Whedonesque : Comments on 19317 : Dollhouse gains huge DVR numbers.

Well geeks dont like to live by a schedule.

So what does this actually mean for the show? I don't fully comprehand the American ratings system, obviously I understand more equals good, but how much more means how much good?

And yes English is my first language.

dev | March 02, 22:27 CET

That's great news. 30% gain? Magic.

redders | March 02, 22:28 CET

DVR viewers pay less, to put it in 4 words. But they're (we're) still awesome and I love them (us).

gossi | March 02, 22:30 CET

I may only just be regaining some sort of control over myself.

bubblecat | March 02, 22:32 CET

Have to say, we got a DVR expressly to record Dollhouse. Set it to record the entire series as pretty much the first thing we did with it.

Hope this news is really helpful. We did in fact watch in real time last Friday, but not the first two episodes, and definitely not then next couple, so it's good to know that our viewership is being counted.

It is...isn't it?

Chris inVirginia | March 02, 22:32 CET

Finally some GOOD news! :P

How much a role will these numbers play in FOX's final descision gossi?

Rhodey | March 02, 22:38 CET

Good to know. DVR viewers may be worth less, but they aren't worthless. I wonder how much weight DVR viewers and online viewers are. I know that Hulu charges a premium for their ad spots (per Fast Company article) but if it is enough who can say.

More viewers (especially the prime demo) are going towards DVR/online, so that gives me some hope for Dollhouse.

theclynn | March 02, 22:39 CET

Holy crap, that's fantastic. I was hoping for something like this ... I knew it was more or less our last chance (unless FOX decides to do the airing an ep after Idol thing). But I kept trying to imagine the numbers wouldn't be good so that I wouldn't be shattered when bad numbers came in. Really great news

Let Down | March 02, 22:39 CET

Wooo! Awesome. I know DVR isn't as good as live TV for the networks, since obviously all the commercials are skipped (though thats less of an issue for Dollhouse being one of them Remote Free TV dealies), but this is awesome. I'm really glad both Dollhouse and Terminator got a boost.

SteppeMerc | March 02, 22:40 CET

So it should about the 1.5 million you were hoping for, right, gossi? A 2.6 demo for a Friday night on Fox is spectacular. SPECTACULAR.

Perseo | March 02, 22:41 CET

Lovely. Joss himself has said it's been years since he watched TV "live."

It's one of the ways we're going...

That's such heartening news - thanks bubblecat.

QuoterGal | March 02, 22:42 CET

Welcome :D..I very much enjoyed finding that myself! Thank you twitter!

bubblecat | March 02, 22:43 CET

Yay! Good news. At least, so it seems.

the Groosalugg | March 02, 22:44 CET

It's the end of TV as we know it, and I feel fine.

Haven't watched TV series in real time in eight years or more.

Caroline | March 02, 22:46 CET

Adding to the collective "whoot!"

will.bueche | March 02, 22:47 CET

I'm glad we have more accurate numbers now, but it seems sweet and sour. Do execs think recorded viewers are as important as live viewers? We can fast forward through ads so wouldn't that mean we're less likely to generate revenue? I'm going to stick with my hulu plan. I watch the episode on hulu and tv. Hulu can track the numbers and play ads (I can mute them).

thatweirdgirl | March 02, 22:48 CET

This is great news seeing as DVR counts, but...why does DVR count to the networks and the companies that advertise in their commercial space ? DVR viewers fast-forward through commercials, we don't really pay attention to them (unless while staring at the screen during the fast-forwarding blitz, advertisers have somehow made it so that the commercials still leave an impression...and some people have the 30, 60, and 90-second skip buttons on their DVR remotes, so they see even less of the commercials than I do with my less effective old-fashioned fast-forwardig--granted, still way faster than it was on VHS tape, heh).

Is there that much product placement in Dollhouse, that has them confident they're pretty much covered on getting to us DVR-viewers ?

Kris | March 02, 22:48 CET

Hip hip hooray!

My intuition is that if it does well on DVR on Fridays, it would do better (live-to-DVR-ratio-wise) on a weekday - is that fair? Just in terms of people not being out.

And there isn't any product placement in Dollhouse as far as I know.

jkalderash | March 02, 22:50 CET

Is there that much product placement in Dollhouse, that has them confident they're pretty much covered on getting to us DVR-viewers ?

So you haven't gone out and bought yourself an imprinty-relaxychair, then?

Anyone here industry-savvy enough to break down exactly what these numbers mean for Dollhouse's survival chances?

snot monster from outer space | March 02, 22:54 CET

There was a whole lot of Dell porn in the last episode. Check out during the 'Deech is kidnapped' video.

gossi | March 02, 22:54 CET

Kris you've pretty much summarised why the DVR numbers matter less to the networks than the live numbers.

As for it doing better on another night, that would probably be true but on another night it would need to do a lot better to justify it's place in the line-up. Say what you will about the badness of Friday night but the bar is lowered as to what is an acceptable viewer-ship on Fridays.

helcat | March 02, 22:55 CET

Yeah , definitely noticed the dell porn.

Rhodey | March 02, 22:56 CET

So Eliza was right about DVRs afterall... ;-)

I've always heard that advertisers and nets think DVR+day viewers are useless, for all the reasons already mentioned here. I've also heard that +3 viewers are somehow slightly more important than +7? Is that true?

Anyhow, I'm glad to see so many folks are putting those DVRs to good use.

ProgGrrl | March 02, 22:57 CET

Someone more knowledgable than I may correct this, but are the DVR numbers for Dollhouse more significant than for other shows due to the Remote Free TV experiment? I mean, isn't the whole purpose of that to get more eyeballs on the ads for those watching in time-shifted form? I seem to recall Kevin Reilly saying that the experiment was mostly a success, at least as far as Fringe was concerned, since they were showing increased viewings of the ads as opposed to the regular form.

Ah...here's what Reilly said back in January:

Will the RemoteFreeTV experiment continue? If Fox has its way, yes, but the model that uses half as many commercials for shows like "Fringe" and "Dollhouse" remain a tough sell for advertisers. When asked if RemoteFree was a success, Reilly says, "For the most part, yes. Viewer feedback was great ... advertisers were very happy ... studies showed retention was high ... but not every advertiser wants to pay that premium." Plus, there's an additional production factor of doing shows that are slightly longer than usual.

[ edited by JMaloney on 2009-03-02 22:58 ]

JMaloney | March 02, 22:58 CET

Do cable providers in America offer Dollhouse on demand i.e. available as a catch up service? Virgin Media do that for shows here in the UK and it's become really huge.

Simon | March 02, 22:59 CET

There has been some research that DVR usage does NOT lower product recall significantly. People still watch at three times the speed to make sure they don't miss their show and they see products. They don't get the message, but they recall the product just as well as someone sitting through it.

http://www.brandrepublic.com/News/559250/DVR-ownership-does-not-affect-TV-ad-recall-says-report/?DCMP=ILC-SEARCH

toupence | March 02, 23:00 CET

Huh. Some shows do that but I don't know if any basic cable shows do that... most of the ones I've seen were not from the big networks.

edit: This was in response to Simon.

[ edited by SteppeMerc on 2009-03-02 23:02 ]

SteppeMerc | March 02, 23:01 CET

There has been some research that DVR usage does NOT lower product recall significantly. People still watch at three times the speed to make sure they don't miss their show and they see products. They don't get the message, but they recall the product just as well as someone sitting through it.

There's something a little Clockwork Orange about that, isn't there?

snot monster from outer space | March 02, 23:01 CET

I've seen the argument made that because of remote free viewing fewer people are fastforwarding the ads on DVR. Anyone care to weigh in on whether this is true? And do the networks have any way of tracking whether people are watching the ads or is it speculation?

[ edited by Let Down on 2009-03-02 23:09 ]

Let Down | March 02, 23:02 CET

TV By the Numbers.

Sunfire | March 02, 23:03 CET

I watched Dollhouse on DVR because my car broke down on the way home to watch it. I fast forwarded through the commercials, but slowly so I didn't go to far. So I still saw all of them, but I didn't listen to them.

SteppeMerc | March 02, 23:03 CET

Let Down, please leave the moderating to the people in orange. I have no problem with what helcat said.

