Whedonesque : Comments on 18420 : "This changes everything" - Tubefilter review of the Dr. Horrible DVD.

Wiccan bees!

The One True b!X | December 17, 19:11 CET

Wiccan subtitles?

I know Simon already said it, but I think it deserved to be confused about again.

Seriously, Wiccan? Mayhap that choice on the DVD commentary menu leads to an easter egg?!

I had no idea that Joss had ever pitched this to a network of any kind. Am I the only one who didn't know this? Wasn't the whole point that no-one could do any writing for the networks at that point? What am I missing here?

phlebotinin | December 17, 19:15 CET

I had no idea that Joss had ever pitched this to a network of any kind.

There's an interview with Joss buried somewhere in the archives where he talks about it. I'll see if I can dig it out.

Simon | December 17, 19:17 CET

I, for one, am not surprised at all ABC Family passed on this idea. If it can't appreciate "The Middleman" (oh, dear, what Joss could do with him, Wendy and Dr. Horrible.....ooooooooooooo!!), why would it consider putting this mini-musical on the air? Comedy Central or even Sci-Fi is a better fit.

impalergeneral | December 17, 19:20 CET

That would be wunderbar, Simon.

I love the reveal that we see in video real-time Jed release "Horrible" into the wild. I remember so well sitting at my computer, my hands clenched in anxious anticipation and my fingers repeatedly hitting "refresh." Then it appeared. So sweet. (Of course, others in other parts of the world did not have so sweet an experience. I still feel bad for you guys about that. But it all seems to have worked out in the end.)

phlebotinin | December 17, 19:21 CET

Probably best that it happened on the internet, but it might've been cool to have Joss material broadcast on another network. The WB, UPN, Fox, then ABC. After that he'd just need to get a sweet premium cable deal with HBO, Showtime, AMC, or FX.

Kris | December 17, 19:32 CET

OK, anticipation is sufficiently built up now. Honestly. *checks shipping date again.*

jcs | December 17, 19:32 CET

I'll see if I can dig it out.

Does this mean you DO have secret access to the old internal search?

Succatash | December 17, 20:03 CET

What this DVD needs is a subtitle sing along karaoke thing. That would have been amazingly awesome.

war_machine | December 17, 20:09 CET

What, no Swedish subs? Personally I don't mind, but I'll have to rethink some giftgiving, as not everybody speaks English around here. Oh well.

GreatMuppetyOdin | December 17, 20:10 CET

Must. have. DVD. Now.

Also: Wiccan is a language?

And:

Notably missing: ~~Portuguese~~, Dutch, ~~Swedish~~.

Boooo! (But: all Dutch people can pretty much speak and read English anyway. I know most of my friends actually prefer English subtitles for English movies ;)).

Anyone know how they did all these translations, by the way? Did they invest in translation agencies? Or were these just all the languages the cast and crew happened to speak? ;).

GVH | December 17, 20:18 CET

There's an interview with Joss buried somewhere in the archives where he talks about it. I'll see if I can dig it out.

I think it's this one but the original content is now behind a subscription wall.

Sunfire | December 17, 20:24 CET

Perhaps Aud-aka-Anya can work up some Swedish subtitles for the "Horrible" team. Then again, Anyanka probably wouldn't like Dr. Horrible because of what he did to Penny. Her subtitles would be confusing on purpose, a small revenge.

phlebotinin | December 17, 20:28 CET

Anyone know how they did all these translations

Maybe they used an online translation program. You know, to provide even more hilarity for the bilingual.

jcs | December 17, 20:39 CET

Thanks to the very lovely Sunfire, here's the relevant quote that I remembered.

THR: "Dr. Horrible" launched July 15 and you announced the soundtrack will be available in a few weeks. Were you prepared to put out the iTunes soundtrack so quickly?

Whedon: We made everything happen so quickly partially because we wanted to get it out before Comic-Con, partially also because we wanted to make it happen quickly. I tried to make Internet deals; they took forever, they’re still not made. And this was during the strike, this was before Christmas that I started these deals, thinking, "I’m going to make content."

