January 19 2009
Joss Whedon's Top 10 Writing Tips.
Joss recently shared his top ten tips on screenwriting with 4talent magazine.
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Pointy | January 19, 04:44 CET
That's a great find, cheers Derf ;). Seems a bit random that it should end up in a Channel 4 magazine considering he hasn't really had much stuff on there - just a smidge of 'Angel' IIRC - but no matter.
(and if you follow the link back to the 4talentmagazine site there're some other interesting articles up - though maybe mainly for UK readers - including interviews with Charlie Brooker, Graham Linehan, Danny Boyle and Victoria 'Green Wing' Pile)
Saje | January 19, 05:04 CET
That "finish it" is some useful advice. So is all of the rest of it.
Thanks, Jossdude, and thanks, Derf.
QuoterGal | January 19, 05:32 CET
But good tips from Joss. "Finish it" is the one that probably is most useful to thousands of aspiring writers out there. I too know the experience of starting a script, finishing scene one, starting scene two, going back to scene one and tweaking it, then tweaking the bit of scene two I've done, then going back to scene one...
(Three Years Later)
...then tweaking scene two again...
I've managed to train myself out of that now.
zz9 | January 19, 05:33 CET
I personally try to apply all of these in my work --which has nothing to do with writing for film of any sort.
BreathesStory | January 19, 05:44 CET
Rosalind | January 19, 05:55 CET
Yeah, I saw that episode of 'Screen Wipe' when it aired zz9 (or maybe just afterwards on iPlayer) and it was really interesting, as Charlie says - "pun" intended for both the people that would even vaguely consider that a "pun" ;) - it was a bit of a departure from the usual format but a very welcome one (Russell Davies talking about how 'Doctor Who' was originally created by a sort of focus group/committee was a bit of a revelation, I hadn't heard that before. I'd like to get his "The Writer's Tale" about the [re]creation of Who but it's a bit pricey at the moment).
In a similar vein BTW, this may be old news to the rest of you but I discovered (via Alex Epstein's blog) this bunch of podcast interviews from Creative Screenwriting Magazine the other day (including one with the Whedonverse's own Drew Goddard about 'Cloverfield'), some fluff but some pretty interesting stuff there too, if you're a "behind the curtain" sort.
("Finish It!" is even good advice for coding BTW, one of the first habits I had to get into when I started working after Uni was "It working is usually more important than it being beautiful, just get it done")
edited (coupla times) for clarity and errors and just general "Maybe you should, like, read it before posting ya idjet"ness ;)
[ edited by Saje on 2009-01-19 15:20 ]
Saje | January 19, 06:13 CET
Huh.
Very true...I'll admit to having a tendency to plan and plan and plan my code in my head and then my deadline gets close and I just spew out what I can. So yeah, just get something working, then you can make it pretty.
[ edited by JMaloney on 2009-01-19 15:25 ]
JMaloney | January 19, 06:20 CET
Like I said... Timely.
missyu | January 19, 06:31 CET
I was going to say he left out, "Take someone everyone loves, and kill him horribly." The next would have been something like, "Use familiar tropes... and flip them on their heads."
But that amounts to (nearly) the same, doesn't it? I mean, when I was young — back when the rocks were cooling and huge dinosaurs roamed the earth — no matter how bad the situation, you knew that your hero or his best friend could not possibly die.
Then came Whedon. Anyone can die. Well, except Allyson Hannigan. But anyone else.
Then relatedly but not identically are my favorite scenarios, the ones you knew exactly how they go because you've seen them a thousand times — except Joss delights to mess with them. Like when Giles is in the crypt, leaves it, and Ethan Rayne steps out of the shadows to make Portentous Bad Guy Speech.
Then Giles pops back in with "Sorry, someone there?"
I love those moments. That's classic Whedon style.
filops | January 19, 06:33 CET
Got this at Christmas :) Haven't read it yet, but I will mention that it is stonking enormous and looks to be jampacked with Cool Thingstm. More later, I'm certain.
zeitgeist | January 19, 06:39 CET
palehorse | January 19, 06:58 CET
Yeah, seems like a job for the .org when you finish it (does look like a lovely book-as-object though, credit card took a bit of a whack over Christmas - as they tend to ;) - or my resolve would've crumbled before now).
