Whedonesque : Comments on 18746 : Listen to an online Dollhouse extravaganza.

I really really really want this to be done as a podcast too -- I have to go into work 2.5 hours early and can only listen to the first half hour. :( Please, gossi, pleeeeeeeeeeease!!!!

cabri | January 21, 17:48 CET

We have a Buffy-thon scheduled this evening, so I can't listen to it either (try to convince ten people right before a Buffy season finale that it would be much better to listen to a radio show than see the resolution of the arc...). Some form of mp3 would be very much appreciated.

wiesengrund | January 21, 17:56 CET

Yes, what they said.

snakebyte | January 21, 18:06 CET

Yes, if it's not too much trouble. Class and academic success beckon me!

Knuckleball | January 21, 18:20 CET

It's like we're stuck in old media and you're all about your mePods...

Yes, podcast is the plan, 24 hours after airing is the target.

gossi | January 21, 18:27 CET

Woo! Thank you! :D

Knuckleball | January 21, 18:35 CET

I'll certainly be tuning in. Or alternatively, clicking on a link. It's all good.

redders | January 21, 18:38 CET

Are there spoilers? If so, are they rated mild, medium, or fire-hot?

Sunfire | January 21, 19:02 CET

Hey guys. Is it okay if I rec your link at the Herald today?

menomegirl | January 21, 19:03 CET

Thank you, gossi :)

cabri | January 21, 19:09 CET

Hm, I wonder if I'll be able to play it from work. Sometimes they lock out the good things. :(

swanjun | January 21, 19:18 CET

Link away, the idea is to get people involved.

Spoilers - mild. Cast will talk about their characters etc, the usual. There are two clips we will be playing that are directly from the show and say more than we knew. But they don't spoil the show, they just deal with the setup 'o the Dollhouse.

We start in 40 mins, exciting!

gossi | January 21, 19:22 CET

Thanks, gossi.

menomegirl | January 21, 19:25 CET

Cool beans. I feel like, by listening to stuff on the internet I am experiencing the future. It's not flying cars but it's pretty cool.

Saje | January 21, 19:26 CET

The station studio is from the past. Seriously, it makes Battlestar look like the Enterprise if built by Shaft. But I loves it.

gossi | January 21, 19:32 CET

Heh, better make sure you've a spare elastic band then, just in case ;).

Saje | January 21, 19:42 CET

Mild is good. I suppose that means you won't be playing the pilot audio in its entirely while describing the action onscreen then. Which leads me to ask, why not? Don't you love us?

Sunfire | January 21, 19:45 CET

Mild is about as hot as I like my spoilers (though i'm more flexible on curry and mannered-ness).

Saje | January 21, 19:50 CET

Okay - I'm listening....10mins to go :D.

bubblecat | January 21, 19:51 CET

I feel like a little kid. I ran home from school today to make sure I got here in time to listen to this. I'm so happy right now.

ETA: It's supposed to be the news right now, right? 'Cause that's what I'm hearing.

[ edited by Jobo on 2009-01-21 20:02 ]

Jobo | January 21, 19:51 CET

Jobo: I'm hearing the news too.

I was wondering about that myself.

EDIT: Hehe. Started. XD

[ edited by druzilla on 2009-01-21 20:04 ]

druzilla | January 21, 20:02 CET

Oh, here we go!

Jobo | January 21, 20:04 CET

I'm now hearing a song that goes "Uh-oh, there you go," and the lady just said it was 3min past 6.

swanjun | January 21, 20:05 CET

We can hear you gossi man ;).

Saje | January 21, 20:06 CET

Very Aussie sounding :)

chazman | January 21, 20:06 CET

I can hear you guys, starts and stops a bit, but its just my computer, which is old and sucks.

edcsLover9 | January 21, 20:07 CET

Aussie?

snot monster from outer space | January 21, 20:07 CET

I think I'm just hearing the demo thing. I only see one player option on the page.

swanjun | January 21, 20:08 CET

So I gather so far that Dollhouse is about two people arguing with each other?

The One True b!X | January 21, 20:09 CET

You guys are fully qualified to run a morning show in the U.S. now.

Sunfire | January 21, 20:10 CET

Conflict makes great drama and talk radio.

Very Aussie sounding :)

The new improved Australia, with added cold, greyness and rain (man, sometimes I really wish I could hear British accents as a foreigner - Aussie, really ? ;).

Saje | January 21, 20:10 CET

I always thought he was a Scouser.

Simon | January 21, 20:12 CET

Dey do dat don’t dey?

Caroline | January 21, 20:12 CET

mine restarted and went back to the news :(

edcsLover9 | January 21, 20:13 CET

Doesn't sound Australian to me. I like to think I can distinguish between British accents a bit better than the average American, but what do I know.

Rachelkachel | January 21, 20:13 CET

They don't sound Aussie to me. Speaking of which, is there a name for the specific kind of accent Olivia Williams has?

Sunfire | January 21, 20:13 CET

I only hear British accents when NPR broadcasts the BBC. So it sounds like two BBC anchors suddenly got very snipey and goofy. Which is hilarious to me.

