Whedonesque : Comments on 18220 : (SPOILER) For the discussion of Buffy #19.

Things to look out for (based on much fevered speculation).

1) Some sort of major reset.
2) A death.

Simon | November 26, 15:09 CET

!!!

Picking this up in about three hours along with ATF 14. Super excited.

Jobo | November 26, 15:58 CET

I'm very excited for this! We need something new to talk about on the forums.

CowboyGuy | November 26, 17:47 CET

Grr... went to my comic shop and, as usual, forgot that they don't put out the week's new comics until after 5 PM...

Knuckleball | November 26, 18:45 CET

Gotsss my preciousssss...... :-)

...now, if I can just find time to actually flippin' read it... :-(

Rowan Hawthorn | November 26, 18:57 CET

Knuckleball, is that true? That's a damn shame.

All the comic book stores I visit start making room on Tuesday, and by the time the door is open on Wednesday, the stock is in.

CowboyCliche | November 26, 18:58 CET

And so ends the Fray crossover. This finale had some nice momentum in the early pages, but lost some steam when it cut away to the distracting battle of the Forest People (and some rather hilarious large bunnies and chicks). Since last we saw him, Xander seems to have acquired a medieval archer's helmet, no explanation provided.

We do get another "big reveal" in the form of a cameo from a character that we haven't seen in a while. This was the person Buffy dressed up to meet secretly in New York. And this person is evidently allied with Twilight. That came as a surprise.

Simon mentioned there would be a death, and there was. Not sure that the death answered questions so much as raised them.

1starbuckstown | November 26, 19:56 CET

We do get another "big reveal" in the form of a cameo from a character that we haven't seen in a while.

Riley?

Simon | November 26, 19:57 CET

Riley?

Why be coy? Yes.

1starbuckstown | November 26, 19:59 CET

Cheers :). Did Future Willow get killed off?

Simon | November 26, 20:02 CET

Did Future Willow get killed off?

You're two for two.

1starbuckstown | November 26, 20:05 CET

What about the monkey?
Who is it really?

Michamon | November 26, 20:15 CET

The mystery of the monkey remains a mystery.

1starbuckstown | November 26, 20:24 CET

Bring on the As You Were retcons! ;) :P

And it was pretty predictable that Future Willow would be the character killed off. Hope it wasn't done in a pointless manner, like the time-travel events in Heroes as of late.

Will probably have the issue tomorrow myself.

Enisy | November 26, 20:26 CET

So is Riley working with Twilight or just in the issue and confronting Twilight? Cause I actually liked Riley and LOVED his role in season 6's "As You Were" for helping Buffy in a way that NOBODY else was apparently able to so I'd hate for them to suddenly make him evil - though I don't think that would make a retcon out of his last Buffy appearance...

[ edited by love4ba on 2008-11-26 20:41 ]

love4ba | November 26, 20:30 CET

"I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now"

-- Bob Dylan

Or, it could have been Buffy Summers. And Willow Rosenberg. And Melaka Fray. And Xander Harris. And Rowena.

Folks, we have a theme, and a central crisis for Buffy, identified at last.

"The funny thing about changing the world..."

"I miss churros."

"That girl's so stuck in the past..."

FUTURE:

Willow apparently lived long enough just to make Buffy kill her. I can't see another reason. Maybe she knew that she, herself, would need killing and needed Buffy to learn how. Or maybe when she learned what we learned in this issue, she knew Buffy needed to know how to kill someone she loves. I don't know if its a lesson I want Buffy to know, of course.

I loved Buffy and Mel both carrying narration through their fight. Their perspectives were very nice.

It's a very powerful moment that Buffy destroys Fray's scythe, not just Buffy's determination, and her *power*, but also symbolically. The scythe is the symbol of the Slayer line. The Slayer's posterity. And she was willing and able to destroy it to save the world. Is that intended as symbolism?

Glad that Gunther survived. I really thought he was toast.

PRESENT:

Xander and Dawn were cute again, but the forest creatures thing ended up being mostly inexplicable. It was very cool to see Xander's Slayers rally, though, and clear the field. Led by Rowena (Leah up and fighting!), after Xander's pep talk. Nice moment of pride there.

So, Riley's not Twilight. But, he's a bad guy. AND, he's who Buffy is meeting. She thinks he's a resource and she apparently has decided she wants to reignite things with him, too. Don't know if he's married or not still, and don't know if Buffy's meant to care. But it's part of the theme. Riley makes that pretty clear. They probably haven't slept together, though, since I *think* she'd notice the scar-like tattoo on his chest. But maybe this was the muppety odin sex she was missing? That would make the most sense.

Maybe Twilight really IS Graham. Sounded silly at some point, but now it almost makes sense. Did he ever call Buffy "girl"?

Enisy, FDW's death wasn't "pointless", but it wasn't immediately self-explanatory. It only makes sense in the context of what she says about it mattering who kills someone. She needed Buffy to be the one to kill her. Not clear why yet.

[ edited by KingofCretins on 2008-11-26 20:36 ]

KingofCretins | November 26, 20:35 CET

She thinks he's a resource and she apparently has decided she wants to reignite things with him, too. Don't know if he's married or not still, and don't know if Buffy's meant to care. But it's part of the theme. Riley makes that pretty clear.

*sigh*

And the theme continues. Ugh.

love4ba | November 26, 20:43 CET

Which theme would that be? Buffy trying to relive her past whenever it's put in front of her?

I think that's what's going on. It was set up in the first line of the season. And, really, I think Buffy thought of Riley as a missed opportunity, ever since "Into the Woods". And she thinks he's someone she can trust who's in the military, so she thought she'd get both out of this.

I am REALLY hoping that this is our answer to both the "inside man" (can't be coincidence that the phrase is used twice, and anything he needed to tell Molter and Twilight he could have found out on the phone or texting with his girlfriend/mistress), and the betrayal set up in "Anywhere But Here".

KingofCretins | November 26, 20:46 CET

Does any of this matter? Not being coy here. Have not had a copy to read yet, but as I read the comments, I am wondering, what changes as a result. In the story here and now, not in the future that won't be. Or will it?

Dana5140 | November 26, 20:49 CET

I said earlier that the death of Future Willow raised more questions than it answered. I can understand why she might want to die after having lived two centuries too long. What's not clear is why she had to die the way she does. Why did Buffy have to be the person who killed her? Perhaps we'll learn more about this later. It's also not clear why she bothered to involve Harth and his gang in her death-fulfilling plot. They didn't seem to affect the outcome in any way.

1starbuckstown | November 26, 20:51 CET

Actually, Mel and Erin very noticeably fail to evaporate from time and space after Buffy returns, so, it isn't a "won't be", apparently. We didn't see more than them on the roof, so who knows what has changed, though. That might not be how Joss' time travel works, their alternate timeline stays theirs regardless, but Buffy's now has a different future.

The big change is Buffy weeping into Present Willow's arms when she comes back after having rather coldly and brutally run Future Willow through with the stake-end of the Scythe. Buffy knows she can kill one of her friends to save the world, and apparently now also knows she really, really would rather not have to.

KingofCretins | November 26, 20:53 CET

I won't lie, I was somewhat disappointed with the issue, but thats just an initial reaction after my first read through. I think I was looking for some big answers as well as some big jaw dropping reveal, none of which I got. We didn't even get to see what Willow showed Fray to make her completely distrust Buffy. Most likely I'm just impatient, but I also just feel like perhaps its getting a little convoluted. Again, this is just after the first read through, so I'll probably read through it again, find ten different new things I didn't see the first time and then think that the issue was awesome.

Also, I second being bummed that Riley is a baddie, especially after "As You Were". I always felt a little bad for the guy. I'm finding that there is very little happy in this series. Plenty of funny, but definitely not a lot of happy.

TOASTERslayer | November 26, 20:53 CET

Maybe Twilight really IS Graham. Sounded silly at some point, but now it almost makes sense. Did he ever call Buffy "girl"?

But if Twilight is Graham, doesn't he automatically lose a lot of the credibility that made him such an interesting villain? I don't watch Season 4 very often, but I don't remember if we were ever supposed to agree with Graham there, let alone sympathise with him.

And the theme continues. Ugh.

Gotta agree with you there, Luc. Also doesn't make much sense to me, given that Riley wasn't part of her romantic/sexual fantasies in The Long Way Home. (Or is that the point? That she'll just take whatever she can get?)

Also not loving the prospect of more tree-men pagetime.

