What to expect from Buffy #24 - BtVS

Oh hey. That sounds like a comic I might read.

“What I love about Buffy is that it’s all got to do with the fact that, despite everything that happens, she’s still a girl,” offered Krueger. “Joss and his teams of writers have created this girl who never loses herself to the fight. And that’s really admirable. I often think that this is the problem with say, Wonder Woman. Despite the costume, despite the curves, she’s not really a girl. She’s not allowed to mess up in relationships the way a girl would, not allowed to love someone she shouldn’t, not able to really be human. And that’s what makes Buffy really great. And that’s why so many of her enemies become her friends throughout the series.”

Awesome. I really like his other insights in there too, especially about Faith and Giles, but that paragraph about Buffy was my very favorite.

Sunfire | February 19, 23:09 CET

Awesome interview. He seems to really "get" Buffy. :)

Enisy | February 19, 23:12 CET

Bedmates?

b!X | February 19, 23:19 CET

Now THAT would be interesting.

nutterbudgie | February 19, 23:38 CET

I did notice they were running some promos on Google Adsense which tended to indicate Faith and Giles are having of the sex.

gossi | February 20, 00:01 CET

Augh. I hope not. I love both characters and their rapport but that'd be just too weird. He's such a father figure to the younger characters, I can't really process him sleeping with any of the extended Scooby network.

If he is Buffy's really going to freak. Not that she can talk.

Sunfire | February 20, 00:06 CET

Hmmm you know? I don't think any of the Scoobies should be judgemental about who and/or what any of the others have sexual relations with. I mean, take a look at the track record. None of these people are normal (for lack of a better word).

Giles and Faith seem pretty normal in comparison to vampires, ex-1000-year-old-vengence demons, and snake ladies. Or thricewises, whatever the heck they are.

Also, who hasn't done a slayer? (Well, okay, maybe Dawn hasn't...but you get my drift)

[ edited by menomegirl on 2009-02-20 00:23 ]

menomegirl | February 20, 00:20 CET

Well, arguably it might fit in with the "abuse of power" theme running through the season.

b!X | February 20, 00:21 CET

And if it were Buffy/Giles we were talking about, I'd agree, b!x.

menomegirl | February 20, 00:24 CET

My smutty mind could just be misinterpreting the banners they're running. It often does.

gossi | February 20, 00:25 CET

A big woo hoo to the Faith/Giles story being brought back!

MadeToLoveJoss | February 20, 00:25 CET

I actually don't think it would be an "abuse of power." At first I was uncomfortable with this, not because of the age I mean "my boyfriend had a bicentennial" but because I thought it was a little wrong with the teacher/student vibe which is why I never got into the idea of Angel/Faith either. But then I looked back at their final scene in 'NFFY' and it was about equality and partnership, Giles asked Faith if he could join her and they both made it clear he wouldn't be leading her but working with her, so really there's no teacher/vibe going on here at all.

If it does happen.. Buffy is gonna freak!

vampmogs | February 20, 00:49 CET

If they're having sex, congratulations Hank -- you're now back on top of the "Best Father Figure to Buffy" rankings.

KingofCretins | February 20, 00:49 CET

I hate the idea. Really, really hate it.

phlebotinin | February 20, 01:50 CET

I'm really looking forward to this issue.Probably of this arc,this is the one I've been most anticipating.Also I really enjoy Jim Krueger's work.I've followed his Earth X trilogy and Justice and I'm currently reading his Avengers/Invaders.Can't wait to see what he does here.

Buffyfantic | February 20, 01:53 CET

I fourth-wall-justify this by saying that Tony probably never had the fatherly relationship to Eliza he had to Sara, Amber, emma, and especially Alyson so if this were ever filmed he could handle doing it.

DaddyCatALSO | February 20, 02:40 CET

KingofCretins-Why would Giles having a relationship with Faith elevate Hank as a father figure above him? Last we heard of Hank, he was 'living the cliche' with someone we can only assume was younger than him.

gossi-If it's being misinterpreted, you're not the only one. Someone mentioned it at the Bronze:Beta when Google started running those ads.

menomegirl | February 20, 02:47 CET

Hank might be living a cliche, but Giles sleeping with Faith would have moved him down to "Jerry Springer guest".

KingofCretins | February 20, 03:02 CET

KingofCretins-I don't think so, especially considering the ages of two of Buffy's former lovers. That'd be the pot calling the kettle.

menomegirl | February 20, 03:12 CET

Giles is, in every way that matters, Buffy's *father*. He's held her when she cried, treated her wounds, paid her bills. He's acted as a father to her and to her sister when Buffy wasn't able. He's made love to her mother, spell or not.

