"I mean, you can dry clean till judgment day, you are living with those stains."
March 31
2009
Pajiba gives Dollhouse a Mid-Season Review.
Pajiba, who previously gave Dollhouse an extremely negative review after the second episode re-visit the show after episode seven.
Still not liking it.
Nalliac
| Dollhouse
| 04:33 CET
|
54 comments total
| tags: really not liking the show, eliza dushku, negative, echo, pajiba, dollhouse
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Lockescythe | March 31, 04:58 CET
Racoon Boy | March 31, 04:59 CET
However, it's still very early and unfair to write the show off as a failure and lacking in depth, just as it's too early to mark it as a creative success and amazing work. I wish people would stop working in such extremes after seven episodes. Unfortunately, the most prominent issue is whether FOX will let us find out.
pfxcarty | March 31, 05:13 CET
However, I think that he forgets that the weakest episodes of Buffy and Angel tended to be in their first seasons (of course, there were a few exceptions). [This idea makes me even sadder about Firefly's demise because if what we saw was the "worst" of Firefly, my mind can barely imagine what would have been coming]
Finally, the whole "blind fanboy/girl" thing is something you/we will need to get used to. It is a pretty well-used argument that gets thrown around a lot today by people to describe things from popular creators that some people argue aren't so good. I have accused many a person of being blind fanboys/girls due to their love of certain television shows.
Radaar | March 31, 05:19 CET
I like the show, I’m not afraid or “blinded” to say otherwise. If I didn’t like it I wouldn’t waste my time to watch it. I remember seeing an odd episode of ‘Firefly’ and found it as boring as watching paint dry. It took me about a year later to finally just give it a go because I had nothing better to do and I ended up really enjoying it. But I didn’t pretend to like it or watch it just because Whedon wrote it. People are so ridiculous.
The show hasn't hit the highs Btvs or Ats did but neither did they in their first seasons (ok maybe Prophecy Girl). It's still a quality show IMO.
vampmogs | March 31, 05:28 CET
syd | March 31, 05:28 CET
Kingotnw | March 31, 05:31 CET
With that said I'm super intrigued by the idea of "The Awakening" so I am a little excited about that. Hope is definitely still there, those are just my opinions thus far.
TOASTERslayer | March 31, 05:39 CET
You can quote me on that, because I just did.
Go Dollhouse!
FruitPunchMouth27 | March 31, 05:49 CET
I like the show and I am finding myself looking forward to the next episode. I think people want to pick, pick, pick it apart too much sometimes.
CrystalSC | March 31, 05:54 CET
[ edited by TOASTERslayer on 2009-03-31 06:00 ]
TOASTERslayer | March 31, 05:54 CET
I do agree that the imprint-of-the-week thing isn't that good, especially long-term, but I strongly would disagree with his idea of "the show's empty mythology"- I think there's a lot of potential for the mythology here, and Joss is working it slowly. There where a couple of intriguing lines from Adelle last week- about believing in the company and in what they do- that raised a lot of questions in my mind. I do agree that Caroline/Echo isn't that interesting of a character, but that's okay because Boyd is cool enough to keep my interest.
I get the sense that, no matter what he claims, the author expected Dollhouse to blow him away out of the gate, and only get better from there, and his grudge that it didn't made it so he's pretty much inclined to never like the show. Eh, too bad for him. My little sister- who likes Firefly and Doctor Horrible, but refuses to watch Buffy or Angel- loves the show, too, and we've spent a lot of time talking about it, so no matter what this guy thinks, I'm enjoying the show, and not just out of blind loyalty to Joss.
kishi | March 31, 06:25 CET
And last week's wardrobe....I just didn't get it at all.
madmolly | March 31, 06:30 CET
madmooly about Echo's wardrobe, Anime Echo was many guys fantasy and I took it as the show showing the opposite of the returning engagement of Man on the street. Matt was a raunchy young follow instead of the guilt ridden widower.
beckyboo | March 31, 06:42 CET
nyrk | March 31, 07:59 CET
I've had a couple of people (in real life, not here) say to me, "Oh, I hope it's only one season, I like that I can watch all of Firefly in a day." That attitude is more upsetting to me than any negative review. Why would anyone want all of these efforts by all of these wonderful people to fail?
jkalderash | March 31, 08:04 CET
And I know the blind fan thing is going to get thrown around a lot, and maybe I should try to get used to it... But I don't like having other people judge what I should and shouldn't enjoy. And I wish they could find a way to just say people have different opinions without insulting the other person's taste.
snowinhell | March 31, 08:06 CET
He lost me there.
