(SPOILER)
Discuss the third episode of Dollhouse.
This one's called 'Stage Fright'.
Probably best if you don't mention spoilers for future episodes in this discussion thread.
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Oh well. I'm much more excited about this episode than I was, now that I've watched the four clips you linked to earlier. Well, I watched two of them. But especially the bit with Sierra, I liked. J-Mo in the Dollhouse...
sumogrip | February 28, 01:54 CET
korkster | February 28, 02:25 CET
Emmie | February 28, 02:48 CET
yellowcrayon | February 28, 03:02 CET
Heh -- "I'll keep that in mind the next time I'm getting bow-hunted." Boyd owns this show.
[ edited by KingofCretins on 2009-02-28 03:05 ]
KingofCretins | February 28, 03:03 CET
whedon is GOD | February 28, 03:09 CET
fuffybaby18 | February 28, 03:10 CET
And Amy should be in the opening credits, I say!
Chrisham2 | February 28, 03:11 CET
josswhedonaddict | February 28, 03:12 CET
/Kinda funky platform boots, tho.
Eric_Curtis | February 28, 03:12 CET
josswhedonaddict | February 28, 03:13 CET
*snark* Scowly babies.
Emmie | February 28, 03:13 CET
whedon is GOD | February 28, 03:14 CET
KingofCretins | February 28, 03:16 CET
Emmie | February 28, 03:17 CET
josswhedonaddict | February 28, 03:18 CET
hbojo | February 28, 03:19 CET
whedon is GOD | February 28, 03:20 CET
thisyearsgirl | February 28, 03:21 CET
Chrisham2 | February 28, 03:21 CET
KingofCretins | February 28, 03:21 CET
whedon is GOD | February 28, 03:22 CET
Eric_Curtis | February 28, 03:23 CET
whedon is GOD | February 28, 03:23 CET
I just started shipping Boyd and Amy's character. Maybe that's it ;)
redeem147 | February 28, 03:23 CET
KingofCretins | February 28, 03:24 CET
whedon is GOD | February 28, 03:25 CET
This is interesting... if Adelle hadn't given the order, I would think this was a set up.
HA! That's the hotel they used for Hyperion exteriors.
[ edited by KingofCretins on 2009-02-28 03:27 ]
KingofCretins | February 28, 03:26 CET
yellowcrayon | February 28, 03:27 CET
josswhedonaddict | February 28, 03:27 CET
thisyearsgirl | February 28, 03:28 CET
Litwall | February 28, 03:29 CET
whedon is GOD | February 28, 03:29 CET
Emmie | February 28, 03:30 CET
[ edited by Septimus on 2009-02-28 03:33 ]
Septimus | February 28, 03:30 CET
Okay. I give in. I'm hooked.
redeem147 | February 28, 03:33 CET
KingofCretins | February 28, 03:33 CET
JerrodBalzer | February 28, 03:33 CET
Emmie | February 28, 03:34 CET
thisyearsgirl | February 28, 03:34 CET
Emmie | February 28, 03:37 CET
I just lol'd.
thegingerpire | February 28, 03:39 CET
KingofCretins | February 28, 03:39 CET
Emmie | February 28, 03:41 CET
Um... wouldn't Sierra's handler have blown that guy's head off and stuffed it down the neckhole by now?
KingofCretins | February 28, 03:43 CET
Chrisham2 | February 28, 03:44 CET
thegingerpire | February 28, 03:47 CET
josswhedonaddict | February 28, 03:50 CET
fuffybaby18 | February 28, 03:51 CET
[ edited by ricetxpeaches on 2009-02-28 20:26 ]
ricetxpeaches | February 28, 03:51 CET
BuffyGroupie | February 28, 03:53 CET
KingofCretins | February 28, 03:53 CET
KingofCretins | February 28, 03:59 CET
whedon is GOD | February 28, 03:59 CET
What's with the nod?
hbojo | February 28, 03:59 CET
pat32082 | February 28, 03:59 CET
Septimus | February 28, 04:00 CET
yellowcrayon | February 28, 04:00 CET
BuffyGroupie | February 28, 04:01 CET
Canonical | February 28, 04:01 CET
AMAZING episode.
JustNick | February 28, 04:02 CET
Emmie | February 28, 04:02 CET
Chrisham2 | February 28, 04:03 CET
josswhedonaddict | February 28, 04:04 CET
Emmie | February 28, 04:04 CET
Buffyfantic | February 28, 04:04 CET
Jed and Maurissa did a great job with this one. I really wasn't sure where the story was going to take Echo.
[ edited by Lioness on 2009-02-28 04:06 ]
Lioness | February 28, 04:06 CET
Septimus | February 28, 04:07 CET
Also, got to love all the funny in this episode....scowly babies!
Scaniano | February 28, 04:09 CET
That said, there were some good moments in it - especially that very last moment between Echo and Sierra.
Nebula1400 | February 28, 04:13 CET
Squishy | February 28, 04:14 CET
Scraggles | February 28, 04:16 CET
Very big plot hole, methinks, and, no, not sweet homage to Day of the Jackal so much as derivative...also of The Manchurian Candidate.
And, yes, more than a tad too much A Very Special Dollhouse.
That said, I liked it, liked what it portends, but...I really haven't connected to it yet.
Chris inVirginia | February 28, 04:16 CET
Nebula1400 | February 28, 04:17 CET
Sort of glad that they did away with the conceit that Enver Gjokaj wasn't playing a Doll so soon. Still don't get how Victor is able to freely talk about a theoretical Dollhouse without getting confused and start phoning home, as was implied when Echo was Ellie Penn.
John Darc | February 28, 04:17 CET
Tymen | February 28, 04:18 CET
Chris inVirginia | February 28, 04:19 CET
redeem147 | February 28, 04:21 CET
Maratanos | February 28, 04:21 CET
BuffyGroupie | February 28, 04:23 CET
josswhedonaddict | February 28, 04:25 CET
Sierra was not a protector. They sent her out as bait so the stalker's attention would be diverted. It was the plan for her to get kidnapped so they could follow him and then take him out.
Animal Mother | February 28, 04:28 CET
Taaroko | February 28, 04:30 CET
Squishy | February 28, 04:31 CET
marymary | February 28, 04:37 CET
me .showing junk.
OH! Da' funny is here!
Wilhelm | February 28, 04:39 CET
I was 50/50 on the pilot, and Target had a few little problems, but I thought it was pretty good. This was just bad television.
[...edited...Sorry, I should take a breather before posting...]
Supposedly it's supposed to start getting good around episode 6, and I hope it does. I don't mean to be ungrateful, but damn.
[ edited by phong on 2009-02-28 05:15 ]
phong | February 28, 04:40 CET
Southie. Hee hee.
I so hope that was a voice over singing for Eliza. Hometown girl or not I'll have to hate her if she can sing too. ;p
AngelDiva | February 28, 04:40 CET
I liked the pop star stuff the best.
[ edited by Riker on 2009-02-28 04:46 ]
Riker | February 28, 04:41 CET
Vinity | February 28, 04:43 CET
Animal Mother | February 28, 04:45 CET
I don't mind so much the lack of the snappy dialogue anymore, as long as the ideas Joss is presenting continue to intrigue me. It seems a 'deeper' show, somehow.
CMarlowe | February 28, 04:50 CET
Phong - consider yourself warned re: committee of idiots, that's over the line.
zeitgeist | February 28, 04:52 CET
I thought this episode was a snoozer. The nod at the end was by far the best part of the episode. And let's face it, it was a nod.
karosurly | February 28, 05:17 CET
WheelsOfJoy | February 28, 05:17 CET
I find myself wishing the engagements were things that happened mostly in the background and the characters just talked about them. The most extreme example of this that I can think of is The West Wing. But also with Buffy, the show is mostly about how the Scoobies as a group are dealing with the monster, not about the monster itself.
I have gotten to the point where I'm able to buy into whatever character Echo is programmed to be even though I know it's fake, but I still long for those moments where she doesn't behave as she should. And I'm sure there'll be more and more of that as time goes on. Luckily, this episode had that head-shake at the end, which was the strongest indication so far that Echo is remembering.
And the engagements aren't all bad; I actually thought this one got good once Echo hit the diva with the chair and started doing things her own way, but it took a long time to get there. And last week's engagement was pretty good throughout. The first one was okay. And they've all been related to the mission statement of the show. I just think they'd be even better if, in addition to all that, they involved characters we cared about. So it ends up feeling like a missed opportunity.
[ edited by gomtuu on 2009-02-28 05:19 ]
gomtuu | February 28, 05:17 CET
I think I have the formula down, and I hope it works. Weekly stuff to grab the new viewer's eye -- lots of creamy plot goodness mostly in the back for the hardcores.
Dr. Saunders: "She wasn't always the best." No... I'm betting Saunders was.
Unfortunately... we now know that someone that runs the Dollhouse is very, very not nice: they tried to have Ballard killed. This is above and beyond "we're humanitarians but only kinda sorta." There is a large moral difference between Echo killing to defend her life and Victor sending Ballard to his death.
Interesting times, indeed.
Andrea 2s1 | February 28, 05:17 CET
And yet all of the actual stuff pertaining to the Dollhouse was great. Topher gets more snappy dialogue, Boyd is still an awesome guy, and Dr. Saunders just gets more and more interesting. I continue to enjoy Ballard's snooping, and Lubov...wow. Enver Gjokaj is such a presence on this show. He brings his role to life. The reveal that he's an Active was brilliant. I've known about Victor all along, but I thought that he'd been written out of the show, or at least that Lubov would end up getting mind-wiped. I never even fancied the idea that he was already an Active. Great stuff.
Oh, and despite my dislike of the pop star stuff, I loved how Echo turned the tables because she instinctively knew that Sierra was her friend. And of course the little shake of the head at the end. That shit excites me, like, a lot, for some reason.
This would've been a really good episode if the whole Rayna plot hadn't felt so uneven and half-baked. Coming from Jed and Maurissa, I've gotta admit, I'm a little disappointed.
But holy God, next week's looks fantastic!
UnpluggedCrazy | February 28, 05:18 CET
Really? I was certain they were talking about Alpha.
gomtuu | February 28, 05:21 CET
UnpluggedCrazy | February 28, 05:22 CET
I guess I'll have to watch it again. (Oh noes!)
Edit: I still don't see it. Maybe it's just because Amy is too pretty and I can't concentrate.
[ edited by gomtuu on 2009-02-28 05:36 ]
gomtuu | February 28, 05:25 CET
Firefly Flanatic | February 28, 05:26 CET
John Darc | February 28, 05:32 CET
I'm pretty sure it was really Eliza singing. The tone and inflection sounds exactly like her voice.
[ edited by SteveJ2008 on 2009-02-28 05:35 ]
SteveJ2008 | February 28, 05:34 CET
WheelsOfJoy | February 28, 05:37 CET
pat32082 | February 28, 05:41 CET
I think what was over the line was comparing Joss and the writers to Garfield's writers. That was quite a insult to Joss himself.
CMarlowe | February 28, 05:50 CET
And next week's looks to be great as well. I hope the upward climb continues. This show already has earned its place among Joss's other works, to me.
sumogrip | February 28, 05:54 CET
zeitgeist | February 28, 06:03 CET
I don't care about the engagements. I don't sympathize with or despise the people who pay for the engagements. The reason for the engagements has little connection to anything or anyone; they just fall out of the sky (yes, the singer talking about how she's manufactured does ironically parallel Echo's situation, but that's the reason the writer invented the engagement, not the reason the engagement happens in the fictional universe).
I don't care about the people who run the Dollhouse. They're not good, they're not evil, they're not in enough conflict with anyone, and they're not striving for anything (money is not an interesting enough goal). We're supposed to accept that they run things just because, logistically, someone has to. I need to know their motives beyond that.
The things that I desperately want to care about -- interactions between recurring characters -- are separated by so many layers of insulation and time that they generate little inertia. Adelle is in a office, describing what happened. Boyd is in a van, listening to what's happening. Topher is at a computer, watching a brain map of what's happening. Echo is off doing something that she'll mostly forget later. Ballard is in another TV show entirely. Lasagna Girl is looking across a hallway or through a window. Characters are not interacting. They're watching and telling stories about other people interacting! And then, at the very end, Echo and Sierra intentionally avoid interacting. It's all a little bit too frustrating.
