Whedonesque : Comments on 19894 : (SPOILER) Dollhouse's renewal "in limbo", says Joss.

:(

And I was so in love with the idea that I just came up with off the top of my head, and that's what it turned into. It's one of the best episodes we've ever made

It's the Dr Horrible ethos on a grand scale. Kudos.

Simon | April 15, 08:17 CET

Wow. First time I heard about the 'theme' of the episode, and it sounds awesome. Don't want to know anymore, but I can't wait... well I'll guess I have to thanks to Fox. Grr.

SteppeMerc | April 15, 08:34 CET

Joss' comments on a renewal sound so glum and depressing :(

I can’t believe Fox was considering a “clip show” … “shudders” Those things are so pointless and tacky.

I don't know about anyone else but I'm really excited for this 13th episode. It took me by huge surprise when I found out Eliza isn't even starring in it but it really intrigues me. Felicia's the Fray to Eliza's Buffy. :D

vampmogs | April 15, 08:35 CET

Took a rare leap that "mild" actually meant mild and yep, it was mild enough. Felicia Day, post apocalyptic, 'nuff said - i'm so very there ;).

Thanks Joss for being all inspired and also thanks to 20th Century for not just saying "Nope, you have to do a clip show" when they could've.

Saje | April 15, 08:47 CET

I officially hate Fox...wait, I already hated it! What is the next level of hate?
What is it with good television that Fox just can't take it?
But I'm still optimistic! :D

drunkenbones | April 15, 08:50 CET

It sounds freaking amazing! And it also says that there is some regular cast in it. I REALLY WANT TO WATCH EPISODE 13. That is all. :)

korkster | April 15, 08:55 CET

Meh. I'd so much rather have a second season with the regular cast.

Sorry, not really an FD fan.

*waits to be pummeled with rocks*

Of course I'll still be buying the dvd and watching it. Because I am Joss' bitch.

ShanshuBugaboo | April 15, 09:02 CET

So they need a 13th episode for 'foreign'? Meaning that this episode will air in the UK I assume?

Vortigun | April 15, 09:04 CET

I'd consider that spoiler a lot more than "mild". As in, more like "major".
But maybe that's just me.

Shey | April 15, 09:05 CET

So, who is now in the ep? He's talking about "four other people". The casting call back in the day was looking for 5 guest stars. And there's Felicia. And peppers from "different bits from our regular cast". I'm confused. And excited.

[ edited by wiesengrund on 2009-04-15 09:37 ]

wiesengrund | April 15, 09:27 CET

The fact that even Joss seems convinced that all hope for a second season is gone makes me incredibly sad. :(

jiggyfly | April 15, 09:41 CET

* Slings a rock in ShanshuBugaboo's direction. There ;)

(Seriously though, who doesn't like Felicia Day, pfft ;))

Anyway, the more I hear about this, the more I want to see it. And new tidbit: the Dollhouse is apareantly still there, after the apacolypse. Which lends strength to some of the previous theories I've seen here regarding the nature of the apacolypse.

(and yeah, I'd consider these spoilers rather major as well ;))

GVH | April 15, 10:04 CET

jiggyfly, I guess it does make sense that he'd want to prepare us for the worst. I'm still hoping.

GVH, I know, I know. I am evil :)

[ edited by ShanshuBugaboo on 2009-04-15 10:15 ]

ShanshuBugaboo | April 15, 10:09 CET

Haven't we been prepared for the worst since the show began? Hell, since we first heard that it was going to be on Fox? I know I have. The fact we are now looking at the show's almost certain cancelation is one of my less surprising developments of 2009.

I've tried to be open minded about Nu-Fox but I always had my doubts that, no matter how different the PtB there might now be, compared to Firefly times anyway, Fox was not the right home for a Joss Whedon show. The standard Fox fan is not the standard Joss fan so finding an audience outside of the Whedon faithful was almost impossible from the start. Add that to moving the show back to mid-season and hiding it away on a Friday night just doomed the show all the more. Yeah, there were positive points and reasoning to both those moves but, as we have seen, not positive enough.

The Highlander | April 15, 10:24 CET

Well at least it sounds like I will get to see episode 13 on Sci-Fi UK rather than have to wait for the DVD (which I will probably buy anyway). This final episode actually sounds really interesting.

Otherwise, it seems clearer than ever that we are not going to get a second series, which is a shame as it has finally started to find it's stride

mgmn | April 15, 10:37 CET

The DVD will come out before "Epitaph One" airs on Sci-Fi UK.

wiesengrund | April 15, 10:56 CET

I'm editing out the "mild". I'm sorry if you learned more than you wanted about it.

News on Dollhouse have been one downer after another for the most part, at least since the move to Friday and the less than enthusiastic endorsement by the network people. Was it even gloomier during Firefly's run?

nyrk | April 15, 11:28 CET

If I'm right, Dollhouse airs on Global in Canada at the same time as it does in America. So we'll do a discussion thread for episode 13 at the usual time for our Canadian chums and anyone using binoculars to watch it from the States *ahem*.

Simon | April 15, 11:30 CET

My binoculars are good enough I guess, I can see the back of my head with them *grin*

Krusher | April 15, 11:34 CET

I wonder what Joss will do next, besides cabin and the dr. horrible sequel. He better not retire or i'll be vexed.

Squishy | April 15, 11:39 CET

Serving Girl, Serving Girl, Serving Girl ! Err, ahem, Serving Girl gets my vote ;).

The DVD will come out before "Epitaph One" airs on Sci-Fi UK.

Probably not in the UK though (i.e. the R2 DVD will arrive after it airs).