I love that movie! You should have seen my face when I finally had the shiny dvd in my greedy hands :D
Anyhow, I get it if people don't like Dollhouse. It's not an easy popcorn show, it has multiple layers. Heck, I even have problems following it at points, because there is soo much hidden information.
And I'm not a fanboy. I just like shows like this to have a chance. There is too much crap on tv already (gorram reality tv for starters).
Krusher | March 31, 08:24 CET
jaxn | March 31, 08:54 CET
Let Down | March 31, 09:17 CET
madmolly | March 31, 14:10 CET
And of course it too is in grave danger of cancellation so that we can watch Jay Leno amuse himself by interviewing poorly educated folks on the street in prime time five nights a week...
[ edited by Brett on 2009-03-31 17:07 ]
[ edited by Brett on 2009-03-31 17:12 ]
[ edited by Brett on 2009-03-31 17:14 ]
[ edited by Brett on 2009-03-31 18:04 ]
Brett | March 31, 17:07 CET
Of course, the reviewer, in his paragraph "relating" to fanboys, demonstrates that he has trouble coming up with his own opinions sometimes. He posits that if he has trouble deciding if he likes something due to the creator's other output, the rest of the audience must be suffering the same plight. That just strikes me as silly, and bad writing.
In the end, it's more than okay to not like Dollhouse, and express that opinion. It's okay to not like "Elizabethtown" (which I personally loved) and still love Cameron Crowe as a director. But to write about why other people don't share that opinion seems to me a demonstration of not holding a solid personal opinion. This sort of reactionary journalism just seems immature and irresponsible to me.
Of course, that's just my opinion ;-)
narse | March 31, 17:08 CET
rilynil | March 31, 18:03 CET
The high point so far for me has been Eliza's Faith-like fight with the FBI guy. That's not very encouraging.
Loved that scene my self. But I like action movies and series in genereral, so I'm easy to please I guess.
*dreams of having Summer Glau against Eliza*
I'm that shallow I guess *grin*
Krusher | March 31, 18:19 CET
And the Dushku dissing, both in the article and the comments -- it just seems beyond harsh. She made this series possible, she's doing what I find to be some damned good work in it. You can swing a cat at the Emmys and hit scores of lesser actors. What would we all be talking about (not just here, but across the entertainment blogosphere), if not for her?
Tin Ear Tom | March 31, 18:58 CET
violetr | March 31, 19:26 CET
zeitgeist | March 31, 19:37 CET
Krusher | March 31, 19:39 CET
So near as I can tell, no one got called a blind fanboy, though he did criticize some people's unquestioning love of all things Joss. This is creating an argument shift- you can forget about his comments of substance and try to reject his entire argument because of this one comment. Look, this is whedonesque. Get over it; the reason you are here is because you enjoy Joss' work, so own that rather than keep trying to say it is not an issue. It colors how you view his work, and so what? The only thing that matters here is not whether or not you like the show, it is whether or not the show is going to be able to continue after this season, and that seems pretty doubtful to me, despite the recent renewal for 2 years of Friday Night Lights, which would suggest some stations will invest in small circulation but good shows. Like HBO bringing back In Treatment for S2. But I just don't think DH has been so compelling it has earned a second season. It has flaws, and he brought out a good number of them. Say what you will, this is not Joss' best work.
