May 02 2009
(SPOILER)
Discuss the eleventh episode of Dollhouse.
The two-part US season finale kicks off tonight with 'Briar Rose'. And if you missed it, the episode is now available to watch for free on Fox On Demand and Hulu and can also be purchased at iTunes.
gossi | May 02, 01:09 CET
I also just read on Twitter that Dollhouse fans should go to the Ausiello Files after it airs cause there will be "big news".
hitnrun017 | May 02, 01:12 CET
NathanG | May 02, 01:13 CET
Valentyn | May 02, 01:32 CET
roxette | May 02, 01:33 CET
GVH | May 02, 01:35 CET
bloodyrockerswitch | May 02, 01:38 CET
Rhodey | May 02, 01:47 CET
witch_kat | May 02, 02:01 CET
project bitsy | May 02, 02:05 CET
ActualSize | May 02, 02:09 CET
ActualSize | May 02, 02:09 CET
ActualSize | May 02, 02:11 CET
ActualSize | May 02, 02:11 CET
Showers | May 02, 02:15 CET
josswhedonaddict | May 02, 02:16 CET
josswhedonaddict | May 02, 02:17 CET
project bitsy | May 02, 02:17 CET
Oh, what have I done?
gossi | May 02, 02:17 CET
Jana Banana | May 02, 02:19 CET
NYPinTA | May 02, 02:19 CET
ActualSize | May 02, 02:20 CET
Jana Banana | May 02, 02:21 CET
project bitsy | May 02, 02:22 CET
NYPinTA | May 02, 02:24 CET
And Enver totally rocked the Dominic character...he had Reed Diamond's mannerisms/delivery down perfectly.
JMaloney | May 02, 02:24 CET
"Now there's a GUN." Beautiful delivery. As much as I love him in this role, he deserves one the size of Ballard. At least.
Oh, also, hey everyone. Long time reader, short-\ time member, first time poster. *waves*
Jana Banana | May 02, 02:25 CET
NYPinTA | May 02, 02:26 CET
discordia | May 02, 02:27 CET
josswhedonaddict | May 02, 02:27 CET
Showers | May 02, 02:28 CET
"We have PHONES." Sounded just like Reed Diamond. Gorgeous.
Oh, man, someone stop me if I'm posting too much. I am so freaking excited.
Jana Banana | May 02, 02:28 CET
Anyone else thinking it's way too easy for Ballard to just follow November? And why didn't he think of that earlier? Has she checked back in at the Dollhouse since she told Ballard she's a doll?
And how does he think Kepler is going to be helpful and not a distracting liability?
Jana Banana | May 02, 02:30 CET
josswhedonaddict | May 02, 02:30 CET
ActualSize | May 02, 02:31 CET
josswhedonaddict | May 02, 02:32 CET
josswhedonaddict | May 02, 02:33 CET
NYPinTA | May 02, 02:33 CET
Jana Banana | May 02, 02:34 CET
madmolly | May 02, 02:35 CET
Just like in the beginning of Serenity. Except they had lasers or something they could turn on. Maybe the Dollhouse does too!
Wonder what it would been like to watch the show without knowing what I know about Alan's character....
Anonymous1 | May 02, 02:36 CET
"Are you kidding? The apples are monitored." Excellent.
Jana Banana | May 02, 02:37 CET
Jana Banana | May 02, 02:38 CET
Jana Banana | May 02, 02:39 CET
Josswhedonaddict, yeah, I get a little annoyed by Ballard's one doll mind.
NYPinTA | May 02, 02:40 CET
josswhedonaddict | May 02, 02:40 CET
josswhedonaddict | May 02, 02:42 CET
*hee*
ActualSize | May 02, 02:43 CET
NYPinTA | May 02, 02:44 CET
Jana Banana | May 02, 02:44 CET
existentialhere | May 02, 02:45 CET
josswhedonaddict | May 02, 02:45 CET
Jana Banana | May 02, 02:45 CET
Alan Tudyk totally needs his own show. Or he could join the cast of "Castle" as Castle's line-in brother or something.
C. A. Bridges | May 02, 02:46 CET
gossi | May 02, 02:46 CET
Jana Banana | May 02, 02:47 CET
mle | May 02, 02:47 CET
C. A. Bridges | May 02, 02:50 CET
josswhedonaddict | May 02, 02:50 CET
mouse | May 02, 02:50 CET
Revolver | May 02, 02:50 CET
ActualSize | May 02, 02:51 CET
project bitsy | May 02, 02:51 CET
YES!!! Crazy-with-the-knife Alpha rocks. Great reveal (of the worst kept secret in the 'verse). Would have liked to see a bigger reaction from Saunders, though...
Poor Victor! Wonder if his scars will match Saunders. He'd BETTER not die.
Jana Banana | May 02, 02:51 CET
mle | May 02, 02:51 CET
NYPinTA | May 02, 02:51 CET
tharpdevenport | May 02, 02:52 CET
project bitsy | May 02, 02:52 CET
thegingerpire | May 02, 02:53 CET
Ooh, I love Calculating!Adelle.
Jana Banana | May 02, 02:54 CET
I love the Adelle-isms.
ActualSize | May 02, 02:56 CET
[ edited by mle on 2009-05-02 02:57 ]
mle | May 02, 02:56 CET
Jana Banana | May 02, 02:56 CET
ActualSize | May 02, 02:58 CET
Jana Banana | May 02, 02:58 CET
NathanG | May 02, 02:58 CET
C. A. Bridges | May 02, 02:58 CET
Canonical | May 02, 02:59 CET
ActualSize | May 02, 02:59 CET
NYPinTA | May 02, 03:00 CET
pat32082 | May 02, 03:00 CET
I thought Reed Diamond was credited for this episode. Did I miss him?
Jana Banana | May 02, 03:01 CET
mouse | May 02, 03:01 CET
C. A. Bridges | May 02, 03:01 CET
miss-likes-to-fight | May 02, 03:01 CET
Invisible Green | May 02, 03:02 CET
The Operative | May 02, 03:02 CET
mle | May 02, 03:03 CET
josswhedonaddict | May 02, 03:04 CET
roxette | May 02, 03:04 CET
thegingerpire | May 02, 03:04 CET
Another Jane Esperson masterpiece script.
Another absolutely masterful performance by Alan Tudyk.
Spellbinding.
Can't wait for the season finale.
Just dread the season finale (means no more--for now, or maybe at all).
Absolutely excellent. (I think I said that)
History | May 02, 03:04 CET
JMaloney | May 02, 03:05 CET
But I do not like the promo for next week, which no matter how misleading it may end up being still gives away too much.
And yeah, it was way too easy getting in, and Paul Ballard may be the most stupid agent in the history of universe. Where he knows dolls exist, he never considers that he might actually be dealing with one.
Dana5140 | May 02, 03:08 CET
That was a really funny episode. Very high concentration of great lines. I was unspoiled for the Alpha reveal, so that was really awesome. Alan Tudyk was great the entire time, in both characters he played (and very appropriate on a meta-level that Alpha would end up being a familiar face).
I don't know if I like where the plot is going. I'll need at least some time to process, and quite possibly to see next week's episode to make up my mind.
Speaking of, the preview called it the season finale. Better than series finale, but it says they're not showing 13...
Revolver | May 02, 03:08 CET
Jes | May 02, 03:08 CET
josswhedonaddict | May 02, 03:09 CET
mouse | May 02, 03:10 CET
Jana Banana | May 02, 03:11 CET
Alan did a fantastic job. I laughed out loud several times during his stoner phase and was all creeped out by his Alpha persona.
Enver was FANTASTIC - yes he was perfect as Dominic but my favorite moment was when he was sitting up in his pod and Dr. Saunders asked him what happened and he innocently replied, "People were fighting on me." Just a wonderful, wonderful delivery.
The Briar Rose theme was nicely executed though it didn't "wow" me. I thought it was interesting that Topher was trying to use Echo to do something positive for someone.
I was very upset by Paul just looking at Novemember and saying "Can't get you. Sorry." and closing her back up then smiling with glee when he found Echo. That just felt wrong. :(
Victor getting cut was terribly upsetting. :( I truly feared for Claire. Amy Acker did a terrific job.
I was a little bothered by Mellie's begging Paul to stay/not break up with her. The first several episodes - I got a much stronger vibe from her when it came to relationshippy stuff.
The fight choreography on this show is really good.
Looking forward to next week. Oh what a tangled web Whedon weaves.
[ edited by CrystalSC on 2009-05-02 03:15 ]
CrystalSC | May 02, 03:11 CET
Caleb420 | May 02, 03:12 CET
Why does Tudyk get all the hot chicks?
I wish I hadn't been spoiled. I would like know whether I could have figured it all out for myself.
So attic=dead, but memories stored. Sorry Adele, but you do run a very bad place.
redeem147 | May 02, 03:12 CET
Aloha Joe | May 02, 03:15 CET
I love the fact that Paul is less and less the clear good guy. Very cool.
redeem147, that's not true. Dominic is still around (his body at least). Remember Adelle's awesome speech at the end of that episode?
SteppeMerc | May 02, 03:15 CET
BTW, why did you hide that under spoiler text? Should I be doing the same?
Dana, I agree with the "too easy getting in" thing. I mean, has there never been a client before that's been interested in where their doll came from and just followed the black van? Are there no security sensors and no one watching the monitors? I would hope the cameras were for prevention, not just record.
But I don't think him not considering Kepler was a doll necessarily made him stupid. 1) He sought out Kepler; Kepler wasn't sent to him like Mellie, and 2) He didn't know Lubov was Victor, so he didn't expect that level of integration into his life.
Jana Banana | May 02, 03:16 CET
Wow. Wash as Reaver. Nobody saw that coming. He will eat your face!
"Down...that hallway. Wait! No, that's right."
MirandaGhost | May 02, 03:17 CET
NYPinTA | May 02, 03:17 CET
I figured that Alpha had hacked into the system to put his image as the tech guy, then pretended to be a nerd. He was obviously using Ballard to sneak into the building. I prefer to be surprised about that sort of thing.
redeem147 | May 02, 03:17 CET
I thought Tahmoh and Alan played off each other perfectly. Just a joy to watch the scenes those two were in together.
Oh and, Topher being a good guy and wanting to help someone? Not something I saw coming.
Animal Mother | May 02, 03:18 CET
doubtful guest | May 02, 03:18 CET
Taaroko | May 02, 03:19 CET
I would fear to see him next to Marsters.
redeem147 | May 02, 03:20 CET
MirandaGhost | May 02, 03:20 CET
[ edited by mle on 2009-05-02 03:22 ]
mle | May 02, 03:22 CET
Poor, poor Victor. :(
And Claire is totally Whiskey.
Rhodey | May 02, 03:24 CET
doubtful guest | May 02, 03:25 CET
pancakegirl | May 02, 03:26 CET
JMaloney | May 02, 03:27 CET
best ep. yet. if anything good came from bsg ending, it's that jane espenson returned to the mutant enemy family.
also, as someone who religiously watched "homicide: life on the streets" from the first episode to the series finale seven years later(if you didn't know, reed diamond was a member of the cast of homicide for 4 seasons), the actor who plays victor had every mannerism down, shift in voice that reed diamond actually sounds like, and then on top of that, attenuated it to his character on dollhouse. truly a stunning piece of acting.
i really hope ratings are good and word of mouth prompts a strong turnout for next week. if they don't get a tuesday night slot behind fringe or whatever, so what? maybe this will just be a great show that's on friday nights. (ironically, all seven seasons of homicide aired on friday nights) one can hope :)
this episode was made of win and covered in awesome sauce.
kefka | May 02, 03:28 CET
Also, the kicking in of the vent was pretty sketchy. What could Alpha have done to make that part easier?
Jana Banana | May 02, 03:28 CET
Maybe this has come up already in a thread I haven't seen, but has anyone else noticed that Ballard frequently reuses the same fighting moves? Particularly, he's always doing that thing where he grabs someone about the head and then knees them repeatedly in the side. I've never noticed anything like that before in any other Whedon show, but Ballard used that move twice in Man on the Street, once between then and now, and then tonight on Boyd. I think it's cool, it makes him seem a little more real.
Revolver | May 02, 03:30 CET
doubtful guest | May 02, 03:31 CET
Then I (perhaps stupidly) swung my Alan Tudyk's IMDB page early in tonight's episode, and they'd ALREADY listed his character name as Alpha! What the frak?!? Seriously, shouldn't IMDB have a process for waiting until after the episode airs? I feel just as bad for any West Coasters who happen across it early.
All of that said: really good episode, one of the best to date, IMHO, though I did almost nod off a little bit during the "mission" with Echo and her sort-of younger self. What can I say? I'm an alpha male. (Except I don't slice up people's faces. Well, usually.)
[ edited by Rick Gershman VII on 2009-05-02 03:38 ]
Rick Gershman VII | May 02, 03:32 CET
I also forgot to mention that Enver did the most fantastic job playing Dominick! That was so good!
mouse | May 02, 03:32 CET
SteveP | May 02, 03:34 CET
according to a podcast he did with ronald d. moore and grace park for the bsg ep "unfinished business," tahmoh explained(he was using a similar fighting style as this show) that he's spent more than a decade studying muay thai boxing, the fighting style shown in the first ep and since then. so in addition to being an awesome athlete and actor, odds are (and this is just speculation) tahmoh does almost all his own stunts.
kefka | May 02, 03:37 CET
Back to the security thing: after Ballard discovered (and broke?) the tracking device, I can't imagine the Dollhouse not putting something else on him. Now, if Alpha had shown up as the tech guy in "Needs" and jammed it on Ballard's behalf to "help," I can definitely see that working out as a more plausible scenario for Ballard not being monitored.
Jana Banana | May 02, 03:37 CET
I almost wonder if the producers actually filmed Diamond in the chair, delivering the lines the way he would, and asked Enver to study it and emulate the performance. That's how good Enver was. Very impressive work.
Rick Gershman VII | May 02, 03:37 CET
ActualSize | May 02, 03:40 CET
doubtful guest | May 02, 03:41 CET
And, you know what strikes me as particularly creepy/interesting? I think Alpha is obsessed with Echo, not with Caroline.
SPOILER FROM PREVIEW:In the preview when he says that only one person stands between them being together, or something to that effect, I think the person he's referring to is Caroline..
Septimus | May 02, 03:41 CET
Daburcor | May 02, 03:42 CET
Revolver | May 02, 03:42 CET
JMaloney | May 02, 03:43 CET
josswhedonaddict | May 02, 03:44 CET
I would rather have had this play out over two episodes and gotten rid of the great-premise-terrible-placement "Haunted."
doubtful guest, Ivy could be a doll in that she wasn't around during "Echoes," but I don't know why they'd imprint a doll and then teach her to do something (Topher's job) rather than imprinting her with that knowledge. Also, she never would have been suspected as a spy, and Dominic wouldn't have bothered to frame her.
Other than Saunders, the only other person I think could actually be a doll is Loomis. Wouldn't THAT be a twist?
Jana Banana | May 02, 03:47 CET
Nebula1400 | May 02, 03:47 CET
to stay on topic, i believe that "unfinished business," which was somewhere in the middle of s3, and he and katee sackoff both use the fighting technique. (tho i think katee learned for the ep, whereas tahmoh has actually studied it).
i don't know if claire is a doll. part of me hopes not, but i think that's just the "i <3 fred" in me. the evidence of claire's presence at dominic's wiping and alpha knowing her seems to point in that direction.
kefka | May 02, 03:51 CET
Why on earth would Claire say something so obvious to Adelle, Topher and Boyd - who are all obviously smart enough to follow the conversation - unless it was a deliberate attempt to make us not think of Claire as a doll so they could reveal it later?
There's a lot of eyecandy for me in this ep. Alan is gorgeous and his biceps had me drooling. And I don't mind showing my shallow side and stating that there was a very nice hiney shot of Tahmoh in front of a grate in the airway. :D
I don't like how, not to say "dumb" but yeah, I kinda do, Paul seems to be. What did he think he was going to be able to do by himself, on suspension - just walking into the dollhouse. I giggled at the preview for next week when he said "Alpha got out. I will too." And Adelle rolls her eyes and replies, "Alpha's a genius."
[ edited by CrystalSC on 2009-05-02 03:54 ]
CrystalSC | May 02, 03:52 CET
SWOON! "Alpha!"
I leap from the couch and grab the front door and ask it to stop spinning.
Andrea 2s1 | May 02, 03:53 CET
I have to give props to Alan Tudyk.I was also spoiled for him being Alpha but it still didn't take away from his performance and the way he switched on a dime.Very menacing.And poor Victor.Also Alan and Amy's scens were also very creepy.
Can't wait until next week to see Alan and Eliza do there thing.The few scenes with them together tonight shows they have great chemistry to play off each other and the preview for next week just has me in major anticipation.
The return of Dominic via Victor I found actually very disturbing.
Loved the payoff of Ballard finally discovering the dollhouse and all the major players finally interacting.
The Boyd/Ballard showdown was intense especially since I think Boyde actually agrees with Ballard.The fight itself was kickass.
And also very interesting that Echo/Caroline is still imprinted on Boyd it seems.
[ edited by Buffyfantic on 2009-05-02 04:11 ]
Buffyfantic | May 02, 04:05 CET
In order for my theory to hold true, either Saunders said that, not understanding that Whisky was her doll name OR she might have a level of self-awareness (and clearly, self-preservation) and knows that Adelle/Boyd/Topher doesn't know that she's a doll? That second scenario doesn't make sense to me.
I'm thinking it's scenario one. Maybe she was a doll cut up in Alpha's first attack. They can't lend her out as a doll anymore, so they make her a doctor. A Spy in the House of Love established she never leaves the Dollhouse.
Remember Hearn's line about Victor not playing doctor unless he's imprinted with an MD? The shot is Saunders for the first half of that line.
I'm often wrong, but never in doubt. Can't wait to see how this plays out.
Jana Banana | May 02, 04:06 CET
mouse | May 02, 04:09 CET
luv4whedon | May 02, 04:11 CET
But beyond the Alpha storyline, the Boyd/Ballard fight was difficult to care about because I have no idea who I should be rooting for. I was leaning towards hoping Ballard fails, but, it's not exactly a conviction. So it is an odd show to watch. But I watch.
will.bueche | May 02, 04:12 CET
I actually don't think it has so much to do with the Handler Imprint because she flashed to what happened in The Target. That was when the real bond of trust was built between them imo. And of course, they're playing a fine line between the real trust and fabricated trust, but then trust is in someways predicated on an illusion, the perception of who we view a person. That's why the betrayal of trust is so shocking - who we thought a person to be turns out differently.
