"Because, sir, to be blunt, the last time you became complacent about your existence turned out rather badly."
March 28
2009
(SPOILER)
Discuss the seventh episode of Dollhouse.
Titled 'Echoes', this episode is written by Sarah Fain and Elizabeth Craft. And if you missed it, the episode is now available to watch at
Fox on Demand and
Hulu and is available for purchase on
iTunes.
Simon
| Dollhouse
| 01:06 CET
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328 comments total
| tags: dollhouse, sarah fain, elizabeth craft, echoes
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Getting.
Exciiiiiiited.
Squishy | March 28, 01:12 CET
This is me, with my overactive imagination.
UnpluggedCrazy | March 28, 01:23 CET
I'm Dollhouse's bitch now.
[ edited by electricspacegirl on 2009-03-28 01:25 ]
electricspacegirl | March 28, 01:24 CET
JerrodBalzer | March 28, 01:31 CET
SteveP | March 28, 01:33 CET
KingofCretins | March 28, 01:53 CET
jaxn | March 28, 01:54 CET
Ameer | March 28, 01:57 CET
Chrisham2 | March 28, 02:01 CET
Rikardo | March 28, 02:03 CET
KingofCretins | March 28, 02:07 CET
Chrisham2 | March 28, 02:09 CET
Miracle Laurie really is gorgeous. And I really love her shirt. I want that shirt. I like that they're all relationshippy, even though they haven't actually been together that long.
I like that she's being used to throw him off the case, though whether that's the programming talking or "her" being in love with Paul.
What's with the skeevy guy from "Ghost" who wants to make a video? Ugh, wretched.
Awesome...so Alice used to go to the college! Or was it Caroline...oooooh.
[ edited by The Ninja Report on 2009-03-28 02:13 ]
The Ninja Report | March 28, 02:11 CET
josswhedonaddict | March 28, 02:14 CET
KingofCretins | March 28, 02:14 CET
crazygolfa | March 28, 02:15 CET
Sly | March 28, 02:15 CET
gossi | March 28, 02:15 CET
KingofCretins | March 28, 02:19 CET
FaithsTruCalling | March 28, 02:21 CET
fortunateizzi | March 28, 02:22 CET
KingofCretins | March 28, 02:22 CET
And also, we can now safely assume that Boyd isn't a doll because it looks like he is affected by the memory juice.
[ edited by crazygolfa on 2009-03-28 02:23 ]
crazygolfa | March 28, 02:22 CET
SteveP | March 28, 02:23 CET
josswhedonaddict | March 28, 02:28 CET
I didn't just say that.
josswhedonaddict | March 28, 02:28 CET
Sly | March 28, 02:29 CET
Nolan | March 28, 02:29 CET
josswhedonaddict | March 28, 02:29 CET
whedon is GOD | March 28, 02:32 CET
josswhedonaddict | March 28, 02:33 CET
fortunateizzi | March 28, 02:34 CET
Chrisham2 | March 28, 02:34 CET
I'm surprised, considering that it is Fain & Craft writing and Contner directing. (IMDB says Minear directing, but I thought I saw different in the credits.)
OneTeV | March 28, 02:35 CET
thegingerpire | March 28, 02:35 CET
KingofCretins | March 28, 02:35 CET
SQUEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
doubtful guest | March 28, 02:35 CET
JerrodBalzer | March 28, 02:35 CET
whedon is GOD | March 28, 02:37 CET
[ edited by josswhedonaddict on 2009-03-28 02:40 ]
josswhedonaddict | March 28, 02:40 CET
dorkie99 | March 28, 02:41 CET
thegingerpire | March 28, 02:41 CET
josswhedonaddict | March 28, 02:43 CET
josswhedonaddict | March 28, 02:45 CET
whedon is GOD | March 28, 02:45 CET
fortunateizzi | March 28, 02:45 CET
josswhedonaddict | March 28, 02:51 CET
mirrorshades | March 28, 02:51 CET
thegingerpire | March 28, 02:52 CET
And Boyd really, really likes that right hook.
OneTeV | March 28, 02:53 CET
whedon is GOD | March 28, 02:53 CET
dorkie99 | March 28, 02:53 CET
josswhedonaddict | March 28, 02:55 CET
josswhedonaddict | March 28, 02:57 CET
dorkie99 | March 28, 02:58 CET
josswhedonaddict | March 28, 02:58 CET
pat32082 | March 28, 02:59 CET
josswhedonaddict | March 28, 02:59 CET
fortunateizzi | March 28, 02:59 CET
dorkie99 | March 28, 03:00 CET
whedon is GOD | March 28, 03:00 CET
josswhedonaddict | March 28, 03:00 CET
thegingerpire | March 28, 03:01 CET
BTW: next week's ep looks awesome!
SteveP | March 28, 03:02 CET
RavenU | March 28, 03:02 CET
josswhedonaddict | March 28, 03:04 CET
We have heard Adele mention the five year mission more than once. I wonder if the Dolls are memory-glitching because they've been working longer than that. If the Dollhouse is ethically challenged, what would stop them from *not* ending the engagements at the fifth year?
OneTeV | March 28, 03:04 CET
doubtful guest | March 28, 03:05 CET
narky | March 28, 03:06 CET
Maratanos | March 28, 03:07 CET
fortunateizzi | March 28, 03:08 CET
The reason why it spread to Adelle and Topher was because Topher probably touched the fluid at one point, thus him getting exposed. And when he touched Adelle, she got exposed.
It also explains why the Boyd and Dominic got high, it was because someone who had it touched them.
Or what Maratanos said more efficiently.
[ edited by crazygolfa on 2009-03-28 03:09 ]
crazygolfa | March 28, 03:08 CET
Riker | March 28, 03:08 CET
waxbanks | March 28, 03:09 CET
[ edited by fortunateizzi on 2009-03-28 03:10 ]
fortunateizzi | March 28, 03:09 CET
And the preview for next week's episode looks mind-blowing!
Giles'chainsawchick | March 28, 03:10 CET
waxbanks | March 28, 03:10 CET
waxbanks | March 28, 03:11 CET
Anyway, very good episode. I loved all the funny. Can't wait until next week...though the moving company will have taken my tv by then. So I won't see the episode until the next week some time. :(
Scaniano | March 28, 03:12 CET
And next weeks episode? Wow.
deadbessie | March 28, 03:12 CET
waxbanks | March 28, 03:13 CET
MoonOnAString | March 28, 03:15 CET
waxbanks | March 28, 03:15 CET
Animal Mother | March 28, 03:16 CET
He high fived November. :)
(edit - oops, beat to it while I was making my comment !)
[ edited by Sweet Fragility on 2009-03-28 03:17 ]
a little pez witch | March 28, 03:16 CET
Animal Mother | March 28, 03:20 CET
Dollhouse spreading it's madness, one conflicted and confused viewer at a time. I love it. Mess with my head some more please.
Emmie | March 28, 03:20 CET
Chris the Bloody | March 28, 03:21 CET
I feel like I finally understand who Caroline was. That little video clip of her we've been seeing made her appear so generic, I had a really hard time rooting for Echo to remember Caroline at all. Now, I'm invested in both Echo and Caroline.
The Dolls remembering traumatic things was heartbreaking. I thought more would come of Mellie remembering the whole incident with Hearn and the flowers in the vase, but I guess the promo was just misleading.
What really stung was Sierra remembering being raped. I think it was necessary too, as much as it was disturbing and emotionally painful, since in her Doll-state Sierra couldn't really deal with the gravity of being raped by Hearn in any authentic way, and here she was able to actually deal with it for the first time, even if she has to forget it all again later.
Some of the drugged-out humor seemed a little forced, especially in the first few Adelle/Topher scenes, but it grew on me. And I especially liked Dominic apologizing to Echo. That seemed really significant. Also, Boyd's piano playing was so surprising and funny!
I don't quite know what to think of Mellie leaving Ballard, but I figure she'll be back. And I'm sure we'll find out more about what Victor was remembering (his acting was great in this episode btw!), cause I know I'm interested!
Overall, fantastic episode. The show really seems to be on a roll now, given the preview for next week. I can't wait till it's Friday again!!
glorificus314 | March 28, 03:21 CET
crazygolfa | March 28, 03:22 CET
What a funny episode!
Lioness | March 28, 03:26 CET
Guess I'll have to Hulu it tomorrow.
edcsLover9 | March 28, 03:27 CET
Not sure about some of the rest of the episode, parts of the humor seemed a tad forced or awkward, as though they should have gotten another take of the same scene, or edited things a bit differently.
Scraggles | March 28, 03:33 CET
The flashbacks to Echo/Caroline's past were the real highlights to me.
The present day story with the virus was interesting and how it tied into the backround of the company but it didn't do as much for me other then for some fun highlights of the characters acting goofy.
Dominic drugged up was my personal favorite.
And the ending was a surprise with who the new active was.A good tie back to Caroline/Echo's flashbacks and how she ultimately ended an active.
Next weeks episode looks like a real burner though.
[ edited by Buffyfantic on 2009-03-28 03:38 ]
Buffyfantic | March 28, 03:36 CET
Dan Corson | March 28, 03:36 CET
I LOVED this episode. :)
thisyearsgirl | March 28, 03:36 CET
Echo saying "no" sets up the point that Boyd was tripping out, not that Boyd was fine with it or that it wasn't a big deal.
Boyd's appearance was a convenient and quick way to end the scene (and to have him slug someone again). I don't consider it deus ex machina because the scene would have worked just as well if he didn't appear there. (For example, Sam (was that the student's name?) would have run off, so we would be surprised later to see him in the Dollhouse. Echo is confused with her memories, but still stumbles to the van for Treatment.)
Sam fate was not "deserved comeuppance". It was seeing Adele as a human being for the entire episode, and then being reminded that making her more sympathetic does not make her actions any more moral.
OneTeV | March 28, 03:38 CET
glorificus314 | March 28, 03:39 CET
josswhedonaddict | March 28, 03:41 CET
I don't think there's any evidence to say they did sleep together, I just didn't get why they were so uncomfortable around each other.
glorificus314 | March 28, 03:43 CET
Animal Mother | March 28, 03:43 CET
Tymen | March 28, 03:44 CET
Also...
There's a new doll in the house.
*glances around twitchily and quietly returns to corner*
Taaroko | March 28, 03:53 CET
Rhodey | March 28, 03:58 CET
I'm digging that the show is really getting into the characters and backstory now, but I found a few things unsatisfying:
What happened to Matt? A second appearance should mean we care a little more about what happens to him, right?
Why, when Echo (Alice) was with Matt this second time, did she seem like a different person than before?What's the reason for re-using Matt if Echo was going to be implanted with a different personality? It seems like a distracting detail that didn't matter to the larger parts of the story.Why did Domenic and Adelle have the awkward discussion at the end when Adelle and Topher were the ones who shared a drug experience? Adelle and Topher's experience went unaddressed, and Domenic and Adelle addressed an experience they didn't even share.
Why did Sierra have a flashback and then not appear in the episode again?What was the purpose of Sierra's flashback? Just remembering the rape again doesn't advance the story. I think I need to watch that again; it looked like there was another scene mixed into it.What was the point of using November as the guinea pig? Yes, it showed how the drug affected actives, and started the infection within the Dollhouse, but it seemed to waste a character development opportunity to have her almost say the trigger words and then lie on the floor.
Just nitpicking because I care.
[ edited by Intelligent Calcium on 2009-03-28 04:35 ]
[ edited by Intelligent Calcium on 2009-03-28 04:41 ]
Intelligent Calcium | March 28, 03:58 CET
toast | March 28, 04:04 CET
I started getting the 'people run by dolls' vibe during it, which is something I haven't seen anyone mention (or maybe I missed it). I really liked the idea that for a while there, the programmed dolls were taking care of the crazy helpless people, and that they were doing a really good job of it.
