Dollhouse episode 4 ratings.
"Terminator" was down 17% this week in the demo (3.0 million, 1.0/4) and "Dollhouse" dropped another tenth (3.5 million, 1.5/5)."
Here's how it looks in terms of Fast Nationals:
Episode 1 - 4.8 million, 2.0 in 18-49 demo.
Episode 2 - 4.3 million, 1.7 in 18-49 demo. 5% share
Episode 3 - 4.2 million, 1.6 in 18-49 demo. 5% share
Episode 4 - 3.5 million, 1.5 in 18-49 demo, 5% share
March 07 2009
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Simon | March 07, 09:43 CET
gossi | March 07, 09:44 CET
kasadilla | March 07, 09:46 CET
gossi | March 07, 09:47 CET
I figured Dollhouse might go to 1.5 this week, but I do wonder about the overall numbers. The drop from episode 3 to episode 4 is as big as the drop from episode 1 to episode 3.
Anyway, the 1.5 is still not good news. Watchmen or not, Dollhouse needs an upwards trend soon.
ETA: You might changed that last line or your extended description,gossi. :)
[ edited by wiesengrund on 2009-03-07 18:52 ]
wiesengrund | March 07, 09:49 CET
And yeah, definitely in agreement about Terminator. I was hoping to see better numbers for Dollhouse, but I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the DVR numbers will give it at least a little boost for the past 3 episodes. :/
kasadilla | March 07, 09:51 CET
helcat | March 07, 09:52 CET
gossi | March 07, 09:56 CET
One of Many | March 07, 09:56 CET
helcat | March 07, 09:58 CET
edcsLover9 | March 07, 09:58 CET
Ameer | March 07, 09:59 CET
flugufrelsarinn | March 07, 10:00 CET
electricspacegirl | March 07, 10:02 CET
helcat | March 07, 10:02 CET
[ edited by gossi on 2009-03-07 19:06 ]
gossi | March 07, 10:05 CET
helcat | March 07, 10:07 CET
gossi | March 07, 10:08 CET
Taaroko | March 07, 10:12 CET
Episode 1 - 4.778 > 4.8 (based on final nationals)
Episode 2 - 4.250 > 4.3 (based on final nationals)
Episode 3 - 4.181 > 4.2 (based on first nationals)
(I know, that's totally uncalled for nitpicking... :)
What I do wonder is how Dollhouse is dropping each week in the demo, but the overall rating/share stays quite constant: 2.8/5 > 2.7/5 > 2.7/5 for the first three episodes.
Also, your "3.5 million demo viewers"-theory is impossible: A 1.5 demo rating translates to 2 million demo viewers. (3.5 million demo viewers would translate to a 2.6 demo rating... which is what "Ghost" had after seven days of DVR.)
[ edited by wiesengrund on 2009-03-07 19:15 ]
wiesengrund | March 07, 10:12 CET
gossi | March 07, 10:18 CET
[ edited by helcat on 2009-03-07 19:19 ]
helcat | March 07, 10:18 CET
To what do we attribute that? Watchmen? Better weather? Other shows not being good this week?
Septimus | March 07, 10:20 CET
doubtful guest | March 07, 10:21 CET
The Operative | March 07, 10:23 CET
gossi | March 07, 10:25 CET
Which isn't going to happen, given that in two weeks it's up against the series finale of BSG. There's no room for a trend here, even if one started next week.
@theonetruebix | March 07, 10:28 CET
I would explain it differently,helcat. I'm thinking a lot of older people (>49) didn't show up after "Stage Fright". The demo numbers dropped as usual, but the overall viewers were missing these older people. Like, half a million of them.
wiesengrund | March 07, 10:29 CET
As for Watchmen, as expected it had a huge Friday opening.
http://boxofficemojo.com/daily/chart/?sortdate=2009-03-06&p=.htm
helcat | March 07, 10:32 CET
I absolutely agree, March 20th will be a horrible day for Dollhouse. There is no way around it. In order to survive, episode 7 "Echoes" (any confirmation on the airdate for that?) must show an upwards trend, and the "Man on the Street"-DVR numbers must be really great. If it continues to climb after "Echoes" I do see a chance.
Unless, of course, the decision is being made earlier.
I've never heard of that. Would we be happy about that?
(Probably not. "Ghost Whisperer" has better demo numbers than "Flashpoint", I guess...)
wiesengrund | March 07, 10:33 CET
SteveJ2008 | March 07, 10:33 CET
Doesn't CBS's March Madness start next week, too?
gossi | March 07, 10:36 CET
And yes, about the Madness.
wiesengrund | March 07, 10:38 CET
I would. Then I could watch Flashpoint without staying up until one am or watching online.
redeem147 | March 07, 10:39 CET
helcat | March 07, 10:39 CET
@theonetruebix | March 07, 10:43 CET
gossi | March 07, 10:45 CET
wiesengrund | March 07, 10:46 CET
I actually don't remember. I thought so, but I don't actually see it there at the moment. The promo was for T:SCC, Fringe, and Prison Break, and for all I know could have been an old one. And the timeslot thing never appeared anywhere but in the video page's description column.