Saje | January 19, 07:06 CET
I was recently watching Season 1 of Buffy (due to my lovely wife giving me the whole series for Christmas) and had forgotten how he was doing this kind of thing from the very first scene of the first episode: Hot blonde goes into some a dark school all alone with a guy. The dialogue (and ominous background music) was setting it up like you'd think:
Girl: "Do you go to school here?"
Guy: "I used to."
...
Guy: "There's nobody here."
Girl: "Are you sure?"
Guy: "Yes, I'm sure."
Girl: "Ok."
Of course, "Girl" turns out to be Darla and promptly vamps-out, and "Guy" ends up being
"CSI Danny Messer""Victim #1".JMaloney | January 19, 07:12 CET
rehabber | January 19, 07:24 CET
pancakegirl | January 19, 07:29 CET
Well, I found this:
http://www.4talentmagazine.com/2008/11/21/victoria-pile-green-wing
In this interview, the creator-producer-casting director-script editor-film editor-writer Victoria Pile of "Green Wing" (a British show, that being an American who has no cable subscription, I have never heard of) talks about the difference between creating t.v. shows in Britain and in the U.S. with it's studio system. It is a tale of frustration, a familiar one to those of us here at whedonesque cheering from our bleachers.
The article left me wondering about what other wonderful Jossiness we could have seen by now if he had a more supportive creative environment... say like the British system.
Of course we do have the great lure of American sized budgets and all other things super-sized -- big hits, big stars, big numbers, big advertising, big brother with his two cents.
BreathesStory | January 19, 07:36 CET
As an independent filmmaker who's going to gear up production on his first film soon, I can relate to a lot of this.
UnpluggedCrazy | January 19, 08:00 CET
But you make me think: Buffy itself as a whole is just a big, deliberate trope-flip, isn't it? The helpless little blonde slip of a girl is the powerful heroine. You could argue similarly for Angel: the hero is a (hel-lo?) vampire.
filops | January 19, 08:00 CET
Separately, wow, Victoria Pile's experience is so interesting and disheartening. Thanks for sharing the link.
gus | January 19, 08:02 CET
Separately (and completely off topic, but important!)...Isn't today generally considered Buffy's "birthday?"
BreathesStory | January 19, 08:17 CET
Yeah exactly, there's a reason both series + specials of 'Green Wing' still only amount to about 18 episodes - the British system isn't really geared towards 24 episode "seasons" and the sort of rolling annual momentum of a US show. By and large I think we do "A single creator's unique vision" better than the US, maybe even much better (as a system, i'm not claiming anything about how many creators have a unique vision either side of the Atlantic) but the US system is better suited towards quantity and quality (when a show's good). And then there's the money and so on.
(even our commercial channels tend to produce much shorter series than in the US and i've never really been certain why that is, again possibly just the available budgets)
You could argue similarly for Angel: the hero is a (hel-lo?) vampire.
Not so sure about this one a) because vampire heroes (even vampire detective heroes) were around before Angel and b) because for male characters the apparent bad-guy being the goodie, the idea of the "outside man" or "anti-heroic stranger" actually is a trope already (from Westerns - 'The Searchers' among many others - to private eye movies - e.g. 'The Maltese Falcon' - to spy/action films - watched 'Taken' last night and Liam Neeson was very much that sort of anti-heroic character, even though the film didn't necessarily present him that way since it didn't really ask any interesting questions about his role in/worth to society. Not a bad movie, just one note and single layered).
It's no secret though that Buffy was designed to subvert the horror movie cliché of "bubbly blond girl walks into alley and becomes victim" and most episodes flipped something I reckon (one of my early favourites is the subversion of the "evil doll/puppet" trope in 'The Puppet Show').
Saje | January 19, 08:19 CET
None of this is really a problem, so long as the shows come out. I'm just not sure what a season really amounts to anymore.
bobw1o | January 19, 08:38 CET
zz9 | January 19, 08:52 CET
Hasn't the cable model always been different though ? BSG is basically a 20 episode season with a mid-season cliff-hanger (with season 4 split over 18 months to 2 years), likewise the Stargates and then many other cable shows are 12-13 episodes (or maybe 16 e.g. 'Monk', 'Psych', 'Burn Notice' (?)). With network TV (as far as I can tell) it's generally 20-24 per season ('Lost' is a special case I think).