Saje | April 15, 12:05 CET

If I'm right, Dollhouse airs on Global in Canada at the same time as it does in America. So we'll do a discussion thread for episode 13 at the usual time for our Canadian chums and anyone using binoculars to watch it from the States *ahem*.

Simon, if you're implying what I think you're implying, that's possibly the best thing I've heard all day - given that I've seen several Global shows in the UK from *ahem* sources, I may not need to wait until June!

jamesthegill | April 15, 12:15 CET

You know things aren't good when the Boss-man has little hope... Hmm. It feels like the weeks before I was retrenched (last month), but I was looking forward to that cancellation. ;)

:(

[ edited by Braeden Fireheart on 2009-04-15 12:24 ]

Braeden Fireheart | April 15, 12:24 CET

I find it so incredibly sad that I didn't think, as a Canadian, that we would be foreign enough to have episode 13 broadcast here. Oy.

Knuckleball | April 15, 12:36 CET

Well, there's really nothing here that we didn't already know about. All Joss says is that the chances aren't good of getting renewed, but it's in limbo, but he's hopeful. I take that to mean that there aren't many active negotiations going on though Fox hasn't decided anything definitively, and that Joss is hopeful for an uptick in ratings or some other miracle to convince them to pick it up.

Septimus | April 15, 12:41 CET

Is serving girl the ballet thing with summer glau? I want that but I also want a tv show. That's not too much to ask right? Umm, better make that two tv shows. And the buffy comic. That would be a good start.

Squishy | April 15, 13:19 CET

I'm still awaiting confirmation on if Global are going to air episode 13 or not.

gossi | April 15, 13:21 CET

This is the best show on television, and it keeps getting better.

Pointy | April 15, 13:31 CET

Ah, binoculars. The shoe's on the other foot, this time around. Is this all some clever conspiracy hatched by international viewers for the Dr. Horrible thing?

Sunfire | April 15, 13:40 CET

Did you think we'd just forget ?

Is serving girl the ballet thing with summer glau? I want that but I also want a tv show.

Yep. And it won't get in the way of a TV show since it shouldn't take too long to make (IIRC it was always intended to be a short).

That said, assuming 'Dollhouse' does get cancelled, I don't see Joss going back to TV in a hurry (not unless he can strike one hell of a deal with e.g. a cable channel). Once, as they say, is happenstance, twice is coincidence but another show would make it three times. And three times is enemy action - right now Joss has to feel like US network TV has got it in for him (especially compared with how easy and fun Dr Horrible was).

(said it before but i'll say it again, come to Blighty Joss, BBC shows tend to have guaranteed - albeit short - runs. So long as you can make it on 20 pence and a bag of chips ;)

Saje | April 15, 13:42 CET

So is the 13th episode actually the pilot for the series Joss will do on a cable network when Fox cancels Dollhouse?

mr_waterproof | April 15, 13:47 CET

Would that it were so, mr_waterproof, would that it were so.

Sadly, I think that unless someone get sreally creative at Fox and signs Joss on for a BSG-style, shot-on-digital, with cheaper (non-Eliza, unfortunately) actors, FX series that picks up on the post-apocalyptic storyline, Dollhouse is not going to transition to cable.

Septimus | April 15, 14:13 CET

I realize that Joss might be feeling discouraged about network tv. But TV is his forte. It needs him. And I need it to have him. So I say, cheer up, think positive, pick some cool cable network, and start doing things.

Squishy | April 15, 14:44 CET

well, when we say "TV is his forte," I think what we really mean is "serialized motion picture is his forte." Right? In the wild world of new media, that could mean something besides TV, like an internet series.

Septimus | April 15, 14:47 CET

What is it with good television that Fox just can't take it?

Might want to think about "what is it about good television that the American public won't stay tuned for?" Which is a sadder thought...

That said, assuming 'Dollhouse' does get cancelled, I don't see Joss going back to TV in a hurry (not unless he can strike one hell of a deal with e.g. a cable channel). Once, as they say, is happenstance, twice is coincidence but another show would make it three times. And three times is enemy action - right now Joss has to feel like US network TV has got it in for him (especially compared with how easy and fun Dr Horrible was).

Sadly, it is the nature of the business; a million chances of being dropped before you even make it to air and then you are dependent on viewers and advertisers and PR people. Look at poor Tim :).

well, when we say "TV is his forte," I think what we really mean is "serialized motion picture is his forte." Right? In the wild world of new media, that could mean something besides TV, like an internet series.

Amen.

zeitgeist | April 15, 14:55 CET

Fair point, Septimus. An internet series might work, but I kinda still want 22 episodes per season, and regular weekly installments between 40-60 minutes long. And it would be good if we also had A list Whedon alum actors, like say, NPH, SMG, Nathan, David B., Seth Green, etc. These are some of my wants.

Squishy | April 15, 14:56 CET

Except for NPH, none of those people WERE A-list actors before Joss got a hold of them. I like seeing how he works with new people.

Septimus | April 15, 15:00 CET

Yes, another good point. But I still want some Whedon alums mixed in.

Squishy | April 15, 15:05 CET

Basically, nobody is going to churn out extremely high quality, great looking drama 22 episodes a year. You aren’t going to get that cast. Until it pays money.

gossi | April 15, 15:08 CET

Sadly, it is the nature of the business; a million chances of being dropped before you even make it to air and then you are dependent on viewers and advertisers and PR people. Look at poor Tim :).

Yeah very true z but Tim seems to have made his peace with it in a way that Joss seemingly hasn't. I don't mean TM's overjoyed at constantly getting knocked back at 13 episodes (if that) but he's said a few times that he doesn't mind only getting to tell truncated stories so long as he's still telling stories whereas Joss seems to fall body and soul into his universes and wants to see them fully realised at least as much as we do.

