"There are three flowers in a vase. The third flower is green."
February 27
2009
Joss Is Featured In Today's Penny Arcade Comic.
"The Whedonite's Dilemmna".
Emelye
| Dollhouse
| 09:51 CET
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Caleb | February 27, 09:54 CET
Sunfire | February 27, 10:11 CET
snot monster from outer space | February 27, 10:13 CET
Ricardo L. | February 27, 10:19 CET
More importantly, when he and Mike make a point about geek culture, it's usually biting in its wit and devastatingly accurate. I see no deviation from that here, even though I do like the show myself. I see an awful lot of comments from people about how they don't like the show but since it's Joss they're watching it anyway. And I get that a lot of that has to do with supporting his work, and I think that's a noble thing to do in its own way. I'd probably be doing the same for awhile if I didn't like the show, and hoping that it got better. But I do think their point about idolization is accurate. Exaggerated of course, but accurate.
I do wonder why he's wearing a toga-thing and has massive arms. is he dressed like Apollo or something?
Sunfire | February 27, 10:28 CET
electricspacegirl | February 27, 10:28 CET
http://www.penny-arcade.com/2009/2/27/
[ edited by Septimus on 2009-02-27 19:35 ]
Septimus | February 27, 10:33 CET
Sunfire | February 27, 10:39 CET
savagenapkin | February 27, 10:42 CET
zeitgeist | February 27, 10:50 CET
This is Whedonite backlash stuff, and best disregarded.
snot monster from outer space | February 27, 10:56 CET
That said, I love Dollhouse, so this isn't so much a dilemma for me.
[ edited by Jobo on 2009-02-27 20:06 ]
sumogrip | February 27, 11:04 CET
jkalderash | February 27, 11:29 CET
I think this is exactly why I'm watching. Though I don't see much to interest me yet, I have reason to think it will become more compelling.
redeem147 | February 27, 11:30 CET
Also, given enough space/money, I would consider building a statue of Joss.
adzmodeus | February 27, 11:32 CET
They have all said (minus tim maybe) that the show kicks off around episode 6.
This means I can wait it out.
Allow me to elaborate a tiny bit. This show is way better then 95% of television. I'm not crazy, it is entertaining but it doesn't mean that I'm 100% sold yet.
Again once more, good show, but not up on my favorites yet, will it be? Probably.
Stargyn | February 27, 11:45 CET
Invisible Green | February 27, 11:47 CET
phong | February 27, 11:56 CET
Don't build it out of mud. Those have a high rate of accidental decapitation.
hacksaway | February 27, 11:56 CET
I agree that the biggest Joss fans (including me) will continue to keep watching because he's earned our trust to deliver a good product. And I have faith that it'll deliver, even though I also feel that the premise doesn't really intrigue me much.
There's the hope that people are continuing to discover the show and as long as the remaining episodes are good they'll want to keep watching.
Okkay | February 27, 12:13 CET
/You wouldn't believe the fuss the neighbours made.
//It's not as if she was naked.
///Okay, she was naked at first.
zz9 | February 27, 12:13 CET
So far I liked all Joss' work. And I like Dollhouse too. I'm going to enjoy it all the time I can. If there is a lot of people like me, the show will last long. If there isn't a lot of people like me, the show will not do it.
This is how things work.
Urui | February 27, 12:15 CET
However; and I know it's blasphemy to say it here but if Dollhouse got canceled in it's current form I wouldn't miss it. I'm not wishing harm on it by any means. I'm glad other people are enjoying it more than I am. I'm going to keep watching because it's Whedon but had any other name been attached to this show I'd have already stopped watching it. And I know everyone keeps saying "Oh give it time it will get better" and while that might be true I've loved most Whedon shows from day one so this show has me more than a little worried. And sure a lot of shows do get better over time but given my current lukewarm view of the show it'd have to get better a pretty significant margin for it to become must see tv for me and honestly I can't think of a single show I've been this ambivalent about becoming suddenly amazing. Though "Sons of Anarchy" this past summer went from "meh" to "It's actually pretty good" but at no point would I say it was mind blowing.