Really great episode. Yes, the Briar Rose metaphor was a bit heavyhanded but I enjoyed the ideas about the Princess rescuing herself but it being okay to need help. And I loved how many princes there were in this episode trying to rescue Echo from Boyd, to Ballard to finally Alpha. As Boyd and Ballard were fighting I kept thinking of the Prince fighting the Dragon in Sleeping Beauty, yet they're both the Dragon and the Prince in a way. Neither one plays the straight hero. And while they're not looking - the dark Prince steals Echo and restores her to who/what he wants her to be, his dark companion.
So the question still remains - why is Alpha so obsessed with Echo? Specifically Echo and not Caroline.
Agreed on all the fantastic performances this week - the two standouts being Alan and Enver. Incredible work. Gah, Alan was so thoroughly hilarios and entertaining to terrifying towards the end. Powerful switch and a fully realized performance.
Emmie | May 02, 04:16 CET
**(and, yes, I know she's done some creepy stuff, but that doesn't undercut what she might believe is the best options available to her, so all you boring "if you ever walked into the dollhouse for one second you are irredemably evil rapists end of story" creepoids go find some other puppy to torture!)
doubtful guest | May 02, 04:21 CET
gossi | May 02, 04:23 CET
It's interesting to see how many of us were spoiled for the big reveal. I'm happy for those of you who weren't; many of us who had heard it are also spoiler-adverse, but either had the bad luck to come across threads where people had blurted it out, or, at least in my case, saw enough very thinly-veiled "clever" references, along with the aftermath of rouge spoilers, to put two and two together. But, since Alan's character through most of the ep had me questioning whether that conclusion could be right, I'm pretty sure that I would not have seen that coming at all.
And in all, an excellent ep, and I really don't know where it's going from here.
LKW | May 02, 04:24 CET
That would be my guess.
Maybe she was a doll cut up in Alpha's first attack. They can't lend her out as a doll anymore, so they make her a doctor. A Spy in the House of Love established she never leaves the Dollhouse.
But wasn't Saunders scar-free in the first ep? I could swear there was an ep where we saw her become scarred.Just went back and looked at the screencaps. Nevermind. She had the scars in the first ep.[ edited by CrystalSC on 2009-05-02 04:28 ]
CrystalSC | May 02, 04:24 CET
gossi | May 02, 04:28 CET
CrystalSC | May 02, 04:29 CET
Ah, wait, crap. I think I know what you're talking about, CrystalSC. We haven't actually seen her unscarred, but I just remembered that Topher mentions that Saunders "looks like a jigsaw puzzle" in the Alpha flashback. That means she was Saunders before the incident OR the actual Dr. Saunders died in the event, Whisky was cut up, and Dr. Saunders was put into Whisky's body. We've seen with Haunted that people can scan themselves ahead of time to achieve "life after death." Perhaps that's what's been done here.
Still desperately clinging to my theory...
Jana Banana | May 02, 04:30 CET
Riker | May 02, 04:31 CET
CrystalSC | May 02, 04:33 CET
CellarDoor | May 02, 04:39 CET
what a beautiful sounding name!
(sorry, couldn't help myself!)
doubtful guest | May 02, 04:41 CET
Is it next week yet?
Jana Banana | May 02, 04:41 CET
Did ya notice how I pretended that my own supposition was an actual fact that I could build more suppostition on top of? I am so skilled! I can climb to the moon on a staircase made of turtles (um, really obscure physics joke behind that reference. sorry. sleeping now).
doubtful guest | May 02, 04:47 CET
Emmie | May 02, 04:47 CET
I think as the relationship strengthened between Mellie and Ballard, the imprints were probably more geared toward her remaining in his life. Or maybe that was the only driving force behind "Mellie" all along. When she first appeared in the hallway holding a freshly-baked pan of not-so-leftover lasagna, I thought she came across as needy-ish and desperate. I felt sad for her, knowing Paul only had eyes for Caroline for whatever reason. Then it wasn't until several episodes later that I started to see Mellie as her own person. Maybe it was watching November off Hearn.
CrazyKidBen | May 02, 04:50 CET
What does that say about me?
Maratanos | May 02, 04:55 CET
I think the latter is true for all of us. ;)
Emmie | May 02, 05:00 CET
Maybe he should. We don't know why he does what he does.
Maybe he's the lesser of two evils.
redeem147 | May 02, 05:02 CET
CellarDoor | May 02, 05:04 CET
When we see the flashback to Alpha's composite event in The Target, Topher says, "Doc Saunders looks like a jigsaw puzzle." This is before Boyd was hired to be Echo's new handler after Sanderson's death at Alpha's hand.
It isn't until the following flashback that we see Amy Acker as Dr. Saunders. Some time has passed, as Boyd is now present and being given a tour of the 'house. Amy sounds jaded and solemn, but that doesn't mean she is the "Doc Saunders" Topher was referring to. Amy could have been Whiskey, a doll left scarred by Alpha's attack but not killed.
With the real Saunders dead and mutilated, the staff of the 'house could've imprinted the scarred Whiskey--as suggested above--to act as the new doctor. It's likely that after Alpha's attack they were reeling and needed someone with all the medical expertise asap.
CrazyKidBen | May 02, 05:07 CET
Great episode overall but I had to pop in mainly to single out Enver's performance. Amazing. Amazing loads of amazing talent. I actually thought that Reed Diamond's voice had been dubbed over. It was perfection. I've been very inpressed with his acting talent throughout but this just blew my mind. Here's hoping the shocking 'Alpha-treatment' he received tonight doesn't decrease his engagements/screen time. (Wow, this show really needs to come back, I'm already acting like a second season is in the bag. Ah, self-delusion...)
onthedrift | May 02, 05:13 CET
iwearthecheese | May 02, 05:19 CET
mouse | May 02, 05:24 CET
Chris the Bloody | May 02, 05:25 CET
luv4whedon | May 02, 05:26 CET
luv4whedon | May 02, 05:35 CET
edit: okay, I guess they aren't going to... but his primary engagements are romantic encounters.
[ edited by iwearthecheese on 2009-05-02 06:00 ]
iwearthecheese | May 02, 05:51 CET
luv4whedon | May 02, 05:51 CET
God, everything about it was beautiful. Echo's mission with the emotionally abused little girl. The "buddy cop" stuff with Ballard and Incognito!Alpha. "I went to grade school with Jenna Elfman." The absolutely EPIC Boyd/Ballard fight; these things do not usually put me on the edge of my seat, because I rarely believe that someone may actually die or get harmed, but I was just about falling out of my bed during this nail-biter. And then when we realized that Alpha was ALPHA...holy SHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIT.
I have never been more proud of my spoiler-averse ways. I had considered Tudyk as Alpha, but I never really had a concrete thought about it. But then he went FULL-ON EVIL and cut up Victor's face, and I literally jumped up. Seriously, he was reminding me of the Joker, with the imprinted-with-someone Echo as his Harley Quinn.
Everything about this episode was perfect and right and wonderful and awesome and insane and I will cry if the show gets canceled.
Thank you, Joss, for the single best piece of television thus far in 2009 (perhaps rivaled only by BSG's "Sometimes a Great Notion").
UnpluggedCrazy | May 02, 05:56 CET
-DED- | May 02, 06:02 CET
hacksaway | May 02, 06:06 CET
And what a genius performance by Alan Tudyk! I'm guessing he has a lot of Topher in him... but of course a lot more in there too.
This is a brilliant show, I just cannot believe how good, and how complicated (and I'm really worried about Victor!).
embers | May 02, 06:06 CET
luv4whedon | May 02, 06:10 CET
I can't think.
Wow.
So good. And unexpected. And awesome.
Also, Tudyk is a fox.
lookitsjulia | May 02, 06:11 CET
Haunt | May 02, 06:17 CET
Mercenary | May 02, 06:29 CET
That was simply awesome TV.
kasadilla | May 02, 06:38 CET
If Saunders is Whiskey (and I believe that she is) is could also be referring to her. Technically, it could be any of them, but since I like her so much, I've been mentally preparing for something to happen to her since the show began. I don't think any Joss fan could blame me.
(I'm not sure what I wrote counts as a real spoiler, as I've seen it a couple other places, but I'm just trying to be extra careful.)
[ edited by mle on 2009-05-02 06:46 ]
mle | May 02, 06:41 CET
AlanD | May 02, 06:42 CET
She's one of my favourite characters in Fable.
Simon | May 02, 06:45 CET
lol
embers | May 02, 06:45 CET
Emmie | May 02, 06:47 CET
But this episode belongs to Jane Espenson. I love her writing, but the sheer density of quotable quotes, the layers of meaning, the subtle reveals as well as the HUGE REVEALS... damn, Jane, you knocked this baby out of the park. I was hanging on to every line. In fact, I re-wound stuff on the spot, just to hear it again. I almost never do that. Kudos.
I think it's now pretty obvious the concept has legs, and would be well served by subsequent seasons. Fingers crossed.
Tin Ear Tom | May 02, 06:49 CET
Alan, Enver, Amy... everyone was terrific! The show was a complete edge-of-your-seat, holy-shit-what-the-fuck moment roller coaster.
I ^6 everything everyone said before that remarked how awesome this was.
Now to comment on what hasn't been said (not much):
23 Flower Street. Seriously? That's the Dollhouse's address?? What's it with Whedon and evil florists?? :D
Briar Rose story-telling. Has anyone else noticed that each episode is told a completely different way? MotS with "documentaries", "Echoes" with twisty turvy drug induced story telling, "Needs" with a employees at work approach, "Spy" with the Dolls themselves used as plot devices to tell the story, & "Haunted" to be seen through the lens of another (Topher via security camera, Margaret through Echo's eyes). And now tonight, this fabulous episode wrapped in pretty pictures and a fairy tale book. Wonderful!
korkster | May 02, 06:59 CET
Right with you there, AlanD! Boyd & Ballard were the princes who tried and failed, and it was meant to be Alpha all along! The "bad" guy, who's seems to be the "right rescuer" for the current Echo state.
In regards to Caroline/Echo, this is something that I brought up weeks ago regarding which one we're more attached to. When it comes time to "choose", who would you want to see remain in the body? It's a tough decision, because either way, someone has to die. And don't they both deserve to live?? I think so! May Alpha & Echo have a marvelous vacation from the Dollhouse! :)
korkster | May 02, 07:04 CET
Before, I used to find Paul boring. Now I really,really dislike him.
He comes off incredibly creepy with his obsession to save *Caroline*. Not to bring down the Dollhouse, but to save her. He doesn't even care about the rest of the dolls. And I'm not sure he cares about what she wants either. It's like he's built a fantasy on his head and wants to see it through.
Alpha: I never thought I'd be terrified of Alan Tudyk. but I was. I'll have nightmares. I think I screamed on his reveal.
Whiskey: I really don't want Saunders to be a doll. I hope that she is a former doll like some said. but it makes a lot of sense for her to be a doll and it totally sinks my only ship in this show.
I wanted Echo to go alpha on Paul' ass.
Honestly, I think the show would be better without Paul. If it was about the inner workings of the Dollhouse and about Caroline trying to break out, about Echo evolving and all that. most of Paul's storylines seems a waste of time.
okelay | May 02, 07:06 CET
God how good was Enver? How is it even possible to imitate someone as well as that? That was just scary! And Alan did a fantastic job as well, Alpha certainly wasn’t a disappointment. He was as every bit creepy and insane as I imagined he would be. Also.. Wow! Eliza and Alan have a lot of chemistry and she did that sexy look she does, exactly like she did in ‘Enemies’ when Faith and “Angelus” pull away for the first time after kissing. It made me squee in a perverted kind of way!
The Ballard/Boyd fight was what I’d been waiting for all season long and it didn’t disappointment! Like everybody else has said, it was great to have these two princes fighting over who should be saving her. Though I just watched it again and couldn’t help but laugh at Ballard. When Echo knocks him over the banister and he just has that look on his face, it’s priceless. He’s trying to save the girl but she doesn’t want to be saved! Boyd seemed to get a kick out of it as well, “you heard the girl!” I’m starting to think that Ballard will try and save Echo even if she wants to be or not, it’s slowly becoming more about him and less about her… I also really enjoyed how Echo shows she still trusts Boyd but that it’s genuine trust, not the artificial kind.
The ending was just awesome, I love this show so much right now. Can’t wait for next weeks final. Lets just hope it's not " the final" if you know what I mean.
vampmogs | May 02, 07:12 CET
Writing was great too. Really. Liked it a lot. :)
I kind of hate Paul a little now. Didn't think I could. He's an ass totally consumed with a ridiculous hero fetish. I'm rooting for the guy with the knife all the way.
Thanks Jane. :)
IrrationaliTV | May 02, 07:20 CET
Ballard may not be the smartest agent ever, but he's not wrong, not even sorta wrong, about the Dollhouse. "No provision for consentual slavery" is right.
Great fight scene between Paul and Boyd, though.
Most of what everyone has said holds -- Enver and Alan were amazing. So was Miracle, by the way. She played Mellie's pain so convincingly that it was hard, even knowing better, to remember that she's not "real" in any meaningful sense, that all her reactions have been tailored specifically to Ballard's needs.
I wasn't entirely buying the turn at the end, especially after watching the preview.
I assume that they'll either force Ballard into Active status with the same unambivalent evil with which they did Priya, or he'll get sent off to the Attic.
KingofCretins | May 02, 07:39 CET
With a composite event, they both kind of live don't they? But if I had to choose between them, then Echo all the way. Not a tough choice really. Echo is evolving and surprising and intuitive, while I find Caroline to be kind of annoying.
As for this composite thing releasing the twisted sadistic maniacal plotting manipulating evil super-genius -- that ring any bells in the Whedonverse? I'm seeing a lot of Angelus in Alpha.
AlanD | May 02, 07:55 CET
Thought Eliza did a fabulous job with her characters tonight, all of them.
I wasn't spoiled for Alan as Alpha, though I'd contemplated it as a possibility before the reveal, so wasn't totally staggered or anything. Somehow I can't see him as a continuing character in the unlikely chance the show is renewed. He'll be finished off I think.
Have to say, I wasn't as impressed as everybody else. Jane's writing didn't work for me for some characters. I especially thought Alan's stoner character was overdone, as was Alpha actually - one step away from being a cartoon villain - I expected him to go mwa ha ha ha any second.
Ballard's lack of investigative smarts is not due to poor writing on ME's part. It's how they've portrayed him from the start. I'm sure he was chosen by a Dollhouse FBI mole to lead the investigation precisely for that reason. I think Lubov mentioned that it was a job given to him because he couldn't screw up too badly there, looking for a mythical Dollhouse. Or maybe it was Mark Sheppard's Tanaka character who said it. The Dollhouse didn't realize that his one personality trait that could hurt them was his bulldog tenacity. But, without Alpha's hints, he still wouldn't have gotten close in any case. It may be that that's why they were relying on Mellie alone, they just didn't exspect someone like him to figure out who she was.
Was Alpha aware of Ballard knowing about the eco-designer? What was the point of killing him otherwise? And was the bum who was killed at the dumpster the designer? I didn't get that part, or why Sierra thought that he wasn't really a homeless guy. Actually, I understand her reasoning, but does that mean the eco-engineer was pretending to be a bum? Confused.
Boyd recovered awful fast from being hit in the head with a rock.
[ edited by shambleau on 2009-05-02 08:56 ]
shambleau | May 02, 08:07 CET
Amen, TamaraC. I've actually hated him since last week's episode (and maybe a little before that). Tonight's episode was brilliant in pointing out why. I remember why I love Jane Espenson.
I can't really put together any coherent thoughts right now. But I thought that Enver did an amazing job as Dominic, I love Alpha/Echo...it's sooo wrong and yet so awesome, pretty much everything was amazing.
And with that I go to bed :)
ShanshuBugaboo | May 02, 08:07 CET
I disagree with KoC that Echo is incapable of deciding what’s best for her. She did exactly that when she asked to be imprinted to out Dominic as the traitor. I think she’s far more self-aware then people give her credit for. She knows about the imprinting process and twice now has volunteered to be imprinted. It’s her choice.
I agree with you AlanD about the Angelus resemblance. But even more so I think he resembles Twilight from Buffy season eight. He believes what he’s doing is right and justified but he does evil things to get there. Emmie said earlier that she noticed how fairytales were on the brain for Joss in both season 8 and Dollhouse and I agree. I’ve seen a number of things in both series that kind of show where Joss’ head is at right now.
vampmogs | May 02, 08:13 CET
Anonymous1 | May 02, 02:36 CET
Before I read any farther, I have to reply to this. In spite of my best efforts to avoid anything remotely spoilery, of all the spoilers, this had to be the one I accidentally stumbled on, at least a month ago.
I am seriously bummed that it happened. No fault to anyone here, this is the best site ever, for posting spoiler warnings. It was just a fluke, but has it ever reinforced my hatred for spoilers.
I got robbed of that slow dawning of "OMG, could this really be ... ?" It wont happen again, and I'll enjoy this amazing ep more the second time around, when I'm not waiting for the bomb to drop. I can't comprehend why anyone would want to be spoiled for something like this.
OK, end of rant - I've been holding on to that for far too long. ;)
Shey | May 02, 08:19 CET
Also, unless the chronological order of the episode were much different from what we saw, and Alpha could somehow hack Loomis' computer in real-time to change the image of the eco-engineer that Ballard pulled up, Alpha was definitely a few steps ahead of Paul - I posit that he killed the engineer, substituted in his own image (using mad computer skillz we saw elsewhere), and then smoothly stepped into his life.
Funnily enough, if I'm right then Alpha actually told the truth when he said those plants were there when he arrived...
Mercenary | May 02, 08:26 CET
project bitsy | May 02, 02:17 CET
Just IMO, but that seems really unnecessarily harsh and rude. I personally think Eliza has knocked it out of the ballpark every time. Not everyone here agrees with that, some more or less than others, although most who started out skeptical have been won over, from what I can gather.
But posters here are generally more with the constructive criticism, rather than the 'not so much as an IMO' mean spirited, subjective slams.
Not my place to call you out of line, but I found your means of expressing your opinion really offensive.
Shey | May 02, 08:35 CET
This is my take. Alpha has been leading Ballard on this investigation, giving him the external clues to the Dollhouse (photo, video...). Alpha knew this guy would take it and run with it. Perhaps Alpha has been following Ballard all this time and we never knew. Anyway, he finds out that Ballard is heading over to the eco-guy's place.
So Alpha hids in the eco-guy's dumpster, waits for him, and kills him. Then he tosses the eco-guy into a dumpster and takes him to Arizona. Then he mails the flash drive to Dominic to mislead the Dollhouse in his whereabouts.