Jobo | January 21, 20:13 CET

Aussie by way of Liverpool maybe? ;)

chazman | January 21, 20:13 CET

It sounds 'Northern' to me. Leeds?

Caroline | January 21, 20:15 CET

Definitely northern England--but that's about where my Henry Higgins powers fail me.

snot monster from outer space | January 21, 20:15 CET

I'm thinking Manchester bound.

Simon | January 21, 20:15 CET

Ah--the North West! Probably Darwin ;-)

snot monster from outer space | January 21, 20:17 CET

Mild Lancashire accents to me. Not quite "ah tho'" enough for Manchester.

So it sounds like two BBC anchors suddenly got very snipey and goofy. Which is hilarious to me.

Nowadays you do hear regional accents on the BBC, 20 years ago you'd never have two folk from Lancashire or thereabouts on a BBC show, unless it was about farmers.

(they are funny though)

*googles "Red Riding"*

That sounds pretty cool. Paddy Considine rocks so very hard.

... is there a name for the specific kind of accent Olivia Williams has?

Posh ;-).

(from what I remember she speaks in Received Pronunciation which is as much a class thing as geography but is way more common in the south east of England)

Saje | January 21, 20:17 CET

Whatever the case, they sound evil. British people are always evil.

The One True b!X | January 21, 20:18 CET

Yep, they're both Northern....the Northerners! I'm British, and I know them and that's about as much as I can help!(Sorry Kirsty and Kev, I'm a bad friend)!

bubblecat | January 21, 20:20 CET

I'm thinking "pure Dollhouse on the radio" was a leetle bit of an oversell.

snot monster from outer space | January 21, 20:20 CET

... and smarter. Brits always sound smarter than Americans. ; >

QuoterGal | January 21, 20:21 CET

So far this is not "all about Dollverse, the new Fox show from Buffy creator Joss Whedon", as endofshow.com says. Also, the show is called Dollhouse, not Dollverse.

Just sayin'.

The One True b!X | January 21, 20:22 CET

Thanks Saje. I was labeling it as "posh" in my head but considered it my awkward American mental shorthand, which also includes informed categories such as "kind of like Paul McCartney" and "sounds vaguely Scottish but probably isn't."

Sunfire | January 21, 20:24 CET

Well, that's no worse than "Either Brooklyn or everywhere else in America" ;).

So far this is not "all about Dollverse, the new Fox show from Buffy creator Joss Whedon", as endofshow.com says. Also, the show is called Dollhouse, not Dollverse.

That's just the kind of thing a Briton would say. Hands off our evil !

(evil is smarter though, that's why it keeps winning)

[ edited by Saje on 2009-01-21 20:26 ]

Saje | January 21, 20:24 CET

I got mentioned on the radio!!!!!!

Simon | January 21, 20:26 CET

And Sunfire.

Are you guys still gonna talk to the little people now ?

Saje | January 21, 20:26 CET

What no tweets?

Caroline | January 21, 20:26 CET

This clip is AMAZING.

Jayme | January 21, 20:27 CET

I got mentioned too! Um. No. That was just a character. Named after me. I'm just going to believe that.

Caroline | January 21, 20:27 CET

That was all kinds of awesome.

redders | January 21, 20:28 CET

Pssh it's just the internet radio here.

Yes I guess that confirms the name pretty well. Wow, what a scene.

Sunfire | January 21, 20:28 CET

Whee clip! Very exciting.

Rachelkachel | January 21, 20:28 CET

(evil is smarter though, that's why it keeps winning)

"So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph because good is dumb."

JMaloney | January 21, 20:28 CET

Ooooooooh! Spoliers - LOVE IT! Want to talk about it now though.

bubblecat | January 21, 20:28 CET

Oh wow, Dollhouse opens with normal Caroline. That's unexpected.

Didn't know if I should mark.

[ edited by Jobo on 2009-01-21 20:29 ]

Jobo | January 21, 20:28 CET

In general, doesn't it seem like Olivia as "Adelle" is pitching her voice lower than originally? I like it. It's a little more ominous.

QuoterGal | January 21, 20:29 CET

Deep + British = super super evil.

Sunfire | January 21, 20:30 CET

Ominously smartly evil.

Great clip, emotive even without seeing it.

Saje | January 21, 20:31 CET

Ugh. Technical faults. I'm fairly sure I've heard most of it anyway.

Jayme | January 21, 20:32 CET

It could be voice-clip roulette. Go for it. It'll be more off-kilter and mind-wipey.

QuoterGal | January 21, 20:32 CET

Maybe you've got it on shuffle gossi ?

Saje | January 21, 20:32 CET

Harry Lennix could play Barack Obama in a biopic.

Caroline | January 21, 20:36 CET

Dollhouse prices. I've not thought about them. I wonder what they're like? Huh.

QuoterGal | January 21, 20:36 CET

I was just thinking that about how much of an Obama soundalike he was.

snot monster from outer space | January 21, 20:36 CET

Now there's an Aussie accent.

Simon | January 21, 20:37 CET

Hey--there's an Aussie!

ETA: snap!

[ edited by snot monster from outer space on 2009-01-21 20:38 ]

snot monster from outer space | January 21, 20:37 CET

I'm glad these two aren't in charge of Topher's personality implant equipment.