Again I'm not hating on people that do like it more than I do, however I do think some of you shouldn't go around throwing all the hate at the PA crew because they don't like as much as you do.
war_machine | February 27, 12:37 CET
I watched the second episode even though I didn't much like the first episode because Joss has earned my loyalty.
I liked the second episode much better than the first episode and thought it was a shame they couldn't have started with a two-hour opener. I expect to like the third episode even more. I will stick with it until we get through 6 - 13 because Joss has earned my loyalty.
I did not love Buffy until sometime in the second season and I'm glad I didn't quit after the first couple of episodes. I think Firefly is the only show I have loved from the first episode and I really don't expect that any other show can live up to that standard. In my ideal world, shows would get a full season to get going and build an audience, but I guess that's why I don't run a tv network.
I'm glad I don't love Dollhouse yet. Any show I love early on lives a short life. I should have done Joss a favor and waited until midway through the second season to start watching.
Sarrava | February 27, 12:46 CET
(and being "hipster cool" is dumb).
BrownCoat_Tabz | February 27, 12:48 CET
It's not blasphemy, I've read that same sentiment from someone here in comments, chat, or email at least once a day. It is, however, inconsiderate to actively root for its demise in front of folks who dig it :), which you aren't doing, so fair play. I don't really see a lot of hate directed at PA in the thread, either. They are "of our tribe".
zeitgeist | February 27, 12:52 CET
However...
The blog post almost reads as if he resents the rest of us for having that trust/loyalty/faith in Joss. There's so much knee-jerk anger. Look, I know the pilot wasn't awesome. It's problematic at best, but then, most pilots are. The pilot for Lost was, I'm afraid, a fluke. An anomaly. Yes, it's true, you can't please everyone all the time, but there's no reason to pitch a tantrum when one doesn't immediately get their way.
There's something about the way the post is worded too that feels like opinion being stated as fact, to me. That's unfortunate. But really, after two episodes, he's seriously going to declare, "Dollhouse is not an enjoyable television program"? Seriously? That seems to imply that one gets nothing, absolutely nothing out of those 2 episodes. There are no good performances. The sets are lousy. It's not shot well. The direction is a mess. The dialogue is stilted and lazy. The music and effects are bad, too. Even those clothes are an eye sore. That's what I get from such a blanket statement, and that's just sad. I mean, if he really feels that way, fine. Say that. That's what a good review is: You state your like or dislike of something and then lay out your reasons why.
But hey, that's just me and my opinion. The comic itself is still funny, and I guess that's what really counts. :)
kungfubear | February 27, 12:57 CET
wonderflonium | February 27, 13:02 CET
The only force I can see behind those criticisms lies in the fact that Dollhouse unlike Buffy and Angel, might not have time to develop. That said, I do believe Joss when he says that the show finds its way in episode 6. So if worst comes to worst we'll have half a great season
[ edited by Let Down on 2009-02-27 22:04 ]
Let Down | February 27, 13:03 CET
kungfubear | February 27, 13:10 CET
Amen. It was interesting seeing those old Buffy season 1 reviews being dredged up the other day. After seeing those, it seems to me that none of Joss's shows have been very well received at first. People seem to forget that Firefly took quite a beating from more than a few critics.(Admittedly, I haven't seen any Angel reviews from the time but I'd be surprised if they were that good after the first two episodes)
Let Down | February 27, 13:10 CET
From the consistent praise I often hear of the original pilot script "Echo", I sometimes wonder if it was a case of Joss and the network mutually going in and trying to fix something that wasn't actually broken in the first place, thereby breaking it, sort of. Then again, I haven't seen it/read it myself, so what do I know?
It seems like a fair assumption to me given that seemingly everyone praised the script or finished product for 'Echo' and given how much better 'Serenity' is than 'The Train Job'. I'd be surprised if most of us don't end up thinking that 'Echo' was better than 'Ghost' (that's not a diss of 'Ghost' which I loved). The more interesting question to me is whether Fox was right about the changes being necessary to get viewers. Maybe they were, or maybe they weren't giving enough credit to viewers. At the least, I think the well publicised 'production difficulties' contributed to the show's low ratings
[ edited by Let Down on 2009-02-27 22:19 ]
Let Down | February 27, 13:15 CET
On the other hand, I understand people's frustration, because I want so badly for it to get better sooner rather than later. And right now I'm very glad it is on before Battlestar, because then I can treat Battlestar like a nice satisfying dessert at the end of a slightly undercooked meal.