Perhaps I'm spoiled by watching all of Joss's other TV shows on DVD. Maybe watching TV shows in real time requires a different level of patience?
To end on an upbeat note with the moments I liked:
I loved the "Buffy righteousness" moment when Echo told the singer she had to care about someone other than herself and save Sierra. I have been waiting for more moments like this. Joss's other stories are filled with these moments.
I liked that Echo made up her own solution and exceeded expectations.
I liked the line the singer said: "God put this voice in me
and forgot to make it mine". That's good stuff.
Intelligent Calcium | February 28, 06:10 CET
A minor criticism: some of Eliza's fights -- the hitting scene and the pushing scene (more details would be spoilery) -- seemed poorly staged and fake. Especially when compared to Ballard's totally boss fight scene.
Overall though, awesome episode. I see progress, and it looks like more is coming...
Squishy | February 28, 06:30 CET
AngelDiva | February 28, 06:31 CET
UnpluggedCrazy | February 28, 06:32 CET
Maratanos | February 28, 06:35 CET
Squishy | February 28, 06:39 CET
SteveJ2008 | February 28, 06:47 CET
UnpluggedCrazy | February 28, 06:55 CET
Strangely, I'm not completely sold yet on Dichen's performance as Sierra. She's the weak link to me so far. I don't know what it is, but something just seems a bit "off". Hopefully that will change as she gets more screen time.
SteveJ2008 | February 28, 06:58 CET
[ edited by Squishy on 2009-02-28 07:04 ]
Squishy | February 28, 07:03 CET
Awesome.
hacksaway | February 28, 07:09 CET
Questions for the group. Now that we've seen how the original pilot was broken up over three episodes, how does it leave you feeling? To me it feels like we got one Joss episode spaced out with some stuff to try and pull in new typical Fox voters. I think we just have to accept it as necessary, Fox won't keep this show on the air with Buffy's numbers.
The spinklings of funny, the fact that it's more engaging than any of the other procedurals on right now, and most especially those moments where Echo goes off script are gonna keep me watching.
rocknjosie | February 28, 07:10 CET
Mort | February 28, 07:13 CET
It looks like I may be the only person who enjoys the blank slate part of the show.
Still love Victor's chin, and that's still my issue to work through.
And Lasagna girl just continues to warm my heart. She is so freaking adorable. Adorable, I say!
It's sad there are only 3 weeks left of triple threat fridays as I continue to love Terminator and Battlestar Galactica is my favorite show ever. And OT as it is, tonight's BSG may be my favorite episode of the entire show. So good, so, so good.
theMidnighter | February 28, 07:17 CET
Tonya J | February 28, 07:23 CET
The show is improving every week. I wasn't sure if Lubov/Victor was still going to be an active so definitely smiled at the reveal/confirmation. Loved seeing Sierra so much along with the rest of the cast. its finally starting to feel like an ensemble! :)
I think the freedom song ending scene at the end has me almost hooked on this :P
Rhodey | February 28, 07:23 CET
I watched it with a couple dozen people on the tail end of a BSG viewing meetup at a BSG-friendly cafe. Some friends of the owner had come buy and ended up watching Dollhouse along with us. The lady sitting next to me had never seen it before and wasn't even paying attention when it started, but at the conclusion, she was applauding. They were all like, "what is this show called? Is it new?"
Hopefully a good sign. Fingers crossed.
BTW, a sign how far TSCC has declined is that this is a roomfull of serious sci-fi geeks, and TSCC comes between BSG and Dollhouse, yet nobody watches TSCC while it's on. In contrast, when Dollhouse comes on it's dim the lights and turn off cell phones time.
Edit to add: Did anyone else think of Mal when Ballard got all badass after geting shot? I flashed on Out of Gas and the BDM when that happened.
[ edited by AlanD on 2009-02-28 07:45 ]
AlanD | February 28, 07:42 CET
The first episode about the kidnapped little girl who might get abused (and the negotiator who had been) was really about how not all the actives were volunteers, some were kidnapped, and all are abused.
The second episode with the 'Most Dangerous Game' was about how all the actives are being forced to play out the games (many of them dangerous physically, but all could be dangerous emotionally) others set for them.
And tonight with Echo being body guard mirrored Boyd guarding her, as well as everything about prisons and freedom.
I feel that all of this is very playful and interesting and a lot of fun. I'm really loving it.
embers | February 28, 07:47 CET
Re UnpluggedCrazy: Cylons are very strong, yes? Wouldn't boxing them be, like, a terrible idea?
Mercenary | February 28, 07:50 CET
Madhatter | February 28, 07:53 CET
Plus, Eliza can actually sing. My 14-year-old daughter pointed out that it wasn't the most difficult, range-stretching tune... but it was ineffably Eliza's voice. I've since resumed work on the modest shrine in my attic, with photos and candles and one of the bikini tops from "The New Guy." (Kill me now.)
I was concerned the episodes leading up to "Man in the Street" would be mere filler. Stupid mortal, me.
Tin Ear Tom | February 28, 07:57 CET
There was a lot of inter-Dollhouse interaction that really added to the intrigue.
My favorite parts were "scowly babies" and the "Mama Rose" lines.
I was also pleasantly suprised by Eliza's singing. She doesn't have a *great* voice, but it was solid and worked for the episode. I'm definitely going to have that 'freedom' song in my head all weekend.
Did anyone else think the song that opened the show sounded just like "Womanizer"?
mle | February 28, 08:01 CET
John Darc | February 28, 08:05 CET
I especially loved seeing a few more layers to Adelle's character, and Sierra as the star-struck number one fan was gooey cuteness. I was anticipating that Lubov is Victor/Victor is Lubov from all of the early cast photos, but the way they revealed it caught me by surprise. Very, very nicely done.
I wish they could do something more with Tahmoh. His character, so far, bores me to tears.
But they made up for him this time with that little head shake at the very end.... Oh man, this is getting GOOD! The standalone format for the engagements is ok, but these little nuggets of the developing season arc are what's keeping me interested.
Next Friday can't come soon enough!
kasadilla | February 28, 08:06 CET
Riker | February 28, 08:08 CET
But do you know what I love already? Enver Gjokaj.
Darwinfox | February 28, 08:11 CET
The One True b!X | February 28, 08:14 CET
sumogrip | February 28, 08:17 CET
And I still don't understand why the organization would rent out the dolls. I would think the risks too great, the benefit of having a secret in-house army too tempting.
fanbuoyant | February 28, 08:23 CET
I find it interesting that apparently not only can Topher make people, but store them and their memories. This seems obvious, but its not like Topher keeps on creating Lubov... he picks up from where he was before (other wise he would be a bit confused with Paul). Makes me wonder how Topher gets around the fact that Lubov would have big holes in his memory. Or does he put Lubov on a sort of 'sandbox mode' for back of a better word where he continues to run a normal life, making memories in his computer? I'm probably thinking too into this though.
Terminator wasn't really doing it for me until the end (though I really liked the John and Cameron stuff). The reason why is that I couldn't fathom Sarah, who was in a nut house, would check into any sort of clinic. But the way it turned out made more sense. Really looking forward to next episode, which looks more like a Cameron centric one.
SteppeMerc | February 28, 08:29 CET
JerrodBalzer | February 28, 08:36 CET
cheesefan | February 28, 08:41 CET
Litwall | February 28, 08:45 CET
Last week, the only characters who had something the audience could hook into were Boyd and Echo, which was followed up nicely, by the way, with Topher noticing Boyd's new attitude. This week the individuals in Dollhouse management got some meat put on their bones. Dr. Saunders is commencing to interest me. Topher got more colors, as did Adelle. Even Security Guy seems a little less generic. I still consider Paul Ballard a weak link, though I liked his atom bomb speech and his fight. Did he just kill that helpless surviving Russian without a qualm? Yikes. And yay Lasagna Girl for bringing the warmth again.
I don't completely agree with Intelligent Calcium that characters are not interacting. Dr. Saunders talking to Boyd about Echo, for example, is showing more than them talking about someone else - it's building the beginnings of a relationship between them.
There was more of the funny or at least amusing, and from people besides Topher. There were genuine surprises - Victor, the chair bashing, the warning nod to Sierra, Eliza being a good singer. Her duet with crazy pop diva was actually charming, and one of the best bits of the engagement story. I'll stay away from going into that, except to say that it avoided crapitude, barely, which for me, is a minor miracle.
Best acting - Amy Acker, Miracle Laurie and the Trial Master, whatever his name is. Eliza and Lichen were ... servicable. Psycho fan and psycho star were trapped by being generic and never overcame it.
Next week looks good for a lot of reasons, but especially because it may not focus on guest stars much.
[ edited by shambleau on 2009-02-28 08:53 ]
shambleau | February 28, 08:46 CET
Ronald_SF | February 28, 09:05 CET
Was there something going on between Saunders and Alpha?
Did J-Mo write the songs too?
Do you think Echo and Sierra's connection might be partly due to Echo walking in on Sierra's introductory wipe/imprint? Topher told her she was "a new friend" and they made eye contact. Sierra's still new, so it's interesting that she's already slipping.
[ edited by hacksaway on 2009-02-28 10:48 ]
hacksaway | February 28, 09:16 CET
Going way back up the thread, because someone else nailed exactly what I wanted to say ....
Canonical | February 28, 04:01 CET
Something a number of other comments have reflected, as well.
Someone said that "Boyd owns this show" (I'm still trying to remember the actors names, I avoid all spoilers). I wouldn't go quite that far, but he's definitely my favorite character, along with Topher. Although "favorite" in totally different ways.
Toper still reminds me of a cross between Andrew and Warren, and I mean that as a compliment. Franz (last name?) is just perfect (plus he gets all the best lines).
Love Amy's character too, I hope the show lasts long enough for more character arcs to be revealed and explored, because I have a feeling hers would be one of the most fascinating.
Love Eliza and she knocked it out of the ballpark in the first two eps, but my feeling in this one was that she was struggling not to just phone it in, because of the relatively lightweight subject and the stretching of credibility in the main plot (pop diva has death wish? .... didn't buy it at all). much less, did I care.
I guess I'm in the minority about Sierra. She hasn't had much to do yet, but so far, I agree with whoever said she seems to be the weak link, acting wise. She seemed really wooden in her mind-wiped parts and OTT in the "#1 fan persona.
Too bad about the timing of the Sarah Connor lead-ins, so far. I still love this show, but the first two after the winter break were sub-par. And although I liked tonight's a lot better, it struck me as an ep for those who have closely followed the show and are already deeply invested. Not the greatest lead-in material.
Shey | February 28, 11:23 CET
ShanshuBugaboo | February 28, 11:26 CET
I'm still not really connecting to Paul and I did see a lot of Faith in Jordan (which won't help with the critics), but I think I'm in love with this show. Dr. Saunders definitely has something going on there. I'm wondering whether Adelle's (speculated) previous connection with Caroline is the reason she's willing to cut Echo some slack now - though you'd think she'd avoid the more dangerous engagements in that case. Maybe she just doesn't want to lose her best active. (Another reference to "the attic". Is that where the previous Sierra went? Incidentally, this weakens the idea that Alpha was the very first active, though of course it doesn't disprove it.)
I think this is my favorite so far but it might just be the cumulative effect of three all working together, so I suppose I'd better rewatch them all a couple times. Just to be sure ;)
Rachelkachel | February 28, 11:40 CET
When you think back on 'Firefly', it's not the episode's job or scam that you focus on. In talking about 'Buffy' or 'Angel', it's not the demon-of-the-week that stays with you long after the episode is over.
It's the slow leak of puzzle pieces, what we learn about the characters through their interactions, and their relationships with each other that really matter.
Joss has proven to be master at building these up, long term. So my judgment will indeed be retained for the long term. Which, being antipodean and anxiously awaiting the show to even START here, will be very long term indeed!
missb | February 28, 12:13 CET
If people weren't allowed to call folks idiots further up, what makes you think that calling people skanky trash was going to fly? Consider this a warning.
zeitgeist | February 28, 13:20 CET
Let Down | February 28, 13:23 CET
Shey said:
Um, maybe she's supposed to be? But then, maybe that's how Dichen Lachman is whenever she acts in anything... I've only got Dollhouse and Neighbours to reference. Hopefully soon I understand why she was cast in this. ;) Other than that, I enjoyed her silly part in the episode.
