February 19 2009
(SPOILER)
What to expect from Buffy #24.
Jim Krueger tells Comic Book Resources all about this very special one-shot.
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menomegirl | February 19, 13:48 CET
Awesome. I really like his other insights in there too, especially about Faith and Giles, but that paragraph about Buffy was my very favorite.
Sunfire | February 19, 14:09 CET
Enisy | February 19, 14:12 CET
@theonetruebix | February 19, 14:19 CET
nutterbudgie | February 19, 14:38 CET
gossi | February 19, 15:01 CET
If he is Buffy's really going to freak. Not that she can talk.
Sunfire | February 19, 15:06 CET
Giles and Faith seem pretty normal in comparison to vampires, ex-1000-year-old-vengence demons, and snake ladies. Or thricewises, whatever the heck they are.
Also, who hasn't done a slayer? (Well, okay, maybe Dawn hasn't...but you get my drift)
[ edited by menomegirl on 2009-02-20 00:23 ]
menomegirl | February 19, 15:20 CET
@theonetruebix | February 19, 15:21 CET
menomegirl | February 19, 15:24 CET
gossi | February 19, 15:25 CET
MadeToLoveJoss | February 19, 15:25 CET
If it does happen.. Buffy is gonna freak!
vampmogs | February 19, 15:49 CET
KingofCretins | February 19, 15:49 CET
phlebotinin | February 19, 16:50 CET
Buffyfantic | February 19, 16:53 CET
DaddyCatALSO | February 19, 17:40 CET
gossi-If it's being misinterpreted, you're not the only one. Someone mentioned it at the Bronze:Beta when Google started running those ads.
menomegirl | February 19, 17:47 CET
KingofCretins | February 19, 18:02 CET
menomegirl | February 19, 18:12 CET
Faith is Buffy's sometimes friend and sometimes rival, and easily one of the people with whom Buffy has the most complex relationships. She is basically Buffy's other sister (I've always thought of her as a slightly older, jaded sibling).
It's not just the age difference, it's the relationship in context of Buffy. Giles being with Faith would be like a college student's dad starting an affair with her slightly estranged best friend from high school. It would be a horrible, grotesque violation of Buffy's relationship with Giles, and one that could never be taken back. It would instantly vault into the top 5 worst thought out plot developments in the history of the Buffyverse. And, yes, I can see the Jerry Springer parody in my head of Giles, Faith, and Buffy on stage.
[ edited by KingofCretins on 2009-02-20 03:30 ]
KingofCretins | February 19, 18:23 CET
Buffyfantic | February 19, 18:25 CET
Buffyfantic-Actually, I would, too. But it's made interesting conversation.
[ edited by menomegirl on 2009-02-20 03:49 ]
menomegirl | February 19, 18:36 CET
Emelye | February 19, 19:01 CET
[ edited by KingofCretins on 2009-02-20 04:25 ]
KingofCretins | February 19, 19:24 CET
[ edited by menomegirl on 2009-02-20 04:36 ]
menomegirl | February 19, 19:34 CET
Good point though. If Buffy/Satsu can work on different levels, both as "sisters" which the connection between slayers/sisters has been made in season eight already in 'The Long Way Home' by Xander and Buffy in 'Harmonic Divergence' and on a sexual, intimate non-incesty-level than Buffy/Faith's "almost sisters" vibe shouldn't put a dent on Faith/Giles which can also operate on another level, the level where Faith isn't actually Buffy sis...
[ edited by vampmogs on 2009-02-20 04:40 ]
vampmogs | February 19, 19:34 CET
For me, this is more like Keith Mars sleeping with Mac and/or Madison Sinclair.
[ edited by KingofCretins on 2009-02-20 04:39 ]
KingofCretins | February 19, 19:39 CET
Oh, this made me laugh. But yeah, Buffy is NOT going to be okay with Giles and Faith having sex. *I'm* not okay with Giles and Faith having sex.
I thought the "bedmates" lingo was just metaphor for being partners right now. Is it really meant to be taken this literally? Where are these ads?
Emmie | February 19, 19:46 CET
KingofCretins-Ah. Well, in that case, I would say that Giles did not berate Buffy when she slept with Angel, nor did he berate her when he first found out about Spike. I'd like to think she's matured enough to respond in kind to any revelation about Giles and Faith possibly being romantically involved.
Also, you're not considering Faith in this. I happen to think Giles would be a very steadying influence for her and not as a watcher.
menomegirl | February 19, 19:49 CET
Try this -- Buffy shows up at Giles' place to show off her new boyfriend Ethan Rayne. THAT is what we're talking about here.
