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November 04 2008

"I've definitely got some ideas that are effin' strange". Joss speaks to Vice Magazine about Wonder Woman, Dollhouse, Dr. Horrible, Buffy season 8 and more.

Why must Joss like Linkin Park? :'(



:P
There’s no judging in the Dollhouse.
There's a lot I liked about this interview, but I'm especially fond of this:

Q: What do you think makes an ideal villain?

Joss: Perspective. An ideal villain is partially right.

Oh, yeah. "Witches can be right, giants can be good."

And that's a good photo of our Jossir.
Linkin Park is excellent. Nothing gets me pumped like that One Step Closer to the Edge song.

Interesting interview, strange tone to it, and really bizarre comments on its page. What's that about?
Holy f-bomb, Batman!
argh, I love The Wire, but no way is it superior to Buffy! Do not even mention The Sopranos.

Other than that, I still heart Joss. He is effin' awesomesauce, and almost as sexay-brainy as Tina Fey.

It’s not them as actors, it’s your strength as a writer. I look at photos of Eliza and go, “Oh, that’s Faith.”

This is most resonant for me, because every time I see SMG, I see Buffy. This is not usually a problem for me; I can differentiate between actor and character perfectly well, and usually when I love an actor's portrayal of a character, every time I see them afterwards, I get a happy rush and think of them by their real name. Like, I get all happy whenever I see Kristen Bell -- I never think: Oh, Veronica Mars! SMG, however, is so utterly entwined as Buffy in my psyche that I can't stand watching the original Buffy movie (Kristy Swanson =/= Buffy) and when I saw the trailer for The Grudge, my lizard brain was all: why is Buffy running away and freaked out by supernatural forces? She should be kicking its ASS.
Interesting interview and a great photo, Joss looking uncharacteristically pensive (or just very tired) ;-)
I'd give a lot to know what he's wearing on his wrist, because it looks like something very Buddhist, which doesn't fit. (Although you can actually be an atheist and still subscribe to Buddhist philosophy).
That Dollhouse set is like one big Zen poem, though. It may well be the only institution I've ever wanted to live in.

That open structure - beautiful lines, and all that lovely wood. (Oh, shut up.) Ordinarily I'm all about the English & American antiques, but I could convert to that open design in a heartbeat.

Maybe, though, it's the massage tables and all those fluffy towels.
Good interview. Just don't read the comments afterwards.
kishi | November 04, 09:41 CET

I never do, it's bad for the blood pressure. :) <

QuoterGal, I totally agree about the main Dollhouse set, it's just gorgeous. I don't know whether or not any of the same set design people that worked on Joss's other shows are involved, but I've always been impressed by the look of his sets. So far removed from the generic look of so much series TV.
needs to make joss a mixed tape.
Oh dead God. My faith in Joss has been shattered by these shocking recent revelations about his taste in music. I need a new religion.
Seriously, though, I'm quite surprised that he likes metal. Although I wonder whether by metal he means bands like Linkin Park ....
It's fun to find out that Joss Whedon likes one of my favourite bands. Minutes to Midnight is their best album so far.
Today's interview was brought to you by the letters f-u-c-k and the number 5 ;).

Pretty decent interview, some nice questions and (obviously ;) answers. All the stuff on villains was interesting, his "partially right" point is what makes, for instance, Lex Luthor the hopelessly warped protector of humanity more interesting than Lex Luthor the bonkers scientist IMO (I actually see slight shadows of that interesting Lex in "season 8"s Twilight).

And the "perspective" comment makes me think of Billy and Penny from Dr H - 'My Eyes' is all about their different perspectives after all.
Nothing wrong with Linkin Park. Might never make my top ten bands of all time but they put out some seriously good music.

Joss has mentioned a few bands here that led me to believe that his taste in music was as good as his writing ability. Evanescence, Tenacious D, now Linkin Park and a metal fan in general. Nice to know that my favourite television show creator rocks out. Good for the soul.

