Exclusive 'Dollhouse' video - Dollhouse

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TOASTERslayer | December 21, 22:47 CET

Damn, that clip wasn't 50 minutes and 20 seconds long.

b!X | December 21, 22:54 CET

That was perfect TOASTERslayer, not to mention awenormous.

Pointy | December 21, 23:07 CET

stoked. "trademark wit" or not, joss dialogue is poetry.

bivith | December 21, 23:10 CET

Shiny.

Rachelkachel | December 21, 23:16 CET

What B!x said.

Numfar PTB | December 21, 23:21 CET

Who is the composer? As the background music was really good.

Simon | December 21, 23:23 CET

Whoa. That was damned cool. I like the score - all moody and orchestral and kind of quietly Hitchcockianish. And the moral darkness. Already I find myself feeling far more compelled by the philosophical issues than I do in, say, Fringe (Fox's other, and seemingly more favored, new scifish show).

[ edited by phlebotinin on 2008-12-21 23:36 ]

phlebotinin | December 21, 23:24 CET

After that, I am not the least bit worried about the quality of the show. I have no idea what the reviewers are talking about, there was totally some wit there.

And yes, the score was great.

Racoon Boy | December 21, 23:28 CET

I totally agree Racoon Boy.
This show is going to be great.

Rosalind | December 21, 23:33 CET

A two minute clip and some of the best writing I've heard on television in awhile. Excitement growing.

hitnrun017 | December 21, 23:34 CET

So cool, who could not be excited by that?!

embers | December 21, 23:36 CET

Woot! Very cool. I loved the final exchange:

TOPHER: Look at Echo. Not a care in the world. She's livin' the dream.

BOYD: Who's dream?

TOPHER: Who's next?

Emmie | December 21, 23:38 CET

Loved the eeriness and the Shakespeare quotation.

silvius | December 21, 23:39 CET

Nifty.

[ edited by Barry Woodward on 2008-12-22 00:00 ]

Barry Woodward | December 21, 23:43 CET

That was amazing. I mean, yes, largely because I just got super-psyched (for maybe the 416th time since 10/31/07) at the news of Dollhouse footage, but also because it was good. So good. February 13th, come faster. Maybe I could induce a coma...

sumogrip | December 21, 23:48 CET

I wondered several times while watching the first episode who was doing the music. Some of it seems dr horribly.

The wit and dialogue you all want is there in most scenes. I'm not sure what show some of the professional reviewers were watching. It wasn't the same one I saw. I guess that is why I don't write about TV. I enjoy it too much. :)

IrrationaliTV | December 21, 23:51 CET

A Joss Whedon show back on TV. Every week! This was such a great thing to come home to today!

Thanks, TOASTERslayer.

Nebula1400 | December 21, 23:59 CET

I liked the music a lot but thought the dialogue was just a liiiiitle too obviously expository. The "Oh yeah, because she can't remember" line. I mean, of course they have to explain stuff, and perhaps the network requested they explain it really plainly, but it just a little too plain for Joss. :)

swanjun | December 22, 00:08 CET

Three things:

a) Love the score, love the set.
b) My brother asked me why Dollhouse was cancelled yesterday. He had read it had been in a magazine. Argh.
c) Look at the comments on that article. Argh. Talk about negative buzz.

Also, somebody has made a christmas tree entire out of Topher's memory devices. I'm not kidding.

gossi | December 22, 00:08 CET

Loves it. Anyone else got a countdown clock happening?!

Tamara C- I think some reviewers go into a show actively looking for weaknesses, whereas the average viewer goes into a show looking for strengths. (But I'm not industry-adjacent, so I may be wrong.)

missb | December 22, 00:09 CET

Oh, also - I've been using man-friend on Whedonesque for a few months now. Please join in.

gossi | December 22, 00:10 CET

Loves it. Anyone else got a countdown clock happening?!

There's one on the Dollhouse Wiki.

I've been using man-friend on Whedonesque for a few months now. Please join in.

Only if Dollhouse fans can be called Mannequins.

Simon | December 22, 00:12 CET

Yeah, that was kinda cool. Eliza aside, I'm not sure I got the usual Whedon-vibe from that clip but in a strange sort of way I'm okay with that. If that means that Dollhouse might be offering a new side to Joss' writing style then that can't be a bad thing. Not that the old Joss style had anything wrong with it, mind you.

And, on a purely superficial level, Eliza looked stunning in that clip. Has to be said. Well, it has to be said, if you happen to be me.

The Arcane | December 22, 00:35 CET

I get an entirely creepy vibe from that clip. Which is awesome. Creep is hard to give.