Also yay with the funny! I got worried when Joss kept saying 'oh no, we won't have much humor because this show is strictly drama', but there's plenty of humor there.
VeryVeryCrowded | March 28, 04:08 CET
chickenbird | March 28, 04:10 CET
[ edited by whedon is GOD on 2009-03-28 04:13 ]
whedon is GOD | March 28, 04:12 CET
All the bits of Caroline`s backstory, finding out her last name, that she attended Freemont, that she was an activist that discovered stuff about Rossum and was pursued for 2 years by DeWitt before being forced to become a Doll....for a while I wondered if Leo was going to turn out to be Alpha. There were tons of `lol` funny parts as well as sad parts (traumatic flashbacks + Mellie-Paul). I loved Langton`s piano playing (wow he is good!), Dominic caressing his `soft like a kitten` jacket sleeve, not to mention the moment November uttered the first part of the code phrase and freaked out Topher and DeWitt.
IMHO this has been the best ep so far. I definitely plan to rewatch a couple times to make sure I remember all the Caroline stuff going forward!
peach | March 28, 04:12 CET
Animal Mother | March 28, 04:18 CET
Next week's looks mind-blowing.
UnpluggedCrazy | March 28, 04:26 CET
(I wonder how quickly Joss expected to reveal these plot details in his original 'velocity' of the show?)
SteveP | March 28, 04:52 CET
Some of the situations might have been forced for the funny, but they were still hilarious. Dewitt and Topher. Dominic and his soft as kittens suit.... Boyd and the piano... all good. ;)
Good to know most of the baddies aren't also dolls though. Mellie being a doll was bad enough. I'd have a fit if Boyd was too.
NYPinTA | March 28, 04:55 CET
Oh, wow, I hadn't even realized that this helped show us who isn't a doll.
snakebyte | March 28, 05:00 CET
I'm surprised people don't think this episode lived up to the bar set by last weeks. I thought it was awesome, possibly the best yet. (Next week's looks AMAZING)
Giles_314 | March 28, 05:12 CET
crazygolfa mentioned it upthread. I actually hadn't thought of it until I saw that either. I'm so glad someone's paying attention to this show. ;D
NYPinTA | March 28, 05:14 CET
The lawyer in me may just be imagining things, but I don't think Caroline agreed to "join" the Dollhouse because she wanted to forget Leo's death; I think it may have been because she could have faced prosecution for murder -- in some places, if someone dies during a crime, the person(s) who commit(s) the crime can be prosecuted for murder, even if they didn't directly cause the death. Rossum would have had the ability to cover up the crime (or at least her part in it) and offer her a way out -- that "clean slate" she and Adelle discussed in the first episode. I don't think she'll ever lose her feeling of responsibility for Leo's death (as Caroline), but I can see her deciding that the 5-year sentence was a better deal than life in prison for murder.
That line Adelle utters when having "tea" with Caroline both tonight and in the first episode -- "nothing is as it seems" -- isn't that what the Operative says to Mal (right before Inara says, "And that's not incense")?
Eileen | March 28, 05:16 CET
zee | March 28, 05:32 CET
Romo Lampkin | March 28, 05:41 CET
Class Protector | March 28, 05:43 CET
NYPinTA | March 28, 05:47 CET
I honestly feel the show keeps getting better and better. So much for people thinking the show doesn't have "the funny". As far as next week's episode with the Actives becoming self aware, obviously something keeps them in the Dollhouse. I just pray the episode or awakening event doesn't turn out to be a dream!!!!!!!!!!!
WheelsOfJoy | March 28, 05:52 CET
bunnykitty | March 28, 05:55 CET
[ edited by The One True b!X on 2009-03-28 06:12 ]
The One True b!X | March 28, 06:11 CET
savagenapkin | March 28, 06:13 CET
doubtful guest | March 28, 06:14 CET
The One True b!X | March 28, 06:14 CET
hacksaway | March 28, 06:44 CET
QUESTIONS:
1) Does anyone else get the vibe that no matter what Caroline (& Sam) decided to do with their fate, there was no way they were leaving that room without becoming a Doll? That "tea" Adelle poured for both of them seemed too ominous to be just tea... perhaps another mind-altering drug from the Rossum Corporation?
2) Sierra DID have more than one memory unlocked. Besides the rape with Hearn, there was also some other memory involving a soldier (?) and a woman covered in cloth. If the woman covered in cloth was Sierra, it seemed to me that she was also being raped. How crappy would it be if the whole reason Sierra signed on was to *forget* about the rape... only to have the one person she *trusts* rape her again? WTF?
3) I love Adelle. I love Dominic. My feelings for these people are very different than what they were when I first started watching Dollhouse. I kind of wonder if we're mistaking the "dependable partner" relationship with a "romantic" relationship. They can be close professionally, and seeing/knowing/acting unprofessional in front of their partners can be quite awkward later. What I thought was neat was that Adelle seems very relaxed with Topher. Very cool.
4) OMG DID ANYONE SEE THE WORD "JOSS" ON THE SIDE OF ECHO'S MOTORCYCLE? The camera hovers over it. Great Easter egg!
5) I'm confused about what to think about Mellie & Paul. Is Mellie moving out by *her* choice, or did the Dollhouse program her to move out? I knew the relationship wouldn't last, but this went quicker than I thought. Guess it's better that she's leaving him, anyway.
6) When Sierra (after freaking out) collides with Victor, does he SHARE the same memory with her? Hmm.
LOVE IT!!!
korkster | March 28, 06:45 CET
hacksaway | March 28, 06:50 CET
NYPinTA: For all we know, it could be two years that she evades Rossum. She does escape the initial hospital confrontation after all. The guard says that Caroline "fits the profile." I wonder if that profile is having nobody close to her. I wonder about those two friends that Caroline and her guy friend (can't remember) had dinner and drinks with. Could they make a return appearance?
OneTeV: I was thinking about what would force them to keep the 5 year engagement too. Also, I wondered what of their minds would be left at the end of the five years. Do they have a copy of their original imprints lying around somewhere? I guess that in case they ever get caught, there is at least a paper trail to protect them. "Human Trafficking? But they signed a contract!" Perhaps they all get stuck up in the attic after five years when they sign another contract in their doll-like state. Who knows.
I have to admit, I'm a little underwhelmed by Caroline's back story. An animal activist sneaking into the lab to bring down the evil corporation? Seems a bit cliche. I mean, perhaps we'll see more of what she has done to Rossum, but getting a little bit of evidence (in a left behind camera) about the evil doings, is probably not enough to put someone away. And while I like the lawyer-y explanation from Eileen, that doesn't sound like a plot point that would be used in the show.
All that being said. Good ep. Next week's will definitely be annoying if they get the problem under control by the end. Also, the Dollhouse really stinks at what they're doing. That's three weeks in a row with a major control issue. You'd think Rossum would fire Adelle or something.
BryGuy | March 28, 06:52 CET
Did you see Joss' name on the motorcycle? And check it, the motorcycle was *red*. How perfect is that?
korkster | March 28, 06:52 CET
I might have felt bad about Mellie, but knowing she is a doll means that her heart wasn't broken by his unwillingness to give up the case for her... instead we know she was programmed to pull out all the stops in the manipulative guilt tripping. Kudos to Paul for not falling for it!
I definitely will be rewatching this episode several more times!
embers | March 28, 06:53 CET
@bryguy: Seriously, Topher specifically says an old client with a new fantasy. Matt is not redoing the same engagement from Ghost. (And Alice doesn't even behave like whatever Echo's persona in Ghost was called anyway.)
The One True b!X | March 28, 06:55 CET
Nothing really insightful, like we got with Caroline/Echo. Even with Sierra, Victor & November we got some backstory as far as past (unseen) engagements, and it seems Mellie was hurting more about Paul's obsession with Caroline than she let on. (That line about "is she what you see?" really killed me.)
So...here's a question - we see five
coffinsbeds. We know Echo, Victor & Sierra sleep there. And apparently there's a Foxtrot, but we haven't met him/her. So there's one other unnamed Doll that stays @the House constantly. Or is that fifth bed empty, and November will use it when she returns? Or is that fifth bed empty...until the end of tonight's episode?And also...could the friend of Mellie's that she mentioned might be using her apartment be another sleeper Doll?
I actually said "And people were complaining because of lack of funny" to myself during an ad break. (I really should stop talking to myself.) And thought "shades of Band Candy" when Topher & Adelle were lying on the floor.
I had a little antenna hiccup - what's Topher's last name?
It feels to me like Joss is delivering a full package here, just in case (Heaven forbid!) it doesn't get picked up for a second season. So this could be a complete story as it is, in 13 episodes, but, knowing him, he's left it just ambigious at the end that it can continue if FOX does renew.
ShadowQuest | March 28, 06:57 CET
The One True b!X | March 28, 07:00 CET
I thought it was pretty sad that Matt wanted to try a new fantasy, but instead of the competitive girl he had before, he gets to be the teacher. Pretty silly.
korkster | March 28, 07:04 CET
nasarius | March 28, 07:06 CET
korkster | March 28, 07:08 CET
Thought it was choppy occasionally, and some of the humor felt forced. Agree with other posters' wtfs on the last Adelle/Dominic conversation.
But it was a solid ep. I laughed out loud two or three times, including Boyd's line about not keeping control of the situation. I never thought I'd think Boyd was funny, so that was a welcome surprise.
It makes sense that the Dollhouse finds its own "volunteers". Could you actually have a secret organization that just has walk-ins who want to join up?
I'm beginning to think that the best actor, maybe even the break-out, is going to be Enver Gjokaj.
No security people in the Dollhouse noticed Topher in his skivvies cavorting with Adelle?
shambleau | March 28, 07:09 CET
The One True b!X | March 28, 07:10 CET
SO, who here would like to drink that tea that Adelle pours for her "new sign-ups"?
korkster | March 28, 07:13 CET
The One True b!X | March 28, 07:15 CET
*checks wrist, realizes there is no watch; checks computer*
korkster | March 28, 07:16 CET
I vote for Adelle to be awesome. Cuz she is. Now I want to find British people and help them with their R's. :D
korkster | March 28, 07:18 CET
Laughed so much with Topher's and Adelle's scenes!
Olivia Williams kicked ass in those scenes... From what I had seen on the previous episodes I'd never expect that comedian side of her, but she totally delivered. Reed Diamond too, very very good.
All Caroline's flashbacks were very interesting. I particularly liked that the scene with Adelle ended with "Nothing is what it seems to be" (not sure that's the exact quote), matching how the first scene of "Ghost" started.
Not much of Victor and Sierra, but it was cool too.
Mellie/November... as someone said above, looks like she was even more upset with Paul's obsession with Echo than what we could see on the previous episodes.
Only thing I missed was Dr. Saunders. I'd imagine she'd be a part of the researching team (with Topher) to find out more about the drug.
Anyway... AWESOME episode! Not what I was expecting at all! Is it Friday (again) yet??? I want episode 8!!
maxsummers | March 28, 07:18 CET
If anyone else is gonna be outed as an Active, it'll be him. Maybe after the whole Alpha debacle they decided to test out partnering Actives with Sleeper Actives, and Boyd is the first test, maybe an Active from another Dollhouse so no one notices. Although obviously they'll need to explain why he reacted the way he did.
Then again, considering the way that the show seems to have decided to play all its cards at once, I also wouldn't be surprised if Mellie is the last secret Active reveal we'll see.