Simon | March 02, 23:03 CET

Simon:
Fox doesn't have any of its shows on demand with Verizon FiOS in my area. I can't say what it's like for other providers or other areas. I can only get certain ABC, CBS, and NBC shows on demand.

JMaloney | March 02, 23:04 CET

Let Down: check out my earlier quote from Kevin Reilly in regards to their results with the Remote Free TV experiment and Fringe.

JMaloney | March 02, 23:06 CET

Fox doesn't have any of its shows on demand with Verizon FiOS in my area

Thanks for that, I've been curious about the cable "on demand" system in the States and I keep meaning to ask. It's the way forward for me. So convenient.

Simon | March 02, 23:08 CET

Sunfire's "TV By the Numbers" link leaves me confuzzled. It makes lots of "ooh, ooh, look how well Dollhouse is doing" noises, and then ends with the conclusion that it doesn't really mean anything one way or the other as regard's D'house's survival.

Again, I bleat pathetically for some kind person who actually understands this stuff to 'splain.

P.S, re "Dell porn" ("ooh baby, baby, I'm gonna transfer you to my supervisor")--I wonder if they're going for a subliminal "Dollhouse/Dellhouse" connection?

ETA: I noticed the ads for some asthma inhaler during the pilot. I wonder if they went around various drug companies saying "look, we're gonna give this character some kind of chronic illness...you want to shill an asthma drug, we can make it asthma...".

[ edited by snot monster from outer space on 2009-03-02 23:12 ]

snot monster from outer space | March 02, 23:10 CET

Fair enough, Simon - I've deleted it. It didn't really say what I meant it to say anyway

Thanks JMaloney

Let Down | March 02, 23:10 CET

Yeah, I just read that TV by the Numbers article and now have no idea what to think

Let Down | March 02, 23:11 CET

Good news, though I'm not sure how exactly it will help the show, as all that FOX cares about are their advertisers.

Donnie | March 02, 23:15 CET

Tv by the Numbers has always been very pessimistic about Dollhouse' chances for renewal, and even when the show has an amazing turnout, looks like it's unimportant data. Sometimes certain sites/blogs sound like they have an agenda.

Perseo | March 02, 23:16 CET

From TV by the Numbers:

Some will note that Dollhouse added another 500,000 viewers 18-49 when the additional DVR viewing beyond the same day viewing was lumped in. But guess what? So did Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles. And while I’m a fan of the Terminator franchise, and try to be a fan of the show (some weeks are easier than others), TSCC adding 500,000 18-49 viewers on top of the 230,000 18-49 year olds who watched TSCC on DVR the same day will not save the show. So while Dollhouse is in a better position than TSCC for sure, tossing those numbers around doesn’t really mean much to its survival, even though it is still fun to look at the numbers.

I don't really understand how this all works but even I can tell that that is shaky logic. He basically dismisses the significance of Dollhouse's DVR gains because those numbers wouldn't be enough to save ... TSCC. As he says, Dollhouse has more than a million more viewers than Terminator - so for renewal it doesn't need as many additional viewers as Terminator needs. Now he might have some other good reason for dismissing the DVR figures (I wouldn't know) but the one he provided doesn't make sense.

Let Down | March 02, 23:18 CET

Good to see the happy numbers!

I'm fairly sure the aforementioned "Dell porn" was an Inspiron 1720. I think this because I'm typing on one right now. :)

cheesefan | March 02, 23:19 CET

Global TV isn't running Dollhouse on demand, though it does other Fox shows like House and 24.

redeem147 | March 02, 23:21 CET

Let Down, I took that to mean yeah, it's a nice gain, but the base number it's building on still means the show's on shaky footing. Better than T:SCC but still shaky.

Sunfire | March 02, 23:23 CET

I also think the negative ending was purely directed at TSCC, not Dollhouse. TVbythenumbers have repeatedly pronounced TSCC dead for the last couple of weeks, Dollhouse was more in the "Phew, I dunno, let's see"-realm.

These numbers are ... just neat. A 2.6 on a Friday is nothing short of spectacular.

wiesengrund | March 02, 23:23 CET

@Simon: I don't think Fox is offering VOD for Dollhouse...I have used RCN, DirecTV and now Time Warner cable systems here in the USA and have never found any Fox VOD channel.

ProgGrrl | March 02, 23:25 CET

One possible benefit to high DVR numbers is that they might forecast good DVD sales. In other words, the combination of live viewing and DVR viewing might be a better predictor of DVD sales than live viewing alone.

Then again, I seem to remember reading that FOX doesn't get any of the DVD revenue, so maybe that doesn't matter after all.

gomtuu | March 02, 23:33 CET

I think it's important to stress the absolutes (rating in the demo, number of viewers) and not fixate on the percentage increase as that always looks more impressive when you have a smaller starting number. When the top 10 DVR shows are shown as a percentage gain it's often been full of CW shows for just that reason.

Someone asked if they can look at the ratings for the ads themselves and the answer is yes. With the Live+3 numbers they give specific ratings for each ad shown - as mentioned before this data is rarely if ever released to the public .

helcat | March 02, 23:35 CET

These are good numbers. Solidly good numbers. Yes, DVR is less important in general for networks and advertisers, but networks are paid for those viewers (at least through day three) whether they FF through the commercials or not. And people don't FF through the shortened 60 and 90 sec. commercials breaks as much as on other shows and so the advertisers pay a serious premium for those commercials (sometimes 3 to 4 times as much for a 30 second spot).

The studio was eagerly anticipating these numbers and I think they will be pleased with the results. Adding 1.6 million viewers is a good start and achieving a 2.6 in the demo is great for a Friday. Let's hope these numbers hold up for the second ep as well.

TamaraC | March 02, 23:36 CET

redeem147, Global in Canada also has ads for Dollhouse where the narrator says "Josh Whedon", yikes. It's one thing to get it wrong in print and internet interviews, another thing entirely for the network airing it up here to say the creator's name wrong while promoting it. So they're doing it a double disservice, not putting it on their On Demand slate with their other Fox imports.

Kris | March 02, 23:37 CET

Then again, I seem to remember reading that FOX doesn't get any of the DVD revenue, so maybe that doesn't matter after all.

This is another one of those issues that leaves me perpetually confused. If the studio looked at DVD sale projections and though "damn, we're sitting on a gold mine here" but then heard that the Network were talking cancellation, couldn't they respond by cutting the price of the series to the network?

I mean, if Fox could pick up Dollhouse for the same price as some piece of reality show crap, wouldn't the numbers work pretty well for them?

snot monster from outer space | March 02, 23:38 CET

Global in Canada also has ads for Dollhouse where the narrator says "Josh Whedon", yikes.

Thanks. I thought there was something wrong with my ears.

Though I often find I call my son Joss and Joss Josh. Bit of a tongue twister when there's one of each on your mind.

redeem147 | March 02, 23:42 CET

@Kris
I immediately laughed after hearing it and said to myself "did they really just say that? really global?"

Rhodey | March 02, 23:44 CET

Of course if 20th Century Fox smells big DVD revenue with Dollhouse they might be inclined to cut some of the price for the network, and in this case the situation is much better than how it was for Angel, when the studio was Fox and the network WB.

Perseo | March 02, 23:45 CET

I think the best spin that DVR numbers can have is that they indicate that there IS an audience for the show, an audience that, if they were not out watching Friday the 13th, might actually watch it on the actual day that it airs. It lends credence to the "let the show build an audience" argument.

That being said, I'm taking this with a grain of salt because, well, it was the Pilot, the episode that did the very best of all the episodes so far, and that large number of people watching on their DVRs in the first week did not translate into a larger number tuning in for the second (or third) episode.

However, if Dollhouse continues to have a high DVR following, then that means that people stayed interested but not interested enough to stay home on Friday nights. That may bode well if the show actually DOES get more interesting and gripping in the second half, maybe interesting and gripping enough to get people to watch it on Friday nights in the second half of the season.

Septimus | March 02, 23:46 CET

I mean, if Fox could pick up Dollhouse for the same price as some piece of reality show crap, wouldn't the numbers work pretty well for them?