Dana5140 | March 31, 19:44 CET
zeitgeist | March 31, 20:30 CET
The blind allegiance thing grates because it comes across as a form of dismissal; i.e. "I don't like this, and anyone who thinks differently must be basing it on blind allegiance." Frankly, I dis-liked most of late series Angel, so blind allegiance is not me, despite my high regard for Joss and his teams, and my membership on this site. However, I do accept that there is some truth to this assessment (see below).
On the substantive merits of the arguments made against Dollhouse, I disagree with most of the points; that obviously indicates a serious rift in preferences between those reviewers and me. There isn't much you can say to that, except that there are few objective standards in such cases, and we're left with exchanges of "I like it" and "I don't like it."
I don't expect Dollhouse to be renewed; I will be pleasantly surprised if it is, and I hope that it will be, but I'm not counting on it. I think this show is exploring some themes and questions that are new, original, and uncomfortable to many people, and I think that we (the human race) need to address those questions and issues.
Most TV shows, most of the time, don't raise uncomfortable issues. Most TV raises "issues" that aren't new, gives pretty socially-standard (for the USA) "answers" to those issues, and everyone smiles and nods and is comforted and reassured that their world is exactly the way they expected it to be. There is a limited value to that, but just like adding sugar to processed food to make it "taste good," this kind of standard fare has become a crutch for TV and for TV viewers.
One of the reasons I appreciate Joss's work so much is that one of highest forms of praise in his vocabulary is to describe something as "subversive." He values that, it is the kind of thing he wants to create: a piece of art that will not only entertain, but raises questions that are not easily or quickly answered by the viewers. Art that challenges their world-view.
This leads me to a blanket judgement about critics of Dollhouse; they dislike it because the questions it raises are questions they don't want to have to deal with.
Just as with the assessment about "blind" allegiance to Joss, it probably isn't entirely or universally the case. But I think there is truth behind both statements.
PaulfromSunnydale | March 31, 21:00 CET
Odd, I thought I had a better idea of what I was thinking than someone else did.
kishi | March 31, 21:08 CET
a) I don't see much difference between blind loyalty to Joss's work, blind dismissal of his work, and blind loyalty to reviewers' work (whichever reviewer happens to be the flavor of the week.) So far, I don't think Dollhouse is Joss's best work, either - or at least, it hasn't grabbed me like Buffy did - but that doesn't mean that every reviewer with a bone to pick against anything Whedon is dispensing Unvarnished Truth, either.
b) Whether or not we as viewers like the show certainly does matter here; I hope that most of us are here for more than to just sigh about the chances of a second season, and the number of posts dissecting each episode pretty much confirms that.
c) Fifty-three years of viewing has convinced me that if every show had to earn a second season by virtue of being "compelling" TV by the end of six episodes, there would be very few shows that ever made it past their maiden run, including some of those that lasted ten or twelve years...
Rowan Hawthorn | March 31, 21:13 CET
Odd, I thought I had a better idea of what I was thinking than someone else did.
Well kishi your loyalty is clearly blinding you to what you actually think, see ? ;)
"Stupidly optimistic" ? Isn't that basically, y'know, "blind loyalty" ? Ah no, wait - the things he doesn't like are all really there, whereas the things we like or dislike can't be.
Whatever, they're valid complaints because (I assume) that's how the reviewer genuinely feels and in subjective appreciation that makes it valid. The initial 3-4 paragraphs of pre-emptive defence, cherry picking of criticisms, dismissal of opposing viewpoints and broad generalising felt a bit like padding but once the actual review started it was all fair enough, don't agree with a lot of it and I prefer reviews that back up their assertions with justifications but ultimately it's his opinion and he's entitled to both hold it and express it.
(don't remember us being that nasty to him right enough, i'd be surprised if we were allowed to by The Mods That Be ;)
Saje | March 31, 21:17 CET
"Blind loyalty" suggests that the person is insisting that it IS good, even though it is not. The person is blind to the real qualities of the show.
"Stupidly optimistic" suggests that the person knows that there are problems or that it is not great, but remains hopeful that it will be (or sees potential for it to be).
Needless to say, I'd put myself int he latter category.