Faith is Buffy's sometimes friend and sometimes rival, and easily one of the people with whom Buffy has the most complex relationships. She is basically Buffy's other sister (I've always thought of her as a slightly older, jaded sibling).

It's not just the age difference, it's the relationship in context of Buffy. Giles being with Faith would be like a college student's dad starting an affair with her slightly estranged best friend from high school. It would be a horrible, grotesque violation of Buffy's relationship with Giles, and one that could never be taken back. It would instantly vault into the top 5 worst thought out plot developments in the history of the Buffyverse. And, yes, I can see the Jerry Springer parody in my head of Giles, Faith, and Buffy on stage.

[ edited by KingofCretins on 2009-02-20 03:30 ]

KingofCretins | February 20, 03:23 CET

I'll have to see it to believe it in regards to Giles/Faith sleeping together.

Buffyfantic | February 20, 03:25 CET

KingofCretins-I disagree with you. :) It would be a great plot development. ETA-She is basically Buffy's other sister. Uh huh. So, what would that make Satsu to Buffy?

Buffyfantic-Actually, I would, too. But it's made interesting conversation.

[ edited by menomegirl on 2009-02-20 03:49 ]

menomegirl | February 20, 03:36 CET

So help me if Giles and Faith hook up I will have a cat. Very much in agreement with KoC. They would totally put the hell in unhealthy.

Emelye | February 20, 04:01 CET

What the hell does Satsu and Buffy's relationship have to do with Buffy and Faith's? Textually, that is. A bunch of Buffy/Faith fanfics do not them lovers make.

[ edited by KingofCretins on 2009-02-20 04:25 ]

KingofCretins | February 20, 04:24 CET

KingofCretins-I wasn't speaking of fanfiction or Buffy/Faith. You said:He's acted as a father to her and to her sister when Buffy wasn't able. and went on to say: She {Faith} is basically Buffy's other sister., which suggested to me that you think Buffy would find Giles/Faith repugnant by that reasoning. So, I replied with a question about Buffy/Satsu. If Faith is basically Buffy's sister, then so should be Satsu and every other slayer. :)

[ edited by menomegirl on 2009-02-20 04:36 ]

menomegirl | February 20, 04:34 CET

Oh so you beat me to it!

Good point though. If Buffy/Satsu can work on different levels, both as "sisters" which the connection between slayers/sisters has been made in season eight already in 'The Long Way Home' by Xander and Buffy in 'Harmonic Divergence' and on a sexual, intimate non-incesty-level than Buffy/Faith's "almost sisters" vibe shouldn't put a dent on Faith/Giles which can also operate on another level, the level where Faith isn't actually Buffy sis...

[ edited by vampmogs on 2009-02-20 04:40 ]

vampmogs | February 20, 04:34 CET

I didn't say Faith was like Buffy's sister because she's a Slayer. She's like her sister because of their alternating friendship, comraderies, hatred, jealousy, distrust, trust, etc. If neither of them were Slayers, I'd still say they were almost sisters. I assumed it obvious that this is what I was talking about.

For me, this is more like Keith Mars sleeping with Mac and/or Madison Sinclair.

[ edited by KingofCretins on 2009-02-20 04:39 ]

KingofCretins | February 20, 04:39 CET

If they're having sex, congratulations Hank -- you're now back on top of the "Best Father Figure to Buffy" rankings.

Oh, this made me laugh. But yeah, Buffy is NOT going to be okay with Giles and Faith having sex. *I'm* not okay with Giles and Faith having sex.

I thought the "bedmates" lingo was just metaphor for being partners right now. Is it really meant to be taken this literally? Where are these ads?

Emmie | February 20, 04:46 CET

vampmogs-That's exactly what I meant. You got it both times. :)

KingofCretins-Ah. Well, in that case, I would say that Giles did not berate Buffy when she slept with Angel, nor did he berate her when he first found out about Spike. I'd like to think she's matured enough to respond in kind to any revelation about Giles and Faith possibly being romantically involved.

Also, you're not considering Faith in this. I happen to think Giles would be a very steadying influence for her and not as a watcher.

menomegirl | February 20, 04:49 CET

There is absolutely nothing even vaguely similar between Giles' relationships with either Angel or Spike to Buffy's with Faith.

Try this -- Buffy shows up at Giles' place to show off her new boyfriend Ethan Rayne. THAT is what we're talking about here.

Emmie, bedmates wasn't the line, it was about Faith and her bad sex and Giles being prim and proper as if these were the things that were intersecting.