And with these big Silicon Valley companies, they’re like, "So in the third part of the second part of the fifth clause ..." and I’m like, "Guys, it’s August."

THR: Have any studios or distributors expressed interest in "Dr. Horrible"?

Whedon: Yes, actually, we met with a couple of different companies but we showed it to studios as well as streaming people. We showed it to anybody who would watch. My agent took it around town with it tucked under his arm because we couldn’t send it to people because we were worried about security and it getting out. The response there was overwhelming. People were very interested in partnering in one way or another.

So I'm guessing that the intention was always to show it online first but afterwards have to distributed to a tv network as well?

Simon | December 17, 20:54 CET

Vote for Dr. Horrible's Sing-Along Blog for People's Choice award! Remember to vote often.

Anonymous1 | December 17, 20:55 CET

Well, now, thank you to the lovely Sunfire and Simon for the quote. So I wonder if "Horrible" might not be distributed by a network at some point in the future, if the response was so overwhelming. That would be interesting - I like the idea of even more exposure and lucre for those responsible. There'd be greater chance of a Dr. Horrible 2. But then again, I've loved the gonzo independence and scrappiness of avoiding studio/network involvement. And maybe it's too late to show "Horrible" on TV and make any real revenue. (Although I'd tune in and watch it.)

phlebotinin | December 17, 21:03 CET

"Plenty of subtitles to cover a healthy chunk of world viewers (the DVD is region free): English, Spanish, French, German, Wiccan, Japanese, Chinese. Notably missing: Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish."

Wiccan WTF?!? Joss, come on! Why not Portuguese?!? You have such a strong fan base in Portugal!! And I'm not even talking about Brazil... I'm totally disappointed. I'll guess I have to see Buffy all over again for Christmas. What a shame.

PS (edit)

GVH says:

Notably missing:
~~Portuguese~~,Dutch,~~Swedish~~.

Boooo! (But: all Dutch people can pretty much speak and read English anyway. I know most of my friends actually prefer English subtitles for English movies ;)).

GVH: Portuguese Speaker: from 177 to 235 million, Dutch speakers 22 to 27 million. Outch!

[ edited by Rikardo on 2008-12-17 21:23 ]

Rikardo | December 17, 21:05 CET

Kris,

I'm been hoping like MTV or VH1.

Anonymous1 | December 17, 21:12 CET

Why MTV or VH1 ? Heh, so he can do more musicals ? Or are they doing their own quality dramas and comedies lately ?

Kris | December 17, 21:25 CET

I'm gonna be really selfish and bitchy now and say: I'm sad. No portuguese subtitles.

That is really common, but as a different project, I thought that maybe on this dvd we would be blessed with port subtitles... even if it was on Portugal's portuguese... I was ready to convince all the people I showed Dr. Horrible to buy the dvd... I'd lend them my international credit card so they could buy it. They won't without subtitles. I'm just sad now.

With that said, yeah, can't wait for the dvd and all. Yey.

maxsummers | December 17, 21:25 CET

Rikardo,

I believe you have to be able to utilize magic to activate the Wiccan subtitles. If you can do that or know someone who can, they can have the subtitles translated into any language you want.

Anonymous1 | December 17, 21:30 CET

Anonymous1,
I'm glad then. 'Cause you know, I'm Willow's cousin, so...

And I thought they were talking about this language ("mock-archaic language"). But they have to be joking. Unless Joss is part of that religion, I don't know why would he do that.

Rikardo | December 17, 21:38 CET

I'm still thinking that this is the likely explanation, from above: Seriously, Wiccan? Mayhap that choice on the DVD commentary menu leads to an easter egg?!

The One True b!X | December 17, 21:42 CET

Like Alyson Hannigan poppping up?

Simon | December 17, 22:22 CET

Speaking of Dr. Horrible, but the CD, not the DVD: I just got it. The CD. It's pretty damned shiny. Here's the first line in the liner notes "A Note From Joss":

"Writing a musical is like being on a rollercoaster that's also a Jacuzzi in a serene and holy cloister where they serve beer."

That's seriousfully Jossian, that is.

phlebotinin | December 17, 22:36 CET

I didn't even know they'd shipped, well cool.