ETA that I take back the part about not seeing it posted now. It's right here. In the end, it becomes an ad for Fox on Demand. As said, the timeslot weirdness only appears in the description, so I suspect it's a typo, but it is what caused the rumor.
[ edited by The One True b!X on 2009-03-07 19:52 ]
@theonetruebix | March 07, 10:49 CET
doubtful guest | March 07, 10:52 CET
phlebotinin | March 07, 10:57 CET
baxter | March 07, 10:59 CET
b!X, cheers. I've sent that on to somebody to clarify with FOX. If Dollhouse is moved to 8pm as that description suggests, it's completely and utterly screwed.
gossi | March 07, 11:01 CET
helcat | March 07, 11:11 CET
doubtful guest | March 07, 11:12 CET
From a creative perspective, the only thing that matters is if anybody ends up loving the show. Right now, I'm not feeling a love, but I'm pretty sure it will come from some people, around about episode 7.
gossi | March 07, 11:21 CET
Septimus | March 07, 11:23 CET
helcat | March 07, 11:26 CET
helcat, I've asked FOX directly if they will be moving Dollhouse to counter Battlestar taking it's viewers - they said no.
[ edited by gossi on 2009-03-07 20:28 ]
gossi | March 07, 11:27 CET
helcat | March 07, 11:28 CET
FOX got beaten by "MyNetworkTV" last night. I don't even know who MyNetworkTV are.
gossi | March 07, 11:29 CET
helcat | March 07, 11:32 CET
Pretty_Hate_Machine | March 07, 11:38 CET
gossi | March 07, 11:39 CET
Does anyone know if Fox would consider moving Dollhouse to Tuesday following American Idol? That would definitely improve the ratings, wouldn't it? Which is, honestly, a very sad reflection on society today. *even bigger sigh*
BuffyGroupie | March 07, 11:44 CET
getting a second season.
That's just not true; on a Friday at 9 on Fox, its still not getting bad numbers. What's important is whether it holds steady/grows or trends further down. Its too early to call it, and Reilly intends to air all 13. Lat I heard the show was getting good enough demo numbers for the advertisers to stay happy and happy advertisers = happy network.
zeitgeist | March 07, 11:53 CET
A year ago FOX aired a House repeat and got several million more viewers. This year they've paid several million dollars instead and are now getting knocked out of the big networks for the night.
[ edited by gossi on 2009-03-07 20:58 ]
gossi | March 07, 11:57 CET
zeitgeist | March 07, 12:04 CET
gossi | March 07, 12:11 CET
zeitgeist | March 07, 12:15 CET
[ edited by narky on 2009-03-07 21:19 ]
narky | March 07, 12:18 CET
*crickets*
embers | March 07, 12:19 CET
They really should have kept to the original plan of pairing it with 24 on Mondays.
SteveJ2008 | March 07, 12:19 CET
gossi | March 07, 12:21 CET
zeitgeist | March 07, 12:21 CET
Right now, I'm just trying to prepare myself for the strong possibility that one season is all we'll get and I will definitely be glad to get that. If somehow, this turns around and a second season does happen, then that will be an extremely pleasant surprise.
SteveJ2008 | March 07, 12:32 CET
The problem is we don't know which way they are leaning and can only speculate based off of bits and pieces and turns of phrase. It's all highly unscientific and unpredictable and arbitrary. However, the DVD is going to rock. That I know for a fact. :-)
IrrationaliTV | March 07, 12:40 CET
Y'ever stay home sick from work/school and wonder who watches all the wierd daytime programming that makes Judge Judy and Passions look like Eugene O'Neill? and then you realize that all the ads are for disability lawyers and commemmorative plates and you realize that you've entered the shut-in zone: the programming aimed at all those people (and we've all probably got a beloved extended family member who sorta falls into this camp) who are chronically homebound and not particularly canny. Some are elderly, some have true and unfortunate disabilities, some are at the true a** end of the economic spectrum. Now, especially when you factor economics, fixed incomes, and such into this and realize there is still a huge chunk of people who truly cannot afford cable (as opposed to those hip young souls who either temporarily can't budget or don't choose to budget cable or similar),and who watch whatever is broadcast that is the least unsettling to their comprehesion level. As more, for lack of a better word, sophisticated viewers flee in greater numbers to cable, the web, movie premieres, whatever on a relatively low-viewer night like Friday, the shut-in category of viewers comes to represent a larger and larger fraction of the broadcast-watching audience, and they are watching nice safe fare on MyNetworkTV or whatever.
