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November 18 2008

(SPOILER) Details about IDW's Angelverse comics out in February. There's the conclusion to After The Fall, the start of Aftermath, Smile Time #2 and the Spike: After The Fall hardcover.

Hmmmm... I'm so torn over this whole 'Aftermath' continuation thing, especially now with this it's confirmed that the numbering will continue rather than being a new mini-series. On the one hand, yay for stories, but on the other, and this is my inherent fan boy talking... it's putting non-canon in the same light as the canon... and i'm not sure how I feel about this.
In the wake of Joss's comment at the Paley reunion that he wouldn't hesitate to do away with the events of Buffy Season Eight, I've begun to consider the canonocity of both BtVS: S8 and Angel: AtF to be somewhat fluid.

I accept the events that are being presented as a continuation of the series, but if a new series/movie were to contradict the events or were I to suddenly find myself vehemently hating the series, I wouldn't really hesitate to set them aside. So I can't say I really have a problem with the new Angel series. To be honest, it's unlikely that I'll keep up with it. I don't have the same emotional investment in Angel that I do in the Buffy series and I don't think I'll have the discipline to stick with an open-ended series. I'm barely staying on top of After the Fall, as it is (still haven't read the latest issue).
In the wake of Joss's comment at the Paley reunion that he wouldn't hesitate to do away with the events of Buffy Season Eight, I've begun to consider the canonocity of both BtVS: S8 and Angel: AtF to be somewhat fluid. I accept the events that are being presented as a continuation of the series, but if a new series/movie were to contradict the events or were I to suddenly find myself vehemently hating the series, I wouldn't really hesitate to set them aside.

That's exactly how I feel, too.

On the matter at hand: okay, now I'm seriously scared. "Who lived, who died, who will be forever changed"...? What the hell happens in the last Angel: After the Fall issue? :S

[ edited by Enisy on 2008-11-19 09:36 ]
In any case, we now have official confirmation that they aren't going to be using Joss' name on it, so that means I'm done post-After the Fall. If Joss eventually gives it a thumbs up comment and people around here really seem to like it, I'll get the TPB/hardcover.
Yeah, I agree with archon. I'm not interested in non-canon continuations.
Too bad, Dave Ross is the first artist (other than Byrne) they've used on the book that I'm familiar with, and he's very good. But I've been really disappointed with most of ATF, and I don't feel that it's worth spending $3.99 an issue to continue with it, especially if Joss isn't involved any more (to be honest I'm not 100% convinced he's even reading the book at this point).
Good plan archon, I'm right there with you.

The whole continuation of the numbers of thing just irks me, however... but I spose it's not so bad.

I've loved After the Fall, and will be sad to see it finished, I hope the ending stands as a fit resolution to the series as a whole.
Hmm I would really like to see Joss's thoughts on this issue... because I am finding the whole issue of canon very annoying. If we don't hear anything before, I will be less inclined to buy it. I haven't been able to read AtF since July (as I am living in Australia and purchasing them at home in England) so I don't know exactly what events would create the 'he isn't even reading them' comments... but I thought it was awesome when I left.

Bah... I don't know... I really don't want Angel to stop for me, but I refuse to read anything that isn't canon.
This has been one of the most lucrative investments for IDW in recent years, they wouldn't just stop it, while there's still considerable interest, not surprised that they'll continue with The After the Fall numbering, after all they decided to do a direct follow up.
I've never considered them canon, and I don't really care. I just like comic books.

I find the tone to A:ATF closer to A:tS, but I find the current Buffy comics better than the old Buffy comics.

I'll keep them in my bin with Superman and the Fantastic Four.
I really don't understand this talk of 'oh it's not canon I'm out' I really don't. I just knew that if I read these comments the first thing to be mentioned would be 'canon' not 'oh wow great more Angel stories....more stories continuing where After the Fall leaves off'- no....just negativity.. I am sick to death of canon talk. There ain't gonna be a movie people. This is it. If you want more Angel stories this is it. And they are bloody good.

The Angel legacy would have died that night over 4 years ago when Not Fade Away aired if it wasn't for IDW taking up the rights. And here we have an honest to goodness great continuation of the TV show...the only one we are gonna get...and people are worried about 'canon'! This is the canon now. This is where the story is. This is where the future of Angel is. And it's a damn good one.

