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December 02 2008

(SPOILER) Six page preview for Buffy #20. Plus an interview with the writer Jeph Loeb as well.


The issue is dedicated to Loeb's late son Sam, with the proceeds to benefit the Sam Loeb Scholarship Fund for a teenage drama workshop at Cal State Northridge.


Hmm. So far I like the issue, but I'm not crazy about it--this feels like a situation in which the 22-page thing is a little too constrictive. It feels rushed.

That said, I'm looking forward to getting past the intro parts and into the meat of the story--I'm really looking forward to a little more season one.
I adore that they explained what happened to Xander's skateboard... I had a small memorial service for it once.


(And by memorial service I mean Live Journal Icon).
Meh. Both the art and the script give this a very childish/immature feel, which the series never was, even back in Season 1. Or are we supposed to conclude that it just looks that way because we're seeing it from older-and-wiser Buffy's point of view? (And also, yeah, rushed: BAM WHAM, this happened, then this happened, then this happened, with no organic transition between the scenes or Buffy's thoughts.)

I thought I'd have liked to see more Season 1, but now I'm mostly just impatient to get on with the main story. The delays may have something to do with it, too.

[ edited by Enisy on 2008-12-02 20:03 ]
Not digging Xander or Giles in animated form. Otherwise this looks good though.

[ edited by Sunfire on 2008-12-02 20:07 ]
I think its fab. I love to see it spun out as a mini-series.
I wonder what it is that Buffy knows and could run away from.
Ooo, this looks interesting.
I wonder what it is that Buffy knows and could run away from.

Her future, presumably?
I cannot wait to get my hands on this issue. It looks amazing! Joyce has now appeared in every season of Buffy!
Both the art and the script give this a very childish/immature feel, which the series never was, even back in Season 1.

We're seeing it as how the animated series was going to be. The animated series, being a cartoon, would have felt different in tone from the live action first season.

[ edited by Riker on 2008-12-02 20:16 ]
I'm wondering how big a deal Angelus will be. Presumably, Buffy does have a chance to change all that, too. Thoughts like this make me wonder if this shouldn't have been an arc rather than a single issue. Even two would've been better, I think.

Based on just these pages. The next 16 could prove me wrong.
I really like the preview so far. I don't care about the transitions -- it adds a dream like feel to it, which, based on the narration, it's supposed to have. Plus, it lets them fit more in.
Hehe. It looks pretty cool to me. :D

I think I'll enjoy it, unless after those 8 pages they really muck up and I'll hate it. XD But I doubt it. lol.

[ edited by druzilla on 2008-12-02 20:28 ]
Seeing Snyder again for the first time since "Restless" fills me with joy. I can't wait to get my hands on this.
Beautiful stuff.
Pretty! I'm really excited to see where they go with this issue!
I don't know why we would necessarily need transitions. I mean, this is between Season 1 & 2... it's not like we don't know what happens- big bad loses, Scoobies win. And Buffy (Season 8) doesn't really know what's going on, or why she's there. She's just in it for the ride. I'm cool with that.

I agree with KoC, it does add to the dream-like state of it all.

And the art is a nice reminder that we're not really here... so-to-speak. Buffy's done this already. I would think that compared to the following seasons (& Season 8), she would remember Season 1 as being "easy", more-freeing, less responsibility. Which might account for her willingness to play along (younger dialogue, willingness to accept all at face value, able to resist "interrupting the past" in a way). I buy it & like it.

Of couse, there wouldn't be an issue if it were jus to "re-live the glory days" (no pun intended. well, maybe). I'm curious to see why she is here, and what she will do if everything goes according to plan (how she remembers it). Or, is the point of it that she re-live her life again? Can she really deal with losing people she loves again? Or will she try to change it? If so, what will happen? Is there vital information in her past that helps her future?

Those are questions I'm looking forward to exploring.

I love the bit about the skateboard. And Willow's hair.

Side note: Did the conclusion of "Time of Your Life" come out yet? I've already be spoiled that Buffy kills Willow, but how? Why? Which Willow? Is it doomed to repeat? What happened to Fray? Must. know. answers.
You could just read the thread about #19 if you want to know what happened in it.
The issue looks like fun to me.


Interesting,so it looks like Buffy is aware that Cordy died.

Also interesting that Buffy asks Angel for advice according to Loeb.I wonder if she tells him she's from the future or tries to get around giving that away?
Interesting,so it looks like Buffy is aware that Cordy died.

I'm actually hoping she doesn't know, because if she does, that's an impossibly snide comment to make, even for Season 8 Buffy.

[ edited by Enisy on 2008-12-02 20:59 ]
The line about Cordelia dying didn't sit super-well with me. Considering that by the time she died, she was a completely different person, it seemed a little cruel to use that as a positive thing.

But I guess Buffy never met nice Cordy.
Jeez, you guys, lighten up. This looks like a lot of fun.

Joyce, bitchy Cordelia, Principal Snyder, Willow crushing on Xander, Giles stopping Buffy from going to parties because she has to save the world.

This is a trip.

I wonder if things she does in the S1 world could actually affect the future, or if it's just a dream world kind of scenario.
This looks like an awesome issue! So much fun!!!

As for the comment on Cordelia being dead, Buffy never met Nice, Mature Cordelia and she was mostly trying to make Willow feel better... *shurg*

I wonder how she knew though.
Wasn't this already done? In Peggy Sue Got Married? Older person transported back to when she was younger but with all her knowledge intact?

Personally, the art does little for me. I am not a fan of this hyper-comic style, which seems more manga to me, or more for younger persons. I know this is a one-off, but I cannot say I am eagerly looking forward to it.
Interesting,so it looks like Buffy is aware that Cordy died.

