February 16
2009
Variety on Dollhouse ratings.
Dollhouse off to "credible start" on a "fair" Friday.
swellicon
| Dollhouse
| 16:58 CET
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96 comments total
| tags: ratings, dollhouse
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Mort | February 16, 17:02 CET
IrrationaliTV | February 16, 17:09 CET
(FWIW, it's always possible that the reporter got the name right, and then a copy editor "corrected" it.)
[ edited by The One True b!X on 2009-02-17 02:15 ]
@theonetruebix | February 16, 17:14 CET
phlebotinin | February 16, 17:18 CET
TamaraC- If Prison Break is the new lead in starting April 17th, what is going to happen to TSCC?
[ edited by Spacegirl3200 on 2009-02-17 02:24 ]
Spacegirl3200 | February 16, 17:23 CET
@theonetruebix | February 16, 17:25 CET
IrrationaliTV | February 16, 17:53 CET
Personally I'm now looking forward to The Guild returning, more than a continuation of Dollhouse. Why? Because Felicia Day is entertaining audiences.
Whedon is apparently entertaining network executives.
Why do I say that? The motorcycle scene. The kickboxing scene. Two examples of gratuitous action which did not further the plot whatsoever, but was obviously placed in keeping with formulaic requirements. Wasted time that could have been better spent on the kidnapping plot, which felt comparatively rushed and half-baked. Yet the bit between "Miss Penn" and the girl's father was some of the best stuff in the episode. Two strangers learning how to work together towards a common goal. We needed more of that and less gratuitous violence, but that's not how network executives think. Frankly I'm surprised the network didn't insist Miss Penn challenge Poppy to arm wrestle!
When he made Dr. Horrible's Sing Along Blog, he was entertaining audiences. He was entertaining ME. That first episode of Dollhouse, though "okay" was not geared to ME. It was not geared to YOU. Whedon wrote it to appease THEM.
Out of necessity, Whedon is not entertaining you or me. He's entertaining THEM. When Whedon gets back to entertaining US AND NOT THEM, call me. I'll be in my bunk.
ZachsMind | February 16, 18:14 CET
@theonetruebix | February 16, 18:17 CET
[ edited by Rhodey on 2009-02-17 04:29 ]
[ edited by Rhodey on 2009-02-17 04:37 ]
Rhodey | February 16, 18:27 CET
I'll give you the motorcycle scene, but the kickboxing scene didn't contribute to the story? Please.
gomtuu | February 16, 18:33 CET
@theonetruebix | February 16, 18:36 CET
Also, I emailed the author about his "Josh" mix up. To his credit, it was corrected and I got a reply back in less than a minute.
mle | February 16, 18:42 CET
IrrationaliTV | February 16, 18:53 CET
I also doubt very much, based on what Joss has said in many interviews, that what we are getting by way of Dollhouse episodes was churned out just for the network. I think he is still writing to please himself most of all, to play with ideas he has. I'd rather he keep doing that than write primarily to please "them" OR "us."
phlebotinin | February 16, 18:59 CET
Of course he has to appease them. They're paying for it. Individuals can't afford to make the sort of thing that appears on broadcast television. They don't have the money to make 13 50 minute episodes of television. It's too expensive for individuals to create both the quality and quantity of shows like Buffy, Angel and Firefly. They need the networks. And if the networks are paying for it, they do have a right to have an opinion on what it is they're paying for, because it's not a charity. If broadcast television dies, then what? It's not like Joss'll be able to afford to make those shows on the internet. Doctor Horrible was wonderful, but I doubt it'd be endlessly sustainable.
That isn't saying I don't wish that Joss could be allowed to do his thing. But we have to accept that, in the end, our world isn't perfect. And anyway, I'm assuming that people here are fans of Joss's past shows? They were also made with network interference. I enjoyed them anyway. I think there's room to entertain more than one group at at time.
snowinhell | February 16, 19:10 CET
Although I could always do that if it makes the writers feel better. Sort of think it'd do the opposite. "I don't like this part, it must be from the network. Stupid FOX!" seems harsher to me, anyway, than "WTF was Joss thinking with the boxing scene. Ok he's a badass. We get it. Really."