The One True b!X | January 21, 20:39 CET

"Which is fun"--that's English for "I wish to kill you, and then commit suicide after having hunted down the maker of this CD player and tortured them to death."

snot monster from outer space | January 21, 20:39 CET

Joss!!

Simon | January 21, 20:40 CET

It's true, we speak in code. "Nice weather" for instance means "If it rained any more we would both drown where we stand".

ETA: Holy shit, I just put 'we' when you were talking about the English. Sorry Dad, in keeping with the old ways, I will now batter myself to death with the ceremonial bagpipes of death.

Now there's an Aussie accent.

It sounds milder than I remember from 'Neighbours' though. Has she maybe lost it a wee bit ?

[ edited by Saje on 2009-01-21 20:43 ]

Saje | January 21, 20:41 CET

I must say Enver has a hot voice. I still ask myself where they were hiding him. I have seen no interview with him anywhere, but now I at least heard him. =)

Donnie | January 21, 20:42 CET

Yeah. If you ever hear this exchange:

"Nice weather"
"Which is fun."

Run.

snot monster from outer space | January 21, 20:43 CET

Does Dichen Lachman speak in an Aussie accent in Dollhouse (presumably only when non-programmed)?

snot monster from outer space | January 21, 20:45 CET

Affirmitive acting. Heh.

Caroline | January 21, 20:46 CET

Huh. It never occurred to me that we're in for months of reporters getting every single name wrong.

The One True b!X | January 21, 20:47 CET

"Her name's Nurple"?

I must have misheard that.

snot monster from outer space | January 21, 20:48 CET

In response to the banter: I think the Tahmoh difference is which syllable to emphasize. Properly, one emphasizes the second. But most people just do the first.

But maybe I misheard.

Jobo | January 21, 20:49 CET

That's weird, I heard the correct emphasis in the opposite direction. But I also was only half listening.

The One True b!X | January 21, 20:50 CET

So it's Tah-moh rather than Tah-moh ? Must admit they sounded pretty similar to me.

Saje | January 21, 20:51 CET

"This kind of serenity."

The One True b!X | January 21, 20:55 CET

tv.com says: "Tahmoh Penikett: (How to pronounce his name) I'll tell you how to pronounce my name. It's Tah - Môh, that's the proper pronunciation, Tah - Môh."

So...stress on the second syllable, I guess. I can't say his pronunciation made it all that clear--he seemed to be giving equal stress to both syllables.

snot monster from outer space | January 21, 20:55 CET

Watch out for strangely aligned pots.

Saje | January 21, 20:56 CET

"Suck-oop."

Heh.

QuoterGal | January 21, 20:56 CET

"She also has asthma," makes me smile.

Jobo | January 21, 20:59 CET

"She also has asthma."

And people are saying the show's not funny?

JMaloney | January 21, 20:59 CET

Yay, excellent fictional science. Also excellent Topher.

Sunfire | January 21, 20:59 CET

That's a big thing.

redders | January 21, 20:59 CET

Oh - didn't know that about the personalities - warts and all.

Huh.

QuoterGal | January 21, 21:00 CET

This aspect of Topher crafting a patchwork personality and actually giving the actives neuroses and hang-ups is new (and cool) to me. Opposite to Radio gossi i'd just assumed they were all copies of real people.

Saje | January 21, 21:00 CET

Can I be chuffed that I called that one Quoter? Go on, let me, it doesn't happen often!

bubblecat | January 21, 21:02 CET

And in other news, the world is turning to shit. Now back to 'Dollhouse' stuff.

Saje | January 21, 21:02 CET

ooh, the whole based on real people thing is cool. :D And kinda makes sense. lol.

The asthma thingy made me smile. XD

[ edited by druzilla on 2009-01-21 21:04 ]

druzilla | January 21, 21:02 CET

Does Dichen Lachman speak in an Aussie accent in Dollhouse (presumably only when non-programmed)?

I think she has an American accent on the show...

wasnt sure if that was a spoiler or not, it could be so i hid it.

edcsLover9 | January 21, 21:03 CET

Topher as identity DJ.

The One True b!X | January 21, 21:03 CET

Actually that "personality mash-up" idea is interesting. Perhaps one of the things that will "trigger" Caroline's identity-crisis (so to speak) will be if they use part of her "wiped" personality to imprint her?

snot monster from outer space | January 21, 21:06 CET

bubblecat: "Can I be chuffed that I called that one Quoter? Go on, let me, it doesn't happen often!"

Chuff away, bubblecat - good for you, then.

I'm not sure what I think about this, though - I was sorta picturing traits & skills on a menu, more like Matrix - because unless you can identify traits in particular, wouldn't this be totally unworkable - wouldn't there be huge trait surprises?

QuoterGal | January 21, 21:07 CET

Yeah, I've been pondering that idea, too, snot.

[ edited by The One True b!X on 2009-01-21 21:07 ]

The One True b!X | January 21, 21:07 CET

"IT arrogance."

Oh, gods.