Honestly, if he had said that he was currently listening to Celine Dion or Westlife, all my faith in what is good and just in this world may have died! ;)
I don't really like the majority of songs used in BtVS, including the theme tune. (Though I very much like the dark, trip hoppy sounds used in early episodes of Angel!) Can't stand Evanescence, Tenacious D or Linkin Park. But that's ok, it's American music for American shows, it's probably meant to appeal to college kids and teenagers and it doesn't have to take into account this viewer isn't American, in college, or a teenager. I'm sure Buffy would have been very strange viewing if the source music was all chansons, Eurotrash and Britpop.
Evanescence too! How can this be the same man who's into The Beatles and Springsteen and writes great music himself?

But, seriously, cool interview. I want to see more of these effing strange ideas of his
Don't know if it's just about Americans, college kids or teens, Caroline. I'm none of the above and a big fan of all three bands mentioned, as well as a lot of the music used on Buffy (although not all, by any means). In fact most of the people I know who are into the same music and television as I am are from the UK, late 20s/early 30s and therefore many years passed college life.

Personally I'm just a big rock fan in all it's various shapes and forms. Grunge and metal are probably my favourite rock genres (growing up in the early 90s saw to that) but basically as long as it's rock, I'll give it a listen.

That said, a little more Oasis, Blur or Suede on Buffy wouldn't have hurt. ;)
Let Down, it's really easy to be a big Evanescence fan and still love The Beatles and Springsteen. I manage it every day! ;)
Yeah, Highlander, I absolutely hated the 90's in terms of music (grunge, dance), and it wasn't until Massive Attack and the emergence of trip hop at the end of the decade that things seemed to turn in my favour. I tend like rock and guitarmusic only if it's 'arty': Roxy Music, Bowie and bands that list those as influences.
You know, oddly enough, I liked the music on Buffy, thought it fit the setting very well. But almost none of it was anything I would have normally touched with a ten-foot pole (or a twelve-foot Hungarian, for that matter...)
... and Britpop.

"Wonderwall" might've really added to the end of 'Wrecked'. Especially the Mike Flowers Pops version ;).

In general, since a lot of the Buffy bands were kind of guitary, kind of rocky pop ish they were at least in the area of what I like, if maybe aimed slightly younger and a bit lighter. That said, the two big discoveries for me weren't really that rocky pop, they were solo singer/songwriters (Aimee Mann and Sarah Mclachlan).
Caroline the 90s weren't so bad. Massive Attack were really good but the Brits also produced Radiohead and Pulp ie. the awesome and inventive equivalents of tedious bands like Oasis and Blur (sorry Highlander, I think we're destined to disagree on everything to do with music)

Buffy had some pretty great music on it that I probably never would have listened to otherwise. There's a really cool song being performed in the dancing with Xander scene in 'When She Was Bad'. And the show did use some really good Sarah McLachlan songs (though some of her other stuff can be pretty tacky)
Let Down, I absolute adore Pulp and like Radiohead (more so live than on CD). It was the dominance of grunge, dance and drugs culture that totally put me off the decade. As well as stupid laddism, i.e. Oasis. I don't like cock rock.
Like we say her: Toca Raul! The Lyrics



were inspirated By Elvis.
Well, I've read the music thread on .org, and it's very clear that people who like the same TV shows don't necessarily like the same music. :)
I got irritated by the rise of grunge as a load of me-toos, as happens with any wave of music. I was listening to Green River and MotherLoveBone so I was into Pearl Jam when they first appeared and was listening to Nirvana and Mudhoney (friend of a friend living out there would trade tapes of local bands with us), but yeah it all got out of hand as these things do. I'm not a fan of Linkin Park really, though I do enjoy early Evanescence and love the Beatles, so mark me in the "its totally possible" column. Currently loving Jonathan Coulton, Regina Spektor, Bionic Jive, anything Paul Robb does (speaking of trip hop or as Paul might say "downbeat practitioners"), New Model Army, Mike Doughty, Elvis Costello, Rachael Yamagata, Stuart Davis, Brenda Weiler... as you can see from last.fm, where there is a Whedonesque group. See? You knew I could turn this into a plug for more ways to connect with the big W.

ETA - This week's most popular artists in the Whedonesque Last.FM group:

The Beatles
Radiohead
Death Cab for Cutie
Muse
Nine Inch Nails
Snow Patrol
The Killers
The Smashing Pumpkins
Nirvana
David Bowie

(more W-esque charts here)
I loved the music on Buffy. I think whoever chose it was a freaking genius. I can't tell you how many CDs I bought after discovering bands I liked on Buffy.

