LA Times reports on new Dollhouse production delays.
An "inside source" tells the paper about problems with the scripts for episodes six and seven.
Course for all we know, this could be someone spinning a line to help justify the new timeslot. Also for some ungodly reason, Fox have decided to make the new Dollhouse trailer inaccessible to those outside the USA.
November 07 2008
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"The network wants to tone things, and Joss is trying to figure out how to give them that and still do the show he wants to do."
Ya know? I'm so sorry that Joss and everyone have to do this in a fishbowl - however, since they are in that bowl, I hafta say what I'm able to see about the network ain't 'zackly inspiring me. I've been drinking all the "it's the new Fox" koolaid, but that's enough slack-cutting for now.
However, Joss makes a show, I'm there opening night, and wild horses - or irritating suits - won't stop me. 'Cause yes, he can.
QuoterGal | November 07, 01:19 CET
cleveland | November 07, 01:24 CET
Simon | November 07, 01:26 CET
However, I think it seems clear why his fans would devoutly wish it to be so. Doctor Horrible's Sing-Along Blog is evidence enough - if we needed more - that Joss can do just fine without a monkey on his shoulder.
Okay, I know that's not exactly the right phrase - I just wanted to use it for perversity's sake.
QuoterGal | November 07, 01:38 CET
In the same way I blame former days'institutions or powerful persons for meddling with former days's dependant artists: Like, for example, Count Esterhazy treated Joseph Haydn, meddling with his compositions, such nearly destroying him as a artist.
cleveland | November 07, 01:42 CET
It concerns me that those same concerns might be reason that they decided to move Dollhouse to Friday, instead of Bones.
[ edited by Numfar PTB on 2008-11-07 11:01 ]
Numfar PTB | November 07, 01:47 CET
gossi | November 07, 01:51 CET
I'm at gamma rays, as I said on the thread below. Kills you. Seems appropriate.
dreamlogic | November 07, 01:57 CET
Ah well, it's a matter of wait and see now I guess, beyond Yanks spreading the word as best they can and (obviously) every one of you US types with a Nielsen box watching it there's not much more to be done. Statistically it was always a long shot anyway cos a) it's a TV show (i.e. likely to be cancelled anyway) and b) it's a Whedon TV show (i.e. usually appealing to a smaller audience than major networks are happy with).
Saje | November 07, 02:21 CET
Andy Dufresne | November 07, 02:37 CET
Andy Dufresne | November 07, 02:39 CET
Selfishly, though, I hope the episode 7 delay somehow buys me time to find out how to submit myself for the 27 year old kind of naturey dude from the episode 7 casting notices that were leaked here.
It's a chicken and egg thing, though.... I'm planning on cutting my hair short and getting headshots done, but for a chance at a part on a Joss show, I'd get a headshot with my hippie hair! Unfortunately, before I have access to what calls are active, I have to get the headshot and look for an agent or pay for a membership to the casting sites.
Wow, what a self-involved post. Nevermind me, Joss! Hypnotize those executives to agree with you. I have it on good authority they like shiny objects. Maybe as a result of the memory wiping, you could just work in a shiny car that people see that drives into the background and blows up in every scene. Oh wait... budgetary concerns on that one. Maybe a Matchbox car?
Edit: After actually reading the article, episode 7 casting must be way in the past by now.
[ edited by Celluloid Novelist on 2008-11-07 13:43 ]
Celluloid Novelist | November 07, 02:48 CET
Jackal | November 07, 04:34 CET
gossi | November 07, 04:45 CET
speechlady | November 07, 04:49 CET
Joss, I love ya, dude.. leave Fox in your talented dust.
Nightshot | November 07, 05:11 CET
speechlady | November 07, 05:32 CET
[ edited by phlebotinin on 2008-11-07 15:10 ]
phlebotinin | November 07, 05:59 CET
RebelAt | November 07, 06:07 CET
FOX's handling of the moving of show to Friday night has been shameful from a PR point of view - this is not the way to announce something.
gossi | November 07, 06:18 CET
In the end, Joss will pull through. In Joss we Trust.
Or to quote Quotergal, "Yes we can."
Linnea1928 | November 07, 06:25 CET
gossi | November 07, 06:28 CET
Pretty_Hate_Machine | November 07, 06:31 CET
gossi | November 07, 06:34 CET
Hmm, you know the end of "The Boy Who Cried Wolf", right ? ;)
Saje | November 07, 06:41 CET
flugufrelsarinn | November 07, 06:51 CET
I think we all need Joss to tell us what he thinks.