Meanwhile, Alpha sets up home in the eco-guy's house. And who comes knocking on his door besides Ballard. Ballard knows the address, Alpha knows the inside... Alpha uses Ballard like a Trojan horse to get inside. Once Ballard is causing enough of a distraction, Alpha kicks his plans into high gear and rescues his girl.
[ edited by korkster on 2009-05-02 08:45 ]
korkster | May 02, 08:41 CET
steph424 | May 02, 03:04 CET
t-shirt, t-shirt!! but more explicit. ;)
Shey | May 02, 08:45 CET
And now back to the discussion.
Simon | May 02, 08:46 CET
Mercenary | May 02, 08:47 CET
It's so clear Saunders is a doll, that if you haven't known this for at least three episodes, you're either dumb or you have never watched TV before (ESPECIALLY Joss shows).
However he does it technique-style, it's always great to see Tamoh kicking ass on Friday nights.
Whomever Alpha "saved" via Echo is NOT Caroline. Which is obvious from the promos. I'm betting Alpha is your general Joss-style woman-hating socially-inept Big Bad.
However, this show is kick-ass.
unDeadhead | May 02, 09:09 CET
It's so clear Saunders is a doll, that if you haven't known this for at least three episodes, you're either dumb or you have never watched TV before (ESPECIALLY Joss shows).
I DIDN'T see it coming and I'm not dumb. There were pondering back around "Echoes" that left that door open, but we haven't seen Saunders perform in anyway to tip her hand. You should watch what you say that might be taken offensively.
korkster | May 02, 09:18 CET
IrrationaliTV | May 02, 09:19 CET
I almost thought that maybe he wasn't Alpha... and than BAM! In Victor's face!!! (poor Victor... =/)
The Whiskey thing... didn't caught that at all. But wow, makes sense!!! Wow!
And very curious about what imprint Alpha put on Echo... and that last scene of them was soooo Spike and Dru. Loved it.
Just amazing. Really. How can this show get canceled??
maxsummers | May 02, 09:25 CET
IrrationaliTV | May 02, 09:29 CET
best shot: 'There are no vertical risers on these stairs!' ( ankles to the waist very step down the staircase )
Saunders as Whiskey: Saunders was Dollhouse doc pre-AlphaSlice. Post-AlphaSlice,Saunders psyche is demolished by the psychological effect of the wounds, so Topher dumps her brain, tweaks her psyche a bit to get rid of the psychological damage, then reboots her with the new image. Doesn't QUITE fit the Alpha/Saunders conversation post-AlphaSliced-Victor, but it's the best I can come up with on an empty stomach.
No one but Alan could have pulled off this Alpha. And next week we get to see much more. I think Alpha is the kind of role any actor worth his salt would die to play.
Did anyone notice the 'art school' line about Alpha from Victor-Dominic?
I really enjoyed this ep. Loved Alpha's reaction to Topher's desktop PC security. Dug the heck out of Victor/Dominic. Happy about how Sierra always takes charge in her imprints. And Topher- slowly we've had reveals every week about his sensitive side. Maybe someday they'll be explained.
Kudos to all who worked on this. Excellent job!
DisChunk | May 02, 09:37 CET
[ edited by unDeadhead on 2009-05-02 09:45 ]
unDeadhead | May 02, 09:38 CET
MattK | May 02, 09:43 CET
By far my favorite ep thus far, I dont think it hit a wrong note, the child actress was great. The Victor/Dominic scene was BEYOND horrifying, tho I am pretty sure his voice was dubbed in. I thought I caught a lag once. But it did not stop my skin from crawling the entire time.
I didnt catch the whiskey thing so, thanks for filling me in on that. :p
The fight scene was fantastic, I appreciate how well it is choreographed so much as most shows that is what gets the short shrift sadly. :( (I do like me some quality violence)
I was freaking out for Dr. Fred, she knocked that out of the park.
I have to watch it again tonight, I have to see it knowing what I know now. :p
Thank you Joss. You never stop coming through.
Tarheelfan | May 02, 09:44 CET
John Darc | May 02, 10:02 CET
baxter | May 02, 10:17 CET
Every single actor nailed it to the wall. Eliza was beautiful and moving with the little girl in the beginning, and all Natural Born Killers, at the end.
One element of the genius that is Joss that doesn't get enough mention IMO, is his unerring ability to cast the right actor in the right roll (OK, Eliza was part of the package from the beginning, but he couldn't have chosen better if he'd had a blank slate for the character) ;)
I really don't get the Ballard hate. I relate to him in every way, and have the utmost compassion for his dilemma. I think his motives are more pure than those of any other character, although he's allowed himself to go a bit over the edge with his obsession with Caroline.
But I don't agree that Caroline is the only thing he cares about, re. bringing down the Dollhouse. I think it was made clear in the beginning that the Dollhouse itself is his obsession, and Caroline was his way in. So naturally, he's going to focus more on her. And his life has spun completely out of control, to the point that he virtually is no longer certain what's real. But he isn't going to let go of his conviction that his crusade is righteously justified .... "no provision for consensual slavery". The guy's an idealist who's had his head twisted in so many directions, it's a wonder he hasn't been driven insane. But he still holds on to that core truth, even as he's been subjected to a living hell, and the landscape becomes ever more convoluted.
Plus, Tahmon is playing the hell out of a really ambiguous character.
This show cannot get canceled. There has to be a way .... pass a law, a constitutional amendment, mind-wipe everyone at Fox and implant them with a "Joss Whedon is my master now" imprint.
Gonna go and watch it again, my Monday night re-watch buddy will be out of town next Monday, so no need to wait. ;) Yay team!, everyone involved is swimming in awesome.
ETA: Yeah, after reading more comments, the Alpha/Echo (as ???) vibe was very Spike and Dru - loved that.
[ edited by Shey on 2009-05-02 10:27 ]
Shey | May 02, 10:19 CET
edit: So they didn't have any rope. How did they get down the 10 stories? This is worse than the 8 feet of sewer in Echoes.
Where DID Saunders go during that episode, anyway? She hasn't got anywhere else to go.
[ edited by John Darc on 2009-05-02 10:28 ]
John Darc | May 02, 10:21 CET
And PLEASE keep the chat going! I've been watching it for hours! Good times.
snakebyte | May 02, 10:32 CET
korkster | May 02, 10:50 CET
jiggyfly | May 02, 11:13 CET
Thank you, TamaraC for that little pondering as I too have been 'hmmm'ing over that same line. :)
I was at first wondering what that whole side plot had to do with this episode - which is crazy because it had EVERYTHING to do with this episode.
I love the layers! I love this show!
Carmie | May 02, 11:16 CET
As for Saunders, I think the Alpha killed the original Doc Saunders and slashed Whiskey who then became Doc's replacement.
As for the comment further upthread about Mellie not being real... She's real as long as she's active. It's real pain and real tears. If we can equate saving Caroline with killing Echo, surely we can appreciate each persona's reality.
QingTing | May 02, 11:17 CET
Thank you, TamaraC for that little pondering as I too have been 'hmmm'ing over that same line. :)
I was at first wondering what that whole side plot had to do with this episode - which is crazy because it had EVERYTHING to do with this episode.
Yes! ... and yes again. This was ultimate multi-layered, sub-texted Joss/Jane, at the top of the game. It doesn't get any better than this.
Shey | May 02, 11:24 CET
Proof/official confirmation? I just watched the YouTub clip linked on the thread Simon put up, and I find it hard to believe that it wasn't dubbed.
Shey | May 02, 11:27 CET
It's probably not important, but I'm stuck on wondering how Topher knew of that little girl, and how he got a scan of her brain.
poisonyoulove | May 02, 11:27 CET
QingTing | May 02, 11:44 CET
During the Ballard/Boyd fight, who did you find yourself cheering for?
In other words, who do you consider to be the good guy?
chayes | May 02, 11:48 CET
UPC, you read my mind. All through Caprica I kept thinking how much I wished Dollhouse had started out in a similar way. But this episode was a total home run. I loved the acting, Jane's writing, everything about the episode (even the quirky imponderables, like how they got down the 10-story shaft). I, too, had been accidentally spoiled for Alpha's identity--and had just given up trying to be spoiler-averse since--but I was still surprised by "Alpha's" appearance, after the stoner characterization. Tudyk was fantastic. Enver was fantastic. I love Ballard's linear thinking that just doesn't allow him to see what he should be seeing (although I wish he hadn't been so cruel to Mellie). And, yes, he's not the sharpest knife in the drawer--which makes him a wonderful counterpoint to all the cops and CSI people who so brilliantly figure out everything in one hour.
Thanks, Joss and Jane. This is possibly my favorite of Jane's episodes, and I loved the evil twist at the end.
palehorse | May 02, 12:21 CET
Topher's a kid-like asshole. I kinda like him still.
Boyd knows what they're doing is wrong, but he's doing it anyway. But he's doing it with heart. I like him still.
Paul - in theory - is doing the right thing. But he's totally one minded - blinkered. Which makes him dangerous. I don't like him at all.
Adelle is a mystery. I still don't get why she's doing this. I actually quite respect how she handles situations, and if I worked for her I'd totally fancy her because of that.
gossi | May 02, 12:35 CET
I misread you there, vampmogs, and thought that I'd be spoilt for Buffy season 8. Alpha as Twilight? That'd be a big reveal!
jamesthegill | May 02, 12:51 CET
Possible kickers:
Paul is a doll
Saunders is a doll
Adelle is a doll
Echo is an imprint of Caroline, who is actually someone else
Someone will die: my betting is on Sierra
Dana5140 | May 02, 13:17 CET
gossi | May 02, 13:21 CET
As for next week's episode, my predictions:
Alpha and Caroline were doing a Ballard and investigating the Dollhouse before they got captured and turned into Dolls. Alpha has restored her old personality, and they're off to kick ass together: It'd be very Whedonesque for Caroline to be nowhere near as innocent as we had presumed.
It appears Saunders is Whisky (or Whiskey for like-minded Irish peeps). This makes sense since her facial scars from Alpha (presumably while a doll) would make it very difficult for her to be active. I wonder why they gave her Saunder's cynical/hurt personality though?
I think they'll use Ballard's non-saving of November against him next week. Him becoming a doll would be kind of dull (and would ruin the slow, steady character development they've worked so hard to establish). I always reckoned he might become a handler. I also think him and Boyd could have a very similar back-story, and that could convince him to do so.
Possible deaths:
Sierra, Victor, Saunders, or Topher's Asian sidekick.
My money's on November, however. She no longer really serves a purpose, and it could be used against Ballard to show him he's not as righteous as he thinks.
applie | May 02, 13:47 CET
Or maybe they are too self-involved for something so grandiose, and it will be more like Spike and Dru on a merry romp, with Ballard and Boyd teaming up to go after them.
Or, and here's a twist, Adelle suspected Alpha would try something like this, so she planted a trigger in Echo with which to take him down.
AlanD | May 02, 13:59 CET
I didn't catch that Saunders was a doll (though I think people are right that she's Whiskey), probably because I didn't want her to be. Heck, Adele could be a doll. Her friendship with the client in Haunted could be false memories. For me, every character who turns out to be a doll diminishes the impact of the characters to me.
I'm finding the plots improving (always love Jane) but the only character I really felt anything for last night was Alpha. And I don't know that says much for me. ;) Besides, I think Alpha is a doll with a screwed up programme and he's not really real either.
redeem147 | May 02, 14:01 CET
On thing I didn't understand: Sending the body to Tucson and letting them know about that was done to what end? To distract one little doll?
Saunders as Whiskey. Hmmm. I can't quite figure out why Alpha would need to spare two dolls during his escape. I had the feeling that Original!Whisky was the personality he imprinted Echo with. That would explain why, while he was killing all around, he couldn't go all the way on her face since it was the face of the body he loved. Still doesn't account for the fact that he left Echo totally harmless. If he wanted to leave one Active behind, unharmed and ready to start waking up through his mind-games early in the season, why didn't he just leave Whisky?
wiesengrund | May 02, 14:12 CET
[ edited by pat32082 on 2009-05-02 14:27 ]
pat32082 | May 02, 14:17 CET
If Saunders was a Doll then why would they have a complete, false, file on her just ready and waiting for Echo to read?
ETA that I just realised that they would have to change her file since Dr Saunders clearly would have access to those files and couldn't open a file to find out she herself was a doll. D'oh!
[ edited by zz9 on 2009-05-02 14:22 ]
zz9 | May 02, 14:20 CET
[ edited by redeem147 on 2009-05-02 14:29 ]
redeem147 | May 02, 14:28 CET
[ edited by QingTing on 2009-05-02 14:33 ]
QingTing | May 02, 14:32 CET
Everyone was amazing, especially Alan. I agree about the Angelus/Twilight resemblances, to me Alpha's mannerisms are like Angelus, but with the motivations of Twilight - awesome! Love how everyone's morality is pretty much twisted in this show - the good guys are doing bad stuff while still trying to be good, you can't really tell how bad the bad guys are ('cept maybe Alpha). Brilliant writing and acting. Can't wait for the finale. This show had better get a second season - there's soo much more to develop!
Shep | May 02, 14:39 CET
In most episodes, I really like Adelle. But in a few, including this one, I completely despise her. I think she's the most clearly evil of the lot. Ballard's motives are questionable, but he's right. Do we really think she's unaware of the Sierra/Priya situation, for example?
And to go back a ways, I don't think we've seen the whole story with Caroline. We see her breaking into Rossum, her boyfriend getting murdered, and then some time in the future, the conversation with Adelle. Where, IIRC, she says something about this going on for a couple years.
There are twists yet to be turned, and I don't expect everything to be revealed in the next episode (or two). But I feel like Adelle is the very human, often likable person who knowingly does horrific things. No less a villain than the boogey man Alpha.
nasarius | May 02, 14:47 CET
Whole thing with blades had me wondering, and then Echo saying she'd come back. I feel like they're related somehow.
I'm probably completely off-base.
edcsLover9 | May 02, 15:15 CET
http://www.hulu.com/watch/71001/dollhouse-briar-rose
edcsLover9 | May 02, 15:26 CET
Haunt | May 02, 15:29 CET
ETA: The other twist on the who-to-root-for thing: Paul is righteous, but not great on subtly. Forgetting the exact phrasing of what Boyd says to him mid-fight, but it was something similar to what was pointed out in "Needs" -- that just freeing the dolls by letting them go was kinda like releasing a bunch of domesticated chihuahuas into the Everglades and thinking you'd done a good thing (well, maybe if you hated chihuahuas and liked well-fed alligators it would be a good thing).
[ edited by doubtful guest on 2009-05-02 16:06 ]
doubtful guest | May 02, 15:32 CET
Saunders is a doll
Adelle is a doll
Echo is an imprint of Caroline, who is actually someone else
Someone will die: my betting is on Sierra.
I thought Echoes ruled out Adelle as a doll.
But I totally think that Caroline was an imprint. It looked that way from the previews. And it would get rid of the one glaring weakness so far: which is that Caroline's story was dull, bordering on cliche. And since all the imprint MoTW stories have been cliches I think that's a flag that that's what Caroline is.
November is more likely to die. Sierra is played by an actress who is really versatile and good. Am guessing that Paul will have something to do with her death (either fail to prevent it or inadvertently cause it).
Saunders is a doll. It'd be more fun if Paul was just a guy who has been deeply manipulated by Alpha than a doll.
Great episode.
Maggie | May 02, 15:35 CET
And yeah Saunders is totally Whiskey. Alpha slashes the faces of Dolls, to mark what's not real.
Sunfire | May 02, 15:35 CET
Although she is a programmed personality, November's body is still going through what Mellie goes through (the attack from Hearn, intimacy with Paul), her mind feeling the thrills, fears, and anguish that Mellie feels. It's not hard or even strange to sympathize with Mellie, despite her being a temporary creation. She doesn't know she's false, so everything that happens to her still officially happened (especially since they keep putting that personality into November). It sucks to see her going through the more difficult scenes with Paul (and Miracle is awesome, though her speech patterns/line deliveries are unique, so I can see how some viewers might not be completely on board with her sometimes). Until the Dollhouse stops using Mellie for good, she arguably matters as a being. And, IMO, I do think it's sorta sad that she'll cease to exist at the whim of Adelle and the push of a button by Topher, despite her being made up of other people's personalities and traits.
Yes, in the long run, the ideal scenario would be to have all the dolls restored to their original personalities (unless some of those personalities are evil, maybe ? In which case it might be arguably better for society if they're imprinted with nicer personalities ? But then you get into arguments about the death penalty and whatnot and Babylon 5 already did the new-personality-as-death-sentence episode, though it could seriously use some further explanation).
re: Alan Tudyk
I managed to stay away from the Alpha spoilers, but the fact that such a huge deal was made about who was playing him kinda tipped me off to the possibility that Tudyk's guest spot might be as him. Though I wasn't convinced much during the episode until he started getting really into turning off all the security features. I wish I hadn't known about the Tudyk guest spot well in advance, but I would've seen his name in the opening guest credits anyway. There's only so far they can go to hide the reveals, I suppose.
Didn't catch the "whiskey" from Victor/Dominic as being pointed at Claire Saunders (like another poster said, I thought we were done with the doll reveals, at least for this season...and despite Saunders and Ivy not being in "Echoes"). Good catch, all. It did seem like a suspicious word, but for whatever reason I totally didn't think of the military alphabet while watching (could be because I caught this at 3am this morning after finally having some time to myself around midnight to catch up on In Treatment, The Office, and Real Time with Bill Maher. Dollhouse was the dessert after the full course meal).
Paul's determination/dedication is admirable, though yes, as others have mentioned, it makes him dangerous because there's no telling how extreme he'll get to accomplish his goals (though I don't think he's gonna go too over-the-top, from what we've been shown of his character. He's not gonna start gunning people down left and right or anything. He just hates an abusive conspiracy, is all). I like him, but he's in way over his head. If he disappears, perhaps his friend Loomis at the FBI will take up his cause. She's the only one who'll notice/care about his absence, unless they decide to introduce family and friends or other colleagues.
Kris | May 02, 15:42 CET
Well, he also slashed Samuelson, who was presumably "real". And that park ranger.
wiesengrund | May 02, 15:46 CET
Aughhh... not sure what this emotion is. Feel slightly sick.
ThorpeWithoutShrimp | May 02, 15:51 CET
I have previously mentioned that I think it likely Claire is an ex-doll, rather than a current doll. One reason I like this theory is that it allows a huge amount of new narrative possibility (endnote 1) while requiring relatively little handwaving/phlebotinum-burning to make it plausible in the context of other known facts (endnote 2). For this reason, I prefer it to a lot of "she's a (current) doll, but a secret one that only Adelle (or maybe only upper management) knows is a doll," etc.