Emmie, bedmates wasn't the line, it was about Faith and her bad sex and Giles being prim and proper as if these were the things that were intersecting.
KingofCretins | February 19, 19:54 CET
Giles had sex with Angel and Spike????? When?
menomegirl | February 19, 19:57 CET
Really what's more implausible on first glance? The idea of Faith/Giles hooking up after the end of 'No Future For You' or Xander hooking up with Anya from 'The Wish' or Buffy hooking up with Spike from 'Schoolhard.' Things change and develop and Giles/Faith is a lot easier to digest right now than either of those other two options were if somebody had told you Buffy/Xander were going to hook up with Anya/Spike back in the day.
Wait and see how it turns out, if it turns out at all, then make an opinion on it. Preconceived opinions aren't going to do anyone a world of good.
[ edited by vampmogs on 2009-02-20 05:04 ]
vampmogs | February 19, 20:02 CET
Let's do this analytically so we're not wandering about each other's examples. How the hell did I say anything about Giles having sex with Angel or Spike? That would demand Buffy had had sex with Faith.
/ = pseudo-parent child bond.
<-> = good & bad pseudo sibling bond.
[] = sexual relationship.
I formulate first, Giles / Buffy, Buffy <-> Faith, Giles [] Faith.
In order for Giles disapproval of Spike or Angel to matter as a paralle, you'd be asserting that Giles <-> Angel or Giles <-> Spike. Neither of those are correct.
Buffy / Giles, Giles <-> Ethan, Buffy [] Ethan would fit the pattern, though. And it would be just as frickin' offensive to Giles, for good reason, as Giles and Faith being together would be to Buffy.
My goodness, this idea revolts me. What black, foul, Laurell K. Hamilton's-later-works hell would have spawned such a subplot?
[ edited by KingofCretins on 2009-02-20 05:05 ]
KingofCretins | February 19, 20:04 CET
I said: I would say that Giles did not berate Buffy when she slept with Angel, nor did he berate her when he first found out about Spike. There was nothing about any relationship Giles might have had with either vampire in that statement. You're the one who went there, not me.
I agree that there's a pseudo-parent child bond between Buffy and Giles. But there isn't a pseudo-parent child bond between Giles and Faith.
vampmogs-At the time Buffy intiated a sexual relationship with Spike, I don't think she gave Xander's opinions a single thought. And you're right. Things do change and develop.
[ edited by menomegirl on 2009-02-20 05:21 ]
menomegirl | February 19, 20:13 CET
KingofCretins | February 19, 20:15 CET
menomegirl | February 19, 20:18 CET
Emmie | February 19, 20:20 CET
menomegirl | February 19, 20:23 CET
vampmogs, you're comparison to xander/anya and spike/buffy pairings are bad examples because yes, it is more believable to see those pairings from the early examples. You don't know barely anything about the characters or what their journeys are. Giles and Faith are characters we know thoroughly well, and have seen go through transformations, so a judgment call on whether or not its believable is much easier to make than a xander/anya one.
If you want a comparison, I would say a better one is Willow and Buffy. It's a relationship that COULD happen and COULD be acceptable, like Faith and Giles, but before all is weird, and involve a betrayal of many people's feelings (dead and alive).
narky | February 19, 20:39 CET
sarahi | February 19, 20:43 CET
Emmie | February 19, 20:46 CET
narky | February 19, 20:46 CET
KingofCretins | February 19, 20:46 CET
And let's reflect on the scene from which that line came.
Knuckleball | February 19, 20:48 CET
KingofCretins-You're still using the difference in age as an example.
[ edited by menomegirl on 2009-02-20 05:55 ]
menomegirl | February 19, 20:53 CET
Also, look at Buffy's reaction to finding out that Giles was simply *working* with Faith, in the NFFY issues. Imagine what her reaction would be, if she were to learn that they were... boffing.
I also agree that the situation would be wrong, simply from a storytelling standpoint. There's no reason for this to suddenly happen, with the way NFFY ended. Another poster mentioned that many things go unexplained in Season 8, but to my knowledge these are almost entirely things that happened prior to Season 8. This, to me, would be akin to that scene in Planet Terror, in which Rose McGowan and Freddy Rodriguez are about to have sex, there's a missing reel, and suddenly the house is in blazes.
I really hope this is just us fans being freakish and taking things way too literally.
