(SPOILER)
Discuss the first episode of Dollhouse.
Enjoy the experience of watching a brand new Joss Whedon show.
Yes it's the official Whedonesque discussion thread for 'Ghost'.
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UnpluggedCrazy | February 13, 17:02 CET
[ edited by The One True b!X on 2009-02-14 02:04 ]
@theonetruebix | February 13, 17:04 CET
snot monster from outer space | February 13, 17:04 CET
Whereas its midday Saturday 14th here.
Its not even Dollhouse o'clock yet.
DAMN YOU AMERICANS AND YOUR CRAZY LOPSIDED TIME!
Get it together Obama...
aus-mitch | February 13, 17:04 CET
Wait...so you're saying that this show isn't set in New Sunnydale on a terraformed planet in the outer rim?
That's it, I'm out of here!
snot monster from outer space | February 13, 17:06 CET
That's the reaction I'm most dreading. I don't think we'll necessarily be getting that from the majority of folks around here, but I also don't want non-fans tuning in and then tuning out if the first episode's not immediately hooky.
UnpluggedCrazy | February 13, 17:07 CET
Pointy | February 13, 17:07 CET
mirrorshades | February 13, 17:07 CET
Joss: make it available for the internet next time, f*@* Nielsen ratings...
Krusher | February 13, 17:08 CET
That sucks. Commiseration.
snot monster from outer space | February 13, 17:09 CET
mirrorshades | February 13, 17:11 CET
@theonetruebix | February 13, 17:13 CET
NurseBobbi | February 13, 17:17 CET
Pointy | February 13, 17:18 CET
Someone's going in wanting what he misses....;-)
snot monster from outer space | February 13, 17:21 CET
Pointy, I work in Arlington at Marymount University.
[ edited by Bobbi on 2009-02-14 02:25 ]
NurseBobbi | February 13, 17:22 CET
Wow, small world, I'm in a Maryland suburb of D.C. (and work outside Tyson's). And Comcast sux.
By the way, any of the other local Whedonesquers going to Farpoint in Baltimore this weekend? I can't wait! Alan Tudyk is always amazing. :-) And isn't he going to be guesting in Dollhouse too? How appropriate.
[ edited by AnotherFireflyfan on 2009-02-14 02:23 ]
AnotherFireflyfan | February 13, 17:22 CET
Ah, that's sweet of you, Bobbi, thank you so much, but the Merlot has spoken, and it says, "Don't drive."
[ edited by Pointy on 2009-02-14 02:24 ]
Pointy | February 13, 17:23 CET
Sunfire | February 13, 17:24 CET
AnotherFireflyfan | February 13, 17:25 CET
Let Down | February 13, 17:26 CET
snowinhell | February 13, 17:26 CET
Emmie | February 13, 17:27 CET
I tried. No takers.
Sunfire | February 13, 17:28 CET
Seems like many of us in the DC area are here at the moment.
NurseBobbi | February 13, 17:28 CET
Sunfire | February 13, 17:29 CET
Which means it's possible they'll have it late tonight, which has been happening a lot lately with the shows they're allowed to post "next day".
ETA that I mean "late tonight" in the West, because they do have to at least wait for it to air here, heh.
[ edited by The One True b!X on 2009-02-14 02:31 ]
@theonetruebix | February 13, 17:29 CET
ETA Thanks for the tip, B!x, I may see Dollhouse before I see the dawn.
[ edited by Pointy on 2009-02-14 02:33 ]
Pointy | February 13, 17:29 CET
NurseBobbi | February 13, 17:30 CET
dulce_serenidad | February 13, 17:31 CET
snowinhell | February 13, 17:33 CET
SteveP | February 13, 17:33 CET
Forgive this analogy, if it offends, but: most times, I prefer a slow build and eventual release, rather than a quick pop out of the gate.
Well, those are actually mixed metaphors, but I hope my meaning is clear, if manic.
; >
QuoterGal | February 13, 17:34 CET
Oh and also, make sure you guys discuss at least a thing or two other than Eliza's tank top. For instance, talk about her hair in stead. Mmmmm, Eliza-hair... Shiny...
Xyron | February 13, 17:35 CET
zeitgeist | February 13, 17:35 CET
Numfar PTB | February 13, 17:37 CET
badwolf | February 13, 17:38 CET
zeitgeist | February 13, 17:39 CET
@theonetruebix | February 13, 17:40 CET
UnpluggedCrazy | February 13, 17:40 CET
zeitgeist | February 13, 17:41 CET
badwolf | February 13, 17:41 CET
Emmie | February 13, 17:44 CET
Krusher | February 13, 17:45 CET
zeitgeist | February 13, 17:45 CET
Rune | February 13, 17:46 CET
I'm taking bets. ;-)
UnpluggedCrazy | February 13, 17:47 CET
resa | February 13, 17:48 CET
NurseBobbi | February 13, 17:48 CET
Bobbi - right on!
zeitgeist | February 13, 17:48 CET
And hi Rune!
Emmie | February 13, 17:49 CET
zeitgeist | February 13, 17:50 CET
OK. Back to Dollhouse.
NurseBobbi | February 13, 17:52 CET
@theonetruebix | February 13, 17:52 CET
I have to leave for a birthday party. Right. Now. :(
I'll catch up on the thread in about 5 hours when I've returned home and seen the show (via DVR). Have a great time you guys!
And welcome to the party Rune.
alexreager | February 13, 17:52 CET
zeitgeist | February 13, 17:52 CET
@theonetruebix | February 13, 17:54 CET
mirrorshades | February 13, 17:54 CET
zeitgeist | February 13, 17:55 CET
wiesengrund | February 13, 17:56 CET
@theonetruebix | February 13, 17:57 CET
zeitgeist | February 13, 17:57 CET
wiesengrund | February 13, 17:58 CET
Ah, didn't let that stop me. Pried it open with a wine bottle opener.
Emmie | February 13, 17:58 CET
UnpluggedCrazy | February 13, 17:58 CET
Not that I want that to happen, I just think it'd be an amusing contrast.
Racoon Boy | February 13, 17:58 CET
Lioness | February 13, 17:59 CET
Let Down | February 13, 17:59 CET
zeitgeist | February 13, 17:59 CET
NurseBobbi | February 13, 17:59 CET
Considering it'd be illegal for it to be there, I assume not until it's on Hulu and can be embedded.
@theonetruebix | February 13, 18:00 CET
wiesengrund | February 13, 18:00 CET
NurseBobbi | February 13, 18:00 CET
Let Down | February 13, 18:01 CET
Emmie | February 13, 18:01 CET
@theonetruebix | February 13, 18:02 CET
[ edited by zeitgeist on 2009-02-14 03:02 ]
zeitgeist | February 13, 18:02 CET
Let Down | February 13, 18:03 CET
NurseBobbi | February 13, 18:03 CET
Emmie | February 13, 18:04 CET
I wanna be in America right now.
wiesengrund | February 13, 18:05 CET
zeitgeist | February 13, 18:06 CET
wiesengrund | February 13, 18:06 CET
No tv reception here. Sigh.
(Yes, I know i could have fixed that before tonight.)
leenah | February 13, 18:06 CET
Emmie | February 13, 18:08 CET
wiesengrund | February 13, 18:08 CET
Emmie | February 13, 18:10 CET
snowinhell | February 13, 18:10 CET
zeitgeist | February 13, 18:11 CET
snowinhell | February 13, 18:12 CET
Emmie | February 13, 18:13 CET
NurseBobbi | February 13, 18:13 CET
zeitgeist | February 13, 18:13 CET
NurseBobbi | February 13, 18:14 CET
Emmie | February 13, 18:14 CET
fortunateizzi | February 13, 18:14 CET
zeitgeist | February 13, 18:15 CET
NurseBobbi | February 13, 18:16 CET
Emmie | February 13, 18:16 CET
zeitgeist | February 13, 18:17 CET
(Wow, I'm bad at actually logging off and walking away, aren't I?)
snowinhell | February 13, 18:17 CET
Oh, Amy Acker!
NurseBobbi | February 13, 18:17 CET
zeitgeist | February 13, 18:17 CET
Emmie | February 13, 18:18 CET
[ edited by The One True b!X on 2009-02-14 03:22 ]
@theonetruebix | February 13, 18:21 CET
[ edited by wiesengrund on 2009-02-14 03:23 ]
wiesengrund | February 13, 18:22 CET
Pamelajaye | February 13, 18:22 CET
zeitgeist | February 13, 18:24 CET
Numfar PTB | February 13, 18:25 CET
@theonetruebix | February 13, 18:26 CET
NurseBobbi | February 13, 18:26 CET
zeitgeist | February 13, 18:26 CET
@theonetruebix | February 13, 18:27 CET
wiesengrund | February 13, 18:28 CET
zeitgeist | February 13, 18:28 CET
NurseBobbi | February 13, 18:29 CET
Rachelkachel | February 13, 18:29 CET
wiesengrund | February 13, 18:30 CET
zeitgeist | February 13, 18:34 CET
@theonetruebix | February 13, 18:35 CET
NurseBobbi | February 13, 18:35 CET
Emmie | February 13, 18:35 CET
wiesengrund | February 13, 18:36 CET
zeitgeist | February 13, 18:36 CET
mirrorshades | February 13, 18:37 CET
RavenU | February 13, 18:38 CET
Plus flaws are interesting.
Emmie | February 13, 18:38 CET
UnpluggedCrazy | February 13, 18:39 CET
I've missed it so!
whedon is GOD | February 13, 18:39 CET
wiesengrund | February 13, 18:40 CET
@theonetruebix | February 13, 18:40 CET
KingofCretins | February 13, 18:40 CET
Wow. The asthma's a real issue. Not a great idea for this particular personality.
[ edited by Bobbi on 2009-02-14 03:43 ]
NurseBobbi | February 13, 18:41 CET
Emmie | February 13, 18:43 CET
As tweeted, really enojying so far, a few minor issues, but the negative reviews was too exagerated.
Numfar PTB | February 13, 18:43 CET
I'm sure he didn't name it "Ghostbusters" because of some copyright-issues.
wiesengrund | February 13, 18:44 CET
KingofCretins | February 13, 18:44 CET
library hooligan | February 13, 18:44 CET
@theonetruebix | February 13, 18:45 CET
Numfar PTB | February 13, 18:46 CET
And it's not over yet, library hooligan.
UnpluggedCrazy | February 13, 18:46 CET
NurseBobbi | February 13, 18:46 CET
Numfar PTB | February 13, 18:47 CET
@theonetruebix | February 13, 18:48 CET
UnpluggedCrazy | February 13, 18:48 CET
I think Topher has to choose, but he has to balance -- if he just takes the best out of every personality they have, the Active's persona is probably unstable or fractured.
KingofCretins | February 13, 18:49 CET
[ edited by Emmie on 2009-02-14 04:22 ]
Emmie | February 13, 18:49 CET
wiesengrund | February 13, 18:50 CET
Pamelajaye | February 13, 18:50 CET
@theonetruebix | February 13, 18:50 CET
He said ominously... we will find out about unstable and fractured before the season's out, I'm sure :)
zeitgeist | February 13, 18:50 CET
NurseBobbi | February 13, 18:51 CET
Fredikins | February 13, 18:51 CET
library hooligan | February 13, 18:52 CET
UnpluggedCrazy | February 13, 18:53 CET
Emmie | February 13, 18:53 CET
argumentsdiscussions about what things mean in a new Joss Whedon television program!@theonetruebix | February 13, 18:54 CET
NurseBobbi | February 13, 18:54 CET
I'll relisten to all of this when it airs here, taking this thread into consideration, to see if I was taking it wrong, but my memory is that it was suggested that Actives are not imprinted with a single actual persona, but a persona Topher constructs out of many different people.
@theonetruebix | February 13, 18:55 CET
ETA - I did manage to muck up what I was trying to say there, b!X - more later. The explanation of the "how it works" made Topher sound like he had more control than he does, while the rest of the explanation sounds like its a little bit of a mystery what works and doesn't and why.
[ edited by zeitgeist on 2009-02-14 03:58 ]
zeitgeist | February 13, 18:56 CET
@theonetruebix | February 13, 18:57 CET
KingofCretins | February 13, 18:58 CET
Cold Opening: I think that sucked me in well enough. Of course, I was looking to be sucked in, so that might have something to do with it. I think it did a good job (or even great job) of setting up the premise, though it probably helps that I knew about the premise before.
It's already got me into the characters, as well. The Handler character especially piqued my interest right away, with his moral conflict and all. The expression on his face when Echo said he was 'good people' or whatever was wow.
The opening credits were nice, I especially liked the tinker-toy-esque bit at the end.
Act I: I was a bit surprised to see Amy Acker so early, since I was under the impression she wouldn't be in the first episode, but I guess that was the old pilot and I never clarified the news later.
Juxtaposed boxing scene was a bit obvious, but certainly effective, I guess. It was sweet when he kneed that dude in the face Muay Thai-styles.
"No one is to be brought to justice." Sweet line.
Act II: I have admit, I'm impressed how Eliza is pulling off the hostage-negotiator personality. It really is like watching a different storyline within the show.
This far in, I'm pretty sure I'm already sold.
Act III: The FBI storyline doesn't really interest me all that much at this point.
Echo storyline, however. Wow.
Act IV: (man I dig these short commercials) I like the Handler character, it is decided (I don't have all the character names memorized yet).
"We do not have a client" "We have a mission!" adfiuashfjhasdadawesome
Act V: This show is so cool.
So. So. Cool.
Wow that new Doll is kind of terrifying. Well, whoever she was being was terrifying.
I don't know if I'm missing something with that closing scene, but I was a little confused. I think I know what was happening, but I don't know if I was supposed to know who any of those people were.
Overall, I really enjoyed that. Would watch again.
Grr! Arrgh!
Nolan | February 13, 18:58 CET
NurseBobbi | February 13, 18:59 CET
KingofCretins | February 13, 18:59 CET
NurseBobbi | February 13, 18:59 CET
RavenU | February 13, 18:59 CET
mirrorshades | February 13, 19:00 CET
*sigh*
I'm sold.
Litwall | February 13, 19:00 CET
Emmie | February 13, 19:00 CET
@theonetruebix | February 13, 19:00 CET
I am so happy.
UnpluggedCrazy | February 13, 19:01 CET
pat32082 | February 13, 19:01 CET
Alpha looks exciting. I was not nearly as disappointed as all the buzz was making me believe I would be!!
"You can't fight a ghost." SO GOOD! SHE WAS DEAD!!
Exclamation points are not doing justice!!!!
Buffy the Slayer Layer | February 13, 19:01 CET
Nebula1400 | February 13, 19:01 CET
YAY!
So happy, stimulus package signed and Dollhouse is on!
All is well with the world.
hbojo | February 13, 19:01 CET
ETA: Oh wait, I think I just got it. Was that supposed to be the uhh agenty guy we saw earlier? The one who we also saw boxing? Haha, sorry, I haven't read a lot online so I don't know everyone's name. So he killed those guys, whoever they were?
[ edited by fortunateizzi on 2009-02-14 04:05 ]
fortunateizzi | February 13, 19:02 CET
His "art" is just in the crafting together of one personality from several, and the making people near-sighted because they *have* to be for the personality to fit.
KingofCretins | February 13, 19:02 CET
[ edited by Olya on 2010-04-24 00:05 ]
Olya | February 13, 19:02 CET
The Dark Shape | February 13, 19:03 CET
Nebula1400 | February 13, 19:03 CET
And, yes I'm sold too.
Numfar PTB | February 13, 19:04 CET
I'm firmly in the satisfied and entertained camp. A good intro and I can see how it's only going to get better from here.
Emmie | February 13, 19:04 CET
zeitgeist | February 13, 19:04 CET
I still don't like the singing in the theme though. ;)
Daburcor | February 13, 19:05 CET
@theonetruebix | February 13, 19:05 CET
Chills a couple places for totally different reasons:
1) Eliza with her arms up dancing next to a blonde girl. Buffy shout-out!
2) The edit of Eliza carrying the little girl out of the house. The moment is very poignant, but we barely get to feel it before it cuts back to a "clean slate" Echo in the Dollhouse. Nice editing touch that drove the stakes* home.
*I swear I didn't mean to make a whedonverse pun.
caeli | February 13, 19:05 CET
hbojo | February 13, 19:06 CET
Yay! For Joss back on my TV every week.
BuffyGroupie | February 13, 19:06 CET
Too long since he's been on TV!
Such a good show. I'm in love.
Again.
JustNick | February 13, 19:07 CET
Is it next Friday yet?
NYPinTA | February 13, 19:08 CET
The man's a freakin' genius. That's all.
whedon is GOD | February 13, 19:08 CET
wiesengrund | February 13, 19:08 CET
Shelly | February 13, 19:08 CET
circusgeek | February 13, 19:09 CET
@theonetruebix | February 13, 19:09 CET
chance | February 13, 19:09 CET
I'll admit,I never could get into Firefly.I watched the show as aired.Watched it again on DVD in the correct order and saw Serenity.But it just wasn't my type of show(the western angle).Dollhouse seems much more my speed.
[ edited by Buffyfantic on 2009-02-14 04:12 ]
Buffyfantic | February 13, 19:09 CET
I really like the idea of combining other identities to form the ones the Actives are implanted with, mostly because it has the potential to cause a lot of trouble, as we saw in this episode. Maybe that's a part of the factor that allows Echo to retain her memories.
I also really loathe Topher. He seems like an arrogant, pretentious asshole. Which means that Mr. Kranz is doing an amazing job, really. ;)
Overall, I enjoyed the episode, even though I wasn't immediately drawn to it like Buffy or Firefly. But I think that will come with time. And it was very heart-warming to see the Mutant Enemy logo a the end. :)
deepgirl187 | February 13, 19:10 CET
pat32082 | February 13, 19:11 CET
Nebula1400 | February 13, 19:11 CET
Her review? "The critics were wrong."
AuntArlene | February 13, 19:11 CET
I can live without the humor he does in other series, 'cause not every show needs it (though I miss it), but this just didn't come across strong enough on it's own emotions, and the droning, do-nothing scoring in the back ground sure didn't help.
An older review stating it was't like Dushku becoming someone else, but rather Dusku dressed as somebody else, is fairly accurate. It was like Dushku in glasses.
By the end I was bored, even felt like just turning the TV off and doing something else. Whedon has stated the show "found" it's stride in later episodes; I hope so, because I won't give this show a full 13 episodes to impress me.
Dushku: average performance, could have been a LOT better.
Olivia Williams: okay, but her character just feels empty, like it's missing something, and she's too cliched for my Whedon tastes.
Fran Kranz: completely boring. Just a walking shell who puts some lines and looks in occassionally, but I wouldn't even blink if he vanished a few episodes later.
Harry Lennix: now this character I like; just looking at hgim you get the feeling there is more to him and that he can actually act.
Rob Simonsen & Mychael Danna's score: background servicing. A composer change is strongely needed for the series.
If a 10 Star system was used, I'd have to rate the episode as a *****. If it wasn't for my love of Whedon, and the aforementioned later foot-finding of the series, I wouldn't keep tuning in.
Oh, and every show he's done had a memorable music theme, this one ... totally forgettable. A new theme is needed as well.
tharpdevenport | February 13, 19:11 CET
NYPinTA | February 13, 19:11 CET
So exciting to have Joss back on TV!
Passion | February 13, 19:11 CET
la maestra julie | February 13, 19:11 CET
It seemed pretty clear to me that Toper considers himself an artist - a bit from here, a bit from there and the perfect person for the job is created.
My worry is that we will get used to Echo's memories being wiped so the poignancy will be lost. Twice already we have seen things she would probably prefer to remember. Will we eventually just shrug and say "Oh well.She'll lose that one"
The flashes of her remembering has started soon than I expected.
Lioness | February 13, 19:12 CET
wiesengrund | February 13, 19:16 CET
So that's how I understand the dolls. Topher can tinker here and there, but if he removes what he views as a potential flaw he's also damaging the strength that's created to overcompensate for that flaw.
Emmie | February 13, 19:16 CET
Glad MOST of you seemed to have enjoyed it- if you didn't then remember that Joss himself concedes that the series takes a few episodes to find its groove.
SO happy that this day has finally come, though!
missb | February 13, 19:16 CET
Topher's point about flaws is that being talented is not enough, the personality needs motivation. We see this in pro sports, the ones who work the hardest usually have a chip on their shoulders.
I see that I wasn't the only one to notice Eliza's white dress :-) , but I'm surprised the ladies haven't commented in this thread on Tahmoh's abs. Although the bathroom scene is well away from the main story, I thought it brought the funny. ("Wash your hand... and your shoes.")
[ edited by OneTeV on 2009-02-14 04:19 ]
OneTeV | February 13, 19:17 CET
@theonetruebix | February 13, 19:18 CET
Yeah..more Joss and I'm just thrilled. Eliza is AMAZING on the show....I'm always happy to see a fellow Bostonian doing well. :-)
WitchyGrrl | February 13, 19:18 CET
tharpdevenport | February 13, 19:20 CET
Among other things... GRR ARGH YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY!!!
Edit: Loving the shorter commercial breaks!
[ edited by Chris the Bloody on 2009-02-14 04:22 ]
Chris the Bloody | February 13, 19:20 CET
You know you're a fan when you want to watch a show again almost as soon as it airs.
Scraggles | February 13, 19:22 CET
Of course, FOX in our area had to have a special news report monopolized the screen for 5 minutes, making the shows image about the size of an iPod... No disrespect to the cop killed, or his family, but running that interference for so long did nothing for the family (who would NOT continue watching Dollhouse under those circumstances, and not want an image of the crime scene superimposed on any show), and nothing for the people watching the show.
Nebula1400 | February 13, 19:23 CET
wiesengrund | February 13, 19:23 CET
Nebula1400 | February 13, 19:23 CET
In simple terms the beginning didn't really grab me, but the end was magnificent. It should hook people. Especially that final scene. With Caroline (is that her real name?) commenting on the Grad Vid.
Like others the FBI arc right now doesn't seem super appealing. I was not a fan of the fight scene mixed in with the yell fest. However, whoever that actor was playing Ballard's Boss was awesome.
I just thought at the beginning that Dushku and Kranz were over-acting their characters. I'm really not a fan of that "Did I fall asleep line." I have a feeling though that Topher is probably going to become my favourite character. And I'm interested to see what's going on with him and Dr. Saunders.
The show really picked up when Miss Penn/Echo/Dushku (lol) recognized the abuser. The lines in the van were awesome. I thought Dushku was awesome! And of course the "You can't fight a Ghost." line was incredible.
For any Whedon fans you can tell how much potential this show has, and I hope they can do a lot of arcing, we'll see though. For non-Whedon fans I think it did an excellent job setting up the show and hooking you in.
I'm very excited.
EX | February 13, 19:24 CET
zeitgeist | February 13, 19:24 CET
Yep.