At the end of the day, the producers and writers decide how to respond to the studio's notes. So if we don't like the end result (i.e., Boxing Badass Ballard), it's still their work we're complaining about. It's not like FOX wrote the scenes, even if people are correctly surmising that they said they wanted to see more action, or even if they wanted to see Paul in an action scene.
Sunfire | February 16, 19:13 CET
Dr. Horrible is #2 in TV Seasons.
Nebula1400 | February 16, 19:19 CET
No it did not. It barely contributed to character development, because rather than have Tahmoh Penikett actually ACT in the debriefing scene, they transpose the kickboxing scene over the boring debriefing scene. The kickboxing is used to show us that detective Ballard is bubbling with frustration towards his superiors. How about showing us THAT instead of pointless kickboxing? Let Penikett ACT in the scene, and not just sit on the other side of the table like a doofus. That was the most atrociously dull staging of the debriefing scene. I _understand_ Whedon was going for a juxtaposition of images here, but that's just it - image over substance is not necessary. The image will carry through if the substance already exists.
ZachsMind | February 16, 19:33 CET
sumogrip | February 16, 19:40 CET
What would have better contributed to both was getting the three men in the debriefing scene off their butts and standing. Put them in a hallway as Ballard is going to or from something. The formal setting slowed things down.
Ooh! Better! Perhaps rather than describe what Ballard did during the FBI's white slavery bust? SHOW us!
ZachsMind | February 16, 19:45 CET
Squishy | February 16, 19:50 CET
I am excited. Rock on Joss.
Hostile 17 | February 16, 20:11 CET
Plus, if we had not seen the wild echo in the slutty dress, we wouldn't have seen much of a change between her "virgin state" and the negotiator character. Everyone would have said Eliza couldn't be different characters since two unemotional characters are not showing her range.
It also gave us our first example of how a mission works with the handlers and such.
SO I respectfully disagree that it was not needed and wasted our time.
Jayne's Hat | February 16, 20:19 CET
nyrk | February 16, 20:51 CET
Regarding the motorcycle scene, it is my understanding that the function of this scene was for a bit of exciting action after the talky lead-in, to illustrate some guy's "perfect date", and usher in the first of her personalities. The helmet tossing of course was a way to make it clear that we were watching Our Lady Echo nee Caroline and of course the hair tossing was there to be sexy even if it was a bit cliched.
Now going with the idea that this bit was intended to introduce Echo's then current imprint and demonstrate her competitive personality (aided later by the good-natured quibbling in the next scene), I think the whole thing could have been improved immensely by just one thing:
If, when Echo laid her bike down (happens to the best riders - a bit of gravel, a bit of trash, a small furry animal and...), she had actually rendered her face shield unusable by cracking it or getting something on it that obscured her vision, she could then have impatiently yanked it off showing us her strong desire to win and the hair toss could have been portrayed more like "get this damn stuff out of my way." This gives us...
...an actual character driven REASON for it all and I, for one, would feel so much better. (The series WAS made just for me, right?)
I'm still working on my ideas of how I would have handled the debriefing/boxing thing better. So far I've got nothing.
Rewriting after the fact has to be sooo much easier than creating it from scratch. Twice. It must be weird to write something, know it could be better, make it anyway, put it out there, and then have the world scrutinize it with a molecular microscope.
If any of this made no sense I apologize. I'm tired and am going to go dream about Dollhouse.
BreathesStory | February 16, 20:57 CET
and Yay! This is my very first post on Whedonesque
jtmtzrwj | February 16, 21:02 CET
Re the meeting/kickboxing scene how about showing him calmly accepting the instructions of his boss and then walking into the restroom and putting his fist through a wall? Too cliché? Too Xander in The Body ish?