Knuckleball | February 19, 21:28 CET
Isn't that an intrinsic part of the scenario, though? We've got a fatherish person sleeping with his daughterish person's peer-rival-enemy-friend (PREF).* Sure, the daughter and the PREF are both adults now. The dad having a relationship with an adult his daughter's age isn't bad per se. But given the whole PREF situation, for him to have a relationship with this person his daughter's age shows an extraordinary insensitivity to his daughter's feelings. It's callous, and selfish, and just kinda wrong.
That's how I see it, anyway. But given that we don't even know if Giles/Faith happens, maybe I'm getting carried away. :-)
erendis | February 19, 21:32 CET
The core of the problem is that Buffy's surrogate father would be sleeping with one of her closest friends/most bitter rivals all in one. It's nasty beyond the articulation of it. It's Buffy sleeping with Ethan. It's Keith Mars sleeping with Madison Sinclair. It's Jim Walsh sleeping with Kelly Taylor. It's Pa Kent sleeping with Chloe Sullivan or Ma Kent sleeping with Lex Luthor.
KingofCretins | February 19, 21:33 CET
Taaroko | February 19, 22:25 CET
Caroline | February 19, 23:09 CET
Simon | February 19, 23:19 CET
Caroline | February 20, 00:09 CET
gossi | February 20, 00:18 CET
This is no different than Buffy sleeping with Spike which she knew would greatly upset Xander, which he would find wrong on so many levels ect. They got over it, if it does happen Buffy will get over this.
This could turn out bad for so many reasons, poor writing for a start, but it's not so outrageous and horrible as people are making it out to be. I think people are greatly overreacting.
As for the lack of romantic lead-up? Well looking back on old threads I've seen at least one member on Buffyforums at the time there was a romantic vibe between Giles/Faith so maybe they caught something the rest of us missed? Regardless, we haven't seen them for months, possibly at least half a year or even more we were always going to see things when we pop back to Faith/Giles that we had no lead up to, because it's a huge time for characters to change and for things to happen. As long as they explain it well in the issue if it even happens and make it believable there's no issue there.
vampmogs | February 20, 00:42 CET
Awesome | February 20, 00:48 CET
Also the Xander/Anya thing was a bit iffy in terms of age difference. Same for Harmony/Spike and Wes/Illyria would have been jawdropping.
And if Faith and Giles do happen, great drama ahead methinks.
Simon | February 20, 00:56 CET
I think people are overreacting in the sense of, "oh god how could he do this to Buffy it will ruin their friendship forever!" or “he’s so old he’s icky!” cause c’mon, Buffy’s technically a necrophiliac and Willow’s managed to have sex with a “serpent” which is all kinds of weird… but if they're going to do this, they really got to tread carefully.
They have to write it in a way it's believable for both characters and doesn't feel completely out of left field, which is why I'm reserving real judgement until I can read it for myself... if it even happens.
vampmogs | February 20, 01:08 CET
narky | February 20, 02:05 CET
There is no betrayal. Giles is not Buffy's father. He didn't come into her life till she was 16. He left the continent few years after that and told her she had to stand on her own two feet. And it worked, look at how Buffy takes the leadership in season 7. And here's the big one guys, even if he was her father, he's entitled to sleep with whoever he wants.
When you grow up, you realise your parents are people too. I never need to know that my parents had sex any more than four times (3 boys and girl times). I never need to hear about their exploits or why the idea of dwarfs having sex sends them to the convulsions of laughter, dirty looks and a sly "Do you remember when" and thank god they've never finished that sentence in my presence.
If you take away the history and take the story as a stand alone, you would be dying for them to get together. Faith must feel so alone and the only person in that story who can see the real her is Giles. Let them connect with each other. Let them console each other. Let them comfort each other.
Let them get it on!
missyu | February 20, 02:41 CET
Giles did looked shocked in No Future for You pt1 when Faith came downstairs with the ballgown on, maybe that was a hint. But tbh, there hasn't been a build up towards a romantic relationship. I just think any Faith/Giles romance would be too awkward.
Shep | February 20, 02:51 CET
FAITH: I see him. If I'd've known they came *that* young and cute, I would've requested a transfer.
Caroline | February 20, 03:03 CET
About possible Giles/Faith. Slightly "ew" but I can live with that. Buffy/Giles relationship is already pretty much ruined so I don't think that this additional detail will make any real difference.