But I loved 90s music. I though grunge and Nirvana saved music from the overproduced crap that was being shoved down our throats at the time.

I agree that it's hard to see Buffy running away from the villain. I saw the Scooby doo movies, and bits of the Grudge.
I haven't spent too much time thinking about it but I LOATHED seeing SMG in Harvard man. I mean as much as SMG found some of Season six degrading to Buffy, I found Harvard Man degrading to Buffy. Probably that film with The Rock that she did if I had seen it would have affected me the same way. Porn star Buffy? I don't want to see it.
Southland Tales was a difficult film, but watched alng with reading the graphic novels it was clear that it was Richard Kelly reaching for the stars. Love it or hate it, the man is an artist. Plus its not "Porn star Buffy", its Sarah Michelle Gellar, awesome actress playing a part that subverts expectations. your mileage may vary :)

The problem, as always (back on the music subject), is that a lot of overproduced also-ran crap follows anything innovative. Ugh...
Let Down, music wouldn't be music if it didn't lead to disagreements in personal taste. I think if I've learned anything in all the years I've been a devoted rock fan it's that expecting anyone to agree with you 100% (hell, even 10%) is a waste of time and energy. Besides, what would be the fun in always agreeing on everything? ;)

I think I was the perfect age for grunge to grab me. I was 16/17-ish when it really hit the UK and did happen to be in college at the time. I was pretty much the target audience. Pearl Jam first, quickly followed by the likes of Soundgarden, Alice in Chains, Nirvana and the rest. Certainly wasn't a phase though because I still count them among my favourite bands to this day, Pearl Jam especially.

Liked Pulp, although still see them as closer to a pop act than rock. Radiohead love extends to The Bends, and that's about it. Not like anything from them at all for the last two or three albums.

Very cool to see the Mother Love Bone mention, zeitgeist. Can't remember the last time anyone (other than me) brought them up in conversation. :)

Sarah McLachlan was a favourite of mine from back when I used to watch Due South so although BtVS didn't introduce me to her, it was nice to hear the song used on the show.

"But I loved 90s music. I though grunge and Nirvana saved music from the overproduced crap that was being shoved down our throats at the time."

Xane, could not agree more!
... I do have a soft spot for Alice in Chains, weirdly enough.
And now I totally don't have to feel ashamed I listen to Linkin Park. Roxette on the other hand...
After the intro I was a bit worried, but that was a great interview. As another huge rock and metal fan, it's pretty cool to learn that Joss is to. Metal is a bit of a love it or hate it genre and is often looked down upon by the mainstream (not unlike sci-fi and fantasy). So, while it's not surprising that there's other rock and metal fans here, I didn't have Joss down as one, probably because of the music he's written and his love of musicals. Guess he must be looking forward to seeing Repo! The Genetic Opera :).
Yeah, the intro was a bit, um, interesting.

And now I totally don't have to feel ashamed I listen to Linkin Park.


Let's not get carried away ;). Kidding!
We all have our different taste in music, films, and pasta. Still, I think we all agree that Joss' effin' ideas are pretty fricken brilliant in story and character.
He's getting weirder over time? Excellent, excellent.
I mean as much as SMG found some of Season six degrading to Buffy, I found Harvard Man degrading to Buffy.


I must admit I don’t see that the two things equate, but I am a fan of James Toback and I think ‘Harvard Man’ might be the best film Gellar has made to date. The sex in it (two relatively short scenes) is just that, a young woman who enjoys having sex.

But, as Madhatter points out, we all have different tastes.

As for music in the Nineties – Guided By Voices, Red House Painters, Pavement and Sebadoh made it a great decade for me.
Oh Joss, still as awesome as ever. Can't wait for Dollhouse! Squee!

BTW, I don't think the comics are more sexualized than the show.
I cast my ballot for Linkin Park. I like the music, and I love their enthusiasm. Every performance I've seen of theirs (just on TV, not in person), they seem to genuinely be having a blast with the music and with their fans.

And I agree with the interviewer that the comic is more sexualized than even S6.
A person's taste is their taste. So if two things a person likes don't seem to go together for you, then it isn't their blind spot. Heck, BtVS is my fvaorite show ever and my favorite singers are the Statler Brothers.