By the way, I am truly curious if there is a concept/name for this approach to narrative probability in teevee series -- I've read people like Joss or Jane discussing things like what makes a good series premise and how complicated it can be, and this seems like a micro version that I'm trying to articulate.
endnote 1: new/interesting narrative possibilities. We don't yet have a character who is an ex-doll, an interesting viewpoint. Also like that seems consistant with the depth of (tortured) introspection that seems ongoing with Saunders, that she seems to have a unique perspective on what it means to care for the dolls, and that her motives are potentially so tortured even she isn't sure which "side" she needs to be on in any given crisis. Also, if she is an ex-doll, maybe she was active when the tech wasn't quite as developed -- perhaps she predates Topher and any clever programming tweaks he brought to the process. Or perhaps she predates simple things like the right formula of drugs in the sleep pods and being a sleeping doll used to be more tortured/nightmare-filled, giving her a reason to want to find a way to remove trauma from the doll's daily life (there were doctors in the 18th century who joined slave ships not because they approved of slavery but because they felt that, while they lacked the power to end it, they could try to reduce needless suffering/death of the captives in the meantime.)
endnote 2: phlebotinum economy. being an ex-doll is consistent with things many of us are hypothesizing are doll-specific, like being targeted for scarification by Alpha, or whether the drugs in "Echoes" might have affected her (hence her absence from that plot), yet doesn't require wave after wave of complexity about how her records are stored/hidden or whether we can take her tortured persona as "real." Much as I love the twistieness of some of the theories like "Alpha killed the real Saunders, but they brought her back and implanted her old mind in her," they seem unnecessarily complex to get a bang for our buck from the character. If she was an ex-doll, she need only to have been active either at another dollhouse, or far enough in the past that relatively few people currently at the L.A. site (Adelle, Dominick, perhaps a few others) would know her history, hence her desire to cover up the "Whiskey" slip.
[ edited by doubtful guest on 2009-05-02 15:59 ]
doubtful guest | May 02, 15:58 CET
Well, he also slashed Samuelson, who was presumably "real". And that park ranger.
The difference being he killed both the park ranger and Samuelson, but only scarred the faces of Victor and Saunders/Whiskey.
Animal Mother | May 02, 15:58 CET
As to who to cheer for during the fight scene. I don't think I really wanted either of them to win. It was mainly a lot of cringing and watching between the fingers of the hands held over my face. I like Boyd and Paul a lot. Both of these men are fighting for what they view to be in the best interest of their obsession. The fight was painful to watch.
Alpha is spooky in the crazy Dru way. Comes off simple and innocent and then goes full on psycho before our eyes.
cheryl | May 02, 15:59 CET
With regard to "Do we really think she's unaware of the Sierra/Priya situation"
I took it as Nolan framed Priya in such way that she was in position where the Dollhouse organization offered her a "deal."
We've been shown two people in trouble pressured to serve as dolls, and an arrest record for a third. Nolan could've setup Priya for some crime/trouble that would bring her to the attention of the DH org.
Of course the DH org. could be evil and willing to just take Priya to please a client, but doing so would remove a shade or two of gray. With DH, my bets go on gray and not B&W. :)
Loose Deckplate | May 02, 15:59 CET
Did anyone else notice in the very beginning how the pre-corpse Kepler dismissively noted the light bulb packaging in the dumpster????
falina | May 02, 16:00 CET
But, question: how did Alpha manage the timing? How did he know to plant the body at the exact time that Ballard stumbled on the designer? I'm sure he led Ballard to the designer somehow, but on the same day that Ballard found the building? Was there time to kill Kepler and get the body to Tucson before Ballard showed up at Kepler's door?
Maybe the super-high-tech bugging device Ballard found wasn't from the Dollhouse, but was Alpha's?
Personally I got the impression that Adele let Ballard in, or at least was aware of Ballard's presence. It also seemed really odd to me that Ballard said they'd be on camera as soon as they stepped out... and then he stepped out. How would he have known where the cameras would start, or that there weren't cameras in the vents? And how did he know how a doll would react to his instructions? Or that the guy he stopped was a doll in the first place? Maybe it was a very laid back security guy, or a janitor, or the owner in his pajamas.
Also thought the fight scene went on a little too long, with a few too many times back up the stairs. But Alpha was right; gotta watch those risers.
Otherwise, incredible episode, incredible script, and best acting yet from everyone involved.
C. A. Bridges | May 02, 16:01 CET
Loose Deckplate | May 02, 16:12 CET
Richard or his goon killed the ranger. Alpha killed the goon-fake-ranger, and good point, with the slashing. At this point I'm starting to think the handlers and support staff and whatnot may also be Dolls. Alpha seemed to be ensuring the security staff would keep sleeping, in this past episode. "Security team... sawing wood." And now there's Whiskey. I wondered, when she didn't recall leaving the Dollhouse any time recently.
The difference being he killed both the park ranger and Samuelson, but only scarred the faces of Victor and Saunders/Whiskey.
No, he killed a bunch of Dolls in the shower.
[ edited by Sunfire on 2009-05-02 16:21 ]
Sunfire | May 02, 16:17 CET
doubtful guest | May 02, 16:18 CET
falina observed:
"Did anyone else notice in the very beginning how the pre-corpse Kepler dismissively noted the light bulb packaging in the dumpster????"
Ah, I didn't see that. Nice touch and specifically put there for re-watches, which is rare and always nice (also a barely-there, early clue for the dude who Ballard finds being suspicious). Heh, I guess Real-Kepler was dismissive because the light bulbs weren't compact flourescent ?
Edited to add: I could be remembering wrong. Maybe it wasn't at all implied or clearly stated that Alpha killed every doll in the LA Dollhouse at that time except for Echo. Maybe we just saw many bodies in the shower and I assumed it meant Alpha killed everyone except Echo.
Question: Was it actually Alan Tudyk's naked back (and apparently dyed hair) in the last scene of the premiere, "Ghost", or another actor standing in for that character ? Unless Alpha is imprinted on more than one dude.
[ edited by Kris on 2009-05-02 16:25 ]
Kris | May 02, 16:22 CET
C. A. Bridges | May 02, 16:23 CET
C. A. Bridges | May 02, 16:25 CET
This was a win all the way around in our house. =)
Charen grendillo fai. Jane, Joss, Alan, everyone. Amazing work.
/fangirl
Andrea 2s1 | May 02, 16:25 CET
Watching it again I'm more sure Alpha has some Topher in him.
Sunfire | May 02, 16:27 CET
Kris | May 02, 16:30 CET
[ edited by April November on 2009-05-02 16:40 ]
WhoIsOmega? | May 02, 16:36 CET
C. A. Bridges | May 02, 16:39 CET
And I'm still not convinced that Saunders is a doll. She's the one who was so quick to deflect Victor/Dominic's "Whiskey"; I can't remember right now if there was anyone else present who didn't get silly during "Echoes". Time to re-watch this completely AWESOME episode.
ETA: If Saunders is an ex-doll, that would also explain her deflection of "Whiskey". Maybe she doesn't want to be reminded or she doesn't want anyone who didn't know already to be aware of her past.
[ edited by ActualSize on 2009-05-02 17:12 ]
ActualSize | May 02, 16:52 CET
Why would Alpha need Paul to help break into the Dollhouse? Nothing we saw couldn't have been done by Alpha alone. Did he want Paul as a diversion once in? Surely that would, or should have raised the alarm and caused a lockdown once he was discovered. Alpha would have been far better off breaking in alone, dressed as an active, with no one knowing anything until it was too late.
And secondly, if Alpha's only goal was rescuing Echo, why do it when she's in the Dollhouse? He mindwiped her while she was on an earlier mission, why not just do that and then grab her then, with only one handler at most to deal with? He clearly has access to the imprinting technology. Why wait until she's back in the fortress before you try and rescue her?
Did he only need her memory so he could put it back in her body? If so then surely he could, from what we've seen of how easy it was to break in, get in, steal her personality hard drive and escape without anyone ever knowing.
zz9 | May 02, 16:56 CET
C. A. Bridges | May 02, 16:23 CET
I think it is more likely that Alpha was one of Topher's 'friend for his birthday' imprints once and retained all the knowledge because Alpha has pretty much retained EVERYTHING. It was interesting that when Alpha moved into the pot lab he seemed to chill out (not a surprising weed side effect) but still retained a lot of Topher (Topher did say he had an addictive personality!).
embers | May 02, 17:02 CET
I think Alpha did need Paul as a diversion. Too many people in the Dollhouse would recognize his face, which he conveniently turned away from Topher and the random Doll. Also, the Dollhouse staff knows Ballard is sniffing around, knows he's been suspended and is working on his own, and wouldn't expect a partner in crime. Alpha may have figured they would focus on Ballard while he faded into the background and achieved his own objective. Which does appear to be getting one or more hard drives so he can imprint Echo and others.
ActualSize | May 02, 17:08 CET
ActualSize | May 02, 17:09 CET
gossi | May 02, 17:12 CET
falina | May 02, 17:36 CET
And is it bad that I found him so very, very pretty?
Originally, I adored Paul, but lately, he's just been creeping me out. And he does seem to be of a one-track mind, to put it lightly. What bugged me, though, was when, upon seeing November in the pod, he simply dismissed her with "They flip a switch- you'd kill me without even knowing it", before rushing off to Echo. Coincidentally, with a simple imprint, she could be capable of the exact same thing, and yet, he doesn't seem to extend this logic to include Echo.
But, wow, was everyone brilliant. Enver's acting- I can't rave enough about it. He was Dominique.
The most amazing episode of my life, basically. Only problem is, if Dollhouse doesn't get a second season now, my life loses all meaning and I'll be forced to lock myself in a small room with just a tv and the Dollhouse DVD.
Also, carrots. Brilliant.
shinyEcho | May 02, 17:41 CET
Sunfire | May 02, 17:46 CET
doubtful guest | May 02, 17:56 CET
ActualSize | May 02, 18:04 CET
But it shouldn't have.
Boyd shouldn't have got close enough to Ballard to be disarmed, he should have raised the alarm and had the entire place locked down, Saunders should have raised the alarm the instant she saw Victor had been attacked (not just wandered back to her office without even wondering who was fighting), someone should have seen the ten minute fight in the middle of a CCTV covered Dollhouse, Adelle should have called a full lockdown and search as soon as she realised Ballard had broken in (not just assume he came alone) and she should very defiantly called security and a lockdown when she saw Alpha start to imprint Echo.
All these things happened to let Alpha succeed, but he would have had no way of predicting or assuming it would happen this way. A genius does not "plan" for the head of security to make a rookie mistake or for Saunders to not bother to raise the alarm.
zz9 | May 02, 18:27 CET
I was so ickily unsettled by the Dominic scene, and it was interesting to watch Topher and Dr. Saunders clearly struggling with it, while Boyd seemed just fine. I instinctively like him, as I'm supposed to, but he's a tricky character. Totally agree with everyone else who was impressed by Enver. He just blows me away every week. What a talent. Also, how ick that Adelle chose Victor of all the dolls to embody Dominic, with whom she clearly had had a close (of some kind) relationship.
The Boyd / Ballard fight scene and who do we root for was one of the episode highlights, I thought. I found myself rooting for Boyd pretty completely, and it's fascinating to wonder why. But what gossi said is definitely a part of it:
Paul - in theory - is doing the right thing. But he's totally one minded - blinkered. Which makes him dangerous. I don't like him at all.
MattK yes the closing shot totally echoed (!) Spike and Dru for me.
I'm *really* excited now to see how this wraps up, and so sad that the odds of a second season are looking dire.
catherine | May 02, 18:38 CET
We were meant to be totally creeped out well before the Alpha reveal.
And awesome the reveal was! I spoiled myself on the Alpha casting sometime during the first several episodes. I was hungering for a Joss show and wasn't quite getting that fix during episodes 1-4. The spoilage kept me coming back with hope, so no biggie in the long run. Because I was still freaked the hell out by Alpha's reveal, omg! I never knew Wash could be so creepy, yikes!
I am loving Alpha.
It's official.
DH got a Big Bad.
ETA: And ooooh, I forgot Ballard. Several weeks ago I told a friend not crazy about him, C'mon, it's Helo. He can do whatever he wants, he's Helo, I'm sold! :) After last week's episode, I might adjust my tune a bit. I think we're not meant to like Ballard very much, at least for awhile. The DH is taking the darkness in his life to new...er dark places. I mean, so much for saving Lost Girl Caroline. Bigger fish to fry now.
I totally hope Paul begins working in the Dollhouse.
[ edited by April November on 2009-05-02 18:55 ]
WhoIsOmega? | May 02, 18:45 CET
Sunfire | May 02, 18:46 CET
The Dolls were asleep and made more soundly so by Alpha's manipulation of the oxygen and CO2 in the pods.
Adelle would have been counting on Topher to notice computer security breaches, but there actually wasn't one -- Alpha had the passwords. And Topher was unconscious.
Everything happened very quickly in the end, and it was convenient that Alpha was able imprint Echo and get out so quickly, but Adelle and Boyd were busily interrogating Ballard, thinking they had neutralized the threat.
I may be giving the writers too much credit, but it worked for me.
ActualSize | May 02, 18:54 CET
C. A. Bridges | May 02, 19:00 CET
Even going back to Paul's comment to Loomis "I got shot... right here!" (ala stabbed, with Mal), I've seen a few parallels, unintentionally or not. Mal enlists with the Independents to gain access to fighting for a noble cause, only to have his superiors leave him completely stranded (sounds like Paul getting shafted by the FBI even as he was calling for more support from them). Mal is deeply traumatized by Serenity Valley, losing his belief in, well, anything. In "Briar Rose" Paul asks helplessly to no one in particular "Is my entire life a lie?!" (showing he no longer trusts in anything, really. Somehow, Mal and Paul both manage to come out on top in spite of Mal being "The easiest man I ever marked" on some occasions, and Adelle saying to Paul, "Yes, Alpha made it out, but HE was clever..." (paraphrasing).
Edit: Another layer I thought of was the parallel between Paul/Mellie (before he knew she was November) and Mal/Nandi. Mellie was all, "I'm not her..." but Paul used her anyway (even *before* he knew she was a doll!). Also, both men can't seem to help wanting to protect a certain woman who is both gorgeous, out of reach, and whose occupation is entirely based on lies, selling of human flesh, and people-pleasing.
I'm not saying Paul *should* be interpreted this way, and I'm *certainly* not saying it's an intentional tribute, but it helps me not hate him, since Mal probably went through this process, albeit with different specifics, as well. And I don't hate Mal in the phase of his life that we got to know him (even though he IS a bad guy on occasion).
Redeem147 suggested Ballard had only two choices: work for the Dollhouse or become a doll. If Paul continues to have another point or two of comparison with Mal, he might escape his own "Serenity Valley" defeat against ALL expectations/odds, and escape to The Black, disillusioned, downtrodden, despairing, but moving forward one day at a time. Paul'd still fight against injustice when it crossed his path, and maybe actually have a moment when he broadcasts the Signal, and reveals the truth about the Dollhouse to a point at which it can't be denied, but Paul might not exactly go rushing for Dollhouse (i.e. Alliance) territory as his first preference. Guess we'll have to wait and see! :D
Hehe, I love a show that makes me think. :)
[ edited by CellarDoor on 2009-05-02 19:25 ]
CellarDoor | May 02, 19:03 CET
ActualSize | May 02, 19:05 CET
Sunfire | May 02, 19:11 CET
However, I love Mal to pieces and I really don't like Paul much (I think he's more or less on the right side but I am not impressed with his methods), so make of that what you will.
Rachelkachel | May 02, 19:11 CET
I just found every twist and turn to be made of awesome in this episode. I really do think I love Dollhouse more than Firefly now, which is going to make it very painful for me.... *sob*
Sunflre, I don't think Alpha would have needed to be bullied by Paul if he hadn't gotten so stoned (which is IMO Topher's personality coming out in him). I think we'd have seen a different scenerio (and more rope) if Alpha had been straight, although ... wait... he'd still have been crazy/schizophrenic!
[ edited by embers on 2009-05-02 19:21 ]
[ edited by embers on 2009-05-02 19:22 ]
embers | May 02, 19:18 CET
CellarDoor | May 02, 19:18 CET
Nope, won't even type it.
Don't know if Alpha thought of this (although he is a genius :) ), but wouldn't even Ballard have been suspicious if he'd just agreed immediately to help? Maybe not; Ballard is so fixated on the mission that he doesn't seem to notice much else.
ActualSize | May 02, 19:36 CET
Mercenary | May 02, 19:40 CET
doubtful guest | May 02, 19:47 CET
My understanding of the opening that it was a dumpster diver going through the garbage who found the body that Alpha had dumped there (having killed him in LA and somehow transported him to Tuscon). Alpha made sure they knew that something was happening in Tuscon and that he was most likely there by sending the flash drive. My reading of that was that he knew Dominic was in the attic but also knew they could access the information. (Maybe I'm giving Alpha too much credit but he seems to know what's going on there and appears to have slipped in and out at least once that we know of - if he's the one who changed Echo's imprint (and Mellie's?) to give Paul information.)
The interesting tidbit to me was when Dominic said that Alpha liked to use the Greek version of his name while in art school, or something to that effect. (I must rewatch today - and again and again.) I forsee rewatching Dollhouse at least as many times as I do Buffy, because every time I watch an episode, I pick up something new, and there are so many things to pick up on!
Alpha obviously has some reason he wants Paul to find the Dollhouse, since he kept sending him clues. I think at this point he was using him mostly as a diversion. I agree with ActualSize's analysis of the security situation. I think Adelle was aware of Ballard being in the Dollhouse as soon as he stepped out in front of the cameras, but she/they wanted him alive and knew he was obsessed with Caroline so of course that would be where he was going. They just had to stop him from taking her.
I think Alpha needs the chair to do whatever imprinting he's doing. Yes, he wiped Echo remotely, but he would have had to program that reaction into the imprint beforehand.
We definitely need more seasons of this show. Joss at his best!
samatwitch | May 02, 19:52 CET
The worse Paul gets the more I love him. Thanks, Joss and Tim! I expect to be taken to some very dark places and will be let down if I'm not.
WhoIsOmega? | May 02, 20:05 CET
Alpha was hard-core!! The cutting Victor scene was a little meh, but when B and B were fighting on him and when he told Saunders, he could not have been cuter!!
I'm pretty okay with Alpha using Ballard for entry and he probably told him about the camera situation on the way so that wasn't an issue...