Braeden Fireheart | February 28, 13:32 CET
Valerie | February 28, 13:38 CET
I liked how Topher seems to get more and more arrogant, and Claire seems more and more frightened of people, and oddly, she doesn't seem to agree with what goes on, but stays in the job anyway.
I'm still expecting Miracle to end up as a Doll, but not be revealed for a while.
Loved the last exchange between Echo and Sierra. Would seem Echo is not the only one functioning outside of parameters.
Ivalaine | February 28, 13:44 CET
Is anyone else thinking the writers are setting up a future love interest between Boyd and Dr Saunders? (I just loved 'you can call me by my first name' being undercut by 'why would I want to?')
Let Down | February 28, 13:50 CET
Ivalaine | February 28, 14:01 CET
Let Down | February 28, 13:50 CET
Really, no one else mentioned this? I didn't realize that, or I'd have mentioned it myself. ;)
And I hope you're right about Boyd and Dr. Saunders, I was wondering about that as well.
Shey | February 28, 14:09 CET
TwisTz | February 28, 14:39 CET
zeitgeist | February 28, 14:46 CET
And has anyone noted how much flesh gets shown in this show? Is part of the lead-in an attempt to get young men to tune in as a result? That is not Jossian, at all. If the feminist conceit here is that Echo manages to be become self-aware and gain control over her own life, well, that's obvious. And she is gaining control over, uh, another woman who runs the center and is amoral. And then why the hell would she have needed to do this in the context of signing a contract with the DH? Why not grab control of her life when it really was her life, before she signed herself away? None of this really hangs together right if you give it some thought.
Dana5140 | February 28, 14:46 CET
Obviously, I'm going to have to disagree that no one at the DH is "good". There have already been signs of both "good" and "bad" folks, and even that mix of both within each person that we always enjoy 'round these parts. Its interesting to me that its mostly men complaining that "this is not feminist". And, really does everything have to be explicitly feminist? Can't the show be feminist by working the radical theory that Eliza is a person and that her journey of realization transcends the need to explicitly jump out and shout "girl power" like Daisy at an interview (Spaced reference! I win!)?
This will all hang together way better when you've seen the entire first season, I am sure. I also don't think that not knowing why is the same thing as it not being workable and/or realistic. If she had a way to get control of her life before then we a) wouldn't have a show and b) why doesn't everyone who is out of a job just GET one and why don't starving people just EAT something? Why don't gamblers just stop gambling and alcoholics just stop drinking? Apparently by the third episode, a show should give you all of the answers while making you dinner :) Tell it to the folks on Lost/X-Files/Heroes/etc. <-- see also, joking. Maybe its just not your cup of tea?
ETA - I felt this weeks story was a bit rushed to fit into an hour and suffered from that tonally. There was a LOT going on!
zeitgeist | February 28, 14:54 CET
I couldn't disagree more there. Fran Kranz is amazing as Topher. The Topher character is fairly ugly, I'd agree, but it's wonderfully acted.
I agree with your point about the amount of flesh being shown... but then trying to second-guess what the conceit is at this stage is a little premature (we don't even know if there was a contract yet, amongst other things).
---
Personally, as far as this episode goes, it wasn't until half way through that I actually felt connected to it. This week's story didn't do much for me, but there were moments (Amy Acker's scenes, for example, and the Victor reveal) that were really intriguing. The head-shake at the very end was very strange. It seemed like they both knew far more than we thought, as if they were just pretending to be in the doll state. At the very least, it seemed like they were a lot more self-aware in that state than we'd been lead to believe before. But it was such a brief moment that it'd be easy to read far too much into it; it could just be the way the scene was played was not as the writers intended, or something like that.
I also loved Sierra's Australian accent (I appreciate it's authentic, but it was just nice that the director didn't ask her to play it up, like I'm sure Olivia Williams has to with her English accent).
Bad points: I wasn't sold when Echo got the job at the audition and she was all "squee! OMG!" I also thought Sierra's handler was a little flat. A hint of some backstory would've been nice there. The meta-conversation where the singer said, to Echo, "you don't know what it's like to be made in a factory" -- that seemed a little heavy handed there, even if it did get the point across.
[ edited by MattK on 2009-02-28 15:09 ]
MattK | February 28, 15:01 CET
What worked:
+ I liked the interaction between Dr. Saunders and Boyd.
+ I also liked the final confrontation with Echo working outside the box to solve the problem.
What didn't work:
- The opening of the episode with the live stage performance and girl on fire was really over the top and just annoyed me. Oh and not to mention the music really sucked.
- The whole cheesy 'pop star that wants to die scenario' was just stupid.
- The actress that played Reyna was really grating. Maybe it wasn't completely her fault as the character was written to be a shallow, vapid girl (since when does Joss write such weak female characters :) )
- The fight scene with FBI Guy.. I can't even remember the guys name! Mainly as he hasn't done anything remarkable in three episodes, but yeah the fight was just total crap. Does this guy have superpowers that we don't know about?
- I don't care about the FBI Guy... so why should I care about his stalker next door neighbour. Get her off my TV screen.
- Sierra's actress does nothing for me either. Not great casting there.
[ edited by TwisTz on 2009-02-28 15:15 ]
TwisTz | February 28, 15:04 CET
Ivalaine | February 28, 15:11 CET
Let Down | February 28, 15:14 CET
Luckily for the rest of us, the show isn't made just for you.
MattK | February 28, 15:15 CET
Let Down | February 28, 15:16 CET
Not really because the music wasn't featured throughout the entire episode.
I don't really understand how it is a "bizarre criticism", others above have mentioned cringing during the opening scene. Did we need to see as much bad singing and on stage stuff as we did in the episode? No.
Whoa. Jeez. I'm asked for an opinion and I get canned for it. Calm down guys.
[ edited by TwisTz on 2009-02-28 15:22 ]
TwisTz | February 28, 15:20 CET
Ok, back to your guys regularly scheduled, dissecting of ep ;)
edcsLover9 | February 28, 15:21 CET
zeitgeist | February 28, 15:27 CET
(Also, I seem to remember that episode three of Buffy featured a girl on fire in the teaser as well. Poor old Amber Grove.)
redders | February 28, 15:34 CET
MikeyB | February 28, 15:39 CET
To me, these opening episodes work, but they are messy. The different plot points don't connect yet. I know that's the point, but it's difficult to connect as an audience member to Paul and Mellie when you don't yet understand why they're doing what they're doing. I really enjoy the stuff inside the Dollhouse and the mythology aspects, but the missions, on the whole, don't work for me.
gossi | February 28, 15:39 CET
I found it intriguing that Sierra wiped still knew and reacted immediately to the head shake where I might have expected her to be puzzled by it.
Lioness | February 28, 15:44 CET
I do agree with many of the criticisms of the A plot. I didn't hate it but I could have done without the unsubtle parallels between the singer and Echo. But when it felt it starting to drag there was always something that jolted the thing back to life. When Reed Diamond's character barged in and slammed Topher against a wall and we got all that great dialogue. When Liubov turned out to be an active etc.
Let Down | February 28, 15:44 CET
Found myself reaching for the remote to fast-forward through the whole Sierra as a hostage section (but I didn't to be a fair reviewer). The other parts of the episode (FBI, Dollhouse, etc) were more interesting to me.
chazman | February 28, 15:50 CET
I agreed with that sentiment up until seeing this episode, gossi. After seeing 'The Target' I was resigned to having Paul Ballard and Liubov being introduced to the viewers in a different way each week; I didn't expect any advancement in their stories until episode 6 at least. But to me this episode was when they started feeling like a part of the show with a reason for being there. The scene where they discuss the Dollhouse on the balcony was great - I liked Ballard's little speech about splitting the atom and I think Liubov saying he sees the appeal of being a doll cut right to the heart of one of the best questions the show raises. Paul's fight scene was really well staged and filmed. And the reveal of Liubov as a doll worked for me.
I think most of all this episode has made me start to get attached to the characters. It's all in the little moments rather than the main plot:
- Saunders not using Boyd's first name but then accidentally using it when he's not around
- Adelle taking a genuine interest in what Echo was going to do
- Boyd protectively talking about how Echo can sing
- Topher dressing whatshisname down
Those are just a few of many and I can now really see myself loving this show
Let Down | February 28, 15:53 CET
They keep her in very Bohemian wardrobe...
Wilhelm | February 28, 15:53 CET
But I wasn't too keen on the pop-diva-has-a-death-wish storyline either.
I also agree that Ballard's scenes seem too detatched from the main storyline - we need to see a stronger, more personal link to the Dollhouse for him. Still loving Topher too, although we saw a lot less of him due to the amount of engagement scenes. However, I thought the way Echo handled the mission was really good. I still want to see a lot more interaction betweeen the main characters though.
Shep | February 28, 15:56 CET
They keep her in very Bohemian wardrobe...
Well, we know that she's sweet and motherly and we always see her either baking or making coffee while barefoot.
Yeah, definitely not my fave character so far.
She is stunningly pretty though.
ShanshuBugaboo | February 28, 16:00 CET
I'm not convinced she is. She smiled at Echo at the end, but I think that's just because the blank dolls are friendly to each other and/or she remembers Echo from before the engagement (the treadmill scene).
gomtuu | February 28, 16:06 CET
mle, that was my immediate reaction. "Shaved head and showing your junk" kinda sealed it. :) And am pleasantly surprised at how much I enjoyed the Freedom song.
After re-watching, I decided the pop star thing felt fake not because of the actors, but because her "shows" looked so fake. Chalking that off to budgets, and moving on.
Nice twists I didn't quite see coming. Still mostly unspoiled here, so the Victor reveal was great. Rayna welcoming death didn't surprise me, but Echo's knocking her down with a chair caught me by surprise. And of course, the little bits that all show us she never forgets that Sierra's her friend.
I love Sierra, and I agree with the sentiment I've seen above and in other threads. I think in terms of acting ability, she might just upstage ED. I'm fine with ED's acting. Sierra's (can't remember the actor's name at the moment) roles just seem natural for her. Think about assault-rifle rescue team Sierra vs. Audra. Girl's got some range, no doubt about it. And she's established a believable "blank slate" if that's possible.
LOVE Boyd and Topher and Saunders. Love, love, love.
Kinda loved the Simon Cowell (sp?) guy just because he was so Simon. Disclaimer: I like Simon because I haven't seen AI in years.
I'm not bothered by the clunky weekly filler. It's the same as early Buffy and Angel monster-of-the week stuff. Over time, most of the weekly stuff got better anyway, and after the first seasons, it was all about the arc and not the weekly stuff. It's necessary if a major goal is to attract new viewers.
Some of the criticism I've seen is fair, but some is a little harsh. Re-watch the first few episodes of Buffy, Angel, and Firefly and then you'll think Dollhouse is doing well after three episodes.
Loving the character development. The criticism about the characters not interacting enough are valid, yet they are nonetheless developing. We're only three episodes in... I expect some unexpected events just as soon as they interact a little more. Now that the Dollhouse's role has been firmly established, we'll get so much more of that.
WhoIsOmega? | February 28, 16:10 CET
CMarlowe | February 28, 16:11 CET
SteveP | February 28, 16:14 CET
Let Down | February 28, 16:15 CET
And I like when Topher gets defensive. I adore his character. My only complaint with this episode is I wanted more Boyd. Because I always want more Boyd.
Oh, also, Saunders deserves to be in the opening credits.
sumogrip | February 28, 16:30 CET
Um, because I'm talking about Beyonce. I didn't realize there was a "Beyonce protection" plan at Whedonesque!
Riker | February 28, 16:30 CET
CMarlowe | February 28, 16:11 CET
I was thinking the same thing! Not knowing who she was must have had people going crazy. Also not knowing what was going on with Dawn for the first couple of episodes. We have just been so spoiled by DVDs that we forgot how to enjoy a show live!
Animal Mother | February 28, 16:30 CET
As for the singer and her death wish, it was okay, I guess. The reveal that it was all her own thing felt a little 1980s TV cheesy to me, but it's all a genre mashup anyway, isn't it?