As for the topic of the thread ie. the interview itself, well, it's definitely Joss's thought process as visible as ever.
Full fathom five thy memory lies
Of his dreams thy life is made
He sees himself through hired eyes
For just one day, then all doth fade.

Yet both suffer a sea change
Into something effin strange.

Who is that? Who rings your knell?
Hark, you hear it? Ding-dong, bell!

ETA Sung to the tune of Ariel's song from The Tempest.

[ edited by Pointy on 2008-11-05 04:46 ]
Pointy, that was wonderful.
Thank you!
Can't comprehend someone not liking Linkin park. Seriously.
Thank you, Madhatter! Shakespeare did the heavy lifting. Him and that purple guy.

[ edited by Pointy on 2008-11-04 19:42 ]
I saw Nirvana back in '92. Teenage Fanclub and The Breeders were supporting. It was a legendary gig.
Nice, Pointy.

@Caroline - I like Alice in Chains, myself. "Down in a Hole" has turned out to be one of my favorite songs.

I always view other folks' musical tastes (and more) much like I do their reading choices - like this:

"In literature as in love, we are astonished at what is chosen by others." - André Maurois

OK, gotta go to the ote-vay thingy. Pray for me, if that's something you do. Cross fingers for me, if not.
Hey now, True Blood has gotten quite kick-ass, and slamming Six Feet Under will get you nowhere with me. Weird interview.

Anyway, about music...I like a lot of different things, though Linkin Park is not one of them. Perhaps it will make you understand my tastes better if I say that I think right now, the White Stripes are the best rock band in the world. (And they're only two people!)

I love rock, blues, rap, and some punk (mostly post-punk; not a big Sex Pistols fan). The Beatles, Radiohead, the Doors, the Byrds, Muddy Waters, Howlin' Wolf, Eminem, Public Enemy, the Notorious B.I.G., the Ramones, Wire, the Clash, etc.
OK, gotta go to the ote-vay thingy. Pray for me, if that's something you do. Cross fingers for me, if not.

Consider them crossed. That said, you do realise you don't have to toss a coin QG ? Pretty sure you can just pick the one you want.
Simon, you just made me incredibly jealous. Would have loved to see that gig. Would have loved to see any Nirvana gig but sadly never got the opportunity.

QuoterGal, Down In A Hole is one of my favourite Alice in Chains songs as well, along with Nutshell and Rooster. Their MTV Unplugged was one of the best shows of that series too.

And, UnpluggedCrazy, very nice choices, especially The Ramones. Wouldn't say that I think the White Stripes are the best rock band in the world (that changes for me every day anyway) but they are beyond brilliant.
Wow, Vice got an interview with Joss Whedon, that's pretty crazy. The magazine's original office used to be a couple of blocks from my High School in Montreal, and we used to drop by there for free magazines. The tone of the intro is pretty much standard for the magazine. They used to publish mainly CD reviews and kind of "controversial for the sake of being controversial" articles. Usually lots of pictures of women randomly flashing cameras with comments as well.

Good interview though, just kind of random.
I saw Nirvana back in '92. Teenage Fanclub and The Breeders were supporting. It was a legendary gig.


Nice, I saw them with Mudhoney (nice) and The Wipers (umm... I could clearly see the pitch correction on them when I walked back to peek at the soundboard gadgetry being used). Awesome gig with a fairly small crowd and I was really close up.
"The Man in the Box" always snapped my strings for some odd reason. 'Course, played at 120dB. I know, there's something seriously wrong with me ;)
Oh, crap, Saje. I didn't actually understand you could deliberately choose who you were gonna vote for, so I rolled my I Ching, did a tarot spread, read the bones and sacrificed a goat.

Well, it wasn't a goat so much as it was a paper towel, but I'm sure the gods were appeased. Anyway, all the portents indicated I should vote for Obama, so I did. The lines were not long, and I wasn't assaulted by any "Yes on 8" protesters - well, it would have been very surprising if they even ventured into my neighborhood - so your finger crossing must have worked.
Lots of good music mentioned here. My favorite band, though, has to be the Dave Matthews Band (even if the last few, very important, seconds are cut off in that clip).