I'm actually hoping she doesn't know, because if she does, that's an impossibly snide comment to make, even for Season 8 Buffy.

The line about Cordelia dying didn't sit super-well with me. Considering that by the time she died, she was a completely different person, it seemed a little cruel to use that as a positive thing.

But I guess Buffy never met nice Cordy.


Completely agreed. That comment through off the entire story for me. Even if Buffy never talked to nice Cordy or they didn't make up or whatever, why would anyone make a joyful remark about her death, especially someone like Buffy who experienced so much pain in death (and her mother's among others)? They were kind of friends, too.
I gotta say, at first I wasn't really looking forward to this one. It seemed like it was going to be a filler episode, but now I really like the twist that Buffy is aware of everything that happened. When exactly is this supposed to take place? Is it the end of Season 1 or the beginning of Season 2. It would be interesting to see Buffy encounter a soulless/chipless Spike.
Maybe it's because #19 was so damn good and I'm kind of on a Buffy high right now... but I was honestly expecting a lot more. The art is pretty much what I imagined it, but Loeb just doesn't seem to have a handle on the characters. Some of the dialogue is funny ("without the Witherspoon" is the best, probably) and I'm also glad about the skateboard's fate, but it's the first issue of the season that doesn't *feel* right. Even in the weaker issues, the characters still felt like themselves, but Buffy's reactions and the way she speaks comes off as a lot more similar to something a random writer from the original Dark Horse run would do than someone who is writing an official story in Season Eight.

Buffy is being crass about Cordelia's death. The reaction to Buffy seeing her mom their was built up nicely, but... kind of fizzled out. And the "monkey robot" line? What was that meant to do, humor the people who've been speculating that Dawn's next transformation is into Gates? And Buffy's reaction to Willow. "Alive!" Why is that a surprise that dream Willow is alive? Buffy knows she only killed Future Willow, as she was *pulled back into the present* by Willow.

What I DID like was the way Loeb talked about the issue. The concept of Buffy being her Season Eight self but getting wrapped up in her Season One life to the point where she's affected by all the same issues of that time is truly a fascinating idea. I just wish the execution was better. I mean, the scene with Cordy making fun of Willow... it didn't make me go "Damn Cordy" or "Aw, Willow." It just kinda made me go "Huh?"

I really hope the rest of the issue proves me wrong, because #19 gave the "Time of Your Life" arc an incredible, incredible end... and I hoped that the very hyped #20 would live up to the quality Joss set before it. Damn, I really thought this would be good...
I'm an older person and this looks like something I'll enjoy flat out. Forever young. :P
Not particularly impressed with these, but hopefully it will turn around, methinks that this needed to be about 2 issues or more. But I guess we'll see once it comes out.
The line about Cordelia dying didn't sit super-well with me. Considering that by the time she died, she was a completely different person, it seemed a little cruel to use that as a positive thing.


Oh I totally agree. I thought that was an appalling thing for her to say. Are they purposely trying to make her sound like a hard old so and so or what? And as for the "Xander in charge of a lot of women' remark. Huh, so much for female empowerment then *g*

I have to say though I love the look of the artwork, but then I loved this retro style in the Batman animated series. I think it suits 'simplistic' Buffy a great deal.

I shall look forward to seeing how poor old Angel comes across in this, and what Buffy gleams for this journey through her past.

[ edited by sueworld2003 on 2008-12-02 22:44 ]
I think is sounds and looks awesome. I can't wait to get my hands on it. *SQUEE*
A man leading a squad of women is not disempowerment. Women not having equal opportunity for leadership positions is. Making a joke to teenage Xander about how adult Xander will be in charge of lots of women doesn't strike me disempowering in the slightest.
Amazing!!! Loving this.
This looks like a cute little issue. Although I didn't like the Cordelia remark either. Also, Snyder looks like a very large man in the comic but he is only a tiny person. It definitely reminds me of the original Dark Horse series.

And if I don't get to see Buffy in one of her cute little mini dresses with boots that she wore in S1 I will be mad.
Yes, the Cordy line was thoughtless and cruel. Let's substitute: "One day, Cordy's parents will go broke and she'll have to work at a clothes store and then work in a low-rent detective agency." And assume that Angel never got around to telling Buff about Cordy. And just strike this line from the record. On the other hand, I don't mind Buffy's line about Xander being in charge of a lot of women; Buffy is telling both Willow and Xander an abridged, silly, all-smiles version of the future, so why not reassure Xander that his inability to talk to women will go away, and Willow that her sense of powerlessness will too?

I'm still looking forward to this. I don't really like Loeb's work all that much (on Heroes anyway), but I think this cartoony world might be up his alley. I don't think this is meant to be an accurate representation of what Season One era Buffy was like, but a warm, glowy, heightened version culled from Buffy's memories of the time. And this pays off Buffy's inability to move forward all season--the whole year has had her looking backwards, right from the first issue ("I miss my mom"). Possibly this doesn't even represent events that actually happened, although the explanation for the skateboard's disappearance is nice.
As the song says, "Where do we go from here?"

Buffy just skewered her best friend, albeit in a dark, veiny future which may or may not still be the future. If I were Buffy somehow transported to her past, I'd try warn Willow, maybe using a cryptic comment. "If you ever find yourself making up with a blonde cutie pie, remember this. Move away from the windows! Somebody might… um, see you. Don't look at me that way! Bedroom windows are bad luck!"