chickenbird | February 27, 13:18 CET
@chickenbird - I rather like that uncooked meal analogy. I may use it in my next Dollhouse commentary.
kungfubear | February 27, 13:30 CET
Kungfubear, the 'I was there' was slightly amusing but it felt like a bit of a copout to me. Instead of making a joke at the expense of the exposition, why not just do smoother exposition in the first place? Anyway, it's not like I hate those scenes; I just it's good to remember the flaws in the early episodes of those shows while we're blasting Dollhouse after two episodes
Let Down | February 27, 13:36 CET
*edit for spelling
[ edited by thatweirdgirl on 2009-02-27 23:27 ]
thatweirdgirl | February 27, 14:26 CET
Still, someone better put PETA on alert, as I have every reason to believe there will be an awful lot of crow consumption come Episode 13.
missb | February 27, 14:40 CET
kungfubear | February 27, 14:42 CET
I think a lot of people are going to be eating their words when this show starts getting really kick ass.
I don't think that sort of attitude helps though.
Topdeck | February 27, 15:08 CET
I thought the pilot easily the best first-aired-episode of a Joss show, and thought it much more thought-provoking than ep 2 (which I also enjoyed, but not quite as much).
snot monster from outer space | February 27, 15:19 CET
Also, while I like Dollhouse, I fundamentally agree with the point that one should not watch the show out of loyalty to Joss if one does not like it. That just doesn't make much sense (and, unless your Nielsen household, it's not like you're doing Joss any good by watching it). Of course, one SHOULD watch the show out of a hope or belief based on past experience with Joss that it will get better (which is different from loyalty, and is the sentiment I see expressed more often by people who are watching but not really liking).
Septimus | February 27, 15:29 CET
--Variety
--National Post (Canada)
And while I've previewed that, too, and I enjoyed it, it's hard to unlearn what I already know about the characters, and how they got aboard the renegade space transport ship Serenity. But of all the new shows I've seen this fall, this is the one I most expect to improve. Whedon's history, with both "Buffy" and "Angel," is to course-correct his shows until the second season, when they blossom in a big way. Viewers should be patient; so should Fox
--Daily News
--Toronto Sun
--Toronto Star
--Boston Globe
...
Whedon gets credit for trying something new, or at least mixing two things old. But the show lacks any trace of the humor and subtlety that makes Buffy so much fun. Friday nights on Fox is the TV equivalent of the edge of the galaxy, and if the strikingly more compelling Dark Angel died there, there's little hope for Firefly.
--Philadelphia Inquirer
--Montreal Gazette
...
This tripe is set 500 years in the future and six years after a bloody civil war that left much of the galaxy in ruins.
...
None of it works, and "Firefly" looks like the "Ishtar" of television.
The early buzz on "Firefly" wasn't good. Fox asked Whedon to shoot a new opener that was more action-packed. The original two-hour pilot is scheduled to air later this year. That move quickly slapped "Firefly" with the dreaded "troubled show" label.
That hasn't kept fans from buzzing about the series on the Internet. The show already has at least six Web sites _ and it hasn't even premiered yet.
Perhaps "Firefly" will get better over time. Right now, it just looks lost in space.
--Cox News Service
Joss Whedon ("Buffy the Vampire Slayer," "Angel") may think he knows what he's doing with this oddly conceived sci-fi/Old West outing set 500 years in the future. If so, clue the rest of us in. The first episode's stick-figure characters include a laughable, resoundingly German despot who apparently is meant to be taken seriously. Are we all supposed to be dummkopfs?
--Dallas Morning News
ETA: I find it interesting to see comments here that suggest a very similar debate going on about Firefly then as there is about Dollhouse now: i.e., is it worth sticking around to see if it improves.
Once again, though, the takeaway is that people have just forgotten how mixed its reception was. I'd say that none of Joss's shows have been "critical darlings" out of the box.