Nolan | December 22, 00:41 CET

I have an ex-girlfriend that gave good creepy.

The Arcane | December 22, 00:45 CET

Jeez! People who don't like the clip should just... not comment on it. Those are some harsh folk.

hitnrun017 | December 22, 01:05 CET

I'm not sure how any first episode can get away from having a bit too much exposition. It's necessary or you have to many (less engaged folk) confused. You have to play to the slowest in the class at first, unfortunately.

IrrationaliTV | December 22, 01:06 CET

Ok, I loved this clip. I can't wait.

NuVanessa | December 22, 01:09 CET

That clip does look awesome and makes me even more excited for the show. Not sure about some of the dialogue but I can forgive it

Let Down | December 22, 01:15 CET

People who don't like the clip should just... not comment on it.

People not make nasty comments about things they don't like? If that happened 99.99999% of the internet would suddenly find itself with no purpose.

The Arcane | December 22, 01:15 CET

Loved the Shakespeare quotation by the way

Let Down | December 22, 01:24 CET

I will point out there's a lot of T:SCC fans online who fear Dollhouse will cancel their show. They feel T:SCC is being used to launch Dollhouse on Friday, and that
DH may be bad and will turn people off their show.

gossi | December 22, 01:26 CET

How would that work, exactly? I don't like the show that follows this one, therefore I won't watch either?

shambleau | December 22, 01:37 CET

Oh, that's what the T:SCC fans think, is it? Oh, brother. Oh, the illogicality! There's so much unnecessary negativity and bad buzz going around - on a show that *hasn't yet aired.* Sometimes I loathe the internet, I really do.

On the other hand, the internet brought me Dr. Horrible. Oh, the conflictedness of it all!

[ edited by phlebotinin on 2008-12-22 01:40 ]

phlebotinin | December 22, 01:38 CET

Well, it's not what all of the TSCC fans (which in includes me, most of the time) think. Just something I'm noticing online.

Back when Firefly first started, Dark Angel fans blamed it for cancelling their show, and a bunch of Buffy fans called it Fireflop 'cos they were mad Buffy wasn't the sole focus any more.

gossi | December 22, 01:43 CET

Oy. The pettiness.

phlebotinin | December 22, 01:45 CET

TSCC is my favorite show on television right now, but some fans think Dollhouse will hurt it? If anything, I think Dollhouse would help it. We are some strange people. Can't television watchers just support each other? :) It'd simple things up SO much.

hitnrun017 | December 22, 01:49 CET

Despite what some of the fans think, I think Fox is hoping just as much as everyone who likes or is anticipating these shows that both succeed. Numbers-wise, how was T:SCC's chances of survival looking before the move to less-pressure Friday nights, and considering what it would be up against for the remainder of the season?

Re: humor
I think fans, in particular reviewers who notice this a lot with, are setting themselves up for disappointment if they always expect Buffyverse, Firefly, or even Dr. Horrible-style humor in every one of his filmed projects.

Kris | December 22, 01:56 CET

I was a big Dark Angel fan so I remember the anti-Firefly feeling that was going around the related forums. As I recall, the main issue people had was that Dark Angel had been given a third season and then had it pulled because FOX couldn't afford to go with both Dark Angel (which was a pretty expensive show to make, by all accounts) and also Firefly. They obviously chose to go with Firefly and at the last minute, after the show had already filmed a cliffhanger ending, told the Dark Angel cast and crew that season 3 wasn't happening.

And then proceeded to not play fair with Firefly either.

Y'know, for the life of me, I can't imagine why I'm still having some trust issues with FOX.

The Arcane | December 22, 02:00 CET

I'm creeped out by Topher, but I'm sure that's part of the show. Seeing Eliza so calm and docile is also different...and wants me to hope February 13th will be the luckiest day yet.

impalergeneral | December 22, 02:09 CET

Well, this clip is certainly something. For one, it was pretty much great. The score set the tone perfectly, the dialogue flowed like it should (apart from Topher's delivery of "we're also misunderstood" which I felt was slightly 'off', somehow) and was witty and Jossian enough.

In all honesty, this was a good christmas present: I am now more confident than before that Dollhouse will be good.

But some of the comments over there are strange. "Soap opera-y music", "underwhelmed", "this show looks terrible", "epic flop", etcetera. Pffff. Did these people watch the same clip? Thankfully there's some "exited", "wooo" and "interesting concept" to balance things out. And at least we know that internet hypes (or what does one call an anti-hype?) do not translate into viewer figures (one reason to be thankfull that 'Snakes on a plain' happened ;)).