Saje | April 15, 15:10 CET

Also Joss tends to want to jump all the way into the things that audiences and networks are unsure of at first. It's a formula for trouble, I think. Also win, but the kind of win that tends to get canceled after a few episodes.

Sunfire | April 15, 15:17 CET

I never said the cast was remotely realistic. Just that I want it. In all seriousness though, I think it's very realistic to hope for 22 high-quality episodes per year. It's certainly been done before, especially by Joss. That said, I don't know one way or the other whether it could be done in an internet series, i.e., without studio support.

Squishy | April 15, 15:18 CET

So.. maybe it has already been said.. but wasn't that the secret whedonite signal for "start the campaigns"? I know we decided to back off early because the show hadn't actually started and stufffss...yeah, I don't know about you guys, but I really don't want Dollhouse to be canceled.

almost cookies | April 15, 15:21 CET

You know... the idea still makes me nervous. Even now. It does seem like now would be the time though.

I think the secret signal should be "boysenberries."

Sunfire | April 15, 15:26 CET

I was wondering if we couldn't put together some sort of "Catch up on Dollhouse online during its off week" campaign.

A Youtube catch-up video with links to the Hulu showings of the latest (awesome, totally-likely-to-hook-new-viewers-if-they-watch-it-and-have-a-sense-of-what's-going-on) episode would be awesome. It would be cool to see Dollhouse stay near the top of the Hulu streams, even when there wasn't a new episode shown that week.

Septimus | April 15, 15:26 CET

Now that idea I like a lot. (I turn, adroitly dime-like.) So maybe the full list would be something like:

-- Catch up on episodes
-- Blog about the story so far
-- Tell your friends
-- A collection of links to key episodes and clips

I keep posting new episodes in my Facebook stream, but at most I get comments from friends asking "Has it gotten good? I didn't like eps 1-3 and stopped." Now might be a good time to post certain clips again. Like the kitchen fight. I think that scene is wonderful for showing Buffy fans in particular.

Sunfire | April 15, 15:34 CET

Well, let me put it in perspective: according to Variety, 90% of TV shows fail to make it past their first year. And whilst you may love Lost, Heroes, whatever - take a moment to think of all the shows which start each year (LOADS) and how many make it to the end (hardly any).

Joss created Buffy - 144 episodes and Angel - 110 episodes. Then Firefly, which got cancelled. If Dollhouse fails to get picked back up, he needs to create another 7 series which fail in their first season to qualify for hitting the TV average.

Additionally, Buffy and Angel are both international TV hits, sold all over the world, and B, A and Firefly all sold more DVDs can we can count on all our fingers. If anybody thinks Joss is failing at Fox - no, he ain't.

gossi | April 15, 15:34 CET

I was thinking of something like that but not as good.. heh. Can anybody put one together?

almost cookies | April 15, 15:35 CET

WGS^tm.

zeitgeist | April 15, 15:36 CET

whedon geek signal?

almost cookies | April 15, 15:40 CET

Quick, to the Whedon-mobile !

If anybody thinks Joss is failing at Fox - no, he ain't.

No-one here has previously said the word 'fail' except you gossi (I did a ctrl-F ;) and even if he'd only created BtVS Joss would've done more than many professional TV creators, his credentials as successful show-runner aren't now and never were in question.

So it's not has he failed in any statistical sense at Fox, the question is how does he feel about the process and experience of creating network TV ? And that seems to be overwhelmingly "It is filled with suck". He didn't fail at Fox, Fox failed at him.

Saje | April 15, 15:46 CET

That's a good perspective Gossi. It is just the way the system works. I wish more people thought like that, because so many, including fans, are quick to talk about it as a failure.

I'll be happy with 13 episodes, if that's all we get, because I think they're going to answer a lot of questions and it will feel like a complete story, even if there's always that nagging "what could've been". Also, it's not like Joss is going to give up telling stories.

flugufrelsarinn | April 15, 15:47 CET

almost cookies- it's What Gossi Said.
(Which, come to think, is pretty much one and the same as a Whedon Geek Signal.)

I'm holding steady on the panic-meter until tomorrow's Paley Fest mutterings come out. From this and other accounts, Joss looks to be over the 'picking apart' and may be prepared to cut his losses and move on to the many other things he has planned.

But if it comes out that Joss is holding onto hope (and I really think he should be, as 'Dollhouse' hasn't even scratched the surface yet) and if he really does want us to mobilize, then consider it done. With bells on!

[ edited by missb on 2009-04-15 16:00 ]

missb | April 15, 15:49 CET

gossi, I agree, I don't think he's failing at all. I'm saying I hope he doesn't give up on TV. But maybe you weren't talking to me...

Squishy | April 15, 15:51 CET

Joss isn't a television failure, but he'd probably be a happier television success producing TV shows on cable.

KingofCretins | April 15, 15:52 CET

I don't think he's talking to anyone directly, seems to be just throwing it out there. And it's a worthwhile perspective so why not ?

Saje | April 15, 15:54 CET

Yes, I pretty much agree with Saje above.

ETA, hmmm, not directly above, but above that. Though I don't disagree with the above either...

[ edited by Squishy on 2009-04-15 16:13 ]

Squishy | April 15, 15:55 CET

He didn't fail at Fox, Fox failed at him.