And the Beatles, of course. They will always rock.
re: Alice In Chains, "No Excuses" is my personal favorite. The drums in that song are just ridiculous.

In '96 I was at a Neurotic Outsiders show, wearing an AIC t-shirt. Turns out 3/4 of the band was at the show (minus Layne Staley), hanging out with the former G'NR guys in NO. I got my t-shirt signed by them and one of Matt Sorum's drum heads signed by Sorum and Sean Kinney. "It was the best day ever."

[ edited by jam2 on 2008-11-04 22:04 ]
SHEY: Haven't read all the comments, so maybe someone's already answered, but Stuart Blatt is the Production Designer on "Dollhouse" and was also on "Angel," so yes, same person designed the set as one of Joss' previous shows!

I have to say I've always noticed the sets as particularly incredible myself. The shows wouldn't be the as good without them. I'm particularly upset to have missed out on seeing Serenity in person, as well as Season 5 Wolfram & Hart and the Hyperion Hotel. But the Dollhouse? Shoot, Stuart Blatt can design my penthouse anytime!
JMaloney-
I need to jump in and tell you that I meet Dave Matthews on the way to Serenity LA last year. We were both waiting for a flight to Burbank & we shared some nice conversations about TV shows (including Firefly) the episode of House he appeared on & music. He was very pleasant & very easy to talk to just like the BDHs.

For similar reason which Hollywood Jane espressed,I didn't ask for a photo or autograph because I didn't want to spoil the moment. I read too much about inappropriate fan behavoir and I just couldn't get the nerve to ask...fearing I would end up saying something stuiped once I turned all "fangirly".

Anyhoo I love Dave Matthews and I also love Mother Love Bone. I saw Perl Jam for $5.00 a long time ago! Can't believe how much concert tickets have gone up over the years!
One more thing....
My only regret is hanging up on BrewBunny once Dave started asking me questions about our flight....
Sorry BrewBunny!
It's a nice looking set alright but I don't think i'd like to live there - the space and minimalism are nice but (entirely appropriately) there's a generic feel to it. Be interesting to see if they're gonna play with the house itself as a figurative brain (e.g. different rooms for different brain regions).

... so your finger crossing must have worked.

We may just have proven magic. OK, who wants to act as a control and vote while i'm not crossing my fingers ? Fair warning, there's some danger of assault and/or voting for a wrong 'un.
I need to jump in and tell you that I meet Dave Matthews on the way to Serenity LA last year. We were both waiting for a flight to Burbank & we shared some nice conversations about TV shows (including Firefly) the episode of House he appeared on & music. He was very pleasant & very easy to talk to just like the BDHs.

Duuuuuuude. Officially jealous here.

Closest I ever got to Dave Matthews was sitting waaaay far back in Giants Stadium at one of their concerts in '99.
One of the best concerts I have ever been too was a DMB show in NY. My moms got me and a friend tickets. 7th row, center. Awesome.
Second best was actually Rush, and I was way in the back. Odd. But true.
BTW, what's this thread about again? ;)
Saje,

Were you crossing your fingers at 7:20 EST? Because if you weren't, then I sadly must tell you that the magical voting crossies is a hoax. Much like the Cottingley Fairies...

...unless your failure to cross your fingers means I didn't vote for who I *thought* I voted for...oh dear.
Rush were the first rock band I saw in concert back in the mid 70s...
My best ever gig was Dead Can Dance at the Danforth Music Hall in Toronto around 1990.

Edit to fix typos

[ edited by redfern on 2008-11-04 23:52 ]
There's a really cool song being performed in the dancing with Xander scene in 'When She Was Bad'.

Sugar Water by Cibo Matto.

Cibo Matto can clog dance?!?!