KingofCretins | February 20, 04:54 CET

There is absolutely nothing even vaguely similar between Giles' relationships with either Angel or Spike to Buffy's with Faith.

Giles had sex with Angel and Spike????? When?

menomegirl | February 20, 04:57 CET

Buffy slept with Spike knowing how much it would destroy Xander, which it did, but Xander forgave her.

Really what's more implausible on first glance? The idea of Faith/Giles hooking up after the end of 'No Future For You' or Xander hooking up with Anya from 'The Wish' or Buffy hooking up with Spike from 'Schoolhard.' Things change and develop and Giles/Faith is a lot easier to digest right now than either of those other two options were if somebody had told you Buffy/Xander were going to hook up with Anya/Spike back in the day.

Wait and see how it turns out, if it turns out at all, then make an opinion on it. Preconceived opinions aren't going to do anyone a world of good.

[ edited by vampmogs on 2009-02-20 05:04 ]

vampmogs | February 20, 05:02 CET

What are you talking about?

Let's do this analytically so we're not wandering about each other's examples. How the hell did I say anything about Giles having sex with Angel or Spike? That would demand Buffy had had sex with Faith.

/ = pseudo-parent child bond.
<-> = good & bad pseudo sibling bond.
[] = sexual relationship.

I formulate first, Giles / Buffy, Buffy <-> Faith, Giles [] Faith.

In order for Giles disapproval of Spike or Angel to matter as a paralle, you'd be asserting that Giles <-> Angel or Giles <-> Spike. Neither of those are correct.

Buffy / Giles, Giles <-> Ethan, Buffy [] Ethan would fit the pattern, though. And it would be just as frickin' offensive to Giles, for good reason, as Giles and Faith being together would be to Buffy.

My goodness, this idea revolts me. What black, foul, Laurell K. Hamilton's-later-works hell would have spawned such a subplot?

[ edited by KingofCretins on 2009-02-20 05:05 ]

KingofCretins | February 20, 05:04 CET

King ofCretins-*sighs*

I said: I would say that Giles did not berate Buffy when she slept with Angel, nor did he berate her when he first found out about Spike. There was nothing about any relationship Giles might have had with either vampire in that statement. You're the one who went there, not me.

I agree that there's a pseudo-parent child bond between Buffy and Giles. But there isn't a pseudo-parent child bond between Giles and Faith.

vampmogs-At the time Buffy intiated a sexual relationship with Spike, I don't think she gave Xander's opinions a single thought. And you're right. Things do change and develop.

[ edited by menomegirl on 2009-02-20 05:21 ]

menomegirl | February 20, 05:13 CET

There doesn't have to be. That's not the issue at all.

KingofCretins | February 20, 05:15 CET

Yes it is. That's why you don't like even the thought of it.

menomegirl | February 20, 05:18 CET

How about this as a reason why it'd be bad - absolutely no romantic story development for this act. Where the heck do we go from Giles and Faith working together where Giles starts as the mentor and they end up as equal partners to having sex? What?

Emmie | February 20, 05:20 CET

Emmie-That's true but so many things in S8 have gone unexplained, I've kind of come to expect the unexpected you know?

menomegirl | February 20, 05:23 CET

I think KoC doens't like the thought of it because of the betrayal factor, and how close Buffy and Giles used to be compared with how apart Buffy and Faith used to be. It's like your mom hooking up with your evil ex-boyfriend. Your mom never was a mom to your evil ex-boyfriend, that's not the point. The point is that she'd be showing how inconsiderate and selfish she is by doing it. And it's hard to believe that Giles would disregard Buffy's feelings that much. It's possible, but just sad to believe it would happen.

vampmogs, you're comparison to xander/anya and spike/buffy pairings are bad examples because yes, it is more believable to see those pairings from the early examples. You don't know barely anything about the characters or what their journeys are. Giles and Faith are characters we know thoroughly well, and have seen go through transformations, so a judgment call on whether or not its believable is much easier to make than a xander/anya one.

If you want a comparison, I would say a better one is Willow and Buffy. It's a relationship that COULD happen and COULD be acceptable, like Faith and Giles, but before all is weird, and involve a betrayal of many people's feelings (dead and alive).

narky | February 20, 05:39 CET

I'm just hoping that Faith and Giles' relationship remains a familial one. The idea of anything else just seems wrong to me.

sarahi | February 20, 05:43 CET

Except with romantic involvement (Buffy/Satsu, Xander/Renee) there's been very obvious build-up. This would be completely out of nowhere when there really wasn't a hint of a romantic connection in NFFY. There's been no build-up here at all, compared to some joking build-up and partly serious Xander/Dawn rapport in the season and some Xander/Buffy buildup with the dream sequence in LWH. This...nope, don't see it at all.