The security guy at the Dollhouse isn't really working for me. I can't put my finger on it. Loved the Victor reveal.
Overall, though, I'm struck by the fact that we're only three episodes in. Only three episodes! Of course we don't know everything yet. This is not CSI. He's building a tangled web, not wrapping up stuff with each episode with just the smallest amount of character development over a season. Were so many people this disgruntled during the Buffy/Angel/Firefly run? Glory must have done a lot of people completely in. Her character and about a million and a half other ones, plus various and sundry plot developments. Obviously, people can and should approach Dollhouse with a critical eye and there are things to criticize, like with any show. But...I feel less "hey, let's let this sucker develop, that's what arc-driven TV shows are all about" than I'd like.
[ edited by phlebotinin on 2009-02-28 16:37 ]
phlebotinin | February 28, 16:33 CET
Sorry, I'm challenged at quoting and this was said near the top of the thread. "And Amy should be in the opening credits, I say!"
I smell a Tara!
Also, does Topher remind anyone else of Warren? I think it's the laugh...
B-Funk | February 28, 16:39 CET
And, yes, Topher does remind me of Warren.
Taaroko | February 28, 16:47 CET
Chris inVirginia | February 28, 16:51 CET
A couple of good one-liners from Eliza, but I didn't like her imprint in this one (very Tru Calling). I thought Sierra was quite sweet in this epi, but wasn't exactly stretched.
I am just so desperate to see more of Echo and Sierra interacting whilst in the dollhouse! Loved the bit at the end... though I don't think I fully understand it... Are they aware that they shouldn't talk? Do they talk whenever they are not being watched? So many questions!
Looking forward to next week!
misssoftserve | February 28, 16:52 CET
phlebotinin: Were so many people this disgruntled during the Buffy/Angel/Firefly run? Glory must have done a lot of people completely in. Her character and about a million and a half other ones, plus various and sundry plot developments.
Yes, but.
The other shows are immediately gripping, even without any notion of the amazing developments to come. The Glory arc works to a great extent because it's the FIFTH season of Buffy, and seasoned Buffy watchers know to be patient, to savor the unveiling of things. Season 1, while uneven, was wonderfully expositive even while telling wonderfully integrated standalone episodes. I'm enjoying Dollhouse, but don't sense that nearly seamless integration of plot and character development that we've become accustomed to.
Oh, we'll watch (actually, we got DVR at long last expressly to tape the whole season, touch wood.) But the immediate connection that I've seen so many people feel with Buffy et. al. isn't quite there, not yet at least.
Chris inVirginia | February 28, 16:57 CET
I still think the show is (deliberately) very different to Buffy, Angel and Firefly. It's not about found family, which those shows were. This is about not knowing who your family is.
gossi | February 28, 16:59 CET
I have a lot of friends who are not loving any of these characters, to the point where I feel that I'm watching a different show! I fell totally in love with Boyd last week, and I'm finding Tophe,r and Amy Acker's character, more and more interesting/compelling. Really all of the characters are working for me, even our security guard in a nice suit who keeps threatening Echo with that attic.
embers | February 28, 17:04 CET
zeitgeist | February 28, 17:05 CET
To tell the truth, what I miss the most so far is that feeling of "found family" you get instantly in Buffy/Angel/Firefly. That cozy, almost instant, it's us against the crazy world feeling. But for a show about uncertain, shifting identities, I kind of don't mind. Ooh, gossi just posted what I was about to add with another sentence. Yes.
And Topher reminds me of Warren, too. With a lighter comedic touch. There's some caring in him, also. He seemed genuinely upset when Boyd was in obvious peril during the last episode.
phlebotinin | February 28, 17:05 CET
phlebotinin | February 28, 17:07 CET
Taaroko | February 28, 17:08 CET
I quoted the Topher to Dominic lines as best I could from memory upstream. ETA: Must be that cloak of invisibility I wield.
[ edited by Tonya J on 2009-02-28 17:13 ]
Tonya J | February 28, 17:12 CET
Ratings due in 20 minutes.
gossi | February 28, 17:13 CET
I liked the Dollhouse-stuff around that a lot though. Topher is just great. Well written and played.
We need to have some background on Mellie soon, otherwise she will just be a girl with a crush on a guy.
But guys, the show is coming together. If these are the less good episodes, the "good" ones will rock so hard!
Akela | February 28, 17:13 CET
Yes. Dominic's creeping me out big time.
Sunfire | February 28, 17:21 CET
I'm thinking of calling him Frosty for his warm demeanor. It was fun watching Topher get annoyed with him and his main ammo to be "I'm a genius! You're just a security guard in a nice suit!"
Sunfire | February 28, 17:23 CET
Or is he just the McGee to Dollhouse's Hulk?
redeem147 | February 28, 17:36 CET
Also, both feature a powerful woman with bad intentions, who just turns out to be raving loonies. The more I think about it, the more it feels like when they suddenly had to do "engagement of the week" plots, they just looked at early buffy episodes and lifted the beats...
narky | February 28, 17:42 CET
Sunfire | February 28, 17:48 CET
I hope we can ALL easily imagine Xander saying that, since he did say almost exactly that (in "The Yoko Factor," I believe, when Anya slugged him after Spike started in on the whole "Xander's joining the army" angle). Perhaps a little shout-out to the lifers in the crowd from J-Mo.
I liked this episode, what with the whole "Echo has her own motivations" turn (plus, whacking diva twerp with folding chair). I (apparently unlike many) did not spot Rayna's death wish before it was revealed, I suppose because usually your ditzy pop diva is more impulsive than existentialist, and therefore would probably take a lot of pills rather than engage in months of correspondence with Cap'n Looney Tunes.
And did anyone else get a cheesed-off-Buffy vibe from Echo/Jordan's "you want to kill her, she wants to die--everybody wins!" riff? Starting to feel Jossy, indeed.
And, FWIW, I think Sierra's job on this one was not to get kidnapped; the handlers rolled with it but I rather suspect "extreme circumstances" does not mean damsel-in-double-distress Sierra, but rather grab-handy-firearm-and-wipe-out-room Sierra. I think "Ghost" showed that the DH guys (Adelle et al., not Joss et al.) are not inclined towards subtlety in dire straits, and by making Sierra's first imprint the Terminator, they tip off that that's going to be her main angle when things hit the fan.
LeafOnTheWind | February 28, 17:53 CET
I have heard much the same from many people. Almost verbatim, in fact.
Still looking for it, or something different that could be just as compelling.
Chris inVirginia | February 28, 17:59 CET
Sunfire | February 28, 18:03 CET
I think honestly my problem is that I've tasted the milk before buying the cow. Because I've read/heard so many interviews about Dollhouse and where it's roughly going, I don't want to have these introducing-the-concept episodes; I want to jump right into the mythology.
Though I was pleased at something: I just realized that the word "treatment" is a trigger for the Actives; when they hear the word, they stop the persona's goals and prepare to go back to the Dollhouse. Good thinking.
reebchan | February 28, 18:10 CET
Anyway, show is clearly starting to move. I can't wait for the next episode, which is always a good sign.
Eerikki | February 28, 19:03 CET
Also, I'm expanding my crazy conspiracy theory about the story, too: I already believe Ballard's an active from a rival group, imprinted to obsessively bring down the Dollhouse- that fight scene today didn't hurt my theory at all- but my new step is that his neighbor is his handler. Makes a bizarre sort of sense, no?
[ edited by kishi on 2009-02-28 19:23 ]
kishi | February 28, 19:23 CET
"As flies to wanton boys are we to the gods. They kill us for their sport." Could be something of a motto for Dollhouse no?
snot monster from outer space | February 28, 19:44 CET
I mention this because those of you saying "why do there have to be these 'stories of the week' when they should be getting on with the big arcs" seem to have forgotten what a big part "stories of the week" used to play in Buffy, Angel and Firefly. So far, Dollhouse is actually paying more attention to the longer arcs than the first three eps of any previous Whedon show.
Another observation: it looks as if (as I suspected) they're simply not going to bother trying to make the Active's engagements plausible (that is, there's no reason at all for the manager guy to pay some absurd amount of money for one extra security person just because he can get her on stage with Rayna). But I can live with that: it never made a lick of sense that someone would hire a spaceship just to move some cattle around, either.
snot monster from outer space | February 28, 19:54 CET
Yes, thank you.
The One True b!X | February 28, 19:56 CET
I think it's interesting that so many people are impatient with the long-term pacing of these first three episodes, especially when comparisons to the first seasons of Buffy and Angel and eps of Firefly come up. Almost the entire first season of Buffy are episodic, and it takes a while for the stuff with the Master to really come up.
I think we're looking at a different television landscape then when Buffy or Angel was coming out. Joss has been a kind of game-changer. The kind of long-term arc storytelling Joss perfected on his previous shows has shifted the way television viewers approach a show - they expect continuity and arc development from the very start, and forget that it took a while for Buffy and Angel to hit their stride. I think our patience and attention levels as viewers have decreased, and we expect more right away instead of letting it develop naturally.
I don't think this is necessarily a good or bad thing, but it shows what an influence Joss's earlier work has had on the television industry and audience, and I think it's pertinent to keep bringing up how it took more than three episodes of any of his previous shows to build up a solid arc.
glorificus314 | February 28, 20:19 CET
I've actually been impressed that they DID work pretty hard at making the Dollhouse the service of last resort. Manager guy wasn't looking for a security guard--he had a lot of security guards, but increasing the number of burly security guards meant little, as none of them could be in close proximity to his unbalanced diva without her freaking out. The idea was to have someone dedicated to protecting Rayna beyond price, whom Rayna would trust, and who could be on stage during shows without Rayna even knowing what was going on. That person, if he/she exists, is very hard to find on a short schedule--and with anything else, manager guy is taking on what is, for him, unacceptable risk. So... Dollhouse. Same for crazy hunter guy, who's been looking for a worthy adversary who's also hot, and for gangsters-have-my-daughter guy (less plausibly for him) who wants a ZERO risk negotiator (and would've had it if not for that freak incident with Miss Penn's profile).
This was always going to be a tricky angle (so of course they had Ballard address it in the pilot) but I think they've done well so far. The show's far from perfect, of course, but they haven't skimped on commitment to internal consistency.
LeafOnTheWind | February 28, 20:22 CET
Simon | February 28, 20:45 CET
...By the way, for those who really hated the "I'm so gifted, I want to die...maybe I can convince someone to light me on fire while I dance" plot, for what it's worth, the plot it reminded me of was less the 3rd ep of SEason 1 Buffy and more "Once More With Feeling," which, as I recall, involved a young woman given great gifts who thought maybe dancing until she burned up was a good way to go. Obviously, that one had fiva and a half years of character history behind it for we, the viewers, but otherwise, not too different for the character at the center of it all...
doubtful guest | February 28, 20:53 CET
Then I looked at the newspaper today and it was even more plausible.
Encouraged to suicide
redeem147 | February 28, 21:03 CET
Anyway, there is going to be better IOTW and as some people have alreade pointed out - we have already gotten tons of Dollhouse-storyarc so far.
Akela | February 28, 21:10 CET
On a side note, the thought I had the most during the episode: why don't they install some kind of GPS or tracking device inside the Actives so instead of searching around for them when they get into trouble they could just go right to them? It would certainly be a less risky and more cost-effective method for out in the field and -- well -- all-too-logical, no?
[ edited by J Linc on 2009-03-01 02:20 ]
J Linc | March 01, 02:20 CET
Gotta find the freedom, that's promised me. Freedom from my troubles and my misery.
Chris the Bloody | March 01, 02:34 CET
I don't think that Paul Ballard's parting shot at the final Borudine killed its recipient.
That having been said, it quite possibly killed his face. Ouch.
Mercenary | March 01, 03:14 CET
On the other hand, I enjoyed the rest of the episode and love how the series arc is revealing itself.
cabri | March 01, 05:20 CET
Sunfire | March 01, 05:45 CET
Topher (to Dr. Saunders): You guys should get married and have scowly babies.
