Mal that makes perfect story-sense, and also tells the viewer that no character is safe (although the idea that "there has to be a cost" or "the audience can't feel safe" alone falls a bit flat for me, especially when compared with "character deaths" that have much deeper resonances and consequences for the story and the surviving characters). But if you're seeing the movie with no previous knowledge of the characters, Book feels random (or... did for me, I should say) and Wash's death just feels sudden and ... not much else.

I did enjoy the movie when I first saw it. Then I watched the TV show, which I truly, truly loved. Watching the movie again after that just made me sad... for what might have been, and for a story that should have been a full season and would have been incredibly powerful if told in full. I could just imagine, in that case, what Wash's death would have meant for the Mal-Zoe relationship much further down the line. But I'm getting off-topic... the death of a favorite show, rather than weak character deaths!

I haven't seen any of the other deaths except Boba Fett's, which was decidedly lame!
Not me. I now refuse to invest in any Jossian character for this very reason.


Yeah, I agree. This is why I refuse to get to know anyone in Real Lifetm, too. Eventually, they all die, so why bother?

tweak
Ha ha, true enough, death is about as predictable as it gets! If a few more people would try not dying, life would be much more suspenseful.
I hear shares in Echo are plummeting this week due to low fan confidence.
Ironically, shares in "confidence in fandom" are also plummeting as we speak ;).
Internet Rumormill, Inc. is willing to buy them at firesale prices. It's always eager for the kinds of properties that have a lot of potential for growth at low truth investment.
catherine, I'm trying not dying. 28+ year of success so far.
Hah hah, you guys. You know what I mean. I am waiitng for the Joss story that does not feature someone dying. I could be waiting a very long time.
Nobody died in Firefly, does that count? I'm trying to remember if he killed off anyone in his stretch on Runaways.
kishi, he killed off some supporting characters that were exclusive to that Runaways arc, but none of the main characters. Although he did commit two of the long-running villains to a fate worse than death (or a fate worse than death leading up to their inevitable deaths, if indeed all the in the comic's first volume).

Xane said:
"Sarah Connor's off screen death is what kept me out of the theatre for Terminator 3."

I was bummed to hear that she wouldn't be in it (we went the premiere weekend), but I wasn't going to let it keep me away, especially with Claire Danes and Nick Stahl in the film (though I hate recasts, Edward Furlong didn't feel so essential to the franchise and I've liked Stahl in almost everything I've seen him in). Although I wasn't really spoiled, so I went in hoping that they would have a surprise Linda Hamilton appearance. It sucked how they killed her off, right down to the explanation, but at the very least she was mentioned. #3 isn't a great film, though I do like the downer ending. The look of loss and horror on the main characters' faces, then the scene of the bombs launching and their smoke trails criss-crossing all over the world. Beautiful in its horribleness. But that was one of the few redeeming things about the film, otherwise it was just a very mediocre action/sci-fi romp. Hoping for better things from the Christian Bale fourth Terminator (Another recast, gah. Why no Nick Stahl ? Are they completely ignoring T3 ?) and The Sarah Connor Chronicles when I get around to that.

"For me, Sarah Connor was the whole point of the Terminator series."

She was for me too. She was the core of the first two films.

Saje and the article mentioned Trip from Enterprise. Yeah, it blew, and I watched all four seasons. Season 1 was mediocre and might've had a few good episodes, can't remember. Season 2 was better and had two or three great episodes. Season 3 was the Xindi Season-long arc and that met with varying degrees of failure and success. Season 4 had a bunch of 3-episode mini-arcs from what I recall, some good, some bad. Which season was the one with the Trip clone ? That one made me cry. Okay Trip and T'Pol grabbing eachother's hands after their baby died got me a little too, despite that concluding arc with the Robocop dude as the villain being pretty weak.

Enterprise was almost exactly like Smallville (though usually with less cheese) in how it would tease you with the occasionally good episode but overall it would just feel like it was squandering its potential and the talents of a number of its cast members. Actually that's another of the show's sins, the character development was very slow or nonexistant. Four seasons of almost nothing in that department. It basically only used its three main leads (Archer, T'Pol, and Trip, and they were used well for the most part, especially after Trip became more worthwhile of a character beyond just being the southern fried bit of humor and "Vulcans suck"-isms) and barely gave any attention to Phlox (though at least he got some focal eps), Reed (less so than Phlox) and Hoshi and Mayweather, who basically didn't exist.