Fox definitely failed from my perspective in what meddling they did to push it towards MotW and in not advertising it enough/correctly. I also blame the viewing public in general for demanding quality, challenging shows and then not watching them (or maybe the pool of us demanding challenging show is smaller than I thought).

zeitgeist | April 15, 16:04 CET

Didn't help that the first four episodes were not the best to put it mildy. You could fanwank that Joss delibrately set out to make run-of-the-mill fodder as to contrast with the powerful and brilliant second half of the season. But five years out of the game, he and his team took a while to find their way in a television show that was based on a trip to the loo. Unfortunately in today's "you must please me immediately" climate, the naysayers weren't prepared to cut them any slack.

Simon | April 15, 16:14 CET

I, frankly, don't really care who is to blame for the early missteps on Dollhouse. It's really good now, has potential to be even better, and I want it to continue. That's what we should focus on.

As far as a fan-campaign. I think tht one targeted at actually getting people to watch the show is better than one targeted at Fox. That is to say, get people to catch up this week and then get them to actually watch next week. (The network is not the only one that can create "event' TV.)

(I, of course, am full of big, vague ideas, but cant' do much beyond that, and changing my Facebook status to a link to "A Spy in the House of Love." But, you know, someone should do what I'm talking about.)

Septimus | April 15, 16:16 CET

Based on the numbers we've seen, I suspect that, on the contrary, the MOTW push early accomplished exactly what FOX was hoping it would, and let the audience settle in before introducing the mythology. This is based in part on the assumption that its stable 3.5 isn't all hard-core Whedon fans who would give him pretty much any and all leeway he might need because he's Joss.

Had the series plowed immediately into mythologically-intensive stories, I find it more likely that the show would have gotten pulled than that we'd be where we are, with at least the full arc of the season definitely being shown.

I never blame the audience. If the audience doesn't like your show, that's a 90% "your show" problem.

Look, I like "Dollhouse", I love it. But I am, and I hope others are, at least objectively open to the possibility that even amidst the demand for quality, challenging shows, the premise of "Dollhouse" just may not have been what that viewing public was crying out for. I don't think the viewing public's demand for quality, challenging shows meant they were promising to watch any show so long as it was a quality, challenging show.

KingofCretins | April 15, 16:16 CET

In general I think people are happier saying they want to be challenged than they are actually being challenged. As to the MotW that's broken record territory for me ;) but I still do genuinely think MotW isn't necessarily an issue that precludes good TV - Buffy, Angel and Firefly were all very MotW, certainly early on anyway.

But, sort of ironically given the show's subject matter, being made to make it more MotW does seem to be an issue in that it seems to have made it difficult for Joss and the other writers to actually produce their best work (by Joss' own account - personally I liked most of the first 5 episodes a fair bit though i'd concede they're not his best stuff).

[ edited by Saje on 2009-04-15 16:17 ]

Saje | April 15, 16:16 CET

I don't think Mission Of The Week is a weakness. I think Missions that kinda suck are. See also, the art theft caper that made no sense whatsoever. I loves me some capers. That one was absolutely terrible.

Sunfire | April 15, 16:20 CET

What? The art theft caper was the best MOTW (with the possible exception of "True Believer.") You're clearly crazy! ;)

Septimus | April 15, 16:23 CET

Out of the five originals, "Stage Fright" was the only one that didn't work for me. Yet I've still watched it numerous times, because there's stuff I like in it.

Love Ghost. Love Grey Hour. True Believer and The Target I thought were very good.

Did these second half episodes take it to another level? Yeah. But, IMO, the five originals laid the pipe to allow us to get there. Allowed build-up. Not just character and plot wise, but also in easing viewers into the concept.

pat32082 | April 15, 16:26 CET

I don't think that the MotW is a problem in and of itself, I think espisodes that focus solely on the MotW without a view into how it relates to the Dollhouse are... sorry if I wasn't clear there. MotW to the EXCLUSION of other things is problematic. MotW is fine as a framework to explore.

zeitgeist | April 15, 16:30 CET

I can't wait to watch this episode now.

Ameer | April 15, 16:31 CET

The art caper was "and now we must carefully follow the red pipe!" only uh, every step of the plan. I didn't dislike that episode overall, since it had other stronger merits, and I remember being surprised by just how negative many of the comments were. But I was baffled by the heisting anti-logic of the art theft parts.

And I agree with what zeitgeist really meant (sorry, I misunderstood you before)-- I think there's been a disconnect between the Mission Of The Week and the overall arc. The connection's always there but it usually felt odd to me early on, and I'm a pretty closely-watching viewer. I can't imagine how weird it must've been to people watching it less intensely than I was. Much of the key stuff in "Grey Hour" was more subtle and implied rather than stated. The various good parts just never really gelled into a good episode of tv. A silly caper plot doesn't stand out so much if the story's compelling otherwise. And this one was in some ways and wasn't in others.

Sunfire | April 15, 16:40 CET

So.. who's working on this catch up video? I'm working on my blog to promote Dollhouse.. but this video would be nice to link to.

almost cookies | April 15, 16:41 CET

I have no vid skills. :( I can make a list of clips to link to on Hulu. But there's only 5 episodes up nowadays. Beautiful logic, there.

Sunfire | April 15, 16:43 CET

I don't agree that jumping into mythology right off the bat is necessarily a problem, certainly not when it's done well. And I certainly don't think they needed to have five or six MotW's. If they needed any, they at most needed only one (though I'm skeptical that they even needed one). BTW, I kinda think of ep 7, Echoes, as MotW-ish, but maybe that's only because I thought it, along with True Believer, was one of the weakest episodes.

Squishy | April 15, 16:44 CET

I really hope that it gets picked up for a second season in some capacity. Full season. Half season. On another network (be it broadcast, cable, premium or whatnot). A movie. Internet shorts. WHATEVER!

I love this show.

Don't break my heart, Fox. Not again.