GVH | December 22, 02:23 CET

Did these people watch the same clip?

Chances are that some of them didn't watch it at all. Nothing like watching something for spoiling a good uninformed opinion.

The Arcane | December 22, 02:27 CET

Does anyone else think that sounds like an oven timer at the beginning when Echo wakes up? I hope that happens every time an active is 'done'

bobw1o | December 22, 03:22 CET

Not bad, but not enough to really get me excited either. Really, I could go either way at the moment.

Daburcor | December 22, 03:24 CET

Too much exposition? Perhaps for us-folk, who have been hearing about this for more than a year. But for a new viewer, I think it seems about right from what's in the clip.

Definitely got a creepy vibe from that, though, which is good.

Whose dream?

Who's next?

JMaloney | December 22, 03:27 CET

The dialogue did seem overly obvious but we are coming from a position of knowledge, so it is to be expected. I'm sure I will be surprised a lot anyway. And Echo's docility was profoundly disturbing.

Lioness | December 22, 03:36 CET

I thought it was awesome!!!!!!!!!!!!!

WheelsOfJoy | December 22, 04:15 CET

I'm just gonna step in and mention the camera. Not sure what to say about it, but that little clip managed to look quite cinematic in a way that television usually doesn't, even these days. I mean, Heroes has its people exploding and cities caving in and epic whatnot, but I don't see them having plain non-action indoor talking scenes looking this good. Or camera work this pretty on any kind of scene, action or not. So yeah. Yay for well-shot television.

GreatMuppetyOdin | December 22, 04:24 CET

GVH, I think the line was, "We're all so misunderstood."

ETA: But yes, love the music, love the creepy. "The new moon has made her virgin again." Joss is writing some poetical lines.

[ edited by pat32082 on 2008-12-22 04:32 ]

pat32082 | December 22, 04:27 CET

Im as excited as anyone about Dollhouse but I have to slightly go against the grain of the above posts by saying I was a tad disappointed with the clip. Eliza at the beginning was kind of, I don't know... I don't want to be mean spirited about it but it was a bit hokey. And the dialogue after was, well.. a tad overplayed? Seemed kind of unnatural. I can only be honest. I'm still hugely looking forward to it though :)

[ edited by Beren77 on 2008-12-22 04:48 ]

Beren77 | December 22, 04:47 CET

Eliza at the beginning was kind of, I don't know... I don't want to be mean spirited about it but it was a bit hokey. And the dialogue after was, well.. a tad overplayed? Seemed kind of unnatural. I can only be honest.

I think there was some of the stiffness that you usually see in first episodes that's just a factor of the actors getting used to the characters/dialogue/etc. That's why I generally give a new show a few episodes before really making a decision on it.

JMaloney | December 22, 04:55 CET

I'm guessing they chose that clip because it sums up the premise so nicely, but I really think they should have gone with something more exciting or funny to draw people in. Honestly, if I didn't know anything about Joss Whedon or Eliza Dushku, I probably wouldn't even bother checking out the show based on this clip.

RaisedByMongrels | December 22, 05:45 CET

What was up with "Oh yeah, because she can't remember"? Other than that it seemed reasonably good, I just need to see the other 45 minutes and I'll be good.

dulce_serenidad | December 22, 06:37 CET

I am seriously disheartened by the comments on that page. People think it was that bad? Really? I thought it was pretty damn good. I mean, of course I'm coming from a place of Joss bias, but if it was that monumentally bad, I'd 'fess up. But no. This was good stuff.

As GreatMuppetyOdin pointed out, Joss' directorial skills are in top form, plus I can already tell that I am going to absolutely fall in love with the character of Topher. Seriously. "She's livin' the dream!" Excellent.

UnpluggedCrazy | December 22, 06:55 CET

I thought this clip showed a lot of promise, personally. From the ponderous music to the nice little directorial touches to the establishment of some of the series' core themes to the Jossian dialogue (in subtler form here, but still very much there), I think I'm now more excited about the show that I ever was before. To contain all of that in a two minute clip is fairly impressive. I don't really see what some people are complaining about. Sure, some of the dialogue is a bit expositionary, but this is the frickin' opening episode, what do you expect? If this show has any hope of being seen by a mainstream audience, things really need to be spelled out in the first episode.

MikeJer | December 22, 07:04 CET

mikejer, I think the point people are making is that the exposition didn't feel natural. You can explain things in a way such that the audience doesn't feel like it's listening to exposition, or you can do it in a way that feels stiff and, well, expositiony. This wasn't bad per se (and definitely not by most of television's standards) but it didn't feel hugely natural to me. I'm especially pointing the finger at the 'oh yeah, because she can't remember' line.