Nebula1400 | February 13, 19:26 CET
wiesengrund | February 13, 19:27 CET
Emmie | February 13, 19:27 CET
In regards to the poignancy of the memories being lost after the wipe, my guess is that Echo will eventually retain memories after the wipe.
I know that some people may not consider me the most objective being a JW fan but I can't help but think were some of these critics watching the same show? lol
WheelsOfJoy | February 13, 19:27 CET
And I love, love, LOVE the opening credits and theme.
HowlingLupe | February 13, 19:28 CET
Cheesy. A lot of FOX-generated crappy banter. Insulted everyone's intelligence - ours, Summer's, and Eliza's.
Nebula1400 | February 13, 19:28 CET
SteveP | February 13, 19:29 CET
And the dancing was perfectly good, as was the dress :) Did network make Eliza dance on "Buffy" and "Angel", too?
[ edited by KingofCretins on 2009-02-14 04:36 ]
KingofCretins | February 13, 19:32 CET
(Then again, I was also worried about Boreanaz being able to carry his own show..)
QuanticoMVP | February 13, 19:34 CET
Emmie | February 13, 19:34 CET
circusgeek | February 13, 19:35 CET
Tymen | February 13, 19:36 CET
wiesengrund | February 13, 19:37 CET
Emmie | February 13, 19:37 CET
Giles'chainsawchick | February 13, 19:39 CET
ETA that this episode (this show?) had a very The Inside feel to me. Which is good. I loved The Inside!
[ edited by Jobo on 2009-02-14 04:44 ]
sumogrip | February 13, 19:41 CET
vampmogs | February 13, 19:42 CET
The beginning scene was terrible and was a waste of time, the final scenes were decent and the only character I ended up liking was the handler.
Could the show become better? Obviously. I held off on reading reviews until after the airing. And I sadly have to say I agree with alot of the negative comments.
I'll keep watching but if it wasn't from Joss I would've stopped watching.
Lockescythe | February 13, 19:42 CET
RCM | February 13, 19:42 CET
zeitgeist | February 13, 19:44 CET
Emmie | February 13, 19:47 CET
tharpdevenport | February 13, 19:48 CET
xander fan | February 13, 19:49 CET
tharpdevenport - I know a lot of folks who didn't expect to like it from the premise, Whedon fans and non-Whedon fans who ended up being very excited by it. Its interesting how people who disagree with us are the ones who aren't seeing correctly, (instead of, say having a valid and differing opinion) isn't it? :) To take another example, I was SO looking forward to Studio 60 and loved everything Sorkin had done, but wow was Studio 60 a dog.
[ edited by zeitgeist on 2009-02-14 04:51 ]
zeitgeist | February 13, 19:49 CET
Or people have a legitimate difference of opinion based upon the episode itself.
@theonetruebix | February 13, 19:50 CET
It's solid. And I really like this moody opening theme, my only complain about the opening sequence, is the lack of spotlight for each of the actors, they're just listed during the credits, but without a scene of their own, like in previous shows.
Numfar PTB | February 13, 19:52 CET
tharpdevenport | February 13, 19:52 CET
I'm very pleased.
Scaniano | February 13, 19:53 CET
Eliza and Summer hosting could have been better... obviously it was scripted Fox stuff. But just seeing the two togther made me happy.
I loved the Edward James Olmos shout out, though to me he's freaking horrifying in BSG when he's angry, not at all fatherly! I also felt like the Terminator episode was heavily influenced by Baltar and Six, which sort of made up for the very little amount of Summer in it.
edit: changed the spelling of The Old Man's name so I don't look like a fool.
[ edited by SteppeMerc on 2009-02-14 04:57 ]
SteppeMerc | February 13, 19:53 CET
zeitgeist | February 13, 19:53 CET
clearly some characters had second thoughts/ are kinda creeped out by wiping people's personalities (The handler, FBI agent, and the doctor). I'm pretty sure debating the ethics over the dollhouse will be done in every episode but---still i wish we had a little more information on how it actually goes down. Oh wait, thats why im gonna keep watching. haha.
Overall i thought it was a good pilot. I'm a little caught up on the technology aspect. Don't know why i can easily accept a futuristic space western but the thought of downloading people's personalities is still too much for me. Perhaps because the atmosphere is not spaced as much as firefly was. Either way, i find myself really stuck on how they receive personalities or code them or transfer them or whatever. If our experiences and memories can be digitized---how are we so different from machines? Terminator crossover? what?
the show has a lot going on right now in terms of subplots--- i hope they all wind in together nicely.
FunkyBeccaBecca | February 13, 19:56 CET
Well, that's certainly a possibility. But I also am appreciating this based on the what I view as categorically good. The theme of memory that continued throughout the language of the episode and the balance between the character relationships. The combination of eerie and enlightening, peace and disturbance. Not to say that your review was directed at me, but how is giving something a 7.5/10 being blind to its faults? If we were really blinded by love we'd be singing "oh em gees". I've been hearing good things from other people who've never watched Whedon shows before, so no I don't think it's blind Whedon love here.
Hehe, Topher is making me laugh during the rewatch. I certainly have some trouble with certain scenes like the boxing scene (really? how was that necessary?) and the motorcycle scene with Eliza sexily tossing her helmet away, but overall I found it very enjoyable.
Did anyone else wish that the credits featured more people besides Dushku?
Emmie | February 13, 19:58 CET
I liked that the credit only featured Dushku Emmie :) It was a change from Joss' usual credits.
[ edited by vampmogs on 2009-02-14 05:01 ]
vampmogs | February 13, 19:58 CET
tharpdevenport | February 13, 20:01 CET
Though the comparision to Firefly is interesting, as Firefly is far more realistic (in its way) with the tech, or at least tried to be. For example, the no sound in space, no FTL, etc. Joss seems to be returning to the 'magic' explination, though to be fair it is only one episode in. I'm sure Topher will brag in numerous episodes about it, letting us evantually piece together some idea. Then again, it could just all be magic.
edit: To the above, that's your opinion, but not everyone thought so, both Whedon fans and non. Also, the characters and actors are far superior to that of X-Files.
[ edited by SteppeMerc on 2009-02-14 05:02 ]
SteppeMerc | February 13, 20:01 CET
Amaranth | February 13, 20:02 CET
@The One True b!X
heh at the lone dissenting comment.
dulce_serenidad | February 13, 20:03 CET
SuperLaz | February 13, 20:04 CET
Arcadia | February 13, 20:07 CET
SteppeMerc | February 13, 20:07 CET
I can also see this appealing to other people. Meaning that non-Whedon fans will be able to relate to this better than to some of his other shows, because outwardly, this show is way more "normal" that his others. No vampires, for one thing, and no space cowboys. ;)
BuffyGroupie | February 13, 20:08 CET
RCM | February 13, 20:08 CET
zeitgeist | February 13, 20:09 CET
BuffyGroupie | February 13, 20:10 CET
[ edited by fortunateizzi on 2009-02-14 05:15 ]
fortunateizzi | February 13, 20:11 CET
...I guess it's good we're not Topher.
Emmie | February 13, 20:11 CET
palehorse | February 13, 20:13 CET
zeitgeist | February 13, 20:13 CET
Emmie | February 13, 20:15 CET
It did have a since of fox in the show but the show is on fox so no biggy there. To me it was a little like Alias 2 and I can see how Whedon fans could be a little upset. I think it had just enough of the Joss genius to satisfy most of us knowing that he always improves as the characters and arcs grow. I did like the best of Alias though but this show has the potential to be even better.
I think Eliza has the chops if we get best that she's a quieter actor in non faith like roles.
I like Echo. I love her Handler. Topher and Dr Amy interest me. I can't wait until next Friday!!
beckyboo | February 13, 20:16 CET
Someone mentioned The Inside and I can sorta see that now, but the only real connection I feel there was in the personality given to Echo/Caroline (okay I'll just call her Echo in the future for simplicity, especially since Caroline might be pretty much gone for good). The child abuse thing reminded me of the lead character from The Inside. The Inside seemed to happen almost entirely at night though, whereas this show happened mostly in the day time this episode, and the palette of the show is a lot warmer than The Inside's, so it didn't feel like The Inside looks-wise.
A few very familiar-looking faces that I couldn't place, yay for IMDB.
My dad phoned after the ep aired and said "Joxer from Xena!" about Tahmoh Penikett, waiting for a response, and I was like "Umm, I watched like three episodes of Xena, I know the character you're talking about, I don't know if that's him"...then thought to myself that he would have had to seriously bulk up and age/fill out in the face if it was him. According to the IMDB, it's not ? But he is a major player on Battlestar Galactica. Yikes. If everyone could refrain from spoiling that series in the tons of Dollhouse discussion yet to come, that would be hugely appreciated by myself and the doubtless many others who're planning on renting and marathoning or blind-buying that beast and devouring it when the pretty complete set inevitably comes out later this year or in early 2010.
Olivia Williams (Adelle DeWitt) looked so familiar, and I do remember her from Below now that I see that credit, but even more excitingly recognizable, she's Moira MacTaggart from the X-Men 3 film ! I love that character, hopefully she'll feature in a better sequel in the future.
Harry Lennix looked the most familiar, I was wracking my brain, but nope, it wasn't coming. Of course ! It's the commander dude from the Matrix sequels...I barely remember him from his role early on in the least-good-of-the-series Season 6 of 24.
Reed Diamond (the pushy blonde agent/manservant of Adelle's who was getting in Langdon's face over the breach of protocol and flew Echo in the helicopter to rescue the little girl) was Terry on The Shield, a small but very significant role in that series.
I love that the organization (does it have a name, besides what the FBI is calling it?) kept the $8 million.
Promising pilot, not nearly the "cool but lacklustre" I was expecting after so many lukewarm/let down reviews (but I did very much trust in the opinions of those who've seen up to episode 4 or 5. The folks who watched ahead for True Blood weren't wrong after its iffy pilot and there've been a couple other shows over the years where reviewers getting screeners for several episodes in advance has assured and resulted in happy viewing). Very solid opening. I imagine some viewers were confused and may be having neck pains due to the crazy twisting plot-&-exposition whiplash though.
Kris | February 13, 20:16 CET
Actually, I haven't seen it. [/bitterAustralian]
Racoon Boy | February 13, 20:17 CET
patxshand | February 13, 20:19 CET
OneTeV | February 13, 20:24 CET
I think it was slow in the beginning and then it picked up. By the end I was wondering more about the characters and trying to figure things out, which means I liked it and I'll continue to watch.
And I cannot describe the feelings of Yay that I felt when I saw the Grrr! Argh! So happy to see that again.
chikymunkey | February 13, 20:25 CET
I'll need to watch it again before I really know how I feel - hurry up Hulu! Also, my TV spazzed out for about a minute and I missed some stuff that seemed like it might have been important.
Grr Argh!
Rachelkachel | February 13, 20:27 CET
Maybe Echo was an agent/handler herself at one time and the punishment for messing up hugely, maybe not in ever agent's case but just sometimes, is becoming a doll.
Maybe she was into drugs or accidentally killed someone. She looked either recovering from something in that first scene, or just really tired, stressed, and like she'd maybe been crying earlier. Kudos to the make-up folks though there.
Ah, the rampant speculation. How I did miss it (well, okay, not that much, I hang out on Lost boards occasionally. But for a Joss show/movie).
Kris | February 13, 20:34 CET
I am so happy this show is on. It did start out slow for me. But by the end it had all locked into place for me. I thought of it as the actor's finding their footing, a toe hold in the side of a very crazy cliff. I can't wait for the infamous episode six.
madmolly | February 13, 20:36 CET
Did anyone else kinda squee at the ME, Grr-Arg at the end? I did. Also how cool is it to have a Battlestar Galactica actor in this?
cheryl | February 13, 20:36 CET
deadbessie | February 13, 20:39 CET
Out of Objects | February 13, 20:40 CET
zeitgeist | February 13, 20:42 CET
-I really hope Echo starts getting her memories back soon, 'cause it's a little painful to watch a grown woman acting like a two year old. That's enough of that, thank you.
-I like Boyd, he's pretty cool.
-Topher's gonna be the reverse Knox, I think. We're not gonna know what we think of him for while (though, he'll be moderately clever), and then he's gonna get a conscience. And then he's gonna die. Cause it's Joss.
-Sierra's totally new River! Awesome!
-Whoa, Olivia Williams is in this show. That's wonderful. Congrats on that one, big purple.
-I think it's my least favorite theme song of the four shows Joss has done. And I do think it's my least favorite pilot of the four, as well. I'd give it about a 7.5. Ultimately, I think the show will be a big, beautiful work of art but this one didn't give me a whole lot of anything. Nothing that pushed me over the edge.
That's all, I guess
P.S. Oh wait! I have to issue some concerns on Joss. Uh... My nickname in some circles (quite a few, actually) is Topher. And uh... My last name is Boyd. So, honored but... creepy...
leafblown | February 13, 20:43 CET
I know the next episode will be better, and the one after that even better. Joss' shows usually grab me for the very start so this is a disappointment.
biffsbabe | February 13, 20:45 CET
In essence, if Ms. Penn woke up from her 'treatment' without Topher's alteration, she would immediately realize that she could see without glasses. Seeing is just a big part of a human's life.
I really liked it. It's not Buffy, or Angel or Firefly, and is not as funny or cute or dialogue-packed as those shows, but I think that it is very good.
I'm excited to learn about a lot of things, but something that hasn't been brought up yet: what exactly do the Actives think that they are being treated for?
Oh and. YAY GRR ARGH!
VeryVeryCrowded | February 13, 20:46 CET
Emmie | February 13, 20:50 CET
I think because almost all the characters are suit-wearing professionals and, even more than that, because there is no close-knit family unit (Firefly) or chummy band of friends/colleagues (Buffy & Angel) right off the bat, this does feel very un-Joss-like in some respects. We're just being made to wait for that stage this time, assuming that's a set-up that'll come about (maybe we'll only see a couple characters at most ally/share info/bond meaingfully, but for the most part everyone will be out for their own interests, we'll see. That would be different for a Joss show).
Maybe this comment has been made (I swear I read all 283 of everyone's, but maybe I missed it), but did anyone else catch that obvious/silly, but still satisfying dig at reality-TV ? I liked (I still watch Survivor, but that's my only one. Thursdays are fun/funny night, except for when The Office decides to be poignant or heart-wrenching, though I like that too).
Maybe the actives aren't told/programmed with any faked knowledge of what they're being treated for (when the mission's ended or aborted), they just know/believe that they must attend to the treatment when their handler says it's time.
I'm gonna love to see Adelle and/or Topher and/or any of the other agents, or all of them collectively, shit a brick the first time Echo disobeys in a really assertive fashion or freaks out and throws them over the railing or something. Those kinds of scenes are always fun and sometimes hair-raising in movies or TV shows where the slave/subject rises up.
[ edited by Kris on 2009-02-14 06:00 ]
Kris | February 13, 20:54 CET
taranova | February 13, 20:55 CET
I like getting the innocent-Echo stuff, since really, it's *that* character's journey that is central to the show.
I know Harry Lennix has warned against assuming Boyd is the "moral compass" of the show, but so far, definitely is. I love his insistence that they have "a mission". When Dewitt countered that's an engagement, I think she totally missed or ignored the subtext of the word he chose. He, at least, wasn't talking about the job anymore.
There's an interesting parallel between the Dollhouse and Serenity (the business and the ship, respectively) as businesses. The Dollhouse is all about the engagement. Serenity is all about "the job". Yet both are occasionally dragged into someone else's dilemma in the process. Is Dewitt the Malcolm Reynolds of "Dollhouse", grudgingly dragged along like a twig in the river of moral imperative? I mean, I don't think anybody else could have authorized activating Sierra to "clean the operation", if you like.
That would probably make Boyd some mix of Zoe, Inara, and Book in terms of his role in challenging her instincts.
I get why Topher is there. I get why Boyd is there. I think I get why Dewitt is there. The Actives are desperate volunteers or victims (I'm guessing). Right now, I wonder... why is Saunders there? She seems really squicked by every part of her job so far.
KingofCretins | February 13, 20:56 CET
I thought the ep itself hung together surprisingly well given the obvious network fingerprints. It's not perfect, but pilots rarely are, especially in the Jossverse. As someone on TWoP said, "you know it's good because you come out of it with more questions than you had going in".
holeintheworld | February 13, 20:57 CET
[ edited by NYPinTA on 2009-02-14 05:58 ]
NYPinTA | February 13, 20:57 CET
I think there was most reaction from both of us about Amy Acker. It just seemed ....uncomfortable...and I liked that. There might be a lot of attractive people floating around, but there's also a lot of surreality and creepiness. Amy Acker did a great job conveying that in few words. Creeeepy.
I liked the Edward James Olmos reference, that was great stuff. Tahmoh seemed very unlike Helo, which was great, but I'm not used to seeing him in colors other than grey, dirt grown or moss green!
I really liked that the hostage negotiator was flawed, and I liked the reinforcement that Topher had to be an artist — that the personalities he created were actually personalities, and not simply missions imprinted on someone, as if they were robots. An example would be Cameron or the other terminators on "Terminator." Echo isn't a robot, she has full personalities and those can be difficult and subject to fault. I liked that she had asthma, though that's something that perhaps should have been removed because it could be seen as an obstacle to facilitating the engagement.
And also...all respect to Henry Lennix, but did anyone else think Chiwetel Ejoifor would've been fantastic as Boyd? I really liked Henry Lennix, I just thought it would also be great if we saw Chiwetel working with Joss again.
Also, the TV spots with Summer and Eliza were really fantastic — I think it shows that FOX really knows what they have with these two women, and know how to play it up.
[ edited by The Ninja Report on 2009-02-14 06:01 ]
the ninja report | February 13, 20:58 CET
That being said, thank god the gave her a prescription inhaler. That could make or break a great storyline. ;)
[ edited by Charmuse on 2009-02-14 06:04 ]
Charmuse | February 13, 20:58 CET
Emmie | February 13, 20:58 CET
Brett | February 13, 20:59 CET
I think it seeded enough hints that there's a lot more going on under the surface that it could maybe be looked at more as a generic bud that could open up into a more complexly built flower.
Plus it's a modern-set sci-fi show about memory-wiped-and-replaced people living in bizarre communal living quarters, so at the very least the set-up isn't generic, not in the least. Unless I haven't been paying attention to genre TV.
Kris | February 13, 21:08 CET
zeitgeist | February 13, 21:08 CET
Emmie | February 13, 21:09 CET
1. The complete red herring of "the blurry vision" whose only real purpose was to make us miss the significance of the asthma and the inhaler. Its apparent slight "side affect" then was the trigger for all the ensuing badness. Plus the off the cuff "We also gave her asthma" or something to that affect, made me laugh. Nice delivery.
2. How the point of contact bad guy wasn't even the main bad guy. It all seemed pretty stereotypical and then he was offed and of course the whole time we've been conditioned to think (by all those previously watched shows) that the "real bad guy is the "inside man" - but he wasn't. In fact he turned out to be relatively decent by evil kidnapper standards, despite the way scary mask. And then just as you feel a displaced sense of warmth for the guy because he's going to be so kind as to let her walk out the door with the girl and keep the 8 million...he gets shot.
3. With the exception of the massively overloaded and slightly confusing exposition, there was some nice back and forth dialog. Good rhythm between the characters. Either them actors or them editors got one really great sense of timing. Or both.
4. Those brief moments of philosophical inquiry.
5. The intriguing, although way confusing, end with the guy and the bodies and the video.
STUFF I DIDN'T LIKE:
1. The opening "job" for Echo. I know it was a job and she was supposed to be the perfect date and it was all some guy's cliched fantasy but it was cheesy and boring. TOO cliched. In fact it felt completely unconnected to the rest of the show.
2. The Echo persona. I'm gonna assume that as Eliza got more comfortable it becomes more believable, but every time she went "Echo" I saw acting. That said, I've been trying to figure out just how would a "blank non-person" act? I'm glad it's not my job. Go Eliza.
3. The aforementioned exposition. Did it all really need to be there? Couldn't it have been simpler? Less detailed?
4. I don't really care about Echo as of yet. How do you care about someone who isn't a someone? She has no point of view if she's just erased all the time. The workers (doctor, handler, programmer) are far more interesting characters out of the gate.
5. Somehow I wish I had been a bit surprised when
Sierra rammed through the door guns a blazing. But it just seemed expected.
6. The theme song. There was a theme song?
THINGS I'M REALLY LOOKING FORWARD TO FINDING OUT MORE ABOUT:
1. This place is illegal. So what is a somewhat ethical seeming ex-cop doing there?
2. How many times can you erase an active anyway? My flash drive will only take so much of it.
3. These people have no difficulty just murdering anyone to cover their tracks. How did this all come to be? How do they all really justify it to themselves.
4. You just know some employee somewhere in the dollhouse is going to be taking advantage of that whole lovely ease of erasing and there's going to be abuse of the system.
5. How blank are those personalities anyway?
6. That place is going to start seeming awful claustrophobic. How does a person remind them self of who they are when their entire environment is a control? Outward expression of self in the form of clothing and personal space is elemental. Will this be reflected as Echo experiences bleed through?
I'm sure I can come up with more, but those are my thoughts for now.
BreathesStory | February 13, 21:16 CET
One thing I find just really interesting is just how different this feels compared to the other three shows. I mean, you see that wonderful name at the bottom but the feel was really unique. I am definitely a fan! WOOOHOOO!!!
Hostile 17 | February 13, 21:19 CET
Theme song is great. I disagree with the haters.
daevid | February 13, 21:20 CET
I actually found Eliza Dushku to be a little grating. For me, she seems to work better in small doses, so I'm not sure what a weekly Eliza series will feel like.
I'll continue to watch, of course. I'm excited to see the original pilot next week.
Riker | February 13, 21:22 CET
zeitgeist | February 13, 21:25 CET
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1135300/board
SteveJ2008 | February 13, 21:25 CET
I loved the fact that actives can't be programmed with strengths alone. Strengths that exist as struggles against weaknesses are much more interesting. It's like customizable kryptonite for any situation. The writers must love it. It's also Joss with a 17-foot capital J: Think of Buffy's power and how it comes from darkness, or Angel's soul and how it exists only in the absence of happiness.
Because the actives' programming comes from scans of real people, it always has a built-in chance of failure. In other shows, Joss amplifies one person's highs and lows when that person has superpowers. On this show it appears that he'll splice different highs and lows into the same person. Since the source is a real person, it's never going to be sterile or predictable like programming a robot. Topher isn't a composer working with individual musical notes. Instead, he makes a mix CD of different people's souls, loads it into an active, and presses "shuffle". Cacophony ensues.
I didn't like the motorcycle or dancing scenes because there wasn't proper setup. They makes sense in the context of the "perfect date" later, but I didn't feel it along with the characters during the moment. I was thinking, "who are these people, and why should I care?" I was very concerned during the first 10 minutes, but then it got better quickly.
The dialog is definitely more "normal" than in his other stories. I miss the silly banter of Buffy, the retro-Chinese language of Firefly, or the future speak of Fray. Perhaps it's good that this show doesn't have those linguistic quirks if we want a to attract bigger audience?