Simon | December 17, 22:38 CET

Yeah. Like many others who had ordered the CD, I got an email yesterday saying that the shipping would be delayed and I wouldn't get it until the 23rd (I'm in the U.S.) Then another email followed saying that it would ship soon after all.

phlebotinin | December 17, 22:41 CET

I just ran out to my mailbox again. No CD. Ah well.

Lioness | December 17, 23:10 CET

GVH: Portuguese Speaker: from 177 to 235 million, Dutch speakers 22 to 27 million. Outch!

Fair enough, Rikardo. Then again, we're the country that brought you whedonesque :-p.

(yep, I'm totally claiming caroline's achievements as part of our national pride now ;))

GVH | December 17, 23:21 CET

And I love you (Netherlands). Because of Whedonesque. Because of your mentality. Because of red-light district (no sarcasm intended). Because you extended your territory. I am fine with you. But Mr. GVH crossed my place. And Sweden! Swedish people should be annoyed too! Also a great country because they have so many hot blondies!

I want Dr. Horrible in Portuguese so my grandmother can understand it!! Pleeeeeease Joss!

Rikardo | December 18, 00:15 CET

Yeah, I like our country (the Netherlands) sadly (IMO) we seem to be loosing a bit of the things I'm proud of ('our mentality', the RLD, for example) but let's not get into politics too much. Atleast we'll always have Whedonesque to be proud of!

Anyway, I hadn't really expected Dutch subtitles but was hoping for it. My father seemed to like it when I was watching online, but he couldn't quite follow it. Still going to buy the DVD ofcourse (can't wait for it!).

The review of the DVD by Joss also made me laugh (quite rewarding, which is to say...) somehow missed that earlier.

[ edited by the Groosalugg on 2008-12-18 01:10 ]

the Groosalugg | December 18, 00:54 CET

I hear you, the Groosalugg. But yeah, let's avoid politics (especially the kind nobody here knows much - if anything - about... although, that might actually be less flammable than any other political discussion ;)).

Also: cool. I've never been called Mr. GVH before. Heh ;)

Anyway: Rikardo, I promise not to cross out your country again ~~if you promise not to beat us with football next time~~.

But in the end, I'm really not that miffed that some languages are missing on the DVD, subtitles-wise. I'd expect that most of Joss' fans can understand English just fine (especially since Dr. Horrible debuted in English anyway), and I consider all the languages that are there a nice bonus which Joss & co. were in no way obliged to include (especially considering the fact that this is an independent project which all of us are ordering through an English website anyway ;)). Having said that: it is a shame that some of the non-english speaking friends and family of us Whedonites, who happen to be fluent in some of the languages not included won't be able to join in the fun. But then again: right now they don't know what they're missing anyway :-p.

GVH | December 18, 01:54 CET

There's nothing to stop anyone doing their own translation and turning them into subtitle files. They could be posted online (drhorrible.com, whedonesque.com) for people to download. It's not too hard to help people - who own the DVD of course - to rip/splice/reburn a copy with the subtitles of their choice.

And I'm assuming that the 'Wiccan subtitles' thing was a joke. 'Coz, y'know, Joss does occasionally make with the funny...

crystalsinger | December 18, 03:08 CET

Here's a handy Wiccan alphabet translator.

Succatash | December 18, 03:18 CET

Purple Hell? Is that reserved for people who talk when I'm trying to watch Joss' shows?

The One True b!X | December 18, 03:27 CET

Well, look on the bright side. In a little while the country will go bankruppet, the government will fall and we'll be to busy fighting for are lives in the new lawless collection of former states turned individual counties ran by ether makeshift dictatorships, or worse, complete anarchy. By then we won't really care if Dollhouse or any TV show is on the air. See, you have to look on the bright side. :)

I don't foresee any "ruppets", since I don't know what that means. But I'm identifying with your pessimism.

[ edited by dreamlogic on 2008-12-18 04:09 ]

dreamlogic | December 18, 04:09 CET

The Bankruppets Took Manhattan.