Nico-Angel | November 07, 07:07 CET
[ edited by Rachelkachel on 2008-11-07 16:32 ]
Rachelkachel | November 07, 07:31 CET
Maybe that should be change to "The Boy Who Cried Fox." ;)
I'm a lot less freaked out than I was last night. The blogs I've read talking about how Fox could be worried about 24 makes sense. Making House its lead-in is a good way to protect one of the network's biggest shows. But they handled the announcement in a really ham handed way. Not being able to predict the fan's reaction or not caring really bothers me.
Eric_Curtis | November 07, 07:34 CET
It reminds me of the leadup to Serenity. It was an excellent coda to the television series, but the hardcore browncoat marketing push may have driven off a lot of casual viewers. There has to be a balance between the push towards hardcore and casual fans. Maybe you do not have to limit one or the other, but you have to make sure that a project is geared to appeal to both.
Joss could reshoot every episode between now and the time the first show airs. I don't care. I want one or two big explosions, Eliza in leather pants, and eccentric dialogue. Sold.
jubal lives | November 07, 07:34 CET
Yeah, but if he does, maybe he won't try to please Fox so much and do the show that he wants to do... even if I thought he could do both.
[ edited by Nico-Angel on 2008-11-07 16:35 ]
Nico-Angel | November 07, 07:35 CET
Everyone got to watch an awesome tv show? Oh wait, but then they get eaten by wolves. Damn.
Sunfire | November 07, 07:44 CET
I don't want to get anyone down, but initially X-Files got horrible ratings and was just barely renewed.
Via the X-Files wikipedia entry:
Then:
In todays network environment, I doubt X-Files would have lasted a full season. Back then networks gave shows a lot more time to find their audiences. Unfortunately these days, they expect shows to be successful right out of the gate or they pull the plug. :(
Matt_Fabb | November 07, 07:55 CET
... but then they get eaten by wolves.
Omelettes/eggs ;).
Saje | November 07, 07:59 CET
The Friday night timeslot paired with the production issues is a little more worrying. If FOX is trying to give "Sarah Connor Chronicles" and "Dollhouse" a chance to survive with minimal competition, that's great. That's what I'm hoping against hope for.
However, FOX is going to have to promote both shows in their Friday timeslots like crazy to get that to work. THAT is the most worrisome, because if FOX is trying to dump both shows, they'll put them on Friday nights, with little fanfare, to die.
As fans of Joss, we can't let that happen. It's simple. Don't panic about every little thing, and watch "Dollhouse" when it airs. If it sucks, that's one thing, but even a bad Joss-show episode is usually better than most stuff on TV.
Let's stay positive that he and Eliza have a show coming out at all, and watch it. Let's give it life if the network execs won't.
/rant
kasadilla | November 07, 08:29 CET
Thank you !
Nico-Angel | November 07, 08:33 CET
Let's just hope that I'm wrong, and it all turns out like sugar and rainbows when February comes.
Xyron | November 07, 08:39 CET
Greenwood | November 07, 09:03 CET
Could I panic now?
Brasilian Chaos Man | November 07, 09:05 CET
What makes *me* see red rather than the pessimism (of which I am sadly a sometimes purveyor) is the unfortunate 24-7 entertainment "news" world we live in now. Every last bump and downturn and rumor is chronicled as it happens or before it happens or even when it doesn't happen. That must suck for Mutant Enemy. In the case of Dollhouse, a "there be problems here" narrative started to take murky shape pretty early on with reports of glitches that before would have stayed under the radar. This frequent chatter of "Dollhouse has a problem" can have a rebound effect on the actual production, I imagine. That sucks. But what we have is a world in which real information is out there, along with rumor and other crap. It's not in our control, damn it. And it's human nature for Whedonesquers to react, some with positivity and some with pessimism. So it goes.
Btw, thanks for confirming the inside source, gossi, despite it being not a happy tale.
[ edited by phlebotinin on 2008-11-07 18:34 ]
phlebotinin | November 07, 09:31 CET
And if the show isn't up to Joss' standard, I would absolutely expect him to tell everyone to take a break while he figures it out. And personally, I think that's the best situation. What could be better than taking time to make it right? Mozart is the only artist I can think of that could just take pencil to paper and have it come out right the first time. And look where that got him, he's dead.