I expect this issue won't change anything about Buffy's present, but it'd be fun to see Buffy try to help her friends. #20 is likely a "gay old romp" in Buffy's past, a one-off-reset.
Looks like the article writer, and Buffy, are as gullible as Angel. (I won't mention any names here hee-hee-hee....)
Oh, I think it is so great looking- I can't really read the blurry-on-my-computer words, but I'm kind of happy to wait to read all at once. The animated look is very clever; it is discombobulating and strange- kind of analogous to the way that time travel backwards might feel to Buffy, and hence both a little bizarre and very appropriate. It is another kind of artistic reality-to the rest of the series rather as a musical is to a straight play.

[ edited by toast on 2008-12-02 23:13 ]


[ edited by . on 2009-01-15 04:28 ]
That just seemed like a really cruel thing to say


Welcome to high school.
Well, they did attempt to contact the Scoobies after Cordy's death, it wouldn't surprise me if the information came out off screen.
I think the "maybe one day she'll be dead and you'll be... wasn't so much about Cordy as a sort of Freudian slip about what Buffy had just done to Future Willow.
Sadly, I think this shows that Buffy *does* know Cordelia is dead and it's a really cheap shot. Besides, whenever Cordelia was mean during High School, Buffy would step in and verbally best her (or at least become the new target to protect Willow). Taking a cheap shot at her because she's *dead* is beneath Buffy. Buffy doesn't need to make jokes about Cordelia being dead. *sighs* I would have rather seen Buffy step into her old 'be a bigger bitca than Cordy routine - calling her a "vapid whore" or mocking her - "Good, you won't tell anyone that I'm the slayer. I won't tell anyone that you're a moron."

As for everything else, I'm totally digging this trip to the past. Only 8 days til we get this one folks! How cool is it that the wait is so short? :)
Simon said:

Welcome to high school.

But Buffy is supposed to be adult, isn't she?

The very fact that it doesn't even occur to Buffy that she could prevent a lot of deaths and suffering looks strange.
I don't take the Cordy comment as a cheap shot anymore than it was a cheap shot with Buffy talking about one eyed future Xander. She knows things about the future but she can't exactly be all "oh, this is so sad what happens", so she plays it off as a joke - doesn't mean she's uncaring. But she and Cordy were NEVER good friends, either, so one could hardly expect her to be desperately sad about it either.

I'm just intrigued that she apparently *knows* about Cordy's death. Makes me wonder what else she knows about the future.

And yeah, it'd be nice if Buffy COULD prevent a lot of deaths and suffering - all of season 6 and 7 (for example) could be a lot different. But I really doubt that some people really want that to happen. And it'd be a lot of canon to mess with. *shrug*

I just can't wait for the SG interactions, the Buffy/Giles, the Buffy/Joyc, and of course, the Buffy/Angel interactions. GAH!

[ edited by love4ba on 2008-12-02 23:49 ]
I love the preview, and can't wait for this issue. I am already feeling all nostalgic. Wonderful!
love4ba said:

And yeah, it'd be nice if Buffy COULD prevent a lot of deaths and suffering - all of season 6 and 7 (for example) could be a lot different. But I really doubt that some people really want that to happen. And it'd be a lot of canon to mess with. *shrug*


Then why these people (I presume you talk about writers, don't you?) decided to create a story which either messes with the canon or depicts Buffy as a person who doesn't care about, say, Jenny's future death?

I understand that Loeb wanted to write a funny, comedic story. But I'm uncomfortable that it's done at Buffy's character's expense.
Exactly. This is 'future' Buffy after talking, not a 15 year old girl. That was just crass, but maybe thats the reaction they're after.
I think it's too early to say that she won't care about future events or try to stop them. The funny/comedic thing seems to me like a classic trick--open silly and light-hearted, then take a turn for the serious partway through.

I'll be mega-disappointed if the issue doesn't somehow deal with Buffy's ability to change the future, potentially. But I think it's too early to say that it won't.
I understand that Loeb wanted to write a funny, comedic story. But I'm uncomfortable that it's done at Buffy's character's expense.

Funny, that's how many of us view all of season 6 and 7, except it wasn't funny OR comedic most of the time. Heck, some school kid died right in front of her at the new school in season 7 and she made a joke about that too. That's what Buffy became after season 6 and during season 7. *shrug* And Cordy was no closer a friend to her than the randon kid in season 7, so it's not that mean a thing for her to say, imo. Dark humor is often used as a coping mechanism so as to not really think or delve too deeply into the actuality of it. Some just seem too eager to view Buffy's actions and words (based on only a few preview pages) in the most negative light possible.

I don't see her as being callous about Jenny's death either. We have only a few preview pages and people seem to be jumping to a lot of conclusions. I get it too, it's season 1 and some will always balk at that, but I think it's a great opportunity to see how Buffy thinks about things when she gets to go back "in time" basically and see how things were as compared to how they ARE or how they came to BE.

[ edited by love4ba on 2008-12-03 00:23 ]
Jobo said:
I'll be mega-disappointed if the issue doesn't somehow deal with Buffy's ability to change the future, potentially.


I have the impression that it was the crux of the previous arc. Two stories in a row about the same thing...

When I read about the issue for the first time I had the impression that Buffy won't be able to influence the events of season 1. (The cover with a TV set confused me). But now it's clear that she is able to change the past but doesn't think about it. It's a party that interests her.
Moscow Watcher - Maybe she's supposed to be acting this insensitively. Like it's a cartoonish, over the top expression, of her detachment and big picture attitude. Then something will happen in the 13 pages after this preview that will show Buffy she's being a bitca.

Maybe this Issue will be impel Buffy to get back in touch with her compassionate heart. Her heart is "full of love" but it's "blinding" and so she's been pulling away from it. I hope she'll realize she's been overreacting in the opposite direction - being too detached in order to protect her herself.