Also, did we actually hear that Mellie's codename is November? I know that's what Miracle Laurie (so gorgeous!) was cast as initially, but I didn't actually hear Topher call her that.
alpha5099 | March 28, 07:18 CET
The One True b!X | March 28, 07:26 CET
[ edited by maxsummers on 2009-03-28 07:27 ]
maxsummers | March 28, 07:26 CET
Bravo. *claps* Well done.
korkster | March 28, 07:27 CET
Oh, and I'm totally going to buy a bunch of chips and various pastry snacks specifically so I can make a label for a "Drawer of Inappropriate Starches"! That was probably my favorite line. In general though, I have to rewatch the episode tomorrow because people kept coming into our apartment and being very loud!
fuffybaby18 | March 28, 07:28 CET
The One True b!X | March 28, 07:30 CET
I'm beginning to think that the best actor, maybe even the break-out, is going to be Enver Gjokaj.
I agree.
hacksaway | March 28, 07:32 CET
Hilariously, even after she saw that they were testing on humans, she still cared more for the animals. Soooo cute!
korkster | March 28, 07:32 CET
That's too long! I'm "ssstired"! I won't make it til then!
korkster | March 28, 07:33 CET
I found that less cute and more of an all too common tunnel vision on the part of hyper-activist personas. (Then again, the animals were actually there in the room, whereas he was just looking at data on a computer screen.)
The One True b!X | March 28, 07:34 CET
Oh and I forgot to mention before one other cool thing in this ep; remember last week when Ballard was getting his message through re-programmed Echo, that he needed to figure out the real purpose of the Dollhouses, since renting out programmable people is not the real purpose? We got part of the answer when Adelle said to Dominic something about the cause they (Dollhouse) were funding being very important.
peach | March 28, 07:35 CET
hacksaway | March 28, 07:37 CET
Seriousfully though, I'd probably save the puppies too. In fact, I would (well, cats in my case).
I wonder though how much was hyper-activist persona and how much was "OMG I was right! I knew I was right!". Because, when I get that "right" vibe, I get tunnel-visioned as well.
But yes. Good point. But perhaps this could help explain her guilt over Leo a bit better. She was essentially Paul, who had a strong grounded tether to the "safe" world. The tether got cut, the world went to hell.
korkster | March 28, 07:41 CET
The One True b!X | March 28, 07:48 CET
korkster | March 28, 07:54 CET
So, no.
The One True b!X | March 28, 07:58 CET
Simon | March 28, 07:59 CET
hacksaway | March 28, 07:59 CET
korkster | March 28, 08:00 CET
korkster | March 28, 08:13 CET
Chrisham2 | March 28, 08:16 CET
"I find lentils completely incomprehensible." Wow.
Arsenal | March 28, 08:20 CET
I just don't buy it. Unless I'm missing something here.
nasarius | March 28, 08:35 CET
[ edited by Bruce on 2009-05-14 19:52 ]
Bruce | March 28, 08:52 CET
hacksaway | March 28, 09:23 CET
Simon | March 28, 09:39 CET
[ edited by KingofCretins on 2009-03-28 10:02 ]
KingofCretins | March 28, 09:58 CET
But her on the trampoline though! And the fact has Topher has one! Or that their brilliant effort to escape from Mellie was to just hide in the same room!
As other stuff goes, I actually sorta liked Sam before it was revealed he accidentally killed his friend but I was more convinced he was going to get killed or something. I wonder if they have a new opening in the alphabet (is he gonna be a new Alpha? Foxtrot's putonghua gonna be blamed on the active?)
Also, I'm a bit surprised I like Dominic a bit now, I think it'd be neat if he actually were apologetic about the whole fire thing and fit in with the idea that nobody is like how they seem at first.
And oh right re: Nasarius, I assume that part of the reason that Sam escaped with Echo was since she was also really into entering the building and a had a potential way in. Plus she served as a handy decoy aside from the fact they were both pretty clearly kind of drugged.
[ edited by orangewaxlion on 2009-03-28 10:45 ]
orangewaxlion | March 28, 10:42 CET
Josh Cooke, who played Caroline's dead lover Leo, was in the Canadian comedy Young People Fucking (unfortunately his segment in that film was one of the most boring, though he and the girl were fine). Apparently he's also in the new Paul Rudd/Jason Segel comedy I Love You, Man.
Bix said:
Loved it, but the naming of yet another doll (yeah, I know they're from the military alphabet--do we know how many of them the Dollhouse has used though?) has me feelig that this show is treating the extras a lot like Lost does. I wasn't sure things would be that way after the first few episodes, I thought some of the fit people walking around in the background of blissful ignorance might be more than extras. It's not a complaint, just something that seems the writers have to be careful about writing around lest they stretch visual credibility (like with Lost, I seriously doubt the same extras were hired to play the remaining non-main-character survivors of Flight 815 throughout all five seasons thus far--plus now there're the Ajira 316 survivors--'cause aside from some simliar faces popping up in Season 1 like that one dude with the beard, I haven't noticed any others in recent years). But maybe they have a storytelling way around that, I dunno. Or maybe it's just one of those things the audience is expected to buy into, which wouldn't be that big a deal given what other shows have required.
Does the writing team of Elizabeth Craft and Sara Fain usually write comedic eps ? I can't recall, but a quick look at their IMDB profiles shows that, aside from "Harm's Way" on Angel, they seem to get the serious stuff (okay, and there was some funny stuff in "Shiny Happy People"). This was funny in parts, a few moments were very funny, but...
I think it was way too early for this kind of episode. Showing that side of Adelle this early on felt...off...forced (I know other people have already said "forced")...like we would've gotten a heck of a lot more out of it if we actually knew the non-Actives Dollhouse staff a bit better and for a lot longer. "Band Candy", "The Zeppo", "Spin the Bottle", none of those episodes would've fit in the seventh episode of their respective series and I felt that was the problem here. I understand maybe the need to do a zany funny episode to keep the attention of that portion of the audience that demands/expects/hopes for a heaping dose of humor every now and then or even nearly every episode for some. I also understand the plan to maybe go for broke because the series might only end up being one season, but even so...*shrug* Some of it just didn't work for me and it felt like a joke. All the flashback and Caroline-reveal stuff was fine. I didn't like feeling embarrassed for the show for being too-goofy-too-early though. I guess I was just hoping for the kind of heightened sense of urgency like we got last week (only felt it again during the Mellie scene where Topher and Adelle cowered from her as she began to recite the trigger), it felt like we needed another week of that before a break in the tension.
[ edited by Kris on 2009-03-28 16:40 ]
Kris | March 28, 11:01 CET
I just figured that Dominic and Adelle were embarrassed with each other because, as head of security, Dominic has access to (and probably had to review for debriefing purposes) all of the surveillance tapes- which would show Adelle being a big British freaked-out, starchy-snack-eater. And Dominic would be embarrassed because he got his gun taken by an Active. That's a probably a pretty big "no no" in hard-assed-security-guy-land. And she had to return it to him on top of it. Insult to injury.
She did, however, seem a bit overly concerned when she found out he had been effected by the drug. I read a bit more than co-workers into *that* scene.
Oh, and whoever it was above (too tired to go look it up) who remarked about animal rights' activists caring more about the animals than people and having tunnel vision or whatver. I am not an activist by any means, but I expect one of those people might say that we are more human (maybe even at our best as humans) when we care for animals' rights and take responsibility for their proper and non-abusive care. That, in that way, protecting animals' rights is, in fact, protecting human rights... even humanity itself.
Just my thought... I mean, if Rossum will treat animals like that, who knows what they would do to humans/fetuses/dolls, right? :)
Tarae | March 28, 11:06 CET
Kris | March 28, 11:26 CET
I've always loved this quote:
"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress, can be judged by the way its animals are treated."
--Ghandi
[ edited by josswhedonaddict on 2009-03-28 11:34 ]
josswhedonaddict | March 28, 11:33 CET
gossi | March 28, 12:11 CET
I loved that more of the other actors got more time to show what they're capable of, it was the first time it felt to me like a cohesive ensemble.
I loved that Caroline was a brave, idealistic activist (no matter what the cause). Adele and Topher were hysterical, I was amazed at Olivia Williams, as I've never seen her before. The entire cast was in top form, great timing with all the mood shifts and mix of serious/funny dialog.
I loved the mix of drama, humor and reveals that moved the storyline forward. More of this, please (not expecting the overt humor every time out, but more of this kind of sneaky humor in the dialog would be great).
Shey | March 28, 12:19 CET
Favourite scene was definitely the Topher-Adelle "heart-to-heart". I got a Band Candy vibe there too. :D Hadn't thought about Spin The Bottle, though - obviously I need to see that episode again very soon. LOVED Dominic's tripping.
I did miss Dr Saunders. :(
Braeden Fireheart | March 28, 12:25 CET
(One thing though, didn't Echo and that other guy manage to escape the detention area or whatever awfully easy? Kinda bugged me out...)
Djungelurban | March 28, 12:48 CET
I hadn't considered it yet, but I also agree that it was a clever way to show us who is and isn't a doll.
Favorite off-character moment: Boyd on the piano
The soldier flashbacks were definitely Victor's. I assumed Iraq.
Poor Sierra. Poor Mellie. Poor Paul. But not poor me for getting sucked into actually fretting over characters again! Thanks, Joss. It's been awhile.
WhoIsOmega? | March 28, 12:51 CET
josswhedonaddict | March 28, 15:13 CET
But like any Whedon show, it is meant to be watched over and over to pull out the nuances of the plot that rocket by you the first time you hear and see them. Damn, that man's mind is complex beyond belief.
We have at last learned of the evil corporation that is controlling the Dollhouse and how it obtains its actives. Essentially, to surpress or contain them, it recruits them.
But Echo is the random element. Part of her pysche, the anarchist that is Caroline is still there, no matter how they have tried to wipe it. And that rebel escapes the mind-chains and plants a time bomb in the apparatus that will eventually blow sky-high. Kick their ass, girl!
I'm loving this show.
Riverine | March 28, 15:15 CET
Huh. I have been assuming that there is more than the one room of sleeping pods and that there is an entire alphabet of Actives currently in the DH, if not more. I wonder which is correct?
peach | March 28, 15:24 CET
gossi | March 28, 15:26 CET
I watched the ep again. How are we all going to last another 6 days until the next new ep?? Oh, the humanity!
peach | March 28, 15:32 CET
Loved this episode with all the Bandy Candy/Spin the Bottle-ish stuff. The Topher/Adelle moments were brilliant:
'It's made of Brown.'
'Brown...mined from the earth by the hard scrabble Brown miners of North Browndeton.'
'I find lentils completely incomprehensible'
Dollhouse is now very much pure Joss.
Eliza played Caroline a lot better this time, maybe because it was the serious, rebellious side of Caroline that we saw here and I agree that it's a side that cannot be wiped from Echo.
I'm loving this show more and more.
Shep | March 28, 15:34 CET
It suggests to me the way some people may seek to be wiped clean of their sins via religious faith ...they may fervently wish to be a new person who is no longer responsible for the bad deeds of their un-transformed prior selves. Sometimes over and over again...like the dolls being wiped...a magic "get out of jail free" sort of atonement.
The temptation to sign on the dotted line seems pretty real to me; a escape for people who feel irrevocably trapped by their misdeeds and mistakes.
[ edited by toast on 2009-03-28 16:00 ]
toast | March 28, 15:42 CET
I would have, but it was all Greek to me...
Rowan Hawthorn | March 28, 15:44 CET
MattK | March 28, 15:47 CET
I am wildly curious about the Adele / Caroline relationship though. When Adele was called into the hospital, it sort of sounded like she hadn't met Caroline before, but the way she smiled when she realized Caroline had escaped made me think she did know her.
