Whedonesque : Comments on 17945 : (SPOILER) What happened when the lights went out.

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October 26 2008

(SPOILER) What happened when the lights went out. Sadly, this is not a naughty post. It's just Joss nattering on again.

I thought it was time to check in with you once again, gentle viewers. Or readers. Or pictures-looker-ats (that might be viewers). Also listeners, sniffers, haberdashers, Olympic hopefuls, the elderly, the youngerdly, and the mighty state of Oregon (go Oregon-based sports franchise!) Welcome all. Welcome... to me.

What's me up to? I'm glad me asked. Me've (I'm not doing that any more) been working on a little show called Dollhouse. Yes, perhaps you've read about how it's blazing an untrammeled path to surefire success, with nary a hitch or a hiccup, just pure blazing blazery, comet-like and meteoresque. What's that, you say? You've read other things? Dark, Yog-Sothothy rumors about shutdowns and delays? Poppycock! They’re true. But I never pass up a chance to say "poppycock". ("Balderdash" is so '07. Let it go.) I know there's been a lot of concern, various fabulous hues of panic alert readiness. So here's the skinny. Some of the names have been changed.

The show was ruined by Flim Flinear. Okay, that's another lie, and you're probably close to giving up on this blog, so here we go. Yes, we've had to make adjustments. Yes, it's been hard and I've been depressing to be around for awhile. Basically, the Network and I had different ideas about what the tone of the show would be. They bought something somewhat different than what I was selling them, which is not that uncommon in this business. Their desires were not surprising: up the stakes, make the episodes more stand-alone, stop talking about relationships and cut to the chase. Oh, and add a chase. That you can cut to. Nothing I hadn't heard before on my other shows (apparently my learning curve has no bendy part) but frustrating as hell given our circumstances - a pilot shot, scripts written, everybody marching together/gainfully employed... and then a shutdown. Glad I was for the breathing room, but it's hardly auspicious. So back into the writer cave I went, wondering why I put up with this when I can make literally dozens of dollars making internet movies. Why I do put up with this is divided into three parts.

One: They're not wrong. Oh, we don't see eye-to-eye on everything, but wanting the first episodes to be exciting and accessible is not exactly Satanic. Being Satan is, but that's in their free time and hey, there's no judging in the Dollhouse. This kind of back and forth has happened on every show I've done, so if you liked those, chances are that was a part of why. And the need to focus on the essentials of what makes this universe tick - and which wire to cut to make it stop - really does bring up our game. So we as a staff have gone from blinking like unhoused moles to delving in with the same relish we had when we started. The show is really coming together now, in a way that I believe excites us and satisfies the Network. Of course, I have no idea if anybody else will like it, but I have the same faith in the staff, the crew and the remarkable cast that I always did. More, in fact. And what's more crucial:

Two: Nothing essential has changed about the universe. The ideas and relationships that intrigued me from the start are all there (though some have shifted, more on that), and the progression of the first thirteen eps has me massively excited. The episode we're shooting now I wrote as fast as anything I have before, not because I had to (although, funny side-note: I had to) but because I couldn't stop the words from coming. Because I can feel the show talking to me; delighting, scaring and occasionally even offending me. It's alive. Alive! Which is a far cry from how I felt a month ago. It's been hilarious trying to keep up with what's in, what's out, who's met whom and when - we've shot all of the first seven episodes out of airing order - but it's come together in a pretty thrilling way. My huge gratitude to our cast for their precision and patience. Which also includes...

Three: Eliza. Watching her on the monitors at two o'clock this morning I was reminded forcibly how much I wished I were in bed – but also how strong, radiant and unmistakable her presence is. She's someone who could coast on talent and never ever does. I love to watch her work. In fact, I think I got myself into this mess for that very reason, and though I have this fall occasionally sworn never to eat lunch with an actor I like again, I’m pretty pleased and crazy proud.

So here's me, slogging away on a show like days of old and not hating life. Again, you guys will be the judge, jury and execu... lawyer, but we do have something to show you. Something, I'm chuffed to say, still pretty damn strange.

As for what's been changed, well, some things I obviously can't tell you. Some I can, for the record: The original pilot was in fact thrown out. Again, at my behest. Once it became clear what paradigm the Network was shooting for, it just didn't fit at all, even after I'd reshot more than half of it (see above re: despair). To get a sense of how completely turned around I was during this process, you should know there was a scene with Eliza and the astonishing Ashley Johnson that I wrote and shot completely differently three different times, with different characters in different places (actually I wrote it closer to eight times), and none of it will ever see air. Which is as it should be (though I'm determined to get Ms. Johnson back in the future). The scene just didn't belong anymore. Similarly, the character of November has fallen out of the mix, because the show simply moves too fast now for me to do what I wanted with her. Season three, anyone...? Happily, Miracle Laurie is still with us in a new role, playing against (and pining for) Tahmoh's character, Paul Ballard. Their chemistry is deeply nifty. The only other major cast shift is that the Dollhouse head of security, Laurence Dominic (played by Reed Diamond), who was written just for the now-defunct first ep, has stuck like fly-paper, and Reed is very much in the family for the present. (Most of my problems seem to involve my actors making themselves indispensable. This is the good problem kind.)

Apart from that, it's all hush-hush: some things I'd intended to hold back are laid out much sooner, and some are rolling out more slowly. We're still heading toward Tim's intense two-part mind-blower - right before a thirteenth ep that may actually just be insane.

And finally, young Steve DeKnight, after writing and shooting an ep so cool it helped not only define the show but save its ass, is ending his consulting duties, the f#%&er. I will be crying on the shoulder of Jane Espenson come Monday, so congratudolences are in order. Excited for the Jane Flava.

And there you have it. I'll be writing more bulletins about "Cabin" and a certain DVD in the very near future, but I wanted to get you all some actual information for a change. I can count on you guys not to tell anyone, right? What's a blog?

Faithfully, -joss.

joss | Dollhouse | 06:47 CET | 318 comments total | tags: joss post, dollhouse, poppycock

Woo Hoo! A Joss post, I suppose I should read it first, but I wanted to post first!

Edited to add: well we've waited months (months I tell you!) for a Joss post, and this one was kind of hair-raising: he starts out scaring me with the dire specter or corporate suits and his own depression, but then raising my excitement level with allusions to amazing scripts and story lines. He makes me sad about DeKnight leaving, but then thrills me with the fact that Jane Espenson is jumping on board! So Yay!!
Right?

[ edited by embers on 2008-10-26 07:03 ]

embers | October 26, 06:49 CET

I think you have a real darkside Mr Whedon, because you only seem to come out at night.

Poppycock make a comeback, finally.

But man do not read that word to quickly or to late at night or otherwise it may not appear as it seems. Because I could have swore at least one of the "o" was a "u".

Oh and hey - I say the stuff you think we will never see. Just wait I'm sure FOX squirreled it away for the DVD.

Seriously, I doubt anyone reads this site anymore, I mean why would they. Nothing ever interesting is posted here. So your secrets are safe on this side of the ether.

:D

Well maybe a few pot roast recipes every now and then but that is it.

[ edited by RavenU on 2008-10-26 07:09 ]

RavenU | October 26, 06:50 CET

Great, like I wasn't obsessed about the show already...

Thanks for checking in with us. Don't worry, mum's the word. And a perfectly good word it is, too. Very mumlike.

C. A. Bridges | October 26, 06:54 CET

Joss, you write it, we will come.
Dont worry we are all here for you and will support you forever! Whatever the tone...

Beren77 | October 26, 06:55 CET

Glad to hear- see- read- some good words on the subject, Joss. Thanks for bringing us from the dark, dirty, dank terror of unknowingness, and into the bright, slightly scary light of truth.

Seriously, would it kill them to mop unknowingness once in a while?

kishi | October 26, 06:58 CET

That post illicited a deep sigh of relief and yayness. Yes, there is a sigh of yayness. By my imperfect calculations it is just a bit over 11 weeks until we get to see the grand mess. And I mean mess in the bestest of ways.

And Oregon mentions are always welcome. There are not near enough Oregon mentions (or the correct pronunciation) in TV. Orygun, people. Orygun.

[ edited by TamaraC on 2008-10-26 07:05 ]

TamaraC | October 26, 07:04 CET

Technically, here on the west coast of the US, it's still October 25, and therefore Joss posted on my birthday. Yay me.

ETA that I meant to actually say something Dollhouse-related here, not just me-related, but got distracted. So, on that: All of the above, while obviously more specific than we've heard previously, basically matches what so many have said here before: TV can be like this, so just relax and wait until January.

Also, I don't even remember hearing Reed Diamond was in it at all, for whatever reason. But good cast catch.

(Meanwhile, since he just alluded to Cabin, can anyone tell me WTF the listing for Cabin said in two of the last three issues of Production Weekly?)

[ edited by theonetruebix on 2008-10-26 07:10 ]

The One True b!X | October 26, 07:05 CET

Thanks for the update, J-man.

Note to self: Don't read a Joss-post half asleep because it makes you drink caffeine to properly read and understand it.

Panic alert level: Carolina blue with a tinge of magenta.

crazygolfa | October 26, 07:05 CET

Excellent! I have been clicking the 'Joss Post' link for a while now thinking, 'isn't it about time'? And I suppose I was right!

I just keep on getting more and more excited about Dollhouse! Is it January yet?

Vortigun | October 26, 07:05 CET

Perma-Reed Diamond-ness! Yay!

pollaxt | October 26, 07:07 CET

All I have to add is a shout out to Dexter for keeping my brain completely enveloped until January. If not for that, I'm not sure I could contain myself during the wait. :)

mikejer | October 26, 07:09 CET

PS: I saw a trailer for the show during the World Series today. It looks bodacious. :D (Yes, I used a word that The Ex-Presidents used despite being neither an expert surfer, a criminal or a President.) Back to my point, it looked awesome.

crazygolfa | October 26, 07:10 CET

Information! Delicious purple information. So looking forward to this show.

Rachelkachel | October 26, 07:11 CET

Do not despair, Joss! Oregon will always have your back! That, and I just saw the Dollhouse commercial during the World Series tonight, and it looked great.

archon | October 26, 07:11 CET

Only one concern about the pilot being thrown out... does that mean that hilariously awesome "it's the happiest day of my life!!" scene now exists only in the trailer that's around? I really hope that managed to find it's way into the new script. But, hey, at least it's on the trailer!

KingofCretins | October 26, 07:11 CET

There was a commercial? YouTube links, people!

TamaraC | October 26, 07:16 CET

PS: I saw a trailer for the show during the World Series today.

Wait, what, where, when? I was watching. Damn it.

The One True b!X | October 26, 07:16 CET

Josspost! So since the original pilot is out, there'd be no harm if some "unnamed source" leaked it, right?

Not that I'd ever advocate that sort of behavior. Just posing the hypothetical.

Jobo | October 26, 07:18 CET

Thanks for posting Joss. Its always great to hear from you!!

My word for the day is Poppycock!

alexreager | October 26, 07:19 CET

Bix, I think it happened in the first three innings because I still was flipping between the Series and the OSU-PSU football game. I caught the last half of it.

[ edited by crazygolfa on 2008-10-26 07:22 ]

crazygolfa | October 26, 07:21 CET

Did it have new footage, crazygolfa? Or was it just a shorter version of what we've seen?

Jobo | October 26, 07:22 CET

That's what I get for deciding this was the evening in which to do all my laundry, I guess. Where's gossi, why hasn't he posted it for us somewhere.

The One True b!X | October 26, 07:22 CET

My goodness, don't I feel all toasty about my screen name now?
Thanks for checking in, always nice to be updated.
I second the post above that says Oregon will always have your back, but I mean it more singularly. Statewide too.

oregon | October 26, 07:23 CET

Jobo,

It had entirely brand-spanking new material. It had a motorcycle race or chase in it, (Which Eliza spoke about in her interview with Jimmy Kimmel a few months ago) and other shiny new material. It made me squee. :D

Let me rephrase that, the commercial-ad-trailer thingy was new to me.

ETA a missing letter.

[ edited by crazygolfa on 2008-10-26 07:37 ]

crazygolfa | October 26, 07:24 CET

Excellent! Joss-post. Can't wait til January.

Garim | October 26, 07:27 CET

Hmmm... I tired searching for a video of the Dollhouse commercial, but couldn't find it, anyone kind enough to upload it for those who didn't see it?

Was there anything new?

Vortigun | October 26, 07:28 CET

Joss-
Thanks so much. Your communication means a lot.
So excited about Dollhouse! And very interested to know that it sometimes offends you. :)

jcs | October 26, 07:28 CET

Thanks SO much for the news Joss.
It's great to know what's really happening... helps with the long long wait 'till January.
Can't wait to watch the show! Can't wait for more purple goodness!

maxsummers | October 26, 07:29 CET

Thanks for posting Joss. This sounds like cautiously good news to me - the team is good, and the product will be good. As a recent Mad Men convert, though, I'm beginning to realise how much I like TV that doesn't cut to the chase - or even have one occasionally. Or maybe it's not the chase you thought it was. Or something.

sojourner | October 26, 07:31 CET

You all have approximately 20 minutes to find me this commercial. Under penalty of, um. Well, okay, no penalty, just go anyway.

The One True b!X | October 26, 07:37 CET

Thank you Joss for keeping us informed. I'm a little sad about losing November but happy to hear Miracle is staying in the family. Is it next year yet?

thatweirdgirl | October 26, 07:38 CET

Hey, I'm in Oregon! Yay, shout out! :D

Still not worried about Dollhouse. I have faith in Joss and everybody and the entire process. I can't wait for it to actually be on my TV though.

electricspacegirl | October 26, 07:38 CET

Ah, I think we can lower the alert level to a color in the visible range again ;)

JossIzBoss | October 26, 07:40 CET

Hopefully we will be able to see the "thrown out" pilot at a later date? On dvd maybe? :D

I wish Fox would just put their complete faith in you and stop tinkering with awesomeness (also read: anything that you write.)

I wasn't before, but now I'm worried.

almost cookies | October 26, 07:41 CET

Jane! How delightful!

bojojoti | October 26, 07:44 CET

I wasn't before, but now I'm worried.

Yes, nothing like an honest bit of reassurance to... make worried people who were not worried before? What?

The One True b!X | October 26, 07:44 CET

joss: "Basically, the Network and I had different ideas about what the tone of the show would be. They bought something somewhat different than what I was selling them, which is not that uncommon in this business. Their desires were not surprising: up the stakes, make the episodes more stand-alone, stop talking about relationships and cut to the chase. Oh, and add a chase. That you can cut to."