That has always had me confused as well, snot. I'm thinking it's apathy. The possible profits are probably not large enough to think outside the box and devise a plan that 2000 people need to approve and many meetings need to be had on.

Anyway: this news is of the good. I'm pretty glad that we're finally seeing some positive Dollhouse reporting here. It makes me more optimistic for the show's survival. And let's be honest: all of us want to see Dollhouse return for a second season. If only to talk some more about why it's not up to the quality of our other favorite Jossverse properties :p.

GVH | March 02, 23:48 CET

This is another one of those issues that leaves me perpetually confused. If the studio looked at DVD sale projections and though "damn, we're sitting on a gold mine here" but then heard that the Network were talking cancellation, couldn't they respond by cutting the price of the series to the network?
Absolutely, and studios have cut the cost to the network for shows in order to get another season (though in my memory this was usually to get syndication deals rather than to do with DVD sales) though usually that seems to go along with cutting the budget of the show as well. What I'm not sure is if this has ever happened with a show that is looking to survive into a second season when there may be hope of great DVD sales but no actual great sales to point to.

helcat | March 02, 23:49 CET

FOX have already paid for Dollhouse from 20th, as far as I understand it. So whilst 20th could opt to heavily discount a second series (and, note 20th: do that) to get DVD sales, it involves FOX getting on board with the idea of keeping it around for another series.

Do you want a one line version of what all this means, in my opinion? Both the network and the studio do track DVR numbers. Launching with 1.6 million viewers on DVR is not insignificant to the equation. Let's see what happens week to week. You all know I've been dark and depressing lately when it comes to Dollhouse, but right now I think it has a shot. And I know I'm sounding like Eliza now, but wait until you guys and gals see the later episodes. I know what happens from mid way to the end. There's more plot in the last half of this season than several years of Buffy, in my opinion. They just throw everything at you.

gossi | March 02, 23:57 CET

Okay - and now I'm even more jealous Gossi!

bubblecat | March 03, 00:05 CET

FOX have already paid for Dollhouse from 20th, as far as I understand it.

Really? I'd have thought they'd pay ep by ep. What would be the point, for Fox, of canceling then? They'd just have to pay for a replacement, with little chance of that replacement doing better numbers. Or is there something I'm missing?

They just throw everything at you.

Spoiler tags, please! ;-)

snot monster from outer space | March 03, 00:11 CET

They don't literally throw characters at you through your TV screen. Although if Mellie is going free.... (I'd take her shoe shopping, get your mind out the gutter).

snot, all the episodes have already been shot, and are in the can I believe.

[ edited by gossi on 2009-03-03 00:17 ]

gossi | March 03, 00:17 CET

OK, well I'm taking this as GREAT news.

And is anyone else out there a Fox survey person? I get emailed all their surveys, and they sent me one today. It was basically all about American Idol. At the end it asked for comments, and I wrote in to pair it up with a new show like Dollhouse. Pair it up for a bit, then see if the audience will follow back to Fridays. Can't hurt.

Harmalicious | March 03, 00:18 CET

Harm, good going. I wrote Kevin Reilly an open letter about pairing Dollhouse with AI.

gossi | March 03, 00:19 CET

Apologies if this is a daft question but does "have a shot" mean it has a shot at staying on the air (unlike Drive, The Inside and Wonderfalls) or has a shot at being renewed?

moley75 | March 03, 00:20 CET

gossi = enormous tease

Spending the afternoon on Whedonesque and reading this thread and one other has gotten me anticipating Dollhouse and Buffy Season 8 more than ever.

Kris | March 03, 00:20 CET

moley, I think Dollhouse will air it's full first season unless the ratings go seriously south. Aside from anything else, they've already sent out the press release for the next 6 episodes during the revised sweeps period.

gossi | March 03, 00:24 CET

I must sound like a broken record here but does anyone know when will critics recieve the next few eps?

Rhodey | March 03, 00:30 CET

They don't literally throw characters at you through your TV screen.

Unless it's the very special 3D episode.

redeem147 | March 03, 00:31 CET

Do networks even care about DVR numbers? I am completely ignorant on this.

pollaxt | March 03, 00:31 CET

Great to hear the news, and thanks for posting.

Just a basic question - so is this a measurement of how many Nielsen families are DVRing the show?

Also, I would guess that ad dollars are less for online viewing, but only because it's untested and in its early stages. I don't see anything getting in the way of DVR becoming the "wave of the future" so this seems to speak well for Dollhouse's long-term viability. :)

Also, from the network's point of view, perhaps a show with a DVR/tech-savvy audience like DH's is precisely the kind of show you'd want sitting in a Friday night slot, because it brings more "bang for the buck" - the "buck" being the smaller Friday audience.

[ edited by Ronald_SF on 2009-03-03 00:33 ]

Ronald_SF | March 03, 00:31 CET

snot, all the episodes have already been shot, and are in the can I believe.

Yeah, I knew that. I'm just ignorant of how the financing for this stuff works. Don't the studios make the eps at all until they've sold them? It still seems kinda amazing to me that so many new series get canceled if the networks have in fact paid for a season's worth of episodes and are then looking at paying for more from some other studio. You'd have to be confident that you could more than double the ad revenue to make that economically feasible.

Anyway, I find it comforting that you're feeling hopeful about the full 13 eps getting aired. You can't really ask more of Fox than that. I'm hoping that in about a month's time we get a rash of "boy did I ever miss the boat on this one" re-reviews (or, more likely, "the writers at Dollhouse clearly listened to what we critics had to say and have really turned this show around") and that some kind of an audience begins to solidify. I don't think it'll ever be a big smash hit, but if it's getting some strong critical notices and a decent audience it could get a second series.

snot monster from outer space | March 03, 00:32 CET

I watch Dollhouse on my mom's DVR (unfortunately not always within the 7 days...), and I see the ads during the 30, 60, and 90 second block - I found it too difficult to skip over such short breaks, and besides, I thought some of the commercials were pretty cool (re: Hulu's ad with Eliza!). I tended to skip through the last commercial section, the extended one, but I also caught commercials during my watching on Hulu, so I think I've seen a lot of their commercials (so far, I've watched every episode except the most recent one multiple times, and I haven't watched that one multiple times yet because I was away this weekend).

@Septimus - I think the DVR numbers, if they continue to hold out high up, will show that it's the Friday night that's killing the show. On the other hand, even with the DVR numbers, I don't think the show's a big enough show to carry another night (and I wonder what sort of translation the DVR numbers to broadcast on a different night would show).

@snot - I think when they say canceling Dollhouse, they mean not renewing it after the 13 episode run - because you're right about the silliness of canceling a series that one has already paid for....

boykit | March 03, 00:33 CET

I must sound like a broken record here but does anyone know when will critics recieve the next few eps?

Eliza would like to know too, if you find out Rhodey.

gossi | March 03, 00:33 CET

gossi, I was hoping that would be the case. I'm one of the on the fence people regarding the show but I do so want it to be broadcast in its entirety.

moley75 | March 03, 00:35 CET

While densely-plotted episodes excite me as a fan, they would actually make it more difficult to attract new viewers, wouldn't they? They'd find the story confusing - no easy entry. Plus, for on-going casual viewers, missing one or two eps could lose the thread and they'd tune out too.

shambleau | March 03, 00:37 CET

I'll be the first to let her know. ;P

Rhodey | March 03, 00:38 CET

Nice! I always knew Dollhouse's audience was too awesome to be sitting on their butts at home watching TV on Friday nights. It is sooooo the timeslot's fault.

mysteryshadesman | March 03, 00:43 CET

I wonder just how many people recorded Dollhouse on DVR, but ended up not watching it? Or doesn't it matter if they watched the show they recorded or not when it comes to ratings from DVR use?

Little Green Kid | March 03, 00:44 CET

Maybe, shambleau, but won't it just be totally worth it, if Dollhouse becomes as good as people are suggesting right now? I know I for one can't wait 'till the latter half of the season starts.