I am not sure though that we can rely on Giles as necessarily a stabilising/positive influence on Faith. After all, knowing Faith story and situation very well, he sent her on the mission of killing another slayer. To put it cynically, he used her as a tool, chosen because of her previous murderous experience, for his own covert operation. Overall, I don't feel that I know Giles anymore. He became kinda unpredictable for me.
Lince | February 20, 03:38 CET
Also, can I ask that everyone who says "if they do THIS to the characters, I'll stop reading" be bound by law to actually stop reading? That way people will maybe say it less and just get over it.
Sparticus | February 20, 03:40 CET
Sparticus - I have to agree about the law...
Now for my two cents. Those of you going on and on about how Giles is Buffy's this and Buffy's that are forgetting that he is also Rupert Giles, a fairly well rounded and fleshed out character in his own right. He and Buffy have clearly had a falling out. But so what? He was a person with out her, so now he's a person with out her again. He and Faith are both free agents.
If every decision made for the characters in the Buffyverse were made asking "How will this effect Buffy?" "Probably not good." "Oh, well we better not do that then." Then there would be no story. Joss created a bunch of wonderful characters that act independently, fall in love, sometimes act foolish, and in general are pretty human.
If they are sleeping together, which I tend to think they are, then good for them and may they find comfort which god knows they both seek and need.
[ edited by Marion the Geek on 2009-02-20 13:26 ]
Marion the Geek | February 20, 04:11 CET
Then you aren't paying attention to the argument. If Giles was just off trolling universities for buxom coeds, more power to him. The offense here is based in the relationships between Buffy and Giles and Buffy and Faith. It is exactly an insult to Buffy, just as it would be if Buffy had started sleeping with Ethan. Do you think Giles would have been okay with Buffy and Ethan? No, not "Buffy and an older guy" (Wood? Irrelevant. Spike? Irrelevant. Angel? Irrelevant), Buffy and Ethan.
Sure. But he'd still be perfect for an episode of Jerry Springer if he sleeps with *her*.
As for what it would be for Giles and Faith individually, it would make a mess out of the dynamic that was set up in 8.09. For one thing, Sparticus spots this, it was Giles, not Faith, who needed a steadying influence after "No Future For You". It was Faith who understood the real mission, not Giles. So is everybody just going to flip their pro-PWP argument and say "oh, well, then, Faith would be a stabilizing influence on Giles"?
[ edited by KingofCretins on 2009-02-20 13:26 ]
KingofCretins | February 20, 04:22 CET
Pretty_Hate_Machine | February 20, 04:25 CET
[ edited by Marion the Geek on 2009-02-20 13:31 ]
Marion the Geek | February 20, 04:30 CET
Which, incidentally, actually already happened in Season 3. I recall a certain Watcher taking gross offense at Buffy keeping Angel a secret (and the smoochies that Xander saw that brought them to that argument) *because* of the torture. Thanks for providing an example that, while only loosely parallel, actually supports my point :)
KingofCretins | February 20, 04:35 CET
[ edited by Marion the Geek on 2009-02-20 13:43 ]
Marion the Geek | February 20, 04:40 CET
[ edited by KingofCretins on 2009-02-20 13:45 ]
KingofCretins | February 20, 04:44 CET
Marion the Geek | February 20, 04:50 CET
Marion & I are simply stating that we do not agree with you.
We do not believe Giles & Buffy to be as close as you seem to think
We are of the opinion that comfort and solice might be the reason behind the hook-up. Not hatred / drama / spite / shock value etc.
Marion, sorry if I've taken you up wrong and I wish you the best in this argument but I'm so out of here!
missyu | February 20, 04:56 CET
Is Faith insulting Buffy by sleeping with Giles? Or are we just assuming that as a young and impressionable girl she is being seduced and therefor its only big bad Giles who is at fault?
For anyone who needs the clarification, the words "young and impressionable" are said here in jest because while she may be young, I certainly find Faith adult and cpable of choosing her own sexual partners. She, if no one else, is a master of her own sexuality.
And missyu - you have me right. Thanks ^_^
Marion the Geek | February 20, 04:59 CET
What is this theme of "finding comfort in each other"? It presumes a number of unpalatable things. First of all, that Faith and Giles live bleak and desperate lives. Second, that jumping into bed is the best (or any productive kind of) way in changing that. Third, that "finding comfort" is a legitimate end to which any behavior can be justified.
This is Xander sleeping with Joyce, it's Buffy sleeping with Ethan, it's Anya sleeping with Ira Rosenberg.
