I find the Angel book impenetrable and incomprehensible.

And the whole temporal thing with Fray just strikes me as an attempt to retcon "Chosen" and the whole Fray saga as canon despite the blatant contradictions.

And Riley on the dark side?

I think I'm done with the comics.

Chris inVirginia | December 16, 01:21 CET

Whoa. Big week for all my comics. Two Buffyverse books, new Brian K. Vaughan, new Fables, Walking Dead, Doktor Sleepless...when am I going to read all this?

NimNams | December 16, 01:42 CET

Why is it necessary for people unhappy with the comics to announce that they're denouncing them? Repeatedly?

[ edited by pat32082 on 2008-12-16 01:50 ]

pat32082 | December 16, 01:47 CET

I thought this was a forum to discuss all things Whedon, pat32082?

Not denouncing them, just saying I find them unsatisfying. Not dissing anybody personally, sorry you have a problem with that.

You ever see threads here discussing relative merits of episodes or seasons of the various shows?

Chris inVirginia | December 16, 01:50 CET

I never said you were dissing anybody, Chris inVirginia. But I just find debates over merit of seasons and episodes and the comics pointless, because nobody ever really switches sides, at the end of it, or changes their mind.

We just all go around in circles like we have a million times before.

pat32082 | December 16, 01:58 CET

Speaking for myself, I always feel a little bit of indignation when I hear someone doesn't like something that I thoroughly enjoyed. Especially when Joss is responsible for the works in question.

I get what you're sayin' Chris, it just a bitter pill for me to swallow. You don't have to like everything.

That aside, I cannot tell you how utterly excited I was for Issue #19 of the Buffy this month. And it DID NOT disappoint.

Rebekah | December 16, 02:01 CET

Personally I do it largely because I enjoy whining in public.

Strictly speaking I shouldn't be able to afford these this pay but next won't be inherently easier and I've been getting impatient for a Buffix.

DaddyCatALSO | December 16, 02:15 CET

Crap, Rebakah...I don't mean to cause heartburn...and enthusiasm may get me to spend a few bucks more on the series...damn you!!

Chris inVirginia | December 16, 04:10 CET

I just watched Jeph Loeb's Heroes arc-ending episode, which...is not, in all honesty, really making me excited about Buffy. But, it being Buffy is helping.

And I really liked the last Angel, so I'm looking forward to that too.

WilliamTheB | December 16, 04:30 CET

Am i the only one that finds it weird that we don't get previews of them even though they're on a site called previewsworld.com?

The Alpha Gamer | December 16, 04:34 CET

Chris in Virginia, my reaction is definitely an emotional one. When there is a link to the comics I click on it, a little bit excited, and when the very first comment is a downer it definitely affects my mood.

Saying that, I understand not everyone loves the comics, and you certainly have a right to say so, but I personally would prefer the very first comment not to be so negative.

It's just a bummer.

Xane | December 16, 04:58 CET

Please don't have a go at other posters like that, it comes over as rude. Personally I found ATF hit or miss after several issues, it eventually found its feet around #11. And Buffy season 8 does have some moments where I went "eh?".

I would be interested to hear if anyone who didn't like the comics at the start, has re-read them in trade format. And if that made any difference.

Simon | December 16, 08:14 CET

Simon - sorry don't understand the trade format comment?

SmileTime | December 16, 10:30 CET

A volume that collects several issues together, like this for example. I know there are fans who are put off because the chapters/episodes come out monthly and hold out for the tpb cause it lends itself to a better reading experience.

Simon | December 16, 10:44 CET

Indeed. I have a problem with that. The scheduling often leaves me not really remembering what has happened leading to the latest issue. The problem is, already having the comic, I cannot then go buy the trade. But the analogy would be getting a DVD set of an entire season of a show, as compared to watching it on a weekly basis for 24 weeks. With Buffy and this S8, the bigger problem is, it will occur over a 2-year period. That is a very long time indeed. It is part of the problem I have with the comic in general.

Dana5140 | December 16, 10:50 CET

I read the two first arcs at two sittings, after that I succumbed to the read-it-right-away. I'd say they do work much better when read an arc at a time, but in my eagerness to actually read this website I just download the episodes as they come. It's nice not to be forced to avoid the spoilers, but the single issues do suffer some, kind of watching an episode to a commercial break and then waiting for another month for the next part...

Now, I just got the Wolves at the Gate TBP and I re-read the first 3 arcs at one setting, and yes, they do benefit from this. It's one story after all. I can't really comment on the not liking part, I liked it from the start, but I did read the first 5 issues in one sitting.