Oh my, was this cut and paste from the announcement for Firefly's new pilot? Because I swear, my heart fell all the way to China. :( *faints from the horror*

P.S. Thanks, joss, for the eventually good news -- I am looking forward to it even more now! :)

[ edited by cabri on 2008-10-26 07:46 ]

cabri | October 26, 07:45 CET

I'm not concerned about whether or not Dollhouse is going to be good or about it being canceled right away.. but about how Fox is going to take away from it's quality. Sure, we know we are going to get a good show, but it worries me to think about how amazing it could be if they weren't trying to make it extra accessible. I have faith in Joss, I just wish Fox did.

almost cookies | October 26, 07:48 CET

Thanks for the update, Joss. I wish my writing projects would talk to me, delight me, scare me, and occasionally offend me... again. It truly is a wondrous feeling of creation.

I'm sad about the loss of November (for now), but glad Miracle Laurie gets to stick around.

Not (as) long to go now...

Braeden Fireheart | October 26, 07:52 CET

I have been waiting for a Joss post in quite a while-- there seems to be so much that has needed clarification from a first hand source.

Well, I'm looking forward to seeing Dollhouse. I actually am glad that Fox had Joss change Malcolm Reynold's character from what it was originally- I'm glad he has that sense of humor and is not just doom and gloom as he was originally meant to be.

That being said, I have a hard time having any confidence that Fox will give the show a good, honest chance. (Drive, anyone?) Hopefully it will at least get the chance that Fringe is getting, and the hope of improvement that Sarah Conner Chronicles is getting.

VeryVeryCrowded | October 26, 08:02 CET

The One True b!X | October 26, 08:03 CET

Hey long time no see!

Simon | October 26, 08:06 CET

This pleased me all six ways to Sunday!!! (And a seventh-- but I dont like to talk about that one there might be Younglings about.)

Thanks for keeping us in the loopy Joss. And nope, we wont tell nary a soul.

*is totally not linking all of her friends to this site right now*

Mums a word.

British people use....

And yes please if we non baseball people can get a link to the commercial???

Tarheelfan | October 26, 08:09 CET

b!X, some people need to see it to believe it. Fox will have to prove itself to a lot of fans.

electricspacegirl | October 26, 08:11 CET

They've already seen it to believe it: Fringe and Terminator. The reality is things happen in TV. If for some reason Dollhouse doesn't get the chance those two shows are getting, it won't prove these people right that FOX hasn't changed/isn't different. FOX has already proven they've changed/are different.

The One True b!X | October 26, 08:18 CET

Mmm. Thanks for your deliciously detail-filled blog, Joss. Great to know that things are coming together. I look forward to seeing Dollhouse when it materialises! :)

non sequitur | October 26, 08:20 CET

Yay! Josspost! Thank you for reassuring us. I just hope this keeps everyone from panicking. the show WILL go on!

dulce_serenidad | October 26, 08:24 CET

On behalf of Amalgamated Haberdashers, Trimmers & Sniffers Local 120, we thank you for your greeting and the high quality gen. My panic levels have remained guarded-to-low (bluish-purple, or purply-blueish purple) this whole time, 'cause I'm trying to stay relatively Spoiler-free (uniformed.) I'm sorry if you have had to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous disconnect - I hope everyone's on the (relatively) same page now as our Storyteller, 'cause that's the page I want to read & not the Executives. Sorry, Executives.

"...there’s no judging in the Dollhouse."

See, I didn't know that.

*stops judging the Executives and administers mind-wipe instead.*

There you go. Now listen to the suave man with the sorta-red hair and slightly high forehead and do what he tells you.

I will maintain my high level of interest in Dollhouse come what may, but I wish people would stop bugging the Jossir.

QuoterGal | October 26, 08:30 CET

I'm not as thrilled as everyone else here. Okay cool it will be really good and he's put cancellation fears at rest. But, still, I can't help thinking the show would be considerably better (and, it seems, stranger) if Joss was allowed complete control. Sure, it might be how TV works but that doesn't make me like it

Let Down | October 26, 08:48 CET

Thanks, Boss!

RobinInSeoul | October 26, 08:55 CET

Thanks, Boss- both for posting and for "putting the band back together!". Can't wait for the new show!

And happy belated birthday, theonetruebix!

OzLady | October 26, 09:08 CET

Ooh, His Royal Jossness posted! I feel all special. Even though I'm only one of somewhere around a hundred or so fans of his able to post on this site, and merely one of umpety hundredy thousands of his fans...

Any way.

YAY for new info! YAY for Joss humor! Boo silly execs who don't trust the Genius That is Joss. Boo, I say!

"Poppycock" is a very good word. nods

Jossir, I'm glad your brain is churning out all sorts of new ideas and just won't shut up. 'cause that way lies amazing stories, filled with humor, angst and scathing wit. Sometimes all at once.

I know mine's already trying to write fan fic for this show, which is silly because I only know the most basic of basics about it, and also rather frightening.

I, however, will not watch the World Series for a chance to catch the ads, being not a fan of baseball. I will have to wait for regular programming to resume to see it. And maybe when I do I'll also catch some ads for Merlin on NBC, which should be starting sometime the same month. Oooh! I hope they're not up against each other! 'cause that'd be rude, having to choose between ASH & Eliza.

ShadowQuest | October 26, 09:09 CET

Joss post! Yay! On behalf of myself and everyone I've dragged into my fandom (Jossdom?), we trust you wholeheartedly with Dollhouse and are SUPER stoked for it's arrival in January.

Looking forward to that additional information! Take care, Joss Boss, and thanks for the post! It's always a thrill to hear from you; we love that you love us. ^_~

sunshineguinn | October 26, 09:56 CET

I'm wonderin' if they will make a new first episode. Seriously. Towards the end, shoot something new - you know what works about the show by then - and shove it right to the front to get your best out first.

Dollhouse is an odd thing. In theory, it's a show about identity, who we are, what defines us etc. But the thing is, that's not a show - that's an idea. FOX are "the action network", which I've said before I think is their downfall. So you've got this weird mismash goin' on. It reminds me ever so slightly of Drive, which started out as Magnolia-on-wheels (the idea) and quickly became a NASCAResque drama (the delivery).

Here's the thing with FOX's action network identity. What are their biggest shows? Family Guy, House, American Idol, Fringe... What shows do they have which are tanking? Terminator (sorry Summer), Prison Break... What am I saying? FOX. Stop being the action network. It's not what works for you. Here's a radical idea: identify yourself as the quality funny drama network. It's what works for you. Seriously.

[ edited by gossi on 2008-10-26 10:06 ]

gossi | October 26, 09:57 CET

Thanks for the post, love some info from the source himself, as far as this jury goes I'm thinking there are multiple get-out-of-jail-free cards available for anything up to and including Dexterlike hobbies, but the hunger for the spicy ideas is so strong the show is in danger of being executed by being talked to death before it's first airing, which would be sad.
Here's a tip, distract us with more news of cabins and dvds, quickly.

gossi, being the Idol network seems to be what works best for Fox, don't give them ideas to reshuffle, nothing good could come out of that :)

[ edited by jpr on 2008-10-26 10:14 ]

jpr | October 26, 10:07 CET

jpr, in terms of drama FOX prides itself as The Action Network. It's their thing, but I don't personally think it's the right thing.

gossi | October 26, 10:18 CET

Whatever I think about Fox, or Dollhouse, or the progression of events, it's undeniably awesome that Joss would come online and try to put everyone's minds at ease. And the fact that he seems enthusiastic can't hurt.

White Knight | October 26, 10:50 CET

Yay update! Really, nothing beats hearing that the people working on a project are really loving it.

Lady Brick | October 26, 10:52 CET

Wow, my first Joss-post as an official member!

Note to self: Do not read Joss-posts first thing in the morning. Neighbors do not appreciate loud squeeing at 5:30 in the morning.

Thanks for the info and humour and for poppycock. That word simply isn't used nearly enough.

I'm getting more and more excited about the show. I swear I'm going to find a countdown clock and set it for the series premiere.

My faith in Joss remains Mt. Everest high; my faith in Fox, not so much.

::continues making Fox executive voodoo dolls and gathering many large pins::

Oh, and ShadowQuest:

having to choose between ASH & Eliza

Tries.

Head explodes.

[ edited by Giles'chainsawchick on 2008-10-26 10:57 ]

Giles'chainsawchick | October 26, 10:53 CET

Hurray, Joss post. That made my Sunday morning better than it already was by being a Sunday morning (and one with an extra hour in bed, too).

At the risk of annoying b!x, I must say that my panic level has very slightly increased also. I appreciate all the good stuff that Joss is saying about feedback from people who want it to be easier to catch onto, and in the end that could turn out very well. I guess I'm just a bear of little brain and, since this is the first solid evidence we've had of creative differences between network and creative team, I'm going to go ahead and build just a little bit of worry on it. Previously, I was resisting all rumours and hearsay, but a Joss post carries a little more weight and is forcing me to think about it. But it's okay, I'll make the panic level a nice light cyan colour, and keep it to myself.

skittledog | October 26, 10:55 CET

Joss
Their desires were not surprising: up the stakes, make the episodes more stand-alone, stop talking about relationships and cut to the chase.

I hope "stand-alone" doesn't mean a procedural with a mask, right? Like Fringe?

If the pilot was trashed it means we won't have that scene where Eliza talks spanish? Or the one Eliza goes out with an older guy? Or every other thing that happened on the trailer (like the mountain)?

I'm excited about Jane Espenson because she wrote Conversations with Dead People.

Update: About spreading the word, don't worry, everyone in Portugal will know!

[ edited by Rikardo on 2008-10-26 10:59 ]

Rikardo | October 26, 10:57 CET

Well, no exercise for me needed today. My heart got all the workout it needed just now. The ups, the downs, the highs the lows. Jossir's post was like a whole season all in one. There has been love and death and rebirth. Whew.

Lioness | October 26, 11:00 CET

I don’t have much to say other than “Yay, Joss chose my birthday of all days to post after along purple drought”. Now, of course, he didn’t know that 26Oct was my b-day, but he still did it ;)

Mirage | October 26, 11:00 CET

I wasn't worried before, but now I am. Too much network interference can either make or break a show. Look at "Dirty Sexy Money", it's a show with a great cast, an interesting basic concept, but overall it isn't near what it could be. This season it's even pretty bad at times. I hope DOLLHOUSE profits from two opinions trying to make it work out, but I am not so sure about it.

ANYWAY, I need to see this new trailer. Where is one of the geeks who recorded it and uploads it to Youtube?

Donnie | October 26, 11:05 CET

"Eliza. Watching her on the monitors at two o'clock this morning I was reminded forcibly how much I wished I were in bed"

with her?

daylight | October 26, 11:05 CET

When you click recent comments and see 4.2 quintillion uninterrupted posts on one thread you know there's been Purple Postage (or maybe the apocalypse and the kind folks on here are giving a heads-up).

Ahhhnnnndd relax. OK, feel better about, well, everything now - even that mysterious rash looks like it's clearing up. It seems a pity that some compromising has had to be done (and to be honest I thought from early on that November was being distinctly "under-emphasised" in the promotional stuff) but then that's the really real world for you, you can't make an omelette without breaking eggs (OK, that's more the metaphorically real world cos in the really real one you also need a frying pan, ideally a wooden spatula to preserve the non-stick surface and some kind of heat source).

Must admit, i'm slightly amused to see the odd bit of panic rising now when a month ago we were all saying "Don't Panic !" and yet, by the sounds of Big Dub's post, a month ago things were looking not so great and a bit of panic might even have been justified ;).

Whedon Alert Level: Cute, the colour of !Kittens!

(glad to hear about Jane E hopping aboard)

((and happy belated birthday to theonetruebix and happy just birthday to Mirage ;))

(((and yay, an extra hour ! I'm gonna spend mine contemplating what to do with the extra hour, good times)))

Saje | October 26, 11:09 CET

gossi, I see, guess they are trying to build on 24, not sure about funny drama though what do they have in that vein ?
Action by itself doesn't do it, pity that Showtime took the 'it's all about characters', cause thats a large part of what you're looking for isn't it ?

Now for my favorite hobby, watching how fast the Joss post spreads on the internet.

[ edited by jpr on 2008-10-26 11:21 ]

jpr | October 26, 11:20 CET

Thanks for the update Joss! I'm sure you and the rest of the Dollhouse team will do your best to both satisfy the network and keep the show as strange and interesting as possible.

I do hope that the original pilot, or at least bits of it end up on the DVD as extras. I was very intrigued by what I saw in the original trailer. But now I wanna see the new trailer. Why has no one put it up yet, huh? A bit slow people! :p

Aviva | October 26, 11:36 CET

A Joss post! Well, that will teach me to go to sleep. I go to bed and looky there, news happens.

But it's good news. And Jane is on board! Thanks, Joss!

*does yippy joy dance to the utter embarassment of the kids*

MysticSlug | October 26, 11:42 CET

Joss does for the internet what STDs did for sex. No wait, Mummy, take the keyboard away. (From me). (And probably Joss). (Give him a typewriter and a fax machine). (And me, a carrier pigeon).

I do have to say, I don't think any of us knows if Dollhouse will stick - including the network - until the ratings start to arrive. I really wish FOX would stop saying they have faith in the show and actually start having it, though.

They also really need to order some more episodes at some point soonish. As that's the next Whedon terror colour alert problem, trust me.

gossi | October 26, 11:46 CET

Thanks for that explanation Joss (straight from the Bad Horse's mouth!). It's always interesting to get an insight into how these things work. I remember recently reading a JJ Abram's interview whereby he mentioned collaborating with his studio (Warner Bros in his case) on his creations, and his view is that it would have been a disaster if the studio had said yes to everything they suggested.

Great news that Jane Espenson's on board!

Thanks also for confirming the Balderdash and Poppycock situation.

I can count on you guys not to tell anyone, right?

er...oops....sorry...! ;-)

[ edited by Rosalind on 2008-10-26 12:18 ]

Rosalind | October 26, 11:52 CET

My first Joss post since I registered !
Nice to see that Dollhouse is back on the right track, can't wait to see it :)
The Buffy fan in me would have liked some news about the comics (a possible crossover between Angel and Buffy, maybe...)or maybe, one can dream, the animated series !

Léo | October 26, 11:58 CET

I wonder whether later seasons (touch wood) might be able to get closer to Joss's original vision

Let Down | October 26, 11:59 CET

I refuse to be scared by the networks into thinking that this show will not be the Best Show Ever. I have utmost faith in its success, even if the pilot is rewritten a thousand times. How could it not be, with the calibre of people on board?

Green Queen | October 26, 12:00 CET

Joss' post settled my tummy in ways I can't even begin to describe.

And JANE ESPENSON writing on Dollhouse! WOO-frakking-HOO!

catalyst2 | October 26, 12:11 CET

Er...gossi, you just compared Joss to an STD. Em?