Edit: but I still liked the clip and I'd bet all my loved ones that Dollhouse will be awesome.

[ edited by Let Down on 2008-12-22 07:19 ]

[ edited by Let Down on 2008-12-22 07:20 ]

Let Down | December 22, 07:19 CET

Oddly, to me what some are taking for stiff or unnatural I was taking as Topher liking to hear himself talk and finding himself funny.

b!X | December 22, 07:29 CET

Bix for the win.

IrrationaliTV | December 22, 07:42 CET

It's a short clip. Too short to tell us much about the show overall. That little dancey move tells us Topher hears his own music though.

Sunfire | December 22, 07:56 CET

For my prize, Fox can send me the screener. kthnxbye

b!X | December 22, 08:02 CET

I think I'm with Beren77, alas. I didn't love that clip. I'm getting kind of a hokey vibe from it too. But I'm optimistic that an episode or two will be enough to draw me in. I also think Joss's shows tend to build their audience slowly, so I hope he's given time for Dollhouse to figure out where it's going and what it's doing.

catherine | December 22, 08:03 CET

If I could I would, bix. I think everyone should see it early. It's so good! I don't care what anyone says. Fans of good TV will love this show.

IrrationaliTV | December 22, 08:46 CET

Oddly, to me what some are taking for stiff or unnatural I was taking as Topher liking to hear himself talk and finding himself funny.

I agree wholeheartedly with this. I felt like there was character to Topher in a way I've only really seen Joss do. The clip felt very much like Joss's style. And if you compare it to a show like say, Fringe, it's about 10x better. Anna Torv of Fringe was stiff as hell the first episode, as were most of the others (except for John Noble).

I can only hope that enough people will like this hearty mix of Sci-fi and character development.

VeryVeryCrowded | December 22, 08:52 CET

Oh, great clip and the music was awesome. I think it's really important to have great music in the background, though I do hope that they use music more effectively than most tv shows on television right now. Great scene. I'm in. When does the pilot leak?

*whispers* do it right before christmas, fox *whispers* do it right before christmas, naughty critics with love for illegal activity *whispers*

Donnie | December 22, 10:00 CET

Yup, I'm gonna have to agree with b!X and TamaraC and VeryVeryCrowded - while it is a very short clip, as Sunfire rightly points out, it seems clear to me that Topher loves the sound of his own talky-talk. His smug complacency is clearly riding for a fall.

In fact, I'd venture to say that his character will be going through some massive changes as the stories unfold - no way is that "we're great humanitarians" attitude gonna last long, if we're headed at all where I think we are.

I thought this looked great & sounded better. Color me set at "picnicking on the grass with caviar and champagne with no ants and blue skies."

QuoterGal | December 22, 10:19 CET

This looks so cool! I love the dark tone of the show...it gave me goosebumps. This is going to raise a lot of philosophical debates.

ShanshuBugaboo | December 22, 10:38 CET

Just awesome ! Makes me even sadder for the treatment received by Dollhouse until now.

Léo | December 22, 10:43 CET

Color me set at "picnicking on the grass with caviar and champagne with no ants and blue skies."

I'm not sure that we're at that level of complexity even for those who like heavily salted fish eggs and very acidic wines. My level of picnicking is more at decent homemade fried chicken and unspoiled potato salad, but there's a carrying odor of...OK who's drinking absinthe! Milage may obviously vary.

dreamlogic | December 22, 10:59 CET

For me, it's a pulled pork sandwich with yummy BBQ sauce and exquisite sambuca prawn rotini. Hmm. But mostly because that was dinner, and I have a ton left-over.

Liked the music and the look, and think Bix is spot on with his Topher comment. The character seems to have some Wash-whimsy crossed with that odd altered way of looking at the world that really brilliant people sometimes have. I anticipate really liking him.

AlanD | December 22, 11:25 CET

Well, you know, he has a point. Say Echo did have fun, could it be the case that that's a good thing? Who says that being yourself is the highest good? And as for the other guy's comment that 'she thought' she was having fun .... Fun is a purely mental state so my immediate reaction is that thinking you're having fun is the same thing as having fun

Let Down | December 22, 12:11 CET

That was fantastic. I got Ghost in the Shell vibes from that clip.

hence | December 22, 12:44 CET

Hmmm.... all this food talk is making me hungry. Alan D, we're all coming over to dinner at your place, I've officially decided, so make sure you've enough for eleventy kabillion whedashians, I'll bring the wine. (Dreamlogic, you can come too, but only if you bring the absinthe). : )

Tofu, er...I mean Topher, looks like someone great to watch. What will he do next? He kinda reminds me of Knox, all cute and untrustfull like.