If that were true, there is one level on which this particular chunk of the audience becomes a somewhat artificial comparison point for the success of fare on the more high-cachet networks (appropriate irony that Fox falls into this category). If this were true, and I were the network numbercruncher whiz kid, I would be much more impressed by X sets of eyeballs on a small interesting show on Fox than on 2X sets of eyeballs on "MyNetworkTV."
Though it may sound unbelievable, my goal here is not to snark the "shut-ins" for their taste, but to ask about a trend I suspect. At the same time (full disclosure), one piece of evidence that leads me to wonder about this is that, while I have friends, family members, and co-workers who I respect, but who have, by my snobbish standards, absolutely awful taste in television and other media, I really don't recall any of them raving about "MyNetworkTV" or some of the other stuff you see on some of these off-brand networks so I'm at a bit of a loss for who watches this stuff.
P.S. I would not think that the WB, circa 1997, would fit my definition of an "off-brand network" -- it was small (hence I agree with the point above about comparing early Buffy ratings to Dollhouse Ratings) but it was a new network aggressively trying to carve out an enviable niche, which is a different sort of thing.
ETA: ok, gotta admit that, if it was WWE that was on MyNetworkTV, that undercuts a good chunk of my argument -- that is exactly the sort of program my snobbish standards abhor but that is still "real" rather than "shut-in" TV.
[ edited by doubtful guest on 2009-03-07 21:45 ]
doubtful guest | March 07, 12:41 CET
doubtful, MyNetworkTV has WWE Wrestling against Dollhouse. Wrestling is hugely successful.
[ edited by gossi on 2009-03-07 21:44 ]
gossi | March 07, 12:42 CET
As for MyNetworkTV beating NBC some nights that is also evidence of the ratings disaster that NBC has become this season.
helcat | March 07, 12:58 CET
Talk about MyNetworkTV is silly. They have one show. Wrestling. Wrestling on Friday nights is a (at least) 4 decade long tradition. It doesn't matter what network it is on, the same folks will tune into wrestling on Friday nights no matter what. It is a constant and should be ignored in any evaluation of other shows on Friday nights.
[ edited by TamaraC on 2009-03-07 22:40 ]
IrrationaliTV | March 07, 13:38 CET
But when I got home I watched them both on my DVR and thought they were the best episodes in a while. Terminator has been too caught up with Sarah Conner lately and I was glad to see an episode about the other characters.
I still like the second Dollhouse best, but I always loved the most dangerous game scenario.
Jayne's Hat | March 07, 13:45 CET
I, too, was at Watchmen.
[ edited by gossi on 2009-03-07 22:52 ]
gossi | March 07, 13:52 CET
IrrationaliTV | March 07, 14:12 CET
Sunfire | March 07, 14:26 CET
Some of DH's dropoff can be attributed to its lead-in getting weaker ratings now: with fewer people watching the 8pm show, there are fewer people to get "hooked" into the 9pm show.
Ronald_SF | March 07, 14:26 CET
Dana5140 | March 07, 14:26 CET
Dana, FOX would never come out and say they plan to keep Dollhouse 'cos they don't want to piss us off. They don't give a flying fuck what we think. What are we gonna do, write them a letter? The reality is, they're waiting it out for now.
[ edited by gossi on 2009-03-07 23:29 ]
gossi | March 07, 14:27 CET
IrrationaliTV | March 07, 14:39 CET
Riker | March 07, 14:55 CET
Dude, what century are you living in? We're gonna blog about them! With snark!
They're trembling in their boots!
snot monster from outer space | March 07, 14:57 CET
It won't affect the ratings.
IrrationaliTV | March 07, 14:58 CET
@theonetruebix | March 07, 15:01 CET
Ricardo L. | March 07, 15:02 CET
2. Anyone have a general idea on the cost of a Dollhouse episode? Demographics and advert revenue are key but so is cost. I seem to recall the cancellation of Firefly being in part because of how expensive the show was, specifically all the high quality CGI.
3. FOX executives are well aware of Joss' devoted fans and their eagerness to throw money at DVD's and all things Joss. This should make Dollhouse DVR numbers sexier to them than other shows' numbers. They offer "reasonable" expectations of ancillary revenue to any advertising [shortfall of] revenue they are currently [not] making for a Friday night.
4. While interviews with FOX executives have been anything but glowing, I can honestly say that I have seen more promos for Dollhouse than I ever saw for Firefly. That pleases me.
I am optimistic. I think the episodes are improving. For the first time "Gray Hour" gave me an engagement that was fun and interesting, and thus a complete episode worth watching. I think this has to be the norm for Dollhouse to reach beyond the core of Whedon fans. Mythology is great, and absolutely the foundation of Joss' shows, but it was the only thing of interest to me in the first three episodes.