Hopefully this isn't what Krueger was talking about anyway, and that this porn-fantasy plot twist is purely academic. I actually really wanted to see a spinoff about Faith and Giles, and to see it devolve into something so sordid and trite would really be a disappointment.
[ edited by KingofCretins on 2009-02-20 14:03 ]
KingofCretins | February 20, 05:02 CET
Reading the interview, and the comments above, I do wonder if the word 'bedmates' is to be taken literally. If it is, then it is, but I wonder if it was intended in the sense of 'stablemates' or as in people that have been thrown together who wouldn't normally have been. I have heard the word used in that context.
If it is to be taken literally, then...OK, that's strange. But I'll still read because either way it would be a very good way of looking at where Buffy's relationship stands with the pair of them in her opinion. Might that be the betrayal that she was crying from the shock of in Anywhere But Here?
(Sorry, I'm not as articulate as I'd like to be.)
171Oak | February 20, 06:05 CET
Sometimes that's literally true, but usually it's just a figure of speech.
[ edited by Rowan Hawthorn on 2009-02-20 15:37 ]
Rowan Hawthorn | February 20, 06:37 CET
It doesn't really matter. He was Buffy's boss when she went on a date with him, which was a bigger problem.
The people who are saying this would hardly be the strangest BtVS relationship are not wrong. Plus poor Giles has been single pretty much forever now. I'd been hoping that'd change for him. I didn't expect it to be Faith, but eh. I'll get over it.
[ edited by Sunfire on 2009-02-20 16:24 ]
Sunfire | February 20, 07:23 CET
menomegirl | February 20, 07:26 CET
Which clearly lays out the relationship between Giles and Faith.
NotaViking | February 20, 07:37 CET
nyrk | February 20, 07:50 CET
Ew. Blech. I'm with King of Cretins.
Xane | February 20, 07:59 CET
Can't really say the same of Faith/Giles.
menomegirl | February 20, 08:11 CET
Emmie | February 20, 08:50 CET
I never even thought of the age difference between Wes and Illyria, wow. Millions of years, wouldn't it have been ? Wes wins for May/December romances/flings in the Buffyverse. Not to mention there're the unique gender mixings, with Illyria apparently being an "it" or a "him" (based on Knox calling Illyria his King) in its former (original?) incarnation, but in a human female body currently.
The folks claiming Buffy would be hurt/freak out...maybe at first, but maybe she'd get over it. And maybe she's been through so much and has such bigger fish to fry and happens to have just had her own bit of sexual experimentation that she just wouldn't give a damn. We can't ask her and, as we're finding, we still don't/can't know her character entirely, so there's no way to predict. It's really impossible to presume for Buffy what her reaction would be. Keep reading and see.
I don't think Faith/Giles will happen, but if it does, I'll see how they handle it before I instantly condemn it as a poor decision for a direction. For all any of us knows, it could turn out to be intriguing, uplifting, tragic, maybe even touching.
Even though she's younger, Faith seems a lot more adult/grown-up than Buffy. Just how she comes off to me, regardless of the fact that she's made the worse choices overall and is the least responsible of the two.
When I started reading the thread, the first few posts, I wasn't "ew", but I was thinking, "that'd be really weird and lose so many readers". But there's no way for me to really know how the majority of the fandom would react. And after reading this whole thread and getting used to the idea, how it might play out, what their dynamic might be like...it doesn't seem like it'd be so weird.
Kris | February 20, 09:21 CET
If this is set in early 2005, i'd imagine Faith is 25 going on 26. Definitely an adult.
And I think as of now my Chidlren of the Dale ficverse has genuinely jumped away from canon, since by this time in my chronology Harmony would be living in seclusion in San Bernardino seekign redemption and Faith's relationship with Doug Potashkin, US Attorney, would be well along . Darn, and there's still so much good stuff in the comics I want to steal for my storyline.
[ edited by DaddyCatALSO on 2009-02-20 18:54 ]
DaddyCatALSO | February 20, 09:48 CET
It's true that there have been some inappropriate relationships among the Jossverse characters, but the only thing that ever came close to being so icky was when Connor slept with Cordelia, but Connor was a lot more screwed up at the time than Faith is now. It might actually be a step backward in Faith's character development for her to go to bed with Giles.
sarahi | February 20, 10:53 CET
menomegirl | February 20, 12:02 CET
cmbackshane | February 20, 13:06 CET
Does anyone know what they're going to call the fifth TPB? It's not an arc after all.
Chris the Bloody | February 20, 16:02 CET
nyrk | February 21, 01:21 CET