[ edited by -DED- on 2009-04-15 16:50 ]

-DED- | April 15, 16:48 CET

And I certainly don't think they needed to have five or six MotW's.

Well as I say, it worked pretty well for Buffy, Angel and Firefly.

And not only do I have no vid skills i'm also lazy and basically too pessimistic about this kind of thing. I agree though, someone else should definitely do something, stat ! ;)

MotW to the EXCLUSION of other things is problematic. MotW is fine as a framework to explore.

Agreed but I guess i'm saying, I don't think the first five are MotW to the exclusion of other things. I mean I totally accept the first five weren't as related as Joss wanted (cos he's said so ;) but they still clearly had dollhouse related themes and even arc development for the most part. Probably my least favourite episode, 'Stage Fright', arguably had more of the themes in one episode and more explicitly depicted than any other of the first 5, maybe even the later eps too.

As pat32082 says, none of the episodes from 6-9 would've really worked earlier on (the idea of MitS would work well, if maybe not a lot of the content - anywhere pre 4 would feel too early for Ballard to meet "Caroline" for instance, IMO obviously).

(the plot of 'Gray Hour' was a bit meh and/or not entirely hole free but the character stuff and themes really worked for me)

[ edited by Saje on 2009-04-15 16:49 ]

Saje | April 15, 16:49 CET

Well, havn't seen any episode here in europe, but than seven times pure joss plus 6 times joss with fox meddling is still better than the nothing we have seen for quite a while. So if they stop it now, I will still enjoy, what I will get. And maybe it is even for the better of us all, since it may give joss the liberty to experiment with the web some more, which worked great so far ;)

Snugels | April 15, 16:49 CET

Yeah that's my problem with "Grey Hour"-- all the good stuff is the themes and Echo character stuff. Those are great and what I like about WhedonTV but you shouldn't have to wait for themes to resonate before you get to the good stuff. There should be good stuff at the top that encourages the waiting around and digging deeper to begin with. That's why Buffy worked so well. But here, the good parts were too buried among the other not-so-good parts, which gives you no real incentive for digging unless you are a bit of a manic Whedon fan, in which case you arrived with the mental equivalent of a spade and a map of likely good spots anyway.

[ edited by Sunfire on 2009-04-15 16:57 ]

Sunfire | April 15, 16:57 CET

Agreed but I guess i'm saying, I don't think the first five are MotW to the exclusion of other things.

Not completely, but I feel the balance was off and 'Stage Fright' had so much going on that it felt like it had been subjected to an editing massacre and thus had tone and pacing issues.

zeitgeist | April 15, 16:58 CET

Not to reiterate what others have said, but I still think if Joss could move to cable he would do better. Cable can take more risks. Look at HBO, putting a second season of the high-quality In Treatment on TV again, even though the show had numbers much poorer than DH ever will. He should consider working in that medium, since it will allow him greater dreative liberty and leeway in his story telling, and he will be less constrained by meddling and interference.

Dana5140 | April 15, 17:11 CET

Dollhouse keeps growing on me as it progresses. To be honest, the first batch of episodes probably would have lost me if it was a show by a different creator, but I gave it a chance, and everything from ep.4 onward has been very strong.

With that said, if I was a just watching the show of my own volition since I saw some ads and heard it might be good, I would have stopped watching 2/3 of the way through Stage Fright, and never watched it again. And that's not because I have an aversion to "giving something a chance," but because an hour a week spent on something I don't like since it might get good sounds like a waste of otherwise valuable time.

I don't actually blame Fox for the creative problems as well. The fact is that Dollhouse has a premise which should easily allow quality stand-alone stories, while also allowing for a lot of character development. Imo the standalones weren't good stories. Even Grey Hour wasn't a great plot, it just delved deeper into the mythology in an interesting way. Asking for fairly stand-alone stories to build an audience isn't asking for a whole lot.

rabid | April 15, 17:20 CET

This show is telling brilliant stories around the questions that matter to me the most. What's the difference between a real hero and a wannabe? What do we learn about someone when we see his or her ideal romance? What stories do we tell ourselves to bring us closer to the truth, and which ones do we tell to keep the truth at bay? What is it about Alias anyway? It would take a few years for Dollhouse to rival Buffy in my book, but Joss and his Mutant Friends are going deep and scoring. I'd hate to see it end.

ETA link to many, many words about the latest ep.

[ edited by Pointy on 2009-04-15 17:28 ]

Pointy | April 15, 17:23 CET

I don't think Mission Of The Week is a weakness. I think Missions that kinda suck are. My thoughts exactly sunfire! Or actually: mostly my thoughts! I agree that the main problem of the show is that some of the EotWs have been pretty bad (the one in The Target, Stage Fright, Gray Hour, the first short one in Echo all were pretty bad, IMO), though I also think a show less centered on one long engagement containing several shorter subplots might have made a bit faster, more exciting structure. Also I don't think the art caper was that bad "every step of the plan", I think it started out pretty good, but really took a dive on the nose after the remote-wipe.

Also mostly agree with Squishy: I think "jumping into mythology right off the bat" not only definitely can work, but would have worked a lot better on Dollhouse. I think that with a the Dead Zone- (first one that comes to mind) like structure, first taking a couple of "mythology" episodes to introduce the world, then going to "whatever of the week" mode, Dollhouse would have been more engaging. Basically I think it would have worked better if the later eps would have been first and the first eps later.