Final thoughts:
I don't have any problem connecting with the character of Echo. Even with the wipes, we are still getting to see her grow. And I am sure we will see plenty of Caroline as season 1 proceeds.
If I have one eensy teensy bit of concern about the Dollhouse premise, it is that I am 100% certain that 95%+ of engagements would be for the singular purpose of love/romance/sordid worshipful sex.
I don't wan't a five minute explanation at the beginning of every episode arguing for why a doll is necessary, but I do want to "feel" that their involvement is reasonable. Echo as a midwife? Sure I can rack my brain to find plausible explanations, but this is not just a throwaway for me, it is a disconnect.
[ edited by lottalettuce on 2009-03-08 00:11 ]
[ edited by lottalettuce on 2009-03-08 00:14 ]
lottalettuce | March 07, 15:10 CET
SteppeMerc | March 07, 15:13 CET
Considering that it's only a fraction of BSG fans who have to choose between BSG and Dollhouse at the moment I'd say there's very little chance of a significant audience gain due to this.
3. FOX executives are well aware of Joss' devoted fans and their eagerness to throw money at DVD's and all things Joss. This should make Dollhouse DVR numbers sexier to them than other shows' numbers. They offer "reasonable" expectations of ancillary revenue to any advertising [shortfall of] revenue they are currently [not] making for a Friday night.
FOX the network have paid for the show, they aren't getting anything back directly other than the ad revenue, FOX the producers get the money from DVDs. Now the lure of great DVD sales could lead the production arm to offer the next season at a discount to the network but I think it'd be highly unusual if they did anything to offset the money the network has already paid for season 1.
helcat | March 07, 15:27 CET
I was just looking at the official Dollhouse site and saw a "Whose songs are those?" link. Took me to Kimberly Cole's myspace page and immediately started playing "Superstar" which is the main song from episode 3 "Stage Fright". Apparently that was just one of three songs she contributed to the episode.
Then I tried to watch the sneak peak of her appearance in the self-same epsisode that she so excitedly linked for her fans and I got Pffhhhtttt! "This video has been removed due to terms of use violation".
So immediately I go from total admiration of FOX's ability to network the show to @#!@@!. Dunno if it is their fault or someone else's but that was just sad.
lottalettuce | March 07, 15:36 CET
Seriously? In todays market, the network gets nothing from DVD sales other than the hope of expanding viewership for future seasons? What about viewers like me that don't watch shows like "24" or "Lost" each week because it is just sooooooo much more easy and enjoyable to wait and watch several eps at a time on DVD.
lottalettuce | March 07, 15:43 CET
helcat | March 07, 15:55 CET
20th makes shows for many different networks to air. Burn Notice on USA, How I Met Your Mother and The Unit on CBS, My Name is Earl on NBC, Boston Legal and Better off Ted on ABC. And Fox Broadcasting buys shows from other studios. House is from Universal, TSCC and Fringe is from Warner Brothers. All the reality stuff is made by other studios/production companies including American Idol.
Long story, short. They are separate companies.
IrrationaliTV | March 07, 15:56 CET
Now the lure of great DVD sales could lead the production arm to offer the next season at a discount to the network but I think it'd be highly unusual if they did anything to offset the money the network has already paid for season 1.
I hope that FOX the production company and Fox the Network being part of the same corp might try to find a way to make get it to work if they think Dollhouse would really add very significant merchandise revenue (especially if they would offset higher production cost while the show keeps pulling in higher number than cheap reality crap would). Not that sure though :(. Dollhouse also seems a bit less merchandise friendly than Buffy, Angel and Firefly were.
Looking forward to watching the fourth ep. nicee to hear so many positive reactions.
ETA: Hadn't read TamaraC comment yet. I'm affraid you're right. Though I have read a lot of stories about things like the WB not renewing Angel partly because it was owned by FOX and FOX reviving Family Guy because of merchandise sales and keeping renewing the Simpsons for similar reasons, so maybe sometimes there is are some exceptions. Afraid Dollhouse won't even be that special merchandise wise though :(.
Oh and Gossi FOX responded to your letter with an actual anwser? (Not that you're crazy for trying, actually I love you for trying, just a tiny bit suprised they had the decency to respond and not just in a thank you for your thoughts... way) What did they say exactly?
[ edited by the Groosalugg on 2009-03-08 01:07 ]
[ edited by the Groosalugg on 2009-03-08 01:07 ]
the Groosalugg | March 07, 15:59 CET
gossi, I'm sorry to say that I agree fully with you; the network could give a fark about us devoted Whedon fans. However, I agree with you lottalettuce, I think that DVD sales should give at least some incentive for Fox to consider renewal. If they are expecting Firefly numbers, then I'd say the show has a decent chance for renewal.