*hopes*
But now it's clear that she is able to change the past but doesn't think about it. It's a party that interests her.

Wow, you really think very little of Buffy don't you? We don't know what she tries to do or what she's even ABLE to do yet.

But if she's able to change things, maybe we can get a season 6/7 retcon in a big way.

;)

Funny, that's how many of us view all of season 6 and 7, except it wasn't funny OR comedic most of the time.


But if she's able to change things, maybe we can get a season 6/7 retcon in a big way.


Oh dear....*rolls eyes* Still hoping for that one are you .

[ edited by sueworld2003 on 2008-12-03 00:19 ]
Oh dear....*rolls eyes*

My thoughts exactly! *laughs*

And actually, I wasn't the one who brought up changing future events, so....

[ edited by love4ba on 2008-12-03 00:21 ]
Oh dear....*rolls eyes*

My thoughts exactly! *laughs*


Color me confused.
Moscow Watcher, I don't think it's been made clear that Buffy *can* change the past. From the preview, it appears she thinks she's in a dream world separate from her reality. Plus she's been plopped down in the time (season 1) where there was the least danger to her friends and family. She probably feels she can handle anything thrown at her during this time, so she's being overconfident as well.
I think whether Buffy can and, more importantly, whether she should change the future will be addressed, so that's not my issue here. The thing is, this is an amazingly rich premise, and I've read enough fanfiction to know that this is not the best that can be done with it. Not by a long shot. (Based on what I've seen so far.)

Also, yeah, Pat has a point about Loeb's writing and his grasp on the characters, but familiar as I am with his recent work in other series, I'm really not surprised.
Yeah, it seems like she doesn't remember this day, which she should/would if it was her changable past.
love4ba said:
We have only a few preview pages and people seem to be jumping to a lot of conclusions.


By the end of the preview it's already the evening and Buffy had enough time to overcome the initial shock. And what does she do? Talks about a party.
Hopefully there will be more meaty stuff on the next panels.

love4ba said:
Wow, you really think very little of Buffy don't you? We don't know what she tries to do or what she's even ABLE to do yet.


Um... I think that Buffy is a person who cares about people first, about parties later.

Emmie said:
Maybe this Issue will be impel Buffy to get back in touch with her compassionate heart. Her heart is "full of love" but it's "blinding" and so she's been pulling away from it. I hope she'll realize she's been overreacting in the opposite direction - being too detached in order to protect her herself.


Hopefully. I remember your specs and I hope you're right.
Remember, Buffy thinks she's having some kind of a dream. She's not worried about changing anything, or "correcting" anything. Somebody said it up thread--she seems along for the ride. For the moment.

I highly doubt the issue will have no consequence whatsoever. I don't think Joss would allow an issue to have no bearing on the season--whether it be plot, character or theme. But I'm with Emmie.

I think this is the issue where Buffy changes her outlook on things going forward.

[ edited by pat32082 on 2008-12-03 00:38 ]
Well, given how bad Heroes was yesterday, it is a worry.
marvelknight616 said:
Yeah, it seems like she doesn't remember this day, which she should/would if it was her changable past.


But didn't the previous arc establish that any time-travel creates a parallel universe? I mean - Buffy came back to XXI century and Frayverse wasn't destroyed. It became an AU.
Remember, Buffy thinks she's having some kind of a dream. She's not worried about changing anything, or "correcting" anything. Somebody said it up thread--she seems along for the ride. For the moment.



Exactly! I think it sounds lovely and can't wait for it. My favorite line so far is when Buffy is thinking to herself and says that she kinda doesn't mind since she forgot what it was like to "just be scoobies". Ah, I'm such a SG lover. I just wish the preview pages had included her first look at Angel since THAT should be very interesting....
Odd, I think the last two Heroes were the only watchable episodes all season.
I think she's deliberately relishing the mundanity of this dream world because it's the opposite of her extreme responsibilities in Season 8 in the future. Here in Season 1, she only has to worry about juggling her slayer duties with fun. And she's become so experienced with the slaying, I'm sure that's just coming naturally to her and she just wants to live the fun times to the fullest.

If you think about the fact that Buffy even refused to party with her slayers who were drinking and dancing during A Beautiful Sunset, it's clear Buffy hasn't had *any* fun in who knows how long. Even her night with Satsu was interrupted by duty and all her friends busting into her bedroom.

I think the best way to compare Buffy here is to remember how she acted in Gone - she got a bit crazed by the freedom of being invisible and acted very immaturely and recklessly at first. But it eventually led to a huge lesson for her. In the end, she realized how she "didn't want to die" which was something she couldn't have said with confidence before she became invisible.

I'm expecting a lesson for Buffy.
Moscow Watcher--Who says it's an AU? Maybe Buffy had no impact on the future, knowing it. Maybe it's going to happen regardless.
So much conclusion-jumping. Making my head spin.

This is a dream reality to Buffy. She's confused, bewildered, and slipping back into her former self. She desperately wants to worry about parties more than she does about fighting Twilight and the government. There are quite a lot of pages after these, you know.
Maybe we should get a "Jump to Conclusions" mat....

*cough*
We just logged onto the internet, and there conclusions were. They're native here.
One thing that occurred to me: I hope they're not going to resolve the season's "She's so stuck in the past, man..." characterization point here. It was only properly introduced last issue; it's barely even sunk in yet.

[ edited by Enisy on 2008-12-03 00:48 ]
Sunfire, your truth is so truthy it makes me sad.
That something that's been carried through since the beginning of the season, Enisy. It isn't new. It was just outright stated last issue, that's all.
>We just logged onto the internet, and there conclusions were.