Enisy | November 26, 20:54 CET

The panel in 8.03 was one dream, psychologically guaranteed to be what was most embarrassing to Buffy at that moment to have shown (pink elephant rule). There was never any rational argument for it being a definitive statement of all her sexual wants and needs. Your answer is presupposing something that was never true, that Riley didn't matter that much to her romantically *or* sexually. 8.19 says, if nothing else, you really *can't* get there from here, where "there" is the "Buffy didn't really want Riley back in 'Into the Woods'", etc. view of her history.

[ edited by KingofCretins on 2008-11-26 20:57 ]

[ edited by KingofCretins on 2008-11-26 20:58 ]

KingofCretins | November 26, 20:57 CET

Riley's bad?

Uh. Say it ain't so.

menomegirl | November 26, 20:59 CET

The thing is... we already know Buffy can kill a loved one in order to save the world. She killed Angel. So why would we need to revisit that theme?

jelac07 | November 26, 21:13 CET

I enjoyed this issue a lot. Especially the "It's a long story," panel, which was just incredible for a tiny, probably 2x1.5 inch square. I loved that. And I assume we'll get more explanation for why she had Buffy kill her like that in the future--something like that isn't exactly droppable. I imagine this will have to have some impact on Buffy and Willow's relationship as well--for example, will Willow find out?

And RILEY. Wow. First, I just think it takes a lot of confidence in Georges not to have his name actually said, and second, go Georges for not having me confused for even a second. Anyway, I still think there are more twists with him to come. He said, "She thinks I'm her inside man" or something. So she presumably knows he's hangin' with the big T. I don't think it's entirely certain which side he's actually on.

Jobo | November 26, 21:14 CET

Riley as bad guy....oh there's a novelty. *g*

Maybe it won't be what it first appears? I hope so.

sueworld2003 | November 26, 21:14 CET

Gotta agree with you there, Luc. Also doesn't make much sense to me, given that Riley wasn't part of her romantic/sexual fantasies in The Long Way Home. (Or is that the point? That she'll just take whatever she can get?)

Thanks, Enisy, glad to see I'm not alone in thinking along these lines...

I'm not even talking about the sexual fantasy threesome as much as the idea of Buffy just taking whatever comes along. So much for the cookie dough speech. I was REALLY hoping to see Buffy explore herself outside of sex and relationships and yet, we see her repeating old and bad patterns. I'm having a REALLY tough time connecting to this Buffy.

King, first, thanks for the review..

The panel in 8.03 was one dream, psychologically guaranteed to be what was most embarrassing to Buffy at that moment to have shown (pink elephant rule). There was never any rational argument for it being a definitive statement of all her sexual wants and needs.

And yet aren't you one of those who thinks B/X was absolutely desinted to happen because there HAD to be follow-through on the dream kiss/Xander head exploding? Hmmm. That was psychologically exploring Buffy's fears and there was never any rational argument for it being a definitive statement of her sexual wants or needs as it may relate to Xander either and yet...

Just saying.

[ edited by love4ba on 2008-11-26 21:24 ]

love4ba | November 26, 21:23 CET

Unfortunately I highly doubt Riley is a triple agent. If they were going to have a twist regarding Riley's involvement, mostly likely it would have been to reveal him working with Twilight and then reveal that he's actually working with Buffy as her inside man. With that said, its never really what you expect, so who knows.

TOASTERslayer | November 26, 21:25 CET

No, we argued it proved exactly what it did prove -- that seducing Xander was in her head. It was on the table. Rebutting what we usually face, which is this blanket denial that he is anything romantic or sexual to her *at all*.

That is not parallel at all to the implication that she had a skanky dream of Angel and Spike at the same time, and therefore that's it, that's all she wants, there's no room for Riley or anyone else.

Actually, I am suddenly thinking Twilight really might be Ethan. It's always been on the table, and no trouble to suggest his apparent death was an illusion, but how he talks to Riley and the "young love" thing, fits Sachs voice. Plus, Joss did write "Chaos Bleeds" didn't he? The basic story idea, wherein Ethan is truly villainous?

That would track -- Ethan slowly turned Riley?

KingofCretins | November 26, 21:27 CET

I have my copy.On the Riley reveal.I didn't get the impression that she was trying to revive her relationship with him.I got the impression that she was trying to use her feminine charms and their past to get him on her side since she knew the military was connected to Twilight and Riley has connection to the military.She wants Riley to be her insider with the military.Which amused Riley because obviously there past doesnt matter and he is not on her side.

I also don't think this has to retcon,"As You Were."The last time we've heard about Riley was in the season 7 episode,"The Killer In Me" where Riley sent help to Buffy to deactivate Spike's chip.

I assuming something must of happened between then and the start of season 8 to change Riley's views on Buffy.Maybe something happened to Sam?I'm hoping whatever happened to change Riley is going to be revealed as season 8 continues.

I thought it was pretty powerful and sad that Buffy kills Dark Willow.Also it looks to me like the Fray future is going to continue based off the way the issue ended.

I really need to re-read the issue.

[ edited by Buffyfantic on 2008-11-26 21:36 ]

Buffyfantic | November 26, 21:33 CET

This was the first 'meh' issue for me. This arc added to the Buffy storyline, but did nothing for the Fray storyline. I like Fray and Buffy separately and am so glad that this crossover is over.

And, oh, ok, so it is Riley? I couldn't tell it was him, which kinda ruined the big reveal. I figured it might be though because of the cargo pants, but I honestly couldn't tell if I'd ever seen that character before. At one point I thought it could've been Andrew. I also thought that Buffy and Erin were separated at birth since I had trouble distinguishing them at times. I did love the giant bunnies and chicks though.

Also, I just had to walk for an hour to get to a comic book store in NY city of all places. Come on, that ain't right!

Vanessa_A | November 26, 21:37 CET

Eh, I had this whole paragraph about the Angel/Buffy/Spike thing, but I think I'll just save it for the 'shipping threads.

I'm not even talking about the sexual fantasy threesome as much as the idea of Buffy just taking whatever comes along. So much for the cookie dough speech. I was REALLY hoping to see Buffy explore herself outside of sex and relationships and yet, we see her repeating old and bad patterns. I'm having a REALLY tough time connecting to this Buffy.

Same here, which is really sad, given that she's my favourite character. But maybe/hopefully we're not supposed to?

Enisy | November 26, 21:39 CET

On the Riley reveal.I didn't get the impression that she was trying to revive her relationship with him.I got the impression that she was trying to use her feminine charms and their past to get him on her side since she knew the military was connected to Twilight and Riley has connection to the military.She wants Riley to be her insider with the military.Which amused Riley because obviously there past doesnt matter and he is not on her side.

Ah, that's nice to know, thanks! I haven't been able to read it yet - obviously - so I'm happy to know it's not necessarily romantic angling.

King, we still just don't agree. The dream wasn't about Xander or Buffy thinking about seducing Xander at all. And I just personally believe that if it was meant to show the possibility as being on the table, we'd have seen some followup to it - even Buffy acting differently around Xander after the dream. But there has been nothing.

Same here, which is really sad, given that she's my favourite character. But maybe/hopefully we're not supposed to?

It is sad cause she's my favorite character too. And that's optimistic, let's try for that, shall we? ;)

love4ba | November 26, 21:45 CET

I won't have this issue for a few days yet, TFAW being slow and all, so I am commenting only on what I read here. As to it being Riley, so far no real surprises. This almost certainly means Twilight is someone we have seen somewhere before. Ethan makes a lot of sense, but that also seems too obvious. I still really do not know what the death of FDW means, beyond the comment that Buffy knows she can kill a friend to save the world, except, she had already done so, so there is no resonance here at all; in fact, we really don't know how FDW got there to begin with, so her death just means little in terms of an emotional payoff. It sounds like there really is none, unless this is a butterfly death scenario.

Dana5140 | November 26, 21:47 CET

Butterfly death scenario?

1starbuckstown | November 26, 21:51 CET

Got it. Dream about Xander = only the vampires are on the table. Dream about the vampires = only the vampires are on the table. Fantasy about Daniel Craig presumably = only the vampires are on the table. Cheese Man in "Restless" = only the vampires are on the table.

I don't think there's enough to just blanketly assume Buffy *isn't* trying to get involved with Riley. Read the whole season in this context. Read her missing Sunnydale, the world before it changed, the muppety odin sex (vampires, right, sorry). The parallel use of Twilight having an "inside man", and Buffy having an "inside man". Same guy? If so, wouldn't that imply that Buffy and Riley talk enough for him to get intelligence out of her?