[ edited by angeliclestat on 2008-11-19 14:28 ]
I agree. I just don't get the obsession with the whole canon thing. I've come to conclusion that some would prefer to read a crap story so long as it was 'canon' rather then a wonderfully told tale that wasn't.

Joss isn't that obsessed with it, so why should the fans be?
I'm inclined to agree when it comes to putting my own personal reading and enjoyment of a series above whether it has been officially described as canon. I understand the importance of an 'official story so far' and I think it's important too, just not as important as my own personal understanding of the thing. That's my take, anyway, and chances are I'm going to give Aftermath a shot at the very least.
Exactly redders. People are saying that they aren't even going to give Aftermath a chance.

It's a story from the company that is bringing you the continuation of the Angel legacy as granted by its creator. So.......I really dont get the problem.

I dont know. I will work myself up into a ball of annoyance if I think about it anymore lol.

I am excited about it, and I will be there until the last page of the last comic,which I hope won't be for many years to come.
I get the canon issue and why people care so much about it.They want to know the stories matter in the larger scheme of the verse.So I get why people always bring it up.As far as I'm concerned,Aftermath is canon.It's picking up from the events of After The Fall and dealing with the fallout from it.As far as I can see that makes it canon just like Angel:After The Fall,Spike:After The Fall,Spike:Asylum and Shadow Puppets(which were retro canonized) and Fray,Tales Of The Slayers and Tales Of The Vampires.

And even if a story isn't canon,I'll still read it and enjoy it if it's a good story just like the previous IDW comics that don't fall under the hard "canon" list.Canon or not canon don't determine whether I'll enjoy the story.
No offense but I am getting really weary of the banging on about canon. It's depressing. I really enjoy the Angel comics immensely. They are as close to the show as we will ever get again. Therefore, I keep buying and reading and enjoying.

I really don't enjoy the Buffy comics anymore, they feel way too far from the show that I loved, therefore I stopped buying and reading. However, I don't feel the need to immediately urinate on every thread that discusses them.

I really wish that the first response to every Angel comic thread didn't have to be the canon complaints. It's kind of a downer to those of use who couldn't give a rat's tuchus about canon.
I'm not sure if we're as much worked up over it being the official continuation as we are concerned about Joss's involvement in the continuation. Unlike, for example, the Star Wars universe, when something within the Buffyverse is considered canon, that usually means that Joss is, in some way, creatively involved. The non-canon aspects of the Buffyverse, such as the novels, usually mean that Joss is financially involved. And, to be honest, there are very few people that I would trust with the creative direction of the series, besides Joss Whedon

I'm not going to pretend to know how involved Joss is in the After the Fall series. It could very well be that he is very much responsible for the story. Regardless, it doesn't grab me. I don't think I've ever gone to my comic shop to pick up an issue, unless there's been a new issue of Buffy to buy, as well. But, as I said, that could be as much an issue with Joss's writing as it is with Brian's writing. However, as close-minded as it may sound, I can't imagine suddenly enjoying the series, once Joss is officially not involved at all.

Personally, this isn't about getting any type of continuation that I can get. I want a solid continuation and I happen to think that my best chances of getting that would be if Joss was creatively involved. I'm not saying I won't give Aftermath a chance. I'll probably pick up the first few issues, when I'm getting my Buffy books. But I think there's a pretty good chance that I won't go beyond that. Same thing happened with the Spike miniseries.

Also, I know that Brian Lynch is a member and, if you're reading this, I don't mean that as an attack on your writing. I think it's obvious that most people completely adore the series and would leap at the chance to hand-feed you grapes (peeled, even!), but something just isn't to my personal taste. Though, being the consumerist I am, I still buy every issue and hardcover collection that IDW releases.
I think it's wonderful that there will be only be a short time between the ending of AtF and the beginning of Aftermath.I'm not worried about the canon/non-canon argument, I'm just looking forward to the continuation of a superb story.
Have to agree with those tired of the "is it canon" debate. I'm more than happy to treat it as canon until Joss tells us that it's not. It's a direct continuation of what we have already been told definitely is canon so that's good enough for me.

We already know that Joss has mentioned he would be willing to throw all the Buffy and Angel comic continuity out of the window if a live-action project ever happened and the story he came up with didn't fit what happened in the comics. Therefore nothing we have read is guaranteed to be set in stone forever. May as well accept that and enjoy them for what they are.