There is, of course, a third category: actually liking the show for what it is now. There ARE people that fall into that category, too. And they are not all just blindly loyal to Joss.
Edit for embarrassing spelling errors.
[ edited by Septimus on 2009-03-31 21:53 ]
Septimus | March 31, 21:42 CET
It would appear that "said nasty things" is pretty much a euphemism for "disagreed with his opinion"...
Rowan Hawthorn | March 31, 21:45 CET
Also:
Oh, two whole episodes? Generosity unparalleled in human history! I kid, of course, if it doesn't grab you, it doesn't grab you and maybe its just not for you. A thought I much prefer to "everyone who likes/doesn't like it is a big jerkface!".
zeitgeist | March 31, 21:57 CET
I wouldn't say that "stupidly optimistic" that it will get better is the same as "blind loyalty."
"Blind loyalty" suggests that the person is insisting that it IS good, even though it is not. The person is blind to the real qualities of the show.
"Stupidly optimistic" suggests that the person knows that there are problems or that it is not great, but remains hopeful that it will be (or sees potential for it to be).
Right but it's only "blind loyalty" by that definition if it's actually not good i.e. if his opinion is objectively correct. Otherwise the difference between the definitions rests on the claim that people that are enjoying it see NO flaws in it whatsoever.
Which is patently unsupported by reality, as reading the episode threads (even just on here) would tell him. So in other words what he's claiming is "blind loyalty" in others is the same thing he's claiming as "stupidly optimistic" for himself (or rather, they're on the same subjective continuum).
Saje | March 31, 22:08 CET
Septimus | March 31, 22:13 CET
Saje | March 31, 22:25 CET
Other orange people here are also deeply appreciated.
Saje: Well and funnily put.
[ edited by phlebotinin on 2009-03-31 22:37 ]
phlebotinin | March 31, 22:36 CET
However, now even the biggest of fans of Dollhouse aren't really sure how well the story is going, where it's going or if it will even have a chance to span a full arc on broadcast TV.
Further, there really hasn't been a stand-alone example of the show's greatness...like Objects in Space or The Body or You're Welcome (or Smile Time, couldn't pick just one AtS ep). While Man on the Street was the best so far, it didn't feel like a prime example or defining moment for the show.
So you've got a group of highly enthusiastic Joss fans trying to "save" or create buzz for a show that even they aren't sure will be Earth-movingly great...or even on the air in a matter of weeks. That seems to be the difference between then and now. I'm hopeful that this is just a case of an early and limited perspective.
For the record, I've really enjoyed each episode. And if I'm being honest with myself, I'm guilty of giving the show an unfair advantage b/c it's Joss and Eliza and Amy. That being said, I'm glad I did.
alexreager | March 31, 22:52 CET
Ouch! Who's throwing rocks in the fandom?
As for the review itself:
Well... maybe? I guess that's possible. I have no problem with the review as an opinion piece (I'm not in love with the show either, though I'm clearly more entertained by the "mediocre" eps than this reviewer, and I did think Man on the Street was fantastic) but yes, the implication that viewers who are loving it (and even the creator himself!) will eventually come around to sharing his opinion is a bit odd. I assume it was an irritated response to being told he just had to "give it time," and I can understand that. While the very best of any Whedon-made show is often what is "earned" through seasons of character development, if something doesn't engage you or bores you, why would you keep watching?
That said, I found the "blind fan" thing a little off-putting as well. While this is the first time I've watched a TV show because of who is involved, I have many favorite writers whose new books I'll invariably read, and I enjoy some more than others and every now and then I'm really disappointed ... that's normal, right? We admire an artist, so we follow their work. The notion that anybody convinces themselves that they like something when actually they don't is very bizarre though, and I don't think anybody does this. Well, probably there are a few people in the world that do. People do all kinds of wacky things. But most people are pretty much aware of their enjoyment level, methinks.
I'd feel badly if people really said nasty things to / about him, though. If I had his address, I'd send him some cookies.
catherine | April 01, 00:00 CET
Eh, I guess the writer and I have very different sensibilities, because I'm having trouble seeing this one.