GVH | March 03, 00:46 CET

While densely-plotted episodes excite me as a fan, they would actually make it more difficult to attract new viewers, wouldn't they? They'd find the story confusing - no easy entry

Well, if it got a lot of good critical buzz going, and Fox were smart enough to leave the early eps up on Hulu and on their website, it would be pretty easy for people to catch up on the backstory. Fox could even make a point of that in their advertising with a kind of "this is TV so rich you'll want to make sure you're up with the play" kinda way.

snot monster from outer space | March 03, 00:55 CET

Don't the studios make the eps at all until they've sold them?

The shows get pitched to the networks, the networks order either some form of pilot or in the case of Dollhouse a set number of episodes. (I believe it was 8 initially.) They then increased that to a full half season. Mid-season shows are different to regular season shows in that they are usually pretty much done with filming by the time they air while regular season shows will be shooting while the show is airing. A network can cancel an order or not commission anymore episodes. In the case of Dollhouse all they can do is opt not to show them, they've all been paid for regardless. Why would they not show something they've paid for? Usually it's if the ratings get so bad that they could pull in more advertising money with something else they have rights to (ie some cheap reality show/repeat of an existing show).

It still seems kinda amazing to me that so many new series get canceled if the networks have in fact paid for a season's worth of episodes and are then looking at paying for more from some other studio.

For full season shows most get picked up for an initial 12 episode run and if they bomb spectacularly in the ratings an early cancellation saves the studio from having to pay for the full order. They can also choose to cancel after that initial 12 and not order the back nine. You'll also get deals where they'll order extra scripts or episodes in small amounts when they're unsure.

helcat | March 03, 00:56 CET

And then I do the dance of joy. I already want a second season! This seems to be a step in the right direction... so, yay.

pancakegirl | March 03, 01:03 CET

They don't literally throw characters at you through your TV screen.

Okay, but other things? They throw other things through the screen at you? 'Cos you did say they throw everything at you (except characters).

barboo | March 03, 01:06 CET

I wonder just how many people recorded Dollhouse on DVR, but ended up not watching it? Or doesn't it matter if they watched the show they recorded or not when it comes to ratings from DVR use?
They only count if the people watched it within 7 days of the broadcast date, so recording it but not watching it doesn't count for anything.

helcat | March 03, 01:06 CET

I know what happens from mid way to the end. There's more plot in the last half of this season than several years of Buffy, in my opinion. They just throw everything at you.

*head explodes*

LaneMeyer | March 03, 01:08 CET

GVH, will it be worth it as a fan? You betcha. It would be more than kinda ironic if its vault to excellence turned out to be the final nail in the coffin is all.

Snotmonster, I do sometimes forget how much places like Hulu are changing the landscape. Still, the number of viewers who could catch up that way would only be a portion of the viewers who tuned in, tuned out and didn't bother to check out the show on-line. Not everybody pays attention to the buzz. Still, a revised critical consensus, if it comes, is overall a good thing, I don't doubt.

shambleau | March 03, 01:09 CET

Great news!!
I don't understand the numbers so well, but gossi's posts made me happy. =P

maxsummers | March 03, 01:09 CET

My posts are supposed to make people depressed! Holy Batman.

gossi | March 03, 01:12 CET

While densely-plotted episodes excite me as a fan, they would actually make it more difficult to attract new viewers, wouldn't they? They'd find the story confusing - no easy entry.

Isn't that kind of the point of the "six pilots" leading up to the arcyness?

hacksaway | March 03, 01:22 CET

gossi, you're my hero :)

Unrelatedly, I also signed up for that Fox survey thing (ooh, maybe not unrelatedly--I think gossi was the one who linked to it) and today got my first survey. It was about blood and gore. Hard to answer, because I've never considered not watching a show just because it grossed me out.

And sadly, it didn't cover Dollhouse at all. I'm waiting for the one that asks, "Which of these shows--and your opinion will be on what we base our course of action--deserves to be renewed for the next 5-7 years?" I'm waaaaaiting.

Jobo | March 03, 01:25 CET

I think the point someone made, that people can catch up on Hulu, is a good point. I can see people jumping onboard.

Also, didn't the ratings for Buffy shoot up after the coming of Angelus? It seems like developments in the show can create a buzz and pull in new viewers.

Ronald_SF | March 03, 01:26 CET

I think, to answer Snot Monster's question about why a network would cancel a show and not even bother to show unaired episodes, is that some shows do SO spectacularly badly that showing reruns of another show would do better. If that's the case, of course, then it's no greater expense to show it.

And, of course, the added expense of filming another season is why it's harder to get renewed than it is to survive a whole season.

Septimus | March 03, 02:17 CET

Remote Free TV may actually turn out to be a failure if DVR use turns out to be a contributing factor to a show's staying power. My DVR is set to record Dollhouse and Fringe. Telling me a show will return in 90 seconds translates to press forward button 3 times. Admit it. I know I'm not the only one.
As for video on demand for cable TV. I don't think Fox would bother since people can watch it for free on the very Fox friendly, Eliza's a spokesperson in one of their commercials,Hulu. However, it is carried by Amazon video on demand. I looked for it on my Tivo and the commercial free episodes can be downloaded to your Tivo(although not transferable to other devices) for $1.99.
DVR use may be great for Dollhouse but a little bit 'Big Brother' kinda scary.

[ edited by AngelDiva on 2009-03-03 02:27 ]

AngelDiva | March 03, 02:21 CET

@Jobo re: the Fox Panel Survey. The one from Feb 22 was about Dollhouse. It was just before the American Idol survey.

[ edited by Slipping About on 2009-03-03 02:58 ]

Slipping About | March 03, 02:53 CET

The DVR numbers are no more Big Brother scary than regular ratings numbers. They are still based on Nielson households, not everyone with a DVR.

Septimus | March 03, 02:57 CET

Yeeehaw! I'm filled with gladness and cautious optimism!!

Oh yeah, and I feel compelled to respond to someone's assertion (way up there in the thread somewhere) that a second season would allow us to discuss why DH is not living up to the man's earlier shows. It's just not fair to compare a whole Whedon series to the first three eps of DH. Instead, you need to compare apples to apples -- i.e., the first three eps of DH to the first three eps of any other given Whedon show. By that standard, I can easily say DH has been up to snuff -- or maybe even higher than snuff. Joss always starts off a little slow in setting up his arcs, and I think the setup so far has the potential to develop into a mind-blowing season that is as good as anything he's done. Sorry to go off topic, but I continue to feel like many people (including most critics) are using the wrong metric to evaluate this show.

Squishy | March 03, 03:04 CET

"Stage Fright" seemed to have left a more negative impression on people so I'm more than a bit worried about Friday's ratings.

[ edited by Rhodey on 2009-03-03 03:15 ]

Rhodey | March 03, 03:13 CET

Y'know, one advantage Joss had circa Buffy and Angel was being on the WB. Before Felicity/Dawson's/etc, there was Buffy, and I think the WB would be happy with small successess at that time, so Joss got to build an audience. Fox has been "the fourth major" for years now, with all that comes with that status. If things work out poorly, I wonder what the CW's schedule is looking like.

doubtful guest | March 03, 03:17 CET

It's just not fair to compare a whole Whedon series to the first three eps of DH. Instead, you need to compare apples to apples -- i.e., the first three eps of DH to the first three eps of any other given Whedon show. By that standard, I can easily say DH has been up to snuff -- or maybe even higher than snuff. Joss always starts off a little slow in setting up his arcs, and I think the setup so far has the potential to develop into a mind-blowing season that is as good as anything he's done.

Well said! That's been exactly my point, just not stated as nicely.

electricspacegirl | March 03, 03:21 CET

That being said, I'm taking this with a grain of salt because, well, it was the Pilot, the episode that did the very best of all the episodes so far, and that large number of people watching on their DVRs in the first week did not translate into a larger number tuning in for the second (or third) episode.

Septimus, wouldn't it be safe to assume that the drop-off would be similar to the drop-off in the live viewing (ie. 15% and then 10%)? Most of the people who know things about things seem to think that that level of drop off isn't so bad. In fact, I wonder if the loss of viewers might be slightly less on DVR given that people who have gone to the effort of recording the show are probably more likely to stick with it than people who were just at home and had nothing better to do at 9 o'clock

Let Down | March 03, 03:30 CET

I hope Joss is saving up some awesome plots for the next six seasons

Let Down | March 03, 03:31 CET

I have no idea, Let Down. I hope you're right!