Emmie | February 20, 05:46 CET

Or perhaps a better comparison is if you can imagine that in the middle of season 5, you suddenly found out that Riley was visiting Joyce alone in the hospital a lot without Buffy, because Buffy kept being so damn distant and they both needed comfort. It's possible, but not really plausible. I don't feel exactly the same with about Giles and Faith (Giles is not Buffy's real father, and Faith and Buffy have not had a sexual relationship) but I feel like it's in the same BALLPARK.

narky | February 20, 05:46 CET

Narky gets it. I think for "Veronica Mars" fans the "Keith Mars has sex with Madison Sinclair" thing should illustrate the point. Or, like I said, it's Buffy sleeping with Ethan Rayne -- how does Giles feel about that?

KingofCretins | February 20, 05:46 CET

Add me to the "Raise your hand if 'ew'" list.

And let's reflect on the scene from which that line came.

Knuckleball | February 20, 05:48 CET

narky-Riley/Joyce isn't a good example, since he was seeing Buffy back then. A better example would be Xander/Joyce.

KingofCretins-You're still using the difference in age as an example.

[ edited by menomegirl on 2009-02-20 05:55 ]

menomegirl | February 20, 05:53 CET

I''m sorry, but I don't think the Veronica Mars example is using the age difference to illustrate its point at all...

Also, look at Buffy's reaction to finding out that Giles was simply *working* with Faith, in the NFFY issues. Imagine what her reaction would be, if she were to learn that they were... boffing.

I also agree that the situation would be wrong, simply from a storytelling standpoint. There's no reason for this to suddenly happen, with the way NFFY ended. Another poster mentioned that many things go unexplained in Season 8, but to my knowledge these are almost entirely things that happened prior to Season 8. This, to me, would be akin to that scene in Planet Terror, in which Rose McGowan and Freddy Rodriguez are about to have sex, there's a missing reel, and suddenly the house is in blazes.

I really hope this is just us fans being freakish and taking things way too literally.

Knuckleball | February 20, 06:28 CET

Knuckleball, I hear your ew and raise you a blech. Each to their own and all that, but IMHO this would be the worst Buffyverse romantic pairing since ever.

KingofCretins-You're still using the difference in age as an example.

Isn't that an intrinsic part of the scenario, though? We've got a fatherish person sleeping with his daughterish person's peer-rival-enemy-friend (PREF).* Sure, the daughter and the PREF are both adults now. The dad having a relationship with an adult his daughter's age isn't bad per se. But given the whole PREF situation, for him to have a relationship with this person his daughter's age shows an extraordinary insensitivity to his daughter's feelings. It's callous, and selfish, and just kinda wrong.

That's how I see it, anyway. But given that we don't even know if Giles/Faith happens, maybe I'm getting carried away. :-)

*Tried to think of one word that sums all that up. Failed miserably. (Which means either it's too late for my brain, or the English language is lacking an essential word. [Or possibly both.])

erendis | February 20, 06:32 CET

So what? It's above criticism because of the age difference? It's just one additional factor in the offensiveness.

The core of the problem is that Buffy's surrogate father would be sleeping with one of her closest friends/most bitter rivals all in one. It's nasty beyond the articulation of it. It's Buffy sleeping with Ethan. It's Keith Mars sleeping with Madison Sinclair. It's Jim Walsh sleeping with Kelly Taylor. It's Pa Kent sleeping with Chloe Sullivan or Ma Kent sleeping with Lex Luthor.

KingofCretins | February 20, 06:33 CET

I agree with KingofCretins. The comparison of Buffy/Ethan to Faith/Giles pretty much summed up a lot of why it would be utterly horrific, but I have a further objection to throw on the pile. Even if it was a one night stand that was rarely ever mentioned again and meant pretty much nothing to her, Faith slept with Xander. If Giles is sleeping with her now, that would mean he and Xander have a lover in common. They should not ever have a lover in common. Neither, for that matter, should Joyce and Faith.

Taaroko | February 20, 07:25 CET

Go Giles.

Caroline | February 20, 08:09 CET

Go Faith.

Simon | February 20, 08:19 CET

:-)

Caroline | February 20, 09:09 CET

Buffy was fucking Spike, a guy who kept trying to murder her and her friends. I think Giles and her friends dealt with it. In many respects Giles and Faith would be one of the most normal relationships in BTVS, and I'm absolutely serious.

gossi | February 20, 09:18 CET

Gossi that's exactly what I've been saying. The idea people are so outraged about this is just laughable to me, out of all the various Scooby bed partners this one hardly even compares.