RollingInKittens | December 22, 13:02 CET

Well, that looked very promising... not that it wasn't before.
I liked the music too, but I can't find the name of the composer anywhere... and I'm very curious, knowing how important music is in the Whedonverse.

Nico-Angel | December 22, 14:06 CET

B!x said: Oddly, to me what some are taking for stiff or unnatural I was taking as Topher liking to hear himself talk and finding himself funny.
That is exactly what I was thinking, except I was thinking that this is a cynical guy who thinks he can get away with a specious argument, and enjoys getting away with stuff. The character reminds me a lot of Jonathan M. Woodward's in Angel, and I will expect bad things from this guy. But of course it is just a short clip....

embers | December 22, 16:06 CET

What sells his, "Oh, that's right, 'cause can't remember," is the sarcasm and the weasley laugh. He's gonna be an ass-hat.

pat32082 | December 22, 16:15 CET

I would like to note that I have a new quote that I love.

"You're so jaded, at such a... middle age."

sumogrip | December 22, 18:03 CET

The little bit of Topher we saw evoked that Hannah Arendt phrase, "the banality of evil." (It was Arendt, wasn't it?) Topher comes off as sort of an ordinary goofy guy who happens to also (seem to) be a blithely amoral person. It's a very shuddery form of darkness. So interesting.

phlebotinin | December 22, 18:11 CET

I agree with others that Topher was being... Topher. He's an ass that's on top of the world, believes in what he is doing, and dismisses concerns with sarcasm. I like him. :)

The music was beautiful (& so was the scene). It actually reminded me of a subtle Twin Peak-ish music, but in a good way (I'm currently watching that).

And there was something definitely disturbing about Echo. I wonder how many times a day she & Topher go through that exchange. *shivers*

My favorite part was when Topher pulled out the memory-disk thing as if it were a hot potato. :)

Add me to the list of people going to the picnic. In fact, Friday the 13th sounds like a great way to throw a picnic. :)

korkster | December 22, 18:19 CET

I don't think Topher's an ass. Or at least not from this clip, anyway. He strikes me as a morally ambiguous technician. I don't doubt he considers lots of things ok or even great that would make me kind of sick to my stomach. We all have our own moral and ethical lines we draw. The interesting and usually deeply creepy thing is that people operating far outside your own moral boundaries can be quite matter of fact about it. A person can be violating various moral or ethical codes and not be an ass, even think they're a hero. Maybe they are, and maybe they aren't. Just as you can be total ass and quite ethical.

I hope and suspect Dollhouse will play with our sense of what's right and wrong. Like the Alliance in Serenity-- they're the bad guys in some ways but not clearly evil.

Sunfire | December 22, 18:38 CET

The music was beautiful (& so was the scene). It actually reminded me of a subtle Twin Peak-ish music, but in a good way (I'm currently watching that)

Oh, it totally reminded me of Twin Peaks ! which is great, it gives that creepy feeling to the scene, and it gives us a clue of what the ton of the show could be.

Nico-Angel | December 22, 18:40 CET

The little bit of Topher we saw evoked that Hannah Arendt phrase, "the banality of evil." (It was Arendt, wasn't it?) Topher comes off as sort of an ordinary goofy guy who happens to also (seem to) be a blithely amoral person. It's a very shuddery form of darkness. So interesting.

I missed this. Yes, exactly. The most interesting part is figuring out where such people draw their moral boundaries, and when. What does Topher consider to be over the line? What is he ok with doing that freaks some of the audience out?

Sunfire | December 22, 18:42 CET

What does Topher do if his position is compromised? In other words, what happens to Topher's system of thinking/being when his job as a "great humanitarian" is challenged? Does he strike, or change?

Sunfire, I don't see "ass" as being necessarily a bad thing. He is a believer, and enjoys power. My "ass" comment was regarding how he mingles with his co-workers. He didn't have to say those things to take that tone to get his point across, but he did because that's what he does. I don't think he's a force that can be reckoned with. He enjoys the moral ambiguity and has no qualms about making those who are uneasy about the operation queasy. If a guy made me sick to my stomach & enjoyed it, I'd call him an "ass" for doing so. But I'd shrug it off & move on. That's just me.

korkster | December 22, 19:03 CET

phlebotinin: "The little bit of Topher we saw evoked that Hannah Arendt phrase, "the banality of evil." (It was Arendt, wasn't it?) Topher comes off as sort of an ordinary goofy guy who happens to also (seem to) be a blithely amoral person. It's a very shuddery form of darkness. So interesting."