Hee! That's one of my favorite Buffy lines.
I am killing myself for not remembering that line was from Buffy. Urgh.

I've always loved Tara's line about the rampant bad spelling, though.
*plugs Crazy back in* Did that help? Maybe it was 'cause you lost your connection?
My favorite Buffy line (and I love Buffy to pieces) is: "Look at us, we came up with a plan, a good plan......No, bad plan. I have plans. Dance plans....canceled plans."

Sarah was so awesome.
That something that's been carried through since the beginning of the season, Enisy. It isn't new. It was just outright stated last issue, that's all.

I know, hence my "properly". Still, I wasn't sure how conscious the writers were of it until #19, and it's the only personal problem of Buffy's that's interested me in this season so far... I hope they won't just magic it away with this so-far silly one-shot.
This actually isn't something I've heard fans discussing that much. Anyone care to share how they view Buffy as being "stuck in the past"? I'd like to hear some different viewpoints.
pat32082 said:
Who says it's an AU? Maybe Buffy had no impact on the future, knowing it. Maybe it's going to happen regardless.


I thought the whole point of the arc was about Buffy's time-travel changing the future. Because, otherwise I don't see the point of the story.
Of course, time-travel doesn't make sense in the first place. But Emmie promised to explain the plot of ToYL on her LJ and I'm looking forward to it! :)
This actually isn't something I've heard fans discussing that much. Anyone care to share how they view Buffy as being "stuck in the past"?

It's funny, the only past I see Buffy "stuck in" is the way she's been since season 6 and 7 - and yes, that's the past I'd like to see her get unstuck out of. That's why I'm hoping this trip back to the beginning will remind her of the way she and they all USED to be. When she *was* connected to her friends and family and didn't feel all used up by slayerhood and loneliness and disconnect. Here's hoping that's the point of this upcoming issue.
love4ba, I agree completely. I think Buffy's stuck in her detached mode from Seasons 6 and 7, only it's been pushed into overdrive.

Are there other interpretations of Buffy being "stuck in the past"?
It's funny, the only past I see Buffy "stuck in" is the way she's been since season 6 and 7

Kinda, but I don't think that's what Riley meant. I think she's mainly stuck in this past:

"I miss my home. I miss my mom. I miss the gang. And churros. And sex. Great Muppety Odin, I miss that sex. ... Suck it up, Summers. You're a big girl now."

Also "...she even got dressed up."

[ edited by Enisy on 2008-12-03 01:19 ]
Just from these pages alone I'm nearly convinced that this will be my favorite issue of season eight thus far. I LOVE seeing this stuff! It's really like a breath of fresh air compared with how heavy handed everything has been with the series lately... going back in time and remembering their happier days. This would definitely work as a spin off, and depending on how it goes I might even prefer it to the rest of the regular season!

I'm definitely getting both covers of this one. BRING THE BUFFY CARTOON TO LIFE!!!
love4ba said:
It's funny, the only past I see Buffy "stuck in" is the way she's been since season 6 and 7 - and yes, that's the past I'd like to see her get unstuck out of. That's why I'm hoping this trip back to the beginning will remind her of the way she and they all USED to be. When she *was* connected to her friends and family and didn't feel all used up by slayerhood and loneliness and disconnect. Here's hoping that's the point of this upcoming issue.


Are you sure that it's *the* past? Dawn has been created only after season 4. It's either an AU or a dream or a hallucination.

Or maybe Loeb just has forgotten that Dawn wasn't there in the first seasons. After all, he has forgotten that Buffy doesn't know about Cordy's death.
It's funny, the only past I see Buffy "stuck in" is the way she's been since season 6 and 7 - and yes, that's the past I'd like to see her get unstuck out of. That's why I'm hoping this trip back to the beginning will remind her of the way she and they all USED to be. When she *was* connected to her friends and family and didn't feel all used up by slayerhood and loneliness and disconnect. Here's hoping that's the point of this upcoming issue.



And hopefully she learn that you just cant just live in the past, but move forward onto better and bolder things. *g*

[ edited by sueworld2003 on 2008-12-03 01:20 ]
Moscow Watcher, the issue is supposed to be based on the cartoon, of which Dawn was a part of. When the monks put her into human form and gave everyone memories of her, that became the new reality. It's a magical retcon. As for Buffy knowing about Cordy's death, there's been too much off camera stuff happening between seasons seven and eight of Buffy in addition to whatever has been going on with seasons five and After the Fall for Angel that for all we know, Buffy and co. could have learned about that at some point.
Buffy might also think she's dreaming still, and so not worry about changing the future. The world doesn't look quite right.

And as Lorne said: "Gift horse--mouth!"
I'm okay with Buffy knowing about Cordy's death--after all, she was a major part of their lives for two years, and a fairly big part for the half year preceding those. I'd be surprised if someone from the Angel team, probably Wes, Angel, or Fred, didn't call and let the old crew know. Especially since Xander dated her.

As for Dawn, I'm also okay with this, because it's season one as Buffy remembers it. Thus, Dawn.
"I miss my home. I miss my mom. I miss the gang. And churros. And sex. Great Muppety Odin, I miss that sex. ... Suck it up, Summers. You're a big girl now."

Well except she has the gang now.She's had sex. And she can certainly get churros. Her home and her mom, I can see. ButI think when she says she misses the gang, she misses the way they used to be. That's why that line, "I forgot what it was like to just be scoobies" is so poignant.