Either way, even a short season on US TV is still (generally) longer than a full series of UK TV (Spooks, Survivors, Primeval, The Fixer, Life on Mars, The Office, The IT Crowd etc.) and the budgets higher.
Saje | January 19, 09:00 CET
@theonetruebix | January 19, 09:08 CET
Saje | January 19, 09:11 CET
Video, please. I've heard a lot of talk about goose juggling, but seen nothing to substantiate it.
Yeah, finish it. I wish I'd read that and taken it to heart back when I thought I could write.
dreamlogic | January 19, 09:12 CET
BSG Season 4 will be finished within 12ish months of when it began, and is 22 episodes. It's loong "hiatus" being due to the WGA strike. The show would have finished in the summer if they'd kept going, and for whatever reason they've never aired new episodes in the summer, so they prolly held off until '09 for that.
bobw1o | January 19, 09:15 CET
bobw1o | January 19, 09:38 CET
"You have one goal: to connect with your audience. Therefore, you must track what your audience is feeling at all times. One of the biggest problems I face when watching other people’s movies is I’ll say, ‘This part confuses me’, or whatever, and they’ll say, ‘What I’m intending to say is this’, and they’ll go on about their intentions. None of this has anything to do with my experience as an audience member."
Dana5140 | January 19, 09:40 CET
Eh, it was delayed by the strike, like everything else. But it finished shooting in Summer '08, I think. The loongness has more to do with Scifi channel decisions than external factors, I believe.
dreamlogic | January 19, 09:53 CET
"The length of a film should be directly related to the endurance of the human bladder."
JMaloney | January 19, 10:06 CET
I think it was just a throwaway anecdote from the "Surprise/Innocence" commentary, talking about how he originally tried filming the "You were a pro" scene elsewhere but moved it to Angel's bedroom. It's almost too simple and obvious, but it's a mistake I notice all the time now.
And of course there's the purple corollary: if you want to truly hurt someone, do it in pillow talk.
Aurec | January 19, 10:49 CET
the ones you knew exactly how they go because you've seen them a thousand times
I'm introducing a friend to BTVS (we're almost to the end of Season 3), and it's so funny because she keeps making pronouncements about what's going to happen next, and she's always wrong.
jcs | January 19, 11:21 CET
zeitgeist | January 19, 11:41 CET
@theonetruebix | January 19, 12:04 CET
zeitgeist | January 19, 12:18 CET
By that Wikipedia definition BTW, I think I may be a "reader response guy" too ;).
ETA: I, however, was attempting some sort of humor (vainly) regarding the exceptions.
Ah, sorry bobw10, I missed that completely, mea partly culpa ;).
[ edited by Saje on 2009-01-19 21:43 ]
Saje | January 19, 12:41 CET
"Finish it", yeah, absolutely...But also "Everybody has a reason to live", and every character must be allowed to be what it is, is a beautiful concept, and really Joss is a master of it..
Also, "Listen" and "Don't listen", as he states it..is just the perfect advice!!
JotheCat | January 19, 13:14 CET
zeitgeist | January 19, 14:06 CET
because, to me, everyone brings who they are, their memories/expectations etc. to any interpretation of what they see/read/experience so if the choice is between one or the other, I feel like I tend more to some kind of reader response. That said, I also think it's a bit daft to say texts contain no information inherently or never contain any objective information and i've a feeling if I actually read most of what reader-response critics had to say i'd be throwing books across rooms left right and centre so maybe there's a "third way" which i'm going to call (apologies upfront for the jargon) "making it up as I go along" ;).
Saje | January 19, 14:23 CET
I sooo agree with that sentiment. Anyone else ever spent any time trying to figure out how "The Dukes of Hazzard" could have been actually interesting? Seriously.