*runs*

QuoterGal | January 21, 21:08 CET

huge trait surprises

That's what worries me. It worries me mostly from the point of view of becoming a far too easy plot point. "Oh no, the Active is running amok because we overlooked the "abused child" part of his/her imprinting!!"

snot monster from outer space | January 21, 21:09 CET

I was sorta picturing traits & skills on a menu, more like Matrix - because unless you can identify traits in particular, wouldn't this be totally unworkable - wouldn't there be huge trait surprises?

Maybe that's the thing, though. The process isn't purely mechanistic and programmatic, else one wouldn't need an actual person (Topher) to make it happen. Anyone could just push the necessary buttons.

Maybe it's more of an art and a craft than merely a highly-advanced form of data entry. It could be part of what's being said about what it means to be a person: They might be able to wipe and imprint identities and personalities, but even being able to do that, it's not just a matter of ticking off checkboxes. You need someone to carefully craft the personality to imprint.

[ edited by The One True b!X on 2009-01-21 21:11 ]

The One True b!X | January 21, 21:09 CET

I'm thinking more of a fan-art approach, you take what you're downloaded before and make something newish? Don't know, I sort of thought that it added a new element of possible wrong to it. I mean, I'll never look at those metal-scanners in airports quite the same way!

[ edited by bubblecat on 2009-01-21 21:13 ]

bubblecat | January 21, 21:10 CET

Maybe it's ore of an art and a craft than merely a highly-advanced form of data entry.

Is that a deliberate Galaxy Quest reference?

snot monster from outer space | January 21, 21:10 CET

Is that a deliberate Galaxy Quest reference?

Alas, no.

I mean-- Of course it is! I'm so clever that way!

The One True b!X | January 21, 21:11 CET

It's deliberate now !

Actually that "personality mash-up" idea is interesting.

Maybe, though I disagree with DJ Kirsty since i'd say they'd get a lot of the dregs turning up to become actives (only physically sound). If you had real skills, why spend 5 years wiped ?

Chuff away, bubblecat

Oh, that's so wrong over here. Not touching that one ;).

And Topher has that IT rightness I think she means. PBCK. Problem Between Chair and Keyboard ;).

Saje | January 21, 21:12 CET

Streamys aren't voting yet, only nominating.

The One True b!X | January 21, 21:14 CET

I disagree with DJ Kirsty since i'd say they'd get a lot of the dregs turning up to become actives

I agree that the idea that ALL the skills of the Actives would come from the wiped Active personality pool. That seemed unlikely. But that they might use bits and pieces of those personalities as well as others does interest me as a possible complication.

snot monster from outer space | January 21, 21:14 CET

Yeah, true. And I guess they'd get quite a few criminals so e.g. safe-cracker skills might be "mashed" from pre-actives.

Saje | January 21, 21:16 CET

Okay Saje...I had to look it up! I had no idea, oh dear!

bubblecat | January 21, 21:16 CET

One of those words with another slang meaning ;).

Saje | January 21, 21:18 CET

We weren't worried about the performance of Heroes. We were worried about the fact that its writing had collapsed into nonsense.

The One True b!X | January 21, 21:19 CET

This new idea bears thinking about - because it's actually gotten more interesting to me. I've thought about this, as I've said, a little Matrix-y, and also a bit MPD/DID, where the actives, evern when imprinted, were sortof depleted persons.

Now they stand to be more interesting, imo - but Topher's role changes in a way that makes him even more creepy.

Ah, I (now) see what you mean - thanks, Saje - I have learned *gulp* much.

QuoterGal | January 21, 21:20 CET

So, after they have used a particular configuration (mix, if you will) of personalities for a job, what happens to it? Is it just erased? Are the individual parts de-integrated somehow and updated (so the next time you use the personality with the safecracking skill, or whatever, it will have mroe experience)? Or, are they stored for further use later (stored intact in some way so that they would actually have the memories of the last activation)?

What if our little resident DJ takes a liking to a particular mix and keeps it (against Dollhouse policy?) to re-activate occasionally for company? Or, is that just too Warren-y (or Mr. Universe-y, if you prefer)? (Come to think of it, Dollhouse is perhaps just the most realized manifestation of this little trope/obsession of Joss's.) (And, does one even want to contemplate the parallels of a brilliant/geeky writer/director writing roles for beautiful actresses?)

So many questions! So many possibilities!

[ edited by Septimus on 2009-01-21 21:35 ]

Septimus | January 21, 21:23 CET

How long does this show go on for?

Caroline | January 21, 21:25 CET

I was sorta picturing traits & skills on a menu, more like Matrix

My impression is that Topher's working with a combination of some premixed combinations of traits based on real people as well as individual traits both to make the end result more realistic (read: Dolls not passing as real is a huge security threat) and to make his job manageable. Start with a prefab set of traits close to what you want and then mix and match some individual traits to complete it. It's not really like the Matrix because you're not ordering Neo mad fighting skills off a menu. You're creating Neo entirely out of whole cloth. That would be an overwhelming task unless Topher had some realistic prefab stuff to start with.

And it makes sense-- we're always breaking people down into categories and types. This is the reverse-- you know you want a hostage negotiator, so pick a personality of a type you know is best for that from your database and then tinker with it to customize it to the specific situation.