Anyway, I haven't read the article, but think I still picked up most of the spoilers in this thread. A bit of a shame, but it does sound awesome. Also post-apocalyptic cable (FX?) sequal to Dollhouse, centering on Felicia, totally up for that! Can hardly wait for it, so I hope it does get aired in Canada!

the Groosalugg | April 15, 17:31 CET

I also fail at videoing.. but I'm going to get active with this campaigning thing. I don't want another 1 season Joss show. I want more. I want to be with these guys for years. I just posted a note on Facebook, if you want to make any suggestions or if you want to comment/like it and link your friends. We have to do something. I'm not understanding the large number of people who don't want this to end but aren't really willing to do anything about it. So yeah, I'm not a writer and this may be terrible to read, so some suggestions/corrections would be appreciated as I want it to help save Dollhouse. Facebook Note

almost cookies | April 15, 18:19 CET

Sadly, only your Facebook friends can see your note, almost cookies, not the rest of us.

Septimus | April 15, 18:26 CET

I made it so that everyone can see it. It should work now.
Ahh crazy privacy settings on facebook. NOW everyone should be able to see my note. I will work on getting this onto myspace and maybe i'll dig up my blogger account tonight.

[ edited by almost cookies on 2009-04-15 18:37 ]

almost cookies | April 15, 18:27 CET

*shrug* idunno...

the link just takes me to my Facebook homepage (but I'm on IE at work, with which Facebook ahs never played nicely, so I could very well be wrong).

Septimus | April 15, 18:30 CET

I can see it!

Sunfire | April 15, 18:44 CET

Yes! Now I'm all exposed and embarrassed. Heh. But.. for the greater good!

almost cookies | April 15, 18:47 CET

Well, in case Joss' career is a democracy, I also want to vote for Serving Girl.
Actually, I vote for Joss writing lots of stuff for Summer Glau, including a large role in Dollhouse's second season.

jcs | April 15, 18:52 CET

*looks through all of almost cookies's most embarrassing Facebook stuff*

Wow, those are some really weird photos of you.

Kidding! I see no such things. Just a nice long note. I like the idea of people using notes to get their friends' attention on Facebook.

Sunfire | April 15, 19:02 CET

I still think Dollhouse will be renewed. And in order to believe that, I have to believe that Joss is taking the tactic of being passive and accepting of whatever the network decides in order to show his respect for the network. If he were to take the other tactic of badmouthing the network and asking for fans to harass the execs, the execs would turn against the show.

I expect they're going to give Dollhouse a second 13 episode season, and put it on a weeknight to see if it will win a bigger audience now that its growing pains are done.

will.bueche | April 15, 19:04 CET

I would like to see another 13-episode arc of Dollhouse, if for no other reason to see if it could build an audience. But it seems pretty clear that Fox's meddling in the first four episodes probably killed any real chance the show had.

That said, Dollhouse is (in my opinion) not Joss's best work. The show has steadily improved, and I've grown to really like it. However, I can't really blame Fox much if they cancel it. I think the show would do well on SciFi, but they aren't likely to pick it up. Am I the only one here who senses that, maybe, possibly, Joss's heart wasn't in this as much as his other shows?

ern | April 15, 19:34 CET

man, will.bueche, i wish i had your optimism. much as id like to see the show continue on, my inner pessimism is telling me that that sort of hoping is just an exercise in futility.

i don't think i'll ever understand why joss whedon didn't look at cable channels for his show. scifi had a massively successful run of battlestar, shows like big love and the tudors on hbo and showtime - there are ways of getting your show out there aside from just the major networks. here's hoping he explores other avenues.

gchucky | April 15, 19:44 CET

I, along with everyone I know that watches it (my family, and one of my friends) loved the show from the start, so I really don't see the whole the first few episodes sucked thing. I know Joss said they did (more or less) but I enjoyed them more than I enjoyed the first few episodes of Buffy (except for Stage Fright).

And while I would love to put all the blame on Fox, I really think the blame is at the American viewers. Fox put it on Friday, mispromoted it, meddled, etc., but people interested in good TV still should have watched it. KoC, I know that you are the opinion that that is not the right path, but I disagree. When people would rather watch super nannies or dancing stars or shows about desperate people clutching towards a few minutes of fame by embarrassing themselves on TV, instead of watching a Joss Whedon show, there is something clearly not right with the viewers.

[ edited by SteppeMerc on 2009-04-15 19:45 ]

SteppeMerc | April 15, 19:44 CET

i don't think i'll ever understand why joss whedon didn't look at cable channels for his show. scifi had a massively successful run of battlestar, shows like big love and the tudors on hbo and showtime

Yeah but FOX had Eliza Dushku. She asked him to help make a tv show, and she had a producer contract with FOX.

Sunfire | April 15, 19:48 CET

Just a quick note. Please try to use correct capitalization/punctuation in your posts as it renders them much easier for folks to read and understand quickly.

zeitgeist | April 15, 19:49 CET

As much as I'd like to see how this show would develop now that it has characters with humanity and plots that involve compelling questions without easy answers, I wouldn't wish another year of Fox TV on anyone whose work I enjoy and admire. Joss should be free to do work that pleases him, not work that is a result of gut-wrenching negotiations with people who don't understand or appreciate what he's doing.

dorkenheimer | April 15, 19:51 CET

I think we are overemphasizing the plight here... Joss said that there are good folks at Fox now and its not the grief he had with Firefly and only seems horrible compared to the complete freedom of Dr.H.

zeitgeist | April 15, 20:13 CET

I like Dollhouse. It makes me happy in my tummy. I look forward to the ratings tripling when coupled with Prison Break and Joss signing a 5-season contract.

stuffy | April 15, 20:34 CET

So, Epitaph is airing in Canada then? I'm at the moment one confused Canuck.

chayes | April 15, 20:36 CET

Really, stuffy?

I like Dollhouse, too. But it makes me feel funny/bad in my tummy.