Quick question for anyone who might know. Is this the same Dave Ross that used to be the regular artist on Avengers West Coast for Marvel? Hope so because I absolutely love his style.
That's him, Highlander, yeah.
That's good to know. Cheers, Enisy! :)
I am glad to see I am not the only one that feels that way about the canon issue.

I have looked up some of Dave Ross's style, and it looks amazing. Can't wait to see some previews.
I've seen pages and WOW. He is awesome.
His Avengers West Coast work was amazing so I've got no doubt about that, Brian. Really looking forward to seeing what he does with Team Angel.

Or whatever is left of Team Angel after you have finished with them, I suppose. ;)
It's kind of a downer to those of use who couldn't give a rat's tuchus about canon.

Welcome to fandom, where one isn't required to worry about whether or not any other fan gives a rat's tuchus about what one cares about. ;)
You've seen pages from Aftermath? lucky lucky bugger:)
As someone who is obsessed with whether or not something is or isn't canon, I'd like to know how we know Aftermath isn't canon and Asylum and Shadow Puppets have become "retro canonized". I didn't get the memo. Thanks.
Asylum and Shadow Puppets were retro canonized in my mind because of Betta George having a role in ATF and the rest of the Mosaic crew appearing in ATF #10.To me,using those characters and making reference in ATF to those two miniseries means Asylum and Shadow Puppets happened within the 'canon' continuty.

That's my opinion anyway.
I might give Aftermath a shot.

But I'm sorry, canon does mean a lot to me. I'm not holding out for a movie or any such live-action continuation at all, I'm just not interested in reading something that doesn't actually count. If it's fun and good, hey, I might check out the TPB like archon. But I doubt I'll be buying it monthly.
Buffyfantic - "To me,using those characters and making reference in ATF to those two miniseries means Asylum and Shadow Puppets happened within the 'canon' continuty."

I don't see how Shadow Puppets can fit anywhere within the continuity though... can you? Help me out on that. Asylum, though, that can fit pretty much anywhere.

sueworld2003 - "I've come to conclusion that some would prefer to read a crap story so long as it was 'canon' rather then a wonderfully told tale that wasn't."

Hell yes I would rather read a crap 'canon' story than an utterly amazing piece of glorified fan fic. And this brings up the whole actual point of the matter. If some random tells a great story, what's the point? The stories and characters aren't theirs to give. I would rather have the emotional investment to go through the journey of what seems like questionable storylines and character developments like I and many others have done with the television episodes. It's no different than that. I feel that Joss and friends have control over the universe and the characters and my reactions to their decisions are far more important than reading a 'good' story that is ultimately meaningless.

And plus, I'm a poor university student and can't afford to lose money on anything that doesn't count and contribute to the series and the saga as a whole.

[ edited by aapac on 2008-11-20 01:43 ]
Hell yes I would rather read a crap 'canon' story than an utterly amazing piece of glorified fan fic.

Good grief. Oh well your loss love.

Oh and I hope that you remember that Joss said that he'd drop the comics if a live action movie was in the offering? So maybe canon isn't as important to Joss as it is some others on here.

[ edited by sueworld2003 on 2008-11-20 01:50 ]
I think Joss might subscribe to this philosophy: subjectivity of reality. It's a huge theme he explores in The Chain - "Truth? There is no truth. There's only what you believe."

Allow me to alter this to say "Canon? There is no canon. There's only what you believe."

But the dilemma for a lot of fans is that we understand canon to be: "Canon? There is canon. There's only what Joss believes." So while Joss is able to play with canon so fluidly within his own mind, a flexibility emboldened by subjective reality, to us the Buffyverse within Joss' mind is the birthplace of canon. To the audience, Joss is the first and foremost narrative voice of the 'verse.

So we keep waiting for the Joss seal of approval because he was the leader of BtVS and AtS. We can see the difference between the old Buffy comics and Buffy Season 8, the difference being the lack of a seasonal arc and corresponding themes that tie it all together. A story that teaches us many lessons, explores complex themes and changes the characters. Makes the story count - all done with elegant story structure, wordplay and a self-aware irony. We have a prime example of the difference in comics of Joss and no-Joss. That's why it matters so much to a lot of fans.
Guys, these are just opinions. As fans, we're a pretty varied group and, as a result, some of us are going to have different priorities. I completely understand why people limit themselves to canon-based works. I also completely understand people who find the thought utterly ridiculous. Neither party is right or wrong.