Valse | March 01, 05:50 CET
Valse | March 01, 05:54 CET
But I did find the diva story a bit weak, and I think Sunfire has explained the main reason. Couldn't buy all that character development in five minutes from her. I think it would've worked better if her death wish was something that became apparent to her/us near that final attempt on her life instead of being a long-term plot she'd cooked up with her crazy fan.
I also agree with zeitgeist's comment way up there somewhere that they fit so many things into this episode that the pacing was kind of awkward.
But I'm completely intrigued by this show, and it really doesn't feel like any other show to me--feels like something new.
And I really liked the funny in this episode.
jcs | March 01, 06:57 CET
Caroline | March 01, 10:15 CET
Really think that the show is suffering from excessive expectations syndrome, this episode wasn’t the best thing since sliced bread but it wasn’t as bad as some critics have described it either.
The positive: A few surprises starts to pop up, always a good thing, Victor confirmed as an active was a good thing.
Some nice dialogue in the Dollhouse is starting to give a feel for these characters, Topher really believes he is a genius and irreplaceable, Boyd and Saunders connecting makes sense.
Yay for Dominic the Security guy making the sensible suggestion, – Lets send Echo to the Attic/box her and eliminate the potential problem before it gets out of hand. Now the writers will have to give Adelle some reason apart from stupidity for not doing it.
Eliza gets to hit someone with a chair, always a good thing.
The headshake at the end spoke volumes, when the blank actives are no longer blank where do we go from here ?
The Negative : The engagement did make me think of ‘The Bodyguard’ and not in a good way even if the writers did twist the concept around somewhat.
I did not understand what Sierra was imprinted to do in this engagement, was she really supposed to just be a bystander or what ? Having her there to act solely as a hostage makes no sense to me but I might have missed something.
Adelle should be better defined by now, I can understand why the writers want to keep some mystery for later big reveals on the background of her and the Dollhouse, but personally I’d have preferred if they gave us something and then later said haha tricked you, than leaving an unexplained gaping black hole in the middle of the Dollhouse.
Other thoughts:
Just rewatched the first two episodes of The Pretender since I remember that show as having a very similar structure to the Dollhouse. Thought they did a better job of introducing the characters and the set-up.
The main trio of Jarod, Sydney and Miss Parker was quickly defined giving the the audience the chance to connect while gradually adding other aspects of the show.
Given the magical powers of hindsight would Dollhouse have gotten off to a better start if Ballard and the FBI track had been introduced in episode 4 or later ?
Rated 7/10, yes I believe this was as good as last weeks outing but no better, still plenty of room for improvement.
jpr | March 01, 10:22 CET
I also don't understand about people complaining about missing humor. Sure, there was not a lot of humor in the first two episodes, but "Stage Fright" really delivered more humor. I'm also starting to get into all of the characters (well, maybe except for Adele, she has a lack of interesting scenes so far).
Best casting of the show: Miracle Laurie. I'm madly in love with her. She's just so cute. Joss really has put together a great cast. Fran, Harry, Olivia, Enver, Reed, Tahmoh, Dichen, even Eliza is growing on me. I think she is doing a better job than people give her credit for.
I will be so disappointed when the show gets cancelled. Since FOX hasn't announced an official fate for the show, I'm still hoping for the better, but the ratings are just disastrous.
Donnie | March 01, 10:52 CET
Combine this with the incessant scenes of tight-bodied, scantily-clad women and you've got me very much on the verge of saying "fuck Dollhouse." The show's pandering to someone I don't want to know.
frostcircus | March 01, 11:17 CET
I wanna get back to what John Darc said:
Was this ever addressed on the show? How can Lubov talk about the Dollhouse or even hear the name without getting all dreamy-eyed?
All in all, good episode. I enjoyed it, although maybe not as much as "The Target". Have to rewatch it with subs, though, and I'm very angry that there are none released already. Seriously... Spanish, Greek and Italian, but no English? Grrr.
wiesengrund | March 01, 12:24 CET
I was going to mention that, LeafOnTheWind. Not likely it was a coincidence, good to see the homage tradition still in play. ;)
Shey | March 01, 12:34 CET
Chris inVirginia | February 28, 17:59 CET
I understand this, that element was the most endearing theme in Joss's other shows, for me. On the other hand, I'd have been disappointed if he'd gone there again, I was ready to see a different dimension of his creative mind.
I've remained as unspoiled as possible from the start, but just from the discussions I've read/participated in, I got the impression early on that this one was going to go in a very different direction, with alienation the main touchstone for the "search for identity" theme, rather than "us against the world" connections.
I imagine that theme will enter the mix, if the show lasts long enough. But I'm betting it will still have a tone of distance and wariness, very unlike the warm and fuzzy of Joss's previous work.
So far, I'm pleased with this very different direction.
Shey | March 01, 12:55 CET
snot monster from outer space | February 28, 19:44 CET
Yay! .... brilliant. ;)
Shey | March 01, 13:12 CET
there wasn't even 1 moment worthwhile in the whole episode it is one of the alltime worst.
if this wasn't a show by joss whedon i would love to see the reviews by people in this thread and if it was different then it being joss.... i am down with joss to the end and will follow anything he does including this show but this episode was a disgrace to joss and his legacy.
not even worthy of a f grade... so bad it should be removed from the dvds... it makes "black market" from bsg look like a masterpiece of motion picture.
JOSS WHAT ARE YA DOIN hope the show gets better than what's been put out there so far.
lovelessdreamer | March 01, 15:11 CET
gossi | March 01, 15:12 CET
this episode being a rare thing didn't have even 1 moment of this.
honestly i didn't think the other 2 episodes were great but they had the moments i spoke of... the last episode had some touching moments and it built relationships and made you care about the show.
i didn't like the writing // didn't like the subject of a singer and stalker i mean what is that? and the axctress they chose as the main character was horrible... all the acting was very bad except from tahmoh and his admirer next door - making that horrible actor with the accent one of the dollhouse people is a very bad idea.
man oh man it was just a failure on every single possible level a show could be.... i've never seen an episode where it didn't at least have just 1 moment where you walk away and say well it wasn't the greatest but that 1 moment ya know what i mean.
YIKES!
i love joss but im not going to blindly kiss his butt i will say something sucks or i don't like it even if he is almost a god to me.
lovelessdreamer | March 01, 15:21 CET
but they need to give "badger" from firefly more of a role and focus more on the writing and create something to really care about.
bring in some new actors please. :P
badger/tahmoh/boyd is great --> build on these and bring in some talent.
eliza is not very good as a main character all i think about when i see her is how awesome sarah michelle gellar would be in this role.. she is definitely no sarah.
bottom line though the show needs better writing
guys hunting girls with xtreme sports bows and singers being stalked by fans is not the way to go.
get more deep... get more emotional and real... make us care about things.. make us feel...
LOVE YA JOSS DON'T GET ME WRONG! LOVE YA 4EVER
lovelessdreamer | March 01, 15:39 CET
Simon | March 01, 15:42 CET
that is a very weird thing to say.
i don't follow "proper" punctuation and grammar as i never learned it due to a rebellion against all things with structure and boundaries and blah blah blah
believe me now i wish i studied it so i could avoid answering to the 1 thousand grammar nazi's i encounter on the internet every day hahahaha.
lovelessdreamer | March 01, 15:53 CET
All the Dollhousian subplot stuff was handled very nicely, and there were some interesting developments that have already been pointed out by everyone else above. The acting was a bit better than in previous episodes as well, which was welcome. Eliza knocked it out of the park as far as I'm concerned (she's only been weak in the pilot so far), but was still upstaged by Dichen who was amazing as a shy fangirl. Her strange walk, awkward way of moving and stammering was just pretty much perfect and contrasted heavily with her 'strong woman' persona in "Ghost". Indicative of her impressive range, I'd say. Plus: natural precense. I like.
As for Fran Kranz as Topher - he's still not my favorite actor in this thing. Yes, the character gets good dialogue, so I see why he would be a favorite to many, but I still feel Kranz' delivery of the lines is "off" somehow. I can see him acting, which means it doesn't really flow very naturally. But that might just be me.
Oh, and crazy-stalker-actor totally reminded me of a younger, paler Jake Gyllenhaal.
GVH | March 01, 16:12 CET
For the record, no one is expected to be a faultless speller here. But we do appreciate it if our members make an effort.
Caroline | March 01, 16:14 CET
Worst things about this episode: the A story including every single moment of interaction between the Diva and Echo/Jordan; Eliza's in-and-out Southie accent; Ballard's fight demonstrating 'superhuman' abilities in taking down the Russian crew and ignoring the effects of major injury until he could make the 911 call. I'll be here next week since I want to see how the major arc plays out, but I'm hoping that the pacing, acting, and the dialogue can show some more consistency.
baxter | March 01, 16:27 CET
I buy Topher completely AND I think he is "acting." He's one of those painfully self-conscious people who is always "performing." I think the actor is doing a fabulous job with him.
We have had three episodes in a row where key scenes have had women crying and begging for their lives while on the wrong end of a weapon.
Really? I'm wracking my brains but can't remember any scene with a woman "begging for her life" in either Ep 1 or Ep 2. Sierra did in Ep 3, of course--but then we also rather suspected that between Crazy Stalker Guy and Sierra, it was CSG who was in more danger.
The idea was to have someone dedicated to protecting Rayna beyond price, whom Rayna would trust, and who could be on stage during shows without Rayna even knowing what was going on. That person, if he/she exists, is very hard to find on a short schedule--and with anything else, manager guy is taking on what is, for him, unacceptable risk. So... Dollhouse. Same for crazy hunter guy, who's been looking for a worthy adversary who's also hot, and for gangsters-have-my-daughter guy (less plausibly for him) who wants a ZERO risk negotiator (and would've had it if not for that freak incident with Miss Penn's profile).
The only one of those that "makes sense" (in a "would this happen in some plausible real world" way) is the Crazy Hunter Guy. Because he was specifically sent to the Dollhouse by Alpha.
As for Rayna's manager. A) the episode just skipped over the biggest problem: how do you make sure that Rayna will "trust" this Active. Sure you can imprint Echo to want to defend Rayna with her life, but unless they imprinted Rayna there was no way to know that she'd want to keep Echo close.
B) and what difference does it make, really even when that plan comes together? Look at real-world security. Lots of stars and other famous people have crazy stalkers out there. That doesn't mean that they put security people right beside them on stage. Nor, really, is that likely to help much. Which brings me to
C) it didn't actually help in the Ep. Anyone could have checked Rayna's dressing room after she went on stage and found those Post-Its of Doom. Sure Echo ran out on stage to use the spotlight, but there was no reason for security not to have spotlights. Echo could have done the job the manager wanted without ever even saying "hi" to Rayna (which means that the manager could have gotten a lot more bang for his buck with a conventional security firm: i.e. a lot more bodies on the ground).
This isn't a gripe, by the way. I said in an earlier thread that every genre show has some enabling fiction where you either suspend your disbelief and hop on board or you don't. BtVS is my favorite ever TV show, but in the real world Sunnydale High would have been closed down and the army sent in to Sunnydale about half way through S1.
snot monster from outer space | March 01, 16:40 CET
That seems an odd complaint for someone who presumably likes at least one other of Joss's series--where the same things happened regularly.
Ballard did nothing "superhuman"--not, any any rate, by the standards of genre TV. I mean, he didn't fly, or hand suspended in midair, or catch bullets in his teeth or something. Remember the fight scene everyone complained about in Ep 1? Well, part of the point of that scene was to show us that Ballard trains hard at martial arts. He's meant to be a lean, mean, fightin' machine. By TV standards, that's all we saw in that fight scene.
As for the injury--we didn't get enough medical detail to judge how seriously affected he ought to have been. I took it that the main reason it nearly killed him was from blood loss. Obviously he would be less affected by that immediately after receiving the wound than he would be later--after he'd lost a lot more blood.
Again, though, whether or not it's believable IRL that he could fight on after getting shot that way, it's definitely believable In Television Reality.
snot monster from outer space | March 01, 16:47 CET
Re: Ballard's injury, the only thing consistent about Real World(tm) bullet wounds is that they're remarkably inconsistent. Look up info about the James gang's Northfield, Minnesota raid for an example of just how much damage a human body can soak up and still keep fighting. On the other hand, there was a local man a few years back who got shot in the stomach with a single .22 bullet and died instantly. Go figure.