I enjoyed all the scenes with Topher and Adele too. And Boyd on the piano! Lovely.
catherine | March 28, 15:48 CET
MattK | March 28, 15:52 CET
toast | March 28, 15:57 CET
Boyd on the piano was indeed a thing of beauty. Hopefully we'll get some Acker next week. Good stuff.
redders | March 28, 16:07 CET
Allycat | March 28, 16:08 CET
I seriously enjoyed ALL the scenes. I didn't feel it was too early to see some silly from Dominick Topher and Adele, we've all been hating on them since the beginning. And I thought having Caroline be an animal protection activist had a very nice irony since poor Caroline is now a lab rat running the drug company's maze.
embers | March 28, 16:14 CET
Harmalicious | March 28, 16:27 CET
Anyways, once more, I bring you the review from this site I visit. The guy who wrote it was apparently not too excited by it, I loved it, though.
"Echoes" at the Independent Comics Site.Net
Xyrqurqualym | March 28, 16:36 CET
Kris | March 28, 16:39 CET
Viewers: #4, 3.87 million; A18-49: #3, 1.3/ 4
http://pifeedback.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/63310451/m/208101991
helcat | March 28, 17:05 CET
Dominic was much less dicklike, and I still don't like Adelle. I thought the antics in the pencil skirt were very "I Love Lucy".
But we are definitely in the JossVerse, so YAY!!
Crisham2, I salute you!!!!
[ edited by falina on 2009-03-28 17:13 ]
falina | March 28, 17:11 CET
On a side issue, how does one distinguish between an "appropriate" and "inappopriate" starch?
roofpig | March 28, 18:14 CET
zaphod | March 28, 18:27 CET
Was this the first episode with Jane Espenson as Consulting Producer? Would explain all the "Band Candy"-talk... :)
I kind of didn't get the point of Sam dragging Alice along for the ride, but that's probably because I didn't understand their first conversation all to well.
wiesengrund | March 28, 18:30 CET
That doesn't make sense logically, unless one considers animals to be more deserving of protection than humans.
At any rate to be clear: I didn't say anything specifically about animal rights activists and tunnel vision. I said something about hyper-activist people generally. Read it again. ;)
The One True b!X | March 28, 18:37 CET
But I did think it was well placed, and furthered Caroline's saga. I was quite angry at her for not freeing all the animals. Yes realistically what good would it do, but to just stand their with all those adorable animals made me deffiently understand her desire to help at least one of the dogs.
That said, I didn't understand why she hated the company so much when she was with all her friends (ie before she had proof, obviously then there is a great deal of cause to not like it so much). Yes obviously animal testing is wrong, etc. but she seemed to jump from animal testing, to "There Evil and must be hiding something" pretty quick. Unless she had previous run ins, which would make sense, but it would have been nice to reference them.
edit: b!x, I had a whole elaborate argument to support in some cases mistreatment of animals is worse than against humans, but I figure its just not worth it. I'll just say that I felt way worse for the monkeys and dogs than for the fetuses or for the new Doll recruit, and that I personally value my cats life far above the average humans.
[ edited by SteppeMerc on 2009-03-28 18:50 ]
SteppeMerc | March 28, 18:41 CET
I definitely found myself wondering if Adelle might be Caroline's mother. I don't know how likely it is; while she's been more than normally concerned about Echo, she also seemed a bit more stoic about needing to "neutralize" her in the museum heist episode than you'd expect if she were talking about her own daughter. But there's definitely something more to that relationship - the bit about Caroline having gone to the college in order to punish Adelle really stuck out.
I also, got a kind of a Maggie Walsh feel, and wondered if Adelle might have been a Professor at the college and Caroline a prize student, and that that was what was meant by "doing the dance" for two years. Also, echoes of Spike in "Fool for Love" talking about dancing being what they've always done.
Also seemed to me a very good candidate for Alpha would be Caroline's boyfriend. We don't actually see him die. If he survived and was captured by Rossum, that would explain his special interest in Echo/Caroline. I understand there is some casting spoiler, that I don't know, that would make this unlikely, but it sure would be compelling.
bunnykitty, thanks for the tipoff about "Rossum's Universal Robots." Wasn't that the first ever use of the term "robot." I actually read it in high school, but didn't remember the name.
barboo | March 28, 18:46 CET
It's music boxy, much like the end of the Dollhouse theme itself.
The One True b!X | March 28, 18:58 CET
wonderflonium | March 28, 19:15 CET
In other words, didn't like the episode that much. Didn't hate it either.
Caroline | March 28, 19:19 CET
...but we don't know about Dr. Saunders! :O
snakebyte | March 28, 19:20 CET
Simon | March 28, 19:27 CET
And Boyd seriously needs some new kit. When the tripping girl went to touch him he had in his hand a first generation Magellan GPS, seriously old stuff. I had one of those and sold it on ebay a couple of years ago for about $40.
Actually, now I think about it I do pronounce Topher as Topha. Damn you Joss!
[ edited by zz9 on 2009-03-28 19:30 ]
zz9 | March 28, 19:30 CET
Except we don't actually know that Rossum runs the Dollhouse, only that they must have made some drugs/technology essential to what the Dollhouse does. Maybe even be their tester. I just didn't get the vibe that Rossum was actually in charge of them.
hacksaway | March 28, 19:42 CET
The One True b!X | March 28, 19:46 CET
Oh and also, no matter what anyone says, Topher rocks.
Rune | March 28, 19:50 CET
And Rune, I think that Echo's glitching upon seeing her old school has to do with her specific glitchiness which (so we have been led to believe) does not affect all of the dolls. Remember, everyone has different chemistry!
[ edited by Septimus on 2009-03-28 20:17 ]
Septimus | March 28, 20:13 CET
Like my other comments indicate, I'm siding with gossi and catherine. The episode was fun and entertaining, with lots of interesting moments, but it wasn't a great show. The more I think about it, the more parts of the episode are bugging me (pacing, characterization, narrative flow). I don't think it was bad, but there were a lot of missed opportunities. Is there somewhere to post an amateur critique? I'd like to go over the episode again and make notes (it is bugging me that much).
OneTeV | March 28, 21:00 CET
Also, kudos to the people noting that this episode allows us to say with pretty much near certainty that most of the major dollhouse management characters are NOT dolls, due to their reaction (Claire and Ivy the obvious unknowns at this point.).
Also key: All the dolls flash back to their "real" past traumas, right? In that situation, I think it is significant that what Mellie flashes back to islargely her fear that Paul is thinking more of Caroline than him, which reinforces my personal hope that, when all is said and done, "Mellie" and her thing for Ballard are meant to be very close to the "real" character of this active, not just an imprint (I still like the idea that one possibility is precisely that the dollhouse sent her out in to the theworld with her REAL personality, just with a few hidden extra abilities and triggers. Think what a cool narrative possibility that opens: someone you really have known for years/your whole life being a doll, but you don't know it because they have been sent out with their "real" identity in place instead of a separate imprint!)
doubtful guest | March 28, 21:05 CET
That aside, is anyone else wondering if the plot re-use from earlier Joss shows might be deliberate ? We've had "Homecoming" ('The Target'), maybe 'Tabula Rasa' ('Gray Hour') and now something like "Band Candy" and/or "Spin the Bottle". Or maybe it's just that there're only so many plots ? I dunno though, feels like there may be something there ...
- apparently I can only stand Topher when he's high cos I almost never wanted to punch him in the face in this one ;)
- even the animals in the lab being basically a mash-up of ALL experimented upon animals. There's the rabbits with make-up, monkeys, what looked like beagles (as in smoking), probably others. Almost a greatest hits.
- liked seeing a bit more of Adelle's pitch to future actives and finding out a bit more about how Caroline came to be there
- did anyone else think Leo would've probably backed out of the "liberation raid" if Caroline hadn't pressured him a bit ? I like that, seems to me like guilt could've contributed to her signing on too and it also ties in to the idea we see over and over in this show that choices are never clear-cut, never totally free but very rarely totally imposed either (I think when we get to the end and re-watch all the episodes, we're going to find that instances of volition totally clear of any external pressure are gonna be pretty thin on the ground - just like real life)
- what looked like a little bit of genuine pre-active "Victor" (AFAIK we don't know his real name right ?). Post Traumatic Stress is actually one of the few reasons for signing on that make any sense to me personally.
- is this the most explicit jibe yet about how even heroic female characters tend to run around dressed like a male fantasy in most TV shows ?
- and IMO one of the more distasteful engagements too in its own seemingly innocuous way. Apparently nice guy Matt may well be getting off on the idea that he can play "dress up" with the doll's entire personality. Unlike the other engagements which have been about meeting a specific need, this one has a large element of being about having a programmable woman (since he presumably specifically asked for Echo's body but with someone else inside).
...but we don't know about Dr. Saunders! :O
That's an extremely good point. She's the only main dollhouse character we don't see affected by it (one way or another). Interesting.
ETA: Some of which doubtful guest covered a mere 2½ minutes previously ;).
[ edited by Saje on 2009-03-28 21:20 ]
Saje | March 28, 21:08 CET
As a final note against him, how stupid can you be to video tape yourself with an incredibly illegal Doll? Sure she has no identity, etc. etc., but you think he'd seen a movie or too to know that someone like Paul would be trying to bust the Dollhouse.
SteppeMerc | March 28, 21:30 CET
I'm going to watch it again later to figure out what I think about this episode. Something felt off for me.
crazygolfa | March 28, 21:40 CET
doubtful guest | March 28, 21:42 CET
Good point SteppenMarc, however history (er...or Entertainment Tonight?) has shown us that when it comes to fulfilling their sexual desires/fantasies, many people (esp celebrities/the rich) do all sorts of really stupid things.
ShanshuBugaboo | March 28, 21:45 CET
(And is really like Topher in person.)
jamesthegill | March 28, 21:49 CET
And it's interesting that there are real-life experiments going on with drugs that eliminate traumatic memories.
barboo | March 28, 21:50 CET
Yep, the video's a clear case of thinking with the wrong head I reckon ;).
Re: Matt, rope/schmope, that's a "floats yer boat" detail between consenting adults (setting aside what that means where an active's concerned), no issue with that at all but the "same body reprogrammed" thing is pretty insidiously creepy IMO. I could imagine a lot of clients even wanting to forget that aspect of it, after all the unique selling point of the dolls is that (in some sense) they want to be there for you - reprogramming the same body is almost like revelling in the idea that you're making them be there, picking them off a rack like any other piece of merchandise.
And Topher's arrogant and deeply callous in amongst all his funny lines and quirky charm. He's also wrong a lot which maybe wouldn't matter as much if it was only his life at stake.
(Yes, I am one of those who found the end of the episode 6 Joel Mynor story more touching than gross)
Yeah that was more touching IMO too (and also sad - not just for him but at him if you see what I mean. Pathetic would be the word i'd use for him I guess).
Saje | March 28, 21:51 CET
Also, I thought the fact that the guy hired the same doll with a different personality for a new fantasy made him even more disgusting than he was the first time around with his little heart necklace. I hope he's still tied to the bed.
ETA: Just discovered that y'all had a long conversation about Matt while I was posting! (Agree with Saje. --again)
[ edited by jcs on 2009-03-28 22:00 ]
jcs | March 28, 21:52 CET
There might be some deeper relationship but i'd be fairly surprised if they were related (and certainly not mother/daughter - sisters maybe). Not just because of how British Adelle is either ;).
Saje | March 28, 22:01 CET
embers | March 28, 22:09 CET
That just makes him creepier. He's got this sugar-coated power and control thing going on that's just YUCKY.
i'd be fairly surprised if they were related
Yeah, I certainly don't think Caroline is her daughter, but she seems to have a pretty strong attachment to her. Possibly the attachment developed during that "2 years" that was mentioned.
jcs | March 28, 22:10 CET
Since the last time we saw him, she almost beat him in their race, I think the teaching was more about ensuring that wouldn't happen again. He wants to be superior, and that adds to his shadiness. Otherwise, I don't think he's really worth talking about. (I see now jcs just said the same thing.)
hacksaway | March 28, 22:17 CET
Valse | March 28, 22:29 CET
Otherwise, my over all = funnest episode yet.