It took 18 minutes to get to the first laugh. Hopefully that won't be the norm.
I disliked the boxing scene's literalness at first, but then really enjoyed the subversion at the end.
I had to watch the end twice to get it. "Alpha" appears to be the first active gone rogue. It looks like he's in Echo's house, that he's killed her parents, and that he's feeding information to Ballard?
Intelligent Calcium | February 13, 21:27 CET
Well, it was also there to set up Boyd running into the imprint room hoping she wasn't wiped yet, only to be disappointed because Echo has her "blank slate" look on her face... which then reverses again to turn out to just be her nearsighted look.
Also, these Summer/Eliza bits make me want to vomit in my mouth.
@theonetruebix | February 13, 21:28 CET
zeitgeist | February 13, 21:32 CET
This isn't Joss. This is pure FUX crap.
petranef | February 13, 21:32 CET
FaithFan | February 13, 21:34 CET
Question about the ending -- How does an Active actually go "rogue"? It's not like they are omnicapable or dangerous in a way more spectacular than anyone else, unless one got away while it was programmed to be Jack Bauer or Hannibal Lector.
KingofCretins | February 13, 21:34 CET
zeitgeist | February 13, 21:38 CET
BreathesStory | February 13, 21:40 CET
In the first scene, all I could think was "Faith! Keep her away from The Glove of Minigon!" Then there was the motorcycle thing, which I guess was for other potential viewers; not me. Then there was the dancing scene, which was for the leg men in the audience... Then I became a leg man...
I didn't buy Echo's negotiator character at first. I was thinking "Come on, that's just Faith in glasses and a pencil skirt. You know better than that, Joss!" But it ended up working for me, as I did become invested in the success of that character. By contrast, when Amy Acker showed up, I wasn't thinking "Fred" even though she was wearing a lab coat.
I worry that Joss's best stuff is inaccessible to general audiences (e.g. the double meaning in lines like "Who does she think she is?") So, most of my concerns about the episode are based on my paranoia about it attracting and keeping a big enough audience. The critics that complained that it was confusing or hard to follow are huge idiots. It was not hard to follow, even by regular TV drama standards. The last scene was mysterious, but it was obviously supposed to be. But it's clear what's going on once you realize Echo is the fifth doll, and Sierra is the 19th. I don't think most people will recognize that alphabet though, without the more well known letters like Bravo or Charlie or Tango or whatever).
phong | February 13, 21:40 CET
LOVED Amy,The EJO namedrp, and of course "grr argh."
Really unsure about Eliza however. She was fine in some scenes, very meh in others. Also the theme/credits are pretty dissapointing. =/
Rhodey | February 13, 21:41 CET
Emmie | February 13, 21:41 CET
phong | February 13, 21:42 CET
phong | February 13, 21:49 CET
streetartist | February 13, 21:54 CET
But I agree that the biggest threat is the very knowledge that the Dollhouse exists.
vampmogs | February 13, 21:56 CET
Things I loved:
Harry Lenix- come on, there's no arguing that guy.
the wtf ending that adds a level of scope to the series.
Victor's chin- it's just a really great chin and i am drawn to it every time he's on screen.
Echo being Echo- I can see the complaints but I loved it, then again I loved Thandie Newton's grown woman baby in Beloved, so what do I know.
The Eddie Olmos shout out.
Sierra.
Dr. Claire.
I was intrigued by Olivia Williams but am not sold on her yet.
I wasn't one hundred percent on board with the choice of opening engagement, but that wasn't for us. That was for the people across america turning in unsure who need something shiny to keep their attention. It isn't perfect but it's the nature of the network beast and thats the game that Jos wants to play.
But of course I'm wrong and it was just mediocre, so I should really watch it again so I can see this mediocre I seem to me missing out on.
[ edited by theMidnighter on 2009-02-14 07:03 ]
theMidnighter | February 13, 22:01 CET
Why did they choose that part of the song for the title though?
They chopped out all the words and played the la la la part of the song.
The background soundtrack is really lacking as previously stated as well. I hope they work on that. A bad soundtrack can ruin a tv show or a movie. I expected more from the new age master of musicals. Star Wars wouldn't have been a great film without John Williams.
Oh yeah, I loved that dress in the dance club. It was not as great as the one she wore on Conan last night, but it was even shorter and leggier. I am glad Joss likes to sex it up a bit. I just hope it doesn't turn off female viewers too much.
[ edited by Jaynes Hat on 2009-02-14 07:14 ]
Jayne's Hat | February 13, 22:03 CET
PaulfromSunnydale | February 13, 22:04 CET
Topher wins the UnpluggedCrazy Best Frakking Character in This Whole Show Award already. Everything that came out of Fran Kranz's mouth was gold. Such a sarcastic, arrogant, little prick...ah, I love it. Like I said to my friend, he's like the Randal Graves of Dollhouse (cookie to those who get the reference). A lot of people seem huge on Boyd, and while I do like him, he's perhaps my least favorite character so far.
Also, there was very nice symbolism here. Echo rescues the girl from a cocoon-like chamber, only to immediately climb into a cocoon-like chamber herself. There were some other thoughts I had too, but I am going to have to rewatch this puppy. Might even do a lil' review.
UnpluggedCrazy | February 13, 22:04 CET
savagenapkin | February 13, 22:06 CET
I'll watch the next few episodes to see how the show goes, but I'm not really impressed so far. There's no real attachment to any of the characters and we NEED that.
Best thing this episode: shirtless Tamoh Penikett.
pngaou | February 13, 22:06 CET
WZS™.
@theonetruebix | February 13, 22:07 CET
Lots of little clues in there that I missed. But maybe I was still asleep from the craptastic non-summer terminator tonight as I previously stated.
Jayne's Hat | February 13, 22:11 CET
wiesengrund | February 13, 22:12 CET
Let Down | February 13, 22:13 CET
snot monster from outer space | February 13, 22:13 CET
Must rewatch. STAT.
phlebotinin | February 13, 22:17 CET
Romo Lampkin | February 13, 22:18 CET
Personally I liked it a lot. Not quite to the love stage yet but was instantly reminded of what I've been missing in television lately. There's always so much more to a Whedon show than what lies on the surface and Dollhouse is no exception.
I was worried about Eliza in this role, especially after reading critic after critic pan her versatility. But I saw four different characters tonight. Maybe I'll change my mind as we see more but for now I'm impressed.
As for the people who keep asking why you would go to the Dollhouse for your needs, I can only ask why wouldn't you? Clearly the Dollhouse has a reputation for delivering exactly what you need at any given time and they can do it almost instantly. If you can't go to the police and have to hire a kidnapping negotiator, why try to find a good one when you can go to people who can basically create the one most suited for your particular situation? Obviously there are some moral/ethical questions here about the type of people who would use a service like this but, those aside, I don't really see the argument for why you wouldn't use them. Especially since the Dollhouse clearly has been around for awhile and they seem to be running a multitude of engagements. If they've got a reputation for delivering the goods, then of course people will use their services.
And, yes, nothing thrilled me more than the Grr Argh at the end. Who knew one could love a vanity card so much?
raenstorm | February 13, 22:22 CET
But I did enjoy how it is clearly going to be about identity. I believe Joss said this at one point, and it is the perfect plot for it. I love how right off the bat they say things hinting at the larger theme. What makes us who we are? The setup is perfect for it, because essentially we have a blank slate as the main character. Echo is someone who is no one. She has none of the things that make us real people. As her memories surface, we will get to see, step by step, what builds a person. This is also analyzed while she is active, with a strong focus on personality. This episode said that we are largely made up of our flaws, and that our flaws must be there for our positive qualities to be. This kind of stuff really intrigues me, and I really look forward to more.
I will probably think about this topic all week. YAY! Joss is back on TV!
Giles_314 | February 13, 22:24 CET
And can I say how happy the 'grrr argh' makes me?!?! LOL
embers | February 13, 22:26 CET
More TK...
[ edited by QuoterGal on 2009-02-14 07:28 ]
QuoterGal | February 13, 22:28 CET
The ending was chilling - oh boy, someone's got a sick obsession. What a hook.
Other than that, I did have some fun with which characters in the show correlate somewhat recognizably to characters on Buffy or Angel. Good times: Tahmoh Penicott's agent = Mal; Topher Brink = Xander; Harry Lennix = Giles; Reed Diamond = an older Lindsey.
That's all I got as I'm completely exhausted.
Grrrrrr Arrrrrg
Nite.
Tonya J | February 13, 22:31 CET
Loved it. I'm not a huge fan of procedurals, so I would've preferred it if less time was spent on the hostage situation and more on the stuff that really intrigued me. I already knew the set-up of the show from reading about it, and I'd seen the Big Spa before, but I wasn't prepared for how effectively the show creeped me out. The cut from "what if actions didn't have consequences?" to the motorcycle chase was perfect and I was hooked from there. Once you get involved in the world, everything that happens is tinged with this eerie mournfulness.
So it bummed me out a bit that the majority of the episode did its best to bury such a cool and unique vibe. The hostage negotiator idea wasn't bad by any means, and it's really interesting when you start to care about the scarred psyche of what's essentially a fabricated personality, especially when there's ANOTHER real person (Echo) being victimized by that personality. But what I got from the hostage stuff was more of a "huh, that's interesting" intellectual-type appreciation than the visceral almost-nausea of the stuff that dealt with who Echo is. I realize that they can't deal with who Echo is all the time; if they did, the show would have to be a miniseries or a movie. But I hope that in future episodes the two parts of the show match tonally a bit better. And I'm not worried because, even with these criticisms, I thought it was great and it seems headed in the right direction.
Phlogiston | February 13, 22:34 CET
[ edited by The One True b!X on 2009-02-14 07:35 ]
@theonetruebix | February 13, 22:34 CET
The less good stuff:
- Bit stingy on funny moments.
- Gratuitous, much? from the credits through the dance scene. And yes, forgettable music. But possibly it was wiped from my brain.
- Not very smooth, storyline-wise, with some moments not really meshing logically with others or seeming randomly pieced together. That may smooth out on a second-watching.
- Some of the in-the-Dollhouse scenes rang fairly hollow. Why the big spa set-up at all? Do their blank personas live to get massaged?
- Some iffy acting moments.
The good stuff:
- Loved that I got invested in the Ms. Penn persona and was rooting for her alternative happy ending through Echo's "adventure."
- Love the deeper setup of personas with fully human flaws and history; still, this seemed a bit inconsistent with the fluffy perfect date premise set up right off.
- Definitely some promising characters, some very interesting ethics at play, and some rogue action to look forward to. Much yay.
- Some awesome acting moments.
- Grr argh! My first live Whedon TV premiere.
Jav | February 13, 22:40 CET
Samantha | February 13, 22:44 CET
b!X- I'm sorry the spots with Summer & Eliza made you want to vomit. I found myself cheering! Nothing wrong with some of our favorite actresses promoting their show. It was more proof that FOX does wants Dollhouse & T:SCC to succeed.
The show was very intriguing. I found myself feeling sorry for Eco and interested in her story right away. The scene with the young blonde strapped to the chair with needles in her head was disturbing. I thought Echo was going to run in and save her but I guessing we will learn later.
Tahmoh’s character was very likeable & very intense. I can’t wait to learn more about his character as well.
Spacegirl3200 | February 13, 22:50 CET
1) I can see where I'm going to have difficulty investing in the characters that are actives since they are so devoid of personality. I was vibing on Eleanor Penn but we'll never see her again...or will we? I would definitely bring back the implanted personalities that become popular for another spin.
2) It's hard for me to imagine any scenario where a guy orders up an active and doesn't end with "oh yeah I'm going to want to do her so make her hot." When the father of the kidnapped girl said he'd have a bed turned down for Eleanor I was like huh? Did he order ala carte?
IMMORTAL | February 13, 22:52 CET
[ edited by montresor on 2009-02-14 07:53 ]
montresor | February 13, 22:52 CET
If you mean the teaser, I'm rewatching it now, and wondering if her imperfection might be the bit where she's a sore loser. Or, one of her imperfections, anyway.
sumogrip | February 13, 22:52 CET
hacksaway | February 13, 23:03 CET
1) I was worried about Dushku being able to pull it off, but I thought she did a great job. Also, my husband, who disliked Faith enough to not really want to watch this, decided at the last minute to watch it with me and said, "I like her MUCH better in this show."(!)
And 2) the whole business of not being able to connect with Echo was not a problem for me at all. When she sat down in that chair happy & feeling like she was falling in love with a great guy, and woke up having forgotten all about him, I felt that loss she couldn't feel. And the same again when they wiped away her triumph over the negotiator's abuser. For me that was really sad.
I agree with criticisms of the first scene and of the heavy exposition, but there was much of interest here, and I can't wait to see the rest of it.
jcs | February 13, 23:03 CET
Just a couple of quick likes and dislikes:
Dislikes first, 'cause no one likes to end on a sour note:
-The kickboxing. Wholly unnecessary.
-Opening the show with Adelle and Caroline/Echo. It set a weird tone right from the get-go that was hard to shake.
-Who the hell are all these people? A lot of info was thrown at us, and not enough all at once. I'm curious to see how the characters of Adelle and Boyd are fleshed out, but they both left me cold tonight.
And now the stuff I liked:
-I was pleasantly surprised by Topher. From the previews I had seen, I thought he was going to put me off right from the start, but I found myself more intrigued by his character than anyone else's.
-Sierra commanding that hideaway, guns a-blazin'. That was a nice climactic visual to what could have become a weepfest of a hostage situation.
-The creepifying tone and musical score. Very effective.
-Eliza. 'Nuff said.
I can't wait to see what's in store in the coming weeks, especially the oft-talked about episode 6.
Joss and co., if you're reading this, I think you've got the potential for a fantastic show. Best of luck to you!
kasadilla | February 13, 23:07 CET
theforgottenslayer | February 13, 23:13 CET
I admit that I questioned whether she would come off as believable in all of the different personas she would assume as an "active": I'd never seen her work outside of the Buffyverse. I had no reason to worry, however. She did quite well, and I was surprised to see how much I cared about what was happening to her. I'm glad there were vulnerable moments. I look forward to seeing how Joss develops her awareness.
I'm a little irritated that screen time was utilized on showboating crap like the motorcycle racing/dancing instead of more character development, but I guess those were attention getting moments, and this was a premier. Ergo flashy bikes and provocative dancing.
Overall, I enjoyed it. I'm so pleased Joss is finally back making "small screen" serials. It's a real pleasure.
Rebekah | February 13, 23:19 CET
The day after - much discussion about ratings
A couple of days after - glee over the trailer and related promotional material
Days after - meta discussion
Simon | February 13, 23:21 CET
jcs | February 13, 23:26 CET
DisChunk | February 13, 23:28 CET
But I do have one question for Joss:
Why do you write such strong asthmatic characters?
AlanD | February 13, 23:29 CET
Oh, and apologies if this link was posted somewhere up above! That's a lot of comments to sift through, and I am, in a word, lazy.
kasadilla | February 13, 23:32 CET
RollingInKittens | February 13, 23:37 CET
Don't think the Terminator crowd will necessarily stay tuned for Dollhouse. Thought that was the point of the first 15 minutes was to lure us boys in with the motorcyles and short dresses. Don't think many of them stayed on after that though.
In another vein, did anyone else get the feeling that Eliza was projecting some weird SMG-like vibe. In some scenes I had this feeling of deja vu tied to SMG, couldn't shake it. My buddy watching with me said something to the effect that he thought it was the Buffy chick. I mentioned that she had been on Buffy - that she was Faith - and he said he didn't mean it that way but that he thought for a minute she was Buffy - with dark hair.
Anyway, I think I'm going to live this show week to week. Hoping for the best but sort of having this bad feeling. At least Joss has 12 episodes to get a foothold in.
North | February 13, 23:42 CET
It's not the promotion that bothers me, obviously. It's that they had to act like idiots.
@theonetruebix | February 13, 23:51 CET
What I'm interested in is how far will the house allow a client to go with one of the dolls. Say a really rich client likes to rape women who really believe they are being raped and wants to be able to do that with little fear of repercussions; Would that be fair game? As long as the doll isn't physically damaged? Would the house believe that they are doing the society good since the victim would soon be mind wiped and would be no victim left? Or would they see that a bit like participating in a drugged up date rape? Or some less icky scenario.
beckyboo | February 13, 23:55 CET
I don't know why reviewers said there was no humor. I laughed a bunch of times. I also enjoyed Topher more than I thought I would.
hacksaway | February 14, 00:03 CET
Butler | February 14, 00:05 CET
Also, Amy Acker is already making my heart ache for her character, and we've barely met her. This is a completely new side of her, and it's utterly haunting.
[ edited by zoinkers on 2009-02-14 09:14 ]
zoinkers | February 14, 00:11 CET
But, on to my own two cents...
I could have done w/out Caroline, or at least the yearbook thing, but at the same time I get where he was going with it and I respect it.
I thought that this pilot did an amazing job setting up people and relationships in no time at all (see "tyrant") and with every character I was left wanting to know more about them. I think the perfect example of that is Dr. Saunders. She had almost no time, but the scars on her face--and especially the way she was AWARE of the scars, all the time, in the very way she moved--really conveyed a ton of answers and questions about why she was there.
I didn't like the credits and was disappointed by the crappy non-song that had been hand designed by two people whose music I love, but my father loved it and swears it's perfect, so there you go...
I didn't notice any exposition in dialog, which is a huge compliment, actually. I mean, I noticed that I got information, but I was sucked into the storytelling and the people and I never felt like I was waiting out a monologue so we could get back to the show. So...points!
I liked Paul's introduction a lot, and I thought the boxing was a great way of explaining his personality, but while I liked his scenes individually after that, they didn't quite seem to mesh with the rest of the show.
Naked in a house full of dead bodies: icky thought process, no matter what your reasons. Not that I'm criticizing the idea, just noticing the character. Was it the "Lizzy Bordon" thing from Angel? (Did I spell that right? Oh, well.)
All in all, I really liked it and I think it will appeal to a wide audience, because it was both smart and understandable (except when it wasn't...understandable that is, Joss is always smart:).
About the personality engineering--it reminded me (and my father, we watched it together) a lot of roll playing. We have family friends who are very into Ars Magica and in that game you have to balance your strengths with weaknesses. It makes a person realistic, definitely, and it answers a lot of my questions about Dollhouse. I also loved Topher's explanation of it.
I didn't think the asthma was linked specifically to one of the "good" traits, I just thought that there had to be bad traits so he took ones that made sense and worked. I guess it's a question of how big his parts are--are they slices of people, or are they little nuts and bolts and easily separated washers?
Anyway, asthma may be a problem for the character, yes, but it made a ton of sense as a choice. People who have been physically abused/violated often have physical symptoms that manifest around it...so she needed a debilitating physical reaction to stress and danger, and asthma allows her to keep her head, unlike panic attacks, fainting spells, or the like.
Anyway, that was a really long yay vote.
I'm such a dork for not getting the ghost line. Must sleep and watch again. I think I'm a fan, and I think I'll like it better the next time. And the next time, and the next time, and...the...
*snore* (but in a feminine way, of course)
heinouslizard | February 14, 00:13 CET
I totally agree Bix. For some reason it made me feel like I was back in high school, and the popular cheerleaders were trying to coerce me into going to a football game I had no intention of being suckered into attending.
"Like, come to the big game, like, okay?"
Rebekah | February 14, 00:16 CET
zoinkers | February 14, 00:18 CET
I bet Eliza and Summer could manage a synchronized high-kick, though, which is more than I can say for the cheerleaders we had...:)
[ edited by heinouslizard on 2009-02-14 09:22 ]
[ edited by heinouslizard on 2009-02-14 09:22 ]
heinouslizard | February 14, 00:21 CET
zoinkers | February 14, 00:24 CET
Valse | February 14, 00:24 CET
ricetxpeaches | February 14, 00:25 CET
Becca5002 | February 14, 00:26 CET
Doesn't look like it to me.
@theonetruebix | February 14, 00:28 CET
zoinkers | February 14, 00:34 CET
The helmet-throwing was absurd, as was the highly abbreviated dress. If the helmet had fallen off, it would have made sense, since taking the time to put it back on would have resulted in the guy getting that much more of an advantage in the race.
Anyway. I liked that we got to see who Echo was when she was actually her own person. Didn't expect that. Topher and Dr. Saunders are awesome. I loved the double-meaning of Topher's "running from something" bit, with how he was looking at heavily and mysteriously scarred Dr. Saunders with great interest while saying it.
The boxing scene actually made sense to me, even if it was rather gratuitous. Whenever he was making his points to the FBI blokes, he'd be rallying in the match, and whenever they were shooting him down, he'd be taking quite a beating in the match. And then, though he appeared to have conceded at the end of the conversation, he came out victorious in the match, so we know he's not the type to be giving up quite that easily.
Loved the bit in the bathroom. Loved the seemingly out-of-nowhere cliffhanger ending. Loved the flaws/strengths balancing and their unforeseen complications with the Miss Penn persona (and the promise of future such unforeseen complications). ADORED the redemption via Echo of the unknown real personality who was kidnapped and later committed suicide. "You can't fight a ghost," indeed. PERFECT.
Also, since watching the episode, I've realized that the premise of the show simultaneously reminds me of The Island and Red vs. Blue: Reconstruction. Which, since I think both are awesome, I find nifty. And it doesn't remind me of them to the point that I feel like I'm watching either with a Jossian makeover. I just love the connection that all three deal with personality and memory and their roles in defining who we are and what makes us human.
Definitely going to watch it again tomorrow, and cannot wait for next Friday.
Taaroko | February 14, 00:38 CET
If I'm right, the narrative to that sub-plot will show Alpha, the first doll created, demonstrating the dangers of ever imprinting someone with all strengths, and no flaws, with skill in many different disciplines; our flaws, perhaps, are what constrain our behavior, teach us through failure that some courses of action are immoral or impossible. For someone without flaw, carrying the skills of a dozen people who were the best at what they did, there is neither a moral nor a practical restraint on committing acts which would be impossible, for one reason or another, for the rest of us.
Just thinking out loud, but that's a place that I, at least, would be interested in seeing Joss explore.
Mercenary | February 14, 00:41 CET
But, while I do find it an engaging writing point to debate, my problem with it isn't a large enough quibble for me to get worked up over. Heh.
@theonetruebix | February 14, 00:42 CET
@theonetruebix | February 14, 00:43 CET
I kinda wish they'd held a bit longer on Echo's expression as the 'bed' closes - I remember it from an early promo and it's stuck with me.
zoinkers | February 14, 00:43 CET
@theonetruebix | February 14, 00:49 CET
zoinkers | February 14, 00:51 CET
So far, I have the most connection with Boyd, and I'm intrigued by Adelle. I liked that they went as far as to show Caroline signing up for the Dollhouse, and we saw her before she was Echo in that video too (unless that was an imprint, of course).
