Whedonesque : Comments on 18242 : (SPOILER) Cover for Angel #18.

No comment.

marvelknight616 | November 28, 21:44 CET

Comment:

I'll keep buying the comics as long as the stories are original and interesting.

And where does he get that Leopard anyway?

bigsofty | November 28, 22:18 CET

I think the leopard is the were-cat Kelley Armstrong said would be one of the new characters. Not sure how I feel about the concept as of yet, will have to wait for its execution.

Angel's likeness and anatomy are rather "meh" in this cover, by the way.

Enisy | November 28, 22:20 CET

*snore*

Buffy the Slayer Layer | November 28, 22:40 CET

Well I really like it myself. I'm a big fan of Urru's art, and this is just amazing.

sueworld2003 | November 28, 23:19 CET

This isn't Urru, is it? I think it's Gabriel Rodriguez.

Enisy | November 28, 23:31 CET

No you're right there. I was getting mixed up with the wrap around cover that I'd just been looking at for ATF. *g*

[ edited by sueworld2003 on 2008-11-28 23:44 ]

sueworld2003 | November 28, 23:41 CET

*snore*

Yes we get it, you don't like the Angel comics. Now if you can offer anything else apart from little digs that would be lovely.

Simon | November 28, 23:55 CET

Well-played, Simon.

I'm not blown away, by any means, but it's still serviceable. I am actually intrigued by the were-cat, and wonder where the author is going with it.

Mostly, though, I'm just worried that the new author - Kelly Armstrong, is it? - won't have the same handle on voices as Brian Lynch does. I guess we'll see.

CowboyCliche | November 29, 00:30 CET

Looks neat. I'll definitely be investing.

redders | November 29, 00:34 CET

The all-Canadian issue?

redeem147 | November 29, 00:42 CET

There are still tentacle thingies enveloping the building... I guess that means we're not leaving hell anytime soon?

Valentyn | November 29, 00:57 CET

Does Angel's head looked...bigger than usual in that cover?

Anyways, the were-cat sounds interesting to me. We'll see how it plays out.

Emmie | November 29, 00:58 CET

Pretty rubbish if you ask me, it doesn't really look like Angel at all.

Who's doing the art for this?

The Alpha Gamer | November 29, 01:29 CET

Interesting

Buffyfantic | November 29, 02:09 CET

[ edited by redeem147 on 2008-11-29 13:30 ]

redeem147 | November 29, 04:12 CET

Since the numbering is staying the same, I'm assuming the Aftermath arc is canon, so I will continue to buy the book. However, it would be nice to have official word from IDW on the matter. Lynch, are you listening? Can you help us out?

Riker | November 29, 04:56 CET

No offense to this Dave guy, but they seriously need Franco's help on this

The Alpha Gamer | November 29, 05:05 CET

That was drawn by Gabe Rodriguez, the brilliant artist of IDW's acclaimed LOCKE & KEY.

Brian Lynch | November 29, 06:26 CET

Best thing about that cover so far is that Angel's face is human. Granted, it is most of the time when he's a vampire, too. But, it's not a bad place to start.

"Aftermath" is canon. This is not ambiguous.

KingofCretins | November 29, 07:12 CET

I don't think it's really be stated either way. I think the ambiguity is at an all time high.

aapac | November 29, 09:56 CET

"All time high" suggests that there has, up until now, been ambiguity which might be escalated. That's not so. There has never been any reasonable difference of opinion about Season 8 and "Angel: After the Fall" and "Spike: After the Fall" being canon. I honestly don't see any about "Aftermath" either. You have the same numbering, same publisher, a storyline following directly from canon work. I just don't get where this became a question. It's canon.