Septimus | March 03, 04:21 CET

Whoo-hoo!

Anonymous1 | March 03, 04:30 CET

I have to admit, I don't have DVR--actually I don't even have a TV, I go to a friend's apt to watch Dollhouse live--and I don't really 'get' DVR (My thinking is: why not just record shows and movies on DVDs? My parents just do that and it works fine).
BUT I can recognize that this is good news for Dollhouse and TSCC. Woot, go DH!

Linnea1928 | March 03, 05:51 CET

I wonder what the CW's schedule is looking like.

Don't the CW could afford Dollhouse.

I have to admit, I don't have DVR--actually I don't even have a TV

You know Joss has skills when fans of his shows don't even own TV

[ edited by AngelDiva on 2009-03-03 06:25 ]

AngelDiva | March 03, 06:23 CET

That the networks still rely on Neilsen is amazing to me. With the advent of DVR (and beginning with the VCR), people are no longer bound to the time slot.
The sooner they realize this fact, the better.
Actually, the sooner we stop having advertiser-based TV, the better.

AmazonGirl | March 03, 06:38 CET

@ Septimus/Let Down The optimist in me says that the lower live viewings will translate into higher DVR viewings. But that could just be me...

fuffybaby18 | March 03, 06:54 CET

I don't really 'get' DVR (My thinking is: why not just record shows and movies on DVDs? My parents just do that and it works fine).

Well, for those of us who watch a lot of TV (and I'm guessing you don't because you don't have a TV) DVRs are very handy. Easy to record, play, pause live TV, schedule recordings (can set a whole season at once) etc. Much simpler than bothering with DVDs.

Anyway, those DVR numbers are great. I hope they stay strong and improve throughout the season.

snakebyte | March 03, 07:28 CET

Comcast is not offering Dollhouse on demand. They have, however, been putting up the first season of Veronica Mars a few episodes at a time, so I'm finally getting to watch that.

Comcast's categories for organizing their On Demand offerings are haphazard and it takes a lot of searching to find all the TV series that they have on offer.

janef | March 03, 08:29 CET

I'll try not to sound too classist as I say this, but it seems to me that most "sophisticated" viewers today use DVR. I don't know anyone who watches anything live (with the possible exception of Lost). I was always so frustrated by procedurals and shows like the Ghost Whisperer dominating in ratings, but when you consider DVR trends, it totally makes sense. Here's hoping Fox will give these numbers the consideration they warrant.

Also, with the "remote free tv" thing, I really do find myself watching the commercials, even with DVR. It's easier to wait 60 seconds than fumble with the remote, fast forward too far, etc. See Fox, I am your audience, and I am watching commercials! CONSIDER ME!!!

drnotsobad | March 03, 08:37 CET

TV by the Numbers sounds kind of obsessed with Whedonesque! But regardless of anything else I am hoping that Fox will realize that the Nielsens are increasingly passé, and it is worth while thinking about the new media models for future broadcasting: models that include more use of DVRs, iTunes, and streaming video sites like Hulu. But maybe that is just my wishful thinking.

embers | March 03, 08:40 CET

TV By The Numbers clarifies their comments on Dollhouse's numbers. They also mention a certain commenter Nick C, whose comments on the first article make it sound like Dollhouse has a decent shot at getting renewed if it can maintain a 1.6. But I'm pretty sure I'm doing a Joyce-style selective memory and ignoring anything that looks bad.

jkalderash | March 03, 08:56 CET

Well that's depressing. Not just the unlikely future for Dollhouse, but the death sentence for Terminator. I now will have to hope that Dollhouse continues, and Summer joins the cast, or something.

SteppeMerc | March 03, 09:28 CET

The most important numbers when it comes to networks renewing shows are the C3. C3 numbers tend to be more difficult to come by, and it pretty much appears that only the insiders have access to them, and you have to hope one of them tells you about them.

From what i have heard Dollhouse is doing very well in the C3 ratings, second for the night the first 2 weeks behind only Numbers. This would partial be because of the shorter commercial breaks (C3 numbers are the viewers that actually watched the commercials, including on DVR +3 i believe).

So, as Nick C reassures us constantly, the C3's are good enough for renewal if they stay up where they are, as long as the ratings don't drop further renewal is fairly likely.

So keep telling your friends to watch, and if you record it to your DVR, make sure you watch it within 3 days of the broadcast, and for gods sake don't fast forward through the commercials!!

Beta4Life | March 03, 10:07 CET

Ok I have to ask a few questions.

1. Does live+7 only include Nielsen DVRs? I was under the impression Tivo at least collected data from all their units anonymously.
2. Does live+7 include Hulu/Fox.com streaming? If not, when/if can we expect to see these numbers?
3. Does live+7 include iTunes? If not when/if can we expect to see these numbers?

I am thoroughly happy with these numbers, and hoping they remain similar, and that in fact, people watched the pilot, decided they like it enough to DVR it and go out and enjoy their fridays.

Ivalaine | March 03, 11:30 CET

I'll try to answer as far as I know, Ivalaine.

1. Only Nielsen. I don't know about Tivo, but I'm quite sure all the numbers available to the public are entirely Nielsen-derived.
2. Nope, it doesn't. Fox are privy to those numbers, though, and I think they should be quite healthy.
3. Nope again, but I heard it generally takes 25,000 units sold on iTunes to get to #1, and around ten times that for Hulu. It's important to notice that all 3 episodes were #1 on Hulu and are still in the top 20.

Perseo | March 03, 12:02 CET

So numbers for the pilot are then 5.8 million viewers plus 250,000 viewers across other legal methods.
So we can safely assume that by the ratings calculations, approximately 6 million or more people watched the pilot of Dollhouse in the US. That's not too bad at all in my eyes. It's a small country's worth of people.

Ivalaine | March 03, 12:42 CET

Yes,it's an accurate estimate. We also know 350,000 people watched it with non-legal methods, I hope some of them tried it live. I agree it's not bad, for a Friday night, but I think the 18-49 demo and the gender-specific (especially male) demos are more important. If DH is aimed at young males, from an advertiser point of view, that's where the show has to deliver, more than in the raw totals.

Perseo | March 03, 12:55 CET

viewers plus 250,000 viewers across other legal methods

Where's that from?

gossi | March 03, 13:03 CET

Well, it's not quite cartwheels time, but it's great to have some positive, yet real, numerical ammunition to fire off at the nay-sayers.

Assuming DVR drops off at the same level as the ratings, by the calculations above Dollhouse is still going to be pulling in over 5 million viewers. Wow, I almost feel a smile coming on...

missb | March 03, 13:06 CET

@gossi.

Well if ~250,000 viewers is what's required to hit no 1 on Hulu, and then we have iTunes at ~25,000 plus whatever was on Fox.com so that comes out to about 250,000+

Ivalaine | March 03, 13:10 CET

Gossi, it came about on Tv by the Numbers when they updated Ghost's performance on iTunes. It was assumed as common knowledge that generally 25,000 downloads are enough to be #1 there, and ten times that number for the same spot on Hulu. If true, Ghost widely exceeded that because it's still way high for a three-week old episode. I'll try to look for the exact link.

Here it is. Look at the comments, gossi. Sounds reasonable, number-wise.

http://tvbythenumbers.com/2009/02/16/joss-whedons-dollhouse-scratches-its-way-to-1-on-itunes/12952

[ edited by Perseo on 2009-03-03 13:17 ]

Perseo | March 03, 13:13 CET

I'll try not to sound too classist as I say this, but it seems to me that most "sophisticated" viewers today use DVR. I don't know anyone who watches anything live (with the possible exception of Lost).

Me.

I have one friend I know of with a DVR. I do have a digital box, so I time shift shows from different provinces.

I wouldn't assume that the general population all have DVRs.

redeem147 | March 03, 13:41 CET

Not sure it's worth an individual thread but TvByTheNumbers has an article assessing Dollhouse's chances of renewal.

Leaf | March 03, 13:54 CET

The latest figures from Nielsen show that DVR penetration has climbed to 25% of U.S. homes--up 5% from nine months ago, as cable and satellite operators aggressively try to persuade customers to take on the devices.