Plus even thought individual traits may sound manageable to assemble individually, memory is a whole other problem. You'd need lots and lots of memories just to fill in enough background history for someone working among real people for a few hours or days. Everything from how did my parents train me to interact in social situations to do I know how to type with home row keys. We reference memories constantly in the present. I don't think you could create a full internal history other than mixing up pre-existing memories from real people. Fabricating it, even if technically possible, would take forever. And I expect the emotional resonance of real memories probably works way better even if they can make new fake memories.

Sunfire | January 21, 21:25 CET

Til 9 pm I think Caroline.

Are the individual parts de-integrated somehow and updated (so the next time you use the personality with the safecracking skill, or whatever, it will have mroe experience)?

Technical skills at least would need to be kept up to date, which either means acquiring new updated imprints or "saving" the experiences. Or they could even train while imprinted and then save the training ?

Saje | January 21, 21:26 CET

Wait a minute, there's no Santa ?

Saje | January 21, 21:31 CET

We pick because we care.

Saje | January 21, 21:33 CET

I believe they just challenged Joss Whedon to a verbal duel. That was unwise.

Sunfire | January 21, 21:34 CET

Hahahaha - the wombles!

bubblecat | January 21, 21:35 CET

I do wish, radio-wise, that they would decide whether to speak loudly or mumble, so I could set my volume in one place.

The One True b!X | January 21, 21:36 CET

Uncle Bulgaria was a fictional stand-in for Karl Marx. True fact.

I believe they just challenged Joss Whedon to a verbal duel.

Well, feisty DJ Kirsty did.

Saje | January 21, 21:37 CET

memory is a whole other problem. You'd need lots and lots of memories just to fill in enough background history for someone working among real people for a few hours or days.

Yeah--this will require a lot of hand-waving, I think. I think it would be fun if sometimes the Actives just have huge "missing" pieces of a normal personality. That is, if you hire an Active to be a safecracker, you presumably don't need them to be able to talk about their formative years. Could lead to some interesting (and amusing) situations if the situations get a little pear-shaped and you have an Active having to make small-talk when they literally don't have any.

snot monster from outer space | January 21, 21:40 CET

Sort of like watching Dexter try to act normal.

Ms Lachman sounds more Aussie now, must just've been that snippet earlier.

Saje | January 21, 21:42 CET

Hmmm. Going back to accents for a second: listening to Dichen Lachman, that's a fairly "posh" Aussie accent (not all that surprising if she's from Adelaide). I wouldn't be at all surprised if she broadens in considerably on Neighbours.

snot monster from outer space | January 21, 21:42 CET

If you listen to e.g. Claudia Black, she only rarely sounds "big ceety" Aussie, a lot of the time she sounds kind of English ("mid-Pacific" ?). Might be a function of putting on other accents, maybe you have to shave the edges off a bit ?

Saje | January 21, 21:45 CET

Well, there's also the effect of speaking to people who can get confused by your native accent. Almost all Commonwealth English speakers will move in a more RP direction when speaking to Americans because you'll get a lot fewer puzzled looks.

snot monster from outer space | January 21, 21:50 CET

I'm looking forward to the episode where they all get downloaded with the same personality as the machine goes wonky. Cue "I'm Sparticus" moments.

bubblecat | January 21, 21:51 CET

*trips over lower lip* Waahh, I was unable to listen at the workplace. Just look at all that I've missed!

m'cookies actual | January 21, 21:54 CET

gossi's doing a podcast m'cookies, don't picnic ;).

Almost all Commonwealth English speakers will move in a more RP direction when speaking to Americans because you'll get a lot fewer puzzled looks.

Really ? Not noticed that much but then I wouldn't have, being unAmerican ;).

(assuming you're including the UK - obviously technically a Commonwealth country ;) - I don't do that, though I do avoid slang and make an effort to clean my diction up a bit. Still sounds like me though, just me at the vicarage, if I ever went to vicarages ;)

Saje | January 21, 21:57 CET

Cue "I'm Sparticus" moments.

Or, as per conversation above about the potential source of the identity components, "No, I'm Caroline!"

The One True b!X | January 21, 21:58 CET

just me at the vicarage

Isn't "you at the vicarage" exactly a slightly more RP-ized version of your normal accent?

[ edited by snot monster from outer space on 2009-01-21 22:08 ]

snot monster from outer space | January 21, 21:58 CET

There can be only one. *wields massive sword*

Caroline | January 21, 22:01 CET

Heh, quite Caroline ;).

RP is an English accent snot monster. I'm from the nicer bit of Britain, just north of England ;).

[ edited by Saje on 2009-01-21 22:03 ]

Saje | January 21, 22:01 CET

Now there's a show - "Saje at the Vicarage."

Yeah, I'm gonna have to grab the podcast, myself - had to disappear for a quick meeting wif a client. Missed a bunch of clips, I think.

Pushy clients - don't they understand I have priorities?

(Thanks, Kirsty and Kev - I thought you guys were a-dorable and interesting, even the bickering. The roughness works, as far as I'm concerned.)