Pointy | December 18, 04:32 CET

Could be. Certainly, if it's no hope with zero interest rates.

dreamlogic | December 18, 05:01 CET

Amazon just emailed me saying my Dr. Horrible DVDs have shipped! yay

Succatash | December 18, 05:06 CET

Holy crap, Succatash, I also just got that message! Estimated delivery two days from now: Friday. Holy crap.

phlebotinin | December 18, 05:09 CET

Ooo. They are preparing to ship mine.

ETA: I didn't want to get hopes up without merit and I know other people have had different experiences, but my only issue with Amazon.com shipping estimates is that usually what I order arrives a few days before the estimate window. Maybe I live near shipping hubs.

[ edited by Sunfire on 2008-12-18 05:14 ]

Sunfire | December 18, 05:11 CET

Yeah! Looks for email. Nothing. Yeah anyways!

Anonymous1 | December 18, 05:15 CET

Log into your account and check the order status. There is usually more precise information there than over email.

Sunfire | December 18, 05:16 CET

Woo! In transit!

hacksaway | December 18, 05:51 CET

Apparently you also can pre-order a digital version. Does that just end up being the movie itself, or the full DVD experience?

The One True b!X | December 18, 05:55 CET

OMG! Amazon just emailed me! I might get my DVDs (I ordered for me and friends) tomorrow!
*embers faints from excitement*

embers | December 18, 06:05 CET

Does it mean anything that Amazon charged me for my purchase? Maybe they're sending it? They hadn't before, presumably because of the potential preorder price changes. I'm so overly optimistic.

Also, I'm glad I put the money I need in my account on Monday. That would've been pretty terrible. Or...

Horrible.

Jobo | December 18, 06:08 CET

What, no Latin subtitles?! I was really hoping for those!!!

fuffybaby18 | December 18, 06:49 CET

What, no Latin subtitles?! I was really hoping for those!!!

Especially given the ELE's motto is in Latin.

The One True b!X | December 18, 06:54 CET

I would have thought that the Wican translation would be Latin.

embers | December 18, 06:57 CET

I got a "it shipped" email from Amazon too!

But wait, I thought "shipping" threads were verboten on Whedonesque.

AlanD | December 18, 08:45 CET

Onto the matter of subtitles. It's curious how some Warner R1 releases are released with Portuguese, even with what will be called as Brazilian Portuguese for a longer while.

Two recent cases comes to mind.

- A Friend of mine got that collector's edition of the Harry Potter Movies, including all the previously released movies in special packages, plus an extra disk, with well, more extras. What surprised us, when we inserted the extra disk (which was never released down here in Brazil), was that it loaded the Brazilian Portuguese menu automatically.
- Earlier this year, I got myself the final season of Teen Titans. Down here, their doing the volume releases, and I don't think they went further than Volume 1 from season 3. But the Season 5 R1, set was released with not only Portuguese as the default alternative language, but also included the the option with the Dubbing done in Brazil.

The sad part of not including more alternative languages in subtitles, is that it's harder to lend to people who are not proficient in English, to the level that allow them to really enjoy things.

While US people have the bad fame of despising reading subtitles, for people in countries where English is not a native language, enjoying movies or other audiovisual productions spoken in that tongue are as usual as ever. FanSubtitles done for episodes distributed thorough the P2P networks, have become almost an industry of efficiency with, subbers release really good subtitles for shows who aired just hours ago in the US or in the UK,merely a couple hours later.

(Wasn't going to write this much, blame Simon for linking to this in one of his tweets).

Numfar PTB | December 18, 09:39 CET

Friday. Holy crap.

Only if you're muslim.

I would have thought that the Wican translation would be Latin.

Well, me and new born babies actually vie for the title 'Knows the Least About Wicca' (what they lack in ignorance they make up for with inexperience so it's a close match) but isn't Wicca pre-Roman and so more likely to be e.g. Celtic ?

And if they don't have Glesgae subtitles I want my money back. Nesbittian may be a minority language but its users are very ... vocal.

Saje | December 18, 10:45 CET

Mine also arrive tomorrow. The original estimate was Dec 24, so they're almost a week early.