Now, the idea of Riley as triple agent is pretty interesting -- definitely calls back to how he fought through Walsh and then through Adam to stand by her in Season 4. But maybe this is part of what Buffy's dream in "Restless" is now meant to have been about? "See you 'round, killer." I'm glad Riley's back in the mix.

KingofCretins | November 26, 21:52 CET

Well, that went about as I expected.

I thought the death scene between Willow and Buffy played out too quickly. I would've liked to have seen a page or two of Buffy "Don't make me do this" and Willow "I have to; this is what must happen." Something along those lines. Instead, it was turn the page and BLAMO! That's a little too sudden given the complexities of the Buffy and Willow dynamic.

Now that Buffy's back in the present, what does she do? What should she do?

We've all read stories where the heroine knows something and should really tell the people she cares about, but like a fool, she doesn't. If I were to advise Buffy, I'd tell her to take Willow aside, share everything she saw and heard, no matter how painful, no matter how small. Trust her friend and try to figure a way for it not to happen. Perhaps she'd have to overcome Willow's objections to revealing the future.

So be it. This is important. They need to make the future right. They need to rebalance what has become unbalanced.

"Dark Gray" Willow had a reason for bringing Buffy forward. Present Willow and Buffy need to figure out what that was. If Buffy just keeps this all to herself, she will be making a very, very, very foolish mistake.

Buffy and Willow need to reconnect if they are going to stop Twilight. Otherwise, Twilight is gonna win, or Buffy is gonna do something stupid.

quantumac | November 26, 22:05 CET

Not gonna go round and round with you - again - King, except to say that I find it funny that once again you are missing the point. You claim a dream about B/A/S isn't at all significant and a dream about B/X is *totally significant* which is why I find it ironic. Not to mention the dream about B/A/S was only showcasing the sexuality, the B/X dream was about Buffy's fear of hurting people and darkness. Kind of a big difference, imo.

Now, moving on, having spoken to my friend who has a copy already, the only part we have discussing the Buffy/Riley interaction doesn't lead me to believe AT ALL that there is romantic angling or angst on Buffy's part. The only thing even said about it is that she dressed up for the meeting. Sorry guys, women don't always get dressed up for men. Sometimes we do it cause we just like to look pretty - for ourselves. So I see no evidence to support a longing on Buffy's part for Riley at this point and that does relieve me - and may relieve Enisy as well! ;)

Serves me right for relying on other's interpretations instead of waiting till I could see it myself. :)

[ edited by love4ba on 2008-11-26 22:08 ]

love4ba | November 26, 22:06 CET

She needed Buffy to be the one to kill her. Not clear why yet.

My take on this is that Willow had to live long enough to bring Buffy to the future, to show her the fall-out and then let her go back. That was her mission - to create the temporal fold and ensure that Fray's future *would* exist. That's why she lived on for over 200 years. To play her part in showing Buffy that the "'Fate of the world' made sense when there was only one". Which solves the troubling question of the time paradox. This temporal fold doesn't upset the future and the past, it is a part of how the future comes to be.

Time drudged on and Willow became weary, as immortals often do. The desire for rest grew and she wanted to die, but the only thing keeping her alive was Buffy's trip to the future. She held on, waiting. And eventually came the realization that after Buffy was sent back to the past, she (Willow) could finally be at peace. Lie down and die. The years also enlightened her to the fact that everyone dies, but the difference lies in *how* you die and *who* kills you. Willow lived for centuries to do this service for Buffy - it's only fair that in return, her best friend put her out of her misery.

J'adoube - I touch, I adjust. So Willow orchestrates her plan, manipulating Fray and Harth into a confrontation. Moving the players into place so that "Dark" Willow becomes a threat to Buffy. The intention was always to send Buffy back to the past after showing her the future. Willow just needed Buffy so pissed off that she'd kill "Dark" Willow before going back into the portal. And it worked. Mission accomplished, Willow. She sacrificed her life, sacrificed her time to be at peace, so that she could save the world and save the Slayer line - "She truly was the best of us".

Emmie | November 26, 22:11 CET

You can leave it alone, I won't -- you say the B/A/S dream means *everything* and the B/X means *nothing*, that's what's actually happening here, and so very very silly. Whereas I consider the fact that she got all sexy for Riley as having something to say about whether or not she's attracted to him, your analysis seems to stop completely at the "but he wasn't in the threesome dream, so she must not be interested in Riley" thing, as if that bars any explanation that has to do with her being attracted to him.

There's not another available interpretation about her clothing. Twice in 8.16 there was a textual point made about her dressing sexy and acting very secretive. It's not real life, it's a story. That means that very little if anything is happening just to happen. When Riley points out that she got all dressed up, that's plot significant. Three for three references to her clothing being deliberately sexy pretty much eliminates being able to retreat to "well, women don't always get dressed up for men". To do so basically says Joss was just wasting the dialogue space to talk about her clothing for no reason.

[ edited by KingofCretins on 2008-11-26 22:12 ]

KingofCretins | November 26, 22:11 CET

Emmmie: that is a possible interpretation. But it is only an interpretation; facts are lacking. I simply do not understand what any of this means, and I am not holding out much hope that I will within the next year or so.

Dana5140 | November 26, 22:19 CET

Dana, of course it's my reading and so it's my interpretation. I'd be happy to discuss and debate the finer points with you. I feel there are facts that substantiate it, but again it's based on a reader's perspective. There's always room for slight deviations, although I feel the greater story has been made clear for the arc.

Emmie | November 26, 22:25 CET

I read the issue, and I think it's a big leap from "she even got dressed up" to "she wants to reignite the relationship". It seemed to me more like she did it out of nostalgia ("She's so stuck in the past, man...")

And I get the impression that FDW had Buffy kill her in order to make her realize how important Willow is to her -- possibly because their friendship (or potential lack thereof) is what shapes the future.

The issue didn't resonate with me as much as the previous Time of Your Life issues, and the Xander-Dawn scenes were insipid filler, but we got some good out of it, too. (Not least that Fray's future is not delegated to an AU.)

[ edited by Enisy on 2008-11-26 22:30 ]

Enisy | November 26, 22:29 CET

I read the issue, and I think it's a big leap from "she even got dressed up" to "she wants to reignite the relationship". It seemed to me more like she did it out of nostalgia ("She's so stuck in the past, man...")

Yup, yup, yup.

Getting dressed up does NOT equate to = she must want to get together with him.

And no, King, I never said that. YOU did. You constantly downplay the B/A/S dream as meaning NOTHING and play UP the B/X dream as being everything. So now you're just projecting - again. ;) TTFN.

[ edited by love4ba on 2008-11-26 22:37 ]

love4ba | November 26, 22:36 CET

I'm not the one writing the thing. I said "apparently" because that is the most reasonable inference based on her very secretive behavior (getting information from Riley is an embarrassing secret, why, exactly? Will anyone try to explain why she'd be shy or awkward about it being only that?), her well-established sense of nostalgia, Twilight's own mocking about her mopiness, her speech about her romantic history, the repeated references to how she dressed and how she behaved, the slow year. Blame the guy who made it the reasonable thing to presume, not me for presuming it.

I actually thought the Xander-Dawn stuff was charming, their dialogue. And it was worth doing to see Rowena grow up -- nice little arc for her from 8.15 until now.

You constantly downplay the B/A/S dream as meaning NOTHING and play UP the B/X dream as being everything

Except for how that didn't happen in any coherent interpretation of the English language. Go back and check who brought up that dream again. Check out who is using that dream as a way to conclude what we can make of Buffy and Riley this season and who isn't.

And thanks for the complete non-answer to why Joss is, as you apparently believe, spending time in several issues having characters talk about how sexy Buffy is dressing *for no reason whatsoever*. Because that's great writing, having four or five or six characters talk about Buffy's sexy clothes and her secretiveness over a few issues for it be completely irrelevant to the story line.

[ edited by KingofCretins on 2008-11-26 22:43 ]

[ edited by KingofCretins on 2008-11-26 22:46 ]

KingofCretins | November 26, 22:40 CET

Hey, ratchet the tension down, okay? It's holiday time! A happy time. Mmmmmm, pork, a magical food! Or was that turkey?

Emmie: I would love to hear your thoughts. I have not been able to read this issue yet, so I am only responding to what I read here, but I am truly open to figuring out how to interpret the ending and what it means.

Dana5140 | November 26, 23:02 CET

Blame the guy who made it the reasonable thing to presume, not me for presuming it.