I don't trust Fox or the LA Times or any of the other "anonymous" sources...and fortunately, I don't have to trust them. I trust Joss.
(and by the way, adding to the conspiracy theories out there, the author's name, Maria Elena Fernandez, is an anagram for "alarmed fanzine ranee" which I take to mean, she's the queen of alarming fans!)
alexreager | November 07, 09:46 CET
But that's not to say that when the facts change we should just carry on regardless and the facts have changed - a timeslot previously associated with early cancellation has been given to 'Dollhouse'. In the absence of other evidence (e.g. another Fox press release outlining their cunning plan for Friday nights) I think a not entirely positive outlook is reasonable.
The point comes where you've seen it walk and heard it quack long enough that a tentative conclusion of 'duck' isn't entirely unwarranted.
ETR 're' cos of English and all its pesky rules.
[ edited by Saje on 2008-11-07 19:05 ]
Saje | November 07, 09:50 CET
Sunfire | November 07, 09:59 CET
Ricardo L. | November 07, 10:03 CET
My optimistic contribution to this discussion is my hope that Dollhouse just does incredible numbers and then we're all in the clear. My fingers are cramped with crossing. Here's hoping.
[ edited by human_loser on 2008-11-07 19:20 ]
human_loser | November 07, 10:05 CET
@theonetruebix | November 07, 10:08 CET
Concerned, pessimistic, baffled, maybe even angry, yes. Although, of all the things I am after reading the news, angry isn't one of them. Mostly baffled and confused. With a touch of, "well, crap" thrown in.
However, FOX might have a plan. (Not optimistic about that though.) But they might actually have a good reason for Friday. And even if they don't there is always a chance that Dollhouse is the little show that could and is the surprise hit of the mid season. I mean, hell, if the Red Sox can win a World Series... and the comparison is apt because although they had a history of not doing well, the actual team wasn't comprised of the same people each year. Just like although other shows traditionally go to Friday to die, this show isn't those other shows.
Or something.
Dammit, I had a point, but I think I lost it somewhere.
NYPinTA | November 07, 10:29 CET
I'm still trying to be hopeful about this news.
Emmie | November 07, 10:33 CET
@theonetruebix | November 07, 10:45 CET
gossi | November 07, 10:47 CET
But as time goes on, I become more accepting of the situation. Dollhouse fails? Okay. At least Joss has 11 other clipboards.
ETA proper grammar.
[ edited by Jobo on 2008-11-07 20:01 ]
sumogrip | November 07, 11:00 CET
Off course, ther is this huge chance that I won't like some Joss Whedon work.
ETA: What's proper Grammar Jobo? :)
[ edited by Brasilian Chaos Man on 2008-11-07 20:04 ]
Brasilian Chaos Man | November 07, 11:02 CET
gossi, it's Whedon. Of course we'll like it. I love everything the man does.
Ricardo L. | November 07, 11:14 CET
If I were a network exec (which in the real world I would suck at, so lets imagine a bizarro world for a second) I would give those with good track records two full seasons to gain an audience. I'd also give those with one critical success under their belts (Ronald D. Moore, Rob Thomas, Shawn Ryan, etc.) one full season of network support to find an audience. If a network's line-up consisted of mostly critically acclaimed programs from name creators, they'd develop a very positive reputation and the audience would be less likely to channel surf.
The networks are always trying to find the next big hit when these guys are the ones most likely to deliver on that.
JesusSavedIn01 | November 07, 11:26 CET
Is Joss allergic to pay cable?
If so, there's always F/X, A&E, etc. It seems like one of these cable netlets should be tripping over themselves to get into business with Joss.
Hjermsted | November 07, 11:27 CET
Much as another network or station seems like a good idea now, it was never gonna be a factor in Dollhouse.
QuoterGal | November 07, 11:32 CET
@theonetruebix | November 07, 11:37 CET
Okay, maybe a slight exaggeration. But it's probably depressing how slight.
sumogrip | November 07, 11:42 CET
I suppose we should use Firefly itself as our gauge for determining whether Dollhouse is a success or not. Dushku fans should use Tru Calling as their gauge.
