Ouch, sounds like a big giveaway. Did Scott get the chance to review that?

Numfar PTB | October 30, 08:40 CET

Did I miss something? Did you see which character would die? All I read seemed mostly known.

If I'm missing something obvious, I blame it on the drugs.

dreamlogic | October 30, 09:13 CET

This information is new.

Putting two and two gather, I think Joss is going to kill off Willow. I would speculate that Buffy kills future Willow thus setting off a chain of events that leads the bizarro world that begins in #21. Perhapss Willow will get eradicated from the time line all together.

Simon | October 30, 09:52 CET

Assuming it really is Willow who dies -- given how weak and drained she looks, do we really expect her to live on when Buffy has left? I was hoping for a great death scene for Old Crazed Willow. Forcing Buffy to kill her would fit the bill nicely.

But to be honest, mentally I have already moved on to the next arc. Cool vampires in our world seem so much more interesting than any one possible future that is probably going to change anyway. I thought the last issue was weak, I don't like the artist, and now the hiatus has been so long that any suspense has been lost.

Fray has become a bore. All I want is to have Buffy come back home and get on with the real show.

scotws | October 30, 10:57 CET

Yeah, gotta say, would have avoided this spoiler if I cared much about this arc. Maybe the last episode will swing it back for me, but I've never been hot on this arc. I don't like time travel unless it's integral to the show (too much head screwing / too much 'magic undo button' / too much clearly going to screw up continuity), Willow going evil once was fair enough, but to make her do it again, and the whole "ooh, the goodies will start fighting each other" was already done more or less with the second Arc much better. And if they wipe out the Fray timeline I'll be pissed because it means no Fray 2 (unlikely as it was), the introduction to the 'verse of the whole concept of wiping out timelines (a bad idea) and it seems a lame way from getting from "all these slayers" to "none of these slayers and no magic either". Thought their would be a better way of doing it. Plus, Twilight seems to be a good big bad, more of that please. Shame Moline will be more remembered for this than Fray (which is wonderfully drawn).

Sparticus | October 30, 12:21 CET

Ah, me.(I hope it is only FDW and not always here morally ambiguous yet adorable Willow.). I am pinning my hopes on the fact that she's on the cover of the animated Buffy issue.

Oh, I hope this isn't it--there's still so much left to find out, like about the mystical walkabout and snakelady and such:/ Granted, death isn't permanent, but...!

I guess we'll see.

JessicaMelusine | October 30, 13:05 CET

I don't wanna see Willow die. But even if she does -- assuming it's future Willow who dies -- she will have lived several hundered years, so it's not like Joss is ending her life prematurely! When the timeline reverts to present day the Willow character can continue for a very long time. This just jumps ahead to reveal her eventual demise.

SteveP | October 30, 13:25 CET

That is a really big thing to give away although I suspect that maybe Amazon posted this on the bases of issue 19 was already supposed to be out by now and they didn't factor in the delay in release.

Buffyfantic | October 30, 14:17 CET

I hope that nether present Willow dies nor Fray future didn't happen couse this will make a time paradox (wonn't be a future gray Willow, Buffy couldn't meet Fray, etc). Of course, if we go to a certain Doctor's realm everything is possible.

Brasilian Chaos Man | October 30, 14:23 CET

Wibly wobly timey wimey.

Numfar PTB | October 30, 14:31 CET

I also figured that it Willow was going to die. And it makes all kinds of sense. Which is now why I have to assume it is someone else. If I can figure it out, I have to be wrong.

Dana5140 | October 30, 14:42 CET

Maybe Buffy is going to die. Again. Then she could be magically transported to TV land. Or maybe Faith could die, that way freeing her up to star in Dollhouse.

Uh...

No really, Dark Willow's going to die, and Present Willow's going to look through the portal and see herself die, and Buffy be somehow involved. And then she's going to realise she's evil.

Which reminds me though, someone should start taking bets on who's going to die first in Dollhouse.

Sparticus | October 30, 15:00 CET

Which reminds me though, someone should start taking bets on who's going to die first in Dollhouse.

November?

Brasilian Chaos Man | October 30, 15:08 CET

To be different, I'll go for Xander. Not that I WANT Xander to die, mind you...

[ edited by Dan Corson on 2008-10-30 15:49 ]

Dan Corson | October 30, 15:48 CET

November does seem like a safe bet, hence why I think it's not going to be her. I think it's going to be the Handler.