From MediaPost

DVR penetration reaches to 31% excluding broadcast-only households and narrowed to adults 18 to 64 who view TV at least one hour per average day. Among qualifying teens 15 to 17, DVR penetration is an amazing 38.3%. Among qualifying adults 55 to 64, DVR penetration is only 16.5%. Based on past studies, this audience represents a TV of the Future Household, reflecting likely DVR penetration in one year for all households. Source: Myers Emotional Connections™ Research.

From JackMyers/DailyMediaData.com

zeitgeist | March 03, 13:57 CET

Who came up with the term penetration to describe how many households have DVRs? What was wrong with words like usage, infiltration, ownership?

DVRs are still fairly new technology here in Oz. Mostly because the channels won't play nice with each other and share their schedules. So whilst Tivo has finally made it's way here, you can't program it to record things on certain channels. It's probably another reason Aussies are such torrid torrenters.

Ivalaine | March 03, 14:14 CET

It's nothing new, they've used "market penetration" as the terminology for products for decades if not longer.

zeitgeist | March 03, 14:21 CET

Thanks to all for the interesting posts on ratings, viewing and recording. I still watch TV in analog mode, just letting the commercials scroll by. What I'm really doing with shows like Dollhouse and T:SCC is marking time until they come out on DVD, when I'll watch them "for real." So I guess I'd count in the live-view ratings even though I pay no attention to the ads -- except Eliza, with the tongue.

doghouse | March 03, 14:27 CET

Sidenote: I have only skimmed so someone may have said this, but in addition to brand recall being similar for those of us ffwd'ing, 52% of DVR folks let the commercials play (and yes, they can and do measure that).

zeitgeist | March 03, 14:35 CET

From what i have heard Dollhouse is doing very well in the C3 ratings, second for the night the first 2 weeks behind only Numbers.

The only problem with that being that the claim was made before the C3 numbers had been released(they tend to follow the Live+7 numbers).

helcat | March 03, 15:02 CET

To be fair, it was made by someone who seems to have had early access to the C3 info in the past.

zeitgeist | March 03, 15:07 CET

Besides the Dell porn, I noticed that Adelle has a Macintosh on her desk.

MissKittysMom | March 03, 15:17 CET

Interesting stat, zeitgeist. So doesn't that mean we can multiply the DVR viewers by 52%? What number does that bring us to, and where does that put Dollhouse?

(Also, I would think that the percentage would be higher for DH because of the shorter commercial breaks)

[ edited by Ronald_SF on 2009-03-03 15:37 ]

Ronald_SF | March 03, 15:34 CET

Adelle has a Macintosh on her desk.

Dell probably paid for that too--associate Macs with eeeevil.

Anyone else think it's TV By the Numbers that needs to 'grow a pair' here? I see precisely one comment in this thread that suggested they have some anti-Dollhouse agenda, and there's simply nobody on this site who refuses to admit the possibility that Dollhouse might get canceled. What there were were some complaints that they wrote a confusingly worded article; the fact that they felt they needed to clarify their statement suggests that they realized that these complaints were well founded.

Overall, I find their latest, less confusing, analysis rather encouraging.

snot monster from outer space | March 03, 17:54 CET

Well, that's dumb. That means I'm not contributing! Ugh! Stupid Nielson boxes.

And I watched "Stage Fright" 3 times and didn't even notice all the porn. BUT, I always stop & watch Eliza's Hulu commercial. :) Honestly, why don't they use actors for their commercials? That I'd watch.

How could people NOT like "Stage Fright"? It gave us the line: "You inspire terrible pity." ;) And truly & openly showed the connections Echo is making with other dolls (Sierra). For this "lack of empathy for characters & plot development" crap I keep hearing, I've seen nothing BUT that.

korkster | March 03, 19:25 CET

How could people NOT like "Stage Fright"?

It wasn't too bad but was there a need to show Eliza wearing a bra? And Rayna's speech at the end was very clunky. Subtle it was not.

Simon | March 03, 19:35 CET

I agree about the bra thing. Or well, did the bra have to be so damn floral? XD

But anyways I quite liked the ep. :D

druzilla | March 03, 19:38 CET

Wasn't the hole bra-scene just a quick reminder that the biz, the industry chooses what you wear, how you present yourself, and how you get to be objectified?

wiesengrund | March 03, 19:41 CET

Honestly, why don't they use actors for their commercials? That I'd watch.

The USA network does this. Actors from their shows appear in commercials for their sponsors (in character), and I think it's fairly successful in getting people to pay attention.

hacksaway | March 03, 19:52 CET

Ronald_SF, you are never going to be able to compute all the numbers with the limited info that is available to the public.

Dollhouse's performance with DVRs is substantial and solid. Not OMG Fabulous! Could be better. Let's hope it continues/grows and at the end of the day the numbers will be good enough for a second season or they won't be good enough. To Fox. They will make the decision by however it is that they measure these things depending on their overall strategy for the week and the night.

TamaraC | March 03, 19:56 CET

drnotsobad: "I'll try not to sound too classist as I say this, but it seems to me that most 'sophisticated' viewers today use DVR. I don't know anyone who watches anything live (with the possible exception of Lost)."

Well, I might be a straw-in-the-hair slack-jawed yokel bumpkin ; >, but we don't have a DVR - we made a conscious decision not to get one, to discourage our additional TV viewing. I download Dollhouse the day after it airs from iTunes for a commercial-free re-watch (and permanent & immediate possession) and I'll also re-watch it, if I feel like it - and a number of other shows - online. (I make sure our computers all watch Dollhouse on hulu...)

I stayed spoiler-free for Battlestar Galactica for a whole year after I decided to watch it, and was able to experience Seasons 1 and 2 first on DVD, which I infinitely prefer to all other methods. Unfortunately, given the company I choose to keep, I don't imagine it's possible - nor do I even want to - wait for Dollhouse.

There's other factors besides class or economic status or "sophistication" that determine whether you watch it "live." Age may be a factor - some people are just very habituated to traditional TV viewing, and may like to visualize it as a shared experience with a large group of other folks. Others, like myself, choose to watch it in a variety of ways, but first off want the experience of seeing it as soon as possible.

It's not always a question of awareness and/or accessibility - sometimes it's just a preference.

QuoterGal | March 03, 20:28 CET

I watch most things live. I have no DVR, but I do still have a VHS player, and I use it, although increasingly less because of iTunes and Hulu.

The One True b!X | March 03, 20:30 CET

How could people NOT like "Stage Fright"?

Heh, yeah. I was surprised too when in the regular sci-fi fantasy newsgroup I frequent, I got major flack for saying I actually liked the episode. Most people thought it was dreadfull, the worst of the initial three and one person even gave up watching (of course, this being a Dutch newsgroup, that doesn't have much impact on viewing figures ;)) because of it. Thanksfully there were still a couple of people who saw progression. But mostly where I saw progression, much better flowing dialogue and the best moment of the series so far in the head-shake, they saw a main storyline with plot-holes. Examples of things mentioned: why can't anyone track an internet feed, what's up with Sierra's role in the whole thing (they couldn't have foreseen her kidnapping or the consquences it had and as it was, she was awfully helpless), why does Eliza need to be a background singer in the first place, why was Dichen's role so over-the-top (where I was thinking she was the playing the best role of the entire episode), etecetera.

They also saw gratuitous semi-nudity (whereas I'd agree with wiesengrund explanation), clunky metaphores and not a whole lot of depth. In the end, I'd say that "Stage Fright" has been the most devise episode there yet, and seeing as that's a group filled with genre-loving television fans, I'm kinda wondering if it'll show in the ratings. I'm hoping on "not so much", though.

[ edited by GVH on 2009-03-03 20:44 ]

GVH | March 03, 20:43 CET

Y'know, as to commercial viewing, my own behavior suggests more strongly than I would have expected that I can be lured to watch commercials again. As I watched little to no TV for several years, then caught up on a number of series on DVD (Alias, first few seasons of Lost, BSG), I arrived at a point where I couldn't tolerate commercial breaks at all, getting infuriated by them even when the TV was just in the background during housework or similar. But on Hulu (where, of course, my ability to skip them was curtailed), I found I minded them less since (A) they were truly shorter breaks and (B) they were less annoying than, say, Fox local news promos (though a series of Axe Body Spray commercials on Hulu left me wanting to smash something). I remain unable to watch network/real-time TV, and all my viewing of Dollhouse,BSG, or similar is by Hulu, itunes or...similar. My TV is truly nothing but a monitor now.