Trip's death was so beyond lame.
Death, in reality, is often pointless.
Well, in Firefly, it ended too early and he never got to complete the story he wanted to tell. Ergo, Serenity.
Death, in reality, is often pointless.

I kept trying to argue this in another thread recently and it didn't go over very well. Heh.
Off-topic first: hm, I definitely like Captain Janeway more than Saje does. In fact, overall, while I agree that Voyager missed its possible potential, just as far as characters go, I'm more fond of most all of the Voyager crew than I am of TNG's. (Not that ol' Captain Pico's not an interesting character; and Riker's fine - as long as he has his beard ;) ; I quite like Worf, but that's certainly helped by his time on what I, too, feel is the best Trek overall, DS9:).)

And Book. Sigh. Glad to see him acknowledged on such a list, though I agree that his death was indeed pointy. And Ron Glass did such a fantastic job of it (with Nathan Fillion providing an excellent partner, of course). Probably half of the reason that I really wish that there could have been several more Shepherd scenes in the film is so that Mr. Glass, who seems to be such a great guy, could've had even more to do with a character he clearly loved playing so much. (The remainder of the reason, of course, is that Book was just such an interesting character.)

And some of you have gotten to read the "kitchen sink" Serenity script?? *is jealous*
I like the deaths that end in pointy stakes. But I do agree with you bix on the pointless notion.

Which makes me wonder if this "weakest deaths" furthur proves the argument. So Fett died in what some think was a "lame" way. How should he have gone out? Guns a'blazing? Or Kirk (I liked Generations). He went on the whole journey with Picard just to... die. On a barren rock. I would think that all deaths are lame because they do not truly express the life they had just taken. Even if Buffy grow old & withering & forgot where she put her teeth... is that any resemblance to the power & affect she had on people's lives when she saved them? Or jumping into a giant energy rift. Sure we were with her when she jumped, and we knew what she thought, but often times we don't get that luxury of a person's death. Her friends didn't. If they did, do you think they would have chanced bringing her back? Dead body laying on rubble is not the Buffy Anne Summers they knew & loved; could that be construed as "lame" as well?
Well, we do expect different things from stories than from real life (sez Miss States-the-Obvious) and so while death in the real world is a huge pointless miserable cliche, a fictional death should serve a purpose, as should everything that happens in the story. That purpose might be just to make us sad, or it might be to further the plot in specific ways, but in any case, it's there for a reason. So I guess when I call a character-death "lame" I mean that it has no emotional impact, they die and my reaction is little more than "huh? that was... lame." Or when I can see the cogs turning too obviously it takes me out of the story, and that seems "lame" too. I have to say I felt a bit that way about Anya and Wash... these very sudden (rushed, even?) deaths that just said to me "somebody's gotta go and so, um, this one!" If Anya was going to die, I wanted to cry, because I loved that character. Instead I felt kind of like rolling my eyes, because it was so obvious that she was the acceptable "cost" that wouldn't make the ending utterly devastating.

And Boba Fett was awesome, so, sure, guns blazing or something, but not "heyyy... did Boba Fett just fall in the pit?"

Well done on the staying alive, BTW kishi. Who knows, you might be the first to break the mould!
yeah, the only thing stopping Joss from whipping out the death card in Firefly is that it got cancelled.
Kirk's death makes me cry. Every time, against my better judgement.