She needs to get in touch with that part of her innocence, the love she had and felt so much back then. That's what I'm hoping we see.
archon said:
Moscow Watcher, the issue is supposed to be based on the cartoon, of which Dawn was a part of. When the monks put her into human form and gave everyone memories of her, that became the new reality. It's a magical retcon. As for Buffy knowing about Cordy's death, there's been too much off camera stuff happening between seasons seven and eight of Buffy in addition to whatever has been going on with seasons five and After the Fall for Angel that for all we know, Buffy and co. could have learned about that at some point.


I see - thanks! So, in the new reality, seasons 1-4 are different from the ones we saw onscreen? That's a bit confusing. :) (Just kidding!)

Actually, I thought that Dawn's presence will help Buffy to realise that it's not a real past but a hallucination. I remember an episode of Star Trek: New Generation in which one of the crew members gets into his dream world and he realises it only when he meets a girl from virtual game that he loves.

And I agree - of course, Buffy could find out about Cordy's death in a roundabout way.

[ edited by Moscow Watcher on 2008-12-03 01:45 ]
I don't have a problem with the Cordy line.I'm just taking that it's supposed to be a jokey line but I do understand why others have a problem with the line.IMO,it's no different than some other things said in the shows that were along those same lines but I do get why others feel different.There've been lines said on the shows that I had the same reaction to but others didn't have a problem with.I've learned over time not to give them a lot of thought.It's personal taste.Some find this line out of character or crass while others are just taking it for a jokey line.I'm in the latter in this case.

My more immediate reaction is still,what does or doesn't Buffy know in regards to events on Angel?

I think this issue looks like a riot though.I only wish it was a full four issue arc.I'm a sucker for this type of story in fanfiction when I used to read fic.Haven't read any fic in a while.
The line doesn't surprise me; I've regarded Buffy as a bitca since S-5. (Yes, overly harsh of me, intentionally so for the prupsoe of making whatever I think my point is.)

Moscow Watcher; I think it goes beyond just Dawn 's presence making it part of the false memories. I think the monks' makes it literally impossible to get to a Buffyverse where Dawn wasn't born when Buffy was 5. Not that they changed the past as such, just made Dawn an inescapable part of it.

Buffyfanatic: Want me to send you a link to "...But Wishing Makes It So..." *grin?
Sure,send me the link,DaddyCatALSO.I sort of dropped off on fic since I've been so involved in reading the Buffyverse comics the last few years.

This type of story(prsent day character or characters traveling back to past seasons)and stories where people from the real world crossed over to the Buffyverse and vice versa were always my favorites.
This looks great! The Cordy line doesn't bother me one bit. I find it interesting that she knows about Cordy's death. And it's interesting that she realizes Joyce doesn't know she's a slayer yet. The last we heard from S. 6's 'Norman Again' Joyce knew Buffy thought she was a slayer supposedly before 'Becoming'.

This is going to be a fun issue. We're going back to the beginning with a different twist. Something they couldn't do on the show, but from what was previewed so far, looks to work in comic format. I can't wait to read the whole thing.
This issue looks like it could be a lot of fun and frankly, less confusing to me than the last arc was.

The Cordy line was a little crass, I thought but not more than some of the things all the characters have said to one another over the years. Remember the argument Buffy and Xander got into when the gang found out Angel was back in S3? Those were very harsh things they both said. *shrugs*

I have no trouble with the idea that Buffy knows of Cordelia's death and that it was an off-screen phone call made between episodes....like Angel telling Spike "Heard it was to get into a girl's pants." in the episode Destiny(re:the soul-getting). I always wondered if perhaps it had been Xander who told him.
I think I'm done with the comic. Did not like or was able to follow the arc of Time of Your Life, just find the whole medium unsettling and unpleasant.

Also, waiting a month or more for what seems to amount to about a third of an episode destroys continuity for me. Just too much bother, and not anywhere near enough of a return.

Ditto, albeit in spades, for the Angel book.

Sorry, but that's how it is for me.
All the "how does Buffy know Cordy died" comments confuse me. I mean, with seven seasons of a TV show only covering about 144 hours (or six days) and twenty issues of a comic that didn't even touch the at-least-one-and-a-half-year gap, we've really only seen a very small fraction of their lives. Is it really that hard to believe that stuff happens off-screen or off-page?
I also didn't appreciate the Cordy comment. Then again, Buffy could have also found out that Angel was in love with Cordelia and was just letting her inner jealousy shine through (shrug). Either way, I still don't think it was very nice.

I did enjoy the rest of the preview, though :)
I think I am coming to the same position as Chris in Virginia. I am just not getting the story here any more; I end up just confused, and the length of time between issues leaves me not even remembering what happened before. Sad as it is to say, I think I am going to have to leave this behind. It does not resonate for me; I do not recognize the characters, and it simply fails to engage me.
I think this looks awesome. I am hoping that Buffy has some serious reflections and goes back to the future/present to make up with the gang for real. I can't wait to see who she tells what. I think she will tell either Giles or Angel everything.
As much as I long to have more B/A moments, I kinda hope she tells Giles.

About Buffy's comments and Cordy...Buffy never liked Cordelia and she never saw her be anything BUT a self centered bitca. Why should the comment come off any different than the one she made concerning Snyder. He ended up dead too.
I think this looks perfect and wish it were going to be longer.

*dreamy sigh* This just made me all kinds of happy.
I got a big smile on my face reading this. This might sound radical to a lot of people, but I honestly believe that season 8 may actually rank alongside my favorite years of the TV show in terms of quality, and I can't believe I'm saying that.

Now this does SEEM like a disposable one-off, but if it doesn't amount to anything more than these pages hint, it at least looks like a fun one.