Along the same note. Has anyone else noticed that when you search for Dollhouse on YouTube, some very strange porn-like stuff comes up? Couldn't find the commercial. Found lots of stuff I wish I hadn't though. I'm off to go scrub my mind now.

MysticSlug | October 26, 12:16 CET

Thanks for the update, Boss.

TV without you is a black hole (except for BSG), devoid of meaningful content.

I was so scared of cancellation! Thank the gods it hasn't happened. Your post is most reassuring. CAN'T WAIT!!!

*squeals of Eliza delight*

WhoIsOmega? | October 26, 12:27 CET

Anybody catch the fact that Joss confirmed that Yog Sothoth works in the rumor-mongering department at Fox? I just knew it ...

Always glad to see a purple post, especially one that makes with the rumor control. And Mr. Whedon, with respect to the "you're probably close to giving up on this blog," may I suggest that if you ever figure out what would stop Whedonesquers from reading a purple post, you make a movie about it, or at least make it the next Big Bad in "Buffy" S8, because it will not be a small, unnoticeable thing, it will be huge and stompy. And/or Yog Sothoth.

And Happy Birthday theonetruebix and Miracle!

Shapenew | October 26, 12:27 CET

I still see bus stop ads for Dollhouse. It's not for the show, but some sort of clothing line/makeup/perfume/lozenge.

John Darc | October 26, 12:32 CET

Wow, wghat a way to wake up,. With a Joss post.
I'm really looking forward to Dollhouse, and I'm just sad that everything from the changes on the show, are being played back there with Joss and his peeps against the network. There has been not real public reaction yet. We've been reacting to news about the show, well sourced and non-funded reports, generating different colors of panic colors, but just like back with Buffy season 1, most 13 episodes will already be finalized by the time Fox starts to air it in January. I only wished there were more time, to let us play, well as Joss points out the jury, judge and well, lawyers.
I'll be there supporting the show however I can, sometimes just wished it was more.

Numfar PTB | October 26, 12:34 CET

I haven't been worried. And after this purple posting my non-worry has increased. Also, the whole 'must-complete-time-machine-to-fast-forward-to-January' issue is becoming more and more pressing. Because let's face it, if I'm not done before December, the whole thing starts to become kind of moot.

But really, as previously stated (by many people, again, and again, and again), TV works likes this sometimes. And maybe, just maybe, this isn't a completely bad thing for the show. So once again: Don't worry about the state of a show that's still 11 weeks away from premiering.

Besides, my own personal worry schedule is filled up by Pushing Daisies right now.

Winther | October 26, 12:40 CET

Thanks for filling us in, Your Purpleness. :) Unlike other posters, this actually alleviates my worries, since the changes you mentioned don't seem dire at all, and, despite everything, you seem to have found your footing.

Stephen DeKnight and Jane Espenson both make my Top 5, when it comes to favourite Jossverse writers, so I'm cool with that change, too. I love me some Jane. ♥

Enisy | October 26, 12:53 CET

John Darc, it might be Target. There was some weird, and very boring, commercial on YouTube that referenced both Dollhouse and Target. Hey. Maybe they are trying to mooch off the fandom?

MysticSlug | October 26, 12:53 CET

Yeah, Steve DeKnight and Jane Espenson are some of my favourites too. I can't wait to see their episodes. Now we just need Marti Noxon for some heartbreaking melodrama

Let Down | October 26, 13:03 CET

The ad up here at the Fox site seems to be more detailed with new information, or more detailed information than the original ad. Is that what was run during the baseball game? And may I say that I think the fact that Fox was advertising Dollhouse during the game is really a good sign! That is valuable advertising space!

embers | October 26, 13:07 CET

MysticSlug, Product placement, maybe the first episode is Echo working on an undercover mission in a Target store :)

jpr | October 26, 13:08 CET

Shhh, jpr. We don't want to get them worrying again. But I suppose it's Ok as long as they use the right pronunciation of Target. Much more classy-like without the final -t and all.

[ edited by MysticSlug on 2008-10-26 13:24 ]

MysticSlug | October 26, 13:14 CET

This Joss post is mighty comforting, though I never worried about the quality of DH. I know Joss will pull it out with his usual flair, because growing pains = normal part of the process. And every Joss-ian show I've loved (and I've loved them all!) began with episodes that were good with flashes of brilliance that promised more. That's the great thing: they delivered on those flashes!

I remember nervously watching "The Train Job" and thinking all kinds of omg!-panicky thoughts, and then Mal kicked that dude into the carbine and I knew Firefly would be good.

I am much more nervous about how FOX will handle the show, but the plans so far -- premiering it midseason with a strong lead-in on Monday nights! It sounds very promising so far. And TV ratings have universally been in the toilet this season, so that's comforting too.

dottikin | October 26, 13:37 CET

I'd come to think the Boss had perhaps forgotten about us, so what a wonderful surprise to wake and find a Joss-post with an already-healthy number of posts. Good morning, Sunday.

Thanks for the update, Joss. Sorry to hear about SDeK, but really happy to hear about JE!

And thanks for a new line that I must find some use for somewhere: "apparently my learning curve has no bendy part."

palehorse | October 26, 14:00 CET

At the risk of annoying b!x, I must say that my panic level has very slightly increased also.

Ha, it's a risk we all have to take sometimes ;). So some of us are panicking more, some of us less? It's nice to get some long posty info, though I think Joss-posts are designed for people who have already had their coffee.

Happy OneTrueDayAfterYourBirthday, b!X, and happy birthday Mirage!

(((and yay, an extra hour ! I'm gonna spend mine contemplating what to do with the extra hour, good times)))

Hey, did your clocks go forward already, Saje? Enjoy your hour, and I'm glad to hear the rash is clearing up, ahem.

ETA Does Joss read this far down? I shoulda said thank you for the nice long posty info :)

[ edited by catherine on 2008-10-26 14:41 ]

catherine | October 26, 14:34 CET

Joss, thanks for the kind word. I can't wait for January, or whenever Dollhouse air date arrives, but since I have to I'm watching Firefly again one episode at a time and nobody tells stories the way you do -- so just keep telling and we'll keep watching.

doghouse | October 26, 14:40 CET

After waking at 7 this morning and watching 4 hours of Buffy, I thought it was time to safely sing-along and check out the internet. A Joss post. The Sabbath is indeed a holy day. All worship at the alter of Joss.

Here lies everything
The World I wanted on the net
My victory in Dollhouse is set

You get the idea ;o)

missyu | October 26, 14:53 CET

Joss, we have faith. Please write the show as you see it. Don't worry, we'll be here.

Madhatter | October 26, 14:58 CET

I must say that my panic level has very slightly increased also.

I think we're seeing what most show creators/runners have to go through, it's just that Joss is a bit more open about the whole process.

Simon | October 26, 15:00 CET

hooray for a joss post--has been too long!

and i love the honesty and humour here...as was said earlier (i think) "if you write it joss, we will come...or watch" :)

buffyfanatic18 | October 26, 15:04 CET

Lovely to see Joss, as always, and glad to hear Dollhouse is still a-comin'. And Jane Espenson! Jane the Great!

Sorry for all the stress, but you know what they say; stress turns coal into ulcers. Wait, no, it turns into something else, doesn't it? Emmys? Moral superiority? Daleks? Eh, something cool.

Meltha | October 26, 15:11 CET

Hey, did your clocks go forward already, Saje?

Well i'm hoping it's the world that's gone forward and our clocks have gone back but now you've got me worried (i've actually made that mistake before ;).

...

Nope, just checked with the speaking clock and they definitely went back. So, what's the future like, do we have flying cars yet ?

(incidentally, any UKers know when the speaking clock turned into frikkin' Tinkerbell (and an American Tinkerbell at that) ? Is it just for today ? Some anniversary that I don't know about or something ?)

Saje | October 26, 15:19 CET

Ok I have a question, when the heck was Joss in Heores???? I was looking at the Dollhouse and pulled up his bio and saw the following under his credits...

"Heroes - 2008 - Actor - A fantasy series about ordinary people with extraordinary powers."

Did we miss something???? I looked on imdb and saw nothing mentioned there. So what is the stitch about Joss acting in Heroes??? When??? Where??? How don't we know this??? Anyone know anything about this or Joss please tease.

RavenU | October 26, 15:33 CET

Saje, it's for the next three months (!) apparently the speaking clock is being sponsored by Disney for this period as part of a promotion for a new dvd coming out. Yuck.

Rosalind | October 26, 15:33 CET

My heart skipped a beat at the first couple of words- I thought he was heading off into a 'Sorry, Dollhouse has gone dark' direction. Phew- time to breathe again.

I hope Joss won't be bullied out of showing us his vision, as so many people- and not just here in the black- are behind him 100%

missb | October 26, 15:41 CET

Since I've avoided knowing anything beforehand about the series, I won't see the difference. I only read this post because it's Joss.

But I'm sorry his stress level has, once again, been sorely tested, and glad that he seems to think things are on track now.

redeem147 | October 26, 15:43 CET

The thing that scares me is the "more stand-alone" part. We've seen both Angel and Veronica Mars suffer in quality after going to a "more stand-alone" format, and then get cancelled.

Personally, I think Firefly and Battlestar Galactica strike the best balance. Each episode is a complete story on it's own, but most of them are also part of the larger story arc. This is mostly what I've been imagining Dollhouse to be like, and I hope the execs don't push it too far into the "Echo's personality of the week" category.

RaisedByMongrels | October 26, 15:44 CET

Saje, it's for the next three months (!) apparently the speaking clock is being sponsored by Disney for this period as part of a promotion for a new dvd coming out. Yuck.

Hmm, yeah, not sure how I feel about that, cheers for the info though Rosalind ;).

(Lenny Henry doing it for Comic Relief was one thing but to promote a film ? And it's a pretty annoying voice too, not at all the calm, dulcet tones I was just starting to get used to from the new lady)

Saje | October 26, 15:45 CET

You missed nothing, RavenU. Gosh, it's so good to hear your voice again. Welcome back!

Madhatter | October 26, 15:50 CET

"The thing that scares me is the "more stand-alone" part. We've seen both Angel and Veronica Mars suffer in quality after going to a "more stand-alone" format, and then get cancelled."

I definitely get what you mean though I love season 5 Angel; and Firefly was standalone too. I reckon if the show gets established and goes past season one it will inevitably become more serialised eg. Angel season 5 which couldn't stay standalone even though it tried

Let Down | October 26, 15:57 CET

The thing that scares me is the "more stand-alone" part. We've seen both Angel and Veronica Mars suffer in quality after going to a "more stand-alone" format, and then get cancelled.

Wait, so are you saying you think season 5 of Angel was a dip in quality? Because I'd argue that season 5 had the highest concentration of not-just-good-but-fucking-brilliant episodes of the (or indeed, any) series.

Not saying more stand-alone is always a good thing, I likes me continuity as much as the next nerd, but I just can't follow you there.

Winther | October 26, 16:03 CET

Season 5 is my favourite season of Angel, but I think most of its not-just-good-but-fucking-brilliant episodes were arc-based, and most of its lame episodes were... the standalones.

Enisy | October 26, 16:12 CET

Let's stop bashing Fox execs. They're not the Big Bad -- they WANT Dollhouse to succeed and are the one investing money to make it possible. Creative differences & evolutions are part of the show-making process. I inderstand all our interest in seeing Joss's vision, but let's not alienate the Powers That Be who are funding this project.

SteveP | October 26, 16:17 CET

I think the point was referred to stand alone episodes. With that said, you can't disagree that "Smile Time" was absolutely brilliant. I still want a vampy Angel.

Madhatter | October 26, 16:25 CET

Conviction, The Cautionary Tale of Numero Cinco, Lineage, Damage, Smile Time, The Girl in Question. I'd hold those episodes, all of them very much stand-alone, as being as some of the best of the series. And that's being very strict about what's stand-alone vs. arc-based. I'm tempted to throw A Hole in the World and You're Welcome in there, too. I'd say that though there are certainly plot-threads evolving through the episodes, particularly in the last half of the season, they're much more independent than not just season 4 (which, if anything, went a bit overboard on arcyness), but 3 and the last half of 2 as well. There's a reason there's nary a 'previously on' in the season.

Winther | October 26, 16:32 CET

I wonder when the old pilot will start making it's way onto the interweb!

alittledarkcorner | October 26, 16:43 CET

So, despite the fact, as you yourself mention, that two current shows under the current FOX regime are being given the opportunity to succeed, you're stuck on the experiences of Firefly and Drive under the old FOX regime?

I have a feeling responding this far down will get me no where, but my answer is yes. I was completely convinced that Terminator was out with all the discussion of it failing to be renewed (I told quite a few people that it was), and while I'm glad that it's still around, I was honestly surprised about it. Every day I'm wondering if Fringe is going to just disappear into nothingness. As well, what happened with Drive just doesn't seem to be that long ago.

Has the entire philosophy of Fox really changed in that amount of time? I just don't know, considering the behemoth that is a network like that. How fast can it change, anyway?

So that's me being skeptical and cautious of a thing that has burned me in the past.

VeryVeryCrowded | October 26, 16:44 CET

This is what happens when you don't wake up till noon, you miss everything! I'm a little late but, yay Joss post! And I'm so glad Jane Espenson is on the writing staff now, her episodes are among my favorites.

pancakegirl | October 26, 16:51 CET

Okay, think I understand now.

And alittledarkcorner, which old pilot is that? BTW, wonderful name:)

Madhatter | October 26, 16:52 CET

@Saje: Oh right. Spring forward, fall back. Oops! No flying cars yet here in the future, but I'm keeping my eyes peeled. Will keep you posted.

catherine | October 26, 16:53 CET

With regard to stand-alone vs. arc-heavy, I think the key is balance, and it's why I love season five of Angel so much--I think it's as close as that show got to the lovely balance between arc and stand-alone that Buffy S2/S3 had. Each episode in those seasons had its own very distinct, separate plot, even the major arc-contributors like Passion. But then hidden in all the stand-alones was the season's big plot, resolved in the finale, blah blah blah. S5 of Angel did a good job of finding the balance. I liked season four of Angel, but I dislike that sort of storytelling on a very long-term (series-length) basis.

The End.

[ edited by Jobo on 2008-10-26 16:56 ]

Jobo | October 26, 16:55 CET

I laughed, I cried, I said "Poppycock!" Thanks for the update, Joss!

xMadxScientistx | October 26, 17:19 CET

Spring forward, fall back.

Aha, i'm nicking that catherine. We don't call it 'fall' but I know what it means (and anyway, "Spring forward, Autumn back" is just crazy talk ;).

Saje | October 26, 17:31 CET

Joining the "slightly more concerned than before" faction, but still cautiously optimistic. I'd like to believe that this sort of thing happens with all new series, but my gut feeling is that it only happens with the ones that the network (no matter how evolved from prior incarnations) perceives as too smart, too dense and complex, too "different".