I agree - I also think it's the most common form. As Joss has said, quoting actor Willem Dafoe, most villains think they're righteous. So does the average person, performing their daily acts of ordinary garden-variety evil or amorality.

And it was Arendt, for sure:

"The fearsome, word-and-thought-defying banality of evil." - Hannah Arendt, Eichmann in Jerusalem, ch. 15 (1963).

She also said this, one of my favorites - not that it's particularly relevant, but I'm just throwing it in, for flavor:

“The defiance of established authority, religious and secular, social and political, as a world-wide phenomenon may well one day be accounted the outstanding event of the last decade.” - Hannah Arendt, “Civil Disobedience,” Crises of the Republic (1972).

QuoterGal | December 22, 20:03 CET

The best 'bad guy' is somebody who's right. At least in part.

gossi | December 22, 20:06 CET

Like gossi.

b!X | December 22, 20:12 CET

Topher wishes he was as evil as me. (Yes, that's the Xmas tree made out of Dollhouse memory implants).

gossi | December 22, 20:26 CET

Speaking of music, I'm really interested in the theme song by Jonatha Brooke & Eric Bazilian. I was disappointed it wasn't mentioned in the two reviews I've read. For those in the know, how is it? Also, anyone who has a copy of the pilot and doesn't want to leak the whole thing, I'll settle for a MP3/WAV of the theme song.

[ edited by Barry Woodward on 2008-12-22 20:51 ]

Barry Woodward | December 22, 20:47 CET

QuoterGal, you live up to your name. (Speaking of that, isn't there a quote somewhere about "the tyranny of the name," i.e., people's names sort of steering their lives or actions?)

gossi, your Xmas tree is diabolical. Love it.

phlebotinin | December 22, 21:28 CET

Oh, god, that's not my Xmas tree. I don't even have one.

gossi | December 22, 21:30 CET

Oops, gossi. So why does that tree make you evil, then?

phlebotinin | December 22, 21:33 CET

Something else Joss does well is "the banality of good." I wonder if we'll meet that with Tahmoh's character (I've lost track of what his name is now).

dreamlogic | December 22, 21:40 CET

Tahmoh plays Paul Ballard (easy for me to remember, as I know somebody with that name).

AlanD | December 22, 21:45 CET

Love the Christmas tree, gossi! Whose ever it is. I thought the memory implants were square, not round.

Still pretty. :) *saves to desktop*

korkster | December 22, 22:33 CET

I liked the dialog very much. The wipe scene its weird though.

Ricardo L. | December 23, 01:03 CET

Yep, I love the fact that this thread has spawned both a discussion on "the banality of evil" and a slightly evil-looking Dollhousian christmas tree. It pretty much sums up why I come here :).

GVH, I think the line was, "We're all so misunderstood."

I've listened again, and I'm still not sure pat32082, though you might just be right (english not being my first language might lead me to be less able to detect such a subtle difference).

Thing is, the way he says it, would mean the delivery is less 'off' (but still not perfect) if he does say "all so" and more 'off' if he says "also". But for some reason "also" strikes me as funnier. Anyone else?

GVH | December 23, 02:44 CET

Its funny - I'm glad everyone is having such fun deciding on just what the character of Topher will be like, I just really don't want to be doing that myself. I want to, you know, have my decisions about the character made after Ive watched him in a few episodes, not pre-determine his exact character make-up before the show is even on air, from one clip. But each to his own. Im a spoiler-hater I guess. :D

Beren77 | December 23, 04:02 CET

I'm almost certain he's saying "also" toward the end there.

Racoon Boy | December 23, 05:49 CET

Just watched it again, and it still looks awesome.

ShanshuBugaboo | December 23, 11:19 CET

[Please don't advertise that sort of thing here.]

[ edited by Simon on 2008-12-23 17:35 ]

Anuris | December 23, 11:33 CET

I also believe he's saying "also". Check it:

Topher: "We're great humanitarians."

Boyd: "Who'll spend their lives in jail if anyone ever found this place."

Topher: "We're also misunderstood, which great humanitarians often are."

But, I guess it could be read "all so misunderstood", but from the conversation, this makes the most sense to me.

korkster | December 23, 16:41 CET

There is no way it isn't "all so" to these ears. That's how I heard it the first time, and that's how I hear it now. It's the only way that line doesn't sound stupid.

UnpluggedCrazy | December 23, 18:34 CET

Firmly in the "all so" camp here as well.

b!X | December 23, 18:49 CET

"All so" to me too.

catherine | December 23, 19:01 CET

Yeah, korkster, given the dialogue, it'd make the most sense to me as well. Which is why I'm surprised that UpC thinks "also" would sound stupid. Am I missing something? :).