If Dollhouse produces more episodes than either of these two shows did, perhaps Fox can be believed when it says it intends to nurture their investment in the program. The Friday death slot is only deadly if Fox axes the show. If Fox lets the show grow on Friday nights for two or three seasons... well I'll happily make Dollhouse my Friday night ritual for 22 weeks out of the year. :)
Hjermsted | November 07, 11:43 CET
Now we get the wonderful news that FOX is screwing a Whedon show AGAIN. Nice move FOX. Shows just don't last in that time slot. Fox always moves shows there that it has no intention of supporting long term. "Sending them to die" is the appropriate term.
Eliza might have a deal with FOX but that shouldn't preclude the show from being picked up on another network. Maybe they should start looking now? Fox can remain the distributor of the show a la Buffy.
If this is another "Firefly" I will vow never to watch FOX again.
[ edited by DarenG on 2008-11-07 20:46 ]
DarenG | November 07, 11:44 CET
Yeah, even his poos are like little bacteria infested Whedon whippees.
(is this one of those "line" situations people keep telling me about ?)
One of the fixed factors in Dollhouse was the network - it was Eliza that had the commitment from Fox, and she who was discussing a possible career direction with Joss ...
Was that the network or the studio though ?
Saje | November 07, 12:36 CET
Dietcoke | November 07, 12:38 CET
crazygolfa | November 07, 12:38 CET
Ignore the media, then. Focus instead on the puppies.
Sunfire | November 07, 12:39 CET
Saje | November 07, 12:50 CET
If we all freak out and spread that pessimism, many people are not going to want to watch because they're afraid of falling in love with the show and then losing it, like they did with Firefly or other shows that were canceled too soon, probably by Fox.
I ask you all this: do you wish you hadn't seen Firefly just because it was canceled? Think about that when you decide whether or not to watch Dollhouse based on these birth pangs. This show needs viewers, so I beg of you to support it and wait to make up your mind about how screwed up or canceled it may get.
In the words of Zoe, I'm not so afraid of losing something that I won't try havin' it. I hope you all feel the same way.
electricspacegirl | November 07, 13:00 CET
It's seems that Whedonesque is no longer the number one result for Whedon.
Simon | November 07, 13:17 CET
Edit: typoz.
[ edited by NYPinTA on 2008-11-07 22:20 ]
NYPinTA | November 07, 13:20 CET
Also, I am now addicted to watching puppies. Cheers for that Sunfire. Don't you know you can't just throw cute around like that without considering the consequences ?
Saje | November 07, 13:20 CET
Simon | November 07, 13:22 CET
Trust Zoe to know what to say! I entirely agree, electricspacegirl.
silvius | November 07, 13:22 CET
alexreager | November 07, 13:28 CET
Saje: Yeah, even his poos are like little bacteria infested Whedon whippees.
That's just gross. And, for the record, I don't idolize Joss, I love his work, not him.
Ricardo L. | November 07, 13:29 CET
Maybe if we all stared at puppy-cams more often, it could end war.
Yeah, ESG - I'm a big fan of loving-while-we-can, too - 'cause it's really all we have, anyway. I understand how getting burnt can make folks fearful, but thishere whole life-on-earth trip is temporary anyway, so it just doesn't work to hole up and hide from potential hurt. Stuff's gonna be painful as well as joyful, but - it's the only game in town.
I'll watch Dollhouse, as I've said, no matter what or where or how. But I will also have to call 'em as I sees 'em - even if I've ended up seeing 'em all wrong.
QuoterGal | November 07, 13:30 CET
@theonetruebix | November 07, 13:31 CET
What's going to keep me from watching is my impending year-long paid vacation abroad, starting the same time as the show.
dreamlogic | November 07, 13:42 CET
That must be google.com, on co.uk W'esque is second for whedon but first for joss whedon.
Maybe if we all stared at puppy-cams more often, it could end war.
The puppies are having a war right now ! I think it actually might encourage violence cos it makes it look cute.
Saje | November 07, 13:43 CET
Well, of course. We fought a revolution to not have to use your top-level domain.
@theonetruebix | November 07, 13:46 CET
Sunfire | November 07, 13:50 CET
Why?
Because we don't watch TV the rest of the week. Honestly, there's nothing else on which has the quality and content we expect other than on Friday. We've been watching Sci-Fi channel to catch SG Atlantis and Sanctuary lately, and they are both Friday night. It's kind of become our family night.