This is no different than Buffy sleeping with Spike which she knew would greatly upset Xander, which he would find wrong on so many levels ect. They got over it, if it does happen Buffy will get over this.

This could turn out bad for so many reasons, poor writing for a start, but it's not so outrageous and horrible as people are making it out to be. I think people are greatly overreacting.

As for the lack of romantic lead-up? Well looking back on old threads I've seen at least one member on Buffyforums at the time there was a romantic vibe between Giles/Faith so maybe they caught something the rest of us missed? Regardless, we haven't seen them for months, possibly at least half a year or even more we were always going to see things when we pop back to Faith/Giles that we had no lead up to, because it's a huge time for characters to change and for things to happen. As long as they explain it well in the issue if it even happens and make it believable there's no issue there.

vampmogs | February 20, 09:42 CET

If there's any Giles/faith stuff in there I'm done with comics. I'm not gonna pay money for that and stay with better fanfiction.

Awesome | February 20, 09:48 CET

How old was Principal Woods? And did he have a first name?

Also the Xander/Anya thing was a bit iffy in terms of age difference. Same for Harmony/Spike and Wes/Illyria would have been jawdropping.

And if Faith and Giles do happen, great drama ahead methinks.

Simon | February 20, 09:56 CET

"Robin" was his first name and I think they said he was ten years older than Buffy.

I think people are overreacting in the sense of, "oh god how could he do this to Buffy it will ruin their friendship forever!" or “he’s so old he’s icky!” cause c’mon, Buffy’s technically a necrophiliac and Willow’s managed to have sex with a “serpent” which is all kinds of weird… but if they're going to do this, they really got to tread carefully.

They have to write it in a way it's believable for both characters and doesn't feel completely out of left field, which is why I'm reserving real judgement until I can read it for myself... if it even happens.

vampmogs | February 20, 10:08 CET

Ironically, the Buffy/Ethan example kind of makes me on board a little bit more. Because I can imagine an instance where that would work, if Ethan worked really hard to reform and they had chemistry together, etc. It'd be dramatic and awful for Giles but I could almost see that happening. Buffy would hate herself, but she'd probably let it happen. But then again that is in her character. I can't really imagine Giles as the "I hate myself but I have to follow my emotions" kind of person. He's got a pretty full grasp.

narky | February 20, 11:05 CET

Got to say that anyone that is having a problem with the Giles Faith thing, you're coming across as ageist.

There is no betrayal. Giles is not Buffy's father. He didn't come into her life till she was 16. He left the continent few years after that and told her she had to stand on her own two feet. And it worked, look at how Buffy takes the leadership in season 7. And here's the big one guys, even if he was her father, he's entitled to sleep with whoever he wants.

When you grow up, you realise your parents are people too. I never need to know that my parents had sex any more than four times (3 boys and girl times). I never need to hear about their exploits or why the idea of dwarfs having sex sends them to the convulsions of laughter, dirty looks and a sly "Do you remember when" and thank god they've never finished that sentence in my presence.

If you take away the history and take the story as a stand alone, you would be dying for them to get together. Faith must feel so alone and the only person in that story who can see the real her is Giles. Let them connect with each other. Let them console each other. Let them comfort each other.

Let them get it on!

missyu | February 20, 11:41 CET

Okay, eew. That would just be too weird! Maybe not as weird as Willow having sex with a serpent but I see Giles as a father figure to Buffy and Faith. It just doesn't seem right! And of course, Buffy would freak! Okay, so Angel and Spike were both tachnically dead and waaay older, but physically, they were (still are) in their 20s.

Giles did looked shocked in No Future for You pt1 when Faith came downstairs with the ballgown on, maybe that was a hint. But tbh, there hasn't been a build up towards a romantic relationship. I just think any Faith/Giles romance would be too awkward.

Shep | February 20, 11:51 CET

BUFFY: Um, maybe I should introduce you again. Faith, this is *Giles*.

FAITH: I see him. If I'd've known they came *that* young and cute, I would've requested a transfer.

Caroline | February 20, 12:03 CET

Nice to see someone else but Buffy getting ragged on for a change :)

About possible Giles/Faith. Slightly "ew" but I can live with that. Buffy/Giles relationship is already pretty much ruined so I don't think that this additional detail will make any real difference.

I am not sure though that we can rely on Giles as necessarily a stabilising/positive influence on Faith. After all, knowing Faith story and situation very well, he sent her on the mission of killing another slayer. To put it cynically, he used her as a tool, chosen because of her previous murderous experience, for his own covert operation. Overall, I don't feel that I know Giles anymore. He became kinda unpredictable for me.