Brett | March 28, 22:40 CET
I noted on re-watch the concerned look on Adelle's face when she learned by phone about Dominic being infected. It could have just been worry that the virus was contaminating Dollhouse staff, but it seemed more personal than it should have, somehow.
shambleau | March 28, 22:44 CET
I will say this, though: even in my sleepiness, I was startled by how sloppy the editing was at that point noted by Brett. What the heck? There were a few other points in the show where I wondered about the editing. It just didn't seem up to snuff.
Interesting discussion above about Matt.
phlebotinin | March 28, 23:43 CET
On another note, i did enjoy all the fun of the people in it. Topher i didn't notice as much because he's naturally fun. But Adelle, that was fun to notice all the differences in her composure.
chaoswurm | March 28, 23:51 CET
Finally I'd just like thank ShanshuBugaboo, since of all the times I've had my handle misspelled over the years, I think I like SteppenMarc the best. :)
SteppeMerc | March 29, 00:04 CET
DisChunk | March 29, 00:44 CET
He wasn't. He started getting a little crazy at the time that the other guy killed himself, but by the time Echo ran into him it had worn off.
[ edited by snakebyte on 2009-03-29 00:48 ]
snakebyte | March 29, 00:47 CET
God I wish she'd changed out of that stupid outfit. It was pretty much impossible to take her seriously while she was wearing those silly stockings. If anything, that's what creeps me out the most about Matt's fantasy, that he had her wear that.
alpha5099 | March 29, 00:59 CET
gossi | March 29, 01:02 CET
cabri | March 29, 01:06 CET
But I would be lying if I said I didn't like it.
SteppeMerc | March 29, 01:07 CET
Ultimately though, stockings and high-heels are sexy and I don't think that's exactly a minority opinion among straight men. It's the context that makes you feel a bit weird about it.
I enjoyed the episode, but I'm not that fond of Caroline.
Yeah I loved that about it. She's gutsy and no-nonsense but otherwise, to be honest, i'm not sure I particularly like what i've seen of her so far.
Saje | March 29, 01:16 CET
embers | March 29, 01:23 CET
edit: Wow. Proof of my lack of sleep: I just realized now (I know this was already discussed up thread) that that her name was Alice, which was one of many of Through the Looking Glass references, as well as dressing Alice in an outfit that some would consider young girlish (though I'd be horrified seeing a child in that short of a skirt).
[ edited by SteppeMerc on 2009-03-29 01:31 ]
SteppeMerc | March 29, 01:25 CET
But I didn't have the problem with her outfit during the rest of the show. It helped illustrate that she was way off-mission, and she was so focused-yet-scattered that I honestly don't think it would have occurred to her to stop to change (and change where, exactly?).
And they stressed that people were affected differently. Sam just had a higher tolerance than she did, that was all (and who besides me thought the flies being released at the beginning were going to be the carriers?) But just how many agents were Actives? Only one besides Dominic went nuts, were the rest all dolls?
But what took me out of the show, briefly, was this: Echo and Sam were far away from the Rossum building, they went down a ladder, found the red pipe she made a point of pointing out, which led them a whole [i]8 feet[/i] to another ladder [i]that could be seen from where she pointed at the pipe[/i]. That ladder must have then moved them through time and space to the far away building. Sloppy. Could have at least added a cut to suggest a longer tunnel.
[ edited by C. A. Bridges on 2009-03-29 01:34 ]
C. A. Bridges | March 29, 01:29 CET
Don't like sexualized schoolkids, me.
Well, look at her as a "sexualised adult woman" then, easy enough if you don't confuse clothes with who's inside them (I can honestly say I had to watch parts again to figure out that it apparently is meant to be a school uniform).
It's an interesting area though, albeit one that's probably impossible to talk about honestly without being branded some sort of heinous pervert. But "Catholic school-girl" for instance isn't a popular role-play for no reason and I doubt it's because most men have sexual fantasies about children. Likewise with "naughty nuns" and so on. Seems like it's the illicit frisson from the incongruity that might be doing it rather than imagining you're having sex with a child (or a nun).
[ edited by Saje on 2009-03-29 01:48 ]
Saje | March 29, 01:45 CET
Oops! Haha. Sorry about that, SteppeMerc ;)
She's gutsy and no-nonsense but otherwise, to be honest, i'm not sure I particularly like what i've seen of her so far.
I agree, Sage, I was not particularly fond of her either. The whole "animal rights" thing reminded me of some particular types I went to college with that were very narrow-minded when it came to the grand scheme of things...and overly caught up in their petty (IMO) causes.
Other than that, I loved all the scenes with Adelle and Topher. Hilarious stuff.
I was a little disappointed that the drug just "wore off" after all. That seemed like weak tea.
Can't wait till next week's though. Looks amazing!
[ edited by ShanshuBugaboo on 2009-03-29 02:11 ]
ShanshuBugaboo | March 29, 01:59 CET
Sunfire | March 29, 02:12 CET
Also, I realllly don't like that Caroline was an animal rights activist before becoming a doll. I wanted to care about her, to like her, and if there is one thing I do not like, it's people who break into labs to rescue mice and puppies. Besides my dislike for people who actually do this, I thought the role was cliched. I do see the parallels between Echo's story and the animals...but perhaps it was too obvious. I am hooping there is more to her back story than that.
Also, some of the drugged-out humor was good (actually a lot of it was), but I think it got a little too silly for my taste.
Finally, as a medicinal chemist, it bugs me to no end that the grad student (now doll) had to steal the vial of the compound to sell it to another company. All you would need is the structure of it (and a patent on the structure)! They even call it a phenethylamine, (a class of drugs that includes mescaline and ecstasy), which are notoriously easy to synthesize molecules.
I know, I know...I'm all "What's powering that flying kick? Raw enthusiasm?" But it still bugged me.
Overall, I give it a B-
5X5B | March 29, 02:22 CET
C. A. Bridges | March 29, 02:30 CET
gossi | March 29, 02:36 CET
I also don't think its a bad thing to not agree with Caroline immediately. I do not think she was very wise, and didn't love her all that much. But I think she is a very interesting character, which is far more important than my own personal beliefs. I saw it similar to the resistant group in Battlestar Season 3: didn't agree with how they carried it out, but I understood and sympathized with them.
[ edited by SteppeMerc on 2009-03-29 02:46 ]
[ edited by SteppeMerc on 2009-03-29 02:47 ]
SteppeMerc | March 29, 02:44 CET
Sunfire | March 29, 02:45 CET
I think it was inevitable. Those episodes were about former consciousnesses, former identities, and how people have changed. This show is all about consciousness and how your memories define you. If your characters are going to start getting blips of memory in a stressful situation, odd things are going to happen. Look at what it did for us:
We've seen different sides of Adele, Dominic, and Boyd, and frankly we needed to see the first two.
Topher and Adele's helplessness gave added weight to November's possible ninjaing.
Dominic's apology was unexpected, at least to me, and helped move him back (a bit) from the one-sided evil guy.
The rest of the group being goofy made it that much more startling and dramatic when the Actives started "glitching" and it stopped being funny and became traumatic and revealing.
Granted, this could have been done without the narcotic effects of the drug, making it a purely memory-affecting agent and making Adele and Topher's plight (for example) horrifying rather than silly. But I liked the comedy. It was about time we had some, and the events of this episode... Can't say. If I say anything about the next episode b!x will esplode.
[ edited by C. A. Bridges on 2009-03-29 02:47 ]
[ edited by C. A. Bridges on 2009-03-29 02:48 ]
C. A. Bridges | March 29, 02:47 CET
barboo | March 29, 03:11 CET
Sunfire | March 29, 03:23 CET
Hunted | March 29, 03:36 CET
At first I thought giving November the drug seemed nearly pointless, but it accomplished two things: It showed that her real feelings about Paul have more to do with her jealousy of Caroline than with her insistence that he stop investigating the Dollhouse because it's dangerous. This isn't new information (she even mentioned the "dumping the stock" metaphor again), but I guess it's OK to reinforce it. The other thing it does is hint that she'll correctly say her own trigger words in the future.
When I first saw Sierra and Victor's flashbacks I was quite confused. After re-watching closely, here's what I see now. First, I see Sierra flashing back to her handler abusing her. Next, I see Victor flashing back to being a soldier. Then, as soon as the two of them touch while stumbling around, they share a flashback of the two of them having sex. Check out Victor's haircut. The back of the guy's head in the flashback does not look like it belongs to Sierra's handler. Sierra did say Victor liked to pretend they were married...
I still think the Matt thing is unfulfilled. Whether you hate him or are interested in his character, his arc didn't go anywhere satisfying in this episode. Perhaps he'll show up again.
I still think the Domenic and Adelle conversation at the end didn't connect well enough with anything.
I agree with those who aren't inspired by Caroline's animal activism. I don't think it's big enough or personal enough to really make you root for her. But the Caroline story isn't over; animal activism was just the thing that started her on her mission. When she's having tea with Adelle, she's obviously trying to escape something larger than caged puppies or her boyfriend's death.
This episode conveyed a lot of information and threw around lot of disposable funny. I only wish I enjoyed it more.
My favorite moment was Domenic apologizing to Echo. That was the most unexpected, and therefore the most interesting, character development for me.
roofpig: Complex carbohydrates are the appropriate starches, of course. But the inappropriate ones are so much tastier!
Intelligent Calcium | March 29, 04:13 CET
zaphod | March 29, 04:23 CET
...PIMPS.
These complex people do monstrous things and the show dares us to forget them. Then slaps us with them. If your Dollhouse-related pleasure and/or disdain are uncomplicated then you're missing all the fun and all the work (which is the fun).
waxbanks | March 29, 05:06 CET
cleartrampoline | March 29, 06:26 CET
Is the sex scene between them a flashback though ? Or, because they're touching, are they both thinking of what they'd like to do with eachother ? If they had already gotten together at the Dollhouse, it's likely Claire and Topher would've found the evidence when they were going through the security cam recordings in "Man on the Street" (though I suppose another blind spot, like the area Hearn used to abuse Sierra, may have been discovered, however unlikely it would've been for the complacent dolls to seek one out). Unless the people Victor and Sierra were before the Dollhouse knew eachother and were involved, I think that flash is more likely to be their wishful thinking than a memory fragment.
[ edited by Kris on 2009-03-29 08:50 ]
Kris | March 29, 08:48 CET
The way I saw it was that he was flashing back to being a soldier, and trying to comfort a hysterical woman, telling her that he wasn't there to hurt her or something. Sierra was flashing back to a rape (but not by the handler, I don't think...perhaps a rape that she had before she went to the Dollhouse). Because they flash from one to the other it looks like he's doing it, but they are separate memories.
are they both thinking of what they'd like to do with eachother ?
I don't think so. Sierra's expression is definitely not one of pleasure. She is saying "this is not a fun game" and she is crying. Clearly rape.
[ edited by ShanshuBugaboo on 2009-03-29 08:55 ]
ShanshuBugaboo | March 29, 08:53 CET
Oh and this might've been mentioned before, but the heavily clothed woman who soldier-Victor is trying to calm down can't be Sierra because we see that woman leave the safety of the house despite Victor's protests, and it definitely looks like she got blown up.
Kris | March 29, 09:08 CET
However, after thinking about it, it bothers me less. She is young, and it probably was a phase. Still, I was a bit annoyed by her, for reasons that I probably shouldn't get into here (regarding fetus' in a jar) because it's touchy and a bit too political/ethical.
That said, I don't need to agree with the characters in order to enjoy the show. I definitely enjoyed the second viewing much more.