But right now it's 4-3 for "all so". Thankfully it's still not at all ambiguous, then ;).

All this does make me wonder, however: is the difference between "also" and "all so" clear to native ears? Sure, there should be a pause if it's "all so", but is there a subtle pronounciation difference as well? I'd say the "so" should have greater emphasis in "all so", but I'm not sure.

GVH | December 23, 19:15 CET

I just listened again. I figured "all so" at first because of the slight emphasis (to my ears) on "all" and the little pause between the two. It's a funny way of saying "also" but then, he has a funny way of talking. Though having listened again, the following line makes more sense with "also." Very odd to say we're all so misunderstood, as people like us often are. So now I'm on the fence.

catherine | December 23, 19:33 CET

We're all so confused.

b!X | December 23, 19:42 CET

I'm also confused.

embers | December 23, 20:08 CET

There's two breakdowns here:

"Also" = example, "I am a fan of Joss Whedon, but I am also a fan of other shows, too." It's a "this and that" word.

"All so" = example, "This is all so terribly dull." The important word here is "so." It's an emphasis word, like "very."

I'm still sticking with "all so." The other way doesn't work for me, even with the previous line.

pat32082 | December 23, 20:27 CET

After reading all of these comments, I'm so glad that I don't watch clips!!!

Little Green Kid | December 23, 20:31 CET

This is fun for me, I'm actually semi-using that bachelor's degree in English that I have. ;-) I think it can be heard either way because of the delivery, but I think it really is supposed to be "all so."

[ edited by pat32082 on 2008-12-23 20:36 ]

pat32082 | December 23, 20:32 CET

Wow, so many people posted before my double-post-mistake. Removed the evil twin, took a look, and the argument rages on. :)

[ edited by korkster on 2008-12-23 20:43 ]

korkster | December 23, 20:38 CET

I'm also confused.

Here the pronunciation from the web:

also

all

so

The dictionary references make "all" sound longer in emphasis than "also". I'd say that "all so" would be the same stress on each word- all so.

On "also", the dictionary reference makes the "al" part shorter than the "so" part. also.

To me, Topher sounds like he says "We're also misunderstood...". Maybe someone could do a wave comparison when he says the word?

... and Joss thinks that we pick things apart. *pfft* ;)

Oh, embers beat me to it. Type high-five!

Hi 5!

korkster | December 23, 20:40 CET

I'd say that "all so" would be the same stress on each word- all so.

Which is exactly how Topher says the line.

b!X | December 23, 20:46 CET

I hear it differently, bix. The "so" sounds more stressed to me. He practically lingers on the syllable, soaking in the moment.

korkster | December 23, 20:49 CET

He lingers on the "so"? He barely speaks it, zooming from the "all" to the "mis".

ETA that in fact he draws out the "all" more than he draws out the "so". Its flows like "we're all somisunderstood" (mp3).

[ edited by The One True b!X on 2008-12-23 21:02 ]

b!X | December 23, 20:54 CET

Wait, wait. Who's on what side again?

ETA: Yep, bix's mp3 clinches it for me.

[ edited by pat32082 on 2008-12-23 21:07 ]

pat32082 | December 23, 21:05 CET

Who's on first?

Simon | December 23, 21:35 CET

Yes.

b!X | December 23, 21:50 CET

Great, bix. Now it sounds like "We're also misunderstood."

Nice mp3 though. Creep how it repeats. Doesn't even sound like Topher anymore.

Maybe we should get a judges call on this one?

korkster | December 23, 21:53 CET

I just had a completely unrelated thought to ALL this craziness, SO here goes:

If the off-the-res doll still exists, I want it to be Summer Glau playing her. Be a nice cross promotion with T:SCC.

Wouldn't you ALSO agree?

[ edited by pat32082 on 2008-12-23 22:27 ]

pat32082 | December 23, 22:21 CET

I don't: for one, having the same actress playing two different characters on back to back shows would be confusing. Secondly, I want to see NEW Whedon actors, not the same people always showing up. We've already got Eliza and Amy, let's leave it at that. Maybe down the road when the show's more established he can bring in old friends for guest spots, but for now, I want the show to build its own cast.

