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February 15 2009

(SPOILER) Eliza Talks About Dollhouse. Spoiler! If you haven't seen the premiere. Otherwise you're good to go.

There is nothing spoilerish in that. It's deliberately unspoilerish.
Well, I didn't watch it because I don't have speakers on this comp, so I tagged it just in case. Sorry!
Well, she very much did not explain anything. Though if you've not seen the first episode, yes the host spoils the last scene. But since no one seems to get the last scene, there's really nothing to spoil by revealing it. I thought the point of the scene was pretty straightforward. Sure, there are specifics I do not know, but those are just details, I understand the broad strokes, the details will be revealed in time.
I understand the broad strokes, the details will be revealed in time.

It's kind of driving me batty, the numbers of people who I've seen spazzing out over not understanding the final scene. It's like people don't understand that part of storytelling (it's kind of what makes it a telling) is that it comes in bits and pieces, not all at once.

[ edited by The One True b!X on 2009-02-15 22:55 ]
Don't suppose anyone here sent me an email about posting at Whedonesque? I managed to deleted by mistake without opening it so if you could send it again that would be lovely.

And it would also help if the content was checked/vetted/listened to etc before it gets linked to here at Whedonesque.
Anyone else think the host of this thing was just about the worst ever? Eliza looked great though, wherever they were together.

[ edited by Wyndam-Pryce on 2009-02-16 00:06 ]
He was definitely annoying. And his scoops weren't very scoopy at all.
Let us all hope that his career in front of the camera is fleeting. I wish him all success anywhere that does not require him to perform.
And thank You b!x, I thought I was the only one. You've brought tears of happiness to my eyes.

Wait, no, that's my cat allergies.
Yeah, b!x, it's like everyone's forgotten what a cliffhanger is.
Yeah it kind of is amazing how many people were like "wth was that last scene".
I've also seen a few people commenting on how it makes no sense that someone with morals like Boyd would work at the Dollhouse. I just wonder if they realize that this sort of thing will probably be explained...

Looking forward to some Boyd backstory on Friday, though.

[ edited by Jobo on 2009-02-15 23:46 ]
Do people really not get the ending though? I don't want to sound like an arse but it seemed rather straightforward;

Rouge Active Alpha, kills Caroline's folks and then gathers evidence to string Detective FistGloves along with... I think that's all that really needs to be drawn from it at this early point in time.
Eh, I don't think it was Caroline's parents, personally.
The identity of who those dead people are was not specified, so that's pure speculation. Common speculation, but speculation nonetheless.
All in good time I guess.
It does seem likely that it's Alpha, but it's not 100% clear. And, it's not clear that it's Caroline's family, though that's likely too.

Also, if it is Alpha who is pulling Ballard's strings, then how is that related to the FBI higher-ups who keep him on the case.
Intriguing bookended mysteries: One at the beginning...

"I don't deserve this, I was just tryin' to make a difference. Tryin' to take my place in the world, you know, like she always said, and now..."

So it's pretty much killing me to find out exactly who "she" is. And then the ending mystery: Obsessed Naked Dude (OND), surrounded by blood, bodies, and clippings, watching Caroline's high school memories on DVD.

SO much more than I expected, given the tepid overall critical response. This will be epic.
It's my nominee for Best Creepy Naked Guy since Profit. Hommage Greenwalt?
We know who "she" is from the video of Caroline at the end. She uses the phrase again, but this time uses a name instead of "she". Well, that doesn't tell us who the woman in question is, but we do get a name.
"I'd like to take my place in the world, like Mrs. Dundee taught us." I assume a teacher or something similar, though it isn't spelled out.
And actually the way Caroline says "she" to DeWitt makes me think that whatever situation led to Caroline being there in some way involved Dundee -- as in, Caroline could just say "she" because DeWitt knew who Caroline was referring to already.
"I'd like to take my place in the world, like Mrs. Dundee taught us." I assume a teacher or something similar, though it isn't spelled out.

Somehow I missed that, even after two viewings. Thanks, B!x and Rachelkachel.
Can I just interject something here since this is a TV Guide video and so I don't have to start another topic? We were supposed to see our questions answered by Joss on the 13th and it didn't happen. So I asked Matt M. in a different Dollhouse-related topic there when they would be up. He answered:

TV Guide Staff matt mitovich: Sat, Feb 14, 2009 at 4:21 pm PST

Me: Matt, would you let us know when the other Q&A videos with Joss will be up?

Early next week. There was a lot to sift through. Here's one relevant sound bite: I told Joss that Flashpoint gets 10 mil viewers and FNL is good for 4. What were his expectations for Dollhouse? He predicted with a laugh, "hundreds of dozens of viewers.


Thanks - as you were.
And actually the way Caroline says "she" to DeWitt makes me think that whatever situation led to Caroline being there in some way involved Dundee -- as in, Caroline could just say "she" because DeWitt knew who Caroline was referring to already.

That's what I thought, too. Also, I got the impression that DeWitt was somehow a rival of Caroline's mentor, and pleased to be proven "right" by Caroline's situation.
Oh, that's interesting.
This kind of specification may not be important, but the video appears to be college memories, not high school, as a sorority is mentioned. Dundee (I didn't catch it either, also after 2 viewings, I hang my head in shame) is very likely a Professor.