Also, Dan Corson, are you related to Don Carson? Because that'd be awesome.

Sparticus | October 30, 16:02 CET

C'mon, the arc is called "Time of Your Life." Obviously, Green Day's going to die. They're going to be on a barge in a polluted, future lake, and...oh, wait.

pat32082 | October 30, 16:23 CET

Dark Willow dying at Buffy's hands would be the most tragic, the most dramatic twist, which is why I think it needs to happen. I say this despite being a Willow/Dark Willow fan. I know how I'd write the scene, how it would involve other revelations as to why Dark Willow has become what she has (hint: it wouldn't involve Kennedy, but a certain blonde witch we once knew). The scene should utterly tear Buffy apart. It should be gut wrenching drama is what I'm sayin'.

Joss and I are probably not on the exact same wavelength, though, so who knows what he'll do. Wherever he goes, I'll keep reading.

quantumac | October 30, 17:50 CET

Okay, if it is GrayWillow who dies, then perhaps the enxt step is to change whatever caused her to lvie so long. And heck, we found in "Dopplegaengland" (I don't know how to umlaut, sorry) that even universes supposedly totally destroyed . . . aren't.

but I do have to cosnider again if it's right for me to continue buying this material; I think payign somebody money just to look at soemthing I've ceased to take seriously is a tacky thing to do to the seller, who thinks my share of the pie represents real fandom.

DaddyCatALSO | October 30, 17:52 CET

My guess is that it's Willow. Like, Willow.

If you look at the plans for upcoming episodes, Willow is unaccounted for in any of the upcoming arc of standalones. What's more, we have been told that the one shots deal with reaction to the major event -- we've taken it as given that this means the upcoming major change in 8.21. But wouldn't it also be a non-descript way to to describe the death of a major character?

It's Buffy's books. Kennedy is already on cover art, and plus "major" would sound like a stretch. Giles and Faith haven't been in the arc at all, so it would be really awkward. Xander and Dawn are in the (relatively) lighter "B" plot.

I *hope* it's FDW, but I'm not taking that as a given just because it is obvious and safe, and this is Joss. I'm going to say Willow or FDW is the likeliest by far, with reason to worry about Xander and Dawn. But, since we've had a few spoilers about Xander from Jeanty, and we know that they have an issue in the arc of one-shots planned, I tend to think they are safe.

KingofCretins | October 30, 18:26 CET

Somehow "major" didn't register with me. You folks make some compelling arguments that it's Willow. Her character is so convoluted and multiple at this point, though, seems like it would have to be made very clear which one, and over what time period, to have dramatic impact.

Joss said once that he would never kill Willow, but that was back when Alyson Hannigan was playing her. Maybe he's changed his mind.

dreamlogic | October 30, 19:36 CET

Joss also said writing for Buffy and Willow moved him to tears writing 8.10. I, for one, thought that was very nice, but found their conversation didn't remotely move me that way. It was very poignant, but crying?

But if it was arguably their last real, intimate conversation as friends? What would it be like to write that?

KingofCretins | October 30, 19:51 CET

As a novelist, I've written scenes which moved me to tears, because I felt the entirety of the experience, as though I were a living participant. My readers, on the other hand, did not feel as strongly.

So Joss' words about "being moved to tears writing 8.10" really echo with me. It's difficult to convey the entirety of emotion in just text and pictures. You can't tell the reader what to feel, what to listen for, or how to pace what they're reading.

Suzanne Vega said it best in her song "Language." I quote:

I won't use words again
They don't mean what I meant
They don't say what I said
They're just the crust of the meaning
With realms underneath
Never touched
Never stirred
Never even moved through

When I read Season 8, I try to go back a second or third time and fill in the time between frames, try to imagine what the characters are feeling. I view it as an exercise to strengthen my empathy muscles. :)

quantumac | October 30, 20:18 CET

It better not be that future monkey watcher is all I'm sayin'.

Brian Lynch | October 30, 20:21 CET

It better not be that future monkey watcher is all I'm sayin'.

Gohan! If this will be the "StarBuck Battle"?

Brasilian Chaos Man | October 30, 20:28 CET

No Brian, it's gonna be a dragon named Cordelia. Definitely the dragon gets it. :)

quantumac | October 30, 20:29 CET

Only a complete jerk would kill the dragon!