Ah Willow and her nerdy ways. :-)
I once saw a double bill of Night Ranger and Starship at the RPI Fieldhouse. Night Ranger come onstage by crawling up out of a giant genie lamp.
NYPinTA-
I saw DMB Upstate NY in 2001! Where you there?
Yikes!- I read 'Night Ranger' and I was in Jr High again!!

what was this thread about?
Bruce Springsteen.
Last American show of the Born in the USA tour.
My college radio station gave away free tix. Without first getting the tickets in hand. Mistake. Promoter = liar.
I went with the GM to the Syracuse Carrier Dome for moral support.
We asked the ticket booth guy. (White suit, dark glasses--at night.)
No tickets on hold for our radio station. As the promoter had promised, but not delivered.
I asked, Can we buy tickets for our contest winners?
No. But I'll sell you two guys tickets.
Can we buy two tickets and put them on hold, so two of our contest winners can get to see the show?
I'll give you two tickets for free, he said.
Wonderful. Can we stay here and wait for the first two winners to show up, so we can give them the tickets.
Come with me, said the man in white with the dark shades, and took us behind the ticket booth where no one could see. Anyone who comes to this ticket booth and gives the name of your radio station, he said, will get tickets. Free. And here are two tickets for you.
So we go into the Carrier Dome with our tickets, show them to the ushers, and they gesture with their arms toward the stage. We get closer to the stage, pass more ushers, and they keep pointing us closer and closer to the stage. It's a big old dome. It takes a long time to get closer to the stage.
And this is the Last American Show of the Born in the USA tour when Bruuuuuce was hotter than the sun and we had given away tickets we didn't have. And the ushers kept sending us closer and closer to the stage until we wound up in:
1. The second row of the
2. The second section on the
3. Floor of the Carrier Dome in front of the
4. Stage.
Holy fucking crap. I've never seen a show as good as the one I saw for free because my college radio station totally screwed up. Highlight: Electric version of Johnny 99 off the Nebraska album, though Atlantic City gave it a run.
Seven. Encores. Seven.
"Bruce takes care of you." That's what the man in white said.
Don't tell me Born in the USA is not a great album.
spacegirls200, Close. 2003. The year Mars was closest to Earth. Everyone was looking at it as we were leaving. Great show. And a damn good night too. (I even got out of the parking lot without having to wait! At SPAC, that's a huge win.)

[ edited by NYPinTA on 2008-11-05 02:38 ]
Does anyone know how to pronounce Cibo Matto?

And Bruce Springsteen during the Born to Run years was one of the best best concerts I'd ever seen. Three and a half hours of maniacal performance!

Springsteen during the just got divorced from a model years was one of the worst concerts I'd ever been to. What a disappointment.

The other truly great concerts I'd been to, and I've been to a lot, was Neil Young. And I don't even like Neil Young.
I saw Bruce Springsteen my first month of college in 1973 - went up the hill from my dinky little college Hartwick to Oneonta State to see this guy I'd never heard of.

Needless to say, he was a powerhouse - amazing - sang for hours and never let up, and we all went out the next day and bought" Greetings from Asbury Park."

I was 18 then and I'm now 53, and he still kicks ass.

My first concert was the Limelighters, I was 9 or so, and I had every word they sang memorized.
Cibo Matto is pronounced like "Chee-bow Mah-toe". Did that help? :)
Sean Lennon was a member of Cibo Matto at some point. There's my nerdish Beatles tidbit for ya.

I just can't get into Springsteen. I loved Nebraska, but I have really not enjoyed the several albums of his I've heard where he employs the E Street Band (and I've heard almost all of the ones considered classic). I don't know, if he's acoustic and by himself, I don't mind, but otherwise? Not my cuppa.
Thanks Emmie, I've been saying it wrong.
Sean Lennon was a member of Cibo Matto at some point. There's my nerdish Beatles tidbit for ya.



Sean Lennon is with them in their appearance in ‘When She Was Bad’.

Best gig I’ve ever been to would have to be Cracker at the Borderline in London, supported by Neal Casal, just a few years ago. The live performance that changed my life was seeing the Beach Boys at the Great Western Pop Festival in Lincoln in 1972.
Someone mentioned GNR and so I have the nerve to say that they're one of my favorite bands ever. On the other hand, I also love most of the grunge from the same period (Down in a Hole, definitely the ultimate Alice in Chains).
As well as virtually all the music on BtS, which introduced me to stuff I'd never heard before (Biff Naked, Heather Nova, Amee Mann). But then I like pretty much everything that's been mentioned on this thread, with the exception of Linkin Park and (sorry Caroline) Eurotrash & Britpop. Except I love Oasis, if you're throwing them in that category. But can't stand Radiohead (pretentious, boring Coldplay wannabe's) .... great big IMO, obviously.