It'd be nice to have Dollhouse as an addition for us old, tired geeks with families, those who don't go wild partying every Friday night (like you youngins' do).
[ edited by quantumac on 2008-11-07 22:54 ]
quantumac | November 07, 13:52 CET
The fact that you, or indeed me for that matter, will inevitably be home on Fridays to watch it doesn't change that. ;)
@theonetruebix | November 07, 13:54 CET
I wonder how many other fans have the same opinion. Maybe not many? Maybe a lot? Dunno. I've always been kind of a "weird bird" when it comes to TV. I like the stuff which gets cancelled, and can't stand the stuff that doesn't (except for Joss' work, of course). :)
quantumac | November 07, 14:02 CET
Lioness | November 07, 14:21 CET
[ edited by electricspacegirl on 2008-11-07 23:26 ]
electricspacegirl | November 07, 14:25 CET
pat32082 | November 07, 14:32 CET
Sunfire | November 07, 14:33 CET
Came straight here to see the comments. I have to say, that before Buffy, whilst being a fan of TV shows in general, I didn't know anything about production. Being UK based I know minus-nothing about how the American television is produced.
There is part of me that now wishes I was back there, in my pre-Whedon days.
Buffy's first episode was enough to make me want to watch it again, but it wasn't until the second season that I became totally hooked, with Innocence. I watched Angel off the back of Buffy and Firefly off the back of that, became a Whedon fan, picking up anything that he's had a hand in.
I really miss the days of being able to just stumble upon something in that way that I did with Buffy. Just pure joy and entertainment. It never entered my head that what I was watching could just disappear. The BBC just doesn't do that, so I suppose that's understandable. By the end of Buffy, I knew a differently, a knowledge of network changes, of Nielsen ratings, of 18-35 demographics.
I think I need a mind-wipe.
I'm not really sure what I'm trying to convey here - but I will obviously be watching Dollhouse when it appears. I'm not expecting it to be brilliant on the first episode, in fact, I'm not expecting it to start to shine until the third episode or so. I'm not sure that anything will ever come close to Buffy (is that wrong of me) again. I suppose it's sort of like Obama, I've an inbuilt high expectation. But to be sure, nothing will be as good as Buffy if it doesn't get a longer run than one season.
It's the curse of being a fan I suppose, ups and downs. That first up being the one that makes you stick with something and normally the one up that that the most emotional resonance...and yes, I am totally rambling now.
Just one thing - does anything think that the Nielsen rating system will change at some point? It seems totally out of date to me. Not only does it seem to be not a true representation of what people are watching as it's not the whole population, the way people watch TV now is totally different, which makes it even more unrepresentative.
Back to Dollhouse for a moment - I will wait to watch the show and try as hard as I can to shut out all of this noise (from critics and "insiders") and my own expectations. I like to form my own opinion.
bubblecat | November 07, 14:35 CET
And who knows, it's three months away. They'll probably change things a few more times before then.
kazzmere | November 07, 14:44 CET
Did someone say they wouldn't be watching Dollhouse?
I think someone may have i.e. I literally recall reading one post that said it wasn't worth it (but I can't find it now so maybe not). Clearly we're not going to not watch and we're not going to stop (nicely) spreading the word (and by 'we' I mean 'you' cos i'm not really in a position to affect the ratings one way or the other ;).
But apparently because Whedonesque can be read by journalists etc. we're all meant to look on the bright side of life, put a brave face on it, keep the British end up (or whichever end's appropriate for you) and generally post only shiny happy comments so that the rest of the world doesn't get the wrong (or possibly, y'know, right) idea.
Saje | November 07, 14:49 CET
As for the whole Friday being convenient thing, well...I like to go to the movies on Fridays, but I have a feeling I'll like staying in to see Dollhouse even better. I can watch Dollhouse, then BSG, and then do my online radio show. So for me, it's convenient, but then again, for me any night would be convenient as I am a total nerd and without a job.
UnpluggedCrazy | November 07, 14:56 CET
As far as not watching, I know a couple of people who never watch first-run shows unless they're guaranteed to make it to season #2 -- they just wait for the DVD and if there's no DVD it wasn't that good anyway. They use the reasoning that since they're not Nielsen people it doesn't matter to the ratings.
cabri | November 07, 15:04 CET
UnpluggedCrazy | November 07, 15:05 CET
cabri | November 07, 15:08 CET
Sunfire | November 07, 15:08 CET
Nowt as queer as folk, as they say.