Lince | February 20, 12:38 CET

Gosh, I sure do hope this is based upon the casual reading of one advert. Oh, wait it is. I hope they all don't get together now so we can all reflect on how silly we were.

Also, can I ask that everyone who says "if they do THIS to the characters, I'll stop reading" be bound by law to actually stop reading? That way people will maybe say it less and just get over it.

Sparticus | February 20, 12:40 CET

missyu - ROCK ON!

Sparticus - I have to agree about the law...

Now for my two cents. Those of you going on and on about how Giles is Buffy's this and Buffy's that are forgetting that he is also Rupert Giles, a fairly well rounded and fleshed out character in his own right. He and Buffy have clearly had a falling out. But so what? He was a person with out her, so now he's a person with out her again. He and Faith are both free agents.

If every decision made for the characters in the Buffyverse were made asking "How will this effect Buffy?" "Probably not good." "Oh, well we better not do that then." Then there would be no story. Joss created a bunch of wonderful characters that act independently, fall in love, sometimes act foolish, and in general are pretty human.

If they are sleeping together, which I tend to think they are, then good for them and may they find comfort which god knows they both seek and need.

[ edited by Marion the Geek on 2009-02-20 13:26 ]

Marion the Geek | February 20, 13:11 CET

Got to say that anyone that is having a problem with the Giles Faith thing, you're coming across as ageist.

Then you aren't paying attention to the argument. If Giles was just off trolling universities for buxom coeds, more power to him. The offense here is based in the relationships between Buffy and Giles and Buffy and Faith. It is exactly an insult to Buffy, just as it would be if Buffy had started sleeping with Ethan. Do you think Giles would have been okay with Buffy and Ethan? No, not "Buffy and an older guy" (Wood? Irrelevant. Spike? Irrelevant. Angel? Irrelevant), Buffy and Ethan.

And here's the big one guys, even if he was her father, he's entitled to sleep with whoever he wants.

Sure. But he'd still be perfect for an episode of Jerry Springer if he sleeps with *her*.

As for what it would be for Giles and Faith individually, it would make a mess out of the dynamic that was set up in 8.09. For one thing, Sparticus spots this, it was Giles, not Faith, who needed a steadying influence after "No Future For You". It was Faith who understood the real mission, not Giles. So is everybody just going to flip their pro-PWP argument and say "oh, well, then, Faith would be a stabilizing influence on Giles"?

[ edited by KingofCretins on 2009-02-20 13:26 ]

KingofCretins | February 20, 13:22 CET

Welcome, this is where we jump the gun.

Pretty_Hate_Machine | February 20, 13:25 CET

KoC- By a similar argument, Buffy's continued random smoochies with Angel throughout the series could be considered an insult to Giles, since Angelus tortured him and murdered his girlfriend. Guess Buffy hasn't thought of that.

[ edited by Marion the Geek on 2009-02-20 13:31 ]

Marion the Geek | February 20, 13:30 CET

Not really. Buffy, for her part, has always played along with the idea that Angel and Angelus are as different as Flutie and Snyder. Whether that is an accurate read on Angel, it's what Buffy honestly believes. So, unlike what would be a conscious insult to Buffy, Buffy wouldn't have any insight into how anyone else would feel about Angel that way.

Which, incidentally, actually already happened in Season 3. I recall a certain Watcher taking gross offense at Buffy keeping Angel a secret (and the smoochies that Xander saw that brought them to that argument) *because* of the torture. Thanks for providing an example that, while only loosely parallel, actually supports my point :)

KingofCretins | February 20, 13:35 CET

My point was it was insulting for Giles. But Buffy did it anyway. So Buffy is the only one allowed to behave with disregard for someone else's feelings? Or Giles should have all this insight but you wouldn't expect the same from Buffy? I'm not sure who to feel insulted for.

[ edited by Marion the Geek on 2009-02-20 13:43 ]

Marion the Geek | February 20, 13:40 CET

Buffy did it not realizing how it would effect him or the others, not in spite of it. And, really, is this your argument? That because one person disregards the feelings of the people that are closest to them, everybody has an ongoing license to do that whenever the mood strikes? Why even be friends? If I were that jaded about the friendships in the Buffyverse, I wouldn't even see the point in watching it/reading it.