QuoterGal | January 21, 22:04 CET

Saje wears haggisessess..what is the plural of haggis?

bubblecat | January 21, 22:07 CET

RP is an English accent

Well, yes. And? Most regional English accents (including Aussie, Kiwi, Irish etc.) move on a sliding scale from most "regional" (the way you talk down at the pub with your mates, say) to something that tones down the regional/class markers and moves a little more in the direction of RP (the way your talk in a job-interview). Americans don't get exposed to a lot of strong regional dialects of English other than the various American varieties, but they do hear quite a lot of what might once have been called "BBC English"--so you tend to find (at least, I have) that if you slide to the more RP end of your scale you get a lot less of both "gee, your accent sure is cute" and "six? sex? sucks?" responses.

If your "vicarage" voice isn't closer to RP than your normal speaking voice you are (sociolinguistically speaking) highly aberrant.

snot monster from outer space | January 21, 22:11 CET

what is the plural of haggis?

Ah, the eternal question. There've actually been several wars fought over just that bubblecat, sometimes the haggi lobby gets the upper hand, sometimes it's the haggises. Basically no-one agrees. The collective noun is "a boiling" though, that was settled in the Great Haggis Hunt of 1614.

The roughness works, as far as I'm concerned.

Yeah DJ Kirsty has that right I think, it's the raggedy edge of live broadcast, that's where you get the spontaneous little nuggets. Good dynamic that, cool, funny kinda chalk and cheese thing going on.

[ edited by Saje on 2009-01-21 22:13 ]

Saje | January 21, 22:11 CET

If your "vicarage" voice isn't closer to RP than your normal speaking voice you are (sociolinguistically speaking) highly aberrant.

Err, no snot monster, as i'm telling you, i'm just Scottish ;). When I speak "properly" for instance my vowels don't get any longer (as they would with RP), I just enunciate more clearly and drop slang.

ETA: I.e. a well spoken Scottish accent isn't some variation of RP (which, while also well spoken, is English).

[ edited by Saje on 2009-01-21 22:16 ]

Saje | January 21, 22:14 CET

I must have been doing it wrong! OMG, no wonder I got those looks when I went to Scotland...

A boiling Saje? You mean it's not deep fried? ;)

bubblecat | January 21, 22:15 CET

Even when we deep fry them we call it a boiling. None of us will violate that law, it's tradition ;).

(it's one of those recent traditions that I just made up but you never know, it might catch on ;)

Saje | January 21, 22:19 CET

"Posh" Scottish accents share far more features with RP than, say, working class Scottish accents. I'm not saying you suddenly sound like the Queen delivering her Birthday Message. I'm saying that what you call "enunciating more clearly" will involve a slight de-regionalization of your accent--unless, as I say, you are sociolinguistically aberrant (as, for example, if you're a Scottish nationalist who makes a point of maintaining as distinctively "Scottish" an accent as possible at all times).

ETA: what you're calling "well-spoken" in your edited addition, by the way, is--I suspect--exactly those features which are RP-like. There's no such thing as a neutral, non-regional, classless "well-speaking." Someone who speaks with the strongest Glaswegian accent is perfectly "well-spoken" in that accent. When they go to a job-interview at a posh-restaurant, though, and try self-consciously to be "well-spoken" then the accent they'll slide towards is one that shares many more features with RP.

[ edited by snot monster from outer space on 2009-01-21 22:23 ]

snot monster from outer space | January 21, 22:20 CET

Ah, OK, I think I get you. You're saying that pronouncing t's for instance is a property of RP so if you pronounce t's (that you might otherwise drop) then your speech is closer to RP (because it shares a property of RP that it previously didn't) ? Yeah, can't argue with that, that seems true by definition.

I guess I just don't agree with the gist of "in the direction of" since embedded within it seems to be the idea that the more well-spoken you are the closer you get to RP, when, in fact, as you say, RP is as much an accent as broad Govan and only prejudice makes it "proper" (or considers it well-spoken). I.e. you can enunciate perfectly in a Scottish accent (what I mean by well-spoken) and not lengthen vowels etc. (as you must to have an RP accent) or sound, in any sense, more English.

(to put it another way, a Welsh accent with t's clearly enunciated shares that property with a Scottish accent with t's clearly enunciated but I doubt anyone would claim that that makes it more "in the direction of" that Scottish accent)

Saje | January 21, 22:44 CET

Sure, it's a prejudice--but it's one with a long history that has shaped our social and linguistic practices. It's not just by chance that when someone in Sydney wants to sound "well-spoken" they speak in an accent that is a lot closer to someone in Delhi trying to sound "well spoken" and someone in Wellington trying to sound "well-spoken" and someone in Dublin trying to sound "well-spoken" than the accent they speak in their everyday lives.

You say that you're just "enunciating the t's that you'd otherwise drop." Well, sure: but that doesn't mean that you pronounce the "t" in "listen" or "whistle" or "Christmas," right? Or the "b" in "plumber" or the "h" in "honest." Or, more to the point, if you're a scouse and you want to sound "posh" you don't do so by giving extra clear emphasis to that "g" sound in "singer," do you?