Sunfire | December 18, 16:33 CET

People whose DVDs are arriving early: did you use one- or two-day shipping? Mine has shipped, but it's saying it won't be here until Monday because two-day shipping doesn't deliver on weekends.

Jobo | December 18, 16:53 CET

It's not too hard to help people - who own the DVD of course - to rip/splice/reburn a copy with the subtitles of their choice.

Heh, I don´t know many people who would buy the dvd and go through all this trouble to watch with the subtitles if they can only download (in not so legal ways) the film and fan made subtitles. Just saying.

But I get that it´s impossible to please everybody, and while I´m still a little upset about it, I´m SUPER excited for the dvd, and I know that at least one person here in Brazil (besides me) is buying the dvd anyway cause I showed Dr. Horrible to him. So that´s good... I just wish I could do more and make more people buy it.

maxsummers | December 18, 17:14 CET

Jobo, I switched to over-night shipping when the price dropped on the DVDs, and evidently (according to UPS) it is really on the truck and on it's way to me as I write this! So YAY! And this IS becoming a shipping thread (sorry about that).

Saje, I'm sure you're right: Celtic/Glesgae subtitles would seem way more Wican than Latin. I was confused because so many of the magic books were in Latin (clearly Giles and the Watchers' Council were acting from a non-Wicca branch of magic tradition).

embers | December 18, 17:30 CET

Jobo: I used two-day shipping. Yet it looks like my order, which has already shipped, is on track to be delivered tomorrow - i.e., Friday. I think that some of the differences in delivery times have to do with where you live and how close you are to the various Amazon hubs. Wherever they might be. I'm on the east coast.

phlebotinin | December 18, 17:32 CET

But wait, I thought "shipping" threads were verboten on Whedonesque.

Shipping thread!

UPS 48Hr 4 EVA!

zz9 | December 18, 18:06 CET

A 48hr UPS would, indeed, rule - talk about guaranteed uptime.

(clearly Giles and the Watchers' Council were acting from a non-Wicca branch of magic tradition)

Pure speculation on my part embers (that's posh for "pulling it out of my arse" ;) but yeah, I always assumed the Watchers council were there as a sort of magical analogue to stuffy, scholarly, patriarchal traditions (so Latin, the traditional language of scholarship) and e.g. the Coven and other Wiccan "stuff" was more flexible, almost guerilla style, in touch with their feelings and nature etc. and sort of female (so some older language that's equated in the popular imagination with a more harmonious "natural" way of life).

Saje | December 18, 18:20 CET

As a fan of FedEx, I am deeply offended by the direction of this thread. FedEx and parcel transit are a love of the forever kind.

Sunfire | December 18, 18:50 CET

Insanity. Royal Mail/Parcelforce have a love that transcends all. Paryal 4 EVAH !

Saje | December 18, 19:15 CET

Um, I know these FedEx/UPS posts are technically a mild form of thread-jacking, but I want to call it shipping anyways.

ETA: I see embers and zz9 beat me to the lame. Sigh.

[ edited by napua on 2008-12-18 19:40 ]

peacemonger | December 18, 19:32 CET

You mean unlike several posts above you where it was already called that?

The One True b!X | December 18, 19:33 CET

No, I mean exactly like those posts, TOTb.

peacemonger | December 18, 19:41 CET

Perhaps Wiccan subtitles will be all the older languages Willow and Giles use in there magics... Latin, Sumerian, Gaelic, etc. It's an idea, I suppose.
saje If it was based on the actual religion, it would just be English (or some secret language that you have to be initiated to understand, but I wouldn't know), as the movement started in England in the '50s. The idea that it's based on pre-Christian Celtic religions or any other ancient religion is a common misconception, but it'll usually get you laughed at if you say it around pagans - or worse, depending on the kind of pagan you're dealing with.

ps - do I really have to change my name? I've gone by this online for 5 years now, it's not about shipping any more, just a name. Usually no one even knows what it means! Oh well... *grumbles and goes off to change it*

fuffybaby18 | December 18, 21:19 CET

What's this lack of love for DHL? Abominable.