Deep sadness for the departure of Steve DeKnight may be fueling my bad feelings, because in spite of the Yay! factor for the addition of Jane E., DeKnight was my best hope for seeing something really out there on the edge.

Remaining hopeful, and Thank You Joss! for the update. It can't be easy finding the time.

Shey | October 26, 17:33 CET

I haven't read the entire thread (it's so huge!) but remember that Firefly was essentially all standalones, really. (Arc-y episodes like "Ariel" were still framed in the context of the mission of that week.) So I'm not too worried about the standalone issue, for now. I like arc-ier things myself, but there's no denying the appeal. And I love the way Whedon tends to develop his characters through standalones, and integrate the season's themes into them.

Angel season five survived the transition well to standalones, but it is true that the weakest episodes tended to be standalones. ("Why We Fight" is the big example; while they had arc-y elements, I'd add "Unleashed" in spite of introducing a major character, "Life of the Party".) Of course, "The Cautionary Tale of Numero Cinco," "Lineage," and "Smile Time" were also absolutely standalone episodes in conception. Really, besides Angel season four, most seasons of Buffy and Angel were based along a mixture of standalone and arc, anyway; I'd say many of the best episodes of the series were ones that advanced the arc by moving at right angles to it with a plot of the week ("Lie to Me," "The Wish," "Earshot," "Hush," "Who Are You," "Once More With Feeling," "Storyteller", "Waiting in the Wings"...). And plus "Are You Now or Have You Ever Been" is a complete standalone, with not all that much direct effect on the show (besides introducing a new character in the Hyperion hotel). VM definitely didn't survive the transition to stnadalones--but then, this is a Whedon show and not a Rob Thomas one.

All that said--I really hope that the show doesn't end up being less cerebral than originally intended. Hopefully the effect of the network is to allow Whedon to broaden the show's scope to do that genre blendiness we all love so well.

WilliamTheB | October 26, 17:40 CET

Joss said "Yog-Sothothy". I heart that man.

DVD extras are hopefully big.

JadeHand | October 26, 17:44 CET

You never fail to make me smile, Mr Whedon. :D

I absolutely can't wait for this show!

wonderflonium | October 26, 17:50 CET

Yawn! After trying to stay awake during game 3 of the World Series, and battling a cold, this makes my Sunday a bit brighter. Thanks for the update, Joss!

[ edited by impalergeneral on 2008-10-26 18:00 ]

impalergeneral | October 26, 17:59 CET

Just thought I'd put my 2 cents which I never do but I just have to say I can't wait any longer for Dollhouse to come. And Joss's post just makes it worse and it makes it better and now I'm confused and excited and just so incredibly happy to read all this.
The show is alive and I have full faith in Joss that it's gonna be mindblowing.
A big welcome hug to Jane. Can this get any better?

PS*
Batten down the hatches, here comes hurricane Eliza. *Cordystyle* :D

rafaboreanaz | October 26, 18:03 CET

If Dollhouse is half as entertaining as reading Joss' posts, I'm sure it'll be a hit ;) I can't wait!

Irrel | October 26, 18:04 CET

YAY Jane Espenson!!!

LOVE LOVE LOVE

Buffy the Slayer Layer | October 26, 18:04 CET

Oh my gods!!! I was in my car this morning thinking about how cool it would be if Jane Espenson would work on "Dollhouse" now that her BSG duties seem to be finished (for now). Bummer about DeKnight moving on.

Now I can't grade papers, because I need to talk about this all day long!

~~Thank you~~ Damn you, Joss!

Edited because I was thinking in Swedish...

[ edited by Nebula1400 on 2008-10-26 18:12 ]

Nebula1400 | October 26, 18:09 CET

I am not concerned nor panicked because Joss' words are soothing no matter what they say. Even when they are typed.

I am a little bummed that DeKnight isn't going to be involved anymore, but I am excited that Jane is coming aboard because I have always enjoyed the episodes of Joss' shows that Jane has written. So, sad that we're losing DeKnights action-savvyness, but happy we are gaining Espenson's humour! I'll call that a win.

Nolan | October 26, 18:10 CET

Can you Digg it?

Caroline | October 26, 18:12 CET

I Dugg it, Caroline.

Nebula1400 | October 26, 18:13 CET

Hey y'all talkin' 'bout DST, ya might wanna read this blurb:

"At 2 a.m. on November 2, 2008, groggy Americans will turn their clocks back one hour, marking the end of Daylight Saving Time (DST).

The federal law that established "daylight time" in the United States does not require any area to observe daylight saving time. But if a state chooses to observe DST, it must follow the starting and ending dates set by the law. From 1986 to 2006 this was the first Sunday in April to the last Sunday in October, but starting in 2007, it is observed from the second Sunday in March to the first Sunday in November, adding about a month to daylight saving time."

'cause...it hasn't happened yet! I woke up & my VCR was off an hour from my watch, bedroom clock & computer. As my mother suggested, it didn't listen to Bush.

ShadowQuest | October 26, 18:13 CET

Anyone know what DeKnight is moving on to do?

Let Down | October 26, 18:15 CET

Whoa whoa whoa, let me get this straight. Is there some kind of connection between Flim and this Tim fellow???...

"I know, I'm not funny." -Felicia Day, The Guild

Great post, Joss. Many thanks for the updates.

WhedonTrivia | October 26, 18:18 CET

Wait, did Steve DeKnight leave? When did that happen? Talking about falling asleep at the switch. So guilty am I.

Madhatter | October 26, 18:20 CET

The UK has a speaking clock? Why don't we have a speaking clock?

Also, Saje, you guys are getting the flying cars first because you're still in the future. Just not as far in the future as you were yesterday.

jcs | October 26, 18:24 CET

Yay for seeing Reed Diamond again (and in a Joss show!) I've liked Reed ever since Homicide: Life on the Street.

Thanks for the update, Joss. I'm really looking forward to Dollhouse.

m'cookies actual | October 26, 18:27 CET

Yay, Jane! Yay, Reed (I loved him in Homicide)! Yay Miracle getting to stick around. It sounds even more tightly tuned and fabulous. Anything that'll help other folks find it accessible too (without sacrificing the original vision) is okay by me!

swanjun | October 26, 18:32 CET

Poppycock!!!!! And how soon can we order the Dr. H's DVDs??? And what is Marti Noxon wasting her time on if she's not on a Joss project??? And what took Jane so long????

falina | October 26, 18:34 CET

The ad up here at the Fox site seems to be more detailed with new information

That embedded ad was posted to YouTube in like May (or was it March, I don't remember and I'm too lazy to reclick), so that's likely not it. Doesn't quite match the description either.

And what took Jane so long????

For one thing, she was writing the BSG movie The Plan.

[ edited by theonetruebix on 2008-10-26 18:42 ]

The One True b!X | October 26, 18:39 CET

I just Googled Reed Diamond cos the name was familiar and he's from 'Journeyman'. Yay, liked him.

The UK has a speaking clock? Why don't we have a speaking clock?

Something to do with tea jcs ? I don't use it often cos it's actually quite dear (30p per call) but when I was a kid we used to call it 'Tim' and ring it all the time, just cos.

And fair point about the footoor. **spoilers** We don't have flying cars yet BUT the sun has set so rest easy on that score, I know it can sometimes be a worry **end spoilers**.

Saje | October 26, 18:40 CET

Oh Joss! Thanks for the update! Unfortunately for me, the constant rumors of dysfunction had begun to make me worry a little, but I am reminded how comfortable and content I am with you in the driver's seat of a TV series. Thanks for the peace of mind. In Joss we trust!

Linnea1928 | October 26, 18:46 CET

My favorite thing about Joss posts (besides the fact that, hey, Joss posted) is the fact that everyone starts speaking (typing?) Jossian. Or Joss-slang. Or whatever that very distinct way of speaking is. It gives me warm fuzzies, even if I'm not all that adept at it.

I must admit to being kind of crushed about DeKnight's departure--he's one of my favorites--but that's fabulous news about Jane Espenson.

As for everything else, I don't know if I'm more or less confidant now because I'm doing that thing I do where I don't let myself really think about Dollhouse at all...because if I do, I just get way too excited, and then it's impossible to wait. I shove it to the side of my mind and let the fact of its mere existence warm me. Like not looking directly at the sun. Or something. That analogy made way more sense in my head.

Lirazel | October 26, 18:51 CET

And what took Jane so long????

Didn't Joss say in a interview that Dollhouse couldn't afford Jane (or something to that effect).

Simon | October 26, 19:01 CET

Ponder, Boldfaced Purple Prosodist:*
1. The road to “Ah-hah!” mountain runs through the valley of “Ah-fuck!”
2. This = best date for posting. AFAIC. THX. I mean that, and not in some obscure George Lucash way.
3. What would have happened to Spike if Joyce had served him this cocoa?

*That word doesn't mean what you think it means, if you think it means what I did. Strangely, it still works, though only during long breaks.

Pointy | October 26, 19:02 CET

I did always wonder what happened when a Protestant and a Methodist mated. Now I still don't know.

Saje | October 26, 19:08 CET

Exactly.

Pointy | October 26, 19:12 CET

Ha ha! I'm sending you your free toaster!

catherine | October 26, 19:20 CET

Also, I would like to note my immense excitement at the idea of the season finale. I mean, I know, that means the end of the show for three months (best case scenario), but still. I love season finales. And I love two-parters. And Flim Flinear.

I am giddy in a pathetic way.

Jobo | October 26, 19:32 CET

Me, too. But hey, we're only, like, 2-2.5 months away now!

swanjun | October 26, 19:48 CET

I'm so excited for this show! Awesome 2-parter, exciting season finale, Jane Espenson!! The list keeps going on the more we hear about it.

cookiepartier | October 26, 19:55 CET

Am I the only one who sees the headline link ...."What happened when the lights went out" ... and I mentally add "in Georgia" to the end of it.

***crickets chripping*** and age is showing.

Ok so it's just me then, I thought so.

RavenU | October 26, 20:01 CET

ShadowQuest"'cause...it hasn't happened yet! I woke up & my VCR was off an hour from my watch, bedroom clock & computer. As my mother suggested, it didn't listen to Bush."

Yes, if you're an American and your VCR or other programmable-type clock fell back an hour so you went ahead and changed all your other clocks -- well, you're going to be late for work.

cabri | October 26, 20:08 CET

RavenU, it's not just you. (And I'm only 18!)

Anyway, thanks for posting, Joss. I'm even more excited for the show after this, something which I did not believe to be humanly possible. (It is possible I am not human.)

Apparently I'm also adding parenthetical statements at the end of every paragraph now. (Like this.)

UnpluggedCrazy | October 26, 20:31 CET

UnpluggedCrazy, something which I asked myself recently - did I start adding parentheticals into sentences before I knew of Joss, or after? I'm honestly not sure. For as long as I can remember I've been doing it. But I can't remember that far back I suspect - the price of beer.

gossi | October 26, 20:36 CET

Oh, I'm pretty sure you're human, UnpluggedCrazy. (But I might be wrong.)

Eep! It's contagious. (Or not.)

catherine | October 26, 20:38 CET

Only at the end? I've scattered parentheticals -- and items set off by em dashes -- throughout sentences and paragraphs since way back.

The One True b!X | October 26, 20:39 CET

Yay Jane!!!

Violekath | October 26, 20:40 CET

Yeah, we got it RavenU. Bunch of kiddies in the room. They give me the giggles as well. As such.

With the exception of UnpluggedCrazy that is.

Madhatter | October 26, 20:41 CET

gossi, that's about the longest free beer line I've heard in awhile. Must toast you!

Madhatter | October 26, 20:47 CET

No, RavenU, it's not just you. And I remember the original Vicki Lawrence (am I the only one who can't believe that Mama from Mama's Family had a number 1 song? But I digress...) version, not just Reba McEntire's.

UnpluggedCrazy, parentheticals are a computer disease for me. I never used them till I got my first computer, but I haven't stopped using them since.

Giles'chainsawchick | October 26, 20:48 CET

Pretty sure I (way, way over)used parentheses long before i'd read Joss but his dialogue has a parenthetical quality too, maybe that was slightly influential. Then again, it's not that different to "an aside" that you see a lot in plays etc.

BTW, i'm pretty sure it's perfectly correct, certainly in American usage but to my eye there's just something fundamentally wrong with having the full stop inside the parenthesis, it just looks badly nested, like you're ending the sentence and then continuing it after you've marked the end. Wonder if that's just my vestigial programmer coming to the fore.

Saje | October 26, 20:49 CET

So. Anything important happen today, on the black?

Wonder if that's just my vestigial programmer coming to the fore.

Probably, Saje, as I'm experiencing the same thing :).

GVH | October 26, 20:52 CET

Placement varies for me, depending on the apparent logical flow of the sentence. (If the parentheticals are separate sentences, I place all punctuation inside.) But then I'm constantly placing punctuation where it seems most logical to be, which often conflicts with how, apparently, I'm "supposed" to be doing it. I don't care, really, about "supposed". I care about it making sense.

The One True b!X | October 26, 20:56 CET

Wait, did Steve DeKnight leave? When did that happen? Talking about falling asleep at the switch.
So guilty am I.
Madhatter | October 26, 18:20 CET

Yeah, I'd like to know too :(

Angel TheVampire | October 26, 21:02 CET

American usage for quotes is to put punctuation inside (though personally I do it the other way because it makes more sense), but for parentheses I believe it's correct to put it outside (unless it's a separate sentence).

And I've been using too many parentheses (and dashes and ellipses) for years, long before I ever heard of Mr. Whedon.

Rachelkachel | October 26, 21:03 CET

I'm pretty sure Marti Noxon is wasting her time with Mad Men and Private Practice.

(.(.(.(.(The nerve.).).).).

(Und I forgotted to say before that I'm sorry Steve DeKnight is moving on, but so glad for the re-entry of !Jane ("!Kittens!") Espenson back into Whedonia, of which Hail.).

QuoterGal | October 26, 21:10 CET

full stop inside the parenhesis...

Actually, that rule is in Strunk and White's Elements of Style.

And one should never pass up a good parenthetical.

ETA: edited because I finally figured out how to do italics. Talk about learning curves. How long have I been hanging around here, and I'm only just now figuring it out? Pathetic.

[ edited by MysticSlug on 2008-10-26 21:28 ]

MysticSlug | October 26, 21:10 CET

Joss has a particular way of using them, though - to provide a flow of reading. You can kinda figure out how he's thinking of things as he writes them. Well, I can, anyway.

By the way, I didn't mean to say Joss has an STD (although if he has: you heard it here first!) (Mummy, take my key... Oh, I did that already). I meant Joss does for the internet what STDs did for sex - i.e. if Joss posts something like this online, it ends up spreading everywhere... Then when you've read his posts you scratch yourself a lot. And get a rash. But not a Mohinder Suresh "rash". (He calls himself a doctor, but dude, that's NOT a rash - you're turning into a fly, dude). Wait, you can't catch a rash from Joss posts?