Septimus | April 15, 20:44 CET

It could air here. All Firefly's episodes aired on Space, though that was after the show was off Fox. I suppose it depends on the deal made with Canwest.

redeem147 | April 15, 20:46 CET

Yeesh. i don't like hearing that the chances are "not very good" coming out of whedon's mouth. I'm seriously upset by this. *sigh*

IvyWinter | April 15, 21:09 CET

Well, in case Joss' career is a democracy, I also want to vote for Serving Girl.

I think i've just had an idea for a reality show I might actually watch ...

But it seems pretty clear that Fox's meddling in the first four episodes probably killed any real chance the show had.

And so it begins ...

Saje | April 15, 21:09 CET

Oh, I think it began seconds after the show was announced, Saje :).

zeitgeist | April 15, 21:20 CET

Probably but that's going to be where it officially began for me. I think there's room for two places it began, like the Queen's birthday(s) ;).

Saje | April 15, 21:23 CET

The Queen has two birthdays? Wow, I want two birthdays... how do I apply to get another one?

SteppeMerc | April 15, 21:29 CET

Joss made me cry in the bad way.

wilder | April 15, 21:31 CET

how do I apply to get another one?

Are you a reigning monarch?

Simon | April 15, 21:33 CET

When it comes to Dollhouse, we tend to recycle old arguments. This isn't a judgement on my part, just an observation, but every time the blame game starts everything goes back to a few key points:

o1. NüFox isn't supposed to be as evil as Old!Fox.
o2. Eliza had the deal with Fox, Joss came to the table as a favor.
o3. The first batch of episodes are of the devil.
04. Cable networks are the light at the end of the tunnel.

But what's happening with the campaign? Let's light a fire under our picnic feet. If we can kick Glory's ass with a wrecking ball, the Buffy!Bot and Olaf the Troll God's hammer... if the Reavers can be used to give the Alliance their comeuppance, then this is the time to keep Dollhouse from getting sent to the Attic.

I think we should call it "Operation: Grassroot Boysenberries."

[ edited by CrazyKidBen on 2009-04-15 21:34 ]

[ edited by CrazyKidBen on 2009-04-15 21:35 ]

CrazyKidBen | April 15, 21:34 CET

I love Dollhouse. I know I'm predisposed to fall in Love with anything that comes from Joss Whedon's brain but I really do love Dollhouse and each week it gets closer and closer to Love. I have every intention of watching Dollhouse Season Two and each Season that comes after that.

bloodyrockerswitch | April 15, 21:35 CET

I had a little more hope before Joss himself came right out and said that it probably won't be renewed. I think if there was a decent shot he wouldn't be saying things like that, especially after his cool speech at Harvard about faith.

Squishy | April 15, 21:49 CET

To be honest, if I was an exec (which means I have absolute power over renewal or not) and I started getting mail demanding I don't cancel a show, the first thought it would inspire in my mind is "cancellation". It's something to keep in mind.

gossi | April 15, 21:59 CET

*contemplatively* So if we demand the exec does cancel it ...

Saje | April 15, 22:04 CET

gossi's executive style is Malevolent Dictator. I'm impressed.

Sunfire | April 15, 22:08 CET

Joss and ED should of done a "Faith, The Vampire Slayer" series. As for "Dollhouse", every time I see the character "Topher" on my screen, I scream and change the channel!

Little Green Kid | April 15, 22:15 CET

Really? I think there's medication for that.

chayes | April 15, 22:26 CET

I'm not saying we send a mass amount of tobasco sauce to the execs, because even though it worked for Roswell I think as an exec I'd be pretty miffed to find a ton of condiments in my inbox.

But I do think we could benefit from a little DIY guerilla marketing. Posting links to episodes on facebook, myspace, etc. Sharing the show with more people over the next week so that hopefully more viewers tune in for the last three episodes of the season, things like that.

CrazyKidBen | April 15, 22:30 CET

I don't understand all the Topher haters. Sure, he's kind of annoying, but the show would be sorely lacking in humor without him. And a lot of Joss's comic relief characters could get annoying sometimes, see, e.g., Lorne, Cordelia (on BtVS), Wesley (also on BtVS), and even Xander.

ETA, But I do love the thought of a Faith series. That would be totally five by five.

[ edited by Squishy on 2009-04-15 22:36 ]

Squishy | April 15, 22:32 CET

CrazyKidBen, launching any sort of campaign, aimed at execs or not, would most likely be fruitless. I hate to quash enthusiasm, but having seen similar fan efforts fail for Firefly and a Serenity sequel, I'm jaded. Or maybe the better term is realistic. A campaign to watch Dollhouse would only work if it pulled in a few Nielsen people, and that would be a long shot.

That said, simply trying to get people to watch would be harmless. But it's not really anything to hang hopes on, and these efforts tend to anger up the blood even more when they don't work and the show ends up cancelled anyway.

Or, y'know, you can ignore this cynical person and go for it. Nothing wrong with a little hope.

[ edited by Dizzy on 2009-04-15 22:48 ]

Dizzy | April 15, 22:45 CET

If anybody is wondering, I've had a site up for sharing the show for a few months. I've asked around for help, but other than the banners it got stalled.

The problem is this - when you start talking 'don't cancel this show!' to execs, you've instantly mentioned the C word. To be fair to FOX, they've kept the show on the air so far (how long did Drive last? Or Wonderfalls? Or The Inside?), and they've been reportedly in negotiations for a second season of the show with 20th Century Fox right now. Obviously, Dollhouse needs more viewers. Absolutely. But I think flying under the radar slightly with the show at the moment may actually be helping things.

gossi | April 15, 23:02 CET

Wow, I want two birthdays... how do I apply to get another one?