So where do they go from here?
BlueSkies | May 02, 20:16 CET
Mercenary | May 02, 20:17 CET
I commented after the Echo/Ballard fight that I was looking forward to the Boyd/Ballard fight. Whoa baby! I like how these two characters recognize something honorable in the other, while still trying to beat the bejabbers out of each other.
One of my favorite moments was when "Kepler" was drinking coffee in his apartment. My first thought was to wonder what kind of brew a paranoid ecologist would use. Tudyk spitting it out, without any comment, got me laughing. (And just now I realized, another clue to his identity!)
For Dollhouse security, I'm going to vote with ActualSize and against zz9/Sunfire. Boyd/Adelle were contemptuous of Ballard's invasion, but were completely oblivious to Kepler/Alpha. So I get the impression that security would have caught *any* single intruder, but Alpha could fool/thwart the procedures by having "blundering" Ballard in front. It might be that only with Ballard would Boyd & Adelle take their time to capture him quietly, instead of instant alarms/lockdown. (Topher mentioned it was quiet except for Echo coming back, which explains the Handlers not being around.) Or it could be a terrible plan that Alpha's does to get ego-stroking, to be fooling all these people.
Mercenary: When Ballard flashed the badge, he deliberately had his fingers covering up at least half of it, including picture and name. :-)
OneTeV | May 02, 20:19 CET
ETA: I wonder if Ballard swiped Loomis' badge. Or ordered one off the internet.
[ edited by ActualSize on 2009-05-02 20:23 ]
ActualSize | May 02, 20:21 CET
Completely. He was so clearly Topher to me that I knew something was up, although I did not have it sussed out until it was over that it was just Alpha was basing his ‘character’ on the only supergeek he knew well.
KS | May 02, 20:21 CET
BlueSkies | May 02, 20:23 CET
I've always liked Ballard; when he's on screen, he becomes the main character to me (credit to Tahmoh for that). I like Boyd too (especially now that we see how he's trying to make the best of a bad situation for Echo) but I was rooting for Ballard because he had the higher goal of getting her out of the Dollhouse. (Maybe not a highly realistic goal, but a noble one.)
Revolver | May 02, 21:02 CET
samatwitch | May 02, 21:22 CET
We just know that "Kepler" said he was.
(I'm actually unclear on how we're supposed to interpret Alpha-as-Kepler. Is he pretending to be Kepler or is he actually enacting an imprint (but in some cool Alpha/composite way that allows him to switch)? Was he, for that matter, really stoned and nuts or just pretending?)
Septimus | May 02, 21:29 CET
Mercenary
Also telling the truth when he answered Paul's question "Are you Stephen Kepler?" with "There are so many aspects to that question" or something like that.
I'm also thinking now that Alpha was the agent inside who sent Ballard the messages through Echo and November. He could remote deprogram Echo, maybe he could somehow remote program those parts, giving Ballard a further shove toward actually finding the Dollhouse.
barboo | May 02, 21:35 CET
doubtful guest | May 02, 21:36 CET
Septimus | May 02, 21:39 CET
jkalderash | May 02, 21:56 CET
doubtful guest | May 02, 22:02 CET
As far as I can see, the only way that the whole "purpose" thing can remain relevant is if:
A) Alpha actually has some grander design which involves discovering the wider purpose of the dollhouse or those who are behind it, then fighting them on that level.
B) There is another insider with (potentially) benevolent motives who is legitimately trying to discover the purpose of the dollhouse. It is also possible that this "other insider" could be Dominic, but I don't really see that as being right.
I would be a little disappointed if it was all just misdirection. The exploration of the dollhouse's purpose seems to me to be one of the most interesting avenues for further development if the show gets renewed (fingers crossed).
The Earl Of Slander | May 02, 22:05 CET
We just know that "Kepler" said he was.
I'm thinking he was at least seriously anti-social. He's out skulking around dumpsters alone at night, and his social life is sufficiently limited that no family or friends noticed that he had disappeared and a strange guy was living in his apartment. And it would be a decent reason for the Dollhouse to leave him alone even though he has potentially explosive information.
ActualSize | May 02, 22:05 CET
jkalderash | May 02, 22:09 CET
doublemeat | May 02, 22:19 CET
doublemeat | May 02, 22:33 CET
I think it's easily as possible Topher is an imprint of Alpha. If Alpha (the genius) was the first doll, why couldn't Topher be an experiment that came in handy when Alpha went batshit???
Oh, and Paul threatened to call the DEA about the medicinal carrots, not the DA.
falina | May 02, 22:49 CET
Simon | May 02, 23:02 CET
Second, I find it oddly convenient that Ballard's work brings him to Alpha right at the time Alpha needs to make his move to rescue Echo/Caroline. It was simply his sleuthing that led him Kepler (a bad choice of name, since Kepler was the character played by Liev Schreiber on CSI 2 seasons ago). And how easily Kepler hung back and led Ballard in, a man who is a trained agent, working at finding a place where he knows that anyone can be an imprint/agent.
And like the smoke creature on Lost, I don't suppose we will ever find out who programmed Mellie and Echo to get information to Ballard.
AS to a possible death next ep. It is obvious that the logical death would be November; she lost purpose with the break-up with Ballard, she is in the DH because of the death of her child, and she has nowhere to go in the arc- though that can change. I cannot see it being Victor, not after that slashing. Echo would be bold, but it's ED's show. Sierra is a sad story, there against her will, and as always in a Joss show, it is the lovable innocent who gets killed. Therefore, Sierra.
[ edited by Dana5140 on 2009-05-02 23:21 ]
Dana5140 | May 02, 23:13 CET
[ edited by Dana5140 on 2009-05-02 23:21 ]
Dana5140 | May 02, 23:21 CET
Dana5140, I don't think it was an imprint; I think it was a brain scan. Now, how Topher got hold of something that should be a private medical record, I couldn't say. We don't know how he found out about the girl; maybe there will be some kind of follow-up.
I find it oddly convenient that Ballard's work brings him to Alpha right at the time Alpha needs to make his move to rescue Echo/Caroline...
I think Alpha orchestrated this, just as he left a dead body with Alpha-signature wounds in Tucson to distract the LA Dollhouse. And I really don't know why the writers of Dollhouse should be concerned about character names on other shows.
ActualSize | May 02, 23:23 CET
ActualSize: I really don't know why the writers of Dollhouse should be concerned about character names on other shows
Besides, we all know that the character played by Liev Scheiber is Victor Creed, a mutant with long claws. (Checked imdb, the CSI character was Michael, not Stephen.)
OneTeV | May 02, 23:56 CET
b!X | May 03, 00:07 CET
That's why I love this show.
jcs | May 03, 00:17 CET
Simon, I don't know who Mickey and Mallory are but if you mean sort of, like Sid and Nancy, Charlie and Caril, Bonnie and Cl... Okay, you get the drift - the couple who crime together, stay together. Maybe this time it sticks? Maybe for a few episodes next season. And now, there really needs to be a Season 2.
Tonya J | May 03, 00:32 CET
Revolver | May 03, 00:36 CET
[ edited by doubtful guest on 2009-05-03 00:38 ]
doubtful guest | May 03, 00:36 CET
The Ballard/Boyd fight was a toughie. I found myself rooting for Boyd, I think because he seems to really want to protect Echo, whereas Ballard is trying to "rescue" Caroline out of some sort of ego thing, not because he's thought through what is best for Caroline and the other Dolls, but maybe just because Boyd seems so reassuring and decent while Ballard seems like the crazy. One thought I had about that - if Ballard had succeeded in bringing her of the Dollhouse, she would have lost all opportunity to ever become Caroline again.
barboo | May 03, 00:44 CET
I thought that exact same thing, Simon. Maybe it was the accent...
Haunt | May 03, 00:53 CET
WhoIsOmega? | May 03, 01:09 CET
NYPinTA | May 03, 01:34 CET
Regarding the "zOmg, they're all dolls!" theory: The episode "Echoes" established that non-dolls reacted to the memory drug one way [tripping out of their minds and experiencing a sort of euphoria], and dolls reacted to it differently. The dolls received vivid flashes of past events [Victor's was of war combat, Sierra's was of being raped, Echo's was of the death of Caroline's boyfriend].
That said, Adelle, Topher, Boyd, and Dominic could not be dolls. Topher can't be an imprint of Alpha. Dr. Saunders, however, was mysteriously missing from that episode. As was Ivy, Topher's assistant. This could have been done intentionally to allow the chance for them to be revealed as dolls at a later time.
My theory on what Alpha is doing is too elaborate to explain fully, and it kind of makes my brain melt, but the short version is that Caroline isn't the first Echo. Like how Sierra isn't the first Sierra, which makes me think the first Sierra may have been killed by Alpha or in the field sometime after Alpha's attack.
I think Alpha imprinted Echo with "Echo the first," an Echo that had begun to composite like him. Possibly she was killed in the field and this led to Alpha's composite event, where he killed indiscriminately during his escape but spared the new Echo because she had the potential of becoming a resurrected version of his former love.
CrazyKidBen | May 03, 01:51 CET
NYPinTA | May 03, 02:05 CET
Or to lead the audience to speculate that they might be.
Caroline isn't the first Echo.
Or the only Echo. There's a lot of Dollhouses. I know that wasn't your point, crazykidben, but there's only one military alphabet (or whatever that alphabet is).
redeem147 | May 03, 02:13 CET
CrazyKidBen | May 03, 02:39 CET
doubtful guest | May 03, 03:05 CET
Do different branches work together? What if the New York Dollhouse has a client who wants an active to travel from NY with him to a party in LA? Would the LA branch make its facilities available if needed? There'd then be two "Sierra's" or "Victor's" running around.
zz9 | May 03, 03:15 CET
doubtful guest | May 03, 03:27 CET
maxsummers | May 03, 04:14 CET
And cheers to most of you here for spelling Tucson correctly. Doesn't happen very often :)
JossIzBoss | May 03, 04:15 CET
And JiB, where is that statue then? And is there a big office block overlooking it? With lots of CCTV? And black vans?
zz9 | May 03, 05:29 CET
"And like the smoke creature on Lost, I don't suppose we will ever find out who programmed Mellie and Echo to get information to Ballard."
Pretty sure you've previously said you stopped watching Lost during Season 2 or 3, right ? So you've missed quite a few heavy hints and outright major revelations about the Smoke Monster, especially in Season 4 and 5 (the show really has paid off for those of us masochistic enough to stick around, heh. In spades. The writers finding out when the end date would be around the middle-to-end of Season 3, getting a commitment from the network to allow them to end it, resulted in a noticeable drive to speed things up and knock down all those dominos they'd set up). Even in Season 1 and 2 we got at least two glimpses or implications of its nature per year.
There is the season finale and the coda episode, #13, for the DVDs most likely. Two guaranteed episodes of Dollhouse yet to go. Why the assumption that we won't get answers to the question of who programmed Mellie and Echo in that space of time ? Doesn't it look likely it's Alpha at this point anyway ? (though I realize that might be too obvious) Why the premature griping ?
"As to a possible death next ep. It is obvious that the logical death would be November; she lost purpose with the break-up with Ballard, she is in the DH because of the death of her child, and she has nowhere to go in the arc- though that can change. I cannot see it being Victor, not after that slashing. Echo would be bold, but it's ED's show. Sierra is a sad story, there against her will, and as always in a Joss show, it is the lovable innocent who gets killed. Therefore, Sierra."
If we are getting a season finale death (likely, but I don't see why it's required in TV finales, I'd be just as satisfied if the situation got completely fucked up--kinda already is with Paul Ballard captured--but everyone still lived, since nearly all these characters rock or at least have potential if explored further) I really hope it isn't November. Not for demographic reasons (though it would be nice to keep the hot full figured girl on longer, I'll never ask/demand that a character be kept alive simply because they're under-represented), but because her character and story feels unexplored.
The loveable innocent already didn't get killed when most figured she might ("Mellie"), but then I wasn't spoiled for the reveal of November in "Man on the Street" and had no prior knowledge of Miracle Laurie's casting. So Joss isn't being predictable with that aspect, so far. I wouldn't figure on Sierra getting killed. Aside from Doyle on Angel (but that was apparently a forced hand thing due to Glen Quinn's personal issues/drug problems ?), Joss and Tim have never killed off a main credits character in the first seasons of any of their shows. Nor up until their fourth seasons either (if we're talking Buffy & Angel shows). First time for everything, sure, but if you're basing your predictions on the patterns of the creators/showrunners, then yes, the lovable innocent will get killed eventually (though I'd say Victor fits that just as well as Sierra, unless his real self did something horrible in his military career), but not this early in the run.
Kris | May 03, 05:50 CET
shambleau | May 03, 06:28 CET
Come to think of it, the first (chronological) time we see Kaylee, she's having sex. So maybe sexual innocence isn't necessary for Whedon-innocence. So Wash could be a lovable innocent anyway? I've confused myself.
Revolver | May 03, 06:39 CET
Here is a pic of the actual statue:
http://www.roadsideamerica.com/attract/images/az/AZTUCmuf_jeff.jpg
Apparently, one of the writers has been here before and noted this oddity (the lumberjack statue has nothing to do with any of the businesses around it - I think it is some remnant from something in the past). It is literally on a street corner of a fairly busy thoroughfare.
And I must say, they picked a pretty crappy part of town for the Dollhouse HQ if Adelle could see it out the window of "The Center". And there's no CCTV anywhere in sight - though they could be cleverly disquised ;)
[ edited by JossIzBoss on 2009-05-03 06:57 ]
JossIzBoss | May 03, 06:45 CET
This show is just getting better and better - the acting is ace, it looks like a million bucks, and now I am completely happy with the richness of its stories - the questions raised, the complexity & ambiguity of its morality, the volatility/malleability of its characters - I find all of it so interesting to watch.
Paul Ballard is not our pure white hat, and neither are Adele or Topher simply black hats. They - and other aspects of the show - force us to look at the nature of our assumptions about humanity - our motivations and our delusions and our denials, as well as our desires, satisfactions and our strengths.
In terms of the believability of the show - the practicality of it - the logistics of it all: I find it helps to think of the episodes as fairy tales, like "Briar Rose" or "The Goose Girl." I find that questions like "But why does the King pick straw for the girl to spin into gold?" and "could Jack really have beaten a Giant racing down a beanstalk?" help me see these kinds of concerns in a little different perspective.
Anyhoo - I devoutly hope, as many of you do too, that 1) Episode 13 airs one week after Episode 12 and then 2) Dollhouse gets renewed for another season. I think it was worth all the work and the fuss and the metamorphosis from ordinary action-drama to complex, satisfying storytelling.
Those were some mighty fine red bison this week.
ETF: my own logistical impossibility...
[ edited by QuoterGal on 2009-05-03 06:53 ]
QuoterGal | May 03, 06:48 CET
"You are very clever, young man, very clever. But it's turtles all the way down!"
That was one of my favorite quotes from that book. It was so awesome to see a reference to it here! Thanks for that! :)
Tarae | May 03, 09:07 CET
Simon | May 03, 10:04 CET
The picture used in the show is of a statue in Klamath in northern California:
http://www.times-standard.com/ci_7547326?source=most_viewed
http://walking-amy.blogspot.com/2009/02/week-46-orick-to-klamath.html
http://gallery.sunnyfortuna.com/displayimage.php?album=9&pos=39
Udo Schmitz | May 03, 10:20 CET
It was very curious to me.
Oh, and Alan is a god. Really. I watched the ep again just to enjoy his performance one more time. (though I also loved everything else)
Ifwewait | May 03, 14:06 CET
And someone earlier wondered about Dominic saying Alpha used to sign his name that way "in art class". I took this to mean while he was painting as one of the activities in the Dollhouse, not that they knew each other pre-Dollhouse.
zz9 | May 03, 14:37 CET
WhoIsOmega? | May 03, 14:42 CET
KariAri | May 03, 15:03 CET
Also off topic: Tarae, I just realised when you said 'that book', there's actually a fair number of books you could be referring to. I'm gonna assume you mean ABHoT but that story, or some element of it at least, has been referenced in many more books than I've ever cared to think about until now. Huh.
ellerulz | May 03, 15:20 CET
doubtful guest | May 03, 16:05 CET
Harmalicious | May 03, 16:58 CET
It seems to me that 'Caroline' would be on Ballard's side, since she is just as much of an idealist as he is... For example, in 'Needs', she led all of the dolls outside without thinking about how they would cope with the real world. This is pretty much what Ballard wants to do. They both have an unwavering sense of right and wrong.
On the other hand, clearly Echo sides with Boyd, since she trusts him, and doesn't have the same sense of outrage about the dollhouse, in fact she wanted to "help" topher find the spy.
I guess who you side with may depend on who you like better, Caroline or Echo... and I think most people like Echo better.
Isn't it interesting that we're siding with the morally ambiguous and complex characters, rather than those who are unabe to bend their own moral views. In fact, Caroline and Ballard have both been shown to be kind of 'dumb' at different times.
mortimer | May 03, 17:22 CET
jazza | May 03, 17:42 CET
It seems from this thread that alot of People wanted Boyd to Beat Ballard in the fight... personally, I didn't want either of them to be hurt. I was worried about both of them, because they both seem to be fighting for "good" reasons (or at least what they think are noble reasons).
mortimer | May 03, 17:57 CET
(Because in my opinion, Echo is a completely different person from Caroline, since the experiences that appear to be informing echoe's beliefs, reactions, and feeling the most, are from her memories of past missions that she has been on... and not so much from memories of being Caroline)
[ edited by mortimer on 2009-05-03 18:00 ]
[ edited by mortimer on 2009-05-03 18:38 ]
[ edited by mortimer on 2009-05-03 18:39 ]
mortimer | May 03, 18:00 CET
[ edited by The One True b!X on 2009-05-03 18:41 ]
b!X | May 03, 18:41 CET
mortimer | May 03, 18:49 CET
doubtful guest | May 03, 19:28 CET
Alpha was pretending all that. Or well, I think he was tapping into personas he has access to become what he needed to be to trick Paul. He's a genius with 40-something personalities in there. Note that he's completely different once he doesn't need to interact with Paul anymore. He drops the chattery annoying paranoid stoner agoraphobic stuff the moment he doesn't need it. Which is the moment Paul is gone and it's just Alpha shutting down the security.
Speaking of which, I'm a little confused about Alpha's laying the Kepler trail for Paul. Paul finds Kepler's name by doing some research on the building contractors after tracking November to that address. Alpha would have to anticipate what Paul's going to do next pretty damn well, since he's made sure his own photo appears as "Kepler" in that database.