[ edited by KingofCretins on 2009-02-20 13:45 ]

KingofCretins | February 20, 13:44 CET

I'm saying that people are human and things happen. You seem to be saying that Giles and Faith should regard Buffy's feelings above their own in all things. And yet you seem to have low expectations of Buffy to do the same. If Faith and Giles can find comfort in each other and want to, what Buffy wants shouldn't enter in to it and if she was any kind of friend to either of them, she'd get over it. And I suspect she will. I have higher expectations for her.

Marion the Geek | February 20, 13:50 CET

Roll with the law already. KoC - step off please! You are being really agressive.
Marion & I are simply stating that we do not agree with you.

We do not believe Giles & Buffy to be as close as you seem to think

We are of the opinion that comfort and solice might be the reason behind the hook-up. Not hatred / drama / spite / shock value etc.

Marion, sorry if I've taken you up wrong and I wish you the best in this argument but I'm so out of here!

missyu | February 20, 13:56 CET

For that matter, in your argument, and I am just asking for clarification here, so please don't take offense, is it just Giles who is insulting Buffy by sleeping with Faith?

Is Faith insulting Buffy by sleeping with Giles? Or are we just assuming that as a young and impressionable girl she is being seduced and therefor its only big bad Giles who is at fault?

For anyone who needs the clarification, the words "young and impressionable" are said here in jest because while she may be young, I certainly find Faith adult and cpable of choosing her own sexual partners. She, if no one else, is a master of her own sexuality.

And missyu - you have me right. Thanks ^_^

Marion the Geek | February 20, 13:59 CET

Not in all things, in *this specific* thing.

What is this theme of "finding comfort in each other"? It presumes a number of unpalatable things. First of all, that Faith and Giles live bleak and desperate lives. Second, that jumping into bed is the best (or any productive kind of) way in changing that. Third, that "finding comfort" is a legitimate end to which any behavior can be justified.

This is Xander sleeping with Joyce, it's Buffy sleeping with Ethan, it's Anya sleeping with Ira Rosenberg.

Hopefully this isn't what Krueger was talking about anyway, and that this porn-fantasy plot twist is purely academic. I actually really wanted to see a spinoff about Faith and Giles, and to see it devolve into something so sordid and trite would really be a disappointment.

[ edited by KingofCretins on 2009-02-20 14:03 ]

KingofCretins | February 20, 14:02 CET

Some ideas have occurred...

Reading the interview, and the comments above, I do wonder if the word 'bedmates' is to be taken literally. If it is, then it is, but I wonder if it was intended in the sense of 'stablemates' or as in people that have been thrown together who wouldn't normally have been. I have heard the word used in that context.

If it is to be taken literally, then...OK, that's strange. But I'll still read because either way it would be a very good way of looking at where Buffy's relationship stands with the pair of them in her opinion. Might that be the betrayal that she was crying from the shock of in Anywhere But Here?

(Sorry, I'm not as articulate as I'd like to be.)

171Oak | February 20, 15:05 CET

"Politics make strange bedfellows".

Sometimes that's literally true, but usually it's just a figure of speech.

[ edited by Rowan Hawthorn on 2009-02-20 15:37 ]

Rowan Hawthorn | February 20, 15:37 CET

How old was Principal Woods? And did he have a first name?

It doesn't really matter. He was Buffy's boss when she went on a date with him, which was a bigger problem.

The people who are saying this would hardly be the strangest BtVS relationship are not wrong. Plus poor Giles has been single pretty much forever now. I'd been hoping that'd change for him. I didn't expect it to be Faith, but eh. I'll get over it.

[ edited by Sunfire on 2009-02-20 16:24 ]

Sunfire | February 20, 16:23 CET

171Oak-Perhaps it shouldn't be taken literally. Yet they're already working together, Buffy already knows that. So why call them 'bedmates' if it wasn't meant literally?

menomegirl | February 20, 16:26 CET

What on earth is this all about - is the word "bedmates" just coming from this interview? Because a) it's not actually a quote and b) saying X and Y are unusual bedmates does not imply they're sleeping together - it's just a phrase. On top of there's this quote:

"To a certain degree, these two individuals have come a little closer to the center to find, in the midst of their fight against vampires and demons, a friendship and strange sense of family."

Which clearly lays out the relationship between Giles and Faith.

NotaViking | February 20, 16:37 CET

yeah, I agree. People are getting worked up for nothing.

nyrk | February 20, 16:50 CET

My first instinct is to add my "blech" to the pile and think it wouldn't happen. But then I remember that this is the guy that brought us Cordy/Connor and think "yep, it's gonna happen."

Ew. Blech. I'm with King of Cretins.

Xane | February 20, 16:59 CET

Yeah but Connor/Cordelia truly was cringe-worthy because there was a pseudo-parent child bond there.