[ edited by Rowan Hawthorn on 2009-03-01 16:58 ]
[ edited by Rowan Hawthorn on 2009-03-01 16:58 ]
Rowan Hawthorn | March 01, 16:50 CET
I'm not sure I understand people who are against the story of the week. They are weaker than the arc elements, but they haven't been shallow and irrelevent as some claim. Every story of the week so far has thematically said something about the arc and the Dollhouse situation. Themes of identity, freedom, exploitation. I think it's very clever writing. I also think, knowing Joss, that things that currently look like plotholes will be explained at a later date.
flugufrelsarinn | March 01, 17:02 CET
Just wanted to bring something up that I haven't seen anyone else comment on yet (may have missed it if they have) - what was the deal with Sierra and the dizzy spell/near collapse after she was exercising on the treadmill? Seemed kind of odd to me and a little much just as an excuse for that "Friends help each other" moment.
JossIzBoss | March 01, 17:14 CET
Something I haven't seen anybody else mention yet: this is the second Sierra? That means there's way more than 26 possible Actives, doesn't it?
gossi | March 01, 17:19 CET
[ edited by jpr on 2009-03-01 17:22 ]
jpr | March 01, 17:21 CET
Sunfire | March 01, 17:33 CET
And the first Sierra thing is interesting--they certainly didn't make it sound like she got her old identity back & merrily returned to her old life a much richer woman, did they?
jcs | March 01, 17:40 CET
Sunfire | March 01, 17:52 CET
And wow, I've realized that I've yet to comment on Dichen Lachman. I think she's great, and I do think there's a very real chance of her upstaging Eliza. Granted, we don't have much to go on so far, but I thought she was totally natural as Rayna's #1 fan.
Plus, she's a cutie.
Also, I think I might be the only person not down with Mellie right now. Thus far, she just seems so...superfluous. And kind of cliched. But hey, we're only three episodes in, so I'm trying not to be too judgmental as far as character development goes.
[ edited by UnpluggedCrazy on 2009-03-01 18:02 ]
UnpluggedCrazy | March 01, 18:02 CET
Now that's an interesting thought, if he had suggested to give Echo her memory back and send her on her merry way, I'd really have been shocked out of my conditioned responses to evil secret organizations.
jpr | March 01, 18:05 CET
I was wondering if that had anything to do with Alpha. Is he interferring with the wiping somehow?
Simon | March 01, 18:15 CET
To me it's the neatest solution to a sticky problem. Assuming they actually get their own personalities back and paid at the end of the contract. Which I'm not really assuming at this point. But if it is true, that's what I'd expect would happen in cases where an Active just isn't working out. It seems like there'd be some clause where if things don't work out the contract is terminated, they're released somewhere, either with no payment or some amount prorated to the term they served, and they remember nothing.
This reminds me that I wondered during "Stage Fright" about their other employees. What if Dr. Saunders or Boyd quit? Surely the Dollhouse doesn't rely on some confidentiality agreement to keep its secrets. Are their memories of the place removed, and a fake job's memories implanted? Seems like it'd be done without their consent. Or maybe it's in their contract.
Sunfire | March 01, 18:24 CET
What is the purpose of the attic then, temporary storage ?
jpr | March 01, 18:35 CET
Combine this with the incessant scenes of tight-bodied, scantily-clad women and you've got me very much on the verge of saying "fuck Dollhouse." The show's pandering to someone I don't want to know.
frostcircus, just want to point you to something Joss said in the 4th video interview with TV Guide (I transcribed some of the questions over there) in part:
I would consider myself absolutely a feminist, and I think a lot of people who watch Dollhouse are going to be challenged by that because it’s a, it’s a very touchy show, it’s gonna deal with some ugly issues ...
Don't give up yet, but if you can't take the rough material, the ideas that they're playing with, you'll continue to get upset, rather than challenged. Just my 2cents.
Tonya J | March 01, 18:36 CET
Sunfire | March 01, 18:39 CET
When Boyd asks what happened to the first Sierra, her handler says that she "got the job done." And one of the possibilities here was that Sierra's assignment was to get in the way of the would-be-assassin (which she did). Could it be that her actual mission was to get killed herself? Could that have been the first Sierra's "job" as well?
Now, of course, people will say that the Dollhouse is very protective of its dolls and that they make Richard-psycho-killer take out extra insurance and stuff. Plus, aren't dolls a precious commodity? But, I think, maybe in the cruel economic/trafficking logic of the Dollhouse, individual dolls may not be all that precious. I mean, the real economic investment is in the technology and security and stuff, right? Individual people may not be all that hard to come by. (That being said, they seem to treat the dolls really well, not like human traffickers sticking them in a damp cargo ship or something, but that may be because they fetch a higher price that way.)
(I feel kind of dirty even writing this comment. It's just a vile way to think. But maybe the people running the Dollhouse ARE just vile. Maybe Adelle, who seems more protective of Echo than she needs to be (and more than she is of other dolls?) will have a realization about this...)
Septimus | March 01, 18:41 CET
Do they actually have a blocker on Dollhouse talk? I think they just aren't programmed with any information, so if you ask/tell them about the Dollhouse, they'll be confused because they just don't know wtf you're talking about. Victor was probably specifically programmed with the urban legend theory.
I'm still suspicious of Alpha and Dr. Saunders. As they said in the second episode, she got off way easy with just the scars. Why didn't he kill her? Did she help Alpha escape? Where did he get the blade?
hacksaway | March 01, 18:57 CET
So far the protectiveness of the actives seems to be for the benefit of the house no one else. If the writers tries to get around this somehow they will stretch my suspension of disbelief far beyond the breaking point.
Sunfire, re. the cylon boxing, yes that was my first thought as well, but why keep former actives in a storage facility if you can just implant some suitable memory and send them on their way, heck implant a tracker if you think you might want to retrieve them later, the writers will have to come up with some interesting angles here.
jpr | March 01, 19:09 CET
I am still not sold on this show. The premise and the peripheral stories are still very interesting to me, but I agree with the many others who aren't buying the "engagement of the week" parts.
As to the comparison with stand-alone eps in Buffy and Angel, I think that the format of those series ("us against the world," as someone above put it) may have allowed those eps to feel more natural, because the constant was always the high level of interaction among the main characters, from the very first episode.
In Dollhouse, the A-plots continue to feel to me like this (thanks, Intelligent Calcium!): "that's the reason the writer invented the engagement, not the reason the engagement happens in the fictional universe"
In other words, as I watch the story advance, it FEELS like a lot of the action and much of the dialog are happening because they MUST to fit the point the writer is trying to convey, not because it makes any particular sense inside the story.
This leads, for me, to a feeling not of an organic story unfolding, but of watching the man behind the curtain pull the levers.
That said, I didn't have as much of a problem with this episode, because it seemed like a bit more time was spent on the premise of the series as opposed to the A-plot.
Another thing; some have argued that starting off with stand-alone eps is a Joss hallmark, or that viewers have been spoiled (possibly due to Joss' use of the long arc) into wanting to know all about the long arc from the beginning.
I think the first is sort of irrelevant; a lot of people thought early Buffy/Angel eps didn't work well, and some thought they did. But unless every person who is troubled by early DH was also skeeved at early Buffy/Angel, I'm not sure that's an argument in and of itself.
As for the second, I would argue that if we are saying Joss' series helped change the TV landscape to something where arc-dependent series with relatively little stand-alone content such as Lost and BSG are successful, then why revert to an old form just to ARGUABLY do it less well?
This may well be a network problem more than a show problem, but I think Lost and BSG HAVE proven that viewers with nothing invested going in will follow a well-told, complex and often unexplained arc from the start, as opposed to having to be spoonfed episodic stuff for the first couple eps.
And sorry this is so long, but one more observation -- re: Buffy season 5. It's true that the Dawn/Glory thing wasn't immediately explained, but as others have said, that plot was introduced after years of character development -- if S1 ep 1 of Buffy had ended with the Dawn/Buffy scene, it would have had zero resonance.
FeathersMcGraw | March 01, 19:20 CET
that was even longer than I thought it would be...
FeathersMcGraw | March 01, 19:20 CET
Where is the "attic" anyway? I got the idea that the Dollhouse was literally underground. Since Adelle could dim the sun, it seems the view is fake. Kind of like the Ministry of Magic in Harry Potter...
hacksaway | March 01, 19:28 CET
- Cousin Fred, where have you been ?
- I was at this resort, having a great time.
- For five years ???
- well, it was a nice resort.
The glass I assumed was leftovers from the W&H clearance sale, necrotempered and all.
[ edited by jpr on 2009-03-01 19:40 ]
jpr | March 01, 19:36 CET
I may have to watch again, but the look on Adelle's face at the mention of the "attic" did not make it seem like a happytime option.
FeathersMcGraw | March 01, 19:42 CET
(Oh, and, jpr, I never thought the Dollhouse was anything other than manipulative and evil; I was just questioning how manipulative and evil.)
[ edited by Septimus on 2009-03-01 19:47 ]
Septimus | March 01, 19:45 CET
Just to the right of Michael Bay's The Island.
Simon | March 01, 19:52 CET
"The Island" nooo, that would just be to evil, almost as evil as making someone watch the film over and over and over.
ETA, Though if they were selling the bodies for spare sparts after they have finished with them they really would climb the evil scale quite nicely.
[ edited by jpr on 2009-03-01 20:01 ]
jpr | March 01, 19:56 CET
By the way, did anyone think it possible that Rayna was some sort of long-term Active? I first wondered because of the manager's apparently close relationship with Adele, and then because of Rayna's talk about being grown in a lab etc. I mean obviously at one level it was all ironic real-world parallel with the Dollhouse, but I wondered about a possible second level of irony. The point being that programming the perfect pop-tart superstar would actually be quite a good way for the Dollhouse to make money.
It's very unlikely, of course, but it did make me wonder. There was something about Adele's almost maternal interest in Rayna and Rayna's well being that seemed too "possessive" if she was just some random star.
snot monster from outer space | March 01, 20:17 CET
Re. Reyna, no evidence one way or the other, but no one would be surprised if the Mouse House was a big customer of mindwiped pop stars from the Dollhouse, Britney might be just one of Tophers more flawed creations.
jpr | March 01, 20:31 CET
Well, he's not kidding about the ugly at least. And I know it's not like his previous shows were all sunshine lollipops and rainbows all the time, but it was never so... consistent with the ugly. The other shows were never so open with the T & A, either, and it's the combination of these two recurring themes that bugs me the most. So I consider myself still on the fence, wagging a disapproving finger that may shift my centre of gravity.
But I must admit it does help that Joss acknowledged parts of the show to be upsetting. I would be happier if the show itself would acknowledge this, but for now it will do.
As for the defense that it's always A Man on the other side of the weapon, I frankly think that's a pretty crap message in itself - but it also brings to mind a line from Momus' (excellent) Pan's Labyrinth review: "Just because it shows brutal violence mostly being carried out by characters it has designated "brutally violent" does not exempt the film itself from the charge of brutal violence."
frostcircus | March 01, 21:16 CET
When Victor was revealed to be a doll, that was a similar feeling, and when Echo and Sierra exchanged their glances. I am also thinking that each episode is focusing far too much on Echo, I want to see much more from the other dolls, it would be nice to see the action cut away to Sierra on a separate mission. I realize that we have been seeing Victor's missions to some extent, but we didn't know he was a doll then.
I think the major failing right now for me is that Echo has no character. I can't empathize with her because we never see her being herself, and even if we did see her in her blank state more, you can hardly empathize with an empty personality. Something is going to have to change very soon, we need to see who Echo was before, otherwise, why are we meant to care? We can't yearn for her old self, because we haven't seen it, and we can't grow attached to whimsical, humorous, smart, adorable doll-Echo, because obviously she is none of those things when a doll.
I am really enjoying Boyd and Paul, but Topher really annoys me. Amy's character feels a little flat at the moment, but Olivia's character is starting to get interesting. Also major love for Miracle Laurie!
It is early days yet though, I still think the series has great potential, I think by the middle (if not, then the end) of the season we will all be gagging for more. And hopefully there will be more!