This was all funny, I'd like to point out. In my head.

gossi | October 26, 21:11 CET

Wait, you can't catch a rash from Joss posts?

Doubtful, but like STDs, one does it for pleasure, if that's what you're getting at. (At this point, I'm kinda hoping Joss doesn't read down this far.) One is far more likely to completely lose all sense of time and spend hours typing nonsensical things to people one can't see, which didn't help me any since we also changed our clocks today and I woke up confused.

[ edited by MysticSlug on 2008-10-26 21:23 ]

MysticSlug | October 26, 21:22 CET

I normally wake up with perfect clarity, it's everything after that's confusing.

So just to be totally clear, you definitely can't get an STD from a Joss post, right ? No matter what you might, err, rub it on ?

Saje | October 26, 21:26 CET

Actually, gossi's original premise above was that Joss was to the internett what STD was to sex. What one actually got from one of his posts has never been explained.

Care to take a stab at it? (This is so not getting my papers corrected.)

[ edited by MysticSlug on 2008-10-26 21:35 ]

MysticSlug | October 26, 21:33 CET

Saje, put the notebook down. Just because it's called a laptop in the UK, jeez.

gossi | October 26, 21:33 CET

Gaw, gossi! I had to read that like four times before I got it. Saje, just mind where you put your fingers.

MysticSlug | October 26, 21:39 CET

If Joss is still reading this far in, he must be feeling like it's 4 a.m. and the people in the pub are a bit wasted. Now, in the UK tradition, let's get kebabs!

gossi | October 26, 21:43 CET

So just to be totally clear, you definitely can't get an STD from a Joss post, right ? No matter what you might, err, rub it on ?

Yep. Most disturbing thing read on whedonesque today, right there. Kudos.

GVH | October 26, 21:46 CET

What one gets from a Joss post is a case of what I believe is technically known as Parentheticitis Whedonum. (Obviously.)

Shorthand, it's known as, "Wow, UnpluggedCrazy Didn't Know He Would Spark an Entire Discussion About Parentheses." (Except that's longer than the formal terminology, isn't it? Wonders never cease. [Or do they?])

UnpluggedCrazy | October 26, 21:57 CET

UnpluggedCrazy, you're also turning into a character from The Mighty Boosh. Or are you?

gossi | October 26, 22:00 CET

I love the way this is the only post on whedonesque today. It feels like everybody's in here. (Although Joss might wish he weren't any more.)

...personally, my demon has always been over-use of ellipsis...

skittledog | October 26, 22:11 CET

Ah, Ellipzebub, Lord of the Dark Dot, yep his brand of evil is ... persuasive.

I dunno, fingers, laptops, disturbing fellow posters - seems like you're not allowed to do anything these days. It's political correctness gone mad I tell you !

Large chicken shish for me BTW. (with mild chili sauce.)

(gahhh, that's just not right, I don't care what Strunk and White say)

Saje | October 26, 22:20 CET

Yeah, I'd like to know too :(

DeKnight was only on board as a consulting producer from what I remember, I don't think it was never a permanent gig. Course I could be wrong but I'd like to think that my Mutant Enemy mental map is still reasonably accurate. I'll go out on a limb and say Fury will be involved some how by the middle of season 2.

Simon | October 26, 22:23 CET

200 posts later...

I'm very late to the commenting party but I do this weird (and awfully time-consuming) thing where I read the entire thread before posting. Apparently a Joss-post got people all excited - who knew?

I'm sad to see DeKnight go, but ecstatic that Jane Espenson is coming on-board! The creative team Joss is working with is the real driving force for my high expectations. Hearing how great Steven S. DeKnight's episode is from both Joss and the producing company gives me a happy.

I'm not as worried about the re-working of the pilot as a lot of fans. It sounds like after re-tooling the first episodes, Dollhouse is now (according to Joss) "alive". Is it coincidence? Or did refining the pilot make everything click? Who knows, but it's all sounding gravy right now.

Anyone found that new Dollhouse commercial yet?

Also, just noticed I found 3 "re-" words that all managed to make me sound non-repetitious while still essentially repeating the same concept. Do I get thesaurus bonus points? No?

Emmie | October 26, 22:30 CET

Even if the White in question is E.B. White, the author of Stuart Little? (And who obviusly had nothing to do with that atrocity of a movie.)

I had kebab last week. I could do with a curry though.

MysticSlug | October 26, 22:30 CET

I just want to say something. I'm in the park with the being worried about the "more stand-alone" line as well, for two reasons:

1) stand-alones are going the way of the silent movie. Genre shows in particular are staying on air more from DVD sales than anything, and BSG, Heroes, and Lost are the new wave. If fox doesn't get that, that's why Terminator is failing but you'll see ratings spikes on episodes dealing with Cameron's past. Why? Because we want ARCS. they play better when you're watching the show on DVR or buying whole seasons. Even How I Met Your Mother is a sitcom with a season and series-wide arc, which is pretty unheard of.

2) Season 5 of Angel was much better than the atrocity that was 4 (excluding the beginning, the very end, and some bits here and there), but was by an large just an okay season, not just because its stand-alones were far weaker than the overall arc, but because at times (at least to the writer in me), it actually seemed like they were forcing the eps to be stand-alones. Spike's being pulled to hell ending up just being a Jack the Ripper wannabe instead of an overall Spike arc, the Tetzacotl amulet not being Spike's amulet that burned through all the Ubervamps, and in fact the amulet not being dealt with at all. It's the same type of frustration season 4's villain not being the First Evil caused me. It seems actually a stretch to keep things apart at this point. It's unrealistic, and we're in the start of a new generation of shows that move more naturally.

I was looking forward to Dollhouse being a weird bridge between Joss's old shows and BSG-format serials, like a step past Buff 7, where we'd have a really tight ongoing arc that cut up nicely into episodes because of the nature of the idea. But now i'm starting to think Fox is going to bite itself in the ass by trying to squeeze it into an outdated formula.

[ edited by PuppetDoug on 2008-10-26 22:33 ]

PuppetDoug | October 26, 22:32 CET

All this talk about STD's is exactly why we need more joss posts....cause without them we go crazys.

wilder | October 26, 22:36 CET

Commas. My favorite punctuation thingy. Usually.

And I'm still looking forward to Dollhouse.

NYPinTA | October 26, 22:42 CET

I would also like to add that though Firefly was composed almost entirely of standalones (someone said it was all standalone, but since there didn't get to be an arc, we can't say what did or did not tie in. I'd say Ariel, Objects in Space, and the pilot are not that standalone), and Angel 4 was almost sans standalone, I think Whedonverse triumphs in the balance. Going all standalone will make things seem forced and unrealistic, and going all arc will exhaust the premise.

What I'm really afraid of is completely standalone episodes and this amount of time shooting before the series airs will allow fox to rearrange the order of the series, a la Firelfy and the last season of Scrubs on NBC, and no matter how standalone you get, that changes the story put forth, and is confusing for anyone watching every ep.

PuppetDoug | October 26, 22:52 CET

Large chicken shish for me BTW. (with mild chili sauce.)

You're right, it's NOT right, right? I think your choices are as follows:

Large chicken shish for me BTW (with mild chili sauce).
OR
Large chicken shish for me BTW. (I like it with mild chili sauce.)

I am not so worried about the standalone-ness of episodes... I can't think the show will stay that way, or be arcless, but it may indeedy be a good way to start off. The issue is finding an audience, right? And once the audience has been found (we're over here! *waves big white flag, starts fires on the beach*) they can, you know, take us for the crazy ride and totally devastate us. Yay!

(I am overly fond of ellipses too - but I want to marry a dash).

catherine | October 26, 22:57 CET

.)

[Piraticon.]

Pointy | October 26, 23:15 CET

Heh Pointy ;).

Large chicken shish for me BTW (with mild chili sauce).
OR
Large chicken shish for me BTW. (I like it with mild chili sauce.)

Oh I get that the separate parenthetical is meant to be a complete sentence catherine, it's the actual look of the '.)' that bugs me, what goes before it doesn't really make any difference (and i'd rather cut a dash ;).

Re: stand-alones/not, I see 'Dollhouse' as possibly being similar to 'Life' in that it's almost entirely stand-alones each week (separate stories) but each one usually has an arc element built-in i.e. there's an arc, actually quite an important one, but that each episode will work on its own regardless of it.

I also think BTW, that relatively few shows are highly serialised, even today.

Saje | October 26, 23:33 CET

I totally get your point, Saje. What I then don't get is why you always use something like:

this;

"(and i'd rather cut a dash ;).",

instead of this:

"(and i'd rather cut a dash ;)).".

You're totally leaving your parentheses open, since that last one belongs to your emoticon. It's hurting my inner vestigial programmer, why isn't it hurting yours?

;)

ETR: a typo.

[ edited by GVH on 2008-10-26 23:48 ]

GVH | October 26, 23:47 CET

I'm glad you brought that up GVH. I always worry about those dual-purpose parentheses. (But it's the English teacher in me, not the programmer. I don't have one of those.) Can a parenthesis be two things at once? I think so, but sometimes I'm full of doubt.

jcs | October 27, 00:07 CET

Yes! I also find them unnerving; they leave me with a worrying lack of closure. On the one hand I think it's a neat double usage... but on the other I do not feel the emoticon has been safely contained. And we all know what havoc those things can wreak if they get out of control.

eta: but then again, a ;)) looks like it has a double chin.

[ edited by skittledog on 2008-10-27 00:11 ]

skittledog | October 27, 00:10 CET

I'm relieved.

Which hopefully fulfills Mr. Whedon's intent.

Nifty.

bookwench | October 27, 00:13 CET

Giles'chainsawchick Yes, exactly. (And cool name, btw - one of my favorite Xander lines remains: "Hey, everyone - it's Giles! With a chainsaw." Man knows how to make an entrance.)

'cause...I loves me some Tony. And I've been "getting into" medieval research lately (Mostly horse armor) and considering locating a local Kingdom to join. And that Tony loved that kinda stuff as a kid & now gets to play one of the most famous kings is just icing.

But...Eliza. New show. Joss's insane brain.

It's just...it's too....BOOM!

ShadowQuest | October 27, 00:16 CET

Tinkerbell is scary and wrong. That is all.

Craig Oxbrow | October 27, 00:16 CET

They're screwing with Joss' vision! ARGH! I think we should make preparations for a possible canine hunt this spring. Joss, how about after Dollhouse's run is over, whenever that happens, you stick to your original plan and don't work with FOX ever again...

EDIT: Oh, I'm just saying... Original pilot... Possible future DVD extra maybe? Pretty please?

[ edited by Djungelurban on 2008-10-27 00:23 ]

Djungelurban | October 27, 00:20 CET

It'll show up on You Tube eventually, Djungelurban.

Nebula1400 | October 27, 00:42 CET

Ha ha, Pointy I love the piraticon! Almost my favorite thing today.

It seems Strunk & White disagree with me anyway on punctuation and parentheses and the piraticon. What funny ideas they have. *sigh* I love Charlotte's Web.

I too find it troubling when the parentheses are left open around an emoticon (I'm not a good multi-tasker myself, but perhaps I should have more faith in the parenthemoticon-mouth?) but yes, skittledog, the double-chin is equally troubling! Perhaps better to let the parenthemoticon-mouth be tight-chinned and efficient, at the risk of it running rogue when uncontained?

So much to think about.

catherine | October 27, 00:43 CET

ShadowQuest, Giles with a chainsaw is just sexy personified! (and I wonder why some people think I'm crazy?) I've always kinda been into Arthurian legends to begin with and putting Tony into Arthurian legend is just a dream come true, not to mention serious fantasy material.

But to choose between he and Eliza?

Head explodes again.

Giles'chainsawchick | October 27, 00:50 CET

Erm. I will eat something before trying to read and post.

[ edited by theonetruebix on 2008-10-27 01:06 ]

The One True b!X | October 27, 01:00 CET

Like many previous posters, I prefer the less serialised seasons of BtVS and ATS to the heavily serialised ones. It’s also possible that after losing patience with heavily serialised shows like Lost and Prison Break, some viewers may not want to get involved with another one. Just sayin’.

In my view, the best strategy for any new show’s survival is to get the audience hooked with standalonish episodes, then build a heavier arc as the mythology grows.

I agree that network-bashing is unnecessary. They clearly want a hit, and they are the ones who take financial risks with it. Besides, contrary to the popular belief, network involvement is not always detrimental: Riff Regan would have probably made a good Willow, but still I’m glad Joss didn’t get his way in this instance. In another example, while it’s fun to speculate what Angel would have been like if the original, darker vision had been realised, I wouldn’t trade the Angel we have for the Angel we could have had.

After 3 cult shows I think we can trust Joss and his team to strike the balance between the artistic quality and the market appeal of his new series.

Effulgent | October 27, 01:06 CET

This gets me excited... I prefer more stand-alone episodes that advance arcs in more subtle ways, that's why I like Season Five of Angel so much.

If Dollhouse works out to be something like 'Revelations' where it was a stand-alone (in terms of a fake watcher) but advanced the emotional arc (the lack of trust Faith would have) it will be beautiful!

aapac | October 27, 01:23 CET

Was Riff Regan a network decision? I was always under the impression it was Joss's call.

Jobo | October 27, 01:24 CET

Also, I'm thinking of starting a petition, Bring Back November. I mean, Joss has killed off a lot of nice girls, but to kill one off before she has even appeared -- that's a little too much even for me.

Effulgent | October 27, 01:24 CET

I can feel the show talking to me; delighting, scaring and occasionally even offending me. It's alive. Alive!

. . . reminds me of this great old oft o'erlook'd Aimee Mann song.

ETA A'mee was in her Punk Audrey Hepburn phase, so try not to get too besmitten. Besmoted. Wowed.

[ edited by Pointy on 2008-10-27 01:46 ]

Pointy | October 27, 01:44 CET

Sorry, did anyone clarify what on earth Cabin is?

Sparticus | October 27, 01:52 CET

Cabin in the Woods, Joss and Drew Goddard's movie, due out 10/23/09.

Jobo | October 27, 01:53 CET

eta: but then again, a ;)) looks like it has a double chin.

I leave a space between the emoti and the closing parenthesi (?) just so it doesn't have the double chin effect, (although it could still.. but just a larger double chin. Hmm. ;) ) See? Like that.

Edit: Wow. My emoti has been hittin' the Halloween candy a little hard, no?

NYPinTA | October 27, 01:55 CET

Cabin in the Woods, Joss and Drew Goddard's movie, due out 10/23/09.

Cue the self-pimpage.