KingofCretins | November 29, 10:07 CET

I think the difference here is that Season 8, A:ATF and S:ATF have been spoken about as being canon, by Joss and by others... whereas this has not.

aapac | November 29, 10:31 CET

I hate to say this, but the reason many people accept the comics as canon is because Joss says they are. Joss' name was directly attached to Angel: After the Fall and he was involved in the basic plotting of the series. Lynch wrote under Joss' canon banner. I suspect the reason Aftermath continues the same numbering is because it's advantageous to be directly linked with the earlier incarnation that has the canon stamp. It makes me wonder if we get a Season 9, will it start of with #41 or will it be Buffy Season 9 #1? *shrugs* Perhaps that's simply how it's done in the comics.

It's fair for fans to wonder if the story is going in a direction that the creator of the fictional universe approves. The absence of Joss' name seems a bit telling to me regarding Aftermath - I imagine he's simply too busy to be involved in it directly. Which I find slightly disappointing.

Irregardless of the canon nature of Aftermath, I'll still be buying it. But even I'm not sure if it's technically canon. Joss announced Buffy season 8 by saying it was the canon continuation of the story and stating the he knows it's canon "because I said so." He pretty much declares he has the overruling voice in the 'verse. Who knows?

Who cares? Obviously some people do care. And that's okay. They're not exactly wrong. The canon of Aftermath hasn't been ruled on by the Supreme Court of Joss. That's the precedent for rock-solid canon in the Buffyverse.

ETA a missing "o" here and a "," there.

[ edited by Emmie on 2008-11-29 10:42 ]

Emmie | November 29, 10:39 CET

Ya-huh, and of course IDW is going to continue the numbering... capitalizing on the strong sales is an obvious tactic here.

But it's a totally different creative team, and we know next to nothing about it... which is slightly bizarre, but i'm sure more information will present itself. I can't wait to find out more about it, but I'm also interested as to whether Joss had any hand in the general direction, or his blessing, or if this is totally Armstrong's own endeavor.

edit - for poor spelling.

[ edited by aapac on 2008-11-29 10:43 ]

aapac | November 29, 10:43 CET

Plenty of other Buffy and Angel comics and books have taken care not to break continuity with the main series, but are not canon. (As a side note, I view this as a bare minimum requirement for my potential reading of third-hand stories.)

Sure, even the main creator(s) of a work can retcon story later, but it was their original vision and their guidance that got the story to that point (just means they made a mistake or the story wasn't that good to begin with). The Angel comics have now moved beyond the point where Whedon's name is on the cover, and that says all I need to know.

One of the rare exceptions to this for me was Spike: After the Fall. Whedon's name wasn't on it, but it was done by the writer that he personally picked (and Brian was just plain good). It also didn't break continuity with the rest of the series.

I view the Doug Petrie and Jane Espenson comics they did for Buffy on their own as canon on the same level with Spike: After the Fall, which to my mind is on a higher level than that of the average licensed comic or book writer. The highest level would be Joss' direct writing (or guidance), next highest would be his hand-picked writers writing stories for that universe, and lastly would be everyone else. This doesn't mean that "everyone else" can't write good stories either, because some of the best writers in the history of language are in that category... it just means that they may not be privy to the same level of understanding of the series as those directly involved with it are.

Where Aftermath starts is slightly gray in my mind due to the author's comment about her having gotten Joss' approval for the series. I don't have a link to the quote, but it was ambiguous enough to the point that we basically just have to take it at face value. If Joss truly approved of it however, his name would be on the cover. He hasn't said anything that I have seen one way or the other regarding Aftermath, so all we know is what has been listed already.

We know Joss wanted to continue Angel, so he chose Brian to write it and gave him the rundown on what they would have done with season six of Angel. His name was listed on all of After the Fall. Brian's done, and now Whedon's name is no longer listed with the series. If people like Aftermath a lot and Joss makes a positive comment about it someday, I will read it ASAP.

archon | November 29, 14:01 CET

I have to admit that this obsession with canon on here when it comes to the Angel comics is getting real old real fast I'm afraid.

:(

sueworld2003 | November 29, 14:26 CET

If Joss truly approved of it however, his name would be on the cover.

LOL, should there be an "Approved by the offices of Joss Whedon" credit just so they can put his name on the cover? Actually, I can see IDW doing that.