JMaloney | December 23, 22:38 CET

You're gonna have seven new ones. And I don't think that "off the res doll" role would be anything other than occasionally recurring. I'm just saying, I'd like to see Summer play something different.

pat32082 | December 23, 22:44 CET

I hear "also misunderstood." That feels like the right context to me.

mister0 | December 23, 23:02 CET

There are seven regulars right now: Eliza's one of them. If we add in recurring, we get Amy, Reed Diamond, and Miracle Laurie. So that's ten, two of which are already Whedonverse actors. If we add in Summer, that'd be eleven/three, meaning more than a quarter of the regular and recurring cast would be Whedonverse actors. As much as I like Summer (and I really do, she's great), I think that 1. it would be too many "old" faces for a new show and 2. in the role you're suggesting, I don't know that it would really be "something different" from River/Cameron. Plus, my aforementioned point about the confusion on back-to-back shows.

JMaloney | December 23, 23:02 CET

I'd rather Summer break into movies than be on Dollhouse, but that is just me.

IrrationaliTV | December 23, 23:15 CET

It's so weird how different people are taking the context of the exchange.

Boyd has just stated that they would all go to jail if the Dollhouse is discovered. Topher's reply is in response to that, not in addition to it. He isn't saying "plus, all of us are misunderstood", which would make no sense as a reply to what Boyd just said.

What makes sense as a reply to what Boyd just said is explaining that the reason they would all go to jail is because they all are very misunderstood. The emphasis is on how misunderstood they are, hence the modifier of "so".

[ edited by The One True b!X on 2008-12-24 01:17 ]

b!X | December 24, 01:16 CET

I agree that his comment is in response, b!X, but 'also' makes sense in that context too. The 'also' would be adding to Topher's own comment that they're great humanitarians but at the same time he'd be responding to what the other guy (name?) said. That actually sounds better to me. People speak like that a lot and, besides, Joss's dialogue can be quite stylised.

Let Down | December 24, 01:41 CET

Yeah, I think he's more continuing on from the last thing he said, with the "also".

"We're great humanitarians... we're also misunderstood."

Racoon Boy | December 24, 02:45 CET

That's how I took it as well, Racoon Boy.

Maybe Gossi can get a peek at the script and let us know.

mister0 | December 24, 03:31 CET

I kind of love that we've started obsessing already. About a word. Or two words. Can't wait for more dolly-goodness!

yamsham | December 24, 03:49 CET

Yep, Let Down! That was exactly how I was interpreting it as well. Plus, I feel that read that way, the line is funnier:

statement: we're humanitarians...
obvious counterargument: we'd go to jail
witty semi-retraction: ... we're also misunderstood.

It seems like something Joss would write, to me. ETA: plus, y'know, the following bit makes less sense with 'all so', at least to my ears:

"We're all so misunderstood, which great humanitarians often are."

I am starting to wonder what's actually written, though. Does anyone have a copy of the new pilot script?

As for the mp3: I'm still hearing 'also', with emphasis on 'al' (which actually makes sense, given the above interpretation). But it might also be that by now I'm pretty much conditioned to hear 'also' instead of 'all so'. (also, I won't be able to hear that line when we finally get to see the pilot without thinking of this discussion now. Heh :))

I kind of love that we've started obsessing already. About a word. Or two words.

Yep, yamsham, me too. It might just be the deepest we've ever delved into such a small portion of one of Joss' scripts ;).

[ edited by GVH on 2008-12-24 05:22 ]

GVH | December 24, 05:16 CET

You people are all crazy. He's clearly saying "revved up like a deuce, another runner in the night"

AlanD | December 24, 07:44 CET

No, it's "bald headed woman (ooh bald baby) bald headed woman to me".

b!X | December 24, 07:49 CET

He's actually saying 'Paul is Dead' if you listen closely

Let Down | December 24, 10:10 CET

Sugarplum fairy, sugarplum fairy...

UnpluggedCrazy | December 24, 12:41 CET

I'm going with "Paul is Dead". Also (one word) with, you are all a little obsessively crazy. But in the best possible way.
I hope Joss is too busy to read any of this stuff, even his unique and marvelous big sexy brain, might explode. ;)

Shey | December 24, 12:55 CET

One day we'll look back fondly upon the Great Also Wars (or arguably the Great All So Wars)

And, Shey, nice brain fetish you have there :)

Let Down | December 24, 13:16 CET

Thanks Let Down - first out-loud-laugh of the day!

catherine | December 24, 19:25 CET

Wow, Let Down's right. I looked back at this with fond memories. It also makes me wonder how well we've proved Joss' song true. We're all so picky. Also pretty, as nit pickers are. :)

korkster | January 02, 21:23 CET

Heehee, or korkster, did you mean "we're also picky and we're all so pretty, as picnickers are" ? : D

RollingInKittens | January 03, 00:19 CET

December 21 2008