The One True b!X | October 27, 01:56 CET

Wow. I was planning on posting earlier, but then this thing called life got in the way and made me very cranky. So I've read it all and I've got a few things to say:

1)I have to disagree with Joss. Balderdash is still totally tubular awesome! And I've never been much for the poppy and the well...we won't go there.

2) Jane Espenson is my personal favorite TV writer, and I am thrilled to see her coming to the DH family.

3) I will not be worried about the show's fate. I may not even like the show (though I doubt that).

4) I hate having the period inside the parenthesises. I like my punctuation to be free and unbridled.

5) Standalone vs. Arc? I like the combination, with more emphasis on the arc. When certain key details (i.e. relationship changes) are forgotten episode to episode the standalones fail.

6) I never liked the color purple, but it would seem I'm starting to have certain feelings...shhh don't tell green; he gets real jealous.

7) I decided to end on seven...cause it's lucky? Oh you've heard that?

8) Really? ...Wait! No this is still supposed to be seven!

9) No stop it!

10) Fine you happy now?

Stupid uncontrollable typing fingers.

Likewithpie | October 27, 02:14 CET

Yay, Jane! In my top two of Buffy writers (guess the other).

Sad about Steven though but glad he wrote one episode. As wonderful and dark as Dead Things perhaps? That'd scare some execs.

Leaf | October 27, 02:22 CET

Jane Espenson can write about a Jane Austen obsessive who wants to program her own private Darcy!. Or, you know, anything.

Pointy | October 27, 02:24 CET

Mmmmm Mr. Darcy!

embers | October 27, 02:25 CET

YESS JANE ESPENSON! She's incredibly awesome, I love her blog enormously.

I like arc shows, but most start out with a monster-of-the week format to draw in an audience and then they slowly delve into the arcness. Like Buffy. So I think everything will be okay.

Also I want my own Mr Darcy. That sounds like a good idea.

[ edited by sarahisavampire on 2008-10-27 02:33 ]

sarahisavampire | October 27, 02:32 CET

Well Joss, as long as you are OK with (and sometimes even behind) these edits, then I don't really see anything bad about them. Much as I have trouble trusting Fox, I have no trouble trusting you, so I can't wait for my welcome to the Dollhouse, so to speak. Also, here's to the Dr. Horrible DVD (and possibly Blu-ray? PLEASE?) But yes, you DO need to get Ashley Johnson back ASAP. She's awesome, I can't wait to watch Otis.

Best of luck to you.

Break_Atmo | October 27, 02:40 CET

Great update, Joss. It'll be a great season heavily hackslashededited or not. Well, it had better be(no pressure).

jaxn | October 27, 03:23 CET

It is great to hear from the Master. I am always blown away by his take on the 'verse.

Livewire | October 27, 03:44 CET

Re: arc Vs stand-alone. I do like a mix but I absolutely hate it when something big happens character wise and then gets ignored for several stand-alone eps before being picked up again as if the stand alone eps didn't just occur. That just annoys me to no end. There needs to at least be an acknowlegement if something major happened recently - a small nod of sorts towards this happanstance within the standalone episode. A "yes, we know this just happened, we haven't forgotten, it will be delt with later". The arc should always be there in the background, not nessasarily the season's plot arc, but always the character arcs. /end rant.

Yes, I'm not very happy with the tv shows I've been watching of late. I really miss BSG and can't wait for Dollhouse.

Aviva | October 27, 03:46 CET

PuppetDoug, you said, "1) stand-alones are going the way of the silent movie." That's just not true - look at the biggest hit of the new season, The Mentalist. Look at, well, the entire CBS lineup, really. From a strict ratings perspective, it doesn't matter that the CSI fans are less passionate or invested (or prone to go to websites and chat for hours) than those for serialized shows, there's still a hell of a lot more of them than for any serialized series. The loyalty of genre fans and fans of serialized series is notable and important to be certain, and yes, those shows get strong DVD sales and such. But a network would rather have a Law & Order than a Buffy the Vampire Slayer when it comes to looking at strict numbers.

Eric G | October 27, 03:51 CET

When rumors first started to come down the pike of... let's just say "conflict" with the network over how this show would go down, there were a few of us once bitten fans that got a trifle nervous. I seem to recall a vocal community of not-quite-so-bitten fans jumpin' on us and teling us to have faith... that Joss wouldn't let himself get screwed for a third (...fourth? ...fiftieth?) time. It got a little heated in fact, the faithful and the angry atheists in the fandom.

How do you tell someone you love, "I toldja so?" All in good fun, naturally. :)

Haunt | October 27, 04:10 CET

You're misrepresenting what that vocal community was saying to the panickers, Haunt. I don't remember it ever being couched as "Joss wouldn't let himself be screwed". It was explained as (1) back-and-forth with the network always happens in TV and (2) a different regime.

The post here does nothing to undo any of those arguments. And, arguably, the post here opens the door to us in that vocal community saying to your community of panickers, "I told you so." Heh.

(You also seem to be claiming the panic was evidence of the panickers having been more "bitten" by the pains of the past. I'm going to assume that's not what you meant, but if it was, I'd try to walk that back.)

[ edited by theonetruebix on 2008-10-27 04:20 ]

The One True b!X | October 27, 04:20 CET

This post has only heightened my need to enter The House. Stay awhile.

One nation under Joss.

alcabongtv | October 27, 04:21 CET

Okay, so my earlier comments were said in haste -- I've actually been calmed a bit by my fellow posters, here. After considering that my favorite shows of all time are Buffy, Babylon 5, and Quantum Leap, respectively, followed closely by Lost and BSG, I think I come down on the side of balancing, although I'd still say, an arc show you start losing patience with is still more satisfying than an episodic show that never pays off anything (like Smallville up until recently and Stargate stuff, or pre DS9 trek).

In terms of my words about the state of the market, I need to clarify my statements a bit, since I tend to be a bit of a neophile and I start saying predictions as if they're present-day phenomena. Serialized is a movement I'm predicting will rise, as the movie and television market begins to follow a comic book-style market paradigm. Audiences splitting into cliquish subcategories, shows being made exclusively for DVD, many shows with low ratings either continuing to be on air due to expected sales of DVDs, or going off the air and continuing to be made for DVD (Family Guy, HIMYM & T:TSCC are already showing this has begun). All this and more.

It's all a broader interpretation of the "wait for the trade" mentality. Content watchers, genre fans, and other dedicated viewers will begin slowly but surely favoring the DVD market where they can digest entire shows and long format arcs in days, while casual watchers will favor extremely episodic, formulaic shows. Basically, a polarization. The balancing acts, of which I really can only name Joss and his alumni at this point, will be home runs. But this may be over the course of the next fifteen years or so.

The internet changed everything. We just have no idea how much yet.

PuppetDoug | October 27, 04:45 CET

PuppetDoug: do more people 'wait for the trades'? Really? Personally I love reading a trade paperback (and a complete season DVD set) because of the continuity, but really I don't have the will power to wait: I always buy the comic book on the day it is released, and watch the TV show when it airs! There are shows/comics/storylines I lose patience with, but generally once my patience is exhausted I'll have no interest in revisiting it ever again, in any format.

embers | October 27, 05:10 CET

PuppetDoug, are you basing any of this off actual hard data/inside knowledge or is it pure conjecture based on what you would like to see happen?

TamaraC | October 27, 05:12 CET

Giles'chainsawchick Yes, indeedy. But let's not forget the door to the Magic Box blowing open and those six amazing words: "I'd like to test that theory." Ooooh, shivers! (I still wish Diamond Select Toys would produce a "Grave" Giles, complete w/energy ball. And a Ripper. Darn them! They had him designed, but claimed "There wasn't enough interest." Poppydash, I say!)

Have you seen any pictures of King Anthony? Oh, my, fanfic-inspiration overload!

But to keep this topicy - my first fanfic for Dollhouse (House'fic? Mmm, no. Sounds like that crotchety doctor. Doll'fic? Hmmm...) will feature none other than ASH.

'course, if Joss's brain somehow homes in on mine & sucks that idea out of it, and turns it into an episode, then...I won't have to write it. 'cause...it'll already exist.

Shadow starts an Ohmmm in hopes of linking to the Great Purple Brain.

ShadowQuest | October 27, 05:22 CET

Mr. Whedon has said before (if I were QuoterGal I'd have linkage or at least an exact quote, but - and this should prove it once & for all - I am not [er, not that there were a lot of people wondering]) that he *cannot* do "reset" tv. So those worrying should not equate "stand-alone"-y-ness with reset-y-ness.

Dialogue with network = normal. Creator being tired & stressed at about this point in the series development seems normal as well - long days, etc etc. This could be signs of serious Drive-like problems, or it could be signs of the show really getting its feet under it *before* it airs, which would be nothing but good. When there are words signed in purple saying the latter, I think going with the good is good. I think the more we dwell on the former, the more we create the former. Me, I'd rather just be patiently excited (second cousin to cautiously optimistic), and see how I feel when I actually, y'know, see it.

kalia | October 27, 05:34 CET

embers, I was at the Mike Richardson (Dark Horse Comics President) speech that he gave on the 16th at Portland State University, and he was saying that the "graphic novel" format is really taking off compared to the individual issues of comics which are staying stagnant at best.

I hate waiting for the stories also, so I continue to buy monthly comics, but with Joss comics, especially his recent Runaways, I almost feel that they're meant more for the trades than the monthlies because of how completely the stories in each issue are connected (and the huge wait times often involved between releases). Add in some extra bonuses that one can get depending on the publisher, and the graphic novel format is often the superior way to read comics these days. I just can't wait for my stories, though!

archon | October 27, 05:43 CET

So what's the alert level now? Beige? Peach? Some sort of pine colour?

zz9 | October 27, 05:49 CET

First Joss-post in three months! SWEET!

Hjermsted | October 27, 05:51 CET

Just a comment about the reworking/throwing out of the original pilot:

I watched the original version of the Firefly pilot ("Serenity") a while ago and was surprised that the changes between it and the final version were mostly for the very much better. I remember Tim Minear stating that Joss had struggled with the pilot to address all of the network's concerns. From what I could ascertain, it seemed that many of their suggestions (such as making Mal lighter) resulted in positive changes. That the network was unable to recognize the brilliance of Joss' vision in the end result and still insisted on a new pilot is however inexplicable (to me).

My point being that when Joss pays heed to network concerns while staying true to his vision and his story, the results can be amazing. So as long as he's happy with the results of the retooling, I'm placated. Can't wait for January.

Oh, and I've always been a huge fan of the ( ).

JossIzBoss | October 27, 06:26 CET

So... the show, Dollhouse (which none of us has ever seen)... has morphed from one thing into something slightly else.

I suppose this is the TV equivalent of a tree falling in the woods when no one else is around to hear it... only Joss has lent us his nearby ears.

I for one am stoked for Joss' new show. Starting in January, I'll be watching Dollhouse whether it lasts four episodes (ie. Drive) or several seasons (ie. Bones). I'm there! Joss.. Jane... Tim... DeSteve.. I am totally there. Keep at it. I am not worried.

As for the present, I am mostly concerned with why giant guinea pigs are running rampant in the absence of Peruvian flute bands. The answer to that will be forthcoming in a matter of days.

Following that, I have to learn the outcome of my simultaneous favorite/most hated show two years running. Though it has been an ongoing program, it has been suspending its viewers from the cliff for its entire run. I am talking, of course, about the US 2008 presidential elections.

I CANNOT WAIT to learn how the writers resolve THAT plotline. I hope this time, my emotional investment in the characters pays off (unlike the previous two seasons... 2000 and 2004 Elections). Writers.. be kind! I am fragile.
.

[ edited by Hjermsted on 2008-10-27 07:30 ]

Hjermsted | October 27, 07:19 CET

Earlier, didn't mean to be confusing or sound too official. This is just coming from being a writer, an amateur futant, and otherwise Grant Morrison-y, Alan Moore-y weirdo with little to do between commissioned rants, personal projects, and feeding my cat except to read Whedonesque and then wax futurist about what I think the trends will be. I'm sure I could spout all manner of statistical info at you, but even math majors don't like stats.

I too, read comics individually, but as someone who reads things for writing mostly, I end up picking up the individual issues from creators I trust (Joss, Warren Ellis, Alan Moore, Grant Morrison, Brian Vaughn), and the rest I'm either downloading or waiting for a collection. In TV, I did basically the same thing with HIMYM, buying because of the cast, and haven't really been able to keep up with it on TV. I'm also a big Chuck Lorre fan, so I got Big Bang Theory that way. Can't watch BSG on TV. Lost is just frustrating with week gaps, but I do it anyway cuz I wouldn't be able to wait it out like I do with BSG.

Not that anyone gives a crap what I do, just wanted to share. And I'm very lonely.

PuppetDoug | October 27, 08:32 CET

That's cool, PuppetDoug. We're all here to say a piece. And may I bid you welcome in our little room:)

Madhatter | October 27, 10:24 CET

So wonderful about JE. I've been reading recaps for season four of Battlestar Galactica at TWOP and giggled over the fact that Jacob the recapper thought that A+ wasn't enough for The Hub, and instead gave it three Shirtless Helos and a Starbuck's Haircut. Yeah, she's that good :}.

dreamlogic | October 27, 10:42 CET

I know, Jacob cracks me up right and left. He does such a spectacular job in the recaps. I'm just smiling whenever I read.

Madhatter | October 27, 11:23 CET

You're totally leaving your parentheses open, since that last one belongs to your emoticon. It's hurting my inner vestigial programmer, why isn't it hurting yours?

Cos my inner vestigial programmer is lazier than yours GVH (or just more into reusing code ;).

(it does bug me when you do a smiley which the recipient's email software then renders as an actual smiley face though, cos then the parentheses are clearly wide open. And since you don't often see a parenthetical as an entirely stand-alone sentence it might be ringing "unusual" bells too)

... and he was saying that the "graphic novel" format is really taking off compared to the individual issues of comics which are staying stagnant at best.

Rapid growth still doesn't mean more people "wait for the trade" though, it just means that market is growing more quickly. On a much smaller scale, the comics industry may have the same sort of issues that the TV industry is having with new distribution mechanisms in that the clear problem with "waiting for the trade" is that right now, there's a danger the comic will be cancelled if it doesn't sell enough single issues - which is the same with "waiting for the DVD" in that if everyone does that, the weekly episodes won't do well enough to sell advertising and so there won't be any DVDs to begin with.

(I guess it's not impossible we could end up with reality shows and a few episodic scripted shows basically subsidising the up-front costs of producing highly-serialised TV direct to DVD but that'd seem to require a fairly massive shake up of the current system)

Saje | October 27, 11:36 CET

ShadowQuest, I think my neighbors 3 doors down heard me when ASH appeared at the end of Grave And that appearance led to several theories I wanted to test!

And yes, I've seen many pics of ASH as Uther Pendragon. Yummy!