Anyway, more thoughts after I've watched it again. Nothing sounded as good as the Grr Aargh at the end. I hope the ratings were good :) Nice work team.
Arabchick | February 14, 01:10 CET
LOVING:
• Eliza's acting. I think she's doing a great job. She's got layers, and nuance, and she's doing good combos and variations of energy/power and withholding/subtlety. The only thing I can see - and I've seen it mentioned somewhere that Joss wanted less "bedroom eyes" from Eliza in one scene - is that maybe she has a hard time laying back on the "love me" attraction/charm stuff. It's so automatic for most actors - radiating that old sexy charm - that it can be hard to turn off. But like Adam Baldwin has said, it's better to have to be reined in than be pushed to do more, and I know Eliza can stretch her wings now that she has a role worthy of her talent.
• Everybody else's acting. They're all good - nothing less than top performers, I thought - Amy was perfect as the Doctor, Adelle rocked as Olivia, and everybody else was smashing. I can't wait to see more, especially of the other Actives. BTW, I hope we get to see some male Actives sometime soon, other than in the background, or this Dollhouse will start to feel lopsided.
• The writing - despite the many Exposition Songs that had had to be sung, this stuff was handled smoothly, and we've already got a good taste of how each character thinks & speaks - and a sense of what they're willing to show, and what they're hiding. There's humor, and subtlety, and in your face bad-assery and already a great variety of colors and tones. Nifty. There were a few things that seemed "hit you over the head with it" - like the boxing scene with Paul - but I dunno if that will feel the same for everyone.
• The direction. Joss obviously loves actors, and it shows. As usual in his shows, everyone seemed to work well as an ensemble, and there were no wrong notes, or over-the-topness, etc. That's good direction.
• Production values. Just top-notch. The Dollhouse set is lovely on the surface, but with glimpses of the creepy underneath. Everything else looked and felt right - kinda noir and very L.A. Special effects very... um, effective. (And gods, that refrigerator prison box was just horrible.) Oh, and the Chinatown shoot was beautifully done.
NOT SO MUCH:
• The Summer-Eliza Interstitial bits. Bleh and serious feh. While seeing these two together was initially quite nifty (for about three seconds) the writing made me want to spork myself in the gelatinous optical orbs. Coy, arch, juvenile, inane. FOX, please. What's a "girl" gotta do to make you never do that again!
• Miss Penn in the van - from personality fall-apart to Negotiator With a Plan happened too quickly for me. I got past it fine, but it pulled me out for a while. I understand why she broke like that, but not why she got her shit together so fast just afterwards.
• Caroline and her Consequences. I thought it was maybe a little clunky to have this scene all at once at the top. I thought it could've been shown in flashes throughout and worked a little more effectively. But no biggee.
• Fox Action-Station touches. I don't need constant action and car chases and fights and movement to keep me occupied or entertained (although I do look forward to some things being blowed-up real good) - but on the other hand, I didn't mind it, either. Just don't shoehorn stuff in at the expense of much needed time to let things unfold.
Well, I could go on and on about it overall - there's so much to it, and so much that's very cool - the mirroring of the Ghosts imagery, the different little boxes and confined spaces conveying a sort of identity confinement in the midst of wide open spaces, Topher as the masterminding artist, etc,. etc. I did especially like the visuals on the credits & the musical theme works for me.
I'm looking forward - greatly - to re-watching this episode, and to seeing what's lined up for us next.
One thing:
Jaynes Hat: "Why did they choose that part of the song for the title though? They chopped out all the words and played the la la la part of the song."
They didn't really chop out the words - according to Jonatha, the "la la la" is what Joss wanted for the show theme, and the wordish stanzas were written & added for a later music video.
Finally, my partner, who can be very laconic in his appreciation, turned to me when the show was over and said, "That was amazing. Are you going to post something on that Whedon-place you visit? 'Cause tell Joss I think his new show is amazing."
So I done it.
QuoterGal | February 14, 01:37 CET
Maybe they use some characteristics of others, in the form of abilities and knowledge to give her greater advantage, but perhaps there is an over-riding conciousness they are using to imprint onto Echo. And perhaps the conciousness of the person they are imprinting on her would depend on certain aspects of that person being present in order to keep the illusion of this reality in place. That person was nearsighted, therefore, Echo must be made to be; same for the asthma. Because the imprint carries memories, such as the one of the kidnapper, and mingled with those memories are the physical characteristics. Too much to take out. Therefore, it is simpler to include the physical characteristics to complete the expectation. Remember that Adelle expressed that it was important for Echo to believe in the illusion and not to suspect that it was false. Perhaps not having those physical characteristics would impede the illusion.
I figured that I'd probably enjoy the show, but I didn't expect I'd do as much speculating about the future as I had for Buffy and Angel. (Missed most of Firefly when it was airing due to the messed-upedness of the scheduling -- watched it on DVD 3-4 epidodes concurrently each day over about a week in the summer of 2006. And just about cried when it was over.) But I am! My mind was spinning possibilities from the opening scene, and almost nonstop during the show. I love this!
Almost missed out on the Grr Argh at the end, but I just caught it. What a welcome sight and sound!
Judy | February 14, 01:40 CET
I liked it. I liked Eliza's performance. I don't understand all the nay-saying in that regard. I loved the part when Topher talks about flaws, and how every person who reaches success in something is overcompensating for something else. It's good food for thought, Joss style.
What I really have a problem with are the commercials. Is it just me or are there more commercial breaks? I mean, yes, they are short commercial breaks, but I'd rather have a few longer breaks than a lot of little short ones. It kept taking me out of the story, and that was frustrating. Plus, I like the longer breaks for going and getting food... or you know, seeing a man about a horse (don't make me spell it out, cause TMI).
I felt that it was a bit cold -- lacking the humor of Joss' other shows. But I was also expecting that, and hey, if I had to rewrite a pilot at the last minute I think I would definitely be lacking in the humor department as well.
I think I like Boyd the most so far too. Though Sierra's entrance at the ending was pretty bad ass.
Definitely intrigued to see what comes next.
ShanshuBugaboo | February 14, 01:41 CET
the writing made me want to spork myself in the gelatinous optical orbs. Coy, arch, juvenile, inane.
I wholeheartedly agree. I was quite embarrassed at that.
ShanshuBugaboo | February 14, 01:45 CET
Was put off by the obvious Foxification of the first 10 minutes or so, but after that much improvement; by the last 10 minutes there were definite stirrings of giddiness and anticipation for next week's episode.
It's early for getting meta, but I can't help myself. Maybe Topher's lingering explanation of the importance of flaws in creating a fully believable identity can be applied to the structure of this initial episode as a whole? IOW, "Ghost" needs its flaws to be fundamentally approachable and vulnerable to our fantasies. If it was too perfect, too shiny and impenetrable, there'd be no place for us (more critical viewers/fans) to fit into it. Instead there's "stuff" we can do to it already -- mentally manipulating it to make it better in our mind's eye -- which allows each one of us to replay it and make it our own. The flaws actually make it more interesting.
How participatory. And voyeuristic. I'm intrigued ... and already compromised. I feel a little dirty now. Nice job! ;)
Wiseblood | February 14, 01:46 CET
I found myself empathising with Echo's character, which is good, since I was worried that I wouldn't. I also thought that Eliza Dushku carried off all the parts well. What I liked particularly about blank-Echo was that she wasn't entirely blank. She had an edge to her, like something was still going on, like she was fighting to put something together. And I thought that was great.
Like someone theorised above, I'm also wondering if maybe the Dollhouse had bad experiences in the past with making an all-strengths-no-weaknesses active, and if that might be why they made Echo's character more human.
I didn't get to see the Grr Argh at the end, which made me sad, but I guess I'll get to see that when Dollhouse finally comes out over here. (I remember that at the end of Doctor Horrible, the Grr Argh was the one thing that could cheer me up after Penny's death.) I really liked the opening credits, though; but I guess since I was less into Firefly's theme song, it's just a matter of different tastes.
I'm really looking forward to next week. Also: this is my first Whedon premier as a member of Whedonesque (I was still just lurking when Doctor Horrible came out) and it's nice to be able to be part of that excitement and analysis. Not that I'm contributing anything, but still, it's nice.
snowinhell | February 14, 01:52 CET
I'm giddy! *waves to everyone*
I watched this with my friends, including someone who told me she had no idea why Joss was such a big deal, and even she loved it. :) Also, the other members of my viewing party loved it too! We're going to get together for next week!
I think this pilot does a great job roping in the casual viewer. It's premise is so open-ended and leaves much more to explore. There are so many directions this story can go. I'm left wondering: what IS the history of the dollhouse? What is Echo's real life, and why did she agree to sign the contract? Maybe someone finds out too much about the dollhouse, and their memory (or the memory of a main character) gets wiped and they become a completely different person? So much potential plot yumminess!
It was pretty cool to see all the parallels between Ms. Penn and Echo: the buried memories, and the struggle to find and assert who they are. Perhaps I'm stating the obvious - I have not been following these forums - but it seems like some of who Echo actually is mixes in with the imprints. As in, Echo doesn't simply come in during those brief flashes when she sees Echo's memories, but the "essence" of Echo herself also changes the people she becomes. The abused girl or woman who became part of her person had killed herself. But in Echo, she confronted her abuser and stayed strong.
Topher's explanation about both strengths and weaknesses, and how people have strengths because they're "overcompensating" for things, seems to be a "mission statement" for the show - that who we are is how we make ourselves. ALso, does this mean Boyd is a rookie? Because why would he need this explained to him?
It would be fun to see some of the same imprints come back, or even in other "dolls"(!). :)
As for the intro, I liked the fact that only Eliza was in it. It made me have no idea who in the pilot might die. ;) As you can tell, I'm spoiler-free. :)
Am I the only one who thought that Tahmoh's gratuitous long boxing scene was a way to rope in the OTHER half of people out there who might appreciate such things? :)
I also found a good dose of funny in the episode. Loved the setup of Ms. Penn being nearsighted so that when Boyd saw her confused look, he thought for a moment she was Echo again.
As for the first job... totally screams Fox. It was completely unrelated to the rest of the episode. It basically set out a male fantasy, and came off exactly as the kind of show one would expect from the commercials. Still, it's also not completely worthless because it sets up the prostitution/trafficking/something-is-wrong-here angle. It was also nice to see that this first imprint was not a stereotype: she had her own sweet affection for the guy, and actually had her own motivations. I also loved how the memory wipe brought us backward in time through her memories, gave us the beginning of the date, and then went back to her childhood - showing us these are full
I like how the pilot has established that the imprints can have flaws. It makes every "engagement" suspenseful. It's not like watching The Matrix, where the people had the powers of superheroes. Here, the imprints are actually like regular human beings (sure, some extraordinary, but each one is a fully fleshed, sympathetic person). Also, perhaps some imprints will not be sympathetic people - that would be interesting to see.
Add me to the chorus of people who love the "ghost" line. Such a great moment when you think of it from the abuser's point of view.
As you can see I'm gushing over this pilot! There's so much potential. I watched the pilots for Buffy, Angel, and Firefly, and I thought they were pretty good introductions to their respective worlds and a taste of what would follow. At the same time, I wasn't very sure if they would win over the general television-viewing audience. I loved Serenity, but I was also uncertain how it would be received. I have only watched a few series over the years because I have so little free time, but with my little TV-watching experience, I must say that when I watched the pilots for Alias, Lost, and Battlestar Galactica, I had this gut feeling that they would be successful shows. I have that same feeling with this one, too. It's original, fresh, intriguing, and seems pregnang with possibilities. Sex, mystery, action, and plot twists - what more could you ask for? ;)
I know folks love to analyze here, and I'm as ready as the next one to pick an episode apart, but I also like what I'm feeling in my gut right now. Bring on next Friday!!
P.S. - I have one question. For us spoilerphobes, is it safe to go back and look through the spoiler threads? Or will there get spoiled about future episodes?
[ edited by Ronald_SF on 2009-02-14 11:12 ]
[ edited by Ronald_SF on 2009-02-14 11:17 ]
Ronald_SF | February 14, 02:10 CET
One of Many | February 14, 02:15 CET
TOA!!!!!!!!!
Lockescythe | February 14, 02:35 CET
So, basically, I thought it was a little flawed but totally awesome and if this is the slow start we were supposed to fear I'm pretty damn excited about what will happen when it picks up pace
Oh and that was a freaky mask
Let Down | February 14, 02:36 CET
Let Down | February 14, 02:37 CET
I love all the characters so far... I can't tell if "Victor" is already part of the Dollhouse, or if Ballard's words got him mixed up in it. Anyways, I found the men's room scene rather hilarious. I don't know if that's because it was, or because I've had a tiring day... whatever. I'm so back next week!
Unfortunately, my download didn't have the Grr! Argh! Sadness. :(
Braeden Fireheart | February 14, 02:39 CET
I was so put off by the Summer/Eliza intro, as well as the overkill of the micro-mimi white dress and the totally disconnected motorcycle race with the cheesy, staged "oops, I lost my helmet so my sexy hair can fly" part, it left a bad taste in my mouth for the rest of the show.
All I could think was sexist/exploitative (about the intro) and clunky, cheesy, badly edited "did this really belong in this ep, originally", about the dance club/motorcycle bit.
It felt as it Fox not only meddled in that sequence, but totally constructed it from something that belonged in another ep entirely (maybe originally was in a different ep?)
The degree of exposition was downright intelligence-insulting, IMO (somthing for which I certainly don't blame Joss). I just felt beaten over the head with it. Including the boxing sequence, which would have been very effective, if they'd cut it time-wise by about two thirds. The entire first part of the show felt to me like something quilted together from pieces that were originally meant to be spread around in different eps.
I loved the very first scenes between Eliza and Oliva Williams. After that, it was almost as if they switched to a different show, then switched back again.
What I loved: the acting, uniformly excellent. I had faith ;) in Eliza and she didn't disappoint.
The closing sequence, which set up the possibility of something actually coherent but at the same time, intriguing and full of layered mystery (something that the dumbed-down first part of the ep lacked entirely, again so obviously no fault of Joss's but with the fingerprints of Fox meddling all over it).
I like the opening theme but wasn't crazy about the background music during the ep.
Hoping for better things to come. I know the better stuff has to be there, I just hope that we don't have to endure another five eps (as both Joss and Eliza have hinted) of over-exposition, disjointed sequences designed to work in "just enough" action, whether or not the storyline calls for it at that particular moment, and unworthy (for Joss) dialog, to suit the suits.
Hopefully, I'll like it better the second time around. Skipping the Eliza/Summer lead-in will help.
ETA: That came off more negative than I meant it to be. Just want to make it clear that all my problems with this ep are so obviously Fox-related, and that left me so needing to vent that I left out lots that I liked. Will get to that later.
I now understand the Fox hate, and how it was assumed that they would find a way to fuck with the genius that is Joss.
[ edited by Shey on 2009-02-14 11:58 ]
Shey | February 14, 02:41 CET
Let Down | February 14, 02:42 CET
This looks like it has the potential to be quite a complex series, which may reflect how much Joss and his colleagues have grown, and gained experience since the days of B+A, and Firefly. IMHO :-)
Rosalind | February 14, 03:00 CET
cup-of-tea | February 14, 03:32 CET
I also liked it way more than "City of", slightly more than "Welcome to the Hellmouth", and kind of on par with "The Train Job".
wiesengrund | February 14, 04:05 CET
Ratings are going to arrive in a few hours time.
gossi | February 14, 04:10 CET
Dana5140 | February 14, 05:15 CET
I have a feeling the pilot perhaps would have been better if they had started with the child being kidnapped . It's just far more compelling, and you would want to know what happened next. Starting with Echo partying wasn't exactly grabbing, despite the obvious cheap shots - short skirt, hot red bikes racing, hair toss etc. Was that more grabbing for the gents out there?
I think those scenes had their place, but maybe the order could have been better?
*dodges the cans being thrown at her*
Ivalaine | February 14, 05:30 CET
Dana, I agree, I think Deech will be the breakout from this show. She's glorious.
gossi | February 14, 05:35 CET
zeitgeist | February 14, 05:36 CET
Ivalaine | February 14, 05:38 CET
zeitgeist | February 14, 05:42 CET
OK, very late to the party so sorry folks, just skimmed your no-doubt witty, thoughtful, erudite comments.
I'm not sure if i've totally ODed on Kool-Aid and can't tell good Joss from bad Joss anymore but that, to me, was a great pilot.
I'm already engaged with the main characters and intensely curious about the others and though I don't like Echo yet (cos right now there's no there there) i'm already on her side. It's touched on the arc, it showed the ambiguity without making any simple-minded judgments, it had me actually willing one character (Boyd) to stay his course above all else (all humans reading this probably know at what point) and that's after "knowing" him for, what, 40 minutes ? And it had a genuinely dark moment of suspense, an actual doubt as to what would happen, with an instant payoff (when she asks for her glasses - my only issue with that being, why wasn't she wiped ? Did Miss Penn abort the process before Topher started ?).
It did everything I wanted of it basically, it showed me the path without telling me the destination. Made me feel good in parts and then ask myself why and the same with feeling bad. Plus, humour - which reviewers said this didn't have any ? Maniacs ;).
(and I love the early hint that what Echo becomes is always unique, always different, always more than the sum of her "component parts". The poor woman that was abused couldn't get past what happened to her but Ellie Penn could cos Ellie Penn has just a little bit of Caroline/Echo in her)
It's gonna get dark though I think, it's gonna genuinely ask some hard questions - not the nice abstract ones we can all shoot the breeze about and think nothing of 5 minutes later, real, difficult, "this might hurt a bit" questions about society and where we all stand in it. Can't wait ;).
Saje | February 14, 05:49 CET
gossi | February 14, 05:50 CET
I really hope Dollhouse shows up on iTunes. I need something to keep me going at the gym. (I haven't gone regularly since they moved Buffy and Angel reruns too early for me to get out of bed!)
Nebula1400 | February 14, 05:54 CET
After all the bad press, I was very pleasently suprised by Eliza's acting. And after all the talk of dumbing things down I was expecting the conversation between Adelle and Echo to run like a clear cut introduction to make sure everyone in the audience would fully understand what the Dollhouse is: something like Adelle explaining how the Dollhouse works, maybe over a montage with give some examples of actives on their missions. Instead there was the sudden cut to the motor racing. I didn't know what to make of that one immediately : wondered if it was a flashback or flashforward, so instead of the overly explicit exposition aimed at Joe Regular I was expecting, the show started out confusing to someone who knew all about the premise.
Having read there would be a sexual and an action oriented engagementin the first ep and having seen the first trailer, with the date with the older guy and the mexican assasin engagements, I was expecting the first one to be my favourite.
In the actual episode however, I was hugely dissapointed with the first engagement. Really strange the show opened with such a terrible act, I hope it didn't turn away to many viewers. (why didn't they kept the one from the original trailer or put in something else all togheter, this one wasn't connected to the rest of the episode anyway.)
Then I was very pleasantly surprised with the "Ghost" storyline. I actually got involved with the story and love how it shows all the ways in which the show can work. IMO the second half of the show already was one of the best pieces of television of the year.
The FBI storyline, which I somehow expected to hate after the first released scene, the one with "Echo" and the FBI agent, also worked absolutely perfect. (Also didn't mind the boxing at all.) The inner workings of the Dollhouse were just as intriguing as I had expected, but the huge power of the Lennix character was something I hadn't seen coming at all.
the Groosalugg | February 14, 06:03 CET
And yeah, I meant to mention Eliza cos I really believed her as Miss Penn, again, totally disagree with whichever reviewer said he only saw Eliza in a business suit she was plainly a different character to the first engagement (which I think they included largely to have a bit of throwaway action PLUS show us how the imprinting worked before the setup with Miss Penn).
Saje | February 14, 06:11 CET
"Ghost at the Independent Comics Site
Xyrqurqualym | February 14, 06:14 CET
[ edited by Tymen on 2009-02-14 15:21 ]
Tymen | February 14, 06:21 CET
So to add my own for other people not to get through:
Like Eliza. But Joss thinks a lot more of her acting ability than I do. Miss Penn... didn't buy it.
Didn't buy Topher's explanation (such as I understood it) of why the Actives are given flaws and background traumas. Nevertheless, found the impact of the realization that Echo's been given those flaws very moving, somehow.
Why do we go in with Helo, er, Paul already suspecting the Dollhouse exists and even having the name "Dollhouse"? Are we going to get more information on how he discovered this? It just seems out of nowhere.
If it weren't Joss, I doubt I'd be sticking with it, but it's Joss, and he gets all the benefit of the doubt in the world from me, for very obvious reasons.
Oh, the promos? Summer and Eliza, both of whom I like (adore Summer), as dimwits? Hated them. HATED them.
Kirochka | February 14, 06:22 CET
I was more impressed with Echo wiped. There must have been a lot of discussion around how to act in that state. How much knowledge do they have? Why don't they question everything?
Lioness | February 14, 06:24 CET
I agree with what some people have said here about the first 10 minutes being a bit rocky. But I can't imagine that that many people really stop watching a show if they don't love the first ten minutes (assuming it's not truly dire).
I have a fair number of friends who I plan on encouraging to watch Dollhouse on Hulu (sadly it's not on Australia TV) but I was going to wait until 2 or 3 episodes were out because I thought that 'Ghost' might not make a big enough impression. But given how strong 'Ghost' is I think I can start the gentle bullying ahead of schedule
[ edited by Let Down on 2009-02-14 15:27 ]
Let Down | February 14, 06:25 CET
I thought it was great! It had the excellent Joss Whedon feel to it but it was unique to the show and the Dollhouse set was awesome - kind of like hotel/spa version of Wolfram & Hart. I loved the boxing scene. As for the opening credits music: it wasn't what I expected, but it was nice, I liked as Nolan said the 'tinker-toy-esque' end.
The plot and dialogue was strong as I reckon Dollhouse has great potential.
Shep | February 14, 06:25 CET
For example, the Cinderella reference by the "John" (to use a not-entirely-inappropriate phrase), contrasted after she returns with the sarcastic line from Boyd about her finally finding the right guy.
LOTS of Joss there, just not the same Joss who was writing five years ago.
[ edited by PaulfromSunnydale on 2009-02-14 15:31 ]
PaulfromSunnydale | February 14, 06:29 CET
And while on the subject of shows that aired yesterday... OMG, BSG is blowing my mind! O_o
[ edited by Djungelurban on 2009-02-14 15:38 ]
Djungelurban | February 14, 06:30 CET
I thought the episode answered that really well (when the client asks her to prove to him that she knows what she's doing, to tell him why she does it - basically he wanted to know there was a 'soul' behind the imprint and that's partly why Topher does it. As he says, they're not robots, they have to be able to deal with the complexities and demands of the all too messy real world and for that they need to be people, actual and whole - maybe ;) - and people have ghosts, right ? It's what drives us). And more explicitly of course (more plot oriented if you like) the little girl would've been raped and then killed if Echo/Miss Penn hadn't had her flash-back based insight i.e. without her past she'd have been less effective on the mission.