You're really taking this personally, but I never blamed you for presuming whatever you want to. I said I should have waited till I could read it for myself and developed my own perceptions, rather than relying on someone else's and getting prematurely bothered by it. I hardly think coming to that realization is a bad thing.

[ edited by love4ba on 2008-11-26 23:03 ]

love4ba | November 26, 23:02 CET

Buffy as the other woman? Hope not, altho if Smidge had been in H'wood in the studio days that's prob'ly how she'd've been typecast. Plus I liked Sam.

Riley as a true bad guy? Again, hope not, being as cornball as I am about national defense church-going and neat stuff like that, plus liking him personally.

Killing futurewillow? I agree, let's wait to see why ahd to happen.

Ethana s Twilight fakign own death? We'll see, and I don't like Ethan, I'd like him to croak,b ut again Joss is leaving us no room for anyone to be "pretty much evil" instead of a flat-out villain.

DaddyCatALSO | November 26, 23:08 CET

Well I loved this issue, but then I wasn't expecting big answers to anything (we still have a long way to go before the end of the season!). Buffy getting dressed up for Riley made perfect sense to me, not that she wanted to to get back together or even that she wanted to use feminine wiles... but just that she needed to forever erase the humiliation of having him see her in the Double Meat Palace uniform! No woman wants to have her ex see her at her worst!

As far as Riley going evil: I don't think that necessarily follows at all. Riley could genuinely think/believe that it is Buffy who is misguided and that magic has taken over, AND that Buffy breaking the law (committing robberies) is clear proof that she needs to be stopped. He could be convinced that he is the hero and she is the one who has gone evil! Good and bad are often just perspective (although Warren and Amy are clearly evil! LOL).

I'm relieved that Warren and Amy hadn't done more damage, because clearly Xander had been assuming the worst.

I am very interested/intrigued by the whole 'nothing changed' in Fray's world. I've read theories that the future is set and hard to change, but I would be very surprised that that is a theory Joss buys into. So clearly all of Willow's interference didn't make much of a difference, yet. Will Buffy tell Willow about her bad self in 200 years (does Willow already know all about it?)? I should reread because I'm not sure I remember every word leading up to this issue.

embers | November 26, 23:10 CET

I am trying to watch Heroes in peace. I am not best pleased at people sniping at each other. So if y'all want to get back to talking about the issue it would be greatly appreciated.

Simon | November 26, 23:10 CET

I agree. This is a happy time. The season is all about peace, love… ramming an ancient battle-axe through your best friend's chest. You know, family values. :)

quantumac | November 26, 23:24 CET

Buffy as the other woman? Hope not, altho if Smidge had been in H'wood in the studio days that's prob'ly how she'd've been typecast. Plus I liked Sam.

Riley as a true bad guy? Again, hope not, being as cornball as I am about national defense church-going and neat stuff like that, plus liking him personally.

Your hopes echo mine! I am ... intrigued by the idea of Ethan as the bad guy, but wonder what motive he could have for wanting an end to all magic - he was pretty deep into it. But I've always loved his character, would love to see more of him in the comic.

love4ba | November 26, 23:31 CET

Okay, so my copy hasn't arrived yet, so I probably should wait to say anything. But while it does seem to me that dressing up for Riley could mean a number of different things, it is exactly what I would expect her to do, regardless.

Because last she saw him, she felt such a fool, not only because she had a chicken on her head and the DMP uniform, but because her life was such a mess. Naturally she wants to look attractive, together, and on top of things-to make a better impression all around, self-respect-wise, if for no other reason. And certainly being gorgeous has always been a factor in Ms.Summer's self-esteem package.

[ edited by toast on 2008-11-26 23:47 ]

toast | November 26, 23:44 CET

Dana, I'll try my best to describe my thoughts and how I came to this conclusion.

The temporal anomaly doesn't create a time paradox, but rather fulfills it's purpose in keeping the timeline on track. Future Willow is responsible for the temporal anomaly, which brings Buffy to the future and Present Willow brings her back. Future Willow already has memories of this temporal anomaly, it *already* happened in her past. She already knows that Buffy will return to the present because it has already happened just as both Future and Present Willow know that Willow is the one responsible for bringing her forward.

Willow doesn't want Buffy dead. She shows Melaka a vision that makes it seem like Buffy needs to die, then in this issue Willow reveals that she's "lying to someone. Would [Fray] bet her whole world" and let Buffy go back into the past, perhaps ending Fray's existence. This is the threat Willow uses to cause Fray to attack Buffy. Yet we learn that Buffy goes back to the past and Fray's world continues to exist. This shows Willow was lying to Melaka - Buffy's return to the present doesn't end Fray's existence and future.

Willow creates a situation that puts Buffy in slay mode. Willow lies to both Fray and Harth, manipulating them into an over-wraught situation - both Fray and Harth are attempting to attack, even kill, Buffy.

Willow stands in Buffy's path through the portal, forcing Buffy to attack her. Yet Willow makes no attempt to defend herself, merely lowers her head sadly and says "It's a long story." She stands there meekly and accepts Buffy's attack. The close-up panel of her eyes after Buffy stabs her with the scythe shows no surprise. She was *expecting* this to happen, anticipating it.

Saga Vasuki demanded that Present Willow promise to not look when she goes to bring Buffy back through the portal. The end result is that Present Willow doesn't see her future self dying. Vasuki was contacted by a "someone [she] trust[s]" and this is how she knows the portal will reopen by itself. I believe this "someone" was Future Willow and Vasuki asks Present Willow not to look because she knows that Future Willow is planning to have Buffy kill her.

It really all boils down to two main points for me. Willow planned this for centuries, carefully and methodically. The end result is two-fold:

1) Buffy returns to the present without destroying Fray's existence.

2) Future Willow is killed by Buffy.

If all Future Willow wanted was to show Buffy the future, enlighten her and then send her on her merry way, there would be no need to involve Fray and Harth. No need for the elaborate lies and manipulation. The result of this manipulation is that it puts Buffy on her guard, makes her believe that she has to fight her way back "to save [her own world]." Willow's plan brings Buffy to the future and allows her to get back home, but it also manipulates everyone so that Buffy will kill Willow.

[ edited by Emmie on 2008-11-27 00:05 ]

Emmie | November 26, 23:52 CET

Well...now I'm officially confused. The whole arc makes no sense to me. What was the purpose of it all?

[ edited by menomegirl on 2008-11-27 00:13 ]

menomegirl | November 27, 00:09 CET

Okay, so my copy hasn't arrived yet, so I probably should wait to say anything. But while it does seem to me that dressing up for Riley could mean a number of different things, it is exactly what I would expect her to do, regardless.

Because last she saw him, she felt such a fool, not only because she had a chicken on her head and the DMP uniform, but because her life was such a mess. Naturally she wants to look attractive, together, and on top of things-to make a better impression all around, self-respect-wise, if for no other reason. And certainly being gorgeous has always been a factor in Ms.Summer's self-esteem package.

Nice reasoning and I absolutely agree. Makes sense to me.

love4ba | November 27, 00:13 CET

I liked the issue.

I don't understand it. At least yet.

And that's all for now.

WilliamTheB | November 27, 00:18 CET

I think the purpose was to validate Fray's existence and show that while that future is dark, the "fate of the world - made sense when there was only one" - I think this is a play on words meaning that it made sense when there was only one world to save, but that it also made sense when there was only one *slayer* to fight the forces of darkness. Buffy hasn't had her epiphany yet that so many slayers without proper guidance are a bad thing (i.e. Simone, Gigi), but future solicitations show that it's only going to get worse for the slayers (issues 21 thru 25). While Buffy isn't completely enlightened by her trip to the future, I think we the reader are supposed to begin to understand that it's leading towards taking the line back to one girl. That the events of Chosen and the consequences of the Slayer Spell have to be dealt with.

This arc actually accomplished what everyone was puzzling over - was Fray's future going to be erased? It shows us how Joss will presumably reconcile the events of Chosen with Fray's future world. I'm predicting the Slayer Spell will be reversed somehow (or at least the slayers will be reduced back to one girl, maybe two...) and this will reconcile the present with the future.

Emmie | November 27, 00:22 CET

Buffy wanting to make a show of herself because of "Doublemeat Palace" (which is pretty tenuous, since she undressed in the same truck as him minutes later) doesn't address the other extremely relevant part of the meeting. She kept it secret. How she dressed and that she kept it secret were the two important facts that we had pointed out more than once about the meeting. Romantic interest in or possible involvement with Riley, married or not married, is an explanation. Getting all dressed up because she's embarrassed about having been seen at work three years earlier and meeting Riley just to get information about the military... kept secret? Why? Explain.