Invisible Green | November 29, 16:04 CET

I can't believe the comments have gone on this long without someone coming up with an alternative for "canon", until the canon-ness can be confirmed. We can say that these stories are bazooka, or bishop.

OneTeV | November 29, 16:44 CET

The proper (theological) term for texts whose canonical status is in dispute is antilegomena.

[ edited by jlp on 2008-11-29 16:53 ]

jlp | November 29, 16:52 CET

I have to admit that this obsession with canon on here when it comes to the Angel comics is getting real old real fast I'm afraid.

It's not a matter of obsession, it's one of clarity.

*shrugs*

If it's not written by Joss or approved by him, then it may as well be called fanfiction because that's basically what it is. Only it'll be fanfic that costs money.

menomegirl | November 29, 17:24 CET

I have to agree with Menomegirl. If it's not canon, why bother reading it? Joss may come out with something that is canonical that completely goes against Aftermath in the future. If that were the case, I--and many other fans, obviously--would feel completely cheated.

I really wish someone--Lynch? IDW? The Big Purple himself??--would come out and let us know whether or not the continuation is canonical...

Buffy the Slayer Layer | November 29, 17:54 CET

If it's not canon, why bother reading it?

Fun?

redders | November 29, 18:06 CET

Why has literally every single thread about "Aftermath" deteriorated into a thrashing of IDW and "This is canon/ it's not, and it smells!" arguments? It happened when it was announced at ComicCon, it happened when Kelley Armstrong was nice enough to talk about it on her site forum and answer fan's questions (which included it's canonical status), it happened when Kelley Armstrong was nice enough to talk about it on a fan's blog, it happened when the soliciation for the first issue came out. And now, when I decided to post the cover, I figured that even the most intense "It's not canon, (except it is) it must die!" advocates would realize that this horse has been dead the past four times you've beaten it.

Kelley said Joss approved of it. Not Joss's office. Joss. It continues the main series numbering. It looks damn good. Is there really anything else you need to know?

patxshand | November 29, 18:16 CET

I really wish someone--Lynch? IDW? The Big Purple himself??--would come out and let us know whether or not the continuation is canonical...

Lynch has nothing to do with Aftermath. Kelley Armstrong has said that Aftermath is canon, but I'm not sure she understood what that means; she just meant that it's IDW's continuation of After the Fall. Joss is the only one who can declare what is and isn't canon, and he's not going to say that Aftermath isn't canon if it'll hurt IDW's sales. Joss hasn't even confirmed that After the Fall is canon (though Lynch and IDW have said so).

Fun?

Yes, this. Is this not why we read/view/listen to any story?

Invisible Green | November 29, 18:19 CET

patxshand-Obviously there is or the canon question wouldn't keep coming up.

[ edited by menomegirl on 2008-11-29 18:21 ]

menomegirl | November 29, 18:19 CET

Invisible Green. Joss hasn't said that "After the Fall" is canon? Untrue. If him actually picking Brian Lynch to write the continuation of the series that IDW has been putting off specifically for Whedon for years wasn't enough, how about the fact that he co-wrote the outline with Brian, has his name on the cover, and confirmed its canonical status in an interview Simon posted the last thing that crazy claim was made? There was never any debate of "After the Fall"'s canonical status, as it's always been advertised as the canonical continuation of the series. Same as "Buffy: Season Eight."

Menomegirl: Oh it does keep coming up. But the thing is, the argument just isn't valid. Kelley Armstrong said that Joss specifically approved of "Aftermath," so until Joss comes out and says "Lies!" (somehow, I think he won't), I can't see why the case isn't closed.

patxshand | November 29, 18:26 CET

Perhaps if Whedon's name appeared on the cover, then the case would be closed. However, it doesn't, so you'll just have to grit your teeth and live with the canon question repeating itself.

menomegirl | November 29, 18:35 CET

Orrrrr you could be reasonable and take Kelley Armstrong's word until there is a reason not to. There's always that.

patxshand | November 29, 18:36 CET

patxshand, nowhere in the article Simon linked to previously did Joss say whether or not After the Fall is canon. The closest he came was "The people who don’t want to accept the comic book don’t have to" which would actually seem to imply that it is not canon. Just because he co-plotted it and hand-picked Brian Lynch to write it doesn't mean that it's canon either. After all, Joss co-wrote the "Long Night's Journey" Angel story arc for Dark Horse, and that one isn't considered to be canon (although, unlike After the Fall/Aftermath, it doesn't affect the continuity of the series).