Eliza Dushkus not sexy? Did he see the dress she was in? Her legs in that dress? Is he blind?
Well, sexy is like funny in that it's entirely subjective. Except in this instance, where that guy's just wrong ;).
Saje | February 14, 06:30 CET
That said, I just wish the network(s) would stop meddling so much, this episode had Fox executives all over. I just wish the good stuff comes before people get bored... I mean, just check Buffy pilot or Firefly pilot (the real one). Excellent openings, now just back off, shoo shoo, let us watch creative stuff, not something toned down average appealing-to-masses-with-tits. I do love looking at all those sexy Eliza promo pics, but still the dance was just an annoying waste of time: nice to watch in youtube, but I'd rather see content...
Eerikki | February 14, 06:48 CET
Rowan Hawthorn | February 14, 06:50 CET
flugufrelsarinn | February 14, 06:53 CET
I totally get the flaw thing in general;it makes sense, and adds complexity and interest. But I do think it is somewhat implausible (within this world, I mean, I don't expect actually plausible), that Topher would select the personality of a suicide, especially for an incredibly hazardous situation. I mean, what there is of Caroline in Echo adds some strength, to good effect, ultimately. But what a chance to take with the life of a little girl.
toast | February 14, 06:54 CET
zeitgeist | February 14, 06:56 CET
Kirochka | February 14, 06:56 CET
That said, I wouldn't miss an episode.
doghouse | February 14, 06:58 CET
I just loved this show. It delivered on all the creepy "how deep does the rabbit hole go" stuff. That opening sequence was obviously meant to be cheesy--the point is to show us that the actives are the playthings of rich doofuses (doofi?) whose ideas of a great time are like cliched FOX action shows. This is all part of the Active/Actor metaphor, and perfectly underscores that. But, really, it's pretty obvious that that stuff isn't going to be a big part of the series once things begin to unravel.
snot monster from outer space | February 14, 07:08 CET
nyrk | February 14, 07:36 CET
That suggests to me that their simply not going to bother trying to make this part of the world plausible (rather like the way they just don't bother to really make it believable that no one in Sunnydale knows about vampires...), which is a fair enough genre loophole to exploit.
snot monster from outer space | February 14, 07:47 CET
MikeyB | February 14, 07:47 CET
One qualm: "I've been involved in at least 12 negotiations." At least? Wouldn't that then just be 13 negotiations? That line didn't sit right for me anyway.
Loved it, and want to see the next episode, but I don't think it'll go beyond "entertaining" until a proper arc really starts. Also, Topher rules.
MattK | February 14, 07:50 CET
I thought it was meant to ring oddly--that we were beginning to push the boundaries of her implanted memories.
snot monster from outer space | February 14, 07:59 CET
Well, they did make it clear that he had done business with the Dollhouse before. Presumably he knows from experience that you can't get anything better, so when his daughter got kidnapped it was the first place he went. The one I had a problem with was the all around sucky first engagement, where the necessity of a Doll/Active was far less clear to me.
the Groosalugg | February 14, 08:01 CET
Septimus | February 14, 08:08 CET
Yep, there's a record (though I can't remember which thread or how many posts ;). But nope, this one is a ways off yet.
One qualm: "I've been involved in at least 12 negotiations." At least? Wouldn't that then just be 13 negotiations? That line didn't sit right for me anyway.
I thought it was meant to ring oddly--that we were beginning to push the boundaries of her implanted memories.
Yeah I wondered that too, that Miss Penn/Echo might have some inkling that there're things she's done but doesn't remember.
Re: the first engagement, we don't know how much a doll costs so it's hard to judge just how "perfect" a date would have to be to justify the price to some (ludicrously rich) people. They might do it for the same reason some guys hire prostitutes i.e. not because they have to but partly for the illicit thrill.
Saje | February 14, 08:12 CET
Clearly, the Dollhouse has its own ideas on what it takes to do the job but they must be in synch with their clients most of the time or they wouldn't have repeat business.
I wonder if we will see more about where these personalities come from.
Lioness | February 14, 08:14 CET
Saje | February 14, 08:16 CET
1. I'm not worried about the whole "Personality of the Week" thing. "Monster of the Week" was a non-issue after season one of BtVS and Joss has obviously picked up a thing or two since then.
2. It was my understanding (so quite possibly wrong - I need to rewatch) that the imprinting was a combination of personalities and therefore a bit of a crap shoot with what came out. Meaning, they can't control everything. Lot's o' possibilities.
3. Where do the personalities come from? Are all the people dead? If they're dead, WHY are they dead? If not, what would happen if imprinted Echo ran into the original?
4. There's only so many wealthy people in the world and not everyone will want to indulge in the "service." So, will we have repeat clients on the horizon? That would be cool. I could see last night's guy wanting a date with Echo.
5. IF "Caroline" is her true personality, there's the interesting question of what kinds of sticky fingerprints all the others will leave behind. How much of who we are is our experience?
6. Why does the Dollhouse really exist? There are easier ways to make money.
7. An interesting way to examine the "thingness" that we all too often treat others like. Somehow I doubt the actives are seen exactly like real people to the corporation. They have definitely been turned into objects.
So my overall impression is: GOD! The possibilities! No wonder Joss was excited! After all, I can't stop thinking about it. I'm totally over the weaknesses - moving on to the good stuff: obsessing.
Okay, now I need my morning tea so I can obsessively have new thoughts - hopefully more coherent ones.
BreathesStory | February 14, 08:18 CET
The one thing I disliked that hasn't been mentioned (this is
stretching the boundaries of being very nitpicky mind you) the little things before the commercial breaks that were like *Dollhouse will be back in (60,90) seconds* just go and come back!
edcsLover9 | February 14, 08:24 CET
Can't wait to see the next few episodes, am nervous about the pilot, alas. The premise of this show, and the way Joss has spoken about it, give me hope; I like darkly-grownup Joss (cf. Serenity, 'Objects in Space,' Buffy issue #5, his writing about the strike, etc.). The man's an extraordinary comic writer but at times his verbal cup runneth over once too often, lending kind of a manic tone to proceedings; writing in comics has made him more terse in an interesting way. I'm excited to see him bend his verbal talents to the symbolically-overloaded Dollhouse.
But.
But I'm nervous about this pilot. Alas.
waxbanks | February 14, 08:30 CET
It slowed the show down a tad bit for me. But, I still loved it. I can't wait to see what comes next.
Does this mean I agree with Fox? No. I just see how big business doesn't always *get* what they are putting on air. *sigh*
And, the fact that Eliza was smiling so much? Oh, gads. That was wonderful. As Faith, she didn't really throw out joy towards the world...so, having her in a role where she can be so very very happy (even as an imprint) makes me love her even more as an actress.
ctofine | February 14, 08:31 CET
NOW I'm beyond thrilled: I dreamed about 'Dollhouse' and woke up thinking about the karmic implications. Echo (should I even think of her as Caroline?) was downloaded with a damaged/suicidal personality, it is like Eleanor Penn was hard wired to fail, so falling apart when she saw her 'ghost'/kidnapper was not surprising (Topher made a big mistake). But where did that strength to go beyond her programming come from? It is like Echo redeemed Eleanor's life, fulfilled Eleanor's life's goals. It really has some power over-tones IMO. I think there is a lot going on here.
embers | February 14, 09:00 CET
I just hope FOX doesn't pull any of their old stunts!
techvq | February 14, 09:01 CET
All characters grey with the ability to go either way leaves me confuzzled and annoyed, like me some black hats that I can root for, was hoping Adelle would come close to Madeleine/Operations ("La Femme Nikita") but in my book she never did get that defining moment.
The show seems a bit cobbled together, hope the next episode gives a clearer picture, will be waiting impatiently for the story arc.
Better than many reviews led me to believe, still wont come close to filling the Buffy shaped hole in my tv watching, probably not intended to a very different type of show :)
5 out of 10
jpr | February 14, 09:02 CET
I won't read all 444 posts before me, but read a few and saw some interesting reviews from you guys...
And I will try not to write too much, but I just wanna put on record here that every little bit of expectation was worth it! Joss totally delivered imo!
I loved seen Eliza back! I LOVED seeing Amy back! I loved to see the new faces and I dare say I already have some favorites... and above all things, I loved to the some familiar names on the credits, ending with "written and directed by Joss Whedon".
This is my first Whedon-show premiere, cause I started with Buffy S3 (but while it was airing Season 4), so my first season premiere was S5 (and Angel S2). And I was late for the Firefly party. So... I was even more excited. And it was as good as it gets for me. The long hours waiting for a way to see it (cause I'm in Brazil) were totally paid off.
Uh, I think I got side tracked... forgot what I was going to say...
Well, I'm very intrigued by the whole thing, I can't wait to watch and see where things go. And I don't think the "Personality of the Week" thing will be an issue. I think it'll set the situations between and for the deeper development of Echo (or maybe we could say Caroline...). And can't wait to find out more about Alpha!
And I guess I'm less picky than most of you, but... I don't mind motorcycle chase/dancing thing. It actually reminded me of Dark Angel, which was nice, and you know... as much as we, Whedon fans, are all a bunch of very very very smart (and very pretty) people, I don't see harm in a little of "futile" stuff here and there, as long as it doesn't take over the show and Joss' ideas (and maybe it's just me being naive, but I have complete faith that Joss wouldn't let it happen).
So yeah, I'm not worried. And I look forward to the painful hours waiting for it to be online every Saturday dawn.
maxsummers | February 14, 09:16 CET
I don't think they're all dead. Topher seemed to imply it was unusual that the woman the memories came from was dead, when he told she commited suicide. The fact that she committed suicide also seems to imply the "donors" of the memories die in more or less 'natural' circumstances.
The follow up questions are very interesting. Actually all your questions are very interesting BreathesStory! Nice to see how much Dollhouse gives us to think about.
All characters grey with the ability to go either way leaves me confuzzled and annoyed Well, I love it. But I like it even more when you know all characters will go all ways (yes I know this sentence might be completely meaningless), and I think that's the way Dollhouse is going to be.
the Groosalugg | February 14, 09:18 CET
Oh, and I think the client from last night WAS a repeat client. I believe that was alluded to in the conversation when he placed his order for an active.
Septimus | February 14, 09:26 CET
Sunfire | February 14, 09:45 CET
Except that I got the strong impression that the "mindwipe" process was storing the events of the engagement.
[ edited by snot monster from outer space on 2009-02-14 18:54 ]
snot monster from outer space | February 14, 09:52 CET
[ edited by jpr on 2009-02-14 19:00 ]
jpr | February 14, 09:58 CET
embers | February 14, 10:02 CET
He also seemed to have engaged Echo before. It's a subtle thing but his voice tone really suggested that when he was saying he was surprised they sent her as the negotiator and not a man.
Sunfire | February 14, 10:06 CET
Yes, and I loved the transition from that stirring redemption to the flash! wiped Echo. Eleanor gone. This show is going to create characters for us to care about & then kill them over and over. How Joss can you get?
jcs | February 14, 10:35 CET
Riker | February 14, 10:36 CET
[ edited by ria on 2009-02-14 19:37 ]
ria | February 14, 10:36 CET
Lioness | February 14, 10:44 CET
The intro with the racing and clubbing was fun to watch :)
[ edited by Krusher on 2009-02-14 19:59 ]
Krusher | February 14, 10:58 CET
Except that if you feel this way about the exposition, you have to blame him, because he wrote it.
@theonetruebix | February 14, 11:10 CET
I agree, Dichen is the one to watch. She had the awesome factor in all her little scenes.
maxsummers | February 14, 11:25 CET
@theonetruebix | February 14, 11:30 CET
I thought it was very direct and almost robotic, but I took it as the way they'd programme someone to just finish the job and clean up the mess. Just "make" someone very down to the point. So I liked it.
maxsummers | February 14, 11:34 CET
I'm wondering if, since the imprinting procedure as we/Echo saw it, is so painful, what the repercussions physically/psychologically might be down the road, assuming the series goes several seasons (could what happens in Episode 2 based on what we saw at the very end of Episode 1, be a result of a science that isn't absolute? After all, we don't know that much about it yet).
What do you think about the premise mentioned by someone at another of my hangouts (which I didn't mention last night but actually thought was a daring move, jumping right into why Caroline might be there) that Adelle is Caroline's mother? I thought Adelle was much more headmisstress-y in a low-key way than motherly, but it kind of made me twitch a little.
Tonya J | February 14, 11:43 CET
@theonetruebix | February 14, 11:44 CET
UnpluggedCrazy | February 14, 11:45 CET
I think it was actually one of his strongest pilots to date. Buffy's first episode is a tad weak, of course suffering from Joss not directing yet. Angel had Buffy to build up its atmosphere, but was extremely expositional every time Doyle opened his mouth. Firefly's "Serenity" is still his best, but that was a two hour movie they didn't air, so I should really match this against "Train Job", which I liked okay, but which felt really anticlimactic after being built up for Serenity over the previous month.
Paul's stuff, though a conventional character for this type of show, was feeling very fresh for some reason. Come to think of it, Helo was a pretty standard character that Penikett played with such sincerity that you really cared about him like you hadn't seen this story before. I think I could watch Tahmoh cook spaghetti for an hour.
Lachman definitely had a cool arc through the episode, and though I knew where a lot of it was heading, I was pleasantly surprised with how they brought her back into the episode.
Eliza is a leading lady, not a character actress. I think many of the reviewers wanted someone pulling a vanishing act into these personalities. Admittedly, that would have been fascinating, but I don't think that's Eliza's job, here. Fox and Joss's primary worry is us getting attached to Echo, which means it has to be an "Eliza, if she were..." sort of performance, and I think that she did a phenomenal job.
PuppetDoug | February 14, 11:46 CET
[ edited by Rhodey on 2009-02-14 20:49 ]
Rhodey | February 14, 11:46 CET
UnpluggedCrazy | February 14, 11:47 CET
@theonetruebix | February 14, 11:53 CET
UnpluggedCrazy | February 14, 11:58 CET
@theonetruebix | February 14, 12:03 CET
Loving it!
embers | February 14, 12:04 CET
That said, I really wanted to get away with just typing "genericy" (way back up there) not only because I was tired and because it really summed up my feeling, or lack of feeling about the episode quite well, but also because I didn't want to type out a list of disparaging comments and have it be confused with anything more than a list of disparaging comments.
But really the show didn't hit me much at all--either positively or negatively (Well, okay, I guess negatively, but that was both due to and offset by my faith in the auteur...). I mostly just thought "generic." That's why I typed just that. And then I added the "y" cause, Joss.
And, to be clear, especially in light of the couple of people who questioned my take, I wasn't referring to the concept but rather the execution. But, letting the pilot stand on its own, meaning Whedon and all potential aside, it almost bored me.
Granted the Foxified opening was what it was, but it didn't have to be. It could still have been a Jossian Foxified opening, but it wasn't. Or not that I could see.
We all might have expected that the opening scene would feature one of Echo's implanted personalities, but did she and the action have to be so dull (generic)? Shiny bikes, shiny windblown hair, and shiny legs? With all thanks to Seth and Amy, "Really?" A race? And on empty city streets? "Really?" Sexy dancing? "Really??" That's what one comes up with to lure the non-believers? Were we supposed to become invested in a three minute love story as a means of sympathizing with our girl?
What about an introductory vignette that stands alone but is really fascinating, or surprising, or exciting, and to all viewers, not just those who can't tell the difference between a Whedon and a Bruckheimer or an X-Box? I'm put in mind of the opening of "Raiders of the Lost Ark", a fast, brilliant, establishing scene, otherwise unrelated to the main plot, that stands alone as one of the most fun and memorable openings in all of movie history.
But I suppose shiny works too, Mr. Fox executive. I'm sure he was under a gun of some sort and I could never be sarcastic to Mr. Whedon...
As for Ms. Dushku's performance, if this episode was all I knew, I'd think this could be rough for her. She doesn't strike me as a chameleon. And it's not like she'll have a lot of time to flesh out characters. And her as Echo? Right or wrong, and maybe there's no other way to handle it, I found the doe-eyes and the slightly bewildered sense of peaceful wonder grating--and yes, generic. And please note I love--LOVE--her as Faith.
As for the rest of the episode, nothing about it wowed me. Or screamed Joss. Maybe it whispered. Or stated but while clearing its throat a few times. It did feel a little procedural as others have written. And I hate procedurals, Jock; I hate 'em! Raiders on the brain... For this reason alone I'd find it generic.
And I have questions. If the FBI can't confirm the existence of this organization in the however many years it was noted the guy's been trying, how do the clients know about, much less find it? And personalities, okay. But these guys can implant diseases? Granted stress-induced asthma might have enough to do with brain function and near-sightedness is a nervous system issue as well, so I can accept those if need be. Just as long as we're not asked to believe that diseases that function on a more physiological (other than the nervous system), cellular, or immuno level can be implanted and wiped clean. Also, I think Penn was made nearsighted in part not only as a red herring to surprise via the asthma attack but to justify her wearing glasses. And, speaking of generic--glasses and a tight bun? "Really?" Okay, I'll stop typing that...
The handler, already ambivalent? And still there? No one is worried? Anyone think his personality might get wiped clean at some point as a means of making him forget what he knows? And Echo walks right in on the programming of a new doll? Are we to assume that anything she sees, learns will be wiped out with the next treatment? If not, how will she retain enough information to piece together who she is?
Okay, guess I've been enough of a buzz kill. But I'm looking forward to next week for sure...in case anyone was somehow getting the impression that I wasn't. They're just (yes, critical) observations, and questions.
But it's still Joss.
[ edited by Brett on 2009-02-14 21:40 ]
[ edited by Brett on 2009-02-14 21:42 ]
Brett | February 14, 12:20 CET
I didn't get the impression that this was the intent of that scene. I think (as seems to be the consensus), this was Fox getting it's fast-action/hot-chicks opening scene.
@theonetruebix | February 14, 12:24 CET
So to me it looks hopeful. Makes me wonder about the original pilot though! It has a strange sort of quietness about it though, nothing like other shows like Terminator, I guess that makes it eerie somehow..
Below the surface, you can feel Joss's presence, but he needs to crawl out and get on top. Let the crawling beging the next episodes.
Krusher | February 14, 12:25 CET
Tonya J | February 14, 12:28 CET
However I do think after the first engagement the episode does pick off.
Something like this: Also, I think Penn was made nearsighted in part not only as a red herring to surprise via the asthma attack but to justify her wearing glasses. IMO is exactly the Jossian 'Foxification' that wasn't delivered in the begining of the episode.
It's a bit hard to really know, but I don't think I'm just giving this a chance because of the attachement of the name Whedon. Maybe I would have been even more blown away without it and any of the attached expectations.
[ edited by the Groosalugg on 2009-02-14 21:53 ]
the Groosalugg | February 14, 12:52 CET
That being said, I think this was his most ambitious concept, and should not have been messed with. It's just not as flexible as the others were, because it's such a grand premise. the Fox-y scenes are going to be more forced. The noir feeling described in the original pilot sounded dead-on. Blade Runner! Dark City! Don't explain anything, Joss, I wanna be completely in the dark! This is clearly the inferior artistic achievement, but the show still looks like one I'll love by the middle of the season.
PuppetDoug | February 14, 12:57 CET
Re: Harry Lennix, I have to agree more with The Ninja Report --
Harry Lennix == Chiwetel Ejiofor,
and to add to that,
Topher Brink == a pale copy of Tom Lenk
Reed Diamond == a pale copy of Alan Tudyk
Olivia Williams == a potentially better version of Stephanie Romanov
I'm simultaneously afraid of an intrigued by the potential of all these interesting side characters. On the one hand, side characters are something Joss does better than anyone. He fleshes them out more than most showrunners bother to do. On the other hand, they're in danger of falling into the archetypes he's already set up in the past, especially when the casting produces such look-a-likes.
That said, I ADORED Amy Acker. Her character has more potential than all the rest, to become a deep, multi-faceted person.
chickenbird | February 14, 13:00 CET
--I already see the potential of this show, which is what I didn't get from the Buffy pilot. I discarded Buffy when I saw it for the first time... THE POTENTIAL IS MULTIFACTETED THOUGH. FIRST, THERE'S THE POTENTIAL FOR STORY TELLING BASED UPON THE PREMISE, AND MOST PEOPLE COULD SEE THAT. BUT IT'S THE POTENTIAL FOR GREAT STORY TELLING THAT MATTERS, AND OUR VIEW OF THAT COMES FROM WHAT WE ALREADY KNOW AND BELIEVE ABOUT JOSS AND COMPANY. SO IT WOULDN'T SURPRISE ME THAT PEOPLE WOULD HAVE MORE FAITH (!) NOW, AS THEIR EXPECTATIONS HAVE BEEN ESTABLISHED AND REINFORCED. THIS ALSO EXPLAINS WHY SO MANY CAME TO BUFFY LATE IN THE GAME...EITHER AFTER BEING EXPOSED TO POSITIVE WORD OF MOUTH OR BY STUMBLING ACROSS SOMETHING THEY'D NOT THOUGHT ENOUGH OF TO WATCH FROM THE START (AS I DID) AND FINDING OUT THEY WERE WRONG. MY POINT IS THAT I THINK AT LEAST SOME PEOPLE ARE BASING THEIR ENJOYMENT OF THIS EPISODE ON ITS POTENTIAL, NOT ON IT AS IT STANDS.
--Brett, the contradictions/concerns you just described have to hinge on suspension of disbelief in a piece of entertainment. If we had everything explained to satisfy our discontent, it wouldn't be very good. In real life, how many times have we found out how something happened and just couldn't believe the details? However, we're pretty smart here, thus all the questioning and analyzing, and you brought up some excellent points. AS FAR AS MY QUESTIONS AND SUSPENSION OF DISBELIEF GO, I'M ALL WITH YOU. THE QUESTIONS WEREN'T PROBLEMATIC FOR ME REALLY, JUST QUESTIONS. IT WAS THE GENERIC BITS THAT BOTHERED ME.
AND IF I WAS THAT SMART, I'D HAVE BEEN ABLE TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO USE THE PROPER QUOTE THINGAMAJIG HERE.
Brett | February 14, 13:01 CET
Completely ignoring that the hour flew by. It was dark and interesting and although I didn't love it, I did like it a lot. I'll definitely be back next week because it's Whedon, it's Eliza, it's Tohmoh and it was intriguing.
NuVanessa | February 14, 13:03 CET
embers | February 14, 13:04 CET
I think Dichen and Enver are both going to be great. Sierra is the most kick ass mindwiped puppet of higher powers ever. Amy also looks like she has potential here although I hope they introduce some kind of subtlety with her. In fact, the lack of subtlety generally was the main problem I had, and I'll happily post that blame to Fox execs.
I also felt like Angel was going to walk on any second and go
"What...? Who...?" (turns to Wesley) "Who the hell are these guys?"
Wesley: "We appear to have been taken over by some kind of illegal and highly secretive yoga class."