Is the monkey gonna get it's own spin-off. I'm serious, that first panel of him brightened my day.

Brian Lynch | October 30, 20:42 CET

Maybe the monkey could team up with some goats.

The One True b!X | October 30, 20:48 CET

Theoretically, it *could* be Vi or Kennedy, but that would mean that Scott and Joss both owe some serious apology for the willful abuse of the term "major". I mean, if IDW were to release news for the last "Angel: After the Fall" TPB and say it would lead to the death of a "major character for the TV series", and then he brought in and killed off David Nabbit, that would be BS.

Sorry for spoiling the end of "Angel: After the Fall" Issue #17, Brian.

No, "major character from the TV series" at this point only means... Giles, Faith, Buffy, Willow, Dawn, Xander. Andrew would also be a pretty considerable abuse of "major". Besides, three of those characters haven't even been in this arc. Unless he's going to go with a totally tacked on, last two pages offing of a major character? I mean... maybe? But I doubt it. And FDW is pretty much a cop-out, too.

KingofCretins | October 30, 20:59 CET

Well, I have to say, during Season 6 I had a sinking feeling the whole time that Willow was being set up for the kill. Didn't happen, for which I'm eternally grateful, but if that's the way the story goes... there's really a limited number of characters that would rate that kind of emotional impact. (Of course, FDW isn't actually a separate character, so, technically, that would still be killing Willow. Hypothesis: It's crossed my mind that maybe her immortality was accidental, in which case, she might have brought Buffy into the future for the express purpose of killing her.

Well, okay, probably not...

Rowan Hawthorn | October 30, 21:22 CET

Okay, kill Willow, and I'm outta there, which I sort of am anyway, but really. Y'know, Joss might've said that he would not kill WIllow, but he also said much the same about Tara, and look how well that worked out. If Willow is a point of identification for readers, removing her runs real risk of losing said readers. Less anyone start the "It's Joss' story to tell and I'll follow him wherever he goes," that might be true for people here but not as assured for people there. Consider: CSI lost Jorja Fax as Sara Sidle, Gary Dourdan as Warrick Brown and is set to lose Billy Petersen as Gil Grissom. Anyone who was into GSR is long gone now, and hanging only to see if when GG leaves, it is with Sara; once over, they are lost forever. Lose Willow, and I think you have the same problem. Of course, I do not think that, if indeed it is Willow, she is gone forever. I simply don't think Joss would get rid of that character for good. SO the real question will be, how is he intending to bring her back? Now, on the other hand if he were to kill Andrew, I think that would be for good. Xander and Dawn, not so sure. Giles could be in play as well, given what the amazon entry says. I doubt its Buffy. I guess the odds are:
Willow: even
Andrew 10:1
Giles: 15:1
Xander 20:1
Dawn 20:1
Fray 40:1
Buffy 50:1

Dana5140 | October 30, 22:01 CET

I guess it's Future Dark Willow. Please don't let this series turn into Season 3 of Heroes...

Enisy | October 30, 22:03 CET

This spoiler just pisses me off. It was nearly impossible to avoid this and considering we still have nearly a month more to wait for #19 to be released, I decided to bite the bullet and read this thread.

As for the term "major", who's responsible for writing this product description? Maybe they're as inept at describing the importance of the character as Amazon was when they spoiled the conclusion of this unreleased issue. *extremely mocking and sarcastic slow clap* Way to go guys.

Still, I'm not reading too much into this. Maybe the clue is on-target and if so, then Future Darkish Willow gets my vote. Maybe it's not... All I can say is this "major" death spoiler partnered with the issue delay isn't helping my enthusiasm for the series. I'm really feeling the love for IDW and Lynch's After the Fall pieces right now. Pssst, Spike: AtF... I <3 you.

Emmie | October 30, 22:16 CET

Maybe Tara's gonna come back just to get killed off again lol

The Alpha Gamer | October 30, 22:17 CET

IDW have done the exact same thing Dark Horse have done in regards to the Amazon.ca listing of After The Fall volume 4. Both companies kinda guilty of spoiling the plot.

But this is quite a regular occurrence in the comic book industry. Listing for trades will come out on Amazon whilst the current plot arc is still running.