If it's just for information, there's no reason to keep it secret. Willow *likes* Riley. Xander *likes* Riley.

KingofCretins | November 27, 00:41 CET

I simply do not understand what any of this means, and I am not holding out much hope that I will within the next year or so.

You haven't even read the issue!

Friendly note to people who insist on taking part in discussions of books they haven't read: Don't do that! For your sake and everyone else's.

Jeeeeeesus.

waxbanks | November 27, 00:47 CET

Btw, how BEAUTIFUL is that one close-up panel of Fray's face as she says "'Fate of the world. Made sense...when there was only one."

I loved how the Buffy/Fray fight played out. How Fray was stronger because it was her turf and her belief in what she was fighting for, but Buffy has the slayer line and the connection making Fray ulitmately "outnumbered". Loved how Buffy uses her ingenuity in fighting to slice open the water tower and take down Fray. That's classic fighting for the Buffster, making the most of her surroundings.

Emmie | November 27, 01:06 CET

Emmie, I'm really digging your interpretation. I think that's very possible.

I also think that it's possible that Gray Willow goaded Buffy into killing her as a punishment. It's possible that Willow killed Buffy and/or brought about the end of the Slayers that we saw in the original Fray run. This either trapped Willow in Fray land or just gave her immortality as a punishment that only Buffy could break. The simple fact that a Fray-verse Buffy is not around to give Gray Willow her comeuppance indicates that no form of Buffy is hanging around that universe. Then to me it makes sense that Gray Willow would force Buffy to kill/punish her for the sins that she perpetrated against Buffy. And she would have to bring a Buffy from another time to do this.

So much to think about! :)

A note - Georges Jeanty didn't draw this issue - Karl Moline did. :)

peepstone | November 27, 01:36 CET

This was my favourite book in S8 yet. That ending is exactly the sort of Big Love and Pain that makes BtVS stand out from other story universes that won't take such risks. And, as it usually does, it really paid off. I am now champing at the bit to find out what FDW's 'long story' is, among other things.

I've been kind of ambivalent about S8 at times. I mean, I like it, but it's not always had me fully engaged. It does now. #19 was pure awesome.

Vague That Up | November 27, 01:45 CET

peepstone, cool idea. I like the thought that Willow had Buffy kill her as a way of balancing the scales. Perhaps it's a bit of both - Willow's tired of living and she wants to right a past wrong by having Buffy kill her.

Emmie | November 27, 02:02 CET

A note - Georges Jeanty didn't draw this issue - Karl Moline did. :)

Of course he did, and now I just feel ridiculous for forgetting. Fray=Karl Moline, I know that.

So let me amend my earlier comment. Kudos to Karl Moline for that panel that I liked.

Jobo | November 27, 02:08 CET

The thing that gets me is the panels of Future Willow's death go out of their way to accentuate the fact that it's the scythe that kills her. We already see that in the long shot, but they specifically include a close-up panel of it, which is preceded by the big booming magic lightning strike.

I think the method of the death -- the scythe which Willow used to activate all the potentials being used to kill Future Willow in a world without magic -- is going to be important, if not necessarily for Buffy: Season 8, then for future Fray stories.

[ edited by The One True b!X on 2008-11-27 02:53 ]

The One True b!X | November 27, 02:52 CET

Wow. Riley Finn is double-crossing somebody in a very "I'm gonna get myself fatally stabbed" way. I am very impressed. I never would have thought he had that kind of subterfuge in him. Good or evil, he just got a lot more interesting.

I love the expression on Xander's face when he realizes the squad he's been worrying about is all trained up and saving the day now. That was a great moment and I wish it'd gotten a bigger panel with more detail. Liked the dorktastic acorn helmet-- Xander's power is still a somewhat dorky power. The fantastical forest army was too much though.

ETA: Buffy broke the future scythe with her arm. That was badass.

[ edited by Sunfire on 2008-11-27 03:00 ]

Sunfire | November 27, 02:56 CET

I think the method of the death -- the scythe which Willow used to activate all the potentials being used to kill Future Willow in a world without magic -- is going to be important, if not necessarily for Buffy: Season 8, then for future Fray stories.

Hmm. Now see, that makes this issue a little easier to understand. It makes the arc seem less pointless, I think.

[ edited by menomegirl on 2008-11-27 03:08 ]

menomegirl | November 27, 03:06 CET

I'm going to second Emmie's analysis; it was great stuff, thanks Emmie.

Also, Bix said what I was going to say just now. The scythe was critical to the death of Willow, but I'd also connect the dots and say that Buffy herself is also the needed element, because if all Willow had to do was die by the scythe, she could've provoked Fray into doing it easily enough. Willow needed Buffy to see the future (that she failed) and to kill her. Perhaps Buffy's breaking of the Slayer line by dying and being revived in season one caused everything else to spiral out of control, leading up to the ultimate break by Willow with the Slayer spell in the end of season seven. Maybe an upcoming spell by Willow binds her with Buffy.

We now know that Buffy will fail to bring about the better world that she dreamed of and Fray's future will happen. It's just a matter of what happens along the way now.

archon | November 27, 03:37 CET

I'm still trying to figure out what all this means but I liked it. Dk Willow's plan to force Buffy to kill her worked. Not sure why though. This series is turning into "Lost". More questions asked with every question answered. I LOVE Lost!

Still can't stand Kennedy, I'd like to see Tara or Oz show up and send Kennedy packing. (wishful thinking)

What we learned from this arc;

More than one World. Many realities.
History isn't written as Buffy remembers it, so for some reason it has been changed. Kinda mirrors all the talk in ATS of Spike not being in the History books. (Unless both gangs really are IN alternate dimensions.)
Riley or Riley bot is on the scene.
Willow had a story that we will never get to hear.
Buffy doesn't care about the future (I don't care about this World)

Wouldn't it be bizarre if everyone surrounding Buffy, minus Dawn, is a bot? Everyone is acting pretty odd. Warren was the bot master. Maybe they are trying to drive Buffy insane. LOL
No way Riley is working against Buffy. Unless we're in an alternate reality where the real Riley is residing somewhere else. Doesn't make a lot of sense otherwise. Looking forward to finding all the answers.

cheryl | November 27, 03:42 CET

We now know that Buffy will fail to bring about the better world that she dreamed of and Fray's future will happen. It's just a matter of what happens along the way now.

Buffy's goal has always been to preserve the world against the bad that threatens to destroy it (apocalypses) and the bad that currently feeds on it (vampires etc). Perhaps she succeeds at both in her own time, and the outcome is a series of events that lead to Fray's time. Or maybe time's not linear in the Buffyverse.

Sunfire | November 27, 03:43 CET

Ugh. As much as I love Fray, I don't like that it continues to exist after Buffy goes back. Having Buffy fail to make the world the better place it should be is just to pessimistic. For all the bad stuff that happened in the series, it was always an optimistic show. I cannot believe that Joss would completely reverse on the message of "Chosen," and hope that we are misunderstanding.

I still don't understand why Willow bothered with Harth at all. He didn't DO anything! I simply don't understand.

Giles_314 | November 27, 04:56 CET

Giles_314, I think the reason why the future is a dismal place has nothing to do with slayers and demons. From my understanding, Fray's world is a dark place because of radiation, pollution and humanity crapping on the planet. It's actually a sad commentary - Buffy saved the world, even died for it, but the gift hasn't been appreciated by the majority of humanity.

About reversing the message, yeah it is sad but I think it's the natural progression of the story - exploring if the Slayer Spell was a good decision. The way the action in Chosen is being viewed is quite interesting to me because while Buffy did give those potentials a choice to be strong, to be slayers, she forced it on nearly 1800 other girls. That wasn't choice. I think the message has actually become more complex. Sharing power is good, go female power! But power can be abused and misused. It's a classic thematic exploration, the misuse of power. I think it's fair to explore it - just because it's female empowerment shouldn't make it immune from all the potential corruption that comes with great power.

As for Harth, you raise a good point. The biggest function Harth seemed to serve was to make Willow appear bad by association. Perhaps he was also useful in Willow's plan to arrange all the players on the board.

Emmie | November 27, 05:14 CET

I don't know. It's hard to wrap my mind around. I don't want such a powerful thing as the ending of "Chosen" to be warped and proven wrong, but I also understand that Buffy forced responsibility on all those girls, and that power can and does corrupt. Maybe those two ideas can somehow coexist? I don't know. It does seem that those people who don't get corrupted by power are those who never want it. Ugh. My mind is a jumble. I'm trying to comprehend the theme of this season, or even this arc, but my brain can't piece it together. I think it has something to do with the big picture vs. small details, but I just can't get a handle on it.