I just can't wait for the ending of season 8, I'm planning on a full S1-S8 marathon with possibly some Buffy Omnibus interleaved.

Eerikki | December 16, 11:17 CET

I love the Buffy comic, but find the Angel series terribly hard to follow. I think my problems with the Angel series has a lot to do with not having been much of a comics reader before.

I'm just not good at picking up what's implied, rather than shown specifically about plot- can't tell what's happening much of the time in the Angel books, without a lot of effort. Which, I guess, says something about how very skillfully the Buffy comic has been handled.

I think I'm going to start waiting for the trades on the Angel ones; that was how I read the early Spike comics, and I found them easier that way. With the Season 8 Buffy, I just have to have every scrap ASAP.

toast | December 16, 11:20 CET

Is it reasonable to say that people who didn't read comics before are the ones most put off by ATF & S8 now? I'm asking because, often, when I read negative opinions about them, I've found it comes from somebody who's really not into comics as a medium. But, of course, this is just my own anecdotal evidence, so it doesn't mean much.

nyrk | December 16, 11:24 CET

Well I used to collect comics for about 25 years of so, and am more then familiar with the medium, and so that doesn't ring true for me at least.

I just have other issues with season 8 which have more to do with the story and the pacing, rather then because it's in graphic form.

[ edited by sueworld2003 on 2008-12-16 14:41 ]

sueworld2003 | December 16, 12:58 CET

Seems likely, nyrk. I wouldn't say that the Angel series "puts me off", though. It's not like it's distasteful or something, just confusing, and hence less enjoyable than the Buffy comic. Season 8 ambiguities are all about ideas and suspense, whilst some of the Angel ambiguities seems to be unintentional lack of clarity?

toast | December 16, 13:02 CET

I think the First Night interlude cost momentum for After The Fall. It might have worked better has it had been released as a seperate mini-series like Spike: After The Fall. Insane Gunn in #11 and the return of Cordelia in #12 got my interest again.

But I will say that IDW are to be commended for being more fan friendly than Dark Horse by releasing the tpbs quickly (and in a lovely format to boot). Dark Horse seems to drag its feet with the release of the volumes.

Simon | December 16, 13:07 CET

I agree Simon, Dark Horse should be commended for the nice schedule on releasing Buffy TPB:s, and IDW reprimanded for the archaic schedule of Angel...

Heh, I had to recheck that, you got me for a second: 'Wait, did the publications really go that way around?' Also, seems IDW has badness of a website comparable to the release schedule, either they did not publish the Angel TPB schedules yet or I just can't find them. Totally unusable website, though it does look nice.

Eerikki | December 16, 14:07 CET

I don't see contradictions in FrayXChosen. Joss did the two as (can I say the word?) "Canon". Fray have centuries to happen. We don't even know if Buffy will be the one to end the magic with help of some foes. I was affraid of a retcon but the line of Future Willow: What happens in your time will cause your time to come, do you see? put the things in their place, even don't be necessary Buffy's travel to the future of Fray happens. To me, the difference between Angel X Buffy Comics is like in Buffy Joss is using an sniper gun to hit his points, and B Lynch gets a shotgun.

toast I see your poit, as non comic fan. However, if you could try King of Cretins transcripts for Buffy and Angel comics. They're very good and help a lot if you live in a country where isn't those editions ;)

Brasilian Chaos Man | December 16, 14:18 CET

What's the new BKV NimNams?

fangless | December 16, 18:42 CET

I concur with your "unintentional lack of clarity" comment regarding early Angel ATF issues, but after the "First Night" mini-series, the story became much more clearer (and interesting). Buffy, on the other hand, started off with a clear story, but became much more confusing during the "Fray" arc. In a nutshell, I like the early Buffy issues more than the newer issues, and I enjoy (and understand) the newer Angel issues more than the early issues. The stories have evolved in different ways: good for Angel, not so much for Buffy.

hobnail | December 16, 19:29 CET

Thanks, hobnail, I'm going to check out the transcripts for Angel further, and think they may clear things up a bit for me, from a quick look. I'm not really having any problems following Buffy, though I agree the Fray arc took more concentration than the earlier ones.

I think it is mostly a matter of the way the drawings work with the text, and the distinctions,or lack thereof, in the drawings, between characters who share physical traits. It's really very interesting, seems the artist bears a large part of the narrative burden in comics. It's not simple illustration, that's for sure.

[ edited by toast on 2008-12-16 22:38 ]

toast | December 16, 22:37 CET