Angel: "When did this happen? And where's my office? And who the hell are you?"
Echo-a-la-Buffy-bot "Parts of me are hurt. Will you be doing my special treatment in the shower now?"
Least believable part = that dress.
curlymynci | February 14, 13:13 CET
That is, if you were put off by the scene, you were reacting in exactly the right way. You weren't meant to think "ooh, shiny, that's so cool!"
As for questions like "how come the FBI don't know about this"--well...that's just genre. "How come the Feds haven't closed Sunnydale High, which has a student die every week of the year?" If your response is "that wouldn't happen in real life" then you're not cut out for genre shows.
snot monster from outer space | February 14, 13:16 CET
Best line Wesley never got the chance to deliver.
@theonetruebix | February 14, 13:19 CET
I also think Eleanor Penn is not that woman, but a personality Topher constructed drawing on multiple things, including the real memories of childhood trauma he got from one woman. I think Eleanor Penn was uniquely constructed for the engagement.
It's weird that people seemed to think Boyd had screwed up somehow when the negotiation went south. But maybe no one realizes at that point that it was Topher's programming choices and a twist of fate that put a trauma survivor with asthma face to face with her past abuser during a high-stakes negotiation.
Sunfire | February 14, 13:22 CET
I also agree with snot. "Things are not as they appear" and all that. But I kind of wish they had just started with that scene & then jerked us out of it. The beginning scene w/Caroline threw it off for me. I suppose they felt it was clearer this way.
And curlymynci, my husband had no problem suspending disbelief for that dress. :)
jcs | February 14, 13:25 CET
I like the conceit that the "imprints," the composite personalities, require a driving force to keep them coherent. I'd imagine that the more focused and compelling the character, the more important this drive would be.
Perhaps, then, only certain minds could hold these imprints. Passion would require passionate proclivities, brilliance native intelligence, etc. Why else would they have recruited someone like Caroline as the raw material for Echo? Why not an amnesiac or a mental patient?
I really like Saje's thought that Caroline/Echo's character made the combined persona stronger, allowing her to avenge Eleanor Penn. I also enjoyed the look of peace and satisfaction on Echo's face afterward, as though she knew what she had done.
This is why I think it's fine that Eliza Dushku doesn't quite dissolve into each role (although I found her range more impressive than some.) A pure chameleon wouldn't provide the necessary continuity. I think the show works better if we don't quite forget the person underneath.
I also think it's fine that Echo should be a sleepwalker, not a "My Own Worst Enemy" or Angel Hell Dimension mundane personality. Not only does this make the contrast with her temporary imprints more dramatic, but it implies that a brain flexible enough to import these personalities might need to be kept pacified, that Echo isn't a lack of an imprint, but an imprint herself. (All of which has obvious implications for Alpha, if that subplot is going where it seems...)
So I'm happy to keep watching. Joss Whedon has a talent for building worlds, and I trust that he's thought all of this through. This is the rare sci-fi tv show where exposition isn't the enemy. Unlike Lost or Heroes, each season could be better than the last, if Fox gives it a chance.
britalb | February 14, 14:02 CET
Simon | February 14, 14:05 CET
embers | February 14, 14:17 CET
Septimus | February 14, 14:24 CET
"We have to do my treatment quickly, okay?"
sumogrip | February 14, 14:45 CET
Despite being a huge Whedon/Dushku fan I came into Dollhouse with low expections - I didn't like the concept, the trailers didn't interest me and the reviews made me expect the worst.
So what did I think of Dollhouse? It left me smiling, and one of the most enjoyable show premieres I've seen. The lack of action was concerning, but it didn't effect my attention in the show - I was gripped from start to finish. Loving the concept now - I'd carry on watching just to see who Alpha is! Exciting, promising, could be brilliant.
I hate to say I haven't been promoting the show much as I didn't think much of the promotional material, but now I've seen it I'll be telling EVERYONE to watch. I hope everyone else will do the same, as I could watch this every week if it keeps up its potential.
Expected rating - 6/10. Actual rating - 9/10. Cant wait for next week : D
ChromeShark | February 14, 15:13 CET
Riker | February 14, 15:17 CET
I have to say though, in my opinion I think this is (bar Serenity)the best pilot that Joss has done.
ShanshuBugaboo | February 14, 15:37 CET
resa | February 14, 16:01 CET
You're not the only one, resa. I'm hoping that that will change for me. But I found myself wanting to fast-forward through his scenes.
ShanshuBugaboo | February 14, 16:09 CET
Sorry, Simon. Is that like an understood thing here...or on posting boards in general? I only did it to distinguish between my text and that which I was quoting.
Some day I'll figure out how to quote properly...
Brett | February 14, 16:18 CET
like so
or in <blockquote> </blockquote> tags
and you should be good.
@theonetruebix | February 14, 16:24 CET
UnpluggedCrazy | February 14, 16:31 CET
Wow, this must be the most-commented post ever, or what?
Xyron | February 14, 16:47 CET
Sunfire | February 14, 16:52 CET
IceHunter | February 14, 17:14 CET
Oh, in my effort to not spoil anything about "Dollhouse", I wasn't aware that Victor's character is dropped. Too bad, I was hoping for that since it would make the connection clearer of "Alpha" as the first doll.
[ edited by CaptainB on 2009-02-15 02:44 ]
CaptainB | February 14, 17:39 CET
witch_kat | February 14, 17:44 CET
Still, I managed to view it - and it's been said, but I really loved it and can't wait for more. Weekly Joss again will be SO awesome.
One final note, it was great to see a nod to The Bard (Shakespeare for you heathens :P) - Thanks Joss!
Sarcyn | February 14, 18:08 CET
I'm still of mixed minds here (no pun intended). What he says is
It remains unclear to me whether the flaws come from the same people the skills come from or indeed if Topher specifically constructs those as well. That quote doesn't actually come down either way on that point.
When he says "it's not a greatest hits" and "it's a whole person", I'm taking that to mean that the amalgam is a whole (albeit artificially constructed) person consisting of both achivements and faults, but he's not explaining (yet) whether any given scanned achievement brings along a fault from the same scan, or if Topher gets to pick flaws himself.
All of which is the long-winded way of saying: I was certain of my view on this before, but now because of this thread I have to reset myself to uncertain, and just wait and see what the show tells us. Heh.
ETA that either way, Topher's line in the preview -- "This is art, not an oil change." -- made me giddy.
[ edited by The One True b!X on 2009-02-15 03:30 ]
@theonetruebix | February 14, 18:22 CET
sarahi | February 14, 18:33 CET
You actually can support Dollhouse by watching it on Hulu. There's a thread a few above this one explaining how. But this is the gist of it: google Hotspot Shields and download the programme you'll find (it should only take a few minutes) and that programme will trick Hulu into thinking your computer is in America. Then head over to Hulu and watch the show and you will be counted as a viewer (and FOX will receive advertising revenue)
Let Down | February 14, 18:47 CET
/Apple fanboyism
Sarcyn | February 14, 18:52 CET
But yeah, Joss gets to kill a character every week this way. He must be humming with joy.
ManEnoughToAdmitIt | February 14, 18:54 CET
I loved all the parts , all the seconds . I´m a fairy but I have to say that I loved that Dress from the party . Eliza was smoking hot on that.
Mr Penikett has such fishylips . Kinda cute on the tely . I really liked the fight scene . Not overdone , contextualized and he did it beautifully .
I loved the lines . I´m really in love with this episode . Gonna watch it again .
wonderbruno | February 14, 19:14 CET
I freely confess that I am blinded by all things Joss; but, this pilot absolutely didn't grab me. If this were just some random TV show, I probably wouldn't watch it again (I don't watch much TV.) Since it is Joss, and since I know he has a plan and I know that his original pilot got crapped all over by FOX, I will certainly stick with it.
I thought this was supposed to be more of an ensemble show? I have very little sense of the other characters and more than enough sense of what Echo looks like in a very short dress. (I realize that is all FOX; but, all the fluff kills so much time that we could have been getting to know the characters and their world.) I hope that FOX gets the heck out of the way and lets Joss tell his story.
ivy | February 14, 19:21 CET
Slipping About | February 14, 19:33 CET
CaptainB | February 14, 19:46 CET
existentialhere | February 14, 19:49 CET
@theonetruebix | February 14, 19:54 CET
Slipping About | February 14, 19:57 CET
UnpluggedCrazy | February 14, 20:48 CET
Let Down | February 14, 20:50 CET
DisChunk | February 14, 21:47 CET
Since we've only had the one episode so far, we don't know yet.
@theonetruebix | February 14, 21:49 CET
DisChunk | February 14, 22:11 CET
The strength of most of the cast was what ultimately got me through the pilot. Also, I agree with whomever else has expressed some dislike (or, at least general indifference) for the show's theme.
[ edited by J Linc on 2009-02-15 08:25 ]
J Linc | February 14, 23:22 CET
We had a fairly large group over last night, there was champagne and we made a toast to Joss's success ^_^ There was major cheering when "Created by" came on the screen, and the GRR ARGH. I was on so much of a high about just being able to watch a new Joss show that I didn't really take in much of what was going on, so we watched it again on Hulu today. Things made much more sense then! I'm so hooked on this show.
I didn't go into it expecting or wanting it to be like Buffy or Firefly, so I wasn't disappointed at all really. I wasn't all that thrilled with the theme song, or the boxing thing, but otherwise I was quite pleased.
I know a lot of people didn't care for the Fox touch of the opening scene, but it played into my base need that combined nicely with the champagne and the general revelry that was going on (and I quite liked the line about ropes...). And the rest of it made me go: holy crap, I love Joss!
fuffybaby18 | February 14, 23:40 CET
After watching I was actually quite surprised that it got such a mixed response. On a purely superficial level it was great story that moved at a good pace. Before watching, one of my concerns was the extra length of the show, which on Fringe I've often found slows the whole thing down. As though they've written a 45 minute show and just stuck in some unnecessary extra scenes and long takes to make the time up. This wasn't the case here.
But above (or below) that superficial level, I loved the ideas. Specifically the idea that a person could have an emotional resolution to an event which caused them to kill themselves, after their physical death. As soon as it was revealed that the personas were taken from real people (which was information I didn't know before watching) I started thinking about who these people were and if any of them were dead. Then I thought of the Friends gag with Ross talking to Elle McPherson about computers developing to the stage that they could replicate the human brain so we could be downloaded and live for ever as a machine. That Echo's Ellie character was able to make peace with the events which caused her to kill herself I found incredibly profound.
Bring on the next episode.
Andrew | February 15, 00:49 CET
I have to disagree, and I know this is only opinion vs opinion but, in my estimation the Buffy pilot was the weakest. This is looking back on the four. Angel's pilot was very strong. Firefly's pilot as Joss intended (i.e. the double-episode Serenity) was the strongest. Which leaves Buffy and Dollhouse.
When I was younger, the Buffy pilot did enough to just hook me into the show, but if I was watching it now - I may well dismiss it. Of course, Buffy as a whole I love! :D But I think most fans would agree the show really picked up the quality in season 2.
Now Dollhouse. To me, this pilot did an excellent because it covered all the areas a pilot should, whilst still being interesting as a standalone story. It introduced all of the characters and we have a decent idea of their personalities (obviously Echo is sort of the exception as her's keeps changing). It set up a lot of the other important parts of the show, such as the fact that Echo starts getting flashes of life in the House whilst she is Active. Also, the fact that Boyd is of the 'mission' not 'engagement' mentality which I can see being important.
So, in conclusion, I think this pilot was very strong and set up the rest of the season very well. I can't wait for more and my only frustration is that I don't have a Dollhouse Seasons 1-20 boxset so I can just watch them all :P.
Sarcyn | February 15, 01:00 CET
Except that if you feel this way about the exposition, you have to blame him, because he wrote it.
The One True b!X | February 14, 20:10 CET
Haven't read beyond this comment yet, but I'll answer it because it's short.
How many times was Joss forced to do re-writes? That was my point.
All the interviews he did, as much as he tried to put a positive spin on the changes that were demanded by Fox, made it really clear to me that this was the kind of thing that we wouldn't have had to endure, if we'd gotten the "pure Joss, un-tampered with" product.
So no, I don't blame Joss for this.
Shey | February 15, 02:14 CET
the Groosalugg | February 15, 02:35 CET
[ edited by the Groosalugg on 2009-02-15 11:38 ]
the Groosalugg | February 15, 02:36 CET
And it isn't just me. In addition to some along the same lines comments on this thread, there are some much stronger comments on the same subject, on the "A Valentines Day Gift from Fox" thread. There's sexy, and there's sexist/exploitative, and the Summer/Eliza promos crossed that line in a big way, IMO. So now I'm waiting to see where it goes from here. But I'm wondering if this wasn't some of what Joss has mentioned being uncomfortable with, in several interviews.
One more comment before getting off this subject .....
snot monster from outer space | February 14, 16:08 CET
Not at all, for me. I loved the beginning of the BSG pilot. The "hot alien sex" was an integral part of the plot, that was made clear from the start. And it was a sex scene between a man and a woman, not just a woman dancing in a dress that would embarrass Britney Spears, shortly after a "hot chicks" promo that was so cringe-worthy that a number of others have commented on it, as well.
So for my re-watch impressions (fast forwarding through the sexist promos helped). I still feel that the opening "sexy action" sequence seemed awkwardly cobbled into the rest of the show, which is so not Joss. I would so love to see his original pilot.
Otherwise, I liked it a whole lot more, the second time around. What impressed me most the first time is still the most impressive to me, the acting.
Eliza was simply amazing. I love the way they're handling the "vacant, in-between-imprints" parts. That could so easily come across as cheesy, but I totally bought it. Now I'm impatient to see if the other actors who play actives, will play it as well as Eliza.
Amy Acker was amazing. So little to do and such a strong impression. The casting so far seems to be vintage Joss, that is, pretty much perfect.
Hoping for more Tahmon, soon. He has an amazing presence and I didn't once think of Helo, although I'd just watched BSG a couple of hours before (weird satellite channel time-zone issues, on Hawaii time, I get BSG an hour before T:TSCC starts).
The seeds of an intricate, multi-layered plot are definitely there. I just hope we get to see it unfold.
Shey | February 15, 03:12 CET
1. References. When Topher says "The New Moon has made her virgin again" he refers to the legend of Persephone, who upon leaving the underworld bathes with her mother in order to become virgin again (a word which, for the ancient Greeks, meant to be in control one's body).
Then he references Hamlet, in the scene where Hamlet talks about Denmark as a prison. So from those two allusions, we get some crazy "girl coming out of an underworld into a prison" system going on. Also: Rambo reference later in the show? Gold.
2. Language. All the dialogue relates to memory and forgetting, but I especially loved three of Echo's lines: "She's not asleep," "Forget it," and "We were coming out." The first was said when Echo entered Sierra's room, the second when Echo had a flashback to 'her' rape/her initial torture at the Dollhouse, and the third when Sierra barges into the kidnappers' lair. All three can be read as Echo talking about herself and her own condition at the time, which is just a fantastic (River-like way) to have a character repressing memories talk about those memories.
3. 'Cutting' Shots. These are shots that use cuts between two characters to cut up their bodies for fabulous effect. One great instance of this is the 'Sierra gets needles into her scene'. In the former, the cuts between Echo and Sierra make us only see her body in pieces, showing us an objectified image of a woman (legs, breasts), and then the view Joss wants us to use to reevaluate this position of women (Sierra's face, looking back at us in pain, begging for help). I'm really excited to see other ways this show will subvert traditional views of women in film.
Overall, I'd say this is a great first episode that is doing everything I wish Joss had time to do with Inara in Firefly.
(sorry for the longish first post, I'm new. hi!)
ebb_of_laughter | February 15, 03:22 CET
Adding to the references, we have a strong undercurrent of fairy tales, in line with the general idea of exploring childhood. We have the "carriage-pumpkin"-monologue in the beginning (and I still wonder, why people dismiss the beginning as completely foxified standard-mainstream-TV-fare... I can't imagine another writer capping that scene off with such a weird but hilarious dialog...), the FBI mentioning the Dollhouse is a fairy tale, and we have Jane Espenson writing episode 11, titled "Briar Rose".
I also liked the dialog between Divina and Gabriel, talking about TV, and how "that reality crap" is helping melting brains. Oh, that reality crap really is. Very nice layers of meta-text (TV/Media is imprinting us), but at the same time, fiction equals sanity. Connect it back to the Dollhouse, you get Joss/Topher saving us. Or is he?
I think the scene I liked most (after repeated viewings, not initially) was the balcony scene with Ellie and Gabriel. This is just neat, how he ties up the whole premise of the show to the case-of-the-week, letting him talk on both levels, mildly disobeying Adelle and thus proving her right, since Echo really did become confused. It's also nice to see the pilot taking off where "Serenity" stopped: Hidden transcripts. Like there was a signal, a message that triggered the weakening of the Alliance, there is a message, a topic, a discussion that triggers the weakening of the grip the Dollhouse has on Echo.
I totally agree about the cutting shots and how he fragmented the whole experience. The episode constantly thinks about the camera which is an aspect I always saw Joss being very ambivalent about. On the one hand, he likes a silent camera that doesn't demand much attention (and the visual brilliance of Firefly is, imo, proving how good this can work), on the other hand, he is a nerd, even as a director, and loves to do stuff like "The Body", where the camera basically becomes a character in the plot. "Ghost" seemed to play nicely on both levels, keeping it low when it should (motorcycle race, dancing, Sierra's big entrance, the docks), but amping it up where there is a point to be made about viewing, looking and observing. I am still amazed about the very first second of the new Joss Whedon show being the weirdest unexplained someone-is-watching-you trope I have ever seen someone pull off. He comes right out of the gate saying: This show is about watching, observing, closed spaces with cameras, and B-cameras. We never get a sense of who is actually watching Caroline and Adelle (except us, of course). We start with the impression of someone watching Caroline on TV. And we end up with someone watching Caroline on a TV. Scary, very.
wiesengrund | February 15, 03:56 CET
And wisengrund, that was pure gold and made me thing from a different perspective, on a couple of levels. Also love the technical comments on how Joss uses the camera and 'space'. This is stuff I've noticed and never been able to articulate nearly as well as you. Do I detect some professional experience? ;)
Shey | February 15, 04:38 CET
There was an interview with Joss in my favorite German pop-magazine (Spex) back when Serenity was released, and in that interview he talked about his approach to camera-work and acting, and that interview basically sold me to this man I had never heard of before. :) I'll try to find it, so that I can translate some quotes about the camera-work.
wiesengrund | February 15, 04:57 CET
See, I disagree. Yes there was the cold open, and then the overly-cheesy/actiony-crap motorcycle race and dancing but, unfortunately, this was necessary as the show is airing on F*X. Can you imagine a Brothers & Sisters (fantastic family drama series) style episode ever airing on F*X? It just wouldn't happen. But that's not something that Joss et al have any real control over, now that they've signed the show to F*X...
And even in the opening section, we had some good moments, especially the
and the following introduction to the House and it's staffers. In fact, I'd say the whole thing picked up after that. So you had a non-great seven minutes or so and then what I consider to be a pretty awesome pilot.
In my own personal rankings, this is up there with Serenity (not living in the US means I never saw The Train Job as the Firefly pilot). And Serenity was a 2h/1h20m episode.
As for the exposition, although there's no denying it was there I thought generally it was fairly well handled. At no point did I think to myself "Bored now." And that goes for the whole episode.
Think that's all I wanted to say, but I'll probably think of more, especially as I watch it more (done one complete viewing and a partial so far).
Oh, the theme. Although I'm not a big fan of the 'non-song' I like the tinkering at the end and generally think it fits the mood of the show fairly well. Sort of childlike and vaguely psychedelic. As for the score in general: A+
Sarcyn | February 15, 06:22 CET
Exactly!
Sarcyn | February 15, 07:43 CET
I just wanted to comment on this post of Shay's:
"And it isn't just me. In addition to some along the same lines comments on this thread, there are some much stronger comments on the same subject, on the "A Valentines Day Gift from Fox" thread. There's sexy, and there's sexist/exploitative, and the Summer/Eliza promos crossed that line in a big way, IMO."
I didn't watch this promo (thank god b/c i think it REALLY would have pissed me off) but I'll have to say I'm really intrigued about where all of this seeming totally sexest/exploitation of Eliza stuff if going. B/c on Buffy the whole point of the show (at least initially) was about putting this cute little vulnerable blond girl in an ally with some threatening baddies and then watching her completely defy the expectations for what a cute, blond, valley girl can be.
I wonder (hope, expect) that something similar is going to be going on in Dollhouse.
That we'll start with Eliza as some type of a cross between Sidney Bristow and the Buffybot. Someone who can dance around in a not!dress and look hot while kicking ass but has no control over her own actions. No power of her own. But then over time will completely reinvent what it means to be an ass kicking female action star in a way that allows her to regain power. B/c really it's all about power- who has it and how you get it.
That's what I think (hope) will separate this show from all the other "post-buffy" shows that show women as tough but never really break out of sexy/sexist charlie's angels type stereotypes (I'm definitely thinking Alias here).
In other words, I almost like that it starts from such a low point b/c it gives you somewhere to go. It's gonna be a long journey- which is what makes all of Joss's shows so great. : )
Now I can't believe I have to wait another week for the next episode. This watching a Joss thing on actual TV is going to be really hard!
maybebaby78 | February 15, 08:11 CET
If Joss Whedon gives me a bladder infection, so help me God, he'll hear about it!
Riker | February 15, 08:28 CET
witch_kat | February 15, 09:05 CET
Pamelajaye | February 15, 09:40 CET
Pointy | February 15, 09:59 CET
Tymen | February 15, 10:07 CET
Tonya J | February 15, 12:55 CET
@theonetruebix | February 15, 12:59 CET
shambleau | February 15, 13:12 CET
The thing that I really got me was the set up and that moment after Ms Penn is wiped. To have that moment of the anxiety and all the badness is just gone now - I wanted to be a doll - even though logically that's insane - the fact that I had the moment, gripped me.
In terms of a rogue doll - there is soooo much scope. A botched up "wiping" could leave a doll with an intake of personalities & memories. Their own capabilities could be incorporated with a those of a assissin or a frikkin ice skater or anything. I'm definitly sticking around for more.
Also
Dear Joss
If you could include a Battlestar reference in every episode I'd be ever so greateful ;)
I promise to eat all my vegatables and will donate to equality now every time you do it.
Yvonne. x
missyu | February 15, 13:38 CET
witch_kat | February 15, 13:46 CET
IrrationaliTV | February 15, 15:08 CET
Oh, this is "Never Let Me Go"-inspired, and rightly and wonderfully so.
That's also why I can make sense of that shot of Boyd running towards Echo through the Dollhouse. They do have phones in that house. There is no point in doing that scene that way, no point in building up the tension, except to show that he is willing to go that distance, to bridge that gap that Adelle is unwilling to bridge.