And finally, my favorite thing about this episode:
What I like about Joss shows - and it's sort of become a dying art form - is his ability to use the "less is more" technique in his psychological horror. Alpha frightened me more in this episode than in any other - and we never see him once. (Much like the Reavers.) I was scared because Topher was scared.
Oh, and I also see Boyd as a Giles/Willow hybrid - in that he assumes both the father roll, and the emotional in for the audience. I think I loved Echo in this episode a little more just because Boyd did.
So far: Loving the Hell out of this show!!!!
Guess I was a little all over the place with this post :P
[ edited by crhobbs42 on 2009-03-08 01:07 ]
crhobbs42 | March 07, 16:04 CET
Little Green Kid | March 07, 16:11 CET
[ edited by Dana5140 on 2009-03-08 14:48 ]
Dana5140 | March 07, 16:13 CET
@theonetruebix | March 07, 16:28 CET
I agree that the show is likely to get even better at episode six, but I worry that by then it may be too late. With a combination of poor (and falling) numbers for the first five weeks, and the fact that no one may be left to see it by then (except us), I fear it may be a case of too little, too late.
[ edited by crhobbs42 on 2009-03-08 01:32 ]
crhobbs42 | March 07, 16:31 CET
b!X, he said they were looking at airing ep 6 after AI a few weeks ago. They're not. I actually went straight to him and asked, and they're not. I don't know who that dude is, just he's a funny guy. He's saying there's a 33% chance now. Nice odds!
[ edited by gossi on 2009-03-08 01:32 ]
gossi | March 07, 16:31 CET
Smackdown is in the first year of a two year deal. There is real talk of the show moving over to WGN America when the deal is over. In the meantime, expect a roughly 2.5 rating on Fridays for WWE, with 95% of them "in the demo." (Though they are beginning to skew younger than in years past.)
FWIW: I may be the entire crossover market between Joss' shows and the Land of Vince McMahon. =)
Andrea 2s1 | March 07, 16:32 CET
baxter | March 07, 17:10 CET
helcat | March 07, 17:16 CET
I mean this in the nicest possible way, my friend - "Fail!" ;)
ETA - re: lead-ins - More than 2/3rds of the U.S. viewers don't own a DVR and is more likely to watch the next show on a station they are already tuned to if it at all interests them. Google away.
zeitgeist | March 07, 17:18 CET
or what zeitgeist just said.
[ edited by TamaraC on 2009-03-08 02:23 ]
IrrationaliTV | March 07, 17:22 CET
A reasonable DVR portion of the audience - not all of them, but enough - skip adverts. Therefore, advertisers pay less.
Unfortunately, a lead-in makes a huge difference. For example, everybody is now watching "Lie To Me" (numbers wise), to see what it does when it decouples with American Idol.
gossi | March 07, 17:23 CET
Would either of you know what the chances of changing DH's lead in look like?
crhobbs42 | March 07, 17:25 CET
ETA - Well, its lead-in is about to be Prison Break.
[ edited by zeitgeist on 2009-03-08 02:26 ]
zeitgeist | March 07, 17:26 CET
gossi | March 07, 17:26 CET
@theonetruebix | March 07, 17:29 CET
crhobbs42 | March 07, 17:30 CET
crhobbs42 | March 07, 17:31 CET
gossi | March 07, 17:33 CET
crhobbs42 | March 07, 17:34 CET
@theonetruebix | March 07, 17:34 CET
helcat | March 07, 17:35 CET
And no, crhobbs42, there is no truth to a timeslot switch.
IrrationaliTV | March 07, 17:35 CET
I don't know if the show will return in January 2010 or not (as apparently that would be the target). Variety describe it as 'on the bubble', and I'll go for that still. There's no consensus.
[ edited by gossi on 2009-03-08 02:38 ]
gossi | March 07, 17:37 CET
Sorry about that, my bad.
crhobbs42 | March 07, 17:37 CET
[ edited by The One True b!X on 2009-03-08 02:40 ]
@theonetruebix | March 07, 17:40 CET
Does this mean that the show will be coming back in September?
(I know it's a stretch, but I had to reach...)
crhobbs42 | March 07, 17:45 CET
I also skip Idol and watch Lie To Me (my favorite new show). I DVR them both but I also watch them at the same time if I am home.