ASH on Dollhouse?

lights candles, gathers all psychic energy and aims it at Joss

Giles'chainsawchick | October 27, 11:49 CET

Yeah, I probably didn't write quite what he said, but he also made the point that there are a lot of people who only read comics by way of a graphic novel, which goes into what you were saying about some folks just waiting for the DVD and never watching weekly TV. I believe the full video of his speech will be up on Portland State's library website at some point, but as of now it still isn't up, so I don't know what the deal is there.

archon | October 27, 12:29 CET

Saje, isn't it more likely that the networks forced by lower ad revenue retreats to the procedurals and reality, leaving the more serialized shows for cable ?

With a few exceptions the networks seems incapable of combining high budget, high quality serialized storytelling with the steady erosion of audiences, strange that.
The issues with making shows more stand alone, more accessible, more action oriented seems to be a direct function of network desperation, if some of the returning stars of spring like 24, Lost and some of the new shows (Fringe, Dollhouse, Kings ?) doesn't improve the numbers things might get ugly(ier).

Interesting that THR seems to think that one reason that a number of shows including TSCC haven't been axed already is that the networks just doesn't want to renegotiate with the advertisers in the current economic climate.

Still have high hopes for a Whedon show on cable, less notes more creative freedom. Currently enjoying The Shield and Sons of Anarchy marvelling at what can be done on what must be much lower budgets, watching Fringe to see money poured down the drain.

ETA :

Curious about where DeKnight went ?
From THR,

"Starz is bringing "Spartacus" to life on the small screen, greenlighting a 13-episode series from executive producers Sam Raimi, Rob Tapert and Joshua Donen.

Steven S. DeKnight ("Smallville") has signed on as head writer and showrunner of the hourlong series, set in the brutal world of gladiators, said Starz Entertainment executive vp programming Stephan Shelanski."

[ edited by jpr on 2008-10-27 12:55 ]

jpr | October 27, 12:37 CET

By the way - I may be making this up (okay I am) - but I heard in the original pilot that Joss put together it was revealed that in Echo's past life (prior to being an Active), she used to be a vampire slayer :)

Joking... (and hoping a bit...).

Fantastic update Joss on the show and we all can't wait!!!!

Rogue Demon Hunter | October 27, 13:00 CET

I am very disappointed. I spent near 9 hours yesterday watching sports on FOX just waiting for this new Dollhouse trailer and there was nothing. I think I saw a preview for every show on FOX currently and another upcoming show, Lie to Me, but no Dollhouse. I'll try again tonight.

hitnrun017 | October 27, 14:32 CET

Saje, isn't it more likely that the networks forced by lower ad revenue retreats to the procedurals and reality, leaving the more serialized shows for cable ?

Maybe jpr. I wonder if the networks would be willing to cede so much ground though (or, alternatively, if cable would be). Course, that depends whether there's a definite split in the demographics between highly-serialised shows and more episodic shows (I really don't feel like there are any scripted shows out there that have no serial elements whatsoever, even the IMO unfairly maligned "procedural" has varying degrees of arc and character progression for the main cast these days) - if as many 18-49s watch serial TV as non then it doesn't make much difference, the networks and cable will just be competing for a smaller part of the same pie. But if it turns out most 18-49s prefer serial TV then I don't see the networks just giving them up (or vice versa for cable).

(or substitute 18-49 for whichever demo is most valuable to advertisers, not something I know much about)

Saje | October 27, 14:59 CET

It's always wonderful to hear from the man himself. No matter how many changes Joss has had to make in the past to satisfy studios, he always has managed to create wonderful shows so far. I can't wait for this new show. Also, I need something new to love...I'm wearing out my Buffy, Angel, and Firefly disks...can they wear out?

Passion | October 27, 15:53 CET

Apparently all that's required for Joss to post is for me to go away for 24 hours. (Thank you--I'll be demonstrating more post hoc fallacies at yourlogicisnotlikeourearthlogic.com). Note the period (AKA full-stop) outside the parentheses. Very excited, like the other 200+ posters, about the Dollhouse news. Duty calls! Away!

Maeve | October 27, 15:54 CET

Thanks for the Oregon-centric shout out, Sir Jossy! You NEED to come and visit our state sooner than... well, soon.

J Linc | October 27, 16:31 CET

Eliza. Watching her on the monitors at two o'clock this morning I was reminded forcibly how much I wished I were in bed

Yes, I get a similar feeling when watching Eliza ... wait, did you mean something different?

zaphod | October 27, 16:57 CET

We miss you Joss, thank you for poking your head in. :-)

zaphod | October 27, 16:58 CET

Jane? I'm in.

As if I wasn't before.

death is my gift | October 27, 19:22 CET

I know this wasn't the intent, but now I'm worried. An entire character gone because there isn't enough time to do what Joss wanted to do with the character's arc? That's what makes me the most worried, that we're losing now everything that November's interactions and development would reveal about Echo and this world.

gus | October 27, 19:24 CET

Just like when Serenity went off the rails, this is Joss offering brave face. Dollhouse is doomed.

gatozhian | October 27, 19:51 CET

Pointy | October 27, 19:58 CET

This will not make it past episode 6. I'm not even going to bother. I love the man and his work, but when he trots out to make one of his "don't worry" speeches, it's time to worry.

gatozhian | October 27, 20:36 CET

Chill, e-peeps. If people watch, the show stays on the air. If people don't, we get 13 hours of incredibly great storytelling on DVD. Worrying changes nothing -- except perhaps damaging our blood pressure, mood, and that impressive air of cool we displayed through three nationally televised debates . . . wait a minute. Sidetracked. We can fill the coming months with anticipation or anxiety. But not with knowledge of the final outcome. I'm looking forward to great stuff.

Pointy has the best attitude ever.

This will not make it past episode 6. I'm not even going to bother. I love the man and his work, but when he trots out to make one of his "don't worry" speeches, it's time to worry.

gatozhian does not.

daedreams | October 27, 20:40 CET

What an EXCELLENT day to come back to the black! I've missed this world, and now that I'm almost caught up on life, it's time to reach out to the community. :) *waves*

I'm a little bummed about the pilot. "Zombie slaves" is probably my favorite line so far. Perhaps it'll come again... great. Now I'm fighting urges to take a look at the seven black books.

Another cheers for Dexter while a thumbs-down for Fox. Just got a DVR and I have nothing to record! Who watches baseball at home??? Weird. How long must this torment last?

korkster | October 27, 20:42 CET

YAY Joss! YAY Jane! Although I can't say that I am 100% at ease, I am so psyched about this show. I want it to premiere tonight!

montresor | October 27, 20:52 CET

I am a member of the Pointy School of fan philosophizing.

Sunfire | October 27, 20:54 CET

Awh, gatozhian just needs a hug. C'mere . . .

(gatozhian)

(gatozhian) has been hurt before, you know, by the caprices of network television. We all have. It makes us, sometimes, a little bit afraid to love again. But if we let that fear run our lives, then we miss out on the good shows life has to offer, and our fear of losing again keeps us from loving again. Like the creepy old dustbag in the wedding dress in the Dickens novel. Bleak Expectations, I think it's called.

Pointy | October 27, 20:58 CET

That explains the 5 year old cake shaped like Serenity we've been keeping under glass all this time.

Sunfire | October 27, 21:01 CET

Actually, the last time gatozhian chimed in about Joss and "don't worry" it was, I believe, over the move of Serenity to September, not about the caprices of network television. (User profiles are your friends.)

[ edited by theonetruebix on 2008-10-27 21:02 ]

The One True b!X | October 27, 21:01 CET

More recently, on this page, there is a reference to not making it past episode six. If that's not a reference to Star Wars, it's a reference to network television.

Grasping for ways to correct people that do not in fact correct anything . . . is no one's friend.

Pointy | October 27, 21:10 CET

He was talking here about TV, yes. But he was making here a direct reference back to his original use of the phrase "brave face", which was back then, about Serenity.

I was simply giving the context of his prior participation on this site, way back in 2004, since he himself was referencing it with the use of that specific phrase. (Except that I mistakenly, in my prior comment used "don't worry" instead of "brave face".)

[ edited by theonetruebix on 2008-10-27 21:46 ]

The One True b!X | October 27, 21:44 CET

Saje said, I wonder if the networks would be willing to cede so much ground though

The question might not be whether they are willing to, but rather that they have to, a network executive might consider it a tactical retreat to higher ground before the web-orcs swarm the walls and eat their lunch, CBS is already there, the other networks might try to follow with varying combinations of reality and procedurals.

But you're right it's not a binary thing most scripted shows does have serialized elements, but when you read the same comments over and over, the network wants more standalone episodes, less serialized, easier access, it sends a pretty clear message , if you're a writer with a specific heavily serialized story to tell you're better off somewhere else, if you sell it to one of the big networks you're not going to be able to tell that story. Go Cable !

And yes I'm with Pointy too, at the very least we'll get a 13 episode dvd set with the best storytelling around, much better than nothing.

jpr | October 27, 21:50 CET

B!X, perhaps he just likes the phrase...

But then, when Serenity came along I was all new and shiny to the 'verse, and full of enthusiasm for this tv creator I'd watched the entire works of in a summer, so what do I know.

I think Pointy should hug everyone. Forcibly. Just cos it'd be fun to watch them struggle...

skittledog | October 27, 21:53 CET

I think Pointy should hug everyone. Forcibly. Just cos it'd be fun to watch them struggle...

I wont struggle :) Hugs are good! And also, comfy.

Garim | October 27, 21:56 CET

I'm with Pointy we all just need a hug to erase the pains of network past. All right everyone go! Everyone hugging? No? Just me?

None of us can tell what is in store for DH (perhaps except for a few time traveling/future seeing villains out there) but I see no reason to be all doom and gloom. I think by now most of us have heard all the various reasons why Dollhouse might not make it. We get it. It suffers from being a midseason show on a network that has treated us wrong in the past. But this is a Joss creation. He may have been struggling, but that's part of the creative process and it implies that he cares that much about keeping the show true to his vision. (Even if it becomes different from his original idea.)

If you can't trust Fox, trust Joss and what he has to say. And wait for the final product. It's only a few months away. :)

EDIT: For the writing of good English.

[ edited by Likewithpie on 2008-10-27 22:01 ]

Likewithpie | October 27, 21:57 CET

I will always have faith in Joss, but I have yet to regain my trust in Fox.

True, they are giving Fringe and T:SCC the benefit of full seasons, but I am more inclined to believe jpr as to their reasoning for keeping these shows on the air. Especially when the day after widespread rumors of T:SCC's pending cancellation were circulating the Interweb, I receive an e-mail from Fox about their Dodge truck contest tie-in. The full season announcement followed a few days later.

Trepidation aside, I am eagerly awaiting Dollhouse's premiere (I have yet to meet a Joss show that I didn't like), and am very squeeful over Jane's addition!

[ edited by MizBehavin1 on 2008-10-27 22:33 ]

MizBehavin1 | October 27, 22:31 CET

Have a look at how Joss' remarks are being covered elsewhere. It's not good.

Simon | October 27, 22:40 CET

Maybe Joss needs to think seriously about some big product placement/commercial contest thing with 'Dollhouse'... Dodge truck probably can't afford to do another show, but there must be some company willing to have their product photographed with the beautiful Eliza/Echo!

embers | October 27, 22:42 CET

Not to harp on this but can you catch anything from a virtual hug ? Only I recently wasn't burned in any way by not catching an STD from Joss' post which has made me understandably leery of potentially not catching all kinds of diseases. All it takes is a few minor changes to the laws of physics and suddenly we're all catching stuff left right and centre - i'm just sayin'.

Whedon Alert Level: Biege with dark brown elbow patches.

(and jeez, if the news leaks out without an official announcement it's all over, if the guy tries to stem the tide by being upfront about the situation it's all over - talk about damned if you do and damned if you don't)

Saje | October 27, 22:42 CET

After a quick google, it looks like IGN's article is pretty impartial, TV Squad's is negative but hopeful, iFMagazine's is impartial, iO9's is slightly positive, Aceshowbiz has one that is pretty impartial as does SyFyPortal. Slashfilm's also seems pretty positive.

Are you seeing something different, Simon?

TamaraC | October 27, 22:57 CET

Yeah, sod the negative buzz. I think it would be quite difficult for a show that has been known about for a while, already delayed in its starting date, with a creator who can be easily identified to the masses (as 'that one who had that crazy show about that blonde chick'), which now has anything approaching concrete evidence of problems - that's a story, right there. If the same story had happened to Fringe I think it'd have been even bigger news. Media bubble thing. I dunno... although obviously I'm a little worried about poor ratings/cancellation, I can't actually be too scared about that yet because I don't know the characters and the world. Once I fall in love with them, of course, it's a whole different ballgame, and the cancellations of various shows still sting like hell... but not yet. My own minor increase in worry was simply the fear that interference may make me not like the show as much as I could have done. That's all. Except... I didn't just express that very well so I doubt anyone has a clue what I'm saying, but whatever, I felt like saying it and I'm sure this blackness can swallow up my nonsense.

All it takes is a few minor changes to the laws of physics and suddenly we're all catching stuff left right and centre

Well at least, being a girl, I have fewer places I can catch things.

Did that distract you enough for Pointy's covert hug attack to succeed?

skittledog | October 27, 23:03 CET

Are you seeing something different, Simon?

Like most people, I look at the headlines.

"Dollhouse really did almost fall apart says Joss" - io9.

"Original Dollhouse pilot will not air!!!!"- AICN.

"How’s ‘Dollhouse’ Coming? Great, Claims Miserable Joss Whedon ..." - NYMag's Vulture

"Is Fox burning down Whedon's Dollhouse? -" Sidereel

"Joss Whedon Still Fighting For Injured Dollhouse" - TheBadandUgly.com

Oh No They Didn't was as predictable as ever

"Is Dollhouse such a mess?" - TVoholic.com

Simon | October 27, 23:05 CET

TV Squad

Basically, it's suffering from the "network interference syndrome" that has plagued so many other shows in the past and forced them to early cancellation. . . . I admit a little concern when production shut down on the show. But Joss has navigated the network executive waters before and has hopefully learned how to deal with it. Granted, expectations for anything Joss-produced are sky-high but since networks are investing more in existing shows due to the crappy economy, I'd like to think they'd give someone like Joss Whedon, who has a proven track of television success record a chance.

IFMagazine

So there you have it. Fights with the network, a scrapped pilot, and character shifts. All in a day's work in the Whedonverse.

Sy Fy Portal
[Basically recaps Joss's post.]

Coverage appears neither good nor bad, just, I am shocked to type, fairly accurate.

Worst-case scenario: A complete 13-hour arc (not half an incomplete 26-hour arc) by our favorite writer(s) with a great cast and a great premise. The worst-case scenario is damn good.