And on fourth viewing: The worst dramaturgic cop-out was that roadblock. I mean, Joss has to know some better ways to end a phone conversation. But it's so minor I really don't bother. :)
And I love the 50 minutes. The pacing was wonderful and it had such a great, un-rushed breathing space.
wiesengrund | February 15, 15:52 CET
@theonetruebix | February 15, 15:58 CET
wiesengrund | February 15, 16:51 CET
Not great, but good. The first ten or so minutes really didn't grab me. I've always thought that Joss is brilliant at that pre-credits teaser that gives a hint of the plot while also being humorous and working by itself. The strange scene with Caroline (though probably very important) felt out of place this early on and wasn't as good as the gang having a bar fight, Angel staking vamps but being tempted by blood or the little blond girl turning into a vampire. The first assignment was pretty dull but perhaps if I knew nothing about the show it might have been okay as the twists were there (i.e. scary motorcycle chase becomes dates becomes girl leaving mysteriously in black van). It became more interesting from then but still didn’t really grab me until Echo walked in on Sierra getting mind-wiped. That pretty much hooked me and the rest of the episode I found quite enjoyable.
I was semi-unspoilt for the first episode but I knew who the characters from reading about it when people were getting cast. I was expecting to really love Adelle but Olivia was really given the hard job in this episode and didn’t get a chance to display much individuality. The character who actually grabbed me more than any of the others (and who was actually the character I thought I’d be least interested in) was Boyd, Echo’s handler. When he was quizzing Ms Penn in the van and when he barged in on Adelle I was riveted. I’m sure the other characters will grow on me soon enough but he’s the one after finishing the episode that I liked the most. (I also have an irrational love for Sierra and Enver’s character but as we only saw a few moments of those I have to assume I am either being pre-judgey, predictive or very shallow ;)) I thought the performance evaluation scene/boxing with Paul worked even if it was perhaps a little heavy handed (plus shirtless Tahmoh and cool marshal arts moves!), I had expected something much worse from various reviews.
In brief other stuff I liked:
1. The bathroom scene with Enver and Tahmoh. There was precious little humour in this episode but this scene was probably the one that felt the most Jossian out of the lot.
2. The Edward James Olmos reference!
3. When the girl was rescued from the fridge was anyone else getting huge River flashbacks? Brunette girl in foetal position saved from white box?
4. Arc stuff. For something that is supposedly stand alone there was a lot of stuff there.
5. Already some interesting stuff about imprinted memories (the asthma etc.) and I found the whole Ms Penn storyline compelling and well acted by Eliza.
6. A nice amount of Shakespeare.
Other stuff I didn’t like:
1. Lack of humour. There was some of it there but not enough to distract from some of the dull expositiony scenes or make some of the characters more likeable.
My rating: B. Iffy start and not enough humour but a much better finish. Potential is the word. No way as bad as some reviews would have it seem.
Now I want more!
[ edited by Leaf on 2009-02-16 02:06 ]
Leaf | February 15, 16:56 CET
Um, no. To help delay his arrival back home. I'm not saying it's what happened. I was just spitballing explanations for anyone who might need one.
@theonetruebix | February 15, 17:07 CET
Here's what's been percolating in my brainpan aside from "LOVED IT":
1. I was surprised, after all the reviews, how convincing I found Eliza to be as the hostage negotiator. Her "Yo!" persona was totally gone. (Thankfully, too, the bun and glasses were humorously explained away. Otherwise that beaten-to-death trope would have niggled.) I also found Eliza convincing in her other personas, including her blank slate Echo. One key point was when she had to signal to us that she was still Ms. Penn. She nailed it.
2. I loved seeing Amy Acker. It's thrilling to contemplate what her deal is and what her relationship with Topher is. Seems...complicated.
3. Topher: the actor was great. I didn't find him at all Xanderian apart from some superficial similarities. I don't know where people are getting that impression. Where Xander was all about heart, Topher appears to be about everything else - a careless, breezy, self-satisfied approach to other peoples' souls! Shudder. I found him terrifying, funny, and compelling.
4. Loved the Handler. His relationship with Echo and with Dollhouse was humanizing and sad.
5. Adelle is indeed "cold as an alp." Knowing Joss's stories, she'll become more complexly not-cold as time passes. I'm not sure yet what to make of her blond assistant.
6. Two things I absolutely loved because they made me uncomfortable and sad: One, when Echo had her breakdown over a memory that wasn't even hers. It belonged to a composite "Ms. Penn." That killed me. The idea of these composite, created personalities is freakish and troubling. She was devastated and it wasn't real. Or was it? What is real here? Two, the other thing that slayed me was that the two clients both remarked on the fact that she wasn't "real" - their focusing on that made a good proxy for me for feeling the weirdness of Echo's situation. Oh, and three (can't resist) how sad was it when she was eagerly returning to her "treatments" while still in character?
7. Finally, this isn't necessarily good or bad, just different: This is the first time in a Whedon show where I don't feel straight off that cozy "found" or "created" family vibe. There's no Scooby gang, no Fang Gang, no crew and passengers banding around Mal as they make their collective way through space. Sure, there were always interesting fissures in these groups, but groups - bands of "brothers" - they were. Nothing like that yet in "Dollhouse." I suspect that will shift as some of the Dolls form into groups, or Echo develops a tighter relationship with her handler or with Amy's doc character...or...we shall see.
[ edited by phlebotinin on 2009-02-16 03:37 ]
phlebotinin | February 15, 18:30 CET
Did 'Ghost' remind anyone else of 'Conviction' (the Angel season 5 premiere)?
Why is Topher so well read?
And, also, Amy Acker is really beautiful in Dollhouse. Her look never really worked for me in Angel but she's pretty much wow now. I guess that's just my scar fetish coming through
Let Down | February 16, 00:51 CET
Why is Topher so well read?
Why wouldn't Topher be well read ? He's clearly hella smart.
(also, wasn't it mostly Shakespeare ? So kinda on the obvious end of the 'well-read' spectrum)
5. Adelle is indeed "cold as an alp."
Y'know, i'm not sure about this. Olivia Williams does something brilliant when Boyd is reasoning with her about "what she likes to tell herself", there's genuine human warmth behind her eyes, just for a fraction of a second, and then her face changes subtly and suddenly she's the ice queen again and it's all business.
So I guess i'm saying there're already 'cracks' in her facade IMO. Reed Diamond's security guy is still just a cut and dried baddie though (even then though, he threw Adelle a couple of "looks" that might suggest some human feelings for her).
Saje | February 16, 01:35 CET
Yeah, Shakespeare, plus the 'new moon' reference to the Persephone story
Actually, I think his references to literature fit in quite nicely with the possible theme of Topher as artist
Reed Diamond's security guy is still just a cut and dried baddie though (even then though, he threw Adelle a couple of "looks" that might suggest some human feelings for her).
When Boyd said Adelle likes to think she's doing good work Reed Diamond's character shot Adelle a very quick look that showed he knew Boyd had hit the mark and that he thought Adelle might have some (small) reaction. I suspect those two know each other pretty well and have some history.
At the moment, his security character is the one I think I'll have the most trouble getting invested in but I'll need a few more episodes to see
Let Down | February 16, 02:05 CET
Leaf | February 16, 06:57 CET
I'm glad someone noticed that this shot seemed to be very specifically there.
@theonetruebix | February 16, 10:00 CET
The "Grr Argh" just made me smile. *sigh* I can't wait to see what will happen next.
edenrivers | February 16, 12:09 CET
Really.
People have heard me say this: We as a species are hardwired to want stories about us. The best writers do just that -- tell us who we are. And in the past, Whedon has done just that.
And, 'swelp me, I'm just not getting that out of Dollhouse. I found it cold and distant. Even as we start to see who Echo was before she became a Doll, she really only came across to me as just that -- a doll. Not Eliza Dushku's fault -- she did a good job with what she was given -- which really does make it a writer's issue.
Nevertheless, I find myself really on the fence about this show. The concept is intriguing, I will give it that. But I wanted a story about me...a story about who we are as humans. And it just didn't get there.
Which, if that is the point -- who ARE we actually, if our identities can be erased with the push of a button -- I guess that's what Whedon is getting at.
But for me, it just did not connect as I hoped it would.
On a meta-level...No, I really was not set to hate this show. I was set for Whedon to prove himself, as I think all good writers should do. Prove yourself to me and challenge me and DARE me each and every time you have something new. Because that tells me that you are pushing your creative envelope.
So far, I'm taking a wait-and-see attitude.
BetNoir | February 16, 13:15 CET
I did not like it. If it were not Joss, I would probably not have made it through the episode.
I have been surprised that the issue of this being about coerced body and mind prostitution is not bothering people. i am surprised that no one here seems concerned that the moral issues here are not ambiguous. I saw nothing that gave what they were doing any positive moral spin. It may as well be set in any number of real places where people are prostituted against their wills. The people in charge are evil and the people who pay for it are supporting evil.
I had gotten the impression that we were supposed to think these people were volunteers and then have doubt come into it about whether they were truly volunteers. It was made clear in the first moments that Echo does not want to do this. She is being coerced.
Joss asked in an interview if prostitution was necessarily wrong? If that question is being raised in this series, it would be is coerced prostitution necessarily wrong? i can't believe that that is Joss's intent. If it is supposed to be exploring identity, he is going the long way around the exploitivness trail to get there.
Anyway, I will watch it because it is Joss, even though I saw no Joss in it.
newcj | February 16, 13:59 CET
Who's not bothered? Joss has said all along that people would find this situation very upsetting. We're clearly meant to be extremely bothered by all of this. Do you think that that pleading, distraught look on Dichner's face as she's getting wiped was meant to make us think "oh, good, as long as this is all being handled professionally then there's no ethical problems here?
snot monster from outer space | February 16, 14:06 CET
newcj | February 16, 14:36 CET
They saved Davina's life.
@theonetruebix | February 16, 14:40 CET
I'm not used to plot depending on people who are supposed to be smart being stupid in Whedon shows. That bothered me a lot too.
[ edited by newcj on 2009-02-16 23:49 ]
newcj | February 16, 14:48 CET
Is it only the independent studios, and WB the only large studio, in showbiz that recycle their sets?
Little Green Kid | February 16, 15:14 CET
Of course, bad plotting (if it is that) has nothing to do with the ethical questions you raise. That is, saving the child was a "moral good" that resulted from the actions of the "Actives" whether or not you believe that those actions were plausibly motivated.
As to whether this was bad plotting: they made it clear that they thought that the guy who hired them was probably going to die. It would have been a plausible decision to decide to cut your losses at that point. His death wouldn't go unnoticed by the authorities, it would be bad news for the Actives to still be out in the field if the cops started nosing about. If he's dead he can't badmouth them (and, after all, how much "word of mouth" can there be about an operation which is so completely underground. He's not going to write a bad review on Yelp, after all). All things considered, I don't see that as a one-sided "smart people doing stupid things to keep the plot moving." (And I agree, by the way, that that is something I hate.
Meanwhile, what was the added value of having an active do the job rather than a trained professional who actually does it for a living? I have not seen them do anything that could not be done by people who actually signed up for the real job of their own free will.
I agree that that wasn't adequately explained. I'm thinking that this might just be one of those things they choose to leave unexplained (like "how come those Firefly people are all obviously not very rich, but can afford to pay for interstellar travel?" or "Why don't the authorities close down Sunnydale High when it has such an appalling death rate?"). Genre shows ALWAYS require some key suspension of disbelief. Either you can get on board with that, or genre fiction ain't for you.
That said, we can fanwank some not-bad explanations. He could have been worried that a legit organization would have notified the authorities. Also, he's obviously used the Dollhouse's services before--perhaps he has a very high opinion of their abilities--and would rather go with an organization he trusts than a legit one he doesn't know about. I mean, after all, once you've decided that you don't want the police involved, what are the legitimate freelance hostage negotiator companies that you would turn to?
snot monster from outer space | February 16, 15:24 CET
It wasn't the best thing to do. For that insight there's Boyd, whose decision-making is very different from Adelle's.
I think it's worth taking into consideration what Agent
MulderBallard said about why crazy-rich people would bother with Actives. The client here went to the Dollhouse because he knew them and trusted their discretion, he couldn't go through law enforcement channels (and that's where experienced hostage negotiators are), and he wanted a large degree of control over this. He wanted the best, and he wanted it all handled like clockwork. It's a reasonable choice given his position and his character as a rich control freak. Did you see his house? See his parenting style? He seems like a decent guy, but one who really values control. Which makes it darkly funny when Active who shows up is the last person he'd have asked for.And people thought it wasn't funny.
[ edited by Sunfire on 2009-02-17 01:04 ]
Sunfire | February 16, 16:02 CET
I agree with this, but to me this was actually much more of a "how does that work, again" than the mere fact of him going to the Dollhouse for his negotiator. I mean, why wouldn't the Dollhouse simply give him the negotiator of his dreams? They're not in it, after all, to save little girls, they're in it to satisfy rich people's fantasies/desires. If he comes to them and says "I want a Morgan Freeman type" (which seems to be what he had in mind), why don't they give him a Morgan Freeman type--even if they disagree with him that that is the most effective negotiator?
snot monster from outer space | February 16, 16:11 CET
ETA: Or, in a case such as this, the client might think they know what "the best" is supposed to be, but the Dollhouse actually knows what "the best" for the situation is, and since the client asked for "the best", that's what the client was given, regardless of the client's preconceptions on that count.
[ edited by The One True b!X on 2009-02-17 01:20 ]
@theonetruebix | February 16, 16:18 CET
Or what bix said. Hey so what is this confessional thing? That line puzzled me.
Sunfire | February 16, 16:20 CET
I'm wondering if there's a price beyond money for the services of the Dollhouse. Like, perhaps a client needs to give up something about themselves -- either just informationally (which amounts to having something to keep clients in check) or maybe so far as to have some part of the client's personalities scanned for use by the Dollhouse.
@theonetruebix | February 16, 16:22 CET
Sunfire | February 16, 16:27 CET
Well, yes and no. Obviously he wants it to go like clockwork. But he is pretty bluntly skeptical that Echo is the right person for the job--in fact, IIRC, he comes close to calling up the Dollhouse and sending her back. He does have a specific idea of the kind of negotiator that he thinks would be best for the job.
Now, if I'm in the Dollhouse business, how much do I care about the outcome, how much do I care about giving the client what he says he wants? You might say "well, as long as he gets the child, he'll be happy and that's a potential repeat customer." Well, perhaps that's right--on the other hand, with the scene as it played out, he got shot, the girl got kidnapped and that much more traumatized...I'm not sure how thrilled he'll be about the Dollhouse's judgment.
If, on the other hand, they'd given him a Morgan Freeman type, there's no reason to think that that means destroying the possibility of a successful outcome (after all, what screws up the case as it is is something that no negotiator could have foreseen, and which Echo is actually singularly badly placed to prevent). And if the case does go wrong, then at least their client will say "well, they gave me exactly what I asked for."
snot monster from outer space | February 16, 16:38 CET
There's a ROM/RW difference in there which might be crucial. The painful process is the memory wipe (preparing the mind to be imprinted), it might be that merely copying chunks of the client's personality/memories isn't so bad.
Mind you, I'd find it pretty hard to imagine billionaire clients being willing to let the Dollhouse people roam around in their memories unless they were really, really, really life-and-death desperate.
snot monster from outer space | February 16, 16:40 CET
I'm just spitballing theories of the Confessional. And it would help (although, so would simply "share a secret with us") give more explanation to why clients don't seem to out the existence of the Dollhouse to the authorities.
@theonetruebix | February 16, 16:45 CET
Sunfire | February 16, 16:55 CET
If they are not known through word of mouth, how are they known? Word of mouth as in people who know each other recommending services, not annoucing something over the internet.
As far as Adelle's actions. Admittedly the amateurish way they handled things when the plan went wrong, indicates that this might be an unusual job for them. if so, making that clearer might have been a good idea.
That said, usually businesses have a general default way of doing things. This company's only plan seemed to be, we mess up, we grab our person and get out. To hell with the client. The stupidity comes in with that being bad business and her not seeing it. The bad ethics and morals are inherent in that apparently being their default.
They don't have a hospital set up for the actives that they could have quietly whisked the client to while they did damage control? They don't have a clean-up plan for if things go wrong? What kind operation is this? Are they evil bunglers? If they are just a high priced whorehouse that got out of their league, it would have been nice to have a sense of that. Otherwise, it just seems like a pretty normal unthoughtout trashy show, and that does not match with what we all know of Joss Whedon.
newcj | February 16, 17:05 CET
Seems precisely like the sort of question an entire series, rather than merely just the series pilot, might answer.
@theonetruebix | February 16, 17:09 CET
Seems precisely like the sort of question an entire series, rather than merely just the series pilot, might answer.
:-D True, if it is something interesting and not just a group of pimps with high tech toys who are unable to manage anything else. That would just be a drag.
newcj | February 16, 17:14 CET
I must be forgetting a scene. We know exactly what he asked for?
snot monster from outer space | February 16, 17:15 CET
Do we know they didn't do this? I don't remember that being made clear. They certainly seemed up to date on his condition.
snot monster from outer space | February 16, 17:16 CET
@theonetruebix | February 16, 17:21 CET
I imagine they make the initial approach to many of their clients. I'm sure they would prefer that their clients are extremely discreet about who they talk to about the Dollhouse.
All in all, though, that is simply going to be one of the areas that won't hold up to too much scrutiny. There's a reason that a place like this can't exist in the real world (not, at least, operating out of a basement in Los Angeles). Again, that's the nature of genre fiction. If you're going to say "but there's no such thing as vampires" or "you can't exceed the speed of light" then, again, it just ain't your genre.
snot monster from outer space | February 16, 17:22 CET
Maybe--but if a billionaire is in a public hospital with gunshot wounds isn't that just "news" not "becoming news"? I'd have though "this is becoming news" could mean "one way or another this is going to generate publicity." I mean, if he dies, then it's news. Even if he lives, he's suddenly appearing all covered in bandages etc.
snot monster from outer space | February 16, 17:25 CET
Sunfire | February 16, 17:30 CET
It's kinda like jumping straight to "Eternity" in S1 of Angel.
wiesengrund | February 17, 01:31 CET
If, on the other hand, they'd given him a Morgan Freeman type, there's no reason to think that that means destroying the possibility of a successful outcome (after all, what screws up the case as it is is something that no negotiator could have foreseen, and which Echo is actually singularly badly placed to prevent).
Err, what ? If Echo wasn't there (or Ellie Penn rather) then the boat would have pulled away and the little girl would've been repeatedly raped and then killed. A "Morgan Freeman type" would NOT have been kidnapped by the older guy and would NOT then know that he never intended to give the girl back, no-matter what they paid - the boat then pulls away, the child (and money) never to be seen again. Her asthma was incapacitating but assuming she and the father were both unarmed (as seems reasonable) she wouldn't have been able to stop them anyway (not to mention the possibility that Ellie Penn may never have even held a gun before).
So Echo/Ellie was not only the best person for the job, she was actually the only negotiator (or one of a select - in the worst way - few) that would know what was going to happen and could do anything to prevent it.
As to the rest of the doubts etc. i'd only say that this is episode 1 folks. Who knows, maybe the guy that's always delivered in the past will end up explaining some of these holes in the coming weeks.
Saje | February 17, 02:07 CET
snot monster from outer space | February 17, 02:22 CET
I think I can decide what my genre is for myself, thank you.
The suspension of disbelief is necessary in any fiction. That does not mean the author can do anything he/she wants and insist that the audience has to accept it. Something being termed "genre" also does not give the work a free pass to do anything at all with it being the audience's responsibility to make it make sense. It is still the author's responsibility to suck the audience into that world and create a sense of reality in as strange a world as he/she dares to create. Obviously Joss has succeeded for the majority of people on Whedonesque and that is great. He has not succeeded for me at all yet, and I'm afraid most people who are not Whedon fans will not wait around for him to succeed with them.
newcj | February 17, 05:36 CET
That being said, snot monster, you're totally wrong and saje is totally right about the uniquely qualified nature of Echo/Ellie for this job. It may not have turned out ideally (what with the client getting shot and everything), but this was actually the best-to-be-hoped-for outcome of the kidnapping, and Ellie was the ONLY person who had the insight necessary to make it happen.
[ edited by Septimus on 2009-02-17 16:09 ]
Septimus | February 17, 07:06 CET
Pamelajaye | February 17, 08:00 CET
If I had a problem with suspension of disbelief in general, I don't think I would be on this board. I don't have a problem suspending disbelief for the premise. I just had a problem with the things I stated up thread getting in the way of wanting to spend time in this world. Snot Monster indicated that that meant that the genre was not right for me. I am just saying that having a premise that is not realistic does not mean that you can do anything you want. You still need to create the illusion of reasonableness so the audience is encouraged to suspend their disbelief. That was made difficult for me because this group of supposed high level operators seemed amateurish and in some cases stupid. The fact that the actives are shown to be coerced also pulled me out of it, making me have little desire to spend a hour in a world with no redeeming qualities I could see.
newcj | February 17, 09:13 CET
But the boat does leave with the girl on board. All Echo/Ellie's warning achieves is to get the client shot. Had she not seen the rapist guy, they'd still have handed over the money and had the bad guys drive off in the boat with the money and the girl. At that point I would think they'd have moved to pretty much the same Plan B that they went to in this case. There's clearly no point in continuing ransom negotiations with people who won't act in good faith.
Even Echo/Ellie's use of her private information to get the bad guys to neutralize the rapist guy turns out not to have mattered. It actually would have been less traumatic for the girl if the commandos had just gone in and shot everyone while she was still safely in the fridge.
Admittedly, I've only watched the episode once so I could be forgetting something crucial here. Is there something about what Echo/Ellie remembers that allows them to figure out where the bad guys have holed up? I remember some discussion about the range of the motorboat (it was "riding high" so presumed not to have much fuel)...but I can't now recall exactly how they pinpointed the hideout. Although--seeing as the rapist guy wasn't the "boss" of the kidnappers, I'm not sure how he would have determined which hideout they'd go to.
snot monster from outer space | February 17, 09:45 CET
Rachelkachel | February 17, 09:54 CET
Arguably, at least, Ellie's knowledge about the baddest bad guy gave them some insight as to the real motivation and the futility of continuing to deal with them. And it caused the kidnappers to turn on each other which made the rescue go the way it did.
I think one thing we should learn from this is that the Dollhouse does NOT necessarily provide the absolute best person conceivable for the job. They provide the best person that they can. In this case, for instance, the super-duper negotiator was also a traumatized former victim.
Septimus | February 17, 09:56 CET
Actually, newcj, it was a propos of two specific questions that you raised that I said "that's the nature of genre." The "amateurish" one wasn't one of them and nor was the "no redeeming qualities" one. Please, go back and look at what I wrote. I was responding A) to the complaint that there was no "added value of having an active do the job rather than a trained professional" and B) to the question you raised about "If they are not known through word of mouth, how are they known?"