In the end though, I trust that Joss knows exactly what he wants to say with this season, and that I probably won't know what it is until it is all said and done.

Giles_314 | November 27, 05:23 CET

I rather like the idea that Buffy learns she can share power with people who aren't only slayers. Because the 'slayers are my only concern' mentality she has now is slightly worrisome as it inspires her morally dangerous 'big picture' mentality. That it's not about sharing power only with potentials (who we have no idea how they're chosen anyways...) but rather fully trusting her allies and reinforcing her connection to humanity. Her connection to the slayer line shouldn't be her paramount concern IMO and right now, it clearly is.

When Buffy said she had to save her world, I got the feeling she meant she had to save her Slayer army. That has become her world right now and it's a very limited outlook.

[ edited by Emmie on 2008-11-27 05:37 ]

Emmie | November 27, 05:36 CET

Oooh, the "long story" got me. My theory is that this may have something to do with Willow's work with Vasuki or some curse-like thing--I wonder if Buffy is literally, the only--the chosen one who can kill her(and that this whole shebang happened so FDW can actually die).

This added extra poignancy to the nose part--I got the whole memory being fuzzy after a couple hundred years.
As for the inside man--oooh. To be honest, I have never cared for Riley, but that was still a gut punch (and made her dressing up extra sad--and I don't think that means she wants anything, just that she wants to look nice and this appears to be the first time she has gotten to go out in, well, a looong time.) I had been entertaining thoughts that Riley was Twilight, but I guess that's not it.
(Although this explains a lot about Twilight's emotional ideas about Buffy--and I've always seen Riley's story as about being unable to fit into a world of fluid boundaries and in my interpretation, finding that it is too hard and coping by going back to a dualistic interpretation because it is more comfortable and a way of coping--a sort of the road to hell being paved with good intentions. I think this is going to be Twilight's big tragedy, hinted at with Riley.)
Also, I appreciated that Willow was practical and wore a blindfold. Likewise with the "almost there"panel--Willow seems to have gotten her eros onto her thanatos or vice versa. Wow.

So, lots to chew on and think about. I am curious and I want to see more.

[ edited by JessicaMelusine on 2008-11-27 05:39 ]

JessicaMelusine | November 27, 05:39 CET

I think she probably feels responsible for all the slayers because she is responsible for them. She created them. But I agree, maybe she is not connecting to humanity enough, and soon will consider herself superior to those she protects. Maybe she already is. Jonathon Woodward's (don't remember the character name at the moment) analysis in Conversations with Dead People comes to mind.

Giles_314 | November 27, 05:44 CET

Will it all make sense when Joss finally lets us in on where he's going? Willow went to elaborate means to arrange all this. Why include Harth? Why include Fray? If she just wanted Buffy to kill her, she could've done that all by herself. Bring Buffy forward, goad Buffy into doing what a slayer must, the end.

Methinks (mehopes) we are seeing only a small part of a grand overall arc.

quantumac | November 27, 05:50 CET

Oh absolutely. I hope something I wrote didn't imply she shouldn't feel responsible for them, but rather it seems to be all she can focus on right now. Yes, Holden Webster's "superiority complex" except maybe she's losing the inferiority complex about it. Which would be...not good.

Emmie | November 27, 05:54 CET

I suppose that relates back to what Twilight and Specifically General Voll was saying way back in issue 4. Hmmm. Methinks I is starting to see some connections.

Giles_314 | November 27, 06:02 CET

Yes, yes. The Long Way Home lays out a lot of the themes. It's the unsung arc that really shows where the road is headed.

Emmie | November 27, 06:03 CET

Hmm, bit disappointed really.

Let Down | November 27, 06:50 CET

Your reaction kinda fits your user-name. ;)

Emmie | November 27, 07:13 CET

Xander in the jumbo-sized acorn helmet made me laugh so hard. I was like "WTF is on his head... *dies*" Oh, man. I love this book.

dingoes8 | November 27, 07:35 CET

"Your reaction kinda fits your user-name. ;) "

Maybe if I change my user name to 'This is so much better than I expected' I'll love the issue. Actually, I just reread it and liked it more

Let Down | November 27, 07:42 CET

Glad you liked it more the second time around.

Emmie | November 27, 07:51 CET

Friendly note to people who insist on taking part in discussions of books they haven't read: Don't do that!

Don't tell fellow posters that they shouldn't take part in a discussion, it is a bit rude.

Simon | November 27, 08:19 CET

It's really not exactly like taking part in a discussion of a book you haven't read, anyway. Folks have read many, many chapters, are invested, and are waiting impatiently to get their hands on the most recent chapter. A little different. Still, obviously, limiting, but a bit different.

[ edited by toast on 2008-11-27 13:45 ]

toast | November 27, 13:43 CET

Thank, Emmie- that makes a lot of sense. You offer a cogent analysis.

Waxbanks- I admitted I have not read this yet. By the time I get the issue, this thread will long past be history, so I have to jump in now while I can and attempt my best to understand what it all means.

It's turkey!

[ edited by Dana5140 on 2008-11-27 14:15 ]

[ edited by Dana5140 on 2008-11-27 14:16 ]

Dana5140 | November 27, 14:15 CET

My brain is all confused. Darn you, Evil Riley.

Craig Oxbrow | November 27, 19:00 CET

Mmph. As usual, I suck at recognising characters in comics and so had to wait until I came back here to work out it was Riley. I can honestly say I coudn't care two hoots what he's doing...

As to the rest - it may get better when we get more explanation of what FDW wanted, but for now by reaction is definitely a bit meh. The only thing I can think is that FDW wants Buffy and Willow separate or at least a little odd in their relationship, but why is very far from clear. I think I would like it if FDW turned out to be good and is actually trying to help Buffy this way somehow? Or if in FDW's past, the 'extraction attempt' actually failed? Oh ugh... this is why I hate time travel. Everything always ends up all loopy and illogical. Buffy can't change the future now because her past is influenced by it so... oh whatever. I have little doubt that this kind of thing will be happily glossed over as it always is in any story.

skittledog | November 27, 19:33 CET

Buffy killing someone she loves in front of a portal for the greater good? Very thematically significant in her life (hello Season 2!). I loved this issue so much!!

I was never a big Riley fan, especially before he went semi-dark with vampire prostitutes, but the reveal this issue totally makes sense to me. He was always goody-two-shoes when it came to the government; even when he found out about the Initiative, he was still pro "mainstream" government. But then again, maybe he's just playing Twilight in order to help the Scoobies.

Buffy the Slayer Layer | November 27, 19:36 CET

Well, Scott Allie just said this in interview:

"14. amuk: Terrific issue ending a great arc. I can hardly wait to find out what Future Dark(ish) Willow's "long story" is - not to mention whatever she showed Fray to enlist her help in trapping Buffy. So my question is, will we eventually get all that backstory?

Scott Allie: I doubt you'll see all your questions answered regarding their futures. Some more will be revealed, but do not expect a big fill-in-the-blanks issue."

Well.

Dana5140 | November 27, 19:43 CET

I'm not going to lie. This time travel arc has seriously confused me, so now I'm trying to wade through all these posts and see if there's some sort of mage who can make sense of it all!

Riker | November 27, 19:43 CET

What confused you, Riker? Maybe people with questions could ask them here and see what people think.

Sunfire | November 27, 19:44 CET

Throughout his time on the show Riley was always resentful of Buffy's power. He had trouble accepting that she was stronger than him. I think in Riley's mind Buffy emasculated him. It makes sense to me that he would turn on her. Especially with a few years perspective on their relationship.

On a lighter note, does this mean that we get 200 years worth of Willow comics?

twinkiefoo | November 27, 19:50 CET

I reckon we'll find out what Willow's long story is because I think it's tied up with the question of what happened to all of the slayers and how the future ended up like that. It seems that all Scott Allie was saying was that they're not going to fill in all the backstory. As for what FDW showed Fray - I don't think it really matters. The important thing is that Fray thought Buffy would destroy the world.

Actually, I think it's at least possible that Fray will crossover again at the end of the season.

Riley working for Twilight strikes me as implausible but I'm reserving judgement until we know more.