The original first six episodes were completely different from what the show turned into. Those episodes were grittier, the characters were meaner, and their lives felt more like the impoverished rural America of the 70's instead of the patronizing stereotypes they ended up portraying. (At least the rural area I'm familiar with -- Southeastern Appalachian Ohio.) No comment on the "movie."
Ummm, maybe that's just me then.
BreathesStory | January 19, 14:27 CET
zeitgeist | January 19, 14:36 CET
'Dukes of Hazzard' could've been more of a comment on the real rural south, class difference, income gaps etc. But how would they have got the horn into it ?
Saje | January 19, 14:38 CET
On the other hand, I was never able to find anything I could relate to in the few minutes of the Dukes of Hazzard I ever saw--regardless of what it was trying to say. My response was always to turn it off. :P
palehorse | January 19, 15:00 CET
ETA: palehores, actually I am not sure reader response theory does require the communication to be clear; it says that we help in constructing meaning. I see this in shipping wars, where some people read a relation one way, others another. There are people who, despite seeing Grissom leave CSI and travel to Costa Rica to find Sara Sidle and kiss her passionately, still feel that Grissom's true love is Lady Heather, and there are others who feel it is still Catherine Willows- despite what they see on screen! And if Carol Mendelson tells them that GSR is real and forever, it still won't matter. Without inciting a flame war, think of it this way: Spuffy or Bangel? You can argue both, based on how you read the text... and despite whatever Joss may have intended.
[ edited by Dana5140 on 2009-01-20 00:32 ]
Dana5140 | January 19, 15:28 CET
Celluloid Novelist | January 19, 15:39 CET
I'm sure it was much more intelligent before the execs lobotomized it and turned it into a campy kids show. Sadly that was the fate of lot of '70s TV.
Aurec | January 19, 16:03 CET
JossIzBoss | January 19, 16:18 CET
After thinking about it I went and found this site TV Tropes.
If you look under "Narrative Tropes" you will find an entry for "Applied Phlebotinum" which when followed has a nice little credit for David Greenwalt. : )
Fascinating site.
BreathesStory | January 19, 18:06 CET
Aurec | January 19, 18:42 CET
My friend is directing a movie which I'm going to act in and serve as producer on. Then it's my turn to direct. His movie is set in one location and with not much in the way of action. Mine goes all over the place and has a man get into a fistfight with Death. There is no way in which I know how to think small. :-)
UnpluggedCrazy | January 19, 19:22 CET
If nothing else about this response pleases anyone, please be happy for me I've learned how to quote!
Battlestar finished shooting in April or May as I recall, pretty sure Tahmoh was done before shooting the original Dollhouse Pilot, which is why I said they would have finished airing in summer if they had kept going. So I think we are on the same page there. So yes, at that point it is Sci-Fi's decision that the rest did not air until now. I said that as well, but not nearly so clearly as you. |-)~
My point was that if it weren't for the strike, the entire season 4 could have aired BEFORE summer if they so chose. Season 4 was supposed to start in January, but got pushed back to the beginning of April once the strike hit. Even if they had aired the shot episodes on time, they would have had to wait for new scripts after the strike (the next episode to air is the first one of these new scripts, as "Sometimes a Great Notion" was the last script finished before the strike and shot during the strike) So regardless of pushing the first ten episodes, the last ten would have finished in summer time, and again, BSG has never aired new episodes in the summer, for whatever reason the PTB at Sci-Fi have decided. Without the strike, they could have begun airing in January, and all the way straight through before summer if they had wanted. I don't know if they wanted this or not, it's all just conjecture.
Hmm... and it's all very unimportant I'd wager, as I just remembered again I was just poking fun at the weirdness of TV seasons these days. |-)~
Also, to clarify my earlier comment, Season 4 is a 22 episode run counting Razor, which is how Sci-Fi is counting it. WEIRD TV seasons!!!
And grats to UnpluggedCrazy, good luck with your movies!
bobw1o | January 19, 20:05 CET
*runs off to finish an outline I've been working of for too long*
crossoverman | January 19, 21:19 CET
[ edited by Gota luv that Buffy on 2009-01-20 11:33 ]
Gota luv that Buffy | January 20, 02:33 CET
pillboxed | January 20, 08:33 CET