Music discussion fun. :)
Shey, I'm not sure how Radiohead can be Coldplay wannabes when their fame came at the same time Coldplay were formed.

I love the Buffy theme tune but I was largely indifferent to the rest of the music on the show (which worked well). Only Cibo Matto's appearance made me seek out more by them. I was already an Aimee Mann fan and was very excited by her appearance and one line of dialogue.
Except I love Oasis, if you're throwing them in that category. But can't stand Radiohead (pretentious, boring Coldplay wannabe's) .... great big IMO, obviously."

Shey, that would be a "great big IMO", as well. ;)

Obviously, Radiohead were around a long time before Coldplay but I kinda see where Shey is coming from. I think Radiohead have struggled to be what Coldplay became naturally, and this is coming from someone who isn't especially a Coldplay fan. I just never really got why Radiohead were given such a high status in the music world when a lot of what they have done has been average at best. Albums of absolute brilliance but balanced by albums that I wouldn't listen to again if you paid me. Again, with that great big IMO added.

To be fair, that's probably true for most bands. Even my personal rock gods, Pearl Jam, have put out a couple of albums that didn't live up to their usual standard. Just seems to me like Radiohead's lesser albums outweigh their supposed brilliance. But as with all things music related, YMMV.
Hmm, i'm not sure "Albums of absolute brilliance but balanced by albums that I wouldn't listen to again if you paid me." is the same as "average" except mathematically ;).

'The Bends' is quite a bit better than anything Coldplay's done IMO but i'd agree Coldplay is probably more consistent at doing what they do (and I mean that in the good and bad way i.e. I find them pleasant enough to listen to but quite samey).
I have my own personal style of rock-based maths that only makes sense if you happen to be me. ;)

Yeah, I'd say that The Bends as an album is probably better than anything Coldplay have done. In fact it's the only Radiohead cd that I've ever bought for myself, whereas I've never purchased a Coldplay cd even though I would imagine I like a lot more of their individual songs than I do of Radiohead's, in general.

All that said, Snow Patrol blow both bands out of the water. If Radiohead truly are Coldplay wannabes then I'd also have to say that Snow Patrol are the band that Coldplay could only dream of becoming.
Yep, we all disagree. :)

I love Radiohead- "Kid A," "OK Computer," &"The Bends" best. I've bought & listen to them all except "Pablo Honey."
And I don't like Coldplay at all.
I never did like grunge or rap in the 90's. My taste in music was and still is in hardcore punk, speed/thrash/death metal, with a little industrial mixed in.
QuoterGal: Oh ye gods and little fishes, we're (presumably) the same age.
"Obviously, Radiohead were around a long time before Coldplay but I kinda see where Shey is coming from. I think Radiohead have struggled to be what Coldplay became naturally, and this is coming from someone who isn't especially a Coldplay fan."

Nah. Even Chris Martin from Coldplay has described Coldplay as puppies yapping at Radiohead's feet.

"'The Bends' is quite a bit better than anything Coldplay's done IMO but i'd agree Coldplay is probably more consistent at doing what they do (and I mean that in the good and bad way i.e. I find them pleasant enough to listen to but quite samey)."

What is good about consistently doing the same thing? Radiohead hasn't not done the same thing from any inability to be consistent but because they deliberatlely tried to radically change their sound. They went from the kick-arse guitar rock of the Bends to the bizarre jazz-electronica-rock fusion of Kid A in the course of 3 albums. Which in itself is a greater achievement that Coldplay's entire career
OK Computer, In Rainbows, and The Bends are better than anything that Coldplay has ever done. Those are my two cents, hard at work. ;-)

alien lanes, thanks for confirming that Sean was with them. I've been curious ever since I learned about him being a member, but haven't watched "When She Was Bad" since I found out.

Oh, and I can't believe I didn't mention Dylan. Epic fail.
I agree with you UnpluggedCrazy but I'd add that Kid A, Amnesiac and Hail to the Thief are also better than anything Coldplay has ever done.