I agree entirely that genre fiction doesn't give you a license to do anything at all. What I said was that all genre fiction entails some fundamental suspensions of disbelief. I think that the mere existence of an institution like the Dollhouse is not a real-world possibility (for all sorts of reasons). If you are going to object to the premise of the show on these specific kinds of "how would that work in the real world?" ways, then the show simply isn't ever going to be able to satisfy you.
Obviously, though, that doesn't apply to objections like "why would he hire such an obviously amateurish crew to do this." My disagreement with you there was that I didn't think that the job they did was so self-evidently "amateurish." As for the moral bleakness of the setting, we agree about that. You find that it makes the show unappealing to you, and I don't. That would just be a case of de gustibus non est disputandem (sp??).
snot monster from outer space | February 17, 10:02 CET
Ah, yes, I remember now--thanks Septimus. So it remains unclear to me why Echo/Ellie was the best person for this job. She was the best person for Joss's purposes (she gave the audience vital inside knowledge that ramped up the suspense), but from the girl's father's p.o.v. the only thing she added was getting him shot--no doubt an interesting detour on life's highway, but probably not one he considered overall to be a bonus.
snot monster from outer space | February 17, 10:07 CET
You have to care about both. You give a customer what he thinks he needs and the "engagement" doesn't have the outcome desired, he isn't going to return and might do what he can to end the Dollhouse. Give a customer what is neccessary for the job and he won't care that the doll wasn't what he was expecting. As I'm sure is the case with the first episode.
As for Echo/Ellie's private information, it did matter. If she didn't have those memories, then they would have wiped her and let the chips fall where they may with the client. Because she had those memories and her handler recognized that, he knew they could find the girl and was able to press that with the higher ups. Without that knowledge, who knows if they would have figured out the rest and found the girl ever.
ETA: people got to it first.
[ edited by NYPinTA on 2009-02-17 19:18 ]
NYPinTA | February 17, 10:17 CET
I do think that if it had not been for Ellie's past, Boyd and Ellie would not have been as determined to get her back - and maybe would not have been as convincing in getting the Dollhouse not to follow procedure. It seems like the modus operandi wouldhave been to take the more cautious route and continue trying to negotiate...
Septimus | February 17, 10:25 CET
They get hired to create a personality to complete a particular task and do that to the best of their ability, with the bonus of the person who does the job won't be around later to cause problems for the client. How it turns out is as up in the air as anything in life.
NYPinTA | February 17, 10:41 CET
Awesome.
@theonetruebix | February 17, 10:43 CET
Well, I agree that you have to care about both. My question was "how much" each factor would be weighed. Oddly enough, you seem to go on to say that you should really only care about the outcome and not care at all about how the client thinks that outcome would best be reached ("give a customer what is necessary, and he won't care about the rest").
snot monster from outer space | February 17, 10:53 CET
And in the first engagement that we see Echo, as the perfect date, the clients expectations had to be met and the outcome is less a priority. (Him getting a crush.)
NYPinTA | February 17, 10:59 CET
She's a little scary.
Sunfire | February 17, 11:06 CET
Well, maybe. I mean, if what Joss set out to write was a story in which the Active's implanted memories are essential to saving the client, then you'd have to say that he failed. It would, after all, have been a piece of cake to make something in all of this absolutely depend upon Ellie's memories (have the rapist guy be the gang leader, have her remember his fondness for a particular kind of hideout and have that be the clue that leads them to find the gang--whatever).
Me, I don't think that that was the story he was trying to tell. The story we got was one in which Ellie's memories allowed us to understand A) that the Actives get implanted with surprisingly 'whole' personalities, B) that the little girl was facing a specific (rather than a generalized) threat, C) that the threat facing the girl (abduction/rape) was eerily similar to the fate Echo is undergoing D) that, in a sick and morally-disturbing twist, Echo-as-brainwashing-victim could get to act out the cathartic/redemptive act of standing up to Ellie's oppressor that Ellie herself had never been able to do.
As to what the girl's father would have asked the Dollhouse team to do once the kidnappers had absconded with his daughter AND his money: I, myself, would find a "well, let's just renew negotiations" approach utterly unbelievable. I think the "well, we tried negotiations, let's go for the commandos" approach would be the obvious next step. Now, clearly we're into the realm of speculation about possible fictional worlds, here, so nothing is provable, but what is clearly true is that there is nothing in this case that depended upon Ellie's memories. The sequence of events could have played out pretty much as they did with or without Ellie.
Oh, and as regards the specific rejoinder that "it was the--otherwise unknowable--threat to the little girl that made DeWitt stay in the case": that may or may not be true, but it was Echo getting the client shot that made her want to drop the case in the first place. And although Ellie's memories give us a very concrete sense of the threat the little girl faces, I don't think that anybody faced with a situation in which kidnappers have absconded with the ransom money thinks that the kidnappee is sitting pretty.
snot monster from outer space | February 17, 11:06 CET
I thought the upshot of that discussion was "we don't know how specific he was."
snot monster from outer space | February 17, 11:07 CET
Hey: I'm sure this has been commented on before, but aren't we getting deep into the territory of "I Only Have Eyes For You" here?
snot monster from outer space | February 17, 11:11 CET
NotaViking | February 17, 11:15 CET
FWIW, there is no "Ellie". Eleanor Penn was a construct. We don't know who the abuse victim was, or what she was named.
@theonetruebix | February 17, 11:17 CET
I actually did not have a problem with them being known by word of mouth. I had assumed that that would be the case, you in fact were the one who assumed they could not do business through word of mouth. See below:
If he's dead he can't badmouth them (and, after all, how much "word of mouth" can there be about an operation which is so completely underground.
So you created the question, not me.
I do not understand why there being no added value in the use of an active would be something that one would have to accept as part of the genre, however. Things usually exist for a reason.Vampires in the world mean vampire slayers make sense. A group of developing worlds means that low cost transport ships make sense. I am hopeful that this Dollhouse will somehow make sense.
newcj | February 17, 11:20 CET
Is that right, b!x? I honestly don't remember. I know that the "Ellie" that we saw was an amalgamation of personalities/memories. But, what does Topher say about the woman who killed herself? Does he call her "Ellie?" I thought he did, but may very well be mistaken.
All in all, I didn't think there was as much emphasis on the amalgamation/art of combining personalites in this episode as on the personalities-have-inherent-flaws issue, so they may not have been emphasizing the details.
Newcj, obviously one person's reasonable question is another person's moment of required suspension of disbelief. In a world with vampires, vampire slayers make sense, but a world with vampires and demons that (aside form the existence of vampires) seems to look a lot like our world and in which most people are ignorant of their very existence kind of doesn't. that being said, I do hope that it all comes together more coherently than we have seen it do so far.
[ edited by Septimus on 2009-02-17 20:26 ]
Septimus | February 17, 11:24 CET
Not really. One slayer to fight a world full of vampires? That makes the kind of sense that's...not. Armed squads of highly trained humans (look how well Riley can do, how well Principal Wood can do, how well Giles and even Xander can do) would make far more "sense." You're just willing to swallow that particular enabling fiction (as am I)--presumably because we just don't have to care about the havoc the vampires are wreaking unopposed in Bucharest, Paris, Lagos, Sydney, New York, Birmingham, Beijing (etc. etc. etc.) because it doesn't get into the storyworld of the series.
As for the "low cost transport ships"--no, none of that makes the slightest lick of sense. Transporting a ship from one star to another takes an ENORMOUS amount of energy. And yet energy is clearly not "cheap" in the Firefly universe (people ride around on horses, employ slave-like laborers to quarry "mud" etc.).
Again--for the purposes of enjoying the story we need to just bleep over what we know to be fixed truths about physics and economics.
Now, you say you're happy to do that in Dollhouse's case, so my comments about "if you're not willing to do this then this isn't the genre for you" clearly don't apply to you, do they? But surely you'd agree that they do apply to anyone who isn't willing to suspend disbelief in that way?
snot monster from outer space | February 17, 11:31 CET
Yeah, that was my memory too--but obviously I could have just applied the "composite character" name to the real woman that Topher left nameless.
snot monster from outer space | February 17, 11:35 CET
Sunfire | February 17, 11:43 CET
*****
I thought the upshot of that discussion was "we don't know how specific he was."
But we know this: when Echo showed up he wasn't surprised because she wasn't what he ordered, he was surprised because she wasn't what he was expecting. If he had specifically requested a fatherly type negotiator he would have said that. He didn't. So we know based on what he states is his only objective, that it go witout a hitch, and his reaction to mean he only asked for a doll to do what he needed without being specific enough to ask for a particular sex or age.
NYPinTA | February 17, 11:48 CET
hayes62 | February 17, 11:52 CET
Sunfire | February 17, 12:00 CET
Septimus | February 17, 12:03 CET
But does he give a name to the one specific one who was raped by the hostage taker and who subsequently killed herself? I assume there was only one with that story?
I think Eleanor Penn/Ellie was the best person for the job because on top of being implanted with all the necessary expert training (possibly from multiple sources) she had the single minded motivation to succeed in the 'engagement' no matter what the cost.
Topher didn't know that the personality he dropped into Echo had been raped by one of the client's daughter's kidnappers. Yes, she had, in general, motivation to make sure that little girls get sprung from hostage situations, but "motivation to complete the job," would, one thinks, be a characteristic given to any possible kind of Active.
As for providing a fatherly type do any of the actives look EJO-like? They all seem to be very pretty young things.
Yeah, I wondered about that. Leaving aside the question of whether he was "surprised" or "disappointed" that Echo rather than EJO showed up at the door (which seems to me to require a lot of reading between the lines), I wonder what improvement he hoped to get if he did call the Dollhouse and say "send me another Active." Are there any older Actives? Not that he, necessarily, would know that there weren't.
ETA: also, I wonder if Topher can just "drop" a name into the Active? I mean, your name goes pretty far down into your personality, doesn't it? It's tied up pretty tight with many of your most powerful memories. Does Topher have the ability to just "write over" the name memories in the personalities he's implanting with a made-up name? Wouldn't it be easier to draw on the name of the "primary" source for the implants?
I'm sure this will be settled in upcoming episodes. Someone will come in wanting to hire an Active called "Ermintrude" or something.
[ edited by snot monster from outer space on 2009-02-17 21:24 ]
snot monster from outer space | February 17, 12:17 CET
Sunfire | February 17, 12:22 CET
Boyd: "Bunch of different people."
Topher: "Yeah. And one of them was abused by the guy she ran into."
Boyd: "I know."
Topher: "I looked her up. She killed herself."
FWIW, we don't know whether or not Topher knew one of the persona's component people had been abused (although even if he did he obviously wouldn't have known it was by one of Davina's kidnappers). All we know is he didn't know that person had killed herself until he looked it up.
[ edited by The One True b!X on 2009-02-17 21:36 ]
@theonetruebix | February 17, 12:36 CET
Even Echo/Ellie's use of her private information to get the bad guys to neutralize the rapist guy turns out not to have mattered. It actually would have been less traumatic for the girl if the commandos had just gone in and shot everyone while she was still safely in the fridge.
Maybe, as it turns out. Then again, without her insight into the older guy's MO, they wouldn't even know she was probably in a fridge (even Morgan Freeman doesn't come with that knowledge built in ;) so even the "commando" approach would've been pretty hit and miss. And by the time "SWAT" arrived the bad guys had had a gun fight with one dead, maybe it goes down differently without that. It's certainly true that we don't know another negotiator wouldn't have been just as successful and just as able to make the deductions that Miss Penn makes but then she made the deductions right in front of us, for me that's worth more as evidence than the possibility that someone else might have.
Fair points though, it's not cut and dried and we're not given an incontrovertible fact to tie it all up in a watertight logical bundle and make it definitive that without Ellie Penn it definitely would've gone pear shaped. Again though, as with previous discussions we've had along these lines, we're given the overall impression that that's the case IMO (as i've said before, in fiction - especially Whedonian fiction IMO - it's not about putting it beyond nit-picking or beyond a shadow of a doubt, it's about the balance of evidence and whether it carries the viewer with it - for me it did).
Saje | February 17, 13:02 CET
Well again, though, as in that other argument, if it really was important to Joss that we understand that Ellie/Echo's imprinting was crucial to the outcome of the episode, they why not write it that way? It would have been absurdly easy, after all as I've shown--it only takes a change in dialogue: hell, they could do it in post.
As for the fridge: you think if they'd just sent the commandos in to kill the guys they'd have poked around the house a bit and said "hey, we can't find her: there is this large boxlike thing with the door roped shut lying on the floor in the kitchen, but we decided it wasn't worth looking in there"? The only purpose the fridge-thing served was to prove to the less-evil kidnappers that Ellie/Echo knew what she was talking about when she accused the other kidnapper of being a perv.
This isn't "nit picking" or wanting things to be proven "beyond a shadow of a doubt." What we see is Ellie/Echo getting a monster-attack of asthma and telling the client "Don't let them leave," thereby getting him shot to no purpose whatsoever--because the kidnappers do get away with both the money and the girl. The one neat thing she does manage to do as a result of her special knowledge is to get the less-evil kidnappers to turn on the ultra-evil kidnapper. Now, again, if Joss wanted us to go away thinking "aha, special implanted memory saved the day!!" why write the scene that follows, where the commandos come in and render that neat bit of negotiating pointless? Again--I felt the irony of that moment was very deliberate and it's right there on the screen, not some vague hypothetical alternative.
And, in this case (unlike the other) I actually think the story is better for this ambiguity. It would have just been absurdly deus ex machina for the successful outcome of the mission to depend on the bizarre fluke that Ellie/Echo has memories that happened to come from someone who had been a victim of one of the villains-of-the-week. That would be cheesy improbability, in my view. I think the think that's cool about what Joss did is to tease us with that cheesy plot line, and then negate it. The memories don't actually help solve the case--the only thing they do do is allow Echo to bring "closure" to a ghost. It's a niftily disturbing moment, really, where the audience gets to think "yay, the once victimized girl is standing up and fighting back against the monster that oppressed her" and then does a series of double-triple-quadruple takes ("no wait--the only thing that makes this possible is that this girl is a victim of evil brainwashers; no wait again--the girl getting 'closure' is dead anyway, what good does it do her?; no wait again--not even Echo gets to enjoy this vicarious 'closure' because she's about to be wiped..." etc.).
In other words, I think that clinging to the idea that "Ellie's special knowledge allowed her to save Davina" is trying to force the show into a less morally problematic space than the one Joss is exploring. I think that's the attempt to seek a "watertight logical bundle"--what I'm looking for is (interesting) moral ambiguity.
snot monster from outer space | February 17, 13:23 CET
And yeah, it's immediately countered by the mind-wiping hey kids Echo's this guy's dream date and won't remember it stuff. Whedony.
Sunfire | February 17, 13:40 CET
What happened on the dock is the crazy random happenstance that noone could have predicted. Bad luck, sure, but it has nothing to do with whether Ellie was "perfect" for the job. (Also, that "bad luck"/"cheese improbability" reminds me of Fringe. I don't like it there. But I think it's okay here.)
In other words, I think that clinging to the idea that "Ellie's special knowledge allowed her to save Davina" is trying to force the show into a less morally problematic space than the one Joss is exploring. I think that's the attempt to seek a "watertight logical bundle"--what I'm looking for is (interesting) moral ambiguity.
And "Amen!" to that.
wiesengrund | February 17, 13:42 CET
Which is all I meant to convey. Topher didn't know that one of the kidnappers was the guy who raped part of his Miss Penn personality but that rape was *how* he gave her character the motivation to complete whatever the job turned out to be. Topher sounds rather like a writer creating a backstory here, which is maybe the point.
hayes62 | February 17, 13:43 CET
Yes, we do. And to some degree that is uplifting. On the other hand it's also kinda hollowed out by the knowledge that the girl didn't actually face her demons and triumph--she committed suicide. And Echo isn't sadder/wiser, she's back to square one--and so on. This, to me, is what's fascinating about the terrain that the Dollhouse storyspace opens up. In many ways, of course, it's a meditation on the nature of genre fiction (you keep telling the stories, but they never get resolved--it's one of the points about 'haunting,' of course, that's alluded to in the pilot's title: genre storyspace is a haunted space--all the stories are there, all waiting to be embodied by your characters, never getting finally put to bed).
Anyway, it's all the ways in which Joss is working to undermine our conventional story-payoffs that I find so intriguing here.
snot monster from outer space | February 17, 13:53 CET
Sunfire | February 17, 13:56 CET
The purpose is simple. To point out that manufactured people are about as reliable as real people. The father didn't go to the Dollhouse because they are the only ones that could produce a negotiator. They are the ones that could produce a negotiator that wouldn't exsist after it was done. It gives the clients the (false, really) sense that their deeds don't exsist if the other person culpable in those deeds can't recall the action anymore.
NYPinTA | February 17, 13:58 CET
hacksaway | February 17, 14:04 CET
Sunfire | February 17, 14:05 CET
Oh, it serves a purpose on the level of "why did Joss include it"--you're misreading me if you think that my point is to criticize the episode. I loved it. I think almost all the choices Joss made for this pilot were the right ones--including the creation of asthmatic, nearsighted, possibly-suicidal Ellie. I meant solely "within the world of the episode, this didn't do anything to make the recovery of Davina any more likely."
The father didn't go to the Dollhouse because they are the only ones that could produce a negotiator. They are the ones that could produce a negotiator that wouldn't exsist after it was done. It gives the clients the (false, really) sense that their deeds don't exsist if the other person culpable in those deeds can't recall the action anymore.
The "wouldn't exist after it was done" thing is entirely unknowable as yet. I mean, not that Ellie will carry on existing as a character (although we don't yet know if Active characters can be recreated to pick up from where they left off), but that this is the client's motive. It's possible you've seen more than the first episode, and if so, don't give me any spoilers, but from what we currently know, there's no way of knowing if the client's motivation is primarily (or even in part) the Dollhouse's discretion.
I took it from the scene in which Topher "wipes" Echo after the first engagement of the episode that he was "storing" her memories of the engagement in that disc/hard-drive thingy that he picks up (hot hot!) from out of the imprint-relaxy-chair thingy. If the Dollhouse stores the Actives' memories from each engagement, then clients who think they're buying "erasure" are barking up the wrong tree.
In this particular case, of course, the guy's doing nothing illegal (other than hiring the Dollhouse)--so it's hard to see why he would care what his negotiator does or doesn't remember of the case.
snot monster from outer space | February 17, 14:10 CET
Did anybody else get a strong Warren-vibe off Topher? I was very surprised to see Topher getting compared to Xander and to Andrew in various review threads. He struck me as far closer to the Warren end of the nerd spectrum, and even seemed to have some of his mannerisms.
snot monster from outer space | February 17, 14:13 CET
NYPinTA | February 17, 14:15 CET
No, it isn't. (ETA: I know this because it got discussed to death in political circles when the Blagojevich thing first broke. Those on the right were very keen on the prospect of some member of the Obama circle or Obama himself being guilty of 'misprision of felony' (as it is technically known). Turns out, though, that you have to have actively worked to conceal the crime from the federal authorities to get charged (more like being an accomplice after the fact)--simple non-reportage is neither here nor there).
And even if it were, can you imagine the DA who'd bring the charge? "Yeah, sure you were raped and we're all sorry about that, but as soon as you decided not to bring charges, you turned from victim to villain. Book 'er, Dano!"
[ edited by snot monster from outer space on 2009-02-17 23:22 ]
snot monster from outer space | February 17, 14:17 CET
The purpose is simple. To point out that manufactured people are about as reliable as real people.
Or that sometimes, a flaw is just a flaw. Or that sometimes, Topher is too clever for everyone's own good. Or to point out explicitly (and visually) that there's a concrete link between mind and body (surely one of the issues at the heart of the show).
In other words, I think that clinging to the idea that "Ellie's special knowledge allowed her to save Davina" is trying to force the show into a less morally problematic space than the one Joss is exploring. I think that's the attempt to seek a "watertight logical bundle"--what I'm looking for is (interesting) moral ambiguity.
Yeah, I don't hate the idea that it's deliberately ambiguous either, that also works. Maybe when I rewatch it that's more how i'll feel (it's just not now). How about though, you make an effort to avoid words that imbue me with thoughts or intent that you can't possibly know I have snot monster, ta ;).
(i.e. i'm not forcing the show anywhere or clinging to anything, anymore than you are, this is just how I see it. It's not like I was sitting on the fence because the writing was so muddled and then to make myself happy - or conversely to make things less happy/clear-cut - I consciously decided to adopt the "Ellie was the right person at the right time" mindset, anymore than i'm assuming you did the opposite)
As for the fridge: you think if they'd just sent the commandos in to kill the guys they'd have poked around the house a bit and said "hey, we can't find her: there is this large boxlike thing with the door roped shut lying on the floor in the kitchen, but we decided it wasn't worth looking in there"?
I brought up the fridge thing to make the point that going in blind (as they appeared to) would've endangered the girl i.e. if they didn't know she was in the fridge then she could've been anywhere, including places where she might get shot by one side or the other. Course, maybe they didn't know she was in the fridge, maybe Echo didn't tell anyone and Sierra was adopting a semi-scorched Earth approach, just "cleaning" the situation in the way best for the dollhouse. Or maybe they had e.g. thermal imaging that we weren't shown *shrugs*.
Saje | February 17, 14:17 CET
Let's face it, Joss keeps revisiting the character of the geek with at least as much regularity as he visits the strong-female-character. And, I think it's pretty clear why: the geek is Joss and he is working through what that means. (Did anyone listen to the Fresh Air interview where he said that when he was taking women's studies courses he found it much easier to grasp things like misogyny and objectification than the female students because it was all right there in his head? I'm not saying he's a misogynist, but he knows about those tendencies in even the most feminist and enlightened man.) This all goes back to my latest hangup: the Topher-is-a-figure-for-Joss-the-guy-who-writes-and-directs-these-fantasy-(female)-characters thesis.
Septimus | February 17, 14:33 CET
Yeah--I think there's a lot of that going on. The Dollhouse IS a genre-fiction story-generator. (That, again, is why I think the criticism of the bike-dance-minidress sequence as being cheesy and Fox-y is so off the mark. It's precisely the point: what would jerks with billions of dollars do if given access to something like the Dollhouse? They'd act out braindead fantasy sequences like that. It's as if people are somehow upset at the program suggesting that billionaires can be jerks: "Why doesn't he pay them to provide him with someone who can discuss Shakespeare with him while teaching him calligraphy?").
snot monster from outer space | February 17, 14:52 CET
Septimus | February 17, 14:56 CET
Sunfire | February 17, 14:58 CET
But then "not evil people that make bad decisions and so do evil things" isn't exactly a brand new idea in Whedonia.
Saje | February 17, 15:03 CET
He's creative ,more an artist than a computer geek.he builds people from different scraps,he also has a sense of humor.He's handsome, and EVIL!
Handsome and evil writer?...well,that really sounds like someone familiar...
Ningjing | February 18, 06:22 CET
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