ShanshuBugaboo | March 29, 09:29 CET
Adelle and Topher were delightful.
And those long-legged undies are called trunks, not boxers. They're part of the hybrid boxer-brief family.
I suppose if Topher had slept with Adelle she'd have made him erase that part of his brain, so it's lucky they didn't go that way.
will.bueche | March 29, 09:43 CET
Caroline: What I love about Caroline being an animal activist is her plan of getting revenge on Rossum. She decided to attack them by...filming them. By putting herself in the director's seat, where she controlled the eye's gaze. And it was for this crime that she was punished by Rossum -- punished by putting her 'in her place,' in front of the camera's gaze. 'Where she belongs,' in typical patriarchal ideology, ready to be consumed for clients' pleasure. In terms of furthering the show's mythology, I think Caroline's backstory is strong and interesting.
Cutting: I love the moment in which Caroline sees the professor that recognizes her. But even more than that, I love how the cut from the professor's laughter links to Adelle's line, "We make choices." The professor laughs, and her laughter cuts to Topher's hand, squeezing a brain-like pile of mush, surrounded by food. The camera then pans in the opposite direction the professor walks, up to Adelle's face, where she recites the line. This in itself is wonderfully resonant - it links an 'insane' woman to Topher's grasping hand, consuming the women just as he consumes so much food, and then contrasts such imagery with the solemn truth of Adelle's statement. Even nicer, just as Adelle says, "I'm well aware that there are forces beyond our control..." the camera cuts to another location. What does this say about how much control the Dollhouse has over the camera when Adelle herself, while meditating on forces out of control, is unaware of the process of filming and cutting going on around her? This self-conscious shot that really lets the viewer examine the nature of film makes my inner film nerd so happy.
"Then you make it make sense." So says Adelle to Topher. Now, this seems a bit strange. Yes, the conclusions they reach are correct - there was a murder, and technically, nothing they say is wrong. But what does their attempts to 'make sense' of the mess fail to tell them? They think nothing of the dangerous recollections of the dolls, and their experience face-to-face (literally) with the consequences of their human trafficking leaves them unaltered. I think this says a great deal about the role of sense, especially in an episode based around non-sense (Alice, etc). To impose sense and other forms of control on that which is out of control only leads to suppression, more madness, and, as Adelle would say, consequences. And that dichotomy between freedom and oppression definitely underlies this show, just as it did with Firefly.
Also: I love love love the role of drinking and lights in this show. I'm going to let them filter through more episodes before I start thinking seriously about them, but dudes. They are everywhere, and they seem to play a very specific and intriguing role.
ebb_of_laughter | March 29, 10:14 CET
This is Dolllhouse, after all.
And thx, ebb_of_laughter, for that Caroline-wanted-to-film-them-theme. I totally missed that, although it is so incredibly beautiful.
wiesengrund | March 29, 11:58 CET
I do wish Caroline had a more distinct character. So far she seems like just an average socially-concerened college girl. She is brave and makes plans, and that's cool, but I think she's lacking in something that might make her whole, unique, and real.
But maybe the point is that she is average and a nice person, and even average nice people can suddenly find themselves dolls.
RedSkye | March 29, 13:24 CET
A) Are never identified as overtly machines in the circuits and gears sense but are simply programmable servants. Like the Dolls.
B) Are a Marxist analogy for the working class. Could Joss be pulling a bit of a bait and switch with this show? The obvious direction of the show, thematically, would suggest that it's very much about the exploitation of women and builds on Joss' "feminist cred". But what if feminism is a red herring for a Marxist message?
In other words, we get drawn in with the idea of women being objectified/exploited. But maybe the mostly female cast is there partly as a red herring and partly because Joss likes writing female characters? The real message is about the exploitation of workers and, in particular, the exemplification of the capitalist/American idea that what you do for a living is who you are.
In the U.S., one of the first questions people ask is "What do you do...?" However, I've always heard that question fades in importance the less capitalistic a society is. At least until you get into a caste system, which is the other extreme.
Capitalism as an ideology is all about managing people's impulses and desires by relationship and status, the idea that people's ambitions will cause them to play certain roles that, on the whole, create a society of excellence. The spirit of individualism, which comes from the more appealing side of capitalism, pushes people to occupy roles of necessity.
However, the flipside is that in a more collectivist society, if you have a communist government, a theocracy or a tyrannical state, people also wind up occupying prescribed roles out of a kind of necessity.
Basically, any system that governs people forces roles on them. We're all dolls, just more specialized. We learn skills and facts to do certain jobs and perform certain roles. A cop learns forensics and how to use a gun to be a cop. An artist learns painting and aesthetics and art history to be an artist. Whether by economic or political force, people tend to program themselves or be programmed for jobs or roles.
If the Dollhouse causes us to view this as sinister then maybe what Joss is arguing is basically for the idea of the classical liberal arts education, learning for the sake of learning, experiencing the world for the sake of experiencing it.
The underlying message of the show could well be, "Learn Swahili even if you don't plan to visit Africa. Learn recipes to cook in your own home, not to get a job or entertain guests but simply to share and enjoy. Learn forensics and physics and astronomy even if you don't fight crime or build rockets or own a telescope. Useless information is the best kind. Learn and grow for the sake of expanding your mind, not fulfilling some objective that other people or circumstances impose on you."
Patrick | March 29, 13:25 CET
Septimus | March 29, 14:01 CET
Given where we are, and the context of the discussion, I think we've all pretty much got that part down. :-)
zaphod | March 29, 14:04 CET
When she's having tea with Adelle, she's obviously trying to escape something larger than caged puppies or her boyfriend's death.
To me that was about someone hunting her, likely the Rossum corporation, and her needing to escape them. So it's directly linked to her animal activism and not only that but it complicates Adelle's involvement since there seems to be some sort of influence/relationship between the dollhouse and Rossum.
My issue BTW isn't with her being an animal activist or with animal activism in general, it's more with any person that becomes so dogmatic in their views that they can't even consider opposing viewpoints.
Oh and this might've been mentioned before, but the heavily clothed woman who soldier-Victor is trying to calm down can't be Sierra because we see that woman leave the safety of the house despite Victor's protests, and it definitely looks like she got blown up.
How some are seeing Victor/Sierra is interesting. To me that was never about more than the handler rape and what looked very like a real memory from "Victor" before he was Victor. I.e. traumatic memories for them both, not of them both.
Good thing that red pipe was there! They'd have been stumbling around that 8 feet of tunnel for hours!
Yeah that struck me funny too - "We follow the red pi... OK, we're here, phew". But I guess you can fan-wank that she's trying to follow someone else's fragmentary memories and Alice is also clearly not used to doing that sort of thing so her terminology might be off (if she just hadn't said "follow" but e.g. "the red pipe leads us to the the ladder" then it'd be a non-issue). It's not an editing thing though because they're talking for the entire 8-10 feet so it's not like there's a missing cut or whatever.
Learn and grow for the sake of expanding your mind, not fulfilling some objective that other people or circumstances impose on you.
I think that's a lovely sentiment but maybe a bit unrealistic. Sure, "follow your bliss" but most of us still need to earn a living so there will always be conflicting demands placed on finite time. If someone wants to be a cop they need cop skills, same for a doctor or a network administrator or an artist.
So you pick areas to focus on either through talent, choice or (regretfully) necessity. Such is life in the real world.
And those were really insightful comments ebb_of_laughter, nicely observed.
Saje | March 29, 15:00 CET
In other news, I've got all my housemates hooked on Dollhouse. In fact, they liked ep 7 much more than even I did (and I really enjoyed it).
Let Down | March 29, 15:01 CET
Septimus | March 29, 15:02 CET
To me this episode delivered most laughs and dramatic twists, though they definately blew the ending. It all just worked itself out... really, that's what you came up with? Argh! Also very dissapointing: Caroline's past. Hope that's not all of it.
Still this one was the most fun and most Whedony, so it's definately up there with Ghost, True Believer and MotS as one of the better episodes of the series.
the Groosalugg | March 29, 15:28 CET
But I think this whole series is definitely a commentary on education.
Joss, I think, tries to mold himself as a teacher and his school experiences shaped him to be an academic.
Meanwhile, if my timeline is right, about the time that he and Eliza would have pieced together this show, she had made some comments that she was thinking about taking a hiatus from acting to attend college/university.
I guess my big thought here isn't necessarily that a cop learning cop skills is bad. Obviously, you NEED certain skills for certain roles.
But a lot of high schools have been cutting into electives in recent years. Colleges are refocusing towards more vocational programs where they can sell themselves as "pay and put your time in for degree X and get career Y."
The problem is, education is supposed to promote inquiry and, even beyond that, it's the useless, extraneous details that allow us to be more than simply the roles we function as.
Take the "pay and play" philosophy of education and learning to an extreme and the Dollhouse is the new world order. Sure, it finances itself with a limited number of dolls and houses in the series as it stands but if you really follow the philosophy behind it, you arrive at some kind of pragmatic, utilitarian "utopia" where everyone is a doll, including the handlers and the organizers. (My gut says everyone we've seen in the organization was programmed with their current personality and skill set.)
Think about how perfect Topher is for his job, how many disciplines he's mastered. Or Boyd's protective ex-cop mentality as a handler. Or Adelle's businesslike demeanor? Who says they aren't dolls too?
For that matter, it seems to me that Paul could essentially just be a failsafe or a kind of internal affairs to test security, a doll himself. And even if he's not, his single-minded focus, the fact that he's essentially perfectly groomed himself for one thing and one thing only, his life is a single task -- well, how is he any better than the dolls?
With the right setup, it's entirely possible that there is no one running the operation and that everyone was programmed.
But it strikes me as the idea of utilitarian education and specialization taken too far.
And the issue that Echo raises, for me, is this:
If one person can be any of these amazing things, just imagine what that one person could be if she wasn't limited to a single role...
Training is good. Facts are good. Skills are good. But maybe life defined by any one central purpose or meaning is bad.
Maybe a little meaninglessness is good. Maybe a clear path to an objective is the worst way to get there. Maybe fulfilling a function, while necessary, is also overrated.
Patrick | March 29, 15:44 CET
Septimus | March 29, 15:58 CET
Who says they aren't dolls too?
Well, in this episode we see many of them respond differently to the drug than the dolls do so i'd say that's evidence that not everyone we see is a doll. That said, just to throw back open the whole "What if everyone's a doll ?" question, a lot of that information comes from Topher who, to date, has been pretty much nothing but wrong so it's not necessarily that reliable.
(I hope they're not because personally I find "everyone's a doll" to be very close to the classic childish narrative cop-out "And then they woke up and it was all a dream" i.e. it's facile and makes the story fundamentally less interesting)
But the question as to whether everyone we see is "programmed" is near the heart of the show IMO because it's asking to what extent are "normal" people "programmed" (by our genes and our culture and, yep, formal education is a big part of many cultures, certainly in the so-called developed world).
To me the dollhouse itself is (as with a lot of sci-fi) fairly explicitly a sort of thought-experiment that takes an idea to the Nth degree in order to highlight the parallels to real life and the way our choices are influenced by everything from our own biology to the nightly news. So it encompasses the way education tries to channel kids (even from fairly young) but it's about culture in a broader sense.
Saje | March 29, 16:02 CET
I want this show to stay on as long as he feels the story needs to go, but that just won't happen unless he can appeal to a slightly bigger audience. Look at what he did with Buffy and Angel, he brought in numbers (though at many points not the highest) and had a consistent fan base that allowed him to keep making his show until the numbers went down or the show ended. Firefly has more mass appeal than either Buffy or Angel I think, just from personal experience because literally everyone I show it to loves it, it just wasn't handled properly by the network. By all accounts (and correct me if I'm wrong obviously) Kevin Reilly is fully behind Dollhouse, but the numbers just aren't rolling in and that worries me. It's not that the first 5 episodes were bad, it's that they weren't good enough for intro episodes to a series, especially considering the rapid plot development in just the first few episodes of shows like LOST or Heroes, which do appeal to a wide audience.