Invisible Green | November 29, 18:39 CET

No, I'll be buying the first issue at least, to check the story out. If I like it, I'll continue. If not, I won't. But either way, I'll still be considering it fanfic that costs money.

menomegirl | November 29, 18:42 CET

Doesn't at all imply that the book is not canon. That reference, if I remember correctly, was in answer to the "But Angel's finale was perfect" idea. In that, those who want to have their own idea about the way "Angel" ends--much like those who want to leave Buffy at "Chosen" and call it a day--shouldn't feel obliged to ruin their perception of "NFA" with the comic. The entire interview, for me (and I was under the assumption everyone else), seemed very much like "Here's what happens if you want it."

patxshand | November 29, 18:43 CET

If it's not written by Joss or approved by him, then it may as well be called fanfiction because that's basically what it is. Only it'll be fanfic that costs money.

*rolls eyes* Well I'd rather read a well written 'fanfic' then some of the twaddle that permeates most of season 8...

[ edited by sueworld2003 on 2008-11-29 18:51 ]

sueworld2003 | November 29, 18:47 CET

The entire interview, for me (and I was under the assumption everyone else), seemed very much like "Here's what happens if you want it."

Yes, exactly.

Invisible Green | November 29, 18:49 CET

Wait, now the canonocity of ANGEL:AFTER THE FALL is in question? Admittedly, by one person in this thread, but wow. My head just cracked open.

Brian Lynch | November 29, 18:55 CET

I think everyone who was awake at some point in 2008 experienced some head crackage at that.

patxshand | November 29, 19:01 CET

Don't worry Brian. It's just another case of 'canon fever' thats common round these parts....:0

sueworld2003 | November 29, 19:02 CET

I just...I should stay away from the internet. Yes.

Writing ANGEL:AFTER THE FALL # 17 as we speak!

Brian Lynch | November 29, 19:05 CET

I said... "The entire interview, for me (and I was under the assumption everyone else), seemed very much like "Here's what happens if you want it."

Invisible Green said... "Yes, exactly."

Now...

...

...

*tries to unboggle mind*

...

So how does that at all support your (considerably unsupportable) argument that "After the Fall" might not be canon? "Here's what happens" pretty much covers the canon front.

"After the Fall" is canon. No debates. It's been canon the entire time we've known about it. Dassit.

"Aftermath" is probably canon. We have a lot of reasons to believe it is, and none at this point to believe it isn't.

patxshand | November 29, 19:05 CET

Why has literally every single thread about "Aftermath" deteriorated into a thrashing of IDW and "This is canon/ it's not, and it smells!" arguments?

This actually isn't far off the mark. Let's please call a halt to raising the question of canon in these threads, and get back to a discussion of the work itself. Thanks.

SoddingNancyTribe | November 29, 19:08 CET

Well I'd rather read a well written 'fanfic' then some of the twaddle that permeates most of season 8...

I agree with that. *G*

Writing ANGEL:AFTER THE FALL # 17 as we speak!

Yay! Can't wait to read it.

So noted, SNT. *g*

[ edited by menomegirl on 2008-11-29 19:12 ]

menomegirl | November 29, 19:10 CET

Kelley said Joss approved of it.

Did she? I must have forgotten about it. That satisfies me.

Emmie | November 29, 20:00 CET

Season 8 is definitely not twaddle. In fact, what has appeared thus far has been written by some of the most renowned and talented writers in comics--Joss Whedon and Brian K Vaughn--as well as a semi-major television and screen writer (Drew Goddard). It feels and sounds like the TV series, only jump-drived into comic books.