Simon | October 30, 22:27 CET

Oh, Simon. I don't mean regarding them not spoiling. Just that the releases of Angel: After the Fall #13 and Spike: After the Fall #4 have kept me sane and incredibly entertained during the frustrating wait for Buffy #19. A wait now exacerbated by this major spoilage. As a relative noob to the comics industry, I can understand that these things happen in other series' quite regularly. But I was enjoying their absence in Buffy season 8 til this point.

Emmie | October 30, 22:58 CET

Well it wouldn't be the Buffy fandom if we didn't have major spoilage for upcoming plots. I adore spoilers but even I thought it got extremely silly back in the days of Buffy season 7 and Angel season 5 when we could get a hold of transcripts of episodes that wouldn't air for months.

Simon | October 30, 23:04 CET

It's a whole new problem I didn't have to deal with during the airing of the shows since my online fandom activity didn't start until recently. I got to remain gloriously unspoiled for every episode of Buffy and Angel. I still haven't wrapped my head around whether I should try to avoid these spoilers or just go with it. It's hard to be a part of the discussion when you're trying to not step on spoiler landmines with your eyes closed.

Emmie | October 30, 23:10 CET

Oh, I forgot to add:

Kennedy: 40:1
Satsu: 50:1 (longshot)

Won't be Tara: no odds

Dana5140 | October 31, 00:29 CET

Emmie,

I'm with you, when Dollhouse comes out in the states, I'm quitting reading this (or at least the frontpage) till the season has gone out in the UK too (or can be bought off iTunes).

Sparticus | October 31, 12:13 CET

So, if present Willow will be the victim, we really need a Bad Wolf to ressurect her. Then she'll be immortal and could meet Fray.
Or at least, she should be touched by the Pie Maker and with only Andrew at her side after the 60 seconds.

Brasilian Chaos Man | October 31, 13:13 CET

The way I'd like to see it go:

Dark Willow of the future resents the way Buffy handled things back in the 21st century, including bringing about the end of magics and interfering with Willow's secretive plan to bring Tara back (i.e. through the snake lady). Dark Willow still loves Buffy, of course, but she also wants to destroy Buffy to punish her for what she's done, as her actions led directly to Fray's dystopian future.

Dark Willow and Buffy fight as they must. Buffy wins, but in the process, Dark Willow dies at Buffy's hand. Buffy is left on the verge of complete mental breakdown, the likes we've never seen before. Not catatonic, as we saw in Season 5. Just broken. Broken to the core. She's willfully killed her best friend.

Buffy recovers (sort of). She tells Fray she's going to "fix it" and "do it right" this time. She tells Fray this reality will change inalterably, and she offers to bring Fray back with her. Fray agrees, and both return to the 21st century.

Buffy confronts Willow regarding Willow's secret. Instead of stopping her, as she did before, Buffy decides to help. Deeper down the rabbit hole it goes, with no guarantee things will turn out any better.

But at least Tara would eventually come back (yea!)

Joss will of course, be Joss, and come up with his own story, and it probably won't look like this at all.

Now if Joss kills off present day Willow, then I'd agree with Dana5140. There wouldn't be much left for me, so I'd probably stop reading. Tara was my favorite character, but then, Willow was my next favorite. They went hand in hand, so to speak. If they're both gone, then I'm likely gone too.

quantumac | October 31, 22:10 CET

Now, I may be an idiot...wait, strike that; I am an idiot. But I thought that Willow's spell in Chosen only affected potential slayers currently living. So, we'd have slayer fetuses and slayer grannies, but as soon as this generation died off it would revert back to the whole "Chosen ONE" thing again. There doesn't seem to be a discrepency between Buffy's era and Fray's era.

So it would really suck if Joss pulls a Star Trek and undoes the Fray timeline when he really doesn't need to. It's not that I don't like alternate universe stories. It's just I thought the "end of magic" and "final battle" hinted at in Fray was a bold, logical and kickass ending to the Buffy/Angel[/Ripper?:)] era of the Buffyverse.

With the "end of magic" being brought up in Season Eight (and After the Fall looking like it just might be the epic wrap-up to the Wolfram & Hart Apocalypse storyline that the entire series was headed towards since "To Shanshu in LA") I was kind of looking foward to the countdown to the end. Not that I want Buffy and Angel to end anytime soon. I just thought it was really ballsy, awesome, and typical of Joss to have a definite ending in mind for it all.

JesusSavedIn01 | November 01, 21:57 CET