Can anyone recommend me a Cibo Matto album?
I do wonder why, in order to build one lot up, we have to tear the other lot down. Human nature or something, I suppose. I love The Bends, not so enthusiastic about Radiohead's following albums, but I admire their spirit of reinvention. I also love A Rush of Blood to the Head, which has a vein of melancholic beauty running through it that Coldplay haven't quite, IMO, managed to replicate before or since.

Grunge, Nirvana aside, leaves me pretty cold, and I love me some Britpop. And the music of BtVS mostly worked astoundingly well in its place, but I wouldn't listen to 90% of it outside of the show.

And I agree with alien lanes, Harvard Man is SMG's best movie to date. OK, think I've mostly caught up with the voting. :-)
'Clocks' is a pretty decent pop song I reckon.

What is good about consistently doing the same thing?

Err, were you here for the part of my comment where I say I mean it in the "good and bad way" and think they're "samey" ? ;)

(and strictly I don't say they consistently do the same thing, I say they consistently do what they do - I might think "what they do" is produce great catchy pop tunes for instance)
What is good about consistently doing the same thing?


Ah the major criticism levelled at our Joss.
"Err, were you here for the part of my comment where I say I mean it in the "good and bad way" and think they're "samey" ? ;)"

Well, you said you meant it in a good and bad way. The bad you mentioned was that their music is samey (and I agree) but I was curious as to what the good thing about consistently doing the same thing is. That's why I asked :)

And, yeah, I suppose it's possible to interpret your comment to mean they're consistently producing great music but from the context it seemed (and seems) to me that that's not what you meant given that your comment wa explaining what was bad about this consistency and given that you followed it up with 'ie I find them ... quite samey'

Anyway, when it comes to pure aesthetic pleasure there's no proving anyone right or wrong. I can't prove that Coldplay is kind of bland and not very original (and besides I do enjoy some of their stuff). Although as to sameiness I think it can be objectively shown that Coldplay's catalogue is much the same ie. looking at tempo, instrumentation, chord progressions etc.
you followed it up with 'ie I find them ... quite samey'

Heh, there's a world within those ellipses ;). You missed off "pleasant enough to listen to" which is precisely why consistency can be a good thing (particularly when compared to Radiohead who, for good or ill, constantly change what they do) i.e. if you like one song and all their songs are similar then you should like all their songs, right ? That's never gonna make a great album (which is why I personally wouldn't swap one 'The Bends' for all of Coldplay's music) BUT it's a good recipe for lots of OK albums.

I guess I can see how my comment might be ambiguous but it makes more sense when you bear in mind that the context was in response to Highlander who commented on Radiohead's albums varying widely in their appeal for him (IMO because they're inconsistent - in both the good and bad way ;).

(and quite right, there's no "proving" subjective tastes wrong, i've defended that position to the hilt in the past)
Just to back Saje up, he's pretty much nailed the reason why I've only got the one Radiohead album. The band are very much inconsistent in what they put out and, so far anyway, The Bends was the only album that worked for my personal taste. Coldplay, in comparison, tend to stick to the type of material that made them what they are, for good or for bad. It's a safe sound that I can listen to and enjoy but has never tempted me enough to actually buy. Radiohead vary what they do enough for me to end up loving one of their albums but very much disliking the rest whereas Coldplay offer very little variety, making more music I like but very little that I could honestly say I love.

Personally I prefer bands that find a nice balance between experimentation and knowing what they do best. Pearl Jam, to use an example I know very well, have never been afraid to try something a little more experimental (No Code was a far cry from their previous three albums and Riot Act was another attempt to offer something a little different) but they also knew to stick close enough to what the fans wanted so as not to turn the established fanbase away. Their last eponymous album was in many ways an attempt to tie together the best of their previous work. The fact it resulted in such a stunning album goes to show just how well the band know themselves and their music, in all it's variety.

But, as both Let Down and Saje have already suggested, you can't prove a personal opinion wrong. Nor should you feel the need to try. It's all about what works for you and really there is no such thing as bad music.

Well, there's Cliff Richard, but every rule needs an exception. ;)
Ah gotcha. I misunderstood you because I would use 'pleasant enough to listen to' as damnation with faint praise (precisely because I find a band that constantly changes their sound much more enthralling). But I can see that it's a sort of compliment. And, yeah, Coldplay have released a string of OK albums and have some really lovely songs

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