If you like ATF and its canonical/non-canonical spin-offs (yeah--S:ATF does not have Whedon's name on it, so is it canon??), then fine. It's "fun," sure, but it doesn't have near the same resonance as the original television series.

Buffy the Slayer Layer | November 29, 20:24 CET

They aren't mutually exclusive. I personally have adored Season Eight and After the Fall and I've got no reason to doubt that I'm going to dislike any future developments in the former or in Aftermath. I agree that Lynch is a known factor, he did good work on Angel comics before in my opinion, but that's certainly no reason to doubt what Armstrong is capable of. I'm looking forward to Aftermath primarily as a continuation of the Angel story, and only then as a possible continuation of the canon Angel story. I simply haven't been given anywhere near enough reasons to doubt the direction these books are going in.

redders | November 29, 20:43 CET

It's "fun," sure, but it doesn't have near the same resonance as the original television series.

Thats funny, thats exactly how I feel about season 8 too. :)

[ edited by sueworld2003 on 2008-11-29 20:47 ]

sueworld2003 | November 29, 20:45 CET

Can we just discuss the cover of Angel #18, please? The wanking around about canon and season 8 is doing our heads in. Some of you have made your point over and over again in various threads these past few years. Enough.

Caroline | November 29, 20:51 CET

This is the kinda stuff I won't miss, gotta say.

I love the cover, by the way. It's dynamic.

Brian Lynch | November 29, 20:56 CET

Enough.

*sob* but Miss he started it!!

Seriously I'm looking forward to seeing what this new 'were cat' character is about that we've heard tell of. I wonder what kind of personality they're going to give her and what her relationship will be with Angel?

[ edited by sueworld2003 on 2008-11-29 21:00 ]

sueworld2003 | November 29, 20:59 CET

Brian,

I'll knit you mittens and make you pie if you confirm the canonicity of everything. ;)

Riker | November 29, 21:03 CET

The sword really draws your eyes to it. I like that, and the way Angel is holding out his hand like he has claws, too. Looks like a good cover to me.

What I'm really interested in is the story. I know it goes hand-in-hand with the art, but as long as the story is entertaining, I'll stick with the book.

Canon doesn't interest me unless there would be an Angel (or Buffy) movie down the road. For me, both comics are a continuation of the television storyline.

my 2 cents

[ edited by EvilElecBlanket on 2008-11-29 21:53 ]

Eric_Curtis | November 29, 21:18 CET

Angel's head did look weirdly big in reality sometimes too.

Staying out of the canon thing because what matters for me is whether I believe it. So far, I believe in the story and world of ATF completely. With Aftermath, I'll wait and see.

skittledog | November 29, 21:29 CET

Great cover. If that Leopard is the were-cat character, I wonder what it looks like in human form !

Shade of Pale | November 29, 21:40 CET

Riker -- nice Robyn reference. ;)

also, very intrigued by the were-cat thing! should be cool. we need more were-somethings out there.

also, it's canon, to me, until stated otherwise.

BrokenThread | November 30, 02:04 CET

And when we said no more about canon, that meant "no more about canon" - whether pro- or anti-, mentioned sotto voce, or slipped in sneakily. Just. no. more. Thanks.

SoddingNancyTribe | November 30, 03:00 CET

Sieg Heil, Nancy!

Riker | November 30, 03:57 CET

Uh.

The One True b!X | November 30, 04:02 CET

Wow. Just wow. I wasn't even on the internets and I heard that noise. "Godwin's Law: The Lightning Round³."

Criminy - or in Britalk - Crikey.

QuoterGal | November 30, 04:28 CET

If Angel is dating a were-cat, will this tick off the werewolf? Is he exclusively dating were-things now?

redeem147 | November 30, 04:30 CET

Uh, yeah. That was ill-advised.

SoddingNancyTribe | November 30, 04:45 CET

Pretty, pretty... *pets both persons on this cover*

BrownCoat_Tabz | November 30, 05:33 CET

Is this thread canon? It's been enjoyable, sure, but I don't see the point in coming back for future news stories if Joss hasn't labeled them official.