Personally, I find the canonocity of the stories important, though not a deciding factor. Given the option of reading a canon story or a non-canon story, of equal quality, I would obviously choose the canon story. If, during the TV days, I was given the option of reading a fantastic non-canon story or watching a mediocre episode *cough*"The Killer in Me"*cough*, I would still choose the mediocre episode. But the ease with which I would make the choice would be considerably lessened and would continue to degrade, as the corresponding qualities diverge. Did that make any sense at all?

It's just the way I am with the fandom. In no way does it affect anyone else, so I don't really see why anyone else should have a problem with it.
I take a very strict view of canon . . . then walk away from it.
It's never a great idea to make one's first post in a fan community a late and extremely long personal response to a canon debate, but....

Six months ago, all I knew about BtVS was that it was a lousy movie and a bad TV show (I hate camp, and the only episodes I saw during the initial run were "Killed by Death" and, wait for it, "Beer Bad"). AtS wasn't even on my radar. Still, I was annoyed by not quite getting all the BtVS references one comes across in geek circles, so I reluctantly Netflixed Season 1.

Six weeks later, I had watched all of BtVS and AtS, in broadcast order. (And Firefly in correct episode order.) Consumed my life. And when I was done, I wanted -- needed -- more.

And apparently there were these comics....

Now, the last time I read comics on a regular basis, the McFarlane Spider-Man was still in single digits. And I never, ever would have read Season 8 or After the Fall solely because they had a license to the characters. After all, I never considered reading any of the tie-in novels. I knew that Joss had no involvement, and I want Joss or Joss-designated minions.

I think that Chris Ryall got it right in the editorial to AtF #1:

[I]f we're going to tell stories that fans can truly consider canon, only one person can anoint them as such -- Pope Joss Whedon.

However, Whedon doesn't have to control everything. In many ways AtS (show and comic) is my favorite title, and I don't think that AtS was ever Joss's baby in the way that BtVS or Firefly were. And Joss simply can't make me care about Fray or the X-Men or whoever, in any medium. (Plus, that Warren retcon? Dude. That's.... No.)

I don't really think that when After the Fall becomes Aftermath, Betta George is suddenly going to teach us that Abortion Is Wrong, to paraphrase Joss on the tie-in novels. And, most importantly, early issues with the art aside, I'm enjoying the book more than S8.

Canon, shmanon. IDW's Angel, whatever the subtitle, will remain one of the two comic books I actually read.
I think Shadow Puppets can be slotted in between episodes in the latter part of season 5.
Welcome Structuregeek. I love to hear from the newly converted.

Just thought but maybe those of us who don't care about canon so much are the ones who respond more to the story than to the creator.

Just as Joss can't make you care about Fray or X-men, he couldn't make me care about Firefly. It happens. Joss isn't my god. I love him for creating Buffy, and Angel, and for most of his work on those shows. I respect his abilities and his creativity, but I don't love everything he does.I'm okay with that, and so probably is he. The story is what matters.
Xane, I don't necessarily love everything Joss has done but when it comes to the Buffyverse I feel like Joss brings A-game material and most of the best episodes of the 'verse are penned and directed by him.

Just thought but maybe those of us who don't care about canon so much are the ones who respond more to the story than to the creator.

Well, I don't think the people who value canon care about the story less. The story was the reason (for me) why I even took notice of the writers and creators. The story is *why* many people are fans of Joss - I cannot separate the two.

Here's my logic train: Why I am a fan of Joss? Because I love the stories he tells. Why do I love these stories (Becoming, Graduation Day, OMWF, A Hole in The World) the most in the Buffyverse? Well, they were written by Joss. I must love Joss' work the best.
Strangely enough many of my favorite episodes weren't actually written by him. :0
Yes, but Sue, he created the 'verse and supervised every script of the show. I noticed that you seem to like Joss less every time you post, which is pretty odd. I don't know why there always has to be "Buffy: Season Eight rocks by Angel: AtF sucks and IDW are weeeeird" and "No, see, Buffy: Season Eight sucks but Angel: AtF rocks and Joss is poopy." I think both have been very, very good.
In the show at least Joss wasn't a total one man band. Yes He oversaw other staff writers, but they did have input into the show on their own right too, as did costume, lighting, make-up etc. All helped shaped the show that we saw aired in varying degrees.