Sunfire | May 03, 19:51 CET
I'm leaning towards the Echo composite morphing into Omega and saving the dollhouse, but being wiped at the end. It's all very interesting, like a giant puzzle.
bubblecat | May 03, 20:23 CET
b!X | May 03, 20:34 CET
Sunfire | May 03, 20:55 CET
narky | May 03, 21:03 CET
Astonishing_Chaos | May 03, 21:16 CET
That's my thought on it anyway.
Jes | May 03, 21:53 CET
doubtful guest | May 03, 22:05 CET
I agree, doubtful guest. Also, Alpha could have planted that picture long before. He knew what lead having the address of the Dollhouse would give a cop, and he could have told Paul where it is any time. I doubt that the one in this episode was his "A" plan. For instance, it now seems very unlikely that he meant to leave Echo helpless and in mortal danger when he remote-wiped her. More likely, it was an early effort to bring about Composite Echo (if that's what she is.) The Target may have been another.
dreamlogic | May 03, 22:23 CET
After Victor/Dominick comes out with "Whiskey," Dr. Saunders is told to give him a shot to make him more cooperative (a 'truth serum' of some kind seems to be implied). She gets the syringe, and goes over to jab V/D in the arm--but she does it right down by the arm restraint, so we can't actually see whether the needle is going in or not, and at the same time we get a close up on Dr. Saunders giving him a look that seemed to me to be like the look she gave Echo in "Needs"--a kind of "don't say anything, I'm on your side but we're being watched" look.
On the other hand, V/D seemed to give up all the info they needed, and then get wiped, so if there was meant to be anything in this moment it certainly didn't seem to get paid off in the episode. The only thing I could think is that Dr. Saunders wanted to grab a moment to ask about the "Whiskey" thing--but that would be more of a reason to pump him full of truth serum than not.
Did anyone else think something was going on at that moment, or was it just me?
snot monster from outer space | May 03, 23:52 CET
zz9 | May 04, 00:35 CET
fortunateizzi | May 04, 00:37 CET
dreamlogic | May 04, 00:53 CET
Adelle's office - is that underground too? If so, are the cityscape views from her windows simulations?
fangless | May 04, 00:53 CET
Also, personally I thought what Paul did to Mellie in this episode was far worse than his having sex with her in the previous one.
barboo | May 04, 00:56 CET
Let Down | May 04, 00:57 CET
Septimus | May 04, 01:00 CET
barboo, he said "they'll kill me, kill you, and kill me again" (or words and sequence to that effect).
b!X | May 04, 01:00 CET
Yes...it felt that way to me, too--although I have to say that I can't come up with a scenario in which Adele (at least) doesn't know who "Whiskey" is. The way I read it, actually, was not that we were meant to think that Claire had successfully fooled Adele et al. into thinking that he really wanted Whiskey; I saw it as Claire doing her best not to show that she too understood the reference. That is, I think Adele and Topher and Boyd probably all knew what Dominick meant by saying "Whiskey" AND they all think that Claire is not supposed to know--so she was ostentatiously playing dumb (certainly if we were meant to read it as a smooth diversion of attention, it failed miserably).
If I was Saunders and wanted to make people think I'd injected someone with a serum I'd just inject them with something harmless instead.
Yeah, I agree. On the other hand, if she was responding to him saying "Whiskey" then she may not have had anything on hand. That is, she could have walked into the room with two prepared syringes and then suddenly he hits her with "Whiskey" and she thinks "crap, for some reason that smfos won't be able to figure out I mustn't administer syringe #2 to him!!!"
I tend to agree that I was probably seeing something that wasn't there, but I am pretty sure that if you watch the scene again (which I plan to do shortly) A) the needle is obscured by the arm restraint--which means she's sticking it in a somewhat odd place (sort of mid-forearm--when I'd have thought the crook of the elbow is the usual place) and B) she gets a close-up shot for a look heavy with emotion of some kind. Perhaps it is just meant to show her compassion, her distress at what they're doing to Dominick/Victor, but it seemed on first watching oddly excessive unless something else is up (of course, it could be nothing more [or less] than that she is another NSA agent, and she's just giving him a "god, I'm so sorry I have to do this to you, but if I don't, I'll blow my cover" look--hey, I kinda like that theory!).
snot monster from outer space | May 04, 01:21 CET
Yay--I'm not totally delusional. Unless, of course, I just made up the comment to which I'm replying.
Adelle's office is above-ground, hence the need to take an elevator to get to it
Has that been established for sure? I mean, I know that the elevator bit is definite, but that the elevator goes that far up seems less clear to me. Remember the great single-take shot when they enter the elevator in her office and exit in the dollhouse? That seemed too short a ride to get us from the elevation apparent from her office windows down to the depths suggested by Ballard/Alpha's ventilation-shaft spelunking. I think the view might be fake.
snot monster from outer space | May 04, 01:26 CET
But, no, it hasn't been expressly established for sure.
b!X | May 04, 01:28 CET
JossIzBoss | May 04, 01:30 CET
Sunfire | May 04, 01:36 CET
[ edited by The One True b!X on 2009-05-04 01:43 ]
b!X | May 04, 01:41 CET
Quite possible. If she has become self aware, ie she is a Doll and knows she is a Doll, then must suspect that if Adelle finds out she knows she'll wipe her again.
So she'd assume that if she gives Victor/Dominic a truth drug he'd tell everyone she was a Doll, and she'd be the one being forced into the chair.
But....
That assumes she'd know that if she pretended to drug him he'd go along and pretend to be drugged and give up the password.
That would suggest they are/were working together. But then why would he call her by her code name and risk blowing her cover? It seems odd that he'd default to that under crisis after working with her as Claire Saunders for months. Maybe he worked with her as Whiskey for far longer?
My brain hurts....
zz9 | May 04, 01:41 CET
Both possibilities (hey, if you can master mind-wipes and personality implants you can probably figure out the super-express elevator too; maybe that's the Dollhouse's real "purpose"?). But a more serious objection would be this: Ballard says he was allowed to roam all over the above-ground portion of the building, without seeing any unusual security or anything suspicious. Something suggests to me that Adele wouldn't want Ballard (or anyone else) getting that close to her office without encountering some pretty impressive security tech.
The thing I found curious about that scene is that around the same time, Adelle whispers something into Boyd's ear. Not sure what was so private.
I assumed it was something to do with Whiskey's identity; you could imagine that Boyd knows that Dr. Saunders is/used to be an Active, but wouldn't have been told which particular code-name she went under. Of course, that's building a pretty big castle of speculation.
snot monster from outer space | May 04, 01:42 CET
I reconsidered my Topher-Doll theory in light of comments about "Echoes" which are totally right, he can't be an Active given what we were told about the drug's effects. So I think it can only be Saunders who is an Active in that room. And Alpha's interaction with her is pretty damn suggestive of the same idea.
The whispering could be anything related to the NSA mystery they think is afoot at the time or what had just happened.
Sunfire | May 04, 01:47 CET
Her office could be on a hidden floor.
b!X | May 04, 01:47 CET
Well, he's looking past where Saunders is based upon the injection, and Adelle would be too far over for him to be looking at her. Only person he could be looking at is Boyd. (We don't actually see who he's looking at, but it's the only angle that fits, I think.)
ETA: I step back partly from this. I still think it looks like he's got to be looking past where Saunders is, but there might be enough wiggle room for him to be looking at Saunders.
[ edited by The One True b!X on 2009-05-04 01:51 ]
b!X | May 04, 01:49 CET
When Echo was hanging Dominic out the window it looked like about the tenth/twentieth floor. Add that to five or ten floors underground and an express lift, sorry, elevator could do that in what, twenty seconds? A bit longer than the elevator shot we saw but not unrealistic for a TV show.
But does make Adelle's "Take the stairs!" order to Dominic that time more of a punishment!
zz9 | May 04, 01:52 CET
b!X | May 04, 01:54 CET
Sunfire | May 04, 01:54 CET
The sooner they perfect 3D TV the better!
zz9 | May 04, 01:54 CET
Overall, there's a lot going on in this scene, just as there is in the whole episode.
And, as enjoyable as it was to watch this episode, I feel like the pacing of the series is off. Specifically, not much happened at the beginning and stuff that was pushed into the final few episodes could have been spread out more. How great would it have been if these interactions and character developments had spread out over three or four episodes?
Septimus | May 04, 01:57 CET
Oh the drawbacks of TV budgets. It's like Smallville where Lex's "Mansion" only had one frackin' room! Whatever he was ever doing, business meeting, romantic dinner, fencing lesson, kickboxing practise, whatever. It was always that one room!
I half expected one day for his Porsche to need a new gearbox and it'd be in the bloody room next to his desk, up on a ramp with a mechanic working on it.
zz9 | May 04, 02:01 CET
doubtful guest | May 04, 02:12 CET
Jes | May 04, 02:40 CET
doubtful guest | May 04, 02:41 CET
barboo | May 04, 03:16 CET
It can't be just her office though. There's got to be space for an impressive reception area, someone who's handling payments and the fake papertrail, someone to bring Adelle tea and ignore the weird scene unfolding within.
Sunfire | May 04, 03:25 CET
Maybe it really is the Wolfram & Hart office. :)
ActualSize | May 04, 03:47 CET
I've been thinking, as a writer, how cool it would be if Saunders was a doll since the ep with the flashbacks. When Topher says, "Doc Saunders looks like a jigsaw", combined with it not making sense that Alpha would kill so many, leave one alone, and wound another, it made a lot of sense. He chops up Saunders into pieces. He cuts Whiskey because, as evidenced by Victor, he wounds dolls and makes them less useful. They need a doctor and have an active they can't use -- new Dr. Saunders.
Everyone's focusing on the line about whether she always wanted to be a doctor, which is the first clue, but the confirmation comes in his requesting details about how they first met -- he's fascinated by what they've done to Whiskey, after knowing Saunders, killing her, and cutting Whiskey.
All this is fine, but I reiterated some things because my current question is whether it's possible that Whiskey is the personality that Alpha has put into Echo. Perhaps she was his original lover? Probably not, just a thought.
PuppetDoug | May 04, 06:26 CET
This episode was so freaking interesting.
DaniVampsForJoss | May 04, 07:26 CET
Nice catch on the foreshadowing of the badge. I totally missed that.
wiesengrund | May 04, 11:15 CET
fangless | May 04, 11:21 CET
Methinks Saunders is the doll Whiskey, but during her interrogation by Alpha, we find out she is not apparently aware of her being in a new body. Claire Saunders could be a pastiche of the original Doc Saunders (no telling if that was male or female originally) modified to make her unaware of her being in a doll's body and to be rid of any desire to leave the Dollhouse (like to visit family, have a home, see the outside, grab a bit of takeout, etc.). We saw how Dominic reacted to waking in Victor's body, and waking up and finding out you'd been butchered and given a new body (with scars on it) would probably be rather more traumatic. Besides, if Claire knew she was Whiskey, she'd have clued into Alpha's mockery when he made her nod and answer his question (like a puppet) and said her always wanting to be a doctor was a lie, so maybe Doc Saunders was made into the synthetic persona of Claire Saunders and imprinted onto Whiskey by Topher after the original Saunders was chopped up by Alpha. The reason Dominic called her by that name could be that it was part of a pre-coded activation sequence as a Dominic-created sleeper, but it was circumvented by the injection. Or not. I'm not sure about that part just yet, but fairly certain it will be revealed next ep. (I'm also none too sure about Topher, either. He's way too young to have invented all that technology. A permanent personality transplant that is imprinted long enough might've allowed the 'indicator' drug to act the same as on a native mind. But since it seems there was a specific intention in that episode to establish who was and wasn't a doll, perhaps the given answer is really the truth in that case.)
And does anyone else wonder where the extra pod is? I mean, they have the pods in groups of five, but there are twenty-SIX letters in the alphabet. Either they don't use one of the letters, they added four more letters, there is a room with six pods instead of five, or they keep one pod separate for some purpose.
As for DeWitt's office, since Ballard went all up and down the floors looking for something suspicious and finding nothing (a process which likely involved at least a day or three, and therefore Alpha's data trail left for Ballard isn't so out-of-the-blue planned ahead with uncanny prescience; it was what illusionists and mentalists call a 'force', and Alpha knew Ballard was specifically coming when his planted photograph was accessed) the likelihood is that DeWitt's office is essentially isolated from the rest of the building or the access to the Dollhouse from it is very well disguised. How else could there be an elevator and a staircase to her office which Ballard would not have found or noticed by its disruption of the symmetry in the rest of the building? (Also this would make taking the stairs a much more odious trip, since there would be no way to get off at another floor and take the lift from there.) Unless, of course, Ballard really is that dim and gullible.
Roll on Friday, though. I simply MUST find out who (yes, methinks it's a who) Omega is. A new doll (Ballard, perhaps)? The personality Alpha imprinted Echo with? Another reveal of a secret doll we didn't expect? Then again, the phonetic for "O" is usually Oscar. Omega would be a counterpart to Alpha, implying the completion of his transformation. I hope it's not the end of Alan Tudyk's presence in the show (or the show's presence around Alan Tudyk, for that matter).
Grotesk | May 04, 12:27 CET
zz9 | May 04, 14:10 CET
Caroline is his primary focus, but 1) Mellie did say she could kill him and 2) he'd be stupidly suicidal to chance her programming at this time. All it would take is a green flower and he'd be dead.
falina | May 04, 15:23 CET
I tend to think his loosely formed plan was that he wanted to get an Active out to have as proof of the Dollhouse so he could return in force. He'd have been better off capturing Topher, but he couldn't have known how valuable Topher was compared to an Active.
[ edited by KingofCretins on 2009-05-04 16:14 ]
KingofCretins | May 04, 16:06 CET
Go after the Dollhouse for tax evasion. There's got to be something dodgy in their returns!
/This might be a slightly less exciting show.
zz9 | May 04, 16:50 CET
Not only that, but for much of the time DeWitt has supersize LCD screens showing CCTV coverage of the Dollhouse activities. Had Ballard wandered into that office during his exploration of the building, chances are he'd have seen something deeply incriminating. And, failing that, simply filming the interior of the office through the windows could get you some pretty damning evidence.
It's hard for me to see why you need to go to all the trouble of building multiple stories of underground office tower if you are going to have the very nerve center of the operation--the office that actually handles the stuff that a police investigation is likely to follow (money transactions, arrangements with clients etc.)--in a position of maximum exposure.
There's a sort of Kantian silliness to the idea that only if he had taken ANY Active OTHER than "Echo" could Ballard be considered to actually be trying to help.
Yeah, I've been deeply puzzled by this stuff in this thread. Ballard even says when he opens her pod something to the effect of "I can't take you, you're programmed to kill me when they flip a switch"--which seems a pretty reasonable basis for his decision.
Also, re his "obsession" with Caroline. Yes there is, obviously, something obsessive in this, but that's not all there is. Caroline is the only doll for whom he has a "real-world" name. It isn't much, but it is, at least, a lead to follow. It makes good sense for him to focus on rescuing the one doll who A) clearly has someone working for her on the outside (the packet that was sent to him), B) is clearly connected with people on the inside who are trying to bring down the dollhouse (the messages that Echo and Mellie gave him), C) he can place in several dollhouse-related missions and D) whose real-life first name he has reason to believe that he knows. What other doll offers him such promising investigative leads without also being a potential killing-machine? With Caroline he has his best shot of getting something that will make his FBI bosses sit up and take notice.
One last thing, too, about people's responses to Mellie. I'm interested how many people seem to be invested in Mellie's emotional responses to Ballard's "meanness" to her, without stopping to think that that response is just as meaningless as her preprogrammed love for him, or any of the Dolls' programming. Paul ditches her brutally because he calculates that that will send her back to the Dollhouse--which it does. Her suicidal misery, however, is just as factitious as her "you can do anything you want to me" speech in the previous episode. If you think Ballard should have ignored the first, then you should also want him to ignore the second.
snot monster from outer space | May 04, 17:21 CET
Also, re Victor's cuts. When I first watched this, I thought that what Alpha was saying to Dr. Saunders was that Victor's cuts were much deeper than the cuts he'd given her. But on rewatching his statement seemed ambiguous. If he was saying that Dr. Saunders' cuts were much deeper than Victor's, that would seem to be laying the ground for Victor to heal up completely in future.
snot monster from outer space | May 04, 17:28 CET
You do realize Echo has already kicked his ass though? And he has no idea if they all have mad sleeper-Doll skillz, but clearly sometimes she gets some kickassery? It's not self-preservation or prudence dictating who he tries to rescue there. Not matter which one he tries, yes. But it's really telling, the difference in his reactions between the two of them.
Sunfire | May 04, 17:35 CET
doubtful guest | May 04, 17:36 CET
As I posted elsewhere -- what if the Dollhouse was a POW camp or something, and the Actives just self-aware prisoners? How would "Echo" react if Ballard were to say "I'm sorry, I can't free you because I find you attractive and therefore have to question my own motives"?
Think she'd have said "I understand, you should rescue someone else because of your obvious bias"? Or "WTF, are you challenged? Get me outta here!"?
And, you're right, getting "Echo" out is his best evidence, because he can tie her to Myner, he can tie her to the religious sect and get other federal agents to confirm she was there. Two entirely different personalities, same woman, who stand before them as a chemically induced infant. They could probably EEG her or such to show the alterations to her mental state, and probably identify most of the drugs in her system. In other words, "Echo" unequivocally would prove that the Dollhouse exists. And Ballard, knowing where they are, could get the FBI to come in on them. Taking "Echo" was actually the smartest thing he could have tried, the more I think about it. I'm not sure he had a better play he could have made, he just happened to get caught.
KingofCretins | May 04, 17:41 CET
I'm happy to concede any of these points (whether they're true or not in the real world, they can easily be TV-true). But then why bother putting the Dollhouse underground? If her office can be made super-FBI-agent-proof above-ground why go to the insane expense (not to mention the incredible risks of drawing the very attention you're trying to avoid) of building the "invisible" underground building? Why not just use the same technology that you have in her office to cloak an above-ground Dollhouse?
You do realize Echo has already kicked his ass though? And he has no idea if they all have mad sleeper-Doll skillz, but clearly sometimes she gets some kickassery? It's not self-preservation or prudence dictating who he tries to rescue there.
Mellie told him in so many words that she was not like the other Actives--that she had a trigger that could be used to turn her into a killing machine. He knows that Echo can be programmed to attack him, but he also knows he's rescuing an unprogrammed Echo, and he knows that she doesn't have a built-in trigger (note, Mellie's trigger is not part of her Mellie-programming; she is a different kind of Active).