Okay, so maybe I am not the typical viewer, but I am the demo they seem to care so much about.
lottalettuce | March 07, 17:46 CET
It's too bad about SCC, I thought yesterday's episode was really good.
hacksaway | March 07, 17:57 CET
IrrationaliTV | March 07, 18:11 CET
gossi | March 07, 18:12 CET
University of Maryland men's basketball is on the bubble to make the NCAA tournament, which will begin on March 19, and Dollhouse. I just hope I don't confuse the two and think Dollhouse is on the verge of making the NCAA's and airing on CBS, and UM basketball ends up being on Fox.
crazygolfa | March 07, 18:13 CET
I wonder if you could imprint five actives to win the NCAA tournament or even the NBA finals, would that be cheaper than paying a roster of NBA players 60-70 million dollars to win it all. Although paying to have five actives play on your team probably goes against every single NCAA bylaw known. If I was Mark Cuban, I would definitely pay the Dollhouse an extraordinary amount of money to create a roster of NBA actives, combining the skills of the all-time greats at each position.
crazygolfa | March 07, 18:23 CET
Scheduling the revamped Virtuality with Dollhouse on Friday nights would be heaven as far as I am concerned.
And yes, I think about this entirely too much. Fun for a TV geek on a Saturday night.
[ edited by TamaraC on 2009-03-08 03:33 ]
IrrationaliTV | March 07, 18:30 CET
Nice idea. We don't know how much an active costs just yet, so it might not be cheaper for a whole roster. Plus I am thinking low visibility is a key factor in which engagements actives are allowed to partake. Wouldn't want a friend/family member (or the demonic law firm they are hiding from) to recognize them.
How about this? One marginal amateur basketball player with a professional sized body goes to Dollhouse and submits to being an active so he can get the skills. Dollhouse keeps most of the money (someone in the organization would act as agent for contracts and promotional deals). The player, after his 5 year stint, gets the reputation of being an all-time great. He won't recall any of it of course but all the games could be recorded for him to watch later.
Probably would later regret selling his soul, so to speak, but I would bet anything that there would be peeps that would go for the idea. Could even be a nice parable about steroids.
This could even work into Adelle's whole "we're doing the world a service" philosophy. The player would be a humble, quiet-spoken (reclusive), philanthropic example for all other athletes to live by. And yes, I am aware of the devious irony.
Personally, I think we are going to find out that extended engagements are problematic. Deteriorating neural composites or some such... Treatments will have diminishing returns so to speak. Alpha's schizophrenia could even be an example of what happens to someone when too many imprints are present for too long.
After all, tabula rasa isn't really tabula rasa.
lottalettuce | March 07, 19:31 CET
dnlmglhs | March 07, 19:38 CET
IrrationaliTV | March 07, 19:46 CET
dnlmglhs | March 07, 20:02 CET
iowagirl | March 07, 20:09 CET
(See, this is how rumors and gossip start!)
I am just a little frustrated at the apparent huge drop in viewing numbers, but then again, many reviews posted here explicitly stated they'd only give the show 2 or 3 episodes to hook them. Still, what is it with these people who would rather watch ugly guys in spandex jumping all over each other, than watch a work of genuine wit, talent, and thought provoking themes?!
missb | March 07, 20:34 CET
zee | March 07, 20:47 CET
I'm more hopeful for Dollhouse than a lot of people. I'm hopeful because of Hulu. I think that the internet TV format is really starting to take off, and that network execs must be starting to realize that the computer replacing television is inevitable.
That changes the equation. If I were a Fox exec, even if my concern was 100% bottom line, I would hesitate to kill any show with half decent numbers that had internet (Hulu, Itunes) and geek popularity while the methods of distrubiting entertainment were in such heavy flux.
Celluloid Novelist | March 07, 22:03 CET
@theonetruebix | March 07, 22:16 CET
Ronald_SF | March 07, 22:17 CET
IrrationaliTV | March 07, 23:01 CET
@theonetruebix | March 07, 23:10 CET
IrrationaliTV | March 08, 00:15 CET
Ivalaine | March 08, 00:30 CET
IrrationaliTV | March 08, 00:41 CET
[ edited by willbueche on 2009-03-08 10:08 ]
will.bueche | March 08, 01:07 CET
Unless some new amazing show is launched next fall, I won't have anything to watch next season: BSG will be over and TtSCC and DH will be gone. Yay.
nyrk | March 08, 03:43 CET
Are that many people really such zombies? No wonder Joss's shows have such a hard time making it, they require a basic level of intelligence, awareness and the ability to engage with something that doesn't involve people making total asses of themselves, "reality" shows or otherwise.
Right now I'm firmly in the Bill Mahr "people are just stupid" corner.
Shey | March 08, 03:50 CET
...
Well. Me too.
IT'S FOX! What were you people expecting? DIFFERENT behavior? If you manage to pin the tail on a real donkey, he's still gonna kick you halfway to Cleveland. EVERY. TIME.
Sure, since the Firefly Fiasco, they've completely fired anyone remotely responsible for that at the Fox Network, and their replacements, probably a half dozen times over by now. Whoever was there then isn't there now. We shouldn't have a right to presume the same thing will happen.
However, this counterintuitive behavior on the part of the Fox Network of canceling promising shows (particularly heavy scifi) or putting them on terrible nights where failure is inevitable has been indicative practically since the network's inception. Does anyone remember the awesome scifi western action comedy Brisco County Junior with Bruce Campbell? Of course not! Why? BECAUSE FOX CANCELED IT!