The comics is Joss at his most 'concentrated' so to speak, and so I found it a bit of a shock that I actually didn't think much of what he was doing with them. But others love them and thats great.
Some of us think canon matters whether it's Joss's 'verses or anyone else's. And it gets more than a little tiresome being condescended to as perhaps not very open-minded because of an unwillingness to just grab up anything and run with it, whether it's actually part of the "real" story or not. Is it "my big loss" (to quote an earlier post) if I don't choose to view non-canon materials in the same way as I do the canon materials? No. It's really, really not. Any more than it's "your loss" (editorial "you") if you don't like the Season 8 comics. It's a matter of personal preference and that's the beginning and end of it. Some people don't care in the least about canon. Good for them. I do. Good for me.
And as you say "Good for you". :)

[ edited by sueworld2003 on 2008-11-20 15:09 ]
I think canon is absolutely important. But whether or not it "counts" won't affect my enjoyment of a good story. "Glorified fanfic" can still be pretty damn good (e.g., the Torchwood novel Trace Memory is brilliant).

I plan on picking up at least the first few issues of Aftermath. If they entertain me, I'll continue to buy them. If they suck, I'll stop reading them. (Although, if they were canon, I would buy them even if they were garbage. Fan loyalty is a bizarre thing, and it's the only reason I'm still watching Nip/Tuck.)
(e.g., the Torchwood novel Trace Memory is brilliant).

I haven't read that one but I was very impressed by The Twilight Streets. In my mind it was better than a lot of the Torchwood episodes.
Now come on, lets face it that isn't hard. *g* *runs*
Whether or not a non-canon story is "good" is not the issue that I or anyone else on the canon side of the discussion has raised, as far as I've seen. Non-canon stories can be a good read (just because most of what I've seen isn't doesn't change that,) but they don't matter to the actual story, and that's the whole point for me. I still haven't read all of the original comic series or licensed novels for that same reason; if I run dry on reading material, I'll pick one up, but I don't go out of my way because they're no different from DC's "imaginary" Superman stories of the '60s: they're stories that exist outside the real storyline. I can read and (maybe) even enjoy them as a bit of fluff the same way I might enjoy reading a well-written fanfic, but anything that doesn't "count" is not a must-read for me.
But Rowan Hawthorn - they way I approach it is that Aftermath continues the numbering from After the Fall (the main story) it is a continuation of the main story. Anything outside of that is open to debate...but I still don't understand why people aren't accepting of Aftermath as the continuation...of the continuation:)

Just as Superman is at issue 700 and odd...and Batman is # 600 and odd (or something along those figures.)- the story lines in those main issues is the main story of those characters. And yes I agree with those that think those universes have gotton convoluted...they have! But nothing in AtF or Aftermath, and whatever follows that is going to contradict the show, or what has gone before it...since it is the continuation of the show...same as Buffy Season 8,9,10 or whatever it goes to.They are continuing the story.

I think it is just so annoying as an Angel fan to have to constantly fight for the comics to be recognised when the Buffy comics are accepted readily. Do we not deserve the same treatment?
anheliclestat, who's treating you any differently from anything? For that matter, who's treating you any way at all? I didn't even so much as mention Aftermath, because what I'm saying has to do with the subject of canonicity in general. The Buffy comics are accepted as canon because they were specifically stated to be such; if Joss says Aftermath is canon, then as far as I'm concerned, that settles that question, and whatever anyone else's opinion might be is irrelevant. (Note that I don't follow the Angel comic anyway, canon or not. I was indifferent about the show and I'm indifferent about the comic.) My entire point was addressed as to why I prefer canon to non-canon. If people would stop changing the questions, maybe we could actually get to the point of understanding the answers.
Oh and theres me thinking that this thread was for the Angel comic.

If you don't like and read them, or even like the show for that matter then why exactly are you here again?

[ edited by sueworld2003 on 2008-11-20 17:18 ]
I wasn't aiming that last comment specifically at you Rowan -sorry if it came across that way.

I just meant that from the very beginning, even though Joss said the After the Fall was canon...some people still would not accept it. Even thought he co-plotted it and his name is on it- people *still* would not accept it as canon. So it didnt seem to make a difference to some people then.And now the story is continuing, people are still making an issue about it.