And it's probably been mentioned, but oh the insipid irony of Caroline getting her wish to do everything, but she'll never know it. Well, she might just, in which case she'll probably be disappointed with the way it turned out.

Also, didn't mention this in the episode thread cause it was already so frickin' long, but on the subject of caring about Echo as a character: I don't. I care about Caroline. Which is due partly to the opening scene, which makes up for not really thinking the scene is necessary. That scene made me aware of who this person is/was. Who i should feel sorry for, who I should be rooting for. We're (er, I'm) rooting for Caroline to break through the visage of Echo and escape her prison and hopefully in the end take down the Dollhouse. Hmm, 5 year plan for the show, 5 year agreements for the actives... I wonder how long Echo has been there by the second scene of "Ghost." Not that I expect Echo to still be a slave by the end of the 5th season anyway. Anyway, when I look at blank Echo, I see Caroline who's not there, if that makes sense. I see the lack of Caroline. Basically, Joss killed his first character between the first and second scene of the series. The hope is that she will bring herself back to life.

Also,
You might want to invisiblize that second-to-last paragraph, about Lubov, bobw1o. There's a decent chance some people here don't know that, and since the show hasn't given it away yet (except accidentally many moons ago), it might be best to hide it.
I was thinking that same thing, about spoilery-ness.

And, I'm not sure I buy your chronology (about it happening in the future, as opposed to having already happened). I don't think the naming convention is actually as rigid as you suggest.
Victor is not yet an active, which I initially assumed he was when watching the show. Then I realized the casual viewer does not realize Enver is ultimately an active. I like the idea that he will soon be an active, but is not yet. And it makes sense considering the theory Ballard is working on involving Enver's character.


I was also watching it thinking Lubov was an Active. It'll be interesting to see the process of becoming an Active first hand, as opposed to just flashbacks of Echo.
Regarding caring about Caroline: Will you still care about her if she turns out to have been a bad person?
Again, spoiler-y, and again, I think there's an assumption about the chronology going on there that may not be warranted.
Yeah, I agree with Septimus about the naming convention. For one, that means they've got at least 15 actives, if we assume Echo is the very most senior and Sierra's the newest (well, the latter we can pretty safely assume). And that seems like a lot, it didn't look like there were that many in the pilot. But, maybe they were out on engagements, I guess. I dunno.
And who knows how many "Echos" there have been... unless the actives are never let go, they could be reusing the names.
I never suggested the naming convention was that rigid. I questioned it. Someone stated it as fact in the Episode discussion thread and I found it to be an interesting thought. It also fits with what little spoilers I heard so long ago regarding
I think it's fine to think of it either way at this point, and I think both approaches to the telling of the story could be really cool. My interest in this is that I had not thought about the possibility I mentioned above and I think it would be cool to see how it would play out that way.

To those who are caught up in BSG:


bobw1o,

I don't think you closed your invisible text above.

[ edited by Anonymous1 on 2009-02-16 02:07 ]
And I would believe there are easily 15 or more actives in the first episode, and judging by the number of vans scene moving in the pick-up/drop-off scenes, it's safe to say there are a few on assignment at any given time.

EDIT: There's at least 12 unique actives visible during Topher and Harry's conversation after Echo's wipe, and at least 12 unique actives when those two are on the phone together, the first not counting Sierra, the second not counting Echo. So with at least 13 actives and a safe assumption of more not visible and a couple on assignment, 15-20 minimum is a safe bet.

[ edited by bobw1o on 2009-02-16 02:02 ]
Whoo-hoo! Viewers of Dollhouse exceeded Joss' expectations of "hundreds of dozens of viewers". Which I think means Joss expected only the 7730 members of whedonesque.com to show up.
nope, never mind, I get it, yeah I had already fixed it.

Also, hooray for more than hundreds of dozens!

[ edited by bobw1o on 2009-02-16 02:13 ]
Isn't that sweet? He knows he can at least count on us.
I was going to give this show a pass until it earns it's sophomore season. But I gave in and watched it anyway. (I couldn't help myself. So yea!)

After investing energy in so many Fox shows that get cancelled so quickly, I was feeling like Charlie Brown trusting Lucy to hold onto that football this time - not pull away at the last minute - despite her history of trickery and malevolence. Better to wait for the DVD, I told myself. Wait and binge.

For example, not so long ago I watched the unaired episodes 5 and 6 of Drive on Myspace and they were really good. Too good, actually. Amy Acker's character turn really was something of a shock.

I'm sorry to be so jaded and suspicious. Joss trusts the network, so I should be able to let bygones be. But I still wonder if Rupurt Murdoch has an evil plan apart from simple profit motive which is to seduce and distract the most talented creatives from living out their full potential. That is what Wolfram and Hart would do, right?

But I'll be watching. And hoping Fox can give this show a chance to find it's audience, like they did for X-Files so long ago.
I agree, Murdoch has a Bondian villian scheme, which includes promoting ignorance, dangerous political views, and intolerance, as well as keeping down talent like Joss and Tim.

If there is another reason for Fox's many flaws, I'd love to hear it.
Mis-management.
Yep, remember Hanlon's Razor: "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity." ;).

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