I'm enjoying the Angel comics, but that doesn't feel like "pure Angel" to me in the way the Buffy ones do. Maybe it's Joss' involvement.

I think there is a "feel" I have when I used to watch these shows, Buffy especially, and the end-goal for me of these books is to somehow recapture it while I read it. And Buffy is doing that.. in-spades, even if I wish I had read the last arc in a trade rather than as single issues.

And for those of you who aren't getting it. Sorry. It sucks. Wish you could get that feeling as well, but to each their own :).

[ edited by rabid on 2008-12-03 05:16 ]
Cheryl, maybe because Cordy regularly risked her life fighting bad guys with Buffy et al.?
That's all well and good but Buffy was just sucked out of a time when she had to kill her dear friend Willow. Last we saw, Buffy is clutching Willow, telling her she loves her. So I *do* kinda get Buffy's snark at walking up to find the bitca Cordelia making fun of Willow. Buffy is being protective of her friend. That's old school Buffy in my view and I love that. We also don't know what Buffy will tell Angel and Giles. The entire Universe could be rewritten after this issue. Maybe Cordy WON'T die in the future. I would love that.
Cheryl....exactly!!!
That's all well and good but Buffy was just sucked out of a time when she had to kill her dear friend Willow.


Well you'd think she'd be a bit more understanding about it then, rather then makes flippant comments. Thats a grown women talking, not a little girl.
Wow, seems several of you are hoping for a ret-con that'll wipe out season after season of both Buffy and Angel.
Nah, just some shippers thats all.
Wow, seems several of you are hoping for a ret-con that'll wipe out season after season of both Buffy and Angel.

Actually, no. I just hope this helps Buffy remember she wasn't always like she was in season 6 and 7 and helps her get out of that 2 year funk in order to reconnect and become emotionally stable Buffy again. Truth is some people just like to bag on Buffy and this one comment (out of PAGES we haven't even seen yet) gives them ammunition to do that. Typical really.

[ edited by love4ba on 2008-12-03 06:03 ]
I just hope this helps Buffy remember she wasn't always like she was in season 6 and 7 and helps her get out of that 2 year funk in order to reconnect and become emotionally stable Buffy again.

Oh. Well, then, I wouldn't mind seeing that too.

Nah, just some shippers thats all.

:)
Nah, I'm not hoping for a ret-con. Just pointing out that maybe we should wait to see what happens before we crucify Buffy.
What I'm *really* hoping for is some scoobing repair that transfers into the present.
Looking at it, it could actually refrence the fact that Buffy knows that Willow outlives them all, as of last issue. Maybe Buffy isn't referencing Cordy's actual death, which she might not know about and just an implied one. Or so I hope, because if not I'm sorry it is a really really horrible thing to say, even for the callous and weird humor that is the buffyverse.
I think the really important issue here is whether or not Buffy has been 're-hymenated." (Supernatural shoutout!)
I think the really important issue here is whether or not Buffy has been 're-hymenated." (Supernatural shoutout!)

I don't understand that, though I do love Supernatural. 'Splainy?

I guess what makes me sad about the Buffy animated is that it didn't get to be made in its proper time in the series, and now seems a bit labored. But it could still work out.
I think this looks delightful! And it will be a nice break from the sturm und drang of the last arc. Though, knowing Joss, he will make something really heartbreaking happen at the end after we've been lulled into this happy rewind.

I am very interested to see how Buffy interacts with Giles considering their future alienation from each other. Perhaps we'll get some insight as to what happened. Also can't wait to see her interact with Angel...though that will be sad :-(

RE Cordelia comment: I think there is a really good chance that Buffy knows nothing of Cordy's death. And even if she does, Buffy has often been crass in the television show. Along with the moments where I really loved her character there were also moments where I really disliked her. That's what makes her such an interesting character in my opinion. She can be selfless, brave, petty, crass, etc. Cordelia as well (even in later years on Angel).
Oh please, no heartbreaking angst in this one issue. Let Buffy be happy for one month. I do imagine that just leaving these "happier times" is going to be painful. For all of us.

So yeah, buck up, it's coming.
dreamlogic When SPN's Dean came back from hell, he came back with perfect, scar-free skin. He claimed to be brand new and 'rehymenated'. Which, of course, he then proceeded to lose...

I like this preview, it's so nice to see a happy, care-free Buffy again. And finally, the great skateboard mystery is solved!
I doubt there'll be retconning of the kind you're all hoping for. I hypothesize the heartbreak will be that by the time Buffy realises she's been in a unique position to change the future, it'll be time for her to leave.
Either way, I hope the time-trip helps Buffy in her fight against Twilight and gives her back some passion for her life and friends.

ETA The 'Cordy' thing. Angel was in contact with Giles to ask for help with Fred/Illyria. It's not a leap that Giles would have been told about Cordy's recent demise, and had shared the news with a Scooby.

[ edited by missb on 2008-12-03 09:25 ]
... and somehow you lot make it all about season 6 and 7 again and let all your posts be informed by your stupid shipping preferences. I am sick of it. Some of you will find your accounts suspended, once I get to a computer.

And there's a new rule: Stating your shipping-preference in your username is no longer allowed.
I was apprehensive about this issue because I don't like the drawing style. However, now that I know what it is about, I think the writing could turn it into one of the better ones. All kinds of possibilities for confronting her past, in-jokes right and left, and introspection. So (grumble mutter) the cartoony artwork probably fits.

At first, I was worried about the rushed feeling, too. But I now think it is a Good Thing, because we get the predictable stuff over quickly and move on to the real story. Like, who is the bad guy going to be?