The Dark Shape | November 30, 06:53 CET

oh, sorry, i actually only skimmed the whole debate. lots of words to take in, ya know. :) so many words, so little time! please don't hate me!! i'm still finding my voice/feet/something around here.

and... didn't think about Angel DATING the were-cat. do we even know if it's a lady were-cat? or a dude were-cat? hm... we shall see... never was a fan of Nina as it is, though. then again, nobody can really ever take Cody's place with Angel, in my mind. (no, not even Buffy! sorry, purists.)

BrokenThread | November 30, 10:13 CET

didn't think about Angel DATING... or a dude were-cat?

I think that was the one thing this thread was missing (even if BrokenThread didn't mean to go there). ;-)

I haven't seen all of the Angel:ATF covers. Have we had one with Angel playing hockey? (Seriously. Can't pass up "ice-skating in hell".)

OneTeV | November 30, 14:59 CET

I don't like the idea of were animals that aren't werewolves. Also, how can a were anything have control over it's body when it's in its animal form? And why don't people ever get bitten by a rubbish were animal, like a werepig? O a weregerbil. I've been bitten by more gerbils than I have been leopards.

Sparticus | November 30, 15:26 CET

Ooooh, werepig.

Does Spiderpig count?

redeem147 | November 30, 16:10 CET

I have no problem with a were-cat. It could be an entirely different mythological construct. Perhaps more akin to the distinctions drawn in "True Blood" or "Twilight" on the subject of werewolves.

KingofCretins | November 30, 16:59 CET

were-[insert creature here]s are popular all over the world. usually, a culture has one or two that have been passed down throughout folklore and such... i'm not an expert on this, of course, but... it's not very far-fetched, especially for the Buffyverse which includes SO many demons already. i'm kinda surprised they didn't at least touch on this in the show at one point or another, really.

plus... cats are just awesome!

oh, also, OneTeV, i'll admit that thought crossed my mind as typing that. wasn't the original intention, but... take it how you will. ;) oh, and also, it DID snow in hell, i think? that was an odd moment... (gotta check back into that later, though.)

BrokenThread | November 30, 19:07 CET

Well, there was that one episode that Cordelia was in a cat suit but alas, she hadn't bought her costume from Ethan's so no werecat.

Darn it.

menomegirl | November 30, 20:43 CET

Cat!

UnpluggedCrazy | November 30, 21:14 CET

Ooh, I just remembered the big cat that Gunn met in the White Room. (Creepier than the little girl, or not? I never could decide.)

skittledog | November 30, 22:32 CET

I always thought the little girl was creepier.

menomegirl | November 30, 23:04 CET

Sparticus: I don't like the idea of were animals that aren't werewolves... And why don't people ever get bitten by a rubbish were animal, like a werepig?

Wikipedia has an entry for werecats, from all over the globe (jaguars, tigers, leopards, etc.).

Were-bears are pretty common. In "Pangs", the Chumash spirit could change between human and bear. Lord of the Rings had the Beorns. The Wikipedia lists a plush toy.

Last, but not least, we had the recent Wallace & Gromit movie, with its terrifying were-rabbit. (Cheese!)

OneTeV | December 01, 00:34 CET

OH also Dracula could turn into more than just a wolf.

Okay, not the same idea, but... in terms of the Buffyverse, animal transformations are pretty scarce. It's good to keep track of all happenings.

But YES, were-bear! Totally counts! As for Angel's Big Cat, well, that wasn't quite a were-cat, but... indeed slightly creepy (but as a rule, little children are waaaaay creepier).

BrokenThread | December 01, 03:43 CET

Little girl always seemed sorta vaguely friendly though. The cat was just... a cat. As in it could seem completely in love with you one minute and then rip your throat out the next. (Don't get me wrong, I love cats, but they are a mite unpredictable.)

skittledog | December 01, 09:22 CET

November 28 2008