Let Down | November 27, 20:06 CET

OK so the heart of this story seems to lie with the complicated relationship between Buffy and Willow. Future Willow has outlived love, bent time and spun every side both ways and back to one end, her death at Buffy’s hands. But it sounds as if the point of their final conversation was the last question Buffy asks. As she says, cute blonde and popular but not stupid. She listens when Willow tells her exactly where to get to and when to get out but also to what she said earlier about who dies and who kills them. Melaka assumes she’s talking about Slayer-Slayercide but with “Why does it have to be me?” Buffy shows she understands that Willow needed her to kill Willow and then she gave her what she needed.

I really don’t know what the whole long story is going to be. Willow blindfolded herself so the one part of the exchange Future Willow couldn’t have known (and needn’t have happened for the extraction to go exactly as she remembered) is the death of her future self. So how might that change things, if things have changed. The only person it affects directly is Buffy. She killed Angel to save the world but first she asked him to close his eyes. This time both of them knew what was happening so is it this that changes Buffy or what Buffy knows about what Willow is prepared to do?

hayes62 | November 27, 21:12 CET

*yawn* this arc and its conclusion for me felt both forced and repetitive, zero answers as to why buffy needed to kill willow or maybe i'm missing them, still reading the posts i don't think anyone got the rationale after that. i hope the next arc is better, this had a lot of potential and was wasted. that's a shame :( this is turning into the dragging seasons of lost where there were no answers but a lot of questions, not liking that.

luis1210 | November 27, 21:16 CET

Throughout his time on the show Riley was always resentful of Buffy's power. He had trouble accepting that she was stronger than him.

This is basically the exact opposite of his arc on the show.

He was always more than comfortable with her power and fighting ability. This was even textualized pretty bluntly in "The Replacement" --

BUFFY: Riley, do you wish-
RILEY: No.
BUFFY: No? You don't even know what I was gonna say.
RILEY: Yes, I do. You wanted to know if I wished you got hit by the ferula-gemina, got split in two.
BUFFY: Well, you have been kind of rankly about the whole slayer gig. Instead of having slayer Buffy, you could have Buffy Buffy.
RILEY: Hey. I *have* Buffy Buffy. Being the slayer's part of who you are. You keep thinking I don't get that, but...
BUFFY: It's just ... I know how ... un-fun it can be. The bad hours, frequent bruising, cranky monsters...
RILEY: Buffy... if you led a perfectly normal life, you wouldn't be half as crazy as you are. I gotta have that. I gotta have it all. I'm talkin' toes, elbows, the whole bad-ice-skating-movie obsession, everything. There's no part of you I'm not in love with

I really defy you to point to a single moment in his run on the televised seasons that reveals anything more than mild chagrin at how strong Buffy is. Most of the time, he's just sort of amazed by it. When he came apart, it was because he felt purposeless and emotionally cut off from her (not the first nor the last to feel that way, incidentally). It had *absolutely nothing* to do with how much stronger she was than him.

And I don't buy how it would "make sense" that he would turn on her based just on their interactions. In Season 6, he embraced the awkward of taking his wife to see the ex because he thought Buffy could help. In Season 7, he trusted her judgment so implicitly he left the decision to *remove Spike's chip* to her.

I really only see a few possibilities here to explain what's happening with him.

1. He thinks Buffy's dangerous now, just like Twilight (apparently) does. The most popular explanation for this, from when we thought he might be Twilight, was that something happened to Sam -- she got killed by a Rogue Slayer, she became a Slayer and got killed, etc. She's dead and it's Buffy's fault because of the spell, basically.

2. He's been manipulated, controlled, or brainwashed -- this goes nicely with the theory that Ethan is alive and is Twilight (although probably not).

3. He's trying to do the triple agent thing and it will probably get him killed.

As to the possible rekindled romance, it's worth noting (and reassuring to the 'shippers) that it wouldn't mean that they had slept together, since Buffy would have noticed his Twilight symbol on his chest.

KingofCretins | November 27, 21:17 CET

What confused you, Riker? Maybe people with questions could ask them here and see what people think.

Well, for starters, why did Dark Willow want Buffy to kill her? Also, why did she want to stop Buffy from going back? I'm really confused as to what she wanted.

Riker | November 27, 21:21 CET

I don't think she did want to stop Buffy from going back -- like Buffy said, everything was set in motion to bring them to that point, where Buffy had to go through her to get back in time. Willow might have been teaching her something. Some have suggested that Willow was giving Buffy revenge for something Willow hadn't done yet but would do.

KingofCretins | November 27, 21:24 CET

Yeah, I don't think she ever wanted to stop Buffy from going back. As Buffy points out, Future Willow very clearly spelled out exactly what Buffy needed to do to get back. As far as we know Future Willow brought Buffy to the future, made sure she met Fray, set things up so that Buffy and Fray would fight, and then made sure Buffy would kill Future Willow in order to leave. We don't know why she wanted Buffy to kill her or what the larger purpose was to the time-traveling. She seemed sad and resigned to it, and very unlike Season 6 Dark Willow. There didn't seem to be any vengeance involved, just some kind of necessity we don't understand yet.

Sunfire | November 27, 21:30 CET

Hmm. Thanks for the insight, KoC and Sunfire. I have a feeling that this will all come back into play in the future (OUR future!) in an expected and Jossian way.

Riker | November 27, 21:40 CET

She killed Angel to save the world but first she asked him to close his eyes.

I see the difference more as being that Angel, later, knew what she had done and why, and Buffy could kind of exorcise her guilt just by being accepted by him. That's not going to work with Willow - I see the situation here as being a bit more akin to Angel knowing everything about Connor and Wes' betrayal when they themselves didn't. I got the feeling that that ate away at him from the inside quite a lot, and although Buffy is strong and didn't seem to hesitate about killing Future Willow here, I can't help but think it's going to affect their relationship. Probably, not for the better.

skittledog | November 27, 22:02 CET

I was just watching Joss' interview from the Write Environment and Joss said that BtVS Season 8 would be a 40 issue arc! Is that still the case? If so then it is clear that we still have a long way to go before we get any answers to anything! I think there is a value in keeping an open mind to where the story is going, since it is still just building and not close to resolving yet.

embers | November 27, 22:20 CET

Oh, KingofCretins, I thought that of Ethan at the end as well. I would love to see Ethan’s silly quick death washed away, but! Big but. He helped Buffy. So, no go on him being Twilight. Why would he give her the heads up when he is in fact is Twilight? Nope. The pondering on who the flying man is will continue.

Riley on the other hand, I was 97% sure was the person Buffy was dressed up to meet. It just fit that she would meet someone who had an ins with the Initiative to get info– and the dressing up, well, Buffy has to!

I love that the monkey was seemingly the only ‘person’ on Buffy’s side, hee.

Mirage | November 27, 22:20 CET

Can we summarize what this arc brought to the greater narrative of Season 8?

We have connected the Buffy part of the 'Verse to the Fray part, and therefore know that all Slayers will go bye-bye. The new big question is, why? We know that Buffy knows this will happen. We know that whatever it is, Willow will survive it, and Buffy knows this, too. Dawn has transformed again and Scotland is suddenly full of fairy-tale creatures. Willow has a secret demon lover and might be cheating on Kennedy with her. Riley has entered the game, probably as a bad guy.

Given this took four issues (and weeks and weeks of real time), I don't feel that we have advanced the main plot that much. Worse, we've added all kinds of new stuff that needs to be pushed on the stack and remembered while adding even more characters. I'm starting to fear that Season 8 is turning into the Whedon variant of Lost with Treebeard as a special guest star.

To be fair, the only time travel story I have ever liked was Heinlein's "By His Bootstraps" and this is not my favorite artist, so this was always going to be a hard sell. Still, IMHO, this was the weakest arc of the season so far.

scotws | November 27, 22:42 CET

I'd be perfectly happy if Season 8 were the Whedon variant of Lost. (Not necessarily any more happy than I'd be if it weren't. I'm just saying all these Lost comparisons just end up in the plus column for me.)

[ edited by The One True b!X on 2008-11-27 22:44 ]

The One True b!X | November 27, 22:43 CET

scotws - I think the most important occurrence of the arc was Buffy witnessing this future and that this will shake her confidence. That her internal shift will be the most significant plot development and she'll further begin to question if she is right to have "changed the world" by activating all the potentials. I'm assuming this introspection will go even further as Buffy goes through another journey in After These Messages... First she physically goes to the future, then she somehow experiences her past life from Season 1 (with her season 8 mind in her season 1 bod). Which connects to Twilight saying the way to defeat Buffy is to shake her moral certainty. I think it's safe to now consider Buffy shaken, not stirred.