And as for the Cordy line -- I think Buffy's so overwhelmed that she's just babbling. It should pass. Emmie hit it on the head with the Gone reference: Buffy goes all immature and childish when she feels she is cut free from responsibility, and she's had a lot on her mind. Dawn was pretty perceptive with the drugs reference, because Buffy is a little high.

(Hands up if anybody thinks they'd have the guts to make the whole episode a drug trip. Now that would get them in the news.)
WOW! This coming issue sounds interesting. Dawn being there could make sense since the monks put memories of her inside everyone minds even talking about a time when she wasn't really there and Willow having a crush on Xander make me once again sure she is bisexual and not only gay (but then again this is just my modest opinion and I could be wrong).
So Dawn is the future monkey? Intriguing! So don't only Willow lives for two centuries but so makes Dawn!

[ edited by rua1412 on 2008-12-03 10:16 ]
I know it's supposed to be adult Buffy, but really, there are a lot of 'adults' out there who still have very immature and bitchy mindsets, especially in situations that might be a bit difficult for them. If Buffy had any incling about the Angel/Cordy thing, don't you think she'd be a teeny bit bitter? Her old high school bully ends up with her first love, it's a harsh line but I *almost* get why she says it, even if I don't agree with it.

This could be a dream episode in which Buffy remembers what it was like to just fight evil, sort out the Big Bad and not have to worry so much about friends and relationships causing additional complications. Maybe it will help remind her of her real purpose. Or it could be an actual transportation in which she could be given a choice to change something, even one tiny thing, that might help the future. Would she perhaps decide to ensure she stayed dead in S5, or make different choices with regards to her relationship with Angel? I do feel that as older and more experienced Buffy is and gets, it doesn't mean she gets wiser. She still seems very naive in many ways an d I'm kinda reading this issue as an interpretation of that.
Those preview pages put a smile on my face. I found the drawing style suited the situation perfectly, it reflected a younger more cheerful scoobies.

Also I love Xander's reaction to his future. The fact that he is more excited about having an eye-patch than being in charge of "Lots of women" is quite charming.
I'm really liking this, it looks like so much fun. Mind you, I used to get up at 7.30 am on Saturdays to watch Sabrina the Animated Series....maybe I just have a strange love of animated type things.

I still don't know which cover to get though. Perhaps both, 'tis the season to make many crazy purchases after all.
I might get two, it is for a good cause after all.
bishopcruz said
Looking at it, it could actually refrence the fact that Buffy knows that Willow outlives them all, as of last issue. Maybe Buffy isn't referencing Cordy's actual death, which she might not know about and just an implied one. Or so I hope, because if not I'm sorry it is a really really horrible thing to say, even for the callous and weird humor that is the buffyverse.


Yeah, I like this explanation. It makes me feel a lot better. By reading it this way, the comment becomes quite funny, and ironic. I hope this is the way it is meant. Also, I hope the whle thing is a dream and has no bearing on the present other than giving Buffy a subliminal or sub-concious lesson.
What if it were a dream? That would allow such an angry comment about Cordy.

ETA: Darn it, two post with same idea posted at about the same time! Tranquility beat me!

[ edited by Dana5140 on 2008-12-03 13:44 ]
Can't believe no one's said this: to Buffy, Mecca Dawn in Japan looked like a "monkey robot." That's what she's referring to.
I can't wait for this one! I've been slowing working my way through the Dark Horse Buffy Omnibuses, and the first season second season has been my favorite so far. It's just cool to see these characters the way they started out again.
Speaking of Buffyverse animated series, this is the one I'd like to see. But I'll gladly take a regular Buffy animated, too. I'm not greedy, just needy.
Okay. Speculation. So, let's say Amy has sent Buffy into a dream-world that she'll choose to stay in so she'll not be a thorn in Twilight's side. Did Dark Willow teach Buffy the lesson that she has to kill when the time is right, so that she'll do something when she goes to Season One... and therefore change Season Eight into a world where vampires are known to the public? The next issue after all, is Harmonic Divergence (season one character -- who should be in Hell-A? -- now mega-celebrity).
We don't know for sure, but Hell A should be over and done with by the time of Harmonic Divergence. Hell, we're still not clear about how exactly Hell-A worked, whether it got everyone in LA, only certain people, how real it was, etc.
I love this from the concept, the art, and both covers and am eagerly awaiting it to come out. Eric did another great job. It makes me miss the animated show, which was never on. That's how good this is, it's making me miss what never was.
Thanks, missb, I do remember now, though that may have been the only Ben Edlund-written episode of anything that I didn't enjoy much.
Were there enough hours in "NFA" for Harmony to get out of town?

And I'm sure Buffy and the others were given the news about what seemed to happen to Cordy in "YW."
I think the bigger question is, Does Buffy know Spike is alive? At the beginning of S5, he didn't want her to know. And no one ever said that Andrew told her. And she's never made reference to knowing in S8.
I like the idea, but i feels Buffy's reaction isn't dramatic enough. Sure, she's been through hell and back, but something like this never ends well...
I am looking forward the whole issue!
.

[ edited by . on 2009-01-15 04:27 ]
Thanks, Axel. It might not have been the most popular response but Buffy has been known to be brutal when defending the people that she loves. I believe that Buffy still loves Willow, a lot.
Ah, so that's why the trailer for the animated series was leaked! Still don't know the who behind it, but the why is a little clearer now (in my head at least). A taste of what was to come - thank you powers that be.

I think the cartoon style is perfect for the comic - it just pops off the page and makes me wish for the fun times of S1 again. Haven't been following S8 too closely but will definitely check this out.

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