The RP-like aspects of "vicarage" (or "job interview") accents have nothing to do with speaking "more precisely" (which is just a flip side of the old canard that regional accents are "lazy"--one of those bizarre claims you see repeated all the time and which never seems to ask why it is that "lazy" speakers in New York end up sounding nothing at all like "lazy" speakers in Glasgow. For every "shortcut" regional dialects take, they are always adding detours as well [like that hard "g" in the scouse "ng" which is clearly "more effort" than the RP version]). They have to do with widespread cultural notions of what is "proper" and "improper" English which go back to the enormous social and political power that once accrued to people who went to Eton and Harrow and on to Oxford and Cambridge.

snot monster from outer space | January 21, 23:12 CET

For those who heard the opening song, how was it ?

Jayme | January 21, 23:16 CET

I was just going to mention that it is curious that you refer to Australians, Scottish, Irish, Welsh, etc. that are trying to sound more "well-spoken" move toward sounding more RP. I wonder why American English does not seem to follow that trend. There is a more generalized non-regional "American" accent though that is perhaps similar in a fashion to RP (and it definitely isn't Brooklyn, heh). I dunno'. I'm American so maybe I just don't hear it. Interesting topic (even though it has little to do with Dollhouse ;).

JossIzBoss | January 22, 00:06 CET

From what I heard (mostly towards the end, and I was thrilled I caught Joss' song from Commentary!), it was awesome. Some good info, and I thought it was quite funny, and I never listen to radio that is just talking. I figured they were from the North as well, though I'm guessing not from the same area as say Sean Bean, whose accent is pretty unintelligible at times.

SteppeMerc | January 22, 00:13 CET

Well I missed all the fun (darn work!), so I'll have to catch the podcast. And after reading this fascinating thread I'm just all on tenterhooks to hear gossi & Kirsty's accents. :)

jcs | January 22, 00:25 CET

Can't wait for the podcast hopefully tomorrow. I'm dying to hear this.

hitnrun017 | January 22, 00:26 CET

... though I'm guessing not from the same area as say Sean Bean, whose accent is pretty unintelligible at times.

I'd guess they're from about 50-ish miles away from Sheffield (where Sean Bean's from). Welcome to the wonderful world of British accents (and, err, "compact" geography ;).

For those who heard the opening song, how was it ?

The opening song to 'Dollhouse' ? I don't think they played it Jayme but nature called once or twice so I might've missed it ;).

The RP-like aspects of "vicarage" (or "job interview") accents have nothing to do with speaking "more precisely"...

Ah, well in that case my accent doesn't change for job interviews (or vicarages ;). All that changes is my dialect if you like (I don't swear, I might use different words etc.) and that I speak more precisely i.e. I "put back in" syllables I might run over in casual conversation (at least partly cos i'll be with people that aren't familiar with my speech patterns and partly because i'm trying to convey the impression that i'm clever - or at least educated - enough to do the job. Which means not saying 'cos' for instance ;). But the way I pronounce syllables doesn't change.

And just to be clear, i've never equated well-spoken with posh (I don't think), that's something you've added snot monster (if you're talking about "trying to sound posh" then I completely agree, most people - certainly in the UK/commonwealth - associate posh with RP and so that's how they'd try to sound).

ETR: two '"'s- it's my dialect that changes, not my "dialect" ;).

[ edited by Saje on 2009-01-22 00:53 ]

Saje | January 22, 00:36 CET

Gossi is a Grimbarian - make of that what you will. He knows what it means, he can pretend he is from, the North West but he's really a Humbersider. The truth will out!

fade2dust | January 22, 00:49 CET

Still, you can't blame him for pretending not to be from the place that puts the 'grim' in up north ;-).

*runs*

Saje | January 22, 00:55 CET

Goodness, I've learned so much.

QuoterGal | January 22, 01:03 CET

The opening song to 'Dollhouse' ? I don't think they played it Jayme but nature called once or twice so I might've missed it ;).

Oh ? Too bad. Thanks for the response, Saje. I'm looking forward to it- No reviewer has discussed it... I don't think; they seem to awkwardly ignore the subject.

Jayme | January 22, 01:23 CET

Hmmm, hopefully the last word on accents (since being from SE Michigan I am entirely accent free :P), I know an Australian in Toronto who is constantly being asked what part of England she's from. I think she's from around Adelaide although it might be Melbourne -- south came into it somewhere, which applies to both for different reasons.

I can't wait for the podcast/mp3/whatever-gossi-makes it! The stupid work meeting wasn't at all worth it, except for the part where they said they weren't going to fire us anytime soon. We liked that part.

cabri | January 22, 01:37 CET

I'm looking forward to it- No reviewer has discussed it... I don't think; they seem to awkwardly ignore the subject.

The screener, according to gossi, has no theme song, just thirty seconds of black with "opening credits" or something. So nobody--well, not nobody, but you know--has heard it yet. I'm looking forward to it immensely.

Jobo | January 22, 02:09 CET

I was just going to mention that it is curious that you refer to Australians, Scottish, Irish, Welsh, etc. that are trying to sound more "well-spoken" move toward sounding more RP. I wonder why American English does not seem to follow that trend. There is a more generalized non-regional "American" accent though that is perhaps similar in a fashion to RP (and it definitely isn't Brooklyn, heh).