I think the fight scene was better because it specifically showed him getting beat down but not giving in and coming back to win. Showing him angry during or after the meeting might just suggest him being too weak to object and that he was just meekly giving in. The way it was done made clear he was saying one thing to his boss but thinking and feeling something else.
zz9 | February 16, 21:13 CET
Which is a damn shame, because it was a great resolution to the cliffhanger it ended on. And oddly, I was thinking out loud at another forum that Dollhouse was fortunate to be following it. Then it turned out TSCC had the lower ratings.
Tonya J | February 16, 21:16 CET
BrownCoat_Tabz | February 16, 21:17 CET
Clearly, the Olmos name drop was indicative of an unhealthy cylon fetish...
swellicon | February 16, 21:27 CET
I don't defend Fox or any other network that pulls the plug on shows after two or three episodes- that just seems like bad business to me- but no way in hell is anyone spending the kind of dollars that a tv show costs without having some serious input.
I also don't mind if Dollhouse throws in some gratuitous action; just do it well. The motorcycle sequence was about as non-kinetic an action scene as I have ever seen. The "something fell on me" set-up did not make up for it.
I liked the boxing scene. It did provide some energy during some voice-over exposition. Also, it showed that Ballard is tough, will never give up, and will lie to superiors to back them off while he continues to do what he believes is right. The only thing I am unsure about is the kick to finish the fight. Was it a boxing match with the "illegal" kick showing that he is also willing to cheat to win (i.e. solve the case)?
A final thought on gratuitous action. Buffy and Angel lived on fight scenes. Sure they were symbolic for fighting inner demons, and yes they were well-woven into storylines, but no way you convince me that they weren't used by Joss to provide energy/excitement/action to the shows. Action is good; it holds our attention, keeps us interested. It just needs to be done better than the cycle scene in the pilot.
lottalettuce | February 16, 21:32 CET
SteppeMerc | February 16, 21:52 CET
Since MyNetworkTV is a FOX network isn't FOX competing with itself for the same target audience?!
IMMORTAL | February 16, 22:25 CET
[ edited by The One True b!X on 2009-02-17 08:00 ]
@theonetruebix | February 16, 22:55 CET
We almost have to certainly factor in the current climate that exists for the type of shows people want to see and what kind of return on the business side Fox is looking for. In better times, one can almost certainly argue that this show would probably survive on a "credible" level of ratings but these days its hard to say that if something does not have respectable ROI it will stay on the air. If TSCC debited this year it will almost certainly have been cancelled because of its ratings. Dollhouse almost certainly offers escapist programing that one would think a recession-weary audience would gobble up but then again it is hard to predict what programming would be acceptable these days. It seems that standard fare programming is probably more reliable than out there premises. Take a look at the big hitting shows - Dollhouse sits pretty far out from the maddening crowd.
So in the end while the initial ratings are promising. The show has to bring in the numbers to survive, otherwise its a short run for Whedon's return to TV.
North | February 16, 23:15 CET
The helmet toss was stupid, yes, but it fit into the scene in a way. She is the perfect male fantasy--strong, sexy and a little bit kinky, she dances in an impossibly short dress and wastes time and safety in order to look hot. But...the whole sequence was a throwaway. Joss introduced the dollhouse, and then did something that to me said, yeah, yeah, she can be a sex/girlfriend fantasy, sure, BUT LOOK WHAT ELSE SHE CAN DO. Brilliant.
As for ratings and lead-ins, the show will have to rely on its own merits and word of mouth, but I think it's got fair shot. The "procedural" aspects that some critics complained about made the complicated premise easy to follow for the non-invested viewer, as well as drawing the focus away from the sci-fi angle. Once Joe Blow loves the show, he won't be put off by the genre stuff. That's what I hope, anyway.
heinouslizard | February 16, 23:31 CET
Erm, that's where Fringe has been, after Idol on Tuesdays. And now Fringe is gone until sometime in April.