Saje | November 07, 15:20 CET
UnpluggedCrazy | November 07, 15:24 CET
DigificWriter | November 07, 15:27 CET
My grandmother actually does that, Saje.
Mine was pretty similar UpC, she was deeply suspicious of doctors in general. Must be a grandmother thing ;).
Saje | November 07, 15:34 CET
Let Down | November 07, 16:32 CET
Since in Australia, so far as I recall, it's going straight to cable (which is far less common here than in the US), I wouldn't be surprised if that's what a lot of people here are going to do.
snowinhell | November 07, 17:31 CET
Good to see fellow Australians here ;)
Let Down | November 07, 18:13 CET
NuVanessa | November 07, 18:15 CET
Bad initial press does not necessarily have to mean the kiss of death- remember the kerfuffle about 'The Office'? '30 Rock'? Hell, I'm reaching, but even 'Titanic' was set to tank, and went on to become the No 1 box office draw, ever.
Joss just can't win- if he stays home to work on bettering the scripts, he gets the 'Where the hell is Joss?' deal. Yet, if he was swanning around the set, people would be asking why he wasn't at home, writing.
Perhaps we need to stop over-analyzing every info source, chuck away the WAM's and spend our time looking at pretty pics of the set and anticipating the show, instead of freaking out every time we hear some news.
Now, everyone take a deep breath and de-Salem-ize yourself.
ETA Vanessa-A, I have Austar and don't agree with your interpretation. There are plenty of successful US shows that go straight to Foxtel/Austar in Australia- Dexter, Gossip Girl, The Daily Show, Entourage among them. I'm actually glad Dollhouse went to cable rather than being relegated to some junkyard spot on FTA.
[ edited by missb on 2008-11-08 03:44 ]
missb | November 07, 18:34 CET
snowinhell | November 07, 18:38 CET
jcs | November 07, 18:55 CET
ETA: spelling
[ edited by Vanessa_A on 2008-11-08 04:06 ]
NuVanessa | November 07, 19:04 CET
See, I'm not too sure how anticipated 'Dollhouse' is amongst the general public here. Of course, you have your solid core of Whedon fans, but speaking to Joe the plumber (he lives here, too!), it's not high on the radar. Which may be a good thing, as they haven't been exposed to all the panic going on!
missb | November 07, 19:18 CET
I'll be sad for Joss & Co. if this doesn't work out, but it is what it is, and I'll watch with interest whatever of the show we get. Without risk, no one ever moves forward.
Tonya J | November 07, 20:21 CET
I'd like to think that's not the case here, but I've long ago used up my Friday night optimism.
redeem147 | November 07, 20:41 CET
By anticipated, I meant anticipated by Fox themselves.
NuVanessa | November 07, 20:43 CET
I think the single most important thing to keep in mind is that they don't give a rat's ass about us, unless we suddenly become major stockholders. Maybe not even then.
dreamlogic | November 07, 21:29 CET
NYPinTA | November 07, 22:01 CET
dreamlogic | November 07, 22:11 CET
I read somewhere that Fringe had been cancelled in Australia, was that not true ?
I know that they had to move the timeslot in Sweden due to limited interest and the fact that people around here already have seen the X-Files.
jpr | November 08, 00:21 CET
Nope Let Down, the post I remember (only not well enough to find it again, or maybe it's been edited) didn't mention DVDs, it was just talking about not watching cos the show's as good as cancelled.
Perhaps we need to stop over-analyzing every info source, chuck away the WAM's and spend our time looking at pretty pics of the set and anticipating the show, instead of freaking out every time we hear some news.
Here's the thing missb: we (on here at least) haven't been. This idea that every time something comes down the pike we absolutely freak out with a stream of "OMG, Dollhouse is dead !"s just isn't true, it's becoming myth partly because of the number of people repeating it and partly because of all the people telling everyone not to panic over the last few months (when in fact the number of people actually doing so was vanishingly small).
We've been over-analysing of course but that's pretty much what we do on here, right ? S'why Doctor Horrible generated maybe 2000+ posts by itself.
Saje | November 08, 01:32 CET
JossIzBoss | November 08, 07:10 CET
UnpluggedCrazy | November 08, 12:11 CET