[ edited by snot monster from outer space on 2009-02-28 01:00 ]
snot monster from outer space | February 27, 15:58 CET
I find this line particularly germane to the discussions of Dollhouse. It's a little confusing, though--Train Job was a pretty funny episode.
sumogrip | February 27, 16:07 CET
ET*fix stupid typos...
[ edited by QingTing on 2009-02-28 01:19 ]
QingTing | February 27, 16:08 CET
Yeah. I think the "two frickin' episodes!" thing covers a lot of this.
But "Train Job" wasn't a great episode, and while it has some jokes, they're mostly (with a couple of big exceptions) not all that funny and it sure as hell isn't "subtle." It wasn't as interesting or rich as either "Ghost" or "Target."
snot monster from outer space | February 27, 16:12 CET
Why...thank you very much.
snot monster from outer space | February 27, 16:14 CET
We were supposed to take Niska seriously?
WilliamTheB | February 27, 16:15 CET
Septimus | February 27, 16:16 CET
QingTing | February 27, 16:20 CET
But thanks for posting those reviews, snot. I knew they hadn't been good, yet they're oddly comforting now. (Except that bad reviews make people not watch.)
[ edited by hacksaway on 2009-02-28 01:24 ]
hacksaway | February 27, 16:21 CET
snot monster from outer space | February 27, 16:24 CET
WilliamTheB | February 27, 16:30 CET
Well...I understand the comfort, but there's also a horrible sense of "history is repeating itself...all the way to cancellation."
The infuriating thing is knowing that most of the people who bitched about the early Firefly have spent the last seven years railing at Fox for their stupid shortsightedness in canceling what was "obviously" a brilliant series. I'm sure the same thing will happen with Dollhouse if that gets canceled.
snot monster from outer space | February 27, 16:30 CET
Dana5140 | February 27, 16:37 CET
I wonder if, in the history of the 'verse, there has ever been a critical assessment I disagree with more? Hang on a sec... lemme check.
Nope.
Tin Ear Tom | February 27, 16:39 CET
Hmm. This isn't a million miles away from my preferences -though I would upgrade Angel to warm/occasionally bubbling over, and Dollhouse to "interested, and enjoying the scripts and acting."
I'm currently persuaded by my own theory that it's the genre - mystery, - that doesn't quite work for me, rather than the episodes or the premise. I don't really like being bombarded with lots of questions from the off. But, y'know, still enjoying it and will persist. And not "because it's Joss," but for the elegant "earned loyalty" formula described by Jobo above.
SoddingNancyTribe | February 27, 17:18 CET
cabri | February 27, 17:19 CET
Seriously, this was totally of the real snort-laugh variety - thanks, snot monster from outer space.
Not to be re-cycling too much, but you might like this, then - which your text message brought to mind:
the link's to my post, but do read the whole thread, if you have a moment.
QuoterGal | February 27, 17:27 CET
Leaf | February 27, 17:55 CET
Maratanos | February 27, 19:48 CET
zeitgeist | February 27, 19:57 CET
As others have posted, pretty much this same thing has happened to Joss before, specifically with Firefly. It's probably BECAUSE of Firefly that the internet is going a little wacky trying to pile on Dollhouse, but just looking at Whedon's record, it takes a while for his shows to catch on, and in my opinion, the first two episodes were pretty darn good TV.
Mutant Enemy has never done a bad show. I don't know why people are so eager to hate on this one.
archon | February 27, 20:47 CET
madmolly | February 27, 20:47 CET
I sorta wish I had gotten their signatures at Comic-Con, but I was uncomfortable enough asking Jan Duuresma and Georges Jeanty for sigs, and its not like I had any Penny-Arcade swag.
SteppeMerc | February 27, 23:34 CET
Let Down | February 28, 00:18 CET
[ edited by Septimus on 2009-03-05 14:56 ]
Septimus | March 05, 05:56 CET
Sunfire | March 05, 07:35 CET
The show is leaving me seriously cold, unless it picks up significantly soon I'll be ditching it. It's a pretty show, don't get me wrong - but the arc needs a bit of a speed boost, and a lot of the acting leaves a fair bit to be desired.
This said, it's only a 13 episode season right? So I figure it's worthwhile to hang in there for a little bit longer.
BobReturns | March 08, 07:48 CET