ETA hyphen. And updated piraticon:

P-[]

[ edited by Pointy on 2008-10-27 23:09 ]

Pointy | October 27, 23:05 CET

Has our Whedon Alert color scale taken into account the vast number of people suffering from colorblindness? Just wondering if we're going for the token PC vote in our convolutedness...

Emmie | October 27, 23:12 CET

Simon, however, is right that the headlines is what most people will know of the matter.

The One True b!X | October 27, 23:13 CET

Running through some of the summaries is an assumption that the studio is interfering in a bad way and that it's going to be bad for the show, with hints of cancellation if it continues. Pointy highlighted the two where that seemed strongest.

"Network inteference syndrome." Heh. That sounds similar to Loser's Lurgy.

Sunfire | October 27, 23:15 CET

Well at least, being a girl, I have fewer places I can catch things.

Oh, they'll let girls into most places nowadays, still plenty of catching opportunities.

(and not a chance - one of the first skills they teach you at the Shaolin Monastery is the Jade Tortoise, a highly sophisticated manoeuvre that, to the untrained eye, resembles 'ducking out the way' - in fact the whole first term is pretty much geared towards not being hugged by surprise)

Apart from a few slightly scarifying headlines, the top 7 hits on Google news for 'joss whedon dollhouse' (without quotes) are fairly impartial or maybe even cautiously optimistic I reckon. From what I gather from more knowledgeable folks on here, headlines are generally written by the editor and don't reflect the content but I guess if people are consuming their news purely from headlines then yeah, it looks worse than it arguably is. But the thing is, if you care enough to go looking, why just read the headline - wouldn't you want to know actual information ?

Saje | October 27, 23:16 CET

ET substitute: What Sajesaid. Most people won't pay attention until there's a show to watch. Which is probably the right time.

[ edited by Pointy on 2008-10-27 23:18 ]

Pointy | October 27, 23:16 CET

Honestly, after reading some of these posts, I had to go back and re-read what Joss wrote:
This kind of back and forth has happened on every show I've done, so if you liked those, chances are that was a part of why.
I believe this. I'm sure he made all kinds of compromises & changes on his other shows--that's just the way it works.
And all three of those shows are frikkin' amazing.

the progression of the first thirteen eps has me massively excited. The episode we're shooting now I wrote as fast as anything I have before
Sounds like this one might also be frikkin' amazing. Put me down in the happy camp. (But no group hug. Those make me nervous.)

I'll worry about viewership when there's actually something to view or not to view.

jcs | October 27, 23:17 CET

(((((group hug)))))

)))))group awkward shuffling away(((((

Pointy | October 27, 23:20 CET

Are we still hugging as we shuffle away ? Cos that would be awkward.

Most people really aren't paying attention. They will when there's a show to watch.

And exactly Pointy. 'Bionic Woman' was even more troubled with show-runners leaving and so on and yet that premiered with about 13½ million viewers (I mean, it lost them very quickly after that but the initial bums were on seats, it's just that the show didn't deliver). Most people don't follow news like this.

Saje | October 27, 23:25 CET

I'm disappointed that Miracle Laurie's new role sounds boring.

Otherwise, I'm with Pointy, "[i]f people watch, the show stays on the air. If people don't, we get 13 hours of incredibly great storytelling on DVD."

moley75 | October 27, 23:30 CET

)(Pointy)( imprisoned by angry huggees.

skittledog | October 27, 23:32 CET

I'll agree the headlines in general are pretty negative and you guys are right, that is what most will take away.

TamaraC | October 27, 23:33 CET

Are we still hugging as we shuffle away ? Cos that would be awkward.

Ouch. That would stretch Pointy beyond limits. Which, not a good thing.

Also: agreeage on the point that people will really start paying attention when the show airs. On the other hand: this is hitting most of the entertainment blogs and sites, so general entertainment-fans, not necessarily interested in news about Dollhouse also read this, which means there's certainly preselection, but maybe not just the assumened selection (Joss Whedon fans reading up on Dollhouse). The thing that might be tricky there, is that the people reading these sites might be the ones "in the know" and possibly function as 'word of mouth' opinion makers.

Then again, Saje's 'Bionic Woman' example would prove that even if that effect is there, it's certainly not enough to doom a show (not that I expected it to be).

All in all: I'm not worried about the show or about Fox. The only thing I sometimes worry about is the negative buzz that's forming because of headlines like these and - a bit of - misinterpreted fan response. I don't expect that to influence the fate of the show directly (don't overestimate internethypes, both negative or positive), but I'd rather that the stories were all positive.

GVH | October 27, 23:37 CET

Course, in fairness, 'Bionic Woman' would've probably had a "nostalgia quotient" of 30 somethings that turned up to watch, whatever happened, just to see what it's like. But I doubt that'd account for the whole 13+ million.

The DVD issue is one of the few advantages of being seen as rabid maniacs - they can be pretty sure if they put out a DVD we'll buy it so it always makes sense to put out a DVD of Joss' stuff. That and we'd probably win at 'Chicken'.

Apparently fans of Tim Minear don't seem as bonkers cos we're still waiting for 'The Inside' on DVD (which i'd buy like a shot).

Saje | October 27, 23:41 CET

Comment from a friend after reading Joss' post:

Well, I still have faith.

Literally. On DVD.

I wish I'd said that. So I copied and pasted it so it looked like I did.

skittledog | October 27, 23:48 CET

For certain 2009 will bring awesomeness to my viewing screen. I just can't know how much. I shall face this dilemma bravely. Resolutely. Steadfastly, courageously and other heroic adverbially.

The other question is whether a nifty twist of potential plot I got off public radio will lead Adelle to tell Topher in her coldest: "I would prefer to think that Dollhouse security does not depend entirely on our ability to deploy weaponized karaoke."

ETA Correct Link =D

ETA rest of verb.

[ edited by Pointy on 2008-10-28 17:48 ]

Pointy | October 28, 00:02 CET

Hee!

Emmie | October 28, 00:08 CET

Ah spoiler tags. Must...not...look! Darn you Pointy. Darn you.

Likewithpie | October 28, 00:31 CET

It's only something I made up, not a real spoiler. (Although my suggested subtitle for Buffy Season 8 was Lestastico . . .)

Pointy | October 28, 00:38 CET

Fond memories of PIGS.

Sunfire | October 28, 03:24 CET

Bliss it was to be a PIG, but to be off was piggy heaven.

Pointy | October 28, 04:28 CET

Oh Joss, ~~ le sigh ~~

Farfel Farfel Pfffific!!! I missed the moment of your posting and I'm too tired to make up a new swear word/phrase (a shiny dime for you to go with your dozens of dollars or anyone who knows where I grabbed that from).

I'm just glad you and Dollhouse are still truckin' and It's alive. Alive! (as long as you don't mean a hand with a claw emerging from a baby carriage, b/c then, too scary, even if it is the season).

Tonya J | October 28, 05:43 CET

I just had a thought.

What if Joss didn't REALLY get rid of November, but instead decided to start her off BEFORE she BECAME November.

Whoa, chills! Anybody else get chills?

[ edited by Racoon Boy on 2008-10-28 06:41 ]

Racoon Boy | October 28, 06:40 CET

Racoon Boy, you mean back when she was still October? :)

Shapenew | October 28, 06:54 CET

Tonya: "Farfel Farfel Pfffific!!!"

"N-E-S-T-L-E-S, Nestlé makes the very best... chawck-lit!"

Eh??!? Eh!!!!?

No? Well, I didn't really think so - I just loved that lil' puppet-dog, especially when he snapped his jaws shut.

Okay, how about "Farfel, Farfel...Pippick!" from Bob Hope's Casanova's Big Night?

Did I win it? Did I win the shiny new di-yum?

QuoterGal | October 28, 08:02 CET

Ok, you know Farfel.

But what about Danny O'Day? Ftatateeta? Who were the other ones. (What did I do with that old album, anyway?)

"It's all around me! It's all around me!"

"What is?"

"My belt."

ETA that I just found the cassette tape I made from the vinyl.

[ edited by theonetruebix on 2008-10-28 08:16 ]

The One True b!X | October 28, 08:11 CET

Giles'chainsawchick Tony's site has just updated the news section - Merlin will air on Sunday nights "from 8-9pm."

So I think we're safe in the head-boomage department.

Yes?

No?

But if he makes a special guest appearance in the episode ~~I wrote~~ I'm thinking of, then...it'd be all good.

ShadowQuest | October 28, 08:36 CET

ShadowQuest, YAY!!! My head couldn't take many more booms. Plus it was messing up my hair.

Could you make it several guest appearances? There's just not enough Tony on TV.

still sending all my psychic energy towards Joss

Giles'chainsawchick | October 28, 09:20 CET

Oh, is it Pippick? I did it from very faded memory. Holds onto the shiny dime for QG.

Tonya J | October 28, 13:34 CET

I don't think of Lost and Prison Break as "arc" shows; they're "to be continued" shows; each episode exists only to advance the continued story (frequently as a series of cliff-hangers.) Stand-alone shows have no extended story, or none beyond "tomorrow's another day in the life of ...." Arc shows have both an extended story and today's story, with the bits cunningly intertwined, so that you can see looking back what each part was advancing, but looking now, you don't know if this scene is arc, today, or both.

(Belated birthday greetings to theonetruebix!)

htom | October 28, 17:02 CET

Less text Joss.
And play world of warcraft in the spare time you are penciling in right now, you get to beat up zombies.

Pumps | October 29, 02:16 CET

What did Joss mean by his last sentence here:

Similarly, the character of November has fallen out of the mix, because the show simply moves too fast now for me to do what I wanted with her. Season three, anyone...?

[ edited by Simon on 2008-11-01 08:41 ]

buzzkill | October 31, 17:28 CET

I took it to mean it's something he might go back and explore at a later date (e.g. in season 3).

Saje | October 31, 17:31 CET

Wow.
A couple of days late for Joss' post (or maybe there was one more recent and I haven't looked around enough yet) but really, I'm so thrilled! I mean really, it's like 1 am and I find out

Joss has Jane!!

and I kind of want to yell it to the mountaintops. But all of you already know, and my brother is asleep.

But hey, at least I get to yell it back to you all, cause finally - after two years* - I pop in here today and Membership is not Closed! Whee! (it didn't occur to me that Halloween is a holiday, I tend to forget Halloween, I was waiting for Veteran's day.. I just wandered by today.)

But again - hooray for Jane!
One of my all-time favorite Buffy eps is Pangs. Of course I hear that with Buffy eps you can't always blame the ep writer for the awesomeness (I hear some of the best lines ever were "Joss polishes.") But till someone tells me different, every time my brother or I say "quarter cup of Brandy and let it simmer" we will always think of Jane. Especially on Thanksgiving.

So, yay!

(and tonight I watched Private Practice**, and it was okay. Sunday I watched Mad Men and it was awesome. I see Marti is going for those show with alliterative titles.)

My brother, Baylink, who recently got to join in a Dr Horrible sing-along at a Con (lucky him! I'm broke and couldn't afford $25 for just that one thing) should be along sometime soon.

*I think it was two years ago that Shonda Rhimes mentioned being a Buffy fan (and someone cross-linked here into someplace I was posting. Greyswriters perhaps) and at the time I had something I wanted to say - which I now forget. The link is still here but the article is gone, so I totally forget the context.
Hey, at least I am randomly persistent. (and I swear that today, I wrote (somewhere) that something "gave me a happy." Friends who have never watched Buffy think that I talk funny....)

**I thought Marti had *left* Private Practice. Am I confused?

Pamelajaye | November 01, 06:30 CET

oh, and there *was* a more recent post - and I'd already read it...
sorry bout that
short memory I guess. either that or it's just really late here.

Pamelajaye | November 01, 06:34 CET

Buzzkill you didn't close your bold tag properly.

The One True b!X | November 01, 06:36 CET

Yeah, I tried but for some reason the following poster can't close a bold tag in the same way they can close an italic tag.

Saje | November 01, 09:24 CET

I just want to know why, after all they have done (those evil bastards), WHY do ANYTHING with FOX? They mess with all the good stuff! They stole Firefly! Hijacked it! And made it go away! *sniff* And then Buffy had to relocate...but thankfully, continued to exist...and now lives permanently in my DVD player. It just busts my buttons that FOX doesn't know a good thing when it's kicking them in the groin! Dummies...

Love myself some Josh. And can't wait for more Dr. Horrible fun.

jj_pooter | November 01, 13:18 CET

I thought Saje was just extremely excited about the prospects of Season 3.

Sunfire | November 01, 14:45 CET

Mmmmm, prospects. Humina humina.

Saje | November 01, 15:13 CET

Love myself some Josh. And can't wait for more Dr. Horrible fun.

Yep, he's almost as good as Joss's evil twin Ross whom, I understand, got a mention at the Singalong last night.

Lioness | November 01, 15:27 CET

Careful people, there's a reason he's called "Pointy" (although as I write that, maybe there's two points, a la Madonna early 90's)

Dollhouse will be awesome. My only concern is how good My Own Worst Enemy is. It's *very* good, and thematically it does seem close to the Dollhouse core ideas.

That said, how many hostpital, lawyer and police shows are there, and they all get good runs. Why can't there be two "my characters have two personalities and one of them gets their memory wiped - OR DO THEY?" shows. :-)

[ edited by zaphod on 2008-11-03 01:48 ]

[ edited by zaphod on 2008-11-03 01:49 ]

zaphod | November 03, 01:46 CET

jj_pooter: "I just want to know why, after all they have done (those evil bastards), WHY do ANYTHING with FOX?"

Because - "all this has happened before and will happen again."

*giggle*

(Sorry. I couldnae help myself. Forgive.)

Oh, yeah, and hee! Lioness - Jed said, "Joss' Evil Twin" at the SingAlong. It made me snort-laugh unattractively.

ETA: Wait - it now occurs to me - maybe Joss was dressed as Josh for Halloween at the SingAlong. Or maybe... Joe Swedon?

[ edited by QuoterGal on 2008-11-03 02:37 ]

QuoterGal | November 03, 02:35 CET

I saw an action-packed Dollhouse commercial while skimming through a Terminator episode on Fox on Demand. Topher quote spoiler: This is cutting edge science in a house full of hot chicks.

[ edited by Pointy on 2008-11-04 06:33 ]

Pointy | November 04, 03:25 CET

Wow. Looking back on this depresses the pessimist in me (which I suppose isn't that hard to do...), as it reminds me the show probably wouldn't have been in this mess if Fox would have just (excuse me for a moment while I breathe deeply in)

LET THE MAN WRITE HIS OWN SHOW!

There is a reason this website exists: we love Joss for his writing skills (and use of the word poppycock). So get your hands out of his pie, Fox!

chayes | April 14, 00:56 CET

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