As for it "not being self-preservation"--that seems an odd claim when Ballard says, quite clearly, that the reason he isn't rescuing Mellie is because she has the trigger which can be used to make her attack him. Are you saying he's lying in that scene? To whom? Sleeping Mellie?
ETF clarity.
[ edited by snot monster from outer space on 2009-05-04 17:50 ]
snot monster from outer space | May 04, 17:44 CET
doubtful guest | May 04, 17:51 CET
Sunfire | May 04, 17:54 CET
wiesengrund | May 04, 17:58 CET
Sunfire, you're missing the point -- he doesn't have to know what a normal wiped Active can't do, he just has to know what "November" *can*. And what she can do, if he believes his contact, is kill him at the flip of a switch. He knows she's "special". He doesn't have any reason to suspect that's the case with "Echo". I take it you'd err on the side of him telling a fully conscious and self-aware Caroline he can't save her because he's attracted to her?
KingofCretins | May 04, 17:59 CET
doubtful guest | May 04, 18:02 CET
Sunfire | May 04, 18:09 CET
doubtful guest | May 04, 18:13 CET
Well, we quickly get into Quotergal's "but why spin straw" areas here, so maybe there's nothing more to say than "this is the way it is." Still, if one wants to play the hypothetical "how would this work in the real world" game, I don't really buy the distinction you're making. Why shouldn't the Dollhouse simply own half that office tower under a fake business name? I'd have thought that an office building using lots of power is a lot less suspicious than a building that doesn't exist having a steady stream of traffic (not just the Active's mission-vans, but the handlers, the art tutors, the masseuses, the chefs, the security people etc. etc.) in and out every day). Don't the legit people who work in that building ever look at these dark-windowed black vans zooming in and out of the parking garage (to which they don't have access...hmmmmmm) and say "what the hell business is that? It sure ain't listed on the building's directory!"
I mean, if the point here is that the Dollhouse needs to be so secretive that not even a front-company is adequate cover--if it needs simply to "disappear" it seems really weird that you'd make it's actual operation-center into the one part that wasn't "disappeared." Presumably DeWitt's office is, in fact, rented in the name of some kind of front-company--which seems like such an unnecessary risk (if, at least, we're in a world where we are to assume that front-companies are so terribly risky that the Dollhouse couldn't hide behind one).
And then you have the problem that you've built the Dollhouse as this utterly self-enclosed and self-sufficient space, and suddenly you pull a whole bunch of wires up out of that space and across multiple floors of a publicly accessible office building and into DeWitt's office. Again, think how much you're begging for a tap on those wires. Think how easy it would be for someone doing work on one of the offices below DeWitt's to stumble across those wires and say "hey, where the hell do these ones come from?" Etc. etc. My point is not really so much "hey, this isn't realistic" as "hey, this doesn't gibe with the symbolic resonance of the Dollhouse's 'underground' existence." If it's going to be underground then surely it's operating center should be underground too?
snot monster from outer space | May 04, 18:18 CET
Why? Given what Paul knows, he has a reasonable chance of success. If Kepler hadn't been Alpha (and there's no reason for Paul to suspect that), all Paul had to do was use his magic stun-gun thingy to neutralize Boyd and they were out of there.
The simple fact is that he has good reason not to take Mellie (again she specifically told him that she was a special kind of Active, implanted with an instant-killer-machine trigger), and he has an equally good reason to single out Caroline (she is--by far--his best potential lead). Yes there are layers of twisted obsession on top of all this, but even if Ballard were an ice-cool calculating machine, he'd still have made the same choices here.
snot monster from outer space | May 04, 18:23 CET
doubtful guest | May 04, 18:29 CET
Now what? This is Echo, not Caroline. Yes, she's more capable than an Active should be, a not-so-blank-state, but she's still relatively blank. She has no idea who she is. Not many memories that are really hers, compared to a normal person. She's got flashbacks-- to all kinds of things, real and not. But otherwise, not much to go on. I imagine it's going to be quite traumatic to deal with, outside of the so-creepy-so-safe spaland.
The Dollhouse took her personality away. The real rescue is giving it back or helping her get it back, if she evolves to a point where she realizes she's lacking part of herself. Rescue is not making the separation permanent or doing a good deed without really caring what it means for the person you are "rescuing." Paul does not understand that, or does not care.
Echo has a lot of would-be rescuers. Not one actually wants to give her back herself. Except maybe Boyd, but wanting isn't doing in his case.
And I'm willing to believe Paul really wants to give her herself back. I just don't think he's got any chance of doing it, because he's acting out of desperation here. This is his one manic attempt to save her before the Dollhouse kills him.
[ edited by Sunfire on 2009-05-04 18:36 ]
Sunfire | May 04, 18:33 CET
Same as my comment about Mellie & Paul, the preceding is fact-based. Just read the posts.
falina | May 04, 18:35 CET
Well, I guess we're in the realm of speculation here (and now that Paul's been caught, we're not going to know), but do you really think that getting Caroline out of the Dollhouse was the be-all and end-all of Paul's plan--that he was going to, what, fly away with her to Fiji and live out his days on a beach? My assumption all along is that he is trying to get something hard and fast to show to his superiors at the FBI so as to get them to come in mob-handed and A) shut the Dollhouse down; B) get the Dollhouse to restore ALL the Active's personalities; and C) earn the undying love of Caroline who will then run away with him to live on a beach in some island paradise (hey, I said I accept that there are layers of twisted obsession here).
Nothing he's done so far suggests that he has given up on the possibility of government-backed action against the Dollhouse. If that is his plan (and, to me, that seems the most reasonable reading of his actions), then getting Caroline is clearly the best shot he has of getting the FBI to say "hey, there's something here that needs investigating." He can put Caroline on the scene of several Dollhouse missions (to be sure, most of them only on the strength of his say-so, but he has video footage her at the cult stronghold). Unless the FBI is in Rossum's pocket, if he gets them Caroline they've got all the "probable cause" they need to go busting into the Dollhouse.
Falina: I think KoC was being ironic when he said "Paul is always wrong"--IOW, I think he was agreeing with you.
snot monster from outer space | May 04, 18:47 CET
Sunfire, nothing you've said makes leaving "Echo"/Caroline to continued slavery and abuse a rational option. No, "Echo" is not Caroline, at least not Caroline as she should be, and no, Ballard has no way on his own to fix that. But in what universe does that make the Dollhouse a better fate for her? Get her out, get the Dollhouse shut down, and then figure out what has to be done to fix her. If that means breaking Topher's fingers until he fixes her, so be it. But Ballard could no more trust the Dollhouse to fix her when he's on their turf than Caroline herself did in "Needs".
Snot monster is right in that Alpha being there makes most of Ballard's (and Boyd's) plans moot, but yes, Ballard's limited plan of "get 'Echo', leave Dollhouse" was very viable. The Dollhouse would hunt them, sure, but it's not like the FBI are just nincompoops with spitballs, and there's no reason to think he wouldn't have marched her right in there to his bosses and said "here's the proof, 23 Flower St, lock and load".
And, actually, Ballard is the only one who wants to give Caroline her life back. Boyd is protecting "Echo", and there's been no outward indication he gives a tin crap about the woman for whom "Echo" is the result of torture and abuse and slavery and mind control. Alpha doesn't seem to care about either Caroline or "Echo" but rather about whoever or whatever he imprinted. And what Ballard has is Caroline herself begging for help, a request that noone, not even "Echo" can revoke.
KingofCretins | May 04, 18:56 CET
(and, yes, I am assuming, seperately, that it is easy to come up with good reasons why a stable ex-doll would think it not a good idea to betray the dollhouse, but that's an entirely separate argument from what interests me here!)
We could imagine a disfigured ex-doll, passing a few weeks or months getting used to their new circumstance, deciding something like "y'know, I think I know what I wanna do with my life right now! I want to help other dolls avoid my trauma! Can I be given a set of skills to do this with, such as those of a physician or a psychologist?" (Certainly, in the real world, lots of people choose careers in things like medicine or law in part based on challenges they went through themselves -- the cancer survivor growing up to be an oncologist, etcetera.) This gives us a "real" person with a small set of "doll" skills as a character option, which is sort of interesting.
Actually, while this thought was triggered for me by other people's thoughts about what might have happened to the "real" Dr. Saunders or to the doll Whiskey at the time of Alpha's rampage, a similar scenario could exist even if Saunders was already the doctor we know in the series at the time of the rampage: If, say, the technology WASN'T perfect or for some other reason, Claire finished her five years in a somehow psychologically traumatized or unstable state, this could trigger the rest of the scenario I proposed (that she decides to stay on as an employee based on her own experience as a doll and becomes -- or is implanted with the skills of -- an M.D.). This would satisfy the mystery of Alpha's cryptic Q&A with her about "did you always want to be a doctor?" as well as his presumed habit of scarring the faces of the dolls/ex-dolls other than Echo that he doesn't kill, and makes for a bit simpler chronology around the time of the Rampage.
Either way, I guess it's obvious I'm really rooting for some version of an ex-doll as the most interesting dramatic possibility for Claire's background.
doubtful guest | May 04, 19:07 CET
Assuming that we don't get this in the next two eps, the thing that will most bug me about not getting a second season of Dollhouse (should that unfortunate eventuality, er, eventuate) is not getting to learn what Boyd's backstory and motivation are. He is in so many ways the most sympathetic-seeming person on the show. How on earth is he not working to bring the Dollhouse down? Or is he, in fact, doing so, but sees Ballard as moving too soon--as somebody who is getting in the way of a bigger and more wide-ranging investigation? Or does he, like Adele, think that whatever the Dollhouse's "bigger purpose" is is genuinely worthy? Are the lives of the Actives an acceptable sacrifice, in his view, for some as yet unrevealed greater good?
snot monster from outer space | May 04, 19:10 CET
Besides, does Echo have a personality other than her active assignments?? She did ask Topher to make her capable of exposing Dominic, she may have shown a couple of other independent thoughts, but how deep does the wiped mind/personality go?? She apparently retains loyalty to Boyd, but are any critical reasoning skills in there without programming??
And if Boyd is working to bring down the DH from a law enforcement perpective, there's a tremendous amount of left/right hand blindness going on. Which is not impossible to believe.
falina | May 04, 19:26 CET
Sunfire, your basic point about the unintended and kinda awful consequences of rescuing a "wiped" doll you don't know how to fix is certainly true, and not that controversial, I think. It is, in fact, alluded to by Boyd during the fight ("...you think you're helping her! You're wrong!..."). This is, I think, one essential difference between Paul and Boyd at this point: Boyd has seen enough about how the Dollouse works to know that, no matter how creeped out he has gotten recently (as seen in various conversations with Saunders and others), rescuing the-being-that-is-Echo-and-or-Caroline without a bigger plan will likely not help anyone.
Paul, of course, knows nothing about the inner science, some of which Boyd has at least witnessed. For all he knows, actives in between engagements are just "brainwashed" in the old Moonie sense, which, difficult as this can be to reveres, doesn't require fi-sci tech. He is also almost certainly naive about how much the FBI could really help -- of course they would try, but I kinda find myself thinking of the last scene of "Raiders of the Lost Arc", with some beaurocratic trickery leading to the "evidence" (Echo) disappearing. Basically, Paul, despite the messages sent to him, is a bit naive about just what challenges (both scientific and power-structure wise) need to be overcome. But, of course, this doesn't mean that his plan can't seem otherwise sensible to him initially GIVEN WHAT INFORMATION HE HAS. I think this is where SMFOS and others are going with their version of Paul's plan.
The main reason I think you got so much pushback, Sunfire, from me and at least some others, was your insistance that, because Paul's rescue plans were a bit either naive or half-baked, this somehow meant that his specific reasons for not rescuing Mellie were primarily based on emotional turmoil and self-deception. Even granting every single other point about what Paul does and doesn't know about his chances of success with Echo and/or Caroline, this does not in and of itself erase the separate and quite reasonable case (again, GIVEN THE INFORMATION HE HAS) for not rescuing Mellie at that time. The fact that his judgement of Task A is wrong does not in itself mean his judgement of Task B is also wrong.
doubtful guest | May 04, 19:36 CET
Yeah--truth is definitely stranger than fiction on that score ("we must keep this information secret from our enemies at all costs!" "Yeah, those KGB guys are everywhere." "KGB? I'm talking about those bastards at the NSA--no way are they getting bragging rights about this one. I'd rather see another major terrorist attack on the US than have to face that at the next inter-agency basketball game!").
He is also almost certainly naive about how much the FBI could really help -- of course they would try, but I kinda find myself thinking of the last scene of "Raiders of the Lost Arc", with some beaurocratic trickery leading to the "evidence" (Echo) disappearing.
One of the neatest tricks the Dollhouse could do is to hide in plain sight. That is, program all the Actives as versions of themselves and give them all some plausible (o.k., TV-plausible) reason for having skipped out on their former lives and started working in this underground complex in the middle of LA. They could all say "yes, I'm so-and-so, but no, I'm not being held here against my will, and no, I do not want you to inform my family of my whereabouts, it was my choice not to stay in contact with my family." It would present an intriguing legal challenge, wouldn't it--how far can officers proceed with people who seem entirely rational and entirely capable of deciding for themselves and who claim to be voluntarily choosing to lead the lives they're leading? Just how skeptical about someone else's "free will" can you reasonably (and legally) be?
snot monster from outer space | May 04, 19:44 CET
doubtful guest | May 04, 19:54 CET
That is an amazing observation. I have never thought through what would actually happen if Paul could convince the FBI to investigate it. The suffering of these people has the reflexive possibility to deny itself.
wiesengrund | May 04, 19:57 CET
KingofCretins | May 04, 20:13 CET
wiesengrund | May 04, 20:19 CET
Oh sure--it would definitely be a risky shot, but you can imagine ways it could be written so as to work without completely breaking your suspension of disbelief. As far as I know, Ballard only has "proof" of Echo being at the compound. He knows she was with Myner, but can't prove it (he can probably prove something about a payment, and probably place Myner as owner of that house, but he can't actually put Echo into the house with Myner except by his say-so). You could imagine a scenario in which the FBI guy leading the raid says to Ballard "hey, all you have shown me is that this kooky girl used to be a member of a kooky cult. How is that a surprise? And how does it prove that she was being held hostage by this nice, eco-friendly underground office which clearly lets its workers come and go as they please?"
Of course, we also have to assume that in fact the Dollhouse has someone on the inside at the FBI (Mellie's appearance/disappearance off the computer database suggests at least that much), so that could put a further spanner in the works. None of this says that Ballard's plan isn't perfectly reasonable given what he knows, it's just to say that even if he does manage to get to the FBI with enough evidence to make them raid the Dollhouse, there are ways that the Dollhouse could survive that.
snot monster from outer space | May 04, 20:24 CET
KingofCretins | May 04, 20:28 CET
doubtful guest | May 04, 20:33 CET
Sorry--we're pushing far out into speculation about a scenario that isn't going to happen. Probably best to leave it there.
snot monster from outer space | May 04, 20:41 CET
Yeah, it's not going to happen, but it's a hole in the idea that the Dollhouse is just impenetrable to being proven extrinsically, since it definitely isn't. Especially since the first agent that mentions to Ballard that the lady on the inside had a handler, african-american, mid-40s that he begins running through every photographic record of what went down at the compound and gets one of them to ID Boyd. IDing Boyd, with completely-different-woman-"Echo", together at that compound, would blow a bazooka hole in any cover story the Dollhouse would want to prop up.
KingofCretins | May 04, 20:47 CET
Wait a second: can the ATF guys ID Echo? They get to see through her eyes, but did they ever get to see her? I can't remember. Did she ever look at a mirror while they were monitoring her eye-cams? If not, that could plausibly leave them just ID-ing Boyd, which reduces the Dollhouse's problem to hiding Boyd--not so difficult (as long as one ignores all the other problems like hiding the bodies in the "attic" and hiding all the brain-rewriting equipment and all the financial records etc. etc. etc.--but those are real-world problems that could, I think, be brushed by with acceptable TV-show-logic). Sorry: last kick at this somewhat OT can, I promise.
snot monster from outer space | May 04, 20:57 CET
The suggestion that Paul has an emotional connection to Echo that's driving a lot of what he's doing and that he won't face for what it is has been in pretty much every episode so far. It's not just the scene where he opens the sleeping pods. That's just the latest and most striking one. The plans being half-baked is my argument against everyone saying "well he has to do what's plausible and safe." Dude left plausible and safe behind about 4 episodes back, and he was verbally switching out things to indicate he was preoccupied with Echo even before that.
Sunfire | May 04, 21:03 CET
It's something that occurred to me with the various comments about similarities between the two characters/the idea of Alpha having been imprinted with some of Topher's knowledge since wardrobe is something the show can tweak to send subtle messages.
And speaking of wardrobe, why couldn't Topher have been wearing one of those dinosaur shirts with the "sudden but inevitable betrayal" quote?
roofpig | May 04, 21:09 CET
If that's the "most striking" case of Paul's irrationality, that doesn't say much for the strength of the others. Mellie specifically warned him that she was an Active unlike all the others; that she was designed to be 'triggered' as a killing machine.
I'd be really interested to hear why you think Paul should simply ignore that warning.
Ironically, I agree with you that Paul has been acting irrationally, but I see that coming out far more in his complex feelings for Mellie (or 'Mellie,' I guess) than in his feelings for Caroline. Obsessed as he is with Caroline, it still makes perfect sense for him to see her as the most sensible choice of Active to try to spring from the Dollhouse. Where he acted really irrationally was in not playing the double-agent with Mellie. He should--rationally--have done everything he could to allay her suspicions. He should have been loving and warm with her, have told her that he was giving up on the search for the Dollhouse, that he was trying to get his life together (either by going back to work for the FBI on other cases, or by seeking some other employment), and then spent every spare moment of the day tracking her moves until she lead him, unsuspectingly, to the Dollhouse.
Forcing a rupture with Mellie (which he only did because he found himself incapable of living a lie with her--something that stems from his feelings for her, not his obsession with Caroline) certainly got him to the Dollhouse more quickly than a covert action would have done, but at the (high) cost of almost certainly putting him on the Dollhouse's "to kill" list.