redeem147 | September 16, 12:42 CET



Yeah, me too.
Book's death was the final straw for Mal. And it totally set up the audience by making us believe that it was going to be Book and as sad as it was, everyone else was going to pull through.
Psyche!!
Joss' willingness to kill off main characters is exactly what keeps me coming back to his stories. There is much safer fare elsewhere for the more sensitive to partake in. I wish them enjoyment of that safer and blander fare.
I read these boards and I feel like I'm listening to a bunch of nine year old immortals. The point of Joss's deaths are that people frigging die, and not just some times, all the time, particularly when your characters are in danger, which is what they need to be in if you have a show. And the point of sacrificing fan happiness is at no point do you know a Joss story is returning to a Trek-like state of status quo. The best moment in any Trek show was the death of Tasha Yar, because it was like if Chekov had gotten killed and Ensign Ricky made it back. It made the show dangerous and unpredictable for a moment. Joss has proven time and again that the characters are human: they are funny, they are serious, they are sad, they are crazy, they make bad decisions, they make good decisions, and they die, sometimes with meaning, sometimes without. The point of the deaths is to affect us, not necessarily the story or anyone in it. The other point, the point of good fiction and art, which is what I believe Whedon is involved in, is teaching us things we can't learn because we haven't been through them, perhaps so we never have to. One of these lessons that I think some of you are missing is that death, as well as life, have the meaning we bring to them. Joyce's death was pointless to anyone except Buffy and all of her friends. A line in the obits, sudden and meaningless. And the more human of Joss's characters die human deaths, and human, non-fictionalized deaths are often, walk out of boat onto Normandy beach, two steps, dead. Having said that, I think Anya's death had been set up too much for the half a second we saw her die, but I also think there was no room or time to address it with the fullness of someone like Tara or Joyce or even Spike within the context of a battle. Spike returning cheapens death more than Anya's sudden demise, IMO. When I heard he was coming back as a ghost, I had relaxed a bit, and even came up with cool ideas like Spike being the pesky new conduit to the Powers That Be, but then they just made him solid again, and I sighed, sat back, and enjoyed the rest of the season, cuz at least it wasn't season 4.

One more thing I think Brian Lynch did right with bringing Wesley back. Although, screw Nina, where's Kate? I will say this on every board until someone listens. I HEART KANGEL. I think I just made that one up, cuz it sure is we todd it.

And yes, this is turning into another thread that went south very quickly. Something about a cryptozoologist or a biologist specializing in suicides, I dunno, but man was she pissed.

[ edited by PuppetDoug on 2008-09-17 08:24 ]
Uh, PuppetDoug, maybe I'm just incredibly tired, but I don't think this thread headed anywhere. Not south, for sure. And I'm not sure where Nina & Kate fit into this.

Type me puzzled on your origin.
Yeah, not sure that we've headed south at any point. This thread's been a good read, so far.

I think the only "good" thing about how Kirk died was the dialogue. The actual cause of death was in no way fitting but his last few sentences were pure Kirk. That's probably how the scene is able to gut you, even though you also know you hate that it happened that way at all.

Still wish they would consider adapting Shatner's Kirk novels into continuity.
Yeah, thread seems fine. Most people are OK with Jossian deaths, a few aren't, as you'd expect from any mixed group.

Well, we do expect different things from stories than from real life (sez Miss States-the-Obvious) and so while death in the real world is a huge pointless miserable cliche, a fictional death should serve a purpose, as should everything that happens in the story.

Exactly catherine. Sometimes the point of fictional death is just to remind us that death is usually pointless BUT they always have a point. And you also have to play within the tone of the stories you're telling - Trek is about grand, ultimately optimistic visions, it's about us at our very best and it's certainly space-opera in the truest sense of the name i.e. it's big. Big heroes die while still vital, after kicking seven bells out of the enemy, they die with frikkin' "Kiss me Hardy ... Thank God I have done my duty" as the guns blaze about, with victory (and Victory ;) assured, they don't fall off what amounts to a pedestrian foot-bridge. IMO, s'always.

I did like the dialogue for Kirk though, delivered in true Shatner/Kirk style. Not read the books, are they any good ? I tried reading one of his TekWar novels and literally couldn't get past page 2 - just appallingly clunky prose - but if the post-Generations Kirk ones are any good I might take a look.
The first of Shatner's novels to continue Kirk's story after Generations was The Return. I actually really enjoyed this story when I first read it but I'll admit that it does carry a fair amount of Shatner's style, although probably nowhere near as much as you would notice in his TekWar series.

I'd definitely recommend you give that one a try, Saje. If you find you enjoy it then the next novel in the series is Avenger. They certainly make for an interesting alternative to what the series and movies did next.

[ edited by D-Monik on 2009-08-09 23:00 ]
Cool, ta. May well have a look then. I don't read many media tie-ins but that end was so unsatisfying I may just have a read so I at least have a decent bit of fan-wankery to make the canonical pill taste sweeter ;).
Shatner's Trek novels have a weird sort of almost-canon feel to them, mainly because so many Trek fans actually prefer them to the established canon. I believe many see the Shatnerverse as being an (unofficial) alternate universe with as much of a connection to the main Star Trek timeline as the Mirror Universe has.

Just with fewer goatee beards.

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