I mention this in this DVR thread to say that, apparantly even someone such as myself who had arrived at a true zero tolerance of commercials can be lured back into watching them if the powers that be are clever enough to arrive at some situation where my unconscious ratio of annoyance to convenience doesn't get too out of whack, and I have to suspect most people have similar triggers. I wonder what this sort of experience will mean in the future when particular programs are trying to make a profitable run as a series prior to whatever DVD future they have.

Oh, and as to the "remotefree" thing (I had to google that one), even if I watch a commercial-less version of Dollhouse, I am, as I remarked in another thread, consciously aware of how the structure of the episode is affected by the whole "fewer commercials early on/more-but-shorter breaks later in the show" approach. The way that this structure might force writers away from intricate builds or reveals of late-in-plot developments and towards multiple re-establishment of continuity and blipvert-size speeches/scenes to wrap things up is not without consequence, I think, for overall show success...Especially on shows such as this one, where the potential lovers/haters will turn on how well or poorly some pretty touchy themes (i.e. exploitation) are handled, structural concerns such as this might become real liabilities to buy in of new audience members of a certain level of sophistication in their narrative tastes. (Kinda strayed from the specific DVR topic, but I hope the question of timeshifting and audience building is within the scope of the discussion developing here!)

doubtful guest | March 03, 20:48 CET

Well, again, the goal of my earlier comment was not to seem classist. It just seems to me that DVR, internet, etc, have pretty much outpaced live tv with most of the people I know (city-dwellers, 18-30, with degrees). Of the two commenters above who took umbrage with my statement, BOTH admitted they watch Dollhouse with some kind of alternate viewing method, delayed, not live. I rest my case.

I know a lot of people watch live tv, but I maintain that the "target demo" for this show generally does not. And I'm sure Fox knows this.

drnotsobad | March 03, 21:01 CET

TV Guide's Matt Mitovich commented on the DVR numbers... My "favorite" quotes:

The moral here: Never underestimate the power of freeze-frame.

and

Of course, the big hurdle for networks such as Fox is getting advertisers to appreciate the value of Live+7 playback and not assume that viewers are "zapping" commercials. For example, the Eliza Dushku/Hulu ad? I could watch it forever.

floofypooh | March 03, 22:18 CET

"For example, the Eliza Dushku/Hulu ad? I could watch it forever."
It is true. As others have said, when I see (or even just hear the voice of ) an actor I enjoy then I actually watch the ad. When James (Clem, the Loose Skin Demon) Leary's pizza commercial was on regularly I always watched and enjoyed it. Just as I always stop to watch any ad with Felicia Day. But of course if the add is annoying then I mute it, or fast forward through it if I can. Basically advertisers really need to make more engaging commercials if they want to prevent people from skipping them.
I'll admit that I do watch Dollhouse live, and I record it on my VCR while I watch, editing out the ads by hitting the pause buttons during the commercials. This is exactly the way I watched Firefly back 5 years ago, and that video tape lasted me, being loaned out to many friends, until just before the DVDs came out (when the tape broke). Of course my efforts are kind of redundant now that iTunes and Hulu have the episodes available!

embers | March 03, 22:30 CET

It's also got to do with enjoyability of the ads. I, for one, find that alcohol ads are usually non annoying at worst, and amazing at best. The latest strongbow ad here had me just in complete awe, and who doesn't enjoy a whole ad done cleverly with wavy arm blowy thing men? Crappy ads on the other hand I'll change the channel for. just like when I hear yet ANOTHER AMI ad on the radio. If advertisers want high retention, they need to be in short ad break, and their ad needs to be clever. It's been shown to work on radio here in Oz http://news.theage.com.au/breaking-news-national/listeners-tuning-out-of-ads-research-20090226-8ixs.html

Ivalaine | March 03, 22:38 CET

drnotsobad - I wasn't arguing with your "case", if your case was that the Dollhouse target demo primarily watches TV by methods alternative to "live" TV - or even if you were to argue that the majority of Dollhouse viewers do so. I'd imagine that it's very likely, though I don't think we can yet know that for sure. (And umbrage was there not, btw.)

I simply disagreed with your statement that these newer viewing methods necessarily indicate more "sophistication" - they simply use more recent technology. When you said that nobody you knew watches anything "live", I thought your implication was that it wasn't done much anymore, not that the target demo - or just the group you hang with - doesn't do it. I was simply pointing out what you said later in your 2nd post: that a lot of people still watch live TV.

I didn't - and actually couldn't have, without a Tardis, since you hadn't yet made that point when I posted - disagree that the Dollhouse target demo watches predominantly by alternate viewing methods.

Mine were not major contentions at all - I was certainly mounting no big case - just a couple of observations I was making to clarify what you said about "live" TV in your first post.

QuoterGal | March 03, 22:40 CET

Ads are important. A person has to go to the bathroom sometime.

They're also useful for time to walk to the computer and obsessively check one's emails.

redeem147 | March 03, 22:40 CET

What is this "walk to the computer"? ;)

zeitgeist | March 03, 23:07 CET

I just have my iPod Touch on me while I watch TV.

The One True b!X | March 03, 23:09 CET

Do whedon fans in general tend towards not-live TV? And why would that be? Most people I know do watch TV live, but maybe they aren't sophisticated ;). Our lack of TV prevents that in general, and DVD is my favorite way to watch stuff, but like Quotergal I can't always wait and expect to remain unspoiled for shows I want to see, so we're watching Dollhouse on Hulu.

Our lack of TV also means that of course we don't DVR, but I'm glad those numbers look good, for whatever it may or may not be worth to TPTB.

As to that last episode... (I'm too exhausted, after moving into a new place over the weekend, to look at that 300+ comment "discuss" thread and it seems inappropriate to post in a thread I haven't read) I think I'd fit in well enough with GVH's sci-fi fantasy newsgroup. There were nice moments, but I was actually bored by most of the episode. The main plot seemed so silly, and everything else felt... unsubtle. I liked Eliza's head-shake at the end but I also felt like I was held at such a distance. I have no idea what she remembers, what she thinks is going on, what she's actually experiencing... and obviously, for some people that adds to the cool but I just feel like it's hampering my ability to (sorry!) empathize and engage with Echo.

That said, I'll keep on saying how very engaging I find Eliza as an actress. She's just such an alive presence.

Looking forward to next week. I really enjoyed the first two episodes, so it was a let down to find myself just wanting to go to bed during this one. (But my crankiness can be partly chalked up to the fact that we watched it at the end of a long day of moving... I maybe wasn't in the best headspace).

catherine | March 03, 23:09 CET

Do whedon fans in general tend towards not-live TV? And why would that be?

We are disproportionately skewed towards geekdom :). Heck, I bet there are those among us who watched it on a homebuilt HTPC/PVR or some other equally geeky method (Hulu through on a PS3 via PlayOn or some other DLNA thingamajig?).

(I'm too exhausted, after moving into a new place over the weekend, to look at that 300+ comment "discuss" thread and it seems inappropriate to post in a thread I haven't read)

So you're the one ;).

[ edited by zeitgeist on 2009-03-03 23:17 ]

zeitgeist | March 03, 23:12 CET

I am??

I'm still tired - take pity! Make all jokes incredibly obvious!

catherine | March 03, 23:15 CET

So is watching TV not live more geeky (and is that similar to being more sophisticated?;)) than watching it live? Am I the geekiest person I know?

catherine | March 03, 23:17 CET

I was making the joke that you are the only one who thinks that its inappropriate to comment in a thread without at least skimming. The methods used to watch it non-live tend to be intrinsically more geeky. Are you the geekiest person you know? Maybe... for now!

zeitgeist | March 03, 23:20 CET

Oh - that actually was pretty obvious, wasn't it? I am definitely the tired-est person I know.