Can't really say the same of Faith/Giles.

menomegirl | February 20, 17:11 CET

This argument has really gone off the rails. I still maintain that there's been no set-up for this and *that's* why it would squick me.

Emmie | February 20, 17:50 CET

Cordy/Connor, it must also be said, happened when Cordelia herself wasn't in control. So for her part, there was no ick factor because she didn't make the decision to go through with it. Jasmine did, in an effort to conceive herself and get born. Connor hadn't grown up with Cordy as his mother figure, he was a horny teenager, so he didn't care. Only the audience suffered in that sequence, heh (and maybe Cordy did in "You're Welcome" if she remembered everything her body was used for after she came back from Higher Being land). Most viewers thought it was an awful/bizarre development (me included, but I also had my suspicions that Cordy wasn't herself because she was acting real weird and I couldn't believe that Charisma Carpenter's portrayal of her had gotten that far off track), but when we got an explanation for it it made sense and was justified, plot-wise.

I never even thought of the age difference between Wes and Illyria, wow. Millions of years, wouldn't it have been ? Wes wins for May/December romances/flings in the Buffyverse. Not to mention there're the unique gender mixings, with Illyria apparently being an "it" or a "him" (based on Knox calling Illyria his King) in its former (original?) incarnation, but in a human female body currently.

The folks claiming Buffy would be hurt/freak out...maybe at first, but maybe she'd get over it. And maybe she's been through so much and has such bigger fish to fry and happens to have just had her own bit of sexual experimentation that she just wouldn't give a damn. We can't ask her and, as we're finding, we still don't/can't know her character entirely, so there's no way to predict. It's really impossible to presume for Buffy what her reaction would be. Keep reading and see.

I don't think Faith/Giles will happen, but if it does, I'll see how they handle it before I instantly condemn it as a poor decision for a direction. For all any of us knows, it could turn out to be intriguing, uplifting, tragic, maybe even touching.

Even though she's younger, Faith seems a lot more adult/grown-up than Buffy. Just how she comes off to me, regardless of the fact that she's made the worse choices overall and is the least responsible of the two.

When I started reading the thread, the first few posts, I wasn't "ew", but I was thinking, "that'd be really weird and lose so many readers". But there's no way for me to really know how the majority of the fandom would react. And after reading this whole thread and getting used to the idea, how it might play out, what their dynamic might be like...it doesn't seem like it'd be so weird.

Kris | February 20, 18:21 CET

Sorry, I *want* to join the "it's wrong (assuming this is what happens") group on this but I can't work up the indignation somehow. Maybe it's my politics, or maybe because lately I've been seriously thinking of sending the letter to Charisma Carpenter I never had the nerve to send to Olivia Newton-John.
If this is set in early 2005, i'd imagine Faith is 25 going on 26. Definitely an adult.
And I think as of now my Chidlren of the Dale ficverse has genuinely jumped away from canon, since by this time in my chronology Harmony would be living in seclusion in San Bernardino seekign redemption and Faith's relationship with Doug Potashkin, US Attorney, would be well along . Darn, and there's still so much good stuff in the comics I want to steal for my storyline.

[ edited by DaddyCatALSO on 2009-02-20 18:54 ]

DaddyCatALSO | February 20, 18:48 CET

I'm opposed to a romantic relationship between Faith and Giles not because of age or friendships, but because Giles has been a father figure for so long that a relationship between him and any Slayer or Scooby would seem like incest. True, Faith thought that Giles was handsome when she first met him, but it's been a long time and both Faith and Giles have been through a lot since then. I think that right now Faith could use the father figure more than another boyfriend.

It's true that there have been some inappropriate relationships among the Jossverse characters, but the only thing that ever came close to being so icky was when Connor slept with Cordelia, but Connor was a lot more screwed up at the time than Faith is now. It might actually be a step backward in Faith's character development for her to go to bed with Giles.

sarahi | February 20, 19:53 CET

sarahi-I agree. Giles was a father figure-to Buffy, to Willow, to Xander, to Tara and Anya. But Faith's father-figure wasn't Giles-it was the Mayor. He's the one who found her a place to live and got her out of that seedy motel. He's the one who showed concern over her well-being. Not Giles. (or Wesley either)

menomegirl | February 20, 21:02 CET

No use intellectualizing it. My visceral reaction is Yuck.

cmbackshane | February 20, 22:06 CET

OMG Caroline I was about to say that lol.

Does anyone know what they're going to call the fifth TPB? It's not an arc after all.

Chris the Bloody | February 21, 01:02 CET

^Predators and Prey

nyrk | February 21, 10:21 CET

February 19 2009