@theonetruebix | February 16, 23:34 CET
Madhatter | February 17, 00:02 CET
Ooh! Better! Perhaps rather than describe what Ballard did during the FBI's white slavery bust? SHOW us!
Nice to see you posting.
Simon | February 17, 04:53 CET
Nope, as others mention, it's Muay Tai - kickboxing in other words (we see kicks before that and both fighters are barefoot).
And I prefer Breathestory's motorcycle scene (with the cracked helmet and consequent valid textual reason for her to remove it) and think it's as plain as day that the kickboxing scene is there to show us Ballard not backing down (and being 'maverick' enough to lie to his superiors) - it's even cut to show the immediate contradiction between what he says (i.e. that he can and will back down) and what he does (i.e. not back down) - it's basically similar (though not as good IMO) to Mal kicking Niska's guy into the engine and says "This is a hard man with a somewhat pragmatic approach to morality who'll do whatever it takes". Whether the individual likes it or thinks it's well executed or not is gonna vary but it's most definitely character exposition in the fine old tradition of showing not telling.
Saje | February 17, 04:56 CET
Dana5140 | February 17, 05:42 CET
MobileHQ | February 17, 05:51 CET
zeitgeist | February 17, 05:52 CET
Dana5140 | February 17, 06:34 CET
Caroline | February 17, 07:00 CET
zeitgeist | February 17, 07:02 CET
Summer on Dollhouse S2, now there's a thought I like.
the Groosalugg | February 17, 07:33 CET
QingTing | February 17, 07:54 CET
Anyone else seeing a correspondence between Ballard and Kate Lockley? The emotionally troubled law enforcement professional, obsessed with something that is also getting them in trouble with their superiors - Lockely with the supernatural, Ballard with the possibly unreal (from their perspective) Dollhouse.
barboo | February 17, 08:17 CET
I would however prefer TSCC to somehow continue. But if it ended, my biggest complaint would indeed by the lack of Summer on TV, so if she could move to Dollhouse, that would ease the pain.
Hear that Joss? ;)
[ edited by SteppeMerc on 2009-02-17 17:23 ]
SteppeMerc | February 17, 08:21 CET
Firefly
In a night of mixed news on the series premiere front, although Fox's Firefly inched out of the 8 p.m. starting gate with a third-place 4.9/8 [approx 5.2 million viewers], lead-out John Doe premiered at a time period-winning 6.8/12 -- 39 percent above Firefly. ..[Firefly had] a loss of 4 percent in rating and one share point in the second half hour (5.0/9 to 4.8/8)."
Dollhouse
In series-premiere news, Fox drama Dollhouse opened with 4.72 million viewers (third behind CBS' Flashpoint and ABC's Supernanny) and a 2.0 rating/6 share among adults 18-49 (second behind Supernanny) at 9 p.m. While that is nothing to boast about, it built from re-located lead-in Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles (Viewers: #3, 3.71 million; A18:49: #2t, 1.4/ 5 at 8 p.m.) by a noticeable 1.01 million viewers and 43 percent in the demo.
[ edited by gossi on 2009-02-17 17:24 ]
gossi | February 17, 08:23 CET
IrrationaliTV | February 17, 09:41 CET
Dana5140 | February 17, 11:06 CET
It absolutely is. But it's certainly not a viable model for keeping new and slow-burn series on television long enough to even develop boxed sets. (Or, at least, to develop more than one.)