I feel like I missed the boat a little on the whole geek girl thing. I wish I'd realized in college that geekdom was my true nature. I think it might have been more fun than my delusions of cool ;). Not that it's too late to be a geek now, of course, I just feel like I'm coming to it late and I don't know how to dress for it and I don't know anything about comics and that makes me insecure about this new tenuous geek identity.

So. Yeah. Yay DVR? I need a nap. I may not post in threads I haven't read, but I'm breaking my rule about posting when delirious with exhaustion.

catherine | March 03, 23:29 CET

Well, I guess I'm the average Jane then. I watch Dollhouse live and record it to my DVR. Continuing with the Dr. Horrible "event" theme, I watch Dollhouse live so I can have something to look forward to during the week. And then, with my DVR recordings, I watch all of the episodes back-to-back to fully digest what I watched a day (or two) before. It's been wonderful.

Even when we (my family & I) are catching up on BSG (finishing Season 4.0), I made us stop before the finale so we could watch Dollhouse. It's my way of participating in something I love and I always feel good after watching it (because it's awesome).

Of course, it also helps that I'm completely broke and after a heavy work week the one thing I want to do on my "weekend" is take a break... and Dollhouse is right there waiting for me.

RE: Jordan's flowery bra.

I find underclothes to be very telling of a person. Women who want to hang on the "girl" part of themselves like to have bright, colorful underwear. They aren't usually seen in public, which is why they wear them. It's for them alone. Well, imo.

I used to be a dancer and it IS a very open "no bathroom to change" environment. It's always been like that. There's no room for shyness in a dressing area. So that article that was "for your own eyes" now becomes the barrier between the world and your privacy... which is something you have to let go. It would have been unrealistic if they allowed her to be fully clothed or had allowed her to change in the bathroom- that just doesn't happen.

korkster | March 03, 23:41 CET

My dvr doesn't record in HD, so I prefer to watch live. Besides, the shows I most care about I want to watch immediately. On the flip side, when there are things on at the same time, I've been finding myself foregoing the dvr completely for...alternative methods. Watching video through a ps3 is almost as good as HD. I'd love to watch Hulu through it without having to go through PlayOn though.

hacksaway | March 03, 23:42 CET

I count my blessings that I can record HD and two shows at once without resorting to alternative methods. I know, I'm an elitist!

zeitgeist | March 03, 23:46 CET

Am I dreaming, or is this something positive, in actual coherent words, being written about Dollhouse?? I'll take that as a major victory. Interpret all you want nay-sayer's of the interwebs but no matter how you twist and turn this news, it's still positive!

The other important item gleaned from this article is something we've all known for a long time, Joss fans are smart, a little geeky, very hip and certainly skewed to the non-mainstream. This off the mainstream trend includes technology...i.e. DVR.

We are early adopters and the shapers of cool.

alexreager | March 03, 23:49 CET

No, elitists don't count their blessings, they just assume they are entitled to them.

The One True b!X | March 03, 23:52 CET

Haha, I was thinking that as I typed it, but then I decided to see who would point it out. Or it could be a test to see if I have any lackeys to correct me; either way, you win!

[ edited by zeitgeist on 2009-03-04 00:02 ]

zeitgeist | March 03, 23:56 CET

It would have been unrealistic if they allowed her to be fully clothed or had allowed her to change in the bathroom- that just doesn't happen.

I wasn't particularly bothered by the scene (and I thought it was a nice bra) but I think maybe showing realistically what the clothing / privacy / identity situation is for back-up singers was not so much the point. I can't help thinking that whatever else they may have been trying to do with that scene, the "main point" was "check out Eliza in her bra." I can't really buy some more altruistic version. To me it felt gratuitous. It wasn't surprising, though - they're well on their way down that road already.

We are early adopters and the shapers of cool.

Like I said, I'm still new to this whole geek identity, and you guys are throwing way too much at me! So are geeks also sophisticated and also hip and also cool? I'm not sure I have the energy to be all of those things...

catherine | March 03, 23:56 CET

Sure you do, catherine. Y'see, you don't actually have to be all those things, you just have to boast about being them online ;).

Also: you're more than welcome to join my sci-fi fantasy group. I'll even teach you Dutch (no, I probably won't).

(And on a not-even-a-bit-related note: has anyone seen Saje? It's been, like, ages. Feels weird not having the guy post on every single topic here ;))

GVH | March 04, 00:24 CET

my crankiness can be partly chalked up to the fact that we watched it at the end of a long day of moving

Can't imagine many shows that would survive moving hell. Moving is famously one of Life Most Discombobulating Experiences. If you didn't want to chuck a rock at the TV and set fire to all your belongings while watching the show, I'll chalk that up as a 'win' for Dollhouse.

Hope the move was for nice reasons.

snot monster from outer space | March 04, 00:32 CET

I know it seems like a long time, GVH, because a day without a post from Saje seems like f-o-r-e-v-e-r ; >, but it's really only been a few days - his most recent post was just last Thursday. (Haven't "seen" him since then.)

Maybe he's just on a break.

(Congratulations, Catherine, on your move accomplished. Reeeeeeest. Lottsa rest.)

QuoterGal | March 04, 00:44 CET

Check, QG. I guess not-even-a-week doesn't quite qualify as ages ;). And also: yeah, catherine, forgot to even congratulate you on the completed move. Do rest (although: tired-but-still-posting catherine is amusing as well :)).

(Wow, there wasn't even an ounce of on-topic content in this post ;))

GVH | March 04, 00:48 CET

Thursday?! Uh oh, should we picnic? I don't think we can go a week without WSSs.

hacksaway | March 04, 00:50 CET

The move was definitely for nice reasons - baby on the way and needing a bit more space - and was my first non-international move in a long while, so less stressful than previous moves, but tiring anyway. We actually just moved about a block away from our old place, so I don't know what I'm complaining about ;).

And yes, where IS Saje? Five days totally qualifies as picnic-inducing ages. He should at least call somebody to let us know if he isn't going to be around for a while. Doesn't he know it's his duty to entertain us on a daily basis? Breakfast isn't the same without him.

Are there non-Dutch-speakers in your sci-fi fantasy group, GVH? I mean, I guess I could still join and just respond to what I think people might be saying, but that might not make me popular.

catherine | March 04, 00:54 CET

I don't think there was any other product placement besides the Dell Computer stuff. I would elaborate more, but I gotta run...Old Navy's having a sale on slacks!

doubtful guest | March 04, 01:20 CET

I've been thinking the same thing. Where the hell is Saje??? His counters to my counters are an essential part of my day, and I've definitely felt the ache. Especially since he, GVH & I mind-melded over our Dr. Horrible giddy-ness.

Does anyone *really* know him? We should make a point to check and make sure he's not dead. Poke him with a stick? Has he ascended? Did I accidentally make him part of my slave army? (I think I remember threatening such a while ago... but it was in jest!)

We need to do a search. Everyone spread out, keyboard-length apart, and comb the web for Saje. This is serious!

Maybe he's hooking up a DVR? (and now we're back on-topic) ;)

korkster | March 04, 01:51 CET

Are there non-Dutch-speakers in your sci-fi fantasy group, GVH? I mean, I guess I could still join and just respond to what I think people might be saying, but that might not make me popular.

Actually.. no, catherine. But I guess it'd be fun to see everyone weirded out by your sudden appearance (of course, they'd all be able to read what you said). If only just for me ;)

comb the web for Saje

And now I have 'Spaceballs' imagery in my head. Thank you very much, korkster.

Anyway, I'm sure he's just away for a couple of days. I'm pretty sure we can all scold him for his sudden absence soon-ish ;).

GVH | March 04, 08:17 CET

http://tvbythenumbers.com/2009/03/03/dollhouses-future-in-the-balance/13836

Another assessment on Dollhouse's future.

Perseo | March 04, 09:09 CET

I think I may have found him on vacation.

RollingInKittens | March 04, 09:28 CET

Hee!

catherine | March 04, 15:47 CET

That's a perfect staycation picture, RollinginKittens.

I hope he's okay. This lack of Saje does give worries though. Where ever he is his ears better be burning!

korkster | March 04, 21:31 CET

March 02 2009