He talked about how he was disappointed in the "big kicker" for Man on the Street, which some people here have also stated. First, I think the big kicker was the global nature and hidden mission of the Dollhouse (natural, but it hadn't occurred to me), not the Doll reveal. Second, it doesn't matter how "obvious" something is, if it is executed well. The Doll reveal and the payoff (neck crunch) were well done. By the author's line of thinking, "House" should be a disappointment each and every week, because Greg (once again) figures out the peculiar ailment afflicting the patient.
OneTeV | April 01, 00:21 CET
ETA I just took a second look at the ratings for the past two weeks. Compared to some other shows, I think Dollhouse is doing better than people are giving it credit for.
I don't blame the messenger for bad reviews, because this country is about free speech, it's healthy. I just think that a lot of this man's judgement has to do with Eliza Dushku, and if I'm right and he is trying to condemn a show because of one actress, he is fighting a losing battle, because I don't see a lot of people out there hating Eliza Dushku.
[ edited by sarahi on 2009-04-01 04:07 ]
sarahi | April 01, 04:03 CET
Do I like it as much as I did Buffy or Firefly? No - but then this is a totally different style and type of drama. With all his other projects, the viewers could easily connect their own lives with the situations and stories because they reflected real life troubles every viewers understood or had lived through. Dollhouse is something completely different - the viewer can't relate easily to what the characters are doing on screen - it's all very outside our "real life" reality and not the easy to connect with. This is an important point when viewers speak of "making connections" with the characters. The Dollhouse Actives,for me, are more as abstractions being used to explore a theme.
For me, this works just fine - I like having to change my way of seeing a Joss Whedon project. I don't expect to always have my emotions and heart invested in the characters - but I do expect that the series will ask questions that I have to think about. In my opinion, The Dollhouse is doing that - not at the same level as his other shows, but I will support his efforts and continue to watch.
I personally don't particularly like the weekly Active Story Change but I know that things will eventually all connect.
nmcil | April 01, 04:36 CET
cronopiogal | April 01, 06:02 CET
This is the crux for me. "Dollhouse" might just be the most potent vehicle for parable and allegory Joss has ever concocted. Seven episodes in, it addresses issues and conventions primetime television will normally not touch. I think it could be spun out and mined for seasons worth of thoughtful, challenging, intense entertainment.
Joss has gone on record stating he has blocked out five years worth of story. The very real probability we will be denied that arc just kills me. Because what are the chances of the stars aligning and Mutant Enemy helming a primetime series again -- at least in the near future?
Warts and all, this "Dollhouse" thing has legs. And while I'm not normally fond of perusing warty legs, I'd welcome the opportunity to continue watching these.
(OK, that was the most strained analogy. Ever. I am so sorry.)
Tin Ear Tom | April 01, 07:06 CET
To say that Dollhouse won't get renewed for another season is somewhat ridiculous considering that its renewal will be a result of how well the show does for the rest of the season. If Fox has a sleeper hit on their hands like Buffy was, it's not going to let go.
If none of that made sense, it's because it's 3:30 AM and I'm all hyper from unnatural ammounts of caffeine.
Rune | April 01, 08:28 CET
1starbuckstown | April 01, 14:43 CET
This is what I don't understand. While I may not find the show as compelling as I'd like, nor particularly enjoy Eliza as the lead, other people do. Just because I don't like ice hockey or the WWE, it doesn't mean I want to see them taken off the air. I have friends who would be very disappointed if they were.
redeem147 | April 01, 15:31 CET
But I think the reason a Whedon fan might want Dollhouse not to be renewed would be so that Joss could concentrate on something else. Whereas, I can't imagine most of us are chomping at the bit to see what hockey players or wrestlers would be doing if they only had more time.
Septimus | April 01, 16:05 CET
Actually, that's not fair cos i'd totally watch "Whedon Knows Best" ;).
Saje | April 01, 16:13 CET