Ironically, I think it was the point that Buffy going to the future did *not* change the future or the past, but rather reaffirmed that all these events fit together like complex puzzle pieces. The events of the past and future resonating within Buffy to create the present of Season 8 and what will occur after ToYL. That her changing perspective on Chosen and all the slayers will be central to the forward momentum of Season 8.

ETA Invisible Text.

[ edited by Emmie on 2008-11-27 23:03 ]

Emmie | November 27, 23:00 CET

Add me to those that are disappointed with this issue. I don't mind some questions being left unanswered, but this arc created a pile of questions and barely answered any. I was assuming we'd find out some of the why and how of FDW and maybe even how magic found it's way back into Fray's time, but no. Obviously, it will tie in to the overall arc and parts of it will be important, but being kept so much in the dark is frustrating.

Buffy just killed Willow, which is huge, but it didn't move me at all. Partly this is due to the mess that time-travel creates, but it's also because we really have no idea what's going on with FDW. The circumstances didn't help either - Buffy could have knocked FDW out of the way and jumped through the portal. Why unnecessarily kill your best friend? Buffy doesn't know what FDW is up to either and can hardly have decided that she was irredeemable in such a short time.

The position we were in before this arc was that at some point soon-ish we'd have the death of magic and then a couple of hundred years later, Fray's world. And after this arc, which was driven by FDW's actions, we're . . . in exactly the same position. Except that we know Willow's future is to live a long time and then get killed by Buffy.

Personally, I hope none of that is right. I was expecting Fray's world to fade out in the last page - not to necessarily indicate the end of that world (I'd love to see another separate Fray comic), but that there was some change and therefore the future is not set. At present it looks like FDW might have been telling the truth to Harth in that Buffy's time in the future makes that future certain and Willow's fate will be as shown, but I just can't believe it.

My theory as I was reading was that FDW wanted Buffy to be appalled by this future, which had been caused by the death of magic, so that Buffy would continue to fight against Twilight and protect magic. Twilight's methods might be pretty nasty, but his goal is actually a pretty good idea for mankind in general - no vampires, demons, apocalypses, etc. I can see Buffy being persuaded by this big picture, but less so magical Willow, particularly if she's goes a bit Dark. It makes more sense to me that FDW would try to destroy that future in favour of one with magic (but she appears to have failed). If she really is still one of the good guys, why is she enjoying the fight between Buffy and Fray so very much? In fact, why set Fray on Buffy at all - Fray might have killed Buffy (or at least stopped her getting to the portal on time).

Well done if you got through all that ;). Bit of a ramble I know, sorry if I repeated other posters' points - sort of working it through for myself. Even though I found this issue disappointing, I'm still fascinated by the season's arc.

Also, though it played into Dawn being a centaur, I agree that Amy's magical monsters and the forest creatures were lame. And Riley doesn't excite me even if he is double-crossing Buffy to work for Twilight, but at least he's not Twilight. I've been thinking about Ethan Rayne during my recent read-through of S8. The way he was introduced, helped Buffy and was then apparently killed off was very odd and I think it's possible he's Twilight, but I can't reconcile his worshipping of chaos and Twilight's objective.

[ edited by NotaViking on 2008-11-28 00:00 ]

NotaViking | November 27, 23:14 CET

I really hope that Joss isn't going to do the very lame thing and have Buffy's trip to the future only serve to set itself up to repeat over and over. That the "extraction attempt" Future Willow remembered wasn't her, blindfolded, pulling Buffy out after she had just killed Future Willow. Way too fatalistic.

I'm no going to guess that the events of 8.20 will be something Buffy asks Willow to do, because she's now convinced that the answers to what happened between her and Willow and to everything Robin showed them lie in understanding her past.

Buffy's moral certainty is totally out the window, I'd say -- she even concedes it's Fray's advantage, that she knows what she's fighting for. Buffy doesn't. To echo her mother in a different context, she is just reacting to things. Or, as Giles said much more optimistically, she's feeling her way.

KingofCretins | November 27, 23:21 CET

Can someone clear this up for me ... I thought Jeff Loeb's story would be a one-shot but the bit at the end of this issue says 'After these adverts ... Part 1'. Is it a whole arc? Or is it part of the 5 small stories and collectively they're called 'After these adverts'?

Let Down | November 27, 23:37 CET

Allie said it was a misprint -- 8.20 is "After These Messages, We'll Be Right Back..."

8.21 is "Harmonic Divergence".

8.23, I think, is called "Predators and Prey". Not sure about 8.22, 8.24, and 8.25.

KingofCretins | November 27, 23:42 CET

"Riley or Riley bot is on the scene".

That made me laugh...and then I thought, actually... not so silly; Warren had just made a joke about making a new robot girlfriend just before 'double-crossing' Riley was revealled. hmmmm

tranquillity | November 27, 23:43 CET

It's possible but I think it would be pretty lame storytelling to have it be a Rileybot. What would be the emotional punch of that?

Let Down | November 27, 23:46 CET

I see the difference more as being that Angel, later, knew what she had done and why, and Buffy could kind of exorcise her guilt just by being accepted by him.

There was a period before he came back when she couldn't do that and had all those dreams about him blaming her for sending him to hell even though she knew why she had to do it. Here is that she knows Willow accepted what she had to do but she herself doesn't know why. There are similarities with Angel's S5 relationship to Wesley but again differences as Buffy doesn't know the long story of Willow. So it's complicated but in a novel way and I have no idea how Buffy is going to react, which is exactly what makes it compelling.

hayes62 | November 27, 23:46 CET

There are certain things that simply have not been explained yet, so naturally they might confuse a person or leave them with questions. How is this a bad thing?

I wasn't really participating in online discussion when the show was on the air, but were people doing the same thing about mysterious stuff then? "I don't know what's going on with Ben, so I don't like this season." "What's all this 'From Beneath You, It Devours' stuff? I don't like this season." All will be answered in good time.

RE: Twilight and Ethan... I've been saying that from the beginning. From a writer's POV, if Joss was going to have Ethan be the mystery big bad, he would HAVE to apparently kill him off quickly, otherwise he would be the obvious guess the whole time since he was the biggest loose end.

dingoes8 | November 27, 23:55 CET

King, I had the same thought about Issue 20. That it'll be a spell Willow does for Buffy so she can understand what happened in ToYL.

ETA: #22 is called Swell. No titles have been released yet for #24 written by Jim Krueger (a well-known and critically acclaimed comic writer) and #25 written by Doug Petrie (who was specifically chosen for the Dawn/Xander arc by Joss).

[ edited by Emmie on 2008-11-28 00:10 ]

Emmie | November 28, 00:06 CET

Oh! Notice how Willow says "So close" while biting her lip, just like in the last issue with present Willow visiting her snaky pal?

WilliamTheB | November 28, 00:52 CET

A few comments:

Willow's involvement with Harth. I think she needed him to set up the original time portal spell. Given that she's apparently had a lot of her own power drained, she probably needs assistance - and we know from the 'Fray' comic that Harth is good at opening portals.

Also, it might be that she deliberately encouraged him to create a vampire army in order to show Buffy, once she arrived, that the future really sucked with only one Slayer. Assuming Willow also engineered the confrontation with Gunther, she also arranged for Harth's vampires to be destroyed again once they'd served their purpose.

Riley - if he's not been brainwashed and isn't playing a triple agent role but is actually working for Twilight voluntarily, then my guess is that Twilight promised him that ending all magic and banishing the demons will not kill Buffy, but turn her into a normal girl again.

Fray's world - I disagree with the general consensus here. I think when it faded out to white and then faded back in again on the last page, it became an AU. It's no longer the actual future of the Buffyverse, but a Wishverse-style alternative future. Of course, to AU-Melaka and AU-Erin, their world is the real world and it's Buffy who lives in an AU.

Willow's plan - I followed much the same steps as Emmie but reached the exact opposite conclusion. I think Future!Willow's plan was to change her past to wipe her own timeline out of existence. In her universe, Buffy ended up agreeing with Twilight's plan to end all magic and banish the demons and turn the Slayers back into normal girls, and she and Willow fought on opposite sides in the war (and Willow lost).

But now, Buffy has seen what a future with only one Slayer would be like, and she's had to kill Willow with her own hands. So now, she'll be far less willing to become estranged from Willow, and far less likely to agree with Twilight's plan. She'll fight tooth and nail alongside Willow to defeat Twilight and preserve the multiple Slayers and magic and yes, even demons.

By her death, Future!Willow ensured that she would never have existed at all, and gave her present-day incarnation the hope of a better future.

stormwreath | November 28, 01:34 CET

November 26 2008