Oh. This time it'll be different! Sure! I say that every time I buy a lottery ticket. Do I look rich to you?
The only time FOX ever got it right was with The X-Files. And it wasn't for lack of trying to kill it. They moved that show around and gave it horrendous time slots and pre-empted it every chance they got, yet it survived until well after it should have been put to pasture. Once. Fox got it right once.
Hopefully Dollhouse will make it to enough episodes to warrant a DVD set. Maybe we can hope for another motion picture someday, though somehow I doubt it. Joss had the right idea with Dr. Horrible. Skip television. Cut out the middleman. Make the story you want to tell, and ship it straight to your audience through the Internet and DVD sales. It's the only way. If Whedon EVER says yes to television again after this, he's a glutton for punishment and I probably won't hop on board that crazy train next time.
Television, while not dead, is a festering pile of twitching zombie body parts. It should be set on fire so people with cameras in their cellphones can watch it burn, and then upload the videos to YouTube.
ZachsMind | March 08, 04:02 CET
In my mind the writing in Dollhouse after 4 episodes doesn't warrant paying for the DVD set and I say that as an Whedon DVD completist, much less a movie. If the quality really does jump dramatically things might change but at the moment the ratings are the least of the shows problems.
When a great show have crappy ratings it's a problem when a subpar show have bad ratings it's just a fact of life.
[ edited by jpr on 2009-03-08 12:54 ]
jpr | March 08, 04:44 CET
Wasn't there some story about some small comedies on NBC, say.... 30 Rock and The Office that got renewed despite horrible ratings in the first season partially due to great iTunes-sales? By some Kevin Reilly?
(I know, I know.... The situation is very different. And certainly not present day.)
wiesengrund | March 08, 05:51 CET
I will always have my DVD boxed set. And my distrust of Fox.
redeem147 | March 08, 06:06 CET
I can see my copy from where I'm sitting :) and I still say (as a fan of 30 Rock, Friday Night Lights and several other shows that are still on the air because of Kevin Reilly) that Dollhouse's best chance on a "Big Four" network today is at Fox. Would I prefer it have been on a cable network where its current numbers would guarantee it like 5 years no questions asked? Sure.
zeitgeist | March 08, 06:49 CET
The real problem here goes well beyond DH. It is in the nature of how this medium is changing and the implications this has for the future of TV. I do not own a DVR, do not want one, and believe that even heavy DVR use of a specific show means little since people can skip the adverts, which is how the shows make money. I suspect that we will see the full season of DH and no more, so that a full DVD set can be released. But hulu and iTunes, they don't much help the bottom line here. And when it comes to shows with high production values (and costs) like DH, unless there is a real good ROI, they just don't make it.
Dana5140 | March 08, 06:56 CET
zeitgeist | March 08, 07:08 CET
chazman | March 08, 07:20 CET
Also, I see that while they're not among the top two highest rated or most popular episodes on Fox On Demand, both Terminator and Dollhouse are "Featured". I assume this means Fox is making a point of promoting them on the website?
JMaloney | March 08, 08:00 CET
[ edited by Squishy on 2009-03-08 16:23 ]
Squishy | March 08, 08:00 CET
Spacegirl3200 | March 08, 09:30 CET
I was waiting for this to start. The fact that there's trouble afoot doesn't mean trouble being afoot was inevitable, nor does it automatically mean all the knee-jerk, reflexive, and reactionary "oh, no not FOX!" cries when this deal were struck had any merit.
[ edited by The One True b!X on 2009-03-08 19:04 ]
@theonetruebix | March 08, 11:04 CET
Whatever the pros and cons of the way the Fox Broadcasting Company goes about its business, I would find this very hard to believe.
alien lanes | March 08, 11:58 CET
Like others have said, Salvation will undoubtedly have at least some positive effect on SCCs viewing figures so I hope they keep it alive long enough to find out.
ChromeShark | March 08, 13:59 CET
My point is that while the raw numbers at this time are not going to be enough to save a show, someday soon, Hulu and download numbers will be the most important things because a minority of people under 50 will watch TV the old way. If I were an exec thinking about the future, I would be more hesitant than usual to get rid of anything on the bubble that dominated in those formats.
Celluloid Novelist | March 08, 14:16 CET
The point that I am trying to make is that Salvation will not have any effect on SCC. At WonderCon, Josh Friedman made it very clear that show will not tie any current or new storylines to the movie. That maybe there was a opportunity to attract new veiwers, epecially with the move to Fridays. It's really too bad.....