I think starting with Man on the Street, the show is going where it needs to. My question is why didn't Joss do that earlier?
Rune | March 29, 17:03 CET
As for not liking Caroline, I get that vibe. The girl we met in Paul's video seemed charming and cool, and we liked her. We haven't been given a reason to like animal-rights activist Caroline. I DO like that this character kinda shows Eliza indeed has some range. She doesn't feel like other Eliza characters. But she hasn't given us a reason to really care yet. I'm guessing that in grand Joss-style, eventually we will.
Leading back to her 2-year dance with Adelle. They definitely have a history, and my immediate thought about this several eps ago was first, a relative! Mother not working for me, as the whole British/American thing doesn't mesh, although plausible in some wacky scenario. But more because what mom, even if she didn't raise her daughter, would sign her own daughter on to be pimped out? Sister? Aunt? Not feeling it. I read mention of a Maggie Walsh-type character, and I'm digging this option for their shared past more. They are definitely connected.
Yes, Adele also showed serious concern for Dominic. You wouldn't think worried-scrunched-brow and "please take care of him" would be her reaction to finding out Dominic's loopy. I'd expect the Adelle we know so far to just be annoyed at that situation--even if they didn't know the drug's effects, I'd expect Adelle to simply be annoyed he got himself infected.
Adele? Adelle? I've seen it both ways.
I also noticed there is indeed an illusion that makes it look just like "JOSS" is spelled out on the motorcycle. You can clearly seen in the next frame that those are numbers and not letters, but no doubt that very cool little illusion is there.
Echo's clothes were goofy and didn't jive with events, a la her entrance into campus... but that was the point, I think.
Matt at this point has served to move along the renting-out aspect of the LA Dollhouse (come on, it has to be in LA--where else?), but I don't have a darn reason to like him. He's sorta-cute wallpaper, but no real depth. Then again, maybe that's the point?
Ha! I read above Topher is just more Topher when he's stoned. True indeed. He and Adelle with the munchies was classic. Inappropriate starches. <-- for someone who keeps a file box full of non-perishables at work, this was my favorite funny, while Boyd on the piano still my favorite moment.
I can't help but think what the very small student said to Boyd could eventually have meaning. She said something to the effect of there were mansions in his eyes, and he can see doors. She totally had a Poltergeist vibe, and certainly she still would if not affected by some drug. She was too interesting for me to ignore. Why have such an interesting character at that moment, when they could have had a wallpaper Matt as this device for moving the plot along? If the drug revealed inner-people, then I think she was in the scene because she's important. We now know that people who knew Caroline are still hanging around campus with Rossum.
Then again, I could completely be reading too much into that moment. Still, I loved her line.
Sidebarish: So last night when my plans changed at the last moment and I unexpectedly ended up home, I re-watched Serenity (pilot), Out of Gas, and Objects in Space. Now I'm enjoying Dollhouse, but those episodes resulted in my total worship of Joss, not to mention kinda Tim. Dollhouse has yet to have episodes of this magnitude, but MotS comes close.
After re-watching those Firefly eps and re-reading this thread, you know, I'm sure now I'll enjoy Echoes (was that the title?) more on DVD. Nothing beats several hours of show at a time. I bet when the 12 or 13 eps are viewed as a single unit, okay maybe over two days, the humor in episode 7 actually will not feel rushed. It will feel welcome in that context, and we'll love the characters more by then.
Getting back to loving the characters, my love seems to go in this order:
1) Boyd
2) Paul
3) Topher/Saunders, can't decide
4) Adelle
5) Mellie/Sierra
6) Victor
7) Now Sam!
8) Dominic, inching his way up, slowly but surely.
But Echo? I have no idea where she fits in to this list! I think it depends on the episode... plus, we've experienced so many shades of Echo it's making my head hurt trying to figure out where she fits in that list.
Wow. I like Not-so-tabula-rasa-anymore Echo more than Caroline.
I'm just not feeling Caroline, so I'll be way let down if events don't conspire to make her out to be more. That she likes animals and doesn't want to see them caged and abused doesn't make her heroic, because who really wants to see animal caged and abused, even if you do happily accept meat consumption and leather accessories with a smile, as well as believe that drug and other testing on animals is in many cases justified?
I want to love Caroline and I don't. I'm almost loving Echo... and this is why I'm hopeful, and expect some seriously serious events to go down. Startling revelations and all that jazz. Joss is way too good not to at least make us love Caroline by the end of Season 1.
If Season 1 culminates with satisfying events and answers, I'll be happy with that and enjoy my DVDs or eventual downloads for a long time. It was great to watch Firefly last night precisely because it's been so long since I've done so I don't even remember the last time. I envision enjoying Dollhouse again in such a manner.
And last night I wished again Joss were writing/directing/producing on a cable channel or FX. He doesn't believe his audiences lack intelligence, but Fox sure does.
WhoIsOmega? | March 29, 17:10 CET
shambleau | March 29, 17:24 CET
jcs | March 29, 17:55 CET
embers | March 29, 18:20 CET
shambleau | March 29, 18:33 CET
Saje | March 29, 19:57 CET
I am quite sure there was at least one pre-premiere interview with Joss where he explicitly connects the premise to a Marxist interpretation, going so far as to say that the dolls are "the ultimate underclass" (quoting from memory, not 100% sure) and that his show are always about "the rich people taken advantage of the poor people" (kinda-mocking his own simplified formula there). (If someone knows which one I mean and has the link to that handy, it would be very much appreciated...)
I don't think feminism a is red herring for Marxism, though. Simply put, this show does both topics, I think.
wiesengrund | March 29, 20:53 CET
Course, it's no more or less there because Joss said so. How do I know that ? Joss said so ;).
Saje | March 29, 21:04 CET
The interview I meant was btw this one, but the part about Marxism is only on the audio file, not in the transcript. The audio is one of the best Dollhouse-interviews I have heard him give, I can only recommend it.
wiesengrund | March 29, 21:18 CET
So, in summary: please ignore me/pay attention to me, and judge my work on its own merits unless it has none in which case give me a pass 'cause I said I was a feminist.
I actually separate it out, Joss. I do judge your work on its own merits, though I don't think you can deny that your love of women in all their glory: strength, weakness, merits, flaws, anger, love, their humanness, always find a place in your work.
Thanks for the shoe explanation; however, it didn't address the shoes Eliza was wearing in True Believer (noticed by many here [and elsewhere, I'm sure] towards the end of the episode) which got harped on more than I thought analytically needed. No shoes with heels allowed in a religious community? Continuity error? A non-sighted woman can't have some fashion sense? Personally, I don't care and it didn't faze me at all when watching, but it became like a zombie that needed a bullet in the head and is still shambling around someplace.
[ edited by Tonya J on 2009-03-29 21:32 ]
Tonya J | March 29, 21:31 CET
... or was that Hoss ?
And yeah, sometimes a shoe is just a shoe ;).
Saje | March 29, 22:23 CET
Maybe I spoke too hastily or generally when I said that I didn't think it would get so explicitly Marxist. Obviously, the whole concept of ideology and exploitation basically comes out of a Marxist understanding originally, and there's no way that the show isn't going to be about that. So, I expect the show to deal with how people are socialized to serve the needs of a (capitalist?) society (in fact, the show already does so), but I don't expect it to really get into the exploitation of the working class or a labor-theory of value or something.
Septimus | March 29, 23:56 CET
The ending of that flashback, her watching her boyfriend dying on the grass, didn't really match her then ending up in hospital virtually comatose. Could the Adelle/Caroline in the hospital have been leading up to her becoming a doll but the lab break in was after she became a doll?
I know she remembered her name was Caroline but could that have been her memories being jumbled up?
zz9 | March 29, 23:57 CET
This background really emphasizes Caroline as a fairly average, decently educated young woman (NOT a special mystically chosen one or mutant or anything) who, through circumstance, becomes more deeply aware of some odd things going on and comes to the attention of the Dollhouse. I like that her focus on a fairly common ethical obsession among the late collegiate/early post-collegiate set inadvertantly leads her to the odder fact that the company is doing whatever human experiments (and leads to her becoming such an experiment.) (Said another way, her interest in animal experiments is not meant to appear to be the most nuanced or original or best (or worst) expression of animal rights, but just a common issue for her demographic that she might reasonably have.) She does NOT start the series as bizarrely exceptional. As RedSkye says, "But maybe the point is that she is average and a nice person, and even average nice people can suddenly find themselves dolls."
This feeds into some people's feelings above that Echo may well turn out to be more interesting than Caroline. At this point, I tend to assume that the nearly two-years of dancing around the issue that Adelle refers to suggests that Caroline managed to stay on the run for about that time period after her break-in. If this is so, then the ability to rise to the occassion and demonstrate the resourcefulness to remain on the run for that period may likely have been the first really extraordinary thing she did, the thing that marked her as unusual (and might explain some of Adelle's seeming grudging affection for her.)
Oh, and I really think we can't be too quick to completely dismiss the possibility that when Adelle says that the dollhouse does good work in her interview with Caroline, that she believes this: What we learned about her connection to Rossum and the sort of work they do is very suggestive to me that, when we learn more about Adelle's history and motivations, there will be something about treating victims of trauma or others who may actually benefit from selective forgetting (i.e., maybe she had a friend/family member who was incapacitated by the mental trauma of a war or an assault) and she started down this path thinking that dollhouse and rossum experiments would reveal a benefit in this direction that, to her, justified other ethical compromises.
I am NOT making a blanket excuse of her or the dollhouse, or suggesting that if she started with good intentions it excuses the compromises she may have made. And I am not trying to put rose colored glasses on my enjoyment of her character -- I am very much in agreement with the gist of WAXBANKS's several posts about Dollhouse purposely being written in a way that forces us to find ourselves having pleasures that we immediately feel a little bit gross about having enjoyed -- but I also very strongly feel that we are still not at the point where it makes sense to blanketly assume topher, adelle, etc are no different at all from pimps or are categorically evil/bad actors.
(Example: Alan Sepinwall of the Star-Ledger (whose review is linked on the "what the papers are saying" thread, and who insists that that Topher and Adelle are "loathesome in just about every way" and, therefore, an episode encouraging us to feel even slightly different about them is a bad idea from the start) is my best current example of a media professional with a patheticly shallow understanding of what the show is attempting to do. When I see a professional review that seems to have a subtle understanding of what a show I like is attempting to do, but believes the show is a failure, I don't get angry. When I see someone with the analytical skills of a dog's ass get paid for professionally pontificating, I want to retch even when they like my favorite show. Sepinwal makes me retch.)
doubtful guest | March 30, 00:33 CET
streetartist | March 30, 00:44 CET
The first time he engages Echo, she can pretty much go toe-to-toe with him with the bike-riding and is adventurous in the bedroom, etc. The second time Echo's "Alice," is incredibly more naive and can't ride so he has to teach her and...yeah, he's a prick.
pat32082 | March 30, 00:53 CET
I was thinking about what it would be like if there is a second season, and if the end of this season IS a revelation that the Dollhouse phenomenon is worldwide (not just 20 dollhouses, but a widespread secret technology). Presuming that Echo gets out, and makes some sort of allies/friends along the way, here's what it would look like: young woman/girl works with her team of friends to battle against evildoers who appear to be normal people, and of whom most people are ignorant. Something tells me Joss could do a show like that really well...
(Oh, and I agree with Pat32082 about the meaning of Matt's reappearance.)