[ edited by Vortigun on 2009-03-01 21:36 ]
insistondoubt | March 01, 21:18 CET
Because she's a human being, regardless of whether or not she understands what that means?
The One True b!X | March 01, 21:21 CET
insistondoubt | March 01, 21:41 CET
The One True b!X | March 01, 21:49 CET
jpr | March 01, 21:59 CET
The One True b!X | March 01, 22:02 CET
Sunfire | March 01, 22:27 CET
1."Hey, it's Kevin Kilner on Dollhouse"! Loved him on "Earth: Final Conflict"! Hope he gets a regular gig on Dollhouse.
2.To whoever invented the mute button on TV sets. Thank You!:)
Little Green Kid | March 01, 22:32 CET
Perhaps. But check out the skyline. If that were real, Adelle's office would be pretty high up. I highly doubt that can be the case for the rest of the Dollhouse. So if her office were that far away, it'd be even sillier for Boyd to try to run all the way down in the pilot. I don't think there'd be much need to bring attention to the windows if it were just some kind of advanced tinting.
hacksaway | March 01, 22:34 CET
IrrationaliTV | March 01, 23:00 CET
gossi | March 01, 23:15 CET
flugufrelsarinn | March 01, 23:23 CET
...Sierra: This episode started to allow me to appreciate the actress playing her (?Dichen?)...Prior to this episode, we saw her as either a blank or as a sort of cipher of a hard-ass SWAT team character. I thought she went all out on the geeky fan role, and it worked...without overblowing the metaphor, it's sorta like how the ultimate proof of what a good actor Sean Penn is is not so much his serious Oscar-bait roles (good though he is in them), but rather how perfectly he can pull off Spicoli, who seems so opposite the self-serious Sean Penn we usually are shown in the media. As for the fainting, my assumption was that we were supposed to see this as a link to Sierra's specific situation: either that the "real" person recruited as an active has some problem, or that being trained into being a new active is a tough thing to go through...
...the Dollhouse itself: So far, we (and, for that matter, the outsiders, such as Ballard's fellow-FBI agents) seem to be assuming that the majority of the missions the actives are used for tend toward the "sexbot" end of the spectrum, with the action/adventure scenarios being the unusual cases, and that does generally make sense with what we've seen. And this is, of course, a large reason for how icky or evil the Dollhouse PTB seem to us. BUT WHAT IF there is a very much larger overarching mission that is the "real" focus of most of the Dollhouse's efforts, and not only the sexbot stuff, but even the majority of the other "stand-alone" missions are a cover (and a bill-payer) for the larger mission, whatever that is. That mission might itself turn out to be good, or evil, or (this is the Whedonverse) troublingly difficult to categorize as either...
...Why would this matter? Well, it solves several problems both within the show and "meta" to the show. For one thing, it gives us something to discover about Adelle that might make her motives more interesting to tease out. For another, it might mean the "monster of the week" storytelling that the series has started with might lead somewhere else down the road, where the missions week to week start to have some interconnection that needs to be deciphered, and that might make it worthwhile for both Echo and the audience to stay interested. This might also answer something of the critique made on the IO9 site about whether this show is really ultimately workable as a TV series. (To my mind, it would also make more sense of why the Dollhouse is going out of its way to do things like send Lubov (?and Lasagna Girl? or is she one of Alpha's plants?) out to mess with Ballard, which otherwise seems an odd allocation of resources.) Any thoughts on this?...
(edited for spelling and clarity)
[ edited by doubtful guest on 2009-03-01 23:34 ]
doubtful guest | March 01, 23:30 CET
Sunfire | March 01, 23:59 CET
Sunfire: "I bought the idea that she felt trapped and wanted to die. I could also buy the part where she's corresponding with the crazy fan and wants him to kill her, shares responsibility for other people in her show getting seriously hurt, or does a 180 at the end because things got too real... but not all of the above."
cabri: "I'm thinking more the writing because there were a number of scenes that felt really clunky to me. That makes me sad because Jed and Maurissa wrote it -- but hopeful because they're newish to this game and they will get better."
Yup - What They Said. I thought there was great stuff in this episode, but overall it didn't quite ring my chimes. I wanted it to, but there now, a rollercoaster's gotta have its ups and its downs. Every show I've liked has these episodes - with some parts that've become my favorites, but overall not quite jelling for me.
Re: the feminism issue/the skin issue/the oppression issue/the exploitation issue/the trafficking: I'm hardpressed to know how Joss et al. can deal with these things as content if they can't show them.
In addition to Tonya's quotes from Joss' TV Guide answer, let me add these excerpts from what Joss said in response to a question, posed just before the first Dollhouse broadcast by pinkraygun.com (sorry to repeat these remarks yet again, but I think people who are upset might want to see them:
"it brings up what is ultimately the touchiest issue of the show: are we actually making a comment about the way people use each other that is useful and interesting and textured or are we just putting her in a series of hot outfits and paying lip service to the idea of asking the questions?
I think there are going to be things that people react to differently. Some things will offend some people, some things will not. There are things in it that I’m not positive I support and some of the things that bother me don’t bother any of the other writers. That’s something I’ve been a little bit afraid of, but haven’t shied away from because part of the point is to look at these grey areas and see what of this is innate in us, what do we need from each other, how much do we objectify each other, how much to we use each other - both men and women - and what is actually virtuous.
One of the problems I ran into early on, and this is the only real dissonance between me and the network. was that they didn’t want to deal with these issues. Having bought the show, they didn’t want to deal with the idea of what they are now clearly marketing, the sexy side of it. It’s a classic network problem; you want to evoke this, but then they don’t want to say anything. They don’t want to be specific about it. So, we’ve struggled with that. We’ve struggled with making sure that the show doesn’t, by virtue of playing it safe, become offensive. Because the idea of this show was never to play it safe. The idea was always to be in your face about it.
So, the answer to your question is kind of both. It is just a standard, scantily clad babe come on, and it is ultimately a deconstruction of shame. But, not so much that I would say it’s just done ironically and therefore I am blameless. We are absolutely saying that Eliza is a sexual creature and people desire her for that reason. The idea is to get the audience to look at their own desire and to figure out what of it is acceptable and what is kind of creepy. In order to do that we go to a creepy place sometimes. I’ll be interested to see if people find it empowering or the other thing. I may have crossed the line. Let’s find out."
I think maybe you have to invoke some desire and show some exploitation before and/or while you are writing these aforementioned stories examining this kind of objectification and exploitation.
This is serial storytelling, so I don't have to have all my answers and every character's immediate and eventual response to this bleak situation all at once. I have some faith that the Joss - and showrunners and writers - I know are very consciously dealing with these concerns - while they spin the tales that come to them. I want them to tell the tales they need to tell, not write a tract for me. I can get those elsewhere.
In the three episodes I've seen so far, Joss hasn't crossed my line at all.
And re: a character to care about - in just a few short shows, I've come to care about Echo/Caroline - partly because of the writing, but also due in no small part to Eliza's ability to express her humanity, without having one secure or stable persona to cling to. Good on her - I can wait and see how all the other characters grow (or don't) while I have one main character to identify with most of the time.
She may be a cypher/amalgam of constantly changing personality fragments - but that just makes her like most of the rest of us.
ETF: funked-up link - thanks for pointing that out to me, electricspacegirl.
[ edited by QuoterGal on 2009-03-03 08:27 ]
QuoterGal | March 02, 00:47 CET
I think that's ingenious but might get a bit too tangled. A variant on the idea might be not so much that the Dollhouse has some higher "mission" but that someone with very deep pockets might start turning to the Dollhouse regularly to help it advance some agenda. The government, say, could start hiring Actives as deniable agents (playing up, of course, the "Mission Impossible" aspect of the show). You could do some nice "how deep does the cover up go" stuff with the Paul Ballard plotline in such a story.
snot monster from outer space | March 02, 00:48 CET
Oh, I don't know. Maybe one of the Actives could be hired by a college professor to be the "perfect student" who listens to a 44 minute lecture on gender and performance theory in popular culture?
(P.S. QG--I lost track of another thread in which you posted a link to an annotated Hamlet soliloquy you'd done--brilliant stuff!).
snot monster from outer space | March 02, 00:51 CET
I think DH is neither BtVS nor A nor FF (nor Dr. H) and I'm pretty sure it was never intended to be. I do recall reading somewhere that the first 6 or so episodes were intended to be more standalone to build an audience before the mythology kicks in.
Personally, I think it's early days yet. Does no one else remember what I think is the UNIQUE, MOST INTERESTING factor in Joss Whedon shows: that the characters fundamentally change over time???? After all, in 20 years Matt Dillon stayed sheriff, never moving up to Governor or State Senator; Mary Richards stayed at the same station in Minneapolis; the lawyers on Law and Order stayed lawyers - OK, Sam Waterston is now D.A., I think, but still a lawyer; the doctors on ER are doctors(yes, Abby went from R.N. to M.D. but that was an exception).
In contrast, remember Wesley, fop to Rogue Demon Hunter for real; Willow, shy geek to killer witch; Cordelia, teen queen to decent human being; even River, insane young woman to sane young woman, etc??? For there to be a change, though, there has to be a baseline. That, I believe, is what is happening in these early episodes.
No, not every episode (of all THREE) of DH is the wittiest, most fabulous use of time and film on U.S. television in the history of the galaxy. While I really liked Echo smashing Rayna with the chair, I was even more annoyed that Echo didn't just shoot the client hunting her in "The Target".
Yes, there are elements of the episodes I'm not crazy about, but to me it seems to be improving and there are other things I do in life besides obsess on a TV show. The clients in DH are just vehicles for Echo to 1) show us different situations and 2) introduce new characters/bind with continuing characters and 3) allow her to gain new experiences (this last is my own supposition).
That's what I think. That, and Joss Whedon is the most brilliant entertainer ever.
falina | March 02, 00:57 CET
LOL.
The One True b!X | March 02, 01:10 CET
Yeah, that seems to be the best explanation, doubtful guest. I guess I took the "any discussion of this place"-line from "Ghost" way to seriously.
wiesengrund | March 02, 12:05 CET
I couldn't disagree more.
A couple of hints to help viewers get over their 'eye-rolling' affectations and realize what they're seeing:
* The inner stories are melodramatic potboilers with a twist. They're the A stories of the episodic show Echo is forced to act in every week; they're Eliza Dushku's day job doing insipid Hollywood bullshit for money. Having sex with strangers for money doesn't make her a prostitute; being part of people's ongoing fantasies (from Topher's to the client's) in this way makes her a prostitute.
* If you're only capable of caring about characters who are 'any good' then you might ask yourself whether you're not a little too parochially screwed-up to safely experience American pop culture, and just stick to your wish-fulfillment (Bibles, Tom Clancy novels, pre-'Seeing Red' W/T fanfic, etc.). Regardless of the general concern, I'd argue you're completely wrong about these characters in any case: Topher cares about his art, the British pimp-lady goes back and forth about her whores, Saunders cares about the other people in the Dollhouse, Boyd clearly feels something like love toward Echo (and he trusts her - a well of strength). You can understand Boyd as Giles in 'Checkpoint,' slipping Buffy the drugs and agonizing about whether he can protect her, whether it's worth it, etc. A good person doing bad things. You really think Whedon's gonna make a show about an ensemble of Essentially Bad People? Get your head out of wherever it is...
* Whedon's TV shows are always seeded with possible romance plots, but not this one. Yet you're conditioned to be dying for the divine Tahmoh and the divine Eliza to Get. It. On! (Because that's divinity's earthly task: to create unity, *poof*, out of nothing.) Consider that this might be in the way of your affection - especially if you're a self-identifying 'shipper.'
* Joss Whedon is, as I understand it, a professional writer/director of TV and feature films. If he's instructed this Kranz fella to play Topher broadly, gleefully, with an adolescent amorality to him - well, Topher acts like a software-pirating mp3-downloading juvenile assclown, a callow youth with technological tools whose effects he can't imagine (and pretends he doesn't have to). He's convinced himself none of this stuff matters. Yet he does the right thing sometimes. He's in a line with Malcolm Reynolds and most especially our young Dr Horrible. Indeed I don't know why 'Billy buddy' isn't universally seen as Topher's direct antecedent.