Well, broadly speaking I think that accents in America do follow the same trend. There's a reason that you find lots of Canadians in American broadcasting. The "unmarked" American accent (the one that doesn't get read as being "Southern" or "Boston" or "Valley Girl" or what have you) is a lot closer to RP than most "regional" or lower-class American accents. You don't need to go back many generations in America to hear radio or newsreel voices that, to our modern ears, sound like bad stage-'English.'

Of course, there has been a shift over the years. I'd say that the "target" towards which American accents shift when they're trying to "unregionalize" is something like the Network News Anchor accent. It's an interesting thing, actually, that while strong regional accents have become quite common on, say, the BBC, it would still be unthinkable in America to have someone anchor one of the Network News broadcasts who spoke in, say, an Appalachian accent.

Ah, well in that case my accent doesn't change for job interviews (or vicarages ;). All that changes is my dialect if you like (I don't swear, I might use different words etc.) and that I speak more precisely i.e. I "put back in" syllables I might run over in casual conversation (at least partly cos i'll be with people that aren't familiar with my speech patterns and partly because i'm trying to convey the impression that i'm clever - or at least educated - enough to do the job. Which means not saying 'cos' for instance ;). But the way I pronounce syllables doesn't change.

That all may well be true. I've never heard you in either a job interview or down at the pub. But if it is true it would also be true that you are a sociolinguistic oddity. "Oddity" would be putting it incredibly mildly, in fact. Almost every single English speaker in the world "code-switches" to some extent depending on the situation, and that will in almost all cases entail pronunciation changes. Of course, the vast majority do so quite unconsciously and, if asked, would adamantly maintain that they do no such thing. Make of that what you will ;-).

i've never equated well-spoken with posh

Well, again, if not, you're an exception to the overwhelming rule. The vast majority of people if asked to say who, out of two speakers, was more "well-spoken" would pick the one whose accent reflected a higher socio-economic position. More to the point, most of the specific changes you do recognize that you make (not dropping certain letters, not abbreviating certain words etc.) are recognizably attributes of "posher" speech.

(Don't you think that if you were hanging out with your friends in an informal setting and you suddenly began to speak in exactly the way you would speak at the vicarage that one likely response wouldn't be some form of "Oh, I say, aren't we terribly, terribly proper all of a sudden? Are we, perhaps, expecting the Queen?")

snot monster from outer space | January 22, 02:27 CET

OK, I think we've pursued the sociolinguistic discussion sufficiently here. Perhaps we could get back to the topic in hand: Dollhouse. Ta.

SoddingNancyTribe | January 22, 05:25 CET

I see they've put a podcast of the show up so I've added that link to the entry.

Simon | January 22, 08:18 CET

Simon, is there any chance you could change the link to http://feeds.feedburner.com/Dollverse-InsideFoxsDollhouse ? People can play from their browser, then. (iTunes also available from that link).

[ edited by gossi on 2009-01-22 08:20 ]

gossi | January 22, 08:20 CET

Not a problem.

Simon | January 22, 08:22 CET

Heh, guess I can live with being overwhelmingly odd ;).

Gossi, the title specifically mentions "Season 1 Episode 1", does that mean you're gonna talk about every episode (as it airs) on the show ?

Saje | January 22, 10:49 CET

I'm currently listening to it... really enjoying it. Can't wait to see that scene they played of Eliza and Olivia. I was a bit wary of Dichen when she was cast, but hearing the interviews of her talking - she seems so sweet, can't wait to see scenes of her.

Wimpie | January 22, 11:10 CET

Finally getting to listen.

Gossi, I think you sound kinda like David Morrissey. :)

swanjun | January 22, 14:50 CET

Can't wait to be able to talk about this ep more in depth with you all once you've seen it. It really is quite a good pilot and sets up many many episodes to come; I think the majority of you will be quite taken with it. It was great fun listening to gossi and Kirsty go on; good on you, mates, as they say.

zeitgeist | January 22, 15:51 CET

Well, this is about Tahmoh, thus about Dollhouse, though it's also a continuance of the discussion about accents, that I've just gotten in on.

As I understand it, Tahmoh is from the Northwest Territories in Canada. I don't know how he came by it, but he seems to have the single most bland, placeless, typical, featureless North American accent of English that I've ever heard.

dreamlogic | January 22, 15:53 CET

This was such a great show, I'm really excited to see this episode.

Thanks, gossi! (And no, I don't think you should have any form of guilty feelings because of Dollverse.)

wiesengrund | January 22, 16:04 CET

Thanks for getting the podcast up quickly, gossi. It was a really fun program. If Dollhouse gets a second season, you should do another one like this a few weeks before the premiere.

Sunfire | January 22, 16:31 CET

That was really great ! I was beginning to... well not lose interest, but get tired of waiting... and this podcast really made me excited again. Thank you.

Oh, and I think I'm gonna love Enver Gjokaj.

[ edited by Nico-Angel on 2009-01-22 17:42 ]

Nico-Angel | January 22, 17:41 CET

January 21 2009