[ edited by The One True b!X on 2009-02-17 20:15 ]
@theonetruebix | February 17, 11:14 CET
[ edited by Dana5140 on 2009-02-17 21:19 ]
[ edited by Dana5140 on 2009-02-17 21:20 ]
Dana5140 | February 17, 12:18 CET
Septimus | February 17, 12:24 CET
And putting Dollhouse behind Idol: I still think episode 6 "Man on the Street", Joss' second-half-of-the-season-pilot, would be the perfect episode to do this. Right now it's scheduled on Mar 20, right up against the BSG-finale. That will inevitably cripple it, I think. Putting it on Mar 17 would do wonders.
wiesengrund | February 17, 13:20 CET
Septimus | February 17, 13:28 CET
embers | February 17, 13:54 CET
phlebotinin | February 17, 14:13 CET
Saje | February 17, 14:27 CET
I found Dollhouse to be intriguing, engaging and intense, especially the last half hour or so. I liked the way it was presented, keeping in mind that there may be people tuning in who have not been obsessing over it for months. :D
My thoughts: Adele and Caroline had some kind of previous relationship. Someone on the other thread suggested Adele was her mother, but I didn't think it was that close - my first thought was stepmother or possibly older sister, but I also thought it could be a former school principal or counselor who thought much differently than the teacher Caroline was trying to emulate. (My assumption is that the "her" she said she was trying to be like in the first scene was the same teacher she refers to in the yearbook scene.)
We cut from Adele saying, "What if there don't have to be consequences?" to a fast-riding motorcycle scene and an obviously carefree young woman who likes fast bikes, dancing in daring dresses and taking a chance on love. It's a nice juxtaposition and it works to introduce us to the concept of the dolls. Most of the criticisms I'm reading of this scene are that it was a gratuitous scene and forced on Joss by Fox. (Yes, I did think of Faith in the Bronze while she was dancing.)
However, look at it as a new show that you know very little about. Here is a young woman who looks as if she's having a great time with nary a care in the world and a guy who looks as if he's falling for her, too. Then her whole demeanour changes as she heads out to the van and we realise there is more going on. The heart necklace falling out of her hand while she's being stripped of her memories of the 'engagement' was painful to me.
Regarding the kidnapping seeming like a run-of-the-mill procedural, I didn't get that feeling at all. Maybe that was because I like procedurals and watch quite a few, as mentioned on a recent thread, but I was totally focussed on Echo/Miss Penn and her handling of the situation and her reactions.
Although I watched Firefly on TV from the first episode shown, I wasn't a Joss fan then, so my first exposure to the anticipation of a Joss creation was Serenity and then Dr. Horrible. Watching week to week is going to be a lovely exercise in delayed gratification for me. :D
I haven't stopped thinking about this show since I saw it on Friday - and then rewatched it Sunday - and can hardly wait until the next episode this week! As far as I'm concerned, Joss is back!
samatwitch | February 17, 14:33 CET
Septimus | February 17, 14:36 CET
Not if you want to go out in the evening on St Patricks Day ^_^.
Simon | February 17, 14:41 CET
Dana5140 | February 17, 14:44 CET
Not if you want to go out in the evening on St Patricks Day ^_^.
It's a school night this year anyway though, we're all much too sensible to indulge in midweek drinking, right ? ... Everyone ? ... *crickets*
... I'll just add that one of my favorite lines (and it's entirely the delivery and the context) was Echo's "I met a guy." It was perfectly sweet and, in context, heartbreaking.
Pretty much everything she said leading up to her "treatments" really resonated with me, just because we know what's coming (i.e. she is, effectively, about to be executed). Knowledge of mortality adds a poignancy to most things, in the right context.
And that's true samatwitch, nice observation about the no consequences/motorbike scenes. In fact, it even adds a take on the helmet thing, in that someone that rides without a helmet is clearly not someone overly concerned with consequences.
ET appease the parenthesis gods ;)
[ edited by Saje on 2009-02-17 23:48 ]
Saje | February 17, 14:47 CET
wiesengrund | February 17, 14:48 CET
SteppeMerc | February 17, 14:59 CET
Saje | February 17, 15:06 CET
SteppeMerc | February 17, 15:15 CET
Let Down | February 17, 15:16 CET
(just keep repeating over and over "everybodyDVRseverybodyDVRseverybodyDVRs..." ;)
Saje | February 17, 15:29 CET
Also: did I mention I finally saw 1x01 (I was away for the weekend and am recovering from a nice case of the flu, which made me miss out on all the whedonesque premiere fun unfortunately) and I quite liked it. In fact: a lot more than I was expecting to from just the initial batch of reviews. I guess I really am a fanboy, after all ;).