Numfar PTB | December 18, 21:23 CET

My DVD has shipped! I hope it makes it before Wednesday.

thatweirdgirl | December 18, 21:28 CET

Thanks for clearing that up, fluffybaby18. I had thought that Wicca was a relatively new phenomenon, albeit one rooted in ideas about ancient ways, so was confused by all the pre-Latin arguments.

I stand by my original thesis: the Wiccan subtitles choice will likely link to an easter egg. (I love Simon's idea that it'll be Alyson Hannigan doing something.)

Edited to add: What does your name mean, fluffybaby? I guess I'm one of those "most people" who hasn't a clue.

[ edited by phlebotinin on 2008-12-18 22:11 ]

phlebotinin | December 18, 21:43 CET

I 2nd the "no clue", but I don't need to know.

I think DHL is a tragic love, doomed to travel the ends of the earth & not being accepted into society for delivering its package. It's the Jonathan of the 3. I ache for his/its death in the United States.

I'm really digging the "no support" success of Dr. Horrible, but in a year or two, I'd love to be flipping through the channels and stumble upon the gem. What a great Saturday find that would be!

korkster | December 18, 22:40 CET

fuffy ... hmmm, presumably there's a ship between Buffy and someone starting with 'f' ? Personally I reckon if no-one knows the ship your name ships then it doesn't matter but i'm no mod and rules is rules I guess.

The idea that it's based on pre-Christian Celtic religions or any other ancient religion is a common misconception, but it'll usually get you laughed at if you say it around pagans - or worse, depending on the kind of pagan you're dealing with.

Dammit, that's one for the new born babies ! I'll get you next time, miniature Winston Churchill lookalikes !

(in my ignorance i'd conflated wicca with paganism, pagans feel free to, err, pag me or whatever you do to blasphemers - my money's on something unpleasant with mistletoe ;)

Saje | December 18, 23:05 CET

Many religions have multiple sources and influences. Islam was originated by a single person, but he was influenced by Christianity and Judaism. Christianity began as a variant form of Judaism, influenced by late Classical mystery cults and philosophies.

Wicca's sources are not well documented, but IMO it's a mishmosh. The relative importance of the various sources has been debated by scholars and practitioners since it took form in the 1950s. Current opinion is that the Celtic contribution is minor and superficial. There's a lot of borrowing between Western ceremonial magic (the Latin stuff) and Wicca, similar to the exchanges between jazz and the blues.

The Wiccan subtitles appear to be a pleasant joke. I guess Brazilian Portuguese is to the language of Portugal as American English is to the Queen's English.

janef | December 18, 23:16 CET

Pleasant jokes are one of the best kinds.

... similar to the exchanges between jazz and the blues.

Or L. Ron Hubbard and the barman ;-).

Wikipedia, bastion of truth, makes it sound like it was basically more or less made up from whatever he fancied by one bloke in the 50s, is that widely accepted by Wiccans ? Not that that makes it untrue necessarily, it's just not at all the impression I had of it.

Saje | December 18, 23:54 CET

"Wikipedia, bastion of truth, makes it sound like it was basically more or less made up from whatever he fancied by one bloke in the 50s, is that widely accepted by Wiccans ? Not that that makes it untrue necessarily, it's just not at all the impression I had of it."

Wiccans have differing opinions, depending on what texts they have access to and what they will accept as evidence. The fact that the details of the cult (using that word non-pejoratively) are supposed to be initiatory secrets complicates historical research. Currently the most influential scholarly account of Wicca's origins is The Triumph of the Moon, by Dr. Ronald Hutton.

It's documented that the bloke (Gerald Gardner) brought pagan witchcraft as an organized spiritual practice to the notice of the public, beginning the process of popularization. There's also no doubt that Wicca includes some ancient beliefs and practices. The big argument is over whether these beliefs and practices are revivals drawn from books, or were passed down person to person, or some combination.

It's widely but not universally accepted that Gardner gave shape to Wicca's organizational structure and liturgy. Gardner stated that he received personal instruction from practicing witches who believed that what they were doing went back a long way. The first part of this claim has been verified: some of Gardner's teachers have been tentatively identified. The second part, where the teachers got their stuff, is still in play.

janef | December 19, 03:51 CET

December 17 2008