[ edited by Septimus on 2009-03-30 00:58 ]
Septimus | March 30, 00:56 CET
OneTeV | March 30, 01:04 CET
barboo | March 30, 01:28 CET
Other options include 3) taping the encounter makes it more exciting for him and 4) he gets to extend the er, usefulness of the session longer by making a record of it.
He seems to have gotten an expected level of awesome from his earlier "bad girl" engagement with Echo, and now he wants to relive parts of it again, only where she's new to all of it and he's introducing her to wonderful things about her own sexuality.
It's not too hard to think like the clients, which I think is rather the point. He's got a pretty common fantasy, but he's hiring Actives to live it out on a regular basis. From this episode he seems to be a relatively vanilla type who enjoys the "Marco Polo" aspect of exploring sexual boundaries with a willing but less experienced partner. Motorcycle thrills, light bondage, sex on tape. Erase, rewind, introduce her to it all over again.
[ edited by Sunfire on 2009-03-30 01:29 ]
Sunfire | March 30, 01:28 CET
I did find it significant that the lab thief had made an agreement with his friend, and didn't allow that friend to change his mind later (so he killed him) - rather like the situation the dolls are in.
Someone else pointed out that it is strange that Matt would try to videotape an engagement with Echo. Either he is getting psycho-obsessive with her, or he will make the (poor) choice to try to blackmail the Dollhouse with exposure at some point.
Porn.
I wish I had the energy to read through all the responses, but I've been at a con all weekend and am ready for my treatment. *yawn*
redeem147 | March 30, 03:37 CET
Boyd and Dominic were the standouts in this piece as far as staff go, probably because they became the most unlike themselves from the drug exposure - though I did find Topher and Adelle's little tete-a-tete very amusing: crisps, eating words, etc., while they struggled to remain focused on the antidote.
Boyd playing Chopin's (one of my favorite composers) Fantaisie Impromptu was a brilliant touch, although he appeared to be playing the simplistic version of I'm always chasing Rainbows that was ripped off from Chopin's famous piece. His playing this harks directly back to Topher telling Mellie after her shot to just think about pretty things, rainbows (and of course, as Topher explained to his millionaire hero at the beginning, drugs affect people differently, including the Actives, so Mellie didn't get a pretty rainbow). And Caroline/Echo are always looking for the rainbow ending, making things right (why Echo consistently is able to think outside the programming box). Caroline's activism, I think, only serves to point out her altruism, her need to make things right as she sees it, not say "I'm an activist" surrounded by red neon lights.
Some lovely, subtle things here - really enjoyed it.
[ edited by Tonya J on 2009-03-30 06:00 ]
Tonya J | March 30, 04:01 CET
My guess is that it's easier for male viewers to "think like the clients" since women are much less likely to hire prostitutes.
These threads are so long that I've been skimming, but I was surprised that people like Matt. But then again, I'm one of the people who thinks these clients are rapists because they know the actives have had their minds altered.
Suzie | March 30, 04:55 CET
He doesn't understand, but we all do? Because he wrote a critique you do not agree with? I happen to think Topher is well beyond loathsome and a waste of screen time. Adelle is completely unlikeable. And that's what I think, so I guess I must have a shallow understanding as well.
Dana5140 | March 30, 05:11 CET
As I also noted in my post, I am specifically addressing the issue of what evidence we do and don't have of the likely contriuting motives of Adelle et al at this point, NOT whether I do or don't find her slimy. Basically, I am accusing Sepinwall of shallow analysis, not of a shallow emotional or affective like/dislike of the characters. There is at least one character in this show that I, myself, have got an antipathy for so strong that I strenuously doubt my mind will be changed, but I do not believe the strength of this antipathy is, in and of itself, evidence for where this character's arc will go, etc, so I don't use this antipathy as evidence in any argument I make about the show, and I try to keep an eye open for any clues that something will turn out to be going on with this character than will totally reverse my opinion.
doubtful guest | March 30, 05:47 CET
SoddingNancyTribe | March 30, 05:55 CET
"Obviously", "originally" ? C'mon, people were being exploited before Marx (slavery is at least thousands of years old but even exploited for profit) and people suffered due to ideologies before Marx (mainly religious in nature), "all" he did was describe what he saw to be the case with some rigour (and then speculated as to what could be done about it, which by its nature was less based in reality). So to me a Marxist interpretation is just too specific (though I don't disagree it fits, it's just that as with all pre-prepared frameworks, you have to shave off a few edges to make it do so).
For instance, the show seems to go out of its way not to judge that capitalist arrangement, or rather not to judge it as categorically evil (which seems to be a problem for the viewers that prefer to be told within the text whether a morally murky act is good or bad). Never met him but i'm fairly sure I know where Karl Marx would stand on the dollhouse and it ain't exactly "Hey, maybe it's a good thing " ;).
edited to fix a tag
[ edited by Saje on 2009-03-30 10:49 ]
Saje | March 30, 10:41 CET
Septimus | March 30, 12:31 CET
When you take out the specific Marxist elements that you yourself said you don't expect the show to deal with and you take out an explicitly negative judgement of the dollhouse itself (which seems essential to a Marxist interpretation) then you're left with "people who arguably volunteer to be exploited for profit" (as you say, they're not even really an underclass as we - or Marx - knew it). It's just using the same words to describe a very broadly similar situation, there's not much/anything that's specifically Marxist rather than e.g. Platonic (Plato also talked about exploitation of e.g. the poor).
Saje | March 30, 12:51 CET
For me, what is most powerful and itneresting about Marxism (as a mode of cultural critque) is its articulation of the nature of ideology and the destruction of the "freedom" vs. "exploitation" dichotomy (you're either a free person or a slave) that it enables. That's what I see reflected metaphorically in Dollhouse rather than any specific anti-capitalist or pro-communist point being made.
Septimus | March 30, 15:11 CET
These threads are so long that I've been skimming, but I was surprised that people like Matt. But then again, I'm one of the people who thinks these clients are rapists because they know the actives have had their minds altered.
For what it's worth, A) I'm a woman and B) there's not been much support for Matt in this thread. There's been a lot of interest in him, and some sympathy here and there, but I've seen more comments describing him as creepy or at best in a seems-nice-but-whoa-wrongness way.
Sunfire | March 30, 15:32 CET
Aha, I see what you mean now Septimus (possibly ;), think i've been looking at it too literally. So for you it's open to Marxist interpretation because the production of ideas, the very way the dolls (and by extension we) think, is controlled by - and intermingled with - other interests (as well as their/our own) i.e. just like Marx thought.
OK, that I think is spot-on and an interesting take on it and i'd say not just metaphorically but even textually the show is very much about not presenting easy opposites and not allowing us to be totally clear about who's right and who's wrong, who's good and who's evil, which choices are free and which coerced etc. Depends how the season finishes I guess but highlighting and questioning false (or possibly false) dichotomies and generally acknowledging real-world ambiguity is one of the stand-out properties of the show I reckon.
Saje | March 30, 15:50 CET
Septimus | March 30, 16:28 CET
dreamlogic | March 30, 22:13 CET
One of the reasons I strongly reacted with DISLIKE to Caroline was exactly because I thought she was an excellent and realistic portrayal of so many activists I knew/still know. My viewing of Caroline was that she may be well-meaning, but that she is rather shallow and naive in her approach to activism in general and her specific issues in particular. Her desire to let out the dog was a perfect example. Releasing an experimental animal, no matter how well-intentioned, is an extremely bad and poorly thought out action. It might seem on the surface to be an act of kindness, but that animal could be infectious and endanger other lives. That animal could be sick and receiving experimental treatments. And so on.
As somewhat of an activist (or "trouble maker" depending on the eyes of the beholder...) myself at times, I have met far too many of this type of "activist wannabe" who may one day accomplish great things but whose maturity and understanding lags behind their good intentions.
Sorry. Long-winded way of saying I think Caroline was extremely realistic and well-done in portraying a very real set of people whom I often disagree with and sometimes even dislike.
In that sense, she is a brilliant means of (1) pointing out that I can feel differently about Echo vs Caroline and in (2) raising overall moral questions (because I would much prefer to have Echo be allowed to stay as a controlling persona than restoring Caroline) as well as (3) introducing fundamental questions about what makes us who we are: would Caroline be different if she had experienced the events in her life in a different order? Would Echo turn out like Caroline if she were allowed to experience Caroline's memories? If a person experienced moments of happiness and trauma, would that person be the same if those moments had occurred in a different order? Would different people with the SAME imprint behave the same way, or is there something inherent -- genetic, chemical -- making us respond to that imprint differently?
roofpig | March 31, 00:09 CET
Suzie | March 31, 01:41 CET
Worst offence: Hearn and Mr Dominic look too similar to me and until this episode I thought they were the same person.
I'm hoping this is just a case of the show finding its feet. But I feel like the show's too confusing to really hook anyone in at this point. (And yet, weirdly enough, I feel like the exact thing the show needs is for the format to twist around a bit - Echo on the run from the Dollhouse rotating through multiple personalities at random or something - a situation perhaps less streamlined in some areas but easier to grasp on why we should care about certain characters.)
Also the cast is too big for the show to go about in this disparate way. In almost every episode the Paul Ballard scenes have nothing to do with anything else that goes on in the series. Shows like this with big casts seem to do better following the Lost model of focusing on each character with their own episode. I know it's there to maintain some continuity, but it really doesn't mesh with the "new identity of the week" profile.
Oh yeah, and revealing the list of actives on a cast list, and then a year later revealing them on the show as "surprise revelations"? Not fun.
[ edited by daylight on 2009-03-31 02:15 ]
daylight | March 31, 02:06 CET
I am! :-(
John Darc | March 31, 02:24 CET
On the happy side, once I go beyond my annoyance with FOX marketing non-logic (I let it go, like so), there's people commenting on and approving the photos all over the place. Shockingly, shirtless Paul in some suggestive scenes is proving rather popular.
[ edited by Sunfire on 2009-03-31 03:29 ]
Sunfire | March 31, 03:27 CET
korkster | March 31, 20:28 CET
Matt bothers me more than any other client, because of how normal and decent he seemed, and yes I had assumed it was a birthday gift from someone else in Ghost, but now he's just nasty. However, him coming back intrigues me -- is he just going to be that repeat offender with the same boring fantasy? Are we going to get a pay off when things start to really go wrong with him on a later ep, or was this the pay-off? Or is he drastically more important than we realize (as in, is he teaching her things other than riding a bike? Is he taping what they do because he plans to show her that she's been there over and over again?)
I reeaaaaaallllly hope we NEVER meet Foxtrot, and that he is mentioned for the duration of the show, like Tino on My So-called Life or Marris on Frasier.
I loved the Marxist critiques, the Film Geek nuances. Let's not get too distracted though, trying to make lots of things into one thing. The great thing about Science Fiction is that a story that is not anything real can represent several real concepts at once. This is feminism, Marxism, and a meta-metaphor for theater and film, and how celebrities are treated. This is a reality show. Seriously awesome concept, so much so that I care not that it isn't feasible.
Here's a new gray you guys aren't really touching on (although someone up there mentioned Adelle thinking Robot company was doing good work): What if they ARE doing good work?
In other words, what if the animal activism angle is a much larger allegory than we realize, and this Dollhouse we hate so much, and all the "loathsome" people within it, are using these dolls as tests for something huge, something that could save all of us? In other words, the actives are the animals, and Rossum is "curing cancer"?
If you agree with animal testing to save human lives, and hate the Dollhouse, that'll be a slap in the face. And this becomes an animal rights allegory as well.
PuppetDoug | April 03, 08:54 CET
I can see Adelle seeing that to the a major cause worth doing. And it would need a lot of funding.
Definitely something to think about. :)
korkster | April 03, 16:43 CET