GVH | February 17, 16:19 CET
What I can't get out of my head is the opening line to the show - Adele intoning, "Nothing is what it seems." That made me wonder about the possibility of this whole show being presented from the pov of some unnamed unreliable narrator. You know, the whole show being threaded through at the core with trickery and uncertainty and we're going to find ourselves very, very discombobulated at some point when what we think we know about the fundamentals of the show are upended. Then again, that opening line could just refer to the basic theme of the show that is revisited every episode - memory, identity, self being wipeable, not the reliable or eternal things that they seem.
Oh god, I'm getting all ridiculous.
Wait - *three* hours of a BSG finale?! Really? Wow. Damn, I hope Dollhouse is moved that night to a prime spot not against BSG. It'd be a damn shame if it weren't.
[ edited by phlebotinin on 2009-02-18 01:35 ]
phlebotinin | February 17, 16:30 CET
DaisyButtercup | February 17, 16:50 CET
I got the same sense samatwitch did, that there was clearly some kind of prior relationship between Caroline and Adele. Caroline saying "You're loving this, aren't you?" suggested that Adele had reason, perhaps, to be feeling "I told you so"-ish about whatever was going on with Caroline. Or that she'd tried and failed to recruit her before? I just hope we get to find out!
I've always been a DVD box set kinda girl myself, Dana5140, so I know what you mean. But I'm not so good at preventing myself from binge-watching, so it doesn't always work out brilliantly. I'm really enjoying the wait-a-week thing for my current three shows, BSG, The Office, and now, yay, Dollhouse!
catherine | February 17, 16:51 CET
As for the opening line, I'm not sure they'll end up meaning much more than is usual in a Joss-show. I don't think they're carelessly chosen, I'm even partly sure that it's one of the major mission statements for the show. But I don't quite think that it might lead to a situation where the narrator isn't trustworthy. If the viewer can't really trust what (s)he's seeing, that'd make getting involved in the show ever more difficult and would create a lot of confusion. Not sure Fox'd even allow that :). But yes: certainly not randomly chosen.
GVH | February 17, 17:08 CET
I get the sense that Adele knew Caroline's mother, and there were some tensions in the relationship. Perhaps Adele is the sister of Caroline's step-father or something like that. One of those cruel Dickensian family-but-not-quite relationships.
AlanD | February 17, 18:01 CET
BrownCoat_Tabz | February 17, 18:02 CET
@theonetruebix | February 17, 18:04 CET
Sunfire | February 17, 18:13 CET
phlebotinin | February 17, 18:36 CET
@theonetruebix | February 17, 18:40 CET
Sunfire | February 17, 18:40 CET
Sunfire | February 17, 18:44 CET
phlebotinin | February 17, 18:48 CET
Septimus | February 17, 19:08 CET
Septimus | February 17, 19:11 CET
Septimus, I'm in academia and know more professors than I'd like to and I don't know anyone who goes by "Mrs." or "Mr." But I'm sure it's not impossible. Just not common.
phlebotinin | February 17, 19:41 CET
Septimus | February 17, 20:12 CET
samatwitch | February 18, 00:24 CET
ETA this:
And speaking of Josh Whedon (which we were at the start of the thread), does anyone know anything about the Twitter account @joshwhedon? It is one of only four people that @julietlandau follows, the others including Felicia and Amber, and Juliet seems to be real (or at least Amber thinks so).
[ edited by AlanD on 2009-02-18 16:07 ]
AlanD | February 18, 06:59 CET
angry_puppy | February 18, 07:51 CET
gossi | February 18, 08:09 CET
BrownCoat_Tabz | February 19, 15:05 CET