Are you a reigning monarch?

Don't you just declare it so?

*sigh* My hopes are low and I'm not expecting much. There's a teeny tiny part of me that dreams we'll get a renewal order and I can imagine being overjoyed and relieved. Whatever happens, I still want to keep some Whedon stories in my life and preferably live action in addition to the comics.

Emmie | April 15, 23:06 CET

gossi, I don't understand. How would mentioning the C word negatively affect the chances of renewal? Surely, Fox has to make a decision one way or another about cancellation, regardless of whether viewers remind them of the need to make that decision. In other words, they won't just forget about this show, and let it have another season by default, right?

Of course, I'm inclined to believe that a "save the show" campaign is a long shot, but do you really think it could affirmatively hurt the show's chances?

Squishy | April 15, 23:10 CET

I agree with Gossi's sense of things. There is a place for a fan-powered campaign to get people to watch the show. But, any campaign aimed at the execs themselves is bound to go nowhere. (There was a time when such campaigns worked because they were such a new idea and they got press coverage and got the name of the show out. But that time has passed, I'm afraid. Now they just get the "in another sign that X is doomed, the fans are whining" coverage.)

ETA: Gossi, I'd link to and use the stuff on your site if it were updated, though I recognize that you may not have the time or inclination to do so by now.

[ edited by Septimus on 2009-04-15 23:12 ]

Septimus | April 15, 23:10 CET

OMG I have a keyboard!!! Yes Internet Cafe!!! Woot!

Sorry, but the phone just doesn't cut it when I'm Whedonesque-ing here. *happy grinning sigh*

Yeah, zeitgeist, Dr. Horrible's freedom cast more of a painful shadow of networking than if he didn't have Dr. H- what he said. And I believe it. How hard is it to go back to work after having the freedom of *not* grinding that wheel? It makes my stomach do hurdles of pondering what tonight is going to hold.

BUT, even with all of that grief, and all of the massive picnic-attacks-by-bees that we've had over the YEAR, Dollhouse (in my shrine-worthy book) is damn good. Really damn good. Even "Stage Fright" (yeah, I said it) was one of the best episodes of television. Looking past the glamour & make-up, you have the strong parallels of hating the world you *volunteered* yourself for, the freedom song, the bashing of a diva (which we all secretly want to do time to time), the wonderful B plot of the friendship building between Sierra & Echo, Sierra totally geeking out, the head shake... I could go on, but now I only have 30 minutes left. For those interested in the awesomeness of this episode, see Pointy's reflections on it.

If Joss can do that with all of the pain he has been through with making this show, I say "wow".

korkster | April 15, 23:25 CET

He didn't fail at Fox, Fox failed at him.

Heh, I like that. I wish I'd thought to say, back in tenth grade, that I wasn't failing at school, school was failing at me.

I quite enjoyed the first few episodes, though Stage Fright was a low point for me. It's been an uneven season I think, with two really great episodes (Man on the Street and Spy in the House of Love, in the opposite order!), but last week I was staying with my brother in Toronto who has a TV and we watched some shows and I thought each time, "wow, I will never bother to watch that ever again." My standards were really high for Dollhouse, and I'd just finished watching The Wire and Mad Men, so some really great TV, but last week I realized that there's so much dull, generic crap on television (or, stuff that strikes me as dull and generic, anyway) and I can't pretend to know why a show like Dollhouse isn't finding an audience. However, as I'm always astonished to discover, not everybody in the world is me, or even anything like me, and Joss Whedon's shows have always attracted a small if passionate niche audience. While the promotion may not have been all it could have been (I have no idea, just people are complaining about that) it does seem like FOX is at the very least giving the show a fair shake, no? After last week's great ep, I'll be disappointed too if we don't get a second season, but I'll be curious and excited for the next project, and the one after that, and the one after that.

catherine | April 16, 00:26 CET

I just don't want to wait 5 years for the next project.

korkster | April 16, 00:40 CET

I heard that.

Squishy | April 16, 02:17 CET

We didn't wait five years for the next project last time (though it sometimes felt like that between issues of Astonishing X-Men ;) so there's no reason to assume we will this time either. Assuming Dollhouse doesn't come back of course.

I wish I'd thought to say, back in tenth grade, that I wasn't failing at school, school was failing at me.

I know right ? "No my large building for learning like friend, it is YOU who is made of fail ! ... Oh right, I don't get to decide that. Damn".

Bloody "city hall" ;).

Saje | April 16, 13:25 CET

Someone should make a Facebook quiz entitled "Which doll would you order?" That would be creepy and cool. (Or, should it be which "imprint" would you order, which would be more complicated and true to the show, but harder to put together.)

Heck, I might get to it this weekend if no-one else does.

Septimus | April 16, 14:25 CET

oops.

[ edited by almost cookies on 2009-04-16 15:36 ]

almost cookies | April 16, 15:34 CET

I posted this information on facebook to help people catch up during Dollhouse's off week.

Episode 1 "Ghost" Episode Recap Video, Full Episode Recap
Episode 2 "The Target" Full Episode Recap
Episode 3 "Stage Fright" Full Episode Recap
Episode 4 "Gray Hour" Episode Recap Video, Clip 1, Clip 2, Clip 4
Episode 5 "True Believer" Full Episode
Episode 6 "Man on the Street" Full Episode
Episode 7 "Echoes" Full Episode
Episode 8 "Needs" Full Episode
Episode 9 "A Spy in the House of Love" Full Episode
Episode 10 "Haunted" Trailer

almost cookies | April 16, 15:35 CET

April 15 2009