Spacegirl3200 | March 08, 15:04 CET
helcat | March 08, 15:09 CET
The Terminator movie comes out after this series has finished airing (like, over a month after). So whilst it can be argued it may boost viewers, the show won't actually be on the air.
gossi | March 08, 15:14 CET
Celluloid Novelist | March 08, 15:18 CET
As a child I was raised on Nickelodeon and the Disney channel. Basically I would keep those channels on for as long as I was allowed to watch TV (which was as long as I wanted, until my parents finally made me go to bed so they could watch the Howard Stern show). So if Ren and Stimpy came after Doug, that's what I watched next. I would only change the channel if something I didn't like came on next.
I graduated to the WB when I was twelve to watch Buffy. I watched Dawson's Creek because it came on after Buffy, and was promoted heavily during that show. In fact I sampled nearly everything the WB had to offer in those years until Buffy moved to UPN. I can't even remember what show followed, but I came just to watch Buffy and then left.
When I watch cable TV today, I follow the same pattern. I can't think how many TV show pilots I watched when I was a regular viewer of Grey's Anatomy, simply because they came on shortly and didn't look bad and I didn't have anything else to watch. Using a show I watched as a lead in meant I was already on my couch, I already had the channel on, and I didn't really have anything else to do (usually). Otherwise I would have never gone out of my way to watch these shows on a different night, for instance. I saw the pilot of Chuck because it came on after Heroes.
Unless something ties me to a new show, like an actor I like or a showrunner I respect, then the only way I've seen it is if it comes on after something I am already watching. I don't think there's anything that complicated or "zombie"ish about it.
The only channel I don't really do this for, for some reason, is HBO. I come, watch my Six Feet Under, or these days True Blood or Flight of the Conchords or Big Love, and go. I think though that's usually because a movie or repeat programming is usually on after these shows. I know they've used the lead-in principal before, and I think I was once roped into watching John From Cincinnati, but that was a fluke. There's also no commercials on HBO during the show to get me interested in what's coming after.
Fox has not really given this show much support, but right now the only thing about the show that could possibly warrant it is Joss Whedon and his past reputation. Dollhouse is just not that engaging for me. I should be a locked in fan, as I own DVDs of nearly all of Joss Whedon's work. But I don't blindly adore everything he's ever done, and in fact I stopped watching Buffy (a show that defined my adolescence) in the early days of the seventh season. I watched DH live on Friday, but I was easily distracted by feeding the dogs, fixing snacks, etc. It was mildly interesting, and mildly interesting is not enough to keep me watching week after week week. Also, if anyone is scrambling for something to watch for next year, all the shows above are smoking. I would be very sad if every show out there catered to the common tastes of one demographic, internet, shut-in, or otherwise. As an eclectic TV watcher, I have found that HBO and Showtime are my friends. Soothe your Dollhouse upset with a little Dexter and Big Love. I personally hope the HBO dramas are the TRUE future of TV, because as fun as Dr. Horrible was (and it was very, very fun) such romps could never replace the great shows like Six Feet Under.
ailiel | March 08, 15:39 CET
Frankly while I love HBO's ability to have cursing, violence and sex (though sometimes it seems that those things are mandated in, rather than serving the plot) my favorite shows are on normal TV currently - Lost, BSG (though that's going soon), and Dollhouse. Normal TV is still where the best television writers are, for better or worse. As evidenced by the previously mentioned shows (though sometimes Lost seems to hire inferior writers for some reason).
HBO also suffers from not supporting their good historical shows (Deadwood), and tolerating such historical inaccurate monstrosities like Rome. Even Rome could have been good, with all of its issues if it didn't have all the big movers and shakers and focused on the average, criminal aspects of Rome.
That said I do hope that the live action Star Wars television show will be on HBO rather than normal cable.
SteppeMerc | March 08, 19:20 CET
I watch what I want to watch, change channels, and if there's nothing on that interests me, stick in a DVD.
Oh, and I did another poll, this time on DVRs. While a few people on my LJ are over fifty (including me), most aren't.
DVR usage
redeem147 | March 08, 19:33 CET
korkster | March 09, 11:57 CET
Septimus | March 09, 12:00 CET
gossi | March 09, 12:01 CET
It's all hypothetical, so we don't really know.
Septimus | March 09, 12:31 CET
Well that just irks me. Comparing the first 4 episodes of Fringe & Dollhouse... Dollhouse was way stronger in its mythology and making me wanting to care than Fringe.
As it stands now, I have more investment into the backstories in Dollhouse than I do with Fringe. It's been half a season and they still haven't come around to what the goal of General Dynamics is. They were playing the "baddies", but now they're working with the government? And ??? Trying to weasel out what's going on with the overall conspiracy and such gives me a headache.
I like Fringe. It shows promise, but quality/investment-wise, Dollhouse is superior.
Now I wish they'd switch the two shows to see which one does better (give it two weeks). That'd make me happy. :)
korkster | March 09, 17:30 CET