* Remember how subtly the darkness in Dr Horrible was laid in over the three acts, and Joss allowed viewers to watch Billy's megalomania as comedy up until the awesome cackling-villain solo at the press conference (not coincidentally after revealing the depth of the quite-possibly-an-actual-hero Cap. Hammer)? This show is in even less of a hurry than Dr H. We're right in the middle of Act One, folks, and if your worries take the form 'I don't know how I'm supposed to feel' then rest assured that the writers haven't even begun to show their cards. We're talking about the man who wrote Our Mrs Reynolds, for god's sake. When he wants to pull the rug out from under you, you'll know it's happening by the entire world being upside down and bonking you on the head.
I'm loving this show and cringing at it for long stretches of time, and the latter is part of the former. Cue Joker voice: 'It's all part of the plan.'
waxbanks | March 02, 16:51 CET
wiesengrund | March 02, 17:22 CET
I think the "callow youth" bit of this is mostly spot-on. I don't see the connection to Dr. Horrible so much, though. The key to Dr. Horrible was a kind of deep melancholy, which is right there from the start. Topher is too "look how smart I am, look at the cook stuff I can do" for that.
Topher kills the story whenever he shows up, and I would consider this worst casting decision is any of Joss's shows. Now, I know I will be in the big minority here, but this was the deal breaker.
Dana1540: I think that by any objective measure, Topher is clearly the character getting the most favorable responses in the responses here. So you could only fairly say it was Joss's "worst casting decision" if his sole desire was to please you and your wife.
I don't mean that as a snark, by the way. If an actor doesn't convince you, they don't convince you and there's nothing you can do about that. But clearly Topher convinces most of us.
snot monster from outer space | March 02, 17:35 CET
There are ways to fanwank around these questions, of course, but I'm left wondering if ep. 4 will present us with a radically reconceived Echo, or simply ignore the implications of what was a pretty startling moment at the end of ep. 3.
snot monster from outer space | March 02, 18:25 CET
I'm never wrong about who Glory is or whether Joss can convincingly bring Buffy back from death, and, for the most part I can speak pretty confidently about whether the actors in that show rose to the challenge of their roles as the seasons wore on. If we look back at Buffy or Firefly, we are lucky if we get a brief moment of our own or from another fellow traveller that gives us a truly surprising new insight into these things. Soon other common favorites like Galactica will be done revealing their secrets, while Lost is far enough along that it takes as much effort to keep track of all that is already known as it does to hypothesize about the next revelation (fun tho it still is).
Of course, I can't turn off my judging impulse any more than most of us can when I watch an episode, and of course I get no special votes about what is discussed here. But, for me, whether this show ends up among my favorites or not, whether this show runs thirteen episodes or seven seasons, there will be plenty of time for me to figure out what judgements I think the characters, the actors, the plots, and the writers deserve. For now, I'm going to revel in not knowing if there is something going on behind this character or that subplot that will force me to reconsider any moral or aesthetic judgement I think I've already seen enough to make and have fun trying to figure out what might be going on. WHEEEEEEEEE!
doubtful guest | March 02, 19:53 CET
Let's just watch and enjoy (and yes, I am enjoying Dollhouse - I'm not sure what people who have said negative things about the early eps were looking for that has so disappointed them).
PaulfromSunnydale | March 02, 21:48 CET
Like most, I enjoyed the episode mostly despite the main plot, for the juicier Dollhouse stuff. It was also the first one so far that looked and moved as good as a Whedon show should. Thank you David Solomon.
dreamlogic | March 02, 22:49 CET
Is that meant to explain why Echo gets to be BFF with Rayna at such short notice? Seems a bit of a long shot. Unless Topher has access to some pretty specific info about Rayna's subjective opinions (which is possible, re my "Rayna's an Active" speculation above), it's hard to see how he could 'program' Echo to sing the song in exactly the way Rayna wanted to hear it. Would you be more or less likely to immediately love someone if you heard them giving a (to you) crappy rendition of your "favorite song"?
snot monster from outer space | March 02, 22:59 CET
doubtful guest | March 02, 23:28 CET
Other than that, I can't figure out what would have changed to make them want to eliminate him. Stringing him along seemed to be working, until the Caroline photo anyway. Plus, wouldn't his death have made the FBI more interested in the case? I guess they could have spun it as just the Borodins being angry that Ballard was nosing around.
Maybe they were just supposed to rough him up, but that doesn't seem likely.
On TamaraC's point about not needing likable characters to be invested, I'm with her. But I would be, since my favorite shows include Damages, The Sopranos, Deadwood and Arrested Development. But I do think that many people find their way into a show by liking or admiring certain characters and rooting for them to succeed. They were going to have a hard time with something like this and they are.
Oh, and
shambleau | March 03, 04:06 CET
The plan only failed because of his freaky ninja skills. It was a good plan, but like Mulder before him, he can't be stopped.
ETA: I imagine he's just getting too pesky for the Dollhouse. Maybe they know about the photo, but even if they don't, he had a pretty blunt talk with Lubov/Victor about how much he's figured out about the mindframe behind the thing.
[ edited by Sunfire on 2009-03-03 04:29 ]
Sunfire | March 03, 04:27 CET
I would contend that it's not exactly clear who tried to take out Ballard either. It's possible that Victor came up with it on his own or at the bidding of the Borodins.
Septimus | March 03, 04:32 CET
Sunfire | March 03, 04:36 CET
Thanks for that, GVH. I spent half the ep trying to figure why he looked so familiar. :-)
Love the Lear observation, snot monster--just reread it this weekend, but hadn't made the connection.
As lots of people have said, though, the Rayna character didn't work for me overall--but everything Dollhousy was great. Can't wait for the day when it's less Client-of-the-Week, more mythology.
I love the theory that Sierra somehow "imprinted" on Echo as a result of seeing her during her initial wiping. I hadn't thought of that--but it would explain her instinctively trusting Echo and following her lead, even though (as Dichen's said in interviews) she's "not as self-aware as Echo."
Also, if I read the opening scene of the pilot correctly, Adelle and Caroline knew each other. (Wonder if Dominick knows this?) Which might explain why she's protective of Echo . . . she might actually approve of the crazy improvising on engagement, or she might just care about Caroline.
erendis | March 03, 04:56 CET
I was kind of assuming that Echo's reaction was largely reflexive/intuitive--i.e., she senses that they need to keep their friendship a secret even though her memories are fuzzy & she doesn't know exactly why, and that Sierra responds to her because they've established a bond of trust that memory-wiping isn't erasing. Of course, I don't have any real reasons for thinking this except that it seems too soon for Echo to be in full-on "double game" mode.
jcs | March 03, 07:18 CET
At the end of "Stage Fright" when Echo shakes her head at Sierra, Sierra is only responding to Echo shaking her head no. She sees Echo shake her head, knows not to go talk to her and just seems to go "Oh, ok" and passes her by. There is no evidence to support the idea that Sierra is already compositing, so I really doubt that is happening. If that's what the moment was supposed to convey, they sure did a flimsy job trying to show that. It was echo that was remembering, not Sierra.
*Whew* Glad to get that out of my system. Carry on...if there's anyone here anymore to carry on at all...
[ edited by electricspacegirl on 2009-03-03 08:13 ]
electricspacegirl | March 03, 07:58 CET
hacksaway | March 03, 08:57 CET
The One True b!X | March 03, 09:06 CET
wiesengrund | March 03, 09:39 CET
Anyway the Rayna material as presented is fairly pulpy, but I didn't find it all that bad--a bit exhausting, very cliche, but relatively well told and with a few unexpected twists; her death wish being entirely genuine really did surprise me. I like waxbanks' interpretation that the A-plots are deliberately generic, or at least that they are more...hollywood in style than the show proper might be. If that is the intention, it's still probably possible to make them better--really good shallow entertainment A-stories with depth behind them ala Douglas Sirk (whom Tim Minear mentioned as an inspiration for him and Joss in his commentary for "home," when he was talking about naming the anti-Wesley Sirk character), rather than simply servicible shallow entertainment A-stories with depth behind them. (But I still have liked the show!)
WilliamTheB | March 03, 11:31 CET
I felt like quite a few things clicked into place for me during episode three, so I expect that it won't take many more episodes before I'm a huge fan of the show. I've been more concerned with ratings than quality up until now, but it seems like we're pretty certain to get all of season one on air, so I'm just going to enjoy the rest of it (and obviously hope for that second season).
NotaViking | March 03, 13:18 CET
If the first 6 episodes are designed to attract new viewers, it makes sense that they are superficial and glitzy with only hints of deeper meaning. As to if the first 6 episodes are increasing viewership, only time will tell.
falina | March 03, 16:59 CET
From what we've seen of the wiped Actives before, quickly picking up on subtle hints has not seemed to be their strong suit. I'm not suggesting that Sierra and Echo are meant to be read as being fully self-conscious ("holy hell, what am I doing in this place? Last thing I remember was talking to Adele in a little office..."--that kind of thing). But it does seem to me that for Sierra to have A) shown a particular warmth towards Echo and B) realized that Echo didn't want that warmth acted upon suggests that she, too, is not quite as "wiped" as the Dollhouse expects her to be.
I like the idea that Echo's having interrupted Sierra's initial programming has created some kind of special bond between them. I still think that Echo's action itself moves the "season arc" story along by a remarkably large jump. For Echo to think--at a minimum--"hey, I know those guys, they're dangerous to me in some way--and it's especially dangerous for them to see me being friendly with Sierra; I'd better make sure that she doesn't show any special friendliness towards me"--requires a level of self-consciousness, insight, memory, and initiative in her 'blank' state which is multiple orders of magnitude beyond the fragmentary and transient 'echoes' that have characterized her 'malfunctions' thus far.
As to Rayna/Sierra--that's an interesting idea. I speculated before in this thread that Rayna may be a long-term active. I still think the almost maternal way Adele spoke about Rayna was distinctly weird (and what about that little photo-covered shriney thing that Adele was looking at while she spoke to the manager guy? Did the manager bring that, or did Adele just have that already? I got confused and haven't rewatched yet).
snot monster from outer space | March 03, 17:41 CET
It's not even just that Echo was aware that she was being watched. She was actively checking her surroundings to see who was watching. Maybe it's just a deep instinct to do that and she's not entirely conscious of why she's afraid yet, but it's definitely intriguing.
hacksaway | March 03, 18:20 CET
Do we have reason to think that other than the name "Alpha"? I mean, we know there have been previous Sierras, couldn't there have been previous Alphas?
snot monster from outer space | March 03, 18:43 CET
Rachelkachel | March 03, 18:46 CET
(I would say that the apparant ages, not only of the dolls, but of the staff, most particularly Topher, suggest relatively new operation.)
doubtful guest | March 03, 20:03 CET
The One True b!X | March 03, 20:05 CET
... but like Mulder before him, he can't be stopped.
I should have parsed that before, Ballard being the odd-man out agent pursuing this case. It's the perfect analogy:
I WANT TO BELIEVE
Tonya J | March 03, 21:18 CET
So, conceivably at some point after Buffy took off, they kidnapped Joss and backed up his brain, then imprinted it back with a modification to make him create a show called Dollhouse to make any REAL investigations seem incredibly silly? What? Its a valid theory ;).
zeitgeist | March 03, 22:21 CET
Noted one more quick manipulation of Rayna by her manager to help her bond with Jordan/Echo, a suggestion that they wait a little before Jordan joins, which Rayna immediately overrides. Still think a line or two about how they'd imprinted Echo with traits that Rayna had been drawn to before would have made their sudden friendship more convincing. Still, the issue wasn't totally ignored.
And yeah, Ballard didn't kill that thug, just knocked him out.
There are a couple of moments that I hadn't picked up on with Ballard before that are making me like him a little bit more. They are the speech with Lubov and the way he looks lying in his hospital bed, with Mellie trying to visit. There's a melancholy there, an underlying sadness to him to go with the bulldog tendencies. I hope they develop that side of him.
Oops! eta: Echo's name instead of Alpha's. Sorry.
[ edited by shambleau on 2009-03-04 00:03 ]
shambleau | March 03, 23:25 CET
The One True b!X | March 03, 23:51 CET
doubtful guest | March 04, 01:14 CET
hacksaway | March 04, 01:31 CET
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