So whether or not Joss comes out and specifically says it is canon....well I do not think that everyone will accept it unless it has 'Season' in the title...or he puts pen to paper himself. Which I think is silly. Yes he created the Angelverse...but the day to day running of it was always done by other people. Just like now. So I really dont think there is that much difference between the show and the comic. Just that Joss is not as interested in it as he is in Buffy or Serenity. Fair enough. But for the fans that are....then we should be granted the rights for the continuation to be seen as 'official' without having to constantly fight for it.
angeliclestat - I don't think Joss ever said that After the Fall was canon, I think it was just generally accepted as canon. (Unless someone can find a quote...?)
I'm about two months behind picking up my subs at the comic book shop (waiting for that damn Buffy #20!), so I'm not sure how many Angel comics I'll be getting when I get up there - two, I think, and the last Spike: ATF - but me, for some reason, I'm enjoying catching up on all the non-canon Buffy comics through the Omnibuses - but have no particular interest in doing the same with the Angel non-canon stuff. No idea why. But while I don't foresee myself continuing past ATF to Aftermath, it's more a matter of finances than anything else - in retrospect I'm rather stunned at how much I've spent now that I've been sucked into the world of comics (and that includes things like Watchmen, which incidentally is one of the greatest things I've ever read, and I probably never would have thought about reading if not for getting sucked into the Whedonverse first).

As for fanfic - for me it's a matter of quality - so far I've found it way too imposing a task to wade through the bad to find the good. I'll have to check and see if .org has a section for fanfic recommendations - or ask for them there.
Joss never said ATF was canon? Whoa boy.
If we can all step back from the abyss for a minute, I think Joss' last remarks about After The Fall can be found at the following URL.
Honestly, I don't ever recall After the Fall having an issue with canon. It seems to me like everyone has pretty much accepted that it is definitely canon. I don't even see how it's questionable. I think the reason that Aftermath is undergoing scrutiny is that the story has not been actually plotted/co-plotted by Joss.

I know that Kelley Armstrong has stated that the story will be approved by Joss, but technically all of the novels/early comics are also approved by Joss. That doesn't mean he actually reads the stories. That means somebody with the authority to approve them has read the stories. Obviously, we can't be sure that's the case with Aftermath, but I know that's the reason that I'm not entirely certain that it's canon.
That's a good read, Simon. I don't think I'd read that before. Thanks for the link!

Though (and I'm blushing as I type this) it does raise some questions for me about After the Fall. I'd always assumed that everything had been completely plotted out by both Brian and Joss. Is that the case? A few parts of the intervew make me think otherwise, but I know I can't be sure. I'm sure I'll consider it canon either way, but I think it would be interesting to know.
Oh and theres me thinking that this thread was for the Angel comic.

If you don't like and read them, or even like the show for that matter then why exactly are you here again?

I'm sorry. I didn't realize I needed your approval.

I'm here because I do follow what's going on in the 'verse as a whole - and, in fact, I might ask you the same question when you post in Season 8 threads. If you'll notice, I didn't post in this thread until it got to the same old "Oh, you think canon makes a difference? Oh, MY!" point again, at which time I voiced my opinion on the canon debate. There y'are.
Right I think I'll bring the canon debate to an end. At the rate we're going we'll end up throttling each other or worse (end up on fandom wank).

So talk about what you'd like to see in Aftermath or whether you think Smile Time will be worth buying. We'll resume the canon debate in the next month that has a 'z' in it.
Not approval, just interested hun. :)

Well as for the new comics I for one are going to purchase both.

I'm looking forward to seeing what a new writer is going to do with 'Aftermath; and as for Smiletime, well it was one of my favorite episodes, so thats a must for me too. *g*

[ edited by sueworld2003 on 2008-11-20 19:00 ]
I don't even think I know a thing about Smile Time. Is it a direct adaptation of the episode, or something different?

As far as what I'd like to see in Aftermath, I think it all depends on how After the Fall concludes.

And I, for one, am quite looking forward to Dezember! ;)
Simon, I probably will at least check out "Smile Time", seeing as it was one of my favorite episodes of AtS.
Come on, Dezember!
Something I'd like to see for Aftermath? Brian writing it.

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