So, I agree he has acted "irrationally" here, but not because of the Caroline fixation. And once he does follow Mellie back to the Dollhouse, everything that comes after seems to me perfectly rational. He can't get the FBI to sweep in on his say-so. He needs evidence. He has only a short time frame in which to get that evidence. He can't take Mellie as his evidence (she's got the kill-trigger, remember?). Caroline is clearly his best bet (for all the reasons outlined above), so he tries to get her. And, what's more, with a plan that very nearly succeeded: should he really have bet on Kepler being a double-agent? Or that Echo would fight his rescue attempt? Those were unforeseeable problems--and more than that, they were risks worth taking in light of the fact that the best probable alternative was being hunted down and killed by an Active.
snot monster from outer space | May 04, 22:20 CET
Since there's no rational, objective argument for an impartial rescuer to take "November", any imputed bias on Ballard's part is completely irrelevant. Who would, say, Seely Booth try to take with him if he'd been in Ballard's position? "Echo". Who would, say, Jack Bauer take? Well, no, Bauer would shove sewing needles into Topher's nipples until he restored all of the Actives. But, okay, who would Dana Scully take out of there in Ballard's position? "Echo". Who would Olivia Dunham take out of there? "Echo". And so on.
It's actually kind of sad that "Echo" fought the rescue -- she has a memory flash to a totally artificial moment that convinced her Ballard was a threat and she had a flashback to at least one of several artificial moments with Boyd to decide he was her friend. And yes, artificial. "Echo"'s trust for Boyd, even in her vaguely self-aware state, is still originally premised on a program, she'd have only allowed herself to be in situations with him where real trust could form because of the bonding. So the very fact that she's an Active led her to sabotage her own rescue.
snot monster, have to disagree on one point -- if Ballard hadn't dumped Mellie, how would he have prompted her back to her handler and the Dollhouse? The only times we've seen her brought in (and the only time Ballard could infer she was) was after she killed Hearn. Seems like they only bring her in when they can tell or she somehow cues them (like, say, by contemplating killing herself) that she may have something worth reporting. I can't say for sure, but if I were Ballard, I would certainly doubt that a deep cover agent would make contact for the purpose of saying everything was boring and normal. Plus, Ballard was clearly living in something very closely akin to a personal hell trapped under the thumb of a Doll he has to pretend to feel comfortable and loving with who could be turned on him in an instant and getting trapped in a cycle of sexual exploitation.
KingofCretins | May 04, 22:58 CET
Possibly. I still think the safe and "smart" play for Ballard to make would have been the one I describe. It might prove a bust, of course, but it would be worth a try (for one thing he can use her to try to persuade the Dollhouse that he's no longer a threat--that's a good in itself, even if she doesn't lead him to the Dollhouse). But it's not clear to me that Mellie would never go in for "treatment" if things were "boring." A) she's not programmed as a spy, she's programmed as someone who genuinely loves Ballard. So she's not going to be phoning the Dollhouse and giving them updates on what he's doing. If they want to debrief her, they probably need to bring her in (sure, it needn't work that way [maybe they implanted her with the trait of writing a diary every night and saying it all out loud as she writes it for the microphones embedded in her apartment], but it would be worth a try). B) we don't really know how long-lasting these programs are. Does Mellie never need a "top-up" bout in the chair? I don't think this has been established one way or the other (that is, when Mellie was living next door to Paul at the beginning, we don't know that she didn't go back to the Dollhouse every week).
Plus, Ballard was clearly living in something very closely akin to a personal hell trapped under the thumb of a Doll he has to pretend to feel comfortable and loving with who could be turned on him in an instant and getting trapped in a cycle of sexual exploitation.
Yeah, absolutely. That's why I say his "irrational" (i.e. human) behavior was sparked by his feelings for 'Mellie,' not his feelings for Caroline. Had he felt nothing at all for 'Mellie,' it would have been easy for him to use her to try to exploit the Dollhouse. As it is, though, he couldn't bear it, so he settled for Plan B. Kick her out so abruptly that he knew she'd go back to home base and risk having the Dollhouse decide to eliminate him.
snot monster from outer space | May 04, 23:44 CET
JossIzBoss | May 04, 01:30 CET
I'll never get through all the comments that have gone up since I was offline for a day, but this one struck me. I noticed it too, and then forgot it.
I do think it's significant, and just hope we'll get a chance to find out (that would be in season2). At this point, I don't think Boyd is nearly as much the good guy as I did originally. I think he's been presented as a sympathetic character as a set-up for him being very much not, his protectiveness toward Echo notwithstanding.
Re. the "why didn't Paul try to save Mellie" debate:
I totally agree. This is shaping up to be one of those polarizing issues, & I just don't get it. To me, it's a no- brainer. You don't try to save the active who has warned you that she could at any time, turn on you and kill you.
Shey | May 05, 13:04 CET
Sunfire | May 04, 18:33 CET
This I agree with. But to me, it makes Paul even more of a hero. A rash and possibly Quixotic hero to be sure, with a definite obsession in the mix. But all of that makes him even more interesting, to me.
And besides, Tahmon pretty. ;)
Shey | May 05, 13:20 CET
Of course, that could have been Adelle's plan all along -- without the Alpha complication, of course. I can't wait for Friday!
ActualSize | May 05, 15:03 CET
Sunfire | May 05, 16:50 CET
I think we all agree he's compromised. He obviously thinks he's compromised (re the shower scene, where he accuses himself of being one of the Dollhouse's "clients"). I'd still really like to hear why it is that you think he's simply "lying to himself" about Mellie's trigger. I'm trying to understand your point of view, but it just seems counterintuitive to me. Why do you think he should simply ignore the warning that Mellie gave him that she was a different kind of Active?
snot monster from outer space | May 05, 17:55 CET
The more time since the episode, the more I tend to think Ballard's plan was actually pretty solid considering the constraints he was working under -- he had to plan every corner of the thing outside of Mellie's presence, under the Dollhouse's nose, and without any official authority or resources. It would have been frickin' awesome if he could have brought Aisha Hands with him, though, and not just Alpha's lame cover. They'd have probably killed her off in the attack, but at least it would have made Ballard's plan look more credible. She could have even been there to infologue the obvious at us about taking "Echo" and not "November" so that people wouldn't be left to just question Ballard's motives.
KingofCretins | May 05, 21:07 CET
Yeah, but this show absolutely lives for questionable motives, doesn't it?
snot monster from outer space | May 05, 21:31 CET
korkster | May 05, 21:42 CET
I've tried to explain it. The emotional context of that scene doesn't match his words. His face is saying something very different. And his words don't match what we know about Paul, either. We do know he's uncomfortable with and in some denial about how much his obsession with the Dollhouse is also an obsession with Caroline. And his risk-taking and idealism up until that moment suggest a real unwillingness to let the risk that Mellie could kill him stop him, if he was there to save a Doll or who he could or whatever. Moreover, Paul is desperate. He's not holding anything back at this point. This thing has taken over his life, and he expects the Dollhouse will be trying to kill him very soon. Why is Mellie an unacceptable risk in that moment, when he's done nothing but take bigger and bigger risks, and when he's in the middle of taking the biggest one yet?
It's because she's not who he came to rescue. His face shows that when he looks at Echo. It doesn't make the regret less real, but the risk is a nice thing to tell himself. It's A reason, but it's not THE reason. The driving motive here is rescuing Caroline. It's no different from Topher telling himself pain isn't real or Adelle telling herself that what she does helps people. It's a lie that lets them keep doing what they're doing and smooth over the cognitive dissonance.
Sunfire | May 05, 22:31 CET
But, again, how is it a lie at all? If Paul weren't the person making that decision, if you were the one doing it, wouldn't you choose to rescue the Doll for whom you have a bunch of promising leads (Caroline) and specifically avoid the doll who has told you in so many words that she is a pre-programmed killing machine and, as such, unlike all the other dolls? Whatever Paul's mental state, this just seems to be a self-evident fact (quite the opposite, therefore, of the Topher and Adele cases).
Perhaps what is causing our mutual incomprehension here is that you think there is a special reason why Paul should rescue Mellie (rather than, or as well as, Echo)? Perhaps you feel that his reasons for rescuing Mellie are so powerful that they should override the self-evident risk posed by the fact that she is a special trigger-switch killer-active. Is that it?
Surely you'd agree that in the absence of that reason (whatever it may be) he is doing the obviously sane thing in leaving behind the trigger-switch killer-active and taking the lots-of-promising-leads-active, right?
I think there might be a more productive discussion to be had about the idea that he should rescue Mellie (which I suspect is your real claim) than about the idea that he's lying to himself by saying something self-evidently true.
snot monster from outer space | May 05, 22:56 CET
He's not in the Dollhouse to continue his investigation, he's there for a rescue. Leads really don't matter at this point.
Sunfire | May 05, 23:09 CET
O.K., I just can't see the point you're making then. I did try.
He's not in the Dollhouse to continue his investigation, he's there for a rescue.
We've covered this ground. Absent some new evidence all we've got is that we don't know what his next move was going to be. I don't think it's fair to simply assume that he wouldn't have contacted the FBI with Echo in hand (nor would it be fair to assert that he definitely would have).
snot monster from outer space | May 05, 23:53 CET
The thing is, I see in his face exactly the opposite: that he IS tortured by leaving Mellie, but feels he has no choice (for many reasons, but primarily the one he says). But, of course, the only thing more subjective than our interpretation of dialogue is our interpretation of expression and physical action, so neither of us can be proven wrong -- or right -- on this. I'm still a bit puzzled by what, at least as I read your posts, seems to be the sense that you have objectively, rather than subjectively, demonstrated something about Paul's motivations and goals. I guess I'll just resign myself to this puzzlement.
doubtful guest | May 06, 01:35 CET
jabby | May 06, 16:45 CET
I think Sunfire is right, which is why I and others are upset at the fact that he's leaving Mellie and the other Dolls behind.
It's in Paul's face when he compares sees both November & Echo. His job was to investigate & take down the Dollhouse, not to rescue Caroline. What you (& Paul) see as a "lead" is really a "distraction" set up by Alpha. His investigation gave him client names, the shell corporation, the location of the Dollhouse... but Caroline was handed to him. She is the trigger that turned his investigation into an obsession, which eventually made him lose his job (this was Adelle's doing, but it was his obsession with Caroline that tipped them off & lead to this moment).
An honorable intention would be to rescue all of the Dolls, not just Caroline. Caroline herself claimed as much in "Needs".
Paul didn't choose that way. He didn't make a plan. He didn't have any idea of how to get "Caroline" back into her body once he's "rescued" her (except to keep telling her that she's Caroline & that's she's brain-washed; good going on that one). He says he'll come back for the others once he has Caroline, but do we honestly think the Dollhouse wouldn't beef up their security after this break-in? What guarantee is there that there'll be another next time??
None. The path Paul chose was not the "following-leads-FBI-agent" one. It was the "I'm-obsessed-with-saving-Caroline" one. When Mellie tells Paul in "Briar Rose" to (paraphrased) "really look at her, have I ever said anything that wasn't the truth", he replied "you told me just what I NEEDED to hear". His mind was (already) made up on rescuing "Caroline" (he was already packing), and Mellie gave him the words he needed to believe what he was doing was right, even if it meant fulfilling his fantasy.
However, we all know that Paul does not have the knowledge nor the technology to "save Caroline" himself. He knows nothing about implants or where "Caroline" is even stored. He might have walked out with someone, but it wouldn't have been Caroline. This is what Boyd tries to tell him. Boyd's no prince himself, but from his lessons learned in "Needs" he tries to explain the bigger picture here. Paul doesn't listen and they fight.
The "look" that Paul gives November is a standard-Paul look; he uses what he needed to hear to justify leaving her behind (when there's no likely chance he could come back). However, it's the look that he gives Echo that betrays his "objective" opinion- he smiles. Right now she's Echo, not Caroline (he knows this because he tries explaining to her that she's brain-washed). But the smile, the reward, he gives himself is because he "found the girl" (he fulfilled/fulfilling his fantasy). There's no guarantee that she'll ever be "Caroline" at this moment, but his smile revealed that this is not a dutiful mission he's fulfilling, it's a fantasy.
korkster | May 06, 16:46 CET
Did anyone else notice that when Ballard kept referring to Echo as Caroline, Adelle said "You seem to know alot of things, except her name"? Does this imply that Caroline was NOT Echo's original personality name?
No, she said (paraphrased) "You know so many things. Facts. Names." Paul knows too many concrete facts, which is why Adelle then asks Boyd if he thinks they should mind-wipe him.
Sunfire | May 06, 17:04 CET
I agree with you about Paul's obsession though, his motivation is Caroline and his hero fantasy. He isn't trying to bring down the Dollhouse anymore...he is just trying to save her, for his own reasons. He is as corrupted as the rest of them. There is no true hero and no true villain in this show...they are all morally ambigous. Even Boyd, who is my personal favorite, isn't above scrutiny. He may be trying to protect the dolls, especially Echo, but he still allows her to be used as the dollhouse clients dictate.
jabby | May 06, 17:20 CET
Paul didn't choose that way.
That's simply an assumption. I think it more likely he planned to use Caroline to try to persuade the FBI to go in en masse to the Dollhouse HQ. I'm happy to agree that if the sum total of his "plan" was to walk out of there with "Caroline" and live happily ever after, then he's coocoo for coconuts. Given, though, that he seems aware that he's only got a few days before the Dollhouse has him killed, it's a bit hard for me to believe that that is the extent of his plan.
The path Paul chose was not the "following-leads-FBI-agent" one. It was the "I'm-obsessed-with-saving-Caroline" one. When Mellie tells Paul in "Briar Rose" to (paraphrased) "really look at her, have I ever said anything that wasn't the truth", he replied "you told me just what I NEEDED to hear". His mind was (already) made up on rescuing "Caroline" (he was already packing), and Mellie gave him the words he needed to believe what he was doing was right, even if it meant fulfilling his fantasy.
Actually, you get Mellie's line slightly wrong. What she says is "think about whether I've ever told you anything that I didn't believe with all my heart." When Paul says "you told me exactly what I needed to hear" he was saying, as I see it, two things. 1) at the surface level: "exactly, the problem is that everything you say you 'believe with all your heart' because that is what you're programmed to believe, not because it's true." and 2) at a more ironic level "you just said exactly the right sort of thing to say in a situation like this--which just proves that you're the result of fiendishly clever programming, not that you're a real person."
I can't see how what she said has anything at all to do with his plan to rescue Caroline, however. Surely you're not suggesting that he had doubts about whether he claim to be a specially-designed kill-bot Active was true until she said this? What Mellie says in her Mellie persona would have no bearing at all on what she said when she was conveying her secret message from whoever the operative inside the Dollhouse is. And, remember, we actually know that this is true. We know that Ballard is quite right to believe that she's a special kill-bot Active AND we know that he has pretty good proof of this (the fact that she killed Sierra's handler).
he uses what he needed to hear to justify leaving her behind
No. He uses what she said to him in "A Spy in the House of Love" (and which he absolutely loathed hearing) to justify leaving her behind (i.e., that she is a special kind of Active--one implanted with a kill-bot trigger switch). His decision at that moment has nothing at all to do with her claim to have "always believed with all her heart" whatever lies she was telling him as 'Mellie.'
snot monster from outer space | May 06, 17:22 CET
And I agree with snot monster about Paul's line in the scene with Mellie. Paul knows that she'll always say whatever he needs to hear to be convinced they can make it work. Because she's not real! It's really quite cruel, what Adelle's done to him.
snot I really don't think he has a bigger plan. The FBI is not his friend anymore. Showing up with a amnesiac woman and a tale of an invisible Dollhouse is just going to make him look criminal in addition to crazy. He's not exactly shown a strength for planning ahead, so far. Whatever Alpha calls him-- Mr. I-Shock-All-My-Problems, was it? -- is pretty damn accurate. When Paul gets a lead, he follows it immediately. Typically to an ass-kicking he sorta barely escapes from only because he is a force of nature and has ninja skills.
Don't get me wrong, I like the guy. I think he's great. But I also think he's in way over his head and isn't thinking more than a couple steps ahead at the moment.
Sunfire | May 06, 17:44 CET
Well, that's your guess, and it's fair enough to make a guess. As several of us have pointed out repeatedly, however, he would have a lot more that "an amnesiac woman and a tale of an invisible Dollhouse" if he showed up with Echo. He has her on video at the cult compound. He has the "Caroline" photo sent to him by Alpha. He can tell them of several encounters with her in other locations and with other personalities. If they're willing to run with his lead at all (and, remember, they'd have to be writing him off as genuinely psychotically delusional to simply ignore him at this point) there's a good chance that they could turn up more evidence (of the CSI kind) to place her at other scenes (show a photo of her to the girl from the pilot-episode and say 'was this the beautiful lady who rescued you'?--for one easy example).
Now, you may be right that he simply wants to live out two or three days with Caroline before the Dollhouse kills him and recaptures her--but that is suggesting a level of both personal despair and mental collapse that goes a very long way past what we have been given evidence to support. (And we do know--because he says as much--that he is fully aware that he's living on borrowed time now if he can't shut the Dollhouse down).
snot monster from outer space | May 06, 17:58 CET
jabby | May 06, 19:51 CET
Sunfire | May 06, 19:59 CET
Unhingeness of Paul:
1) Hasn't slept nor showered in several days, with big conspiracy map up on his wall in "Spy in the House of Love".
2) "I'll get to save her." "Them, you said 'her' but you meant 'them'." "Well, by 'them' I'll first get to 'her', yes 'them'." I think it's MotS or "True Believer" area (between Mellie & Paul).
3) "They'll kill me. They'll kill you. They'll kill me again." "I have to save her." from "Briar Rose" between Kepler & Paul.
4) No rope, lights, blue prints, plan of rescue... as pointed out by Kepler in "Briar Rose" right before they jump down 10 stories.
5) "You're going about this the wrong way." Messaged-Echo from MotS.
6) "You're Caroline. They've brain-washed you. You asked me to save you." from "Briar Rose" while talking to Echo, a Doll.
If he knew that he'd only had a couple of days before the Dollhouse killed him, wouldn't he put a plan in place before he shows up with this girl & hopes they believe him? A girl who's a Doll and doesn't think she's Caroline? What would/could the FBI do anyway? The Dollhouse's power is extensive (we know they're involved with Senators). Think about it. It makes no sense. Which is the point. Alpha & Adelle knew which pressure point to push to tip this guy over the edge.
No. He uses what she said to him in "A Spy in the House of Love" (and which he absolutely loathed hearing) to justify leaving her behind (i.e., that she is a special kind of Active--one implanted with a kill-bot trigger switch). His decision at that moment has nothing at all to do with her claim to have "always believed with all her heart" whatever lies she was telling him as 'Mellie.'
I think the main difference in the fantasies with Mellie & "Caroline" is that he knows Mellie is fake. "Caroline", however, is "real" and wants to be rescued by him. However, Caroline (the real one), has never met the guy and is still on a disc somewhere that Paul will never find. By denying Mellie/November the "freedom/rescue" he promises "Caroline", he denies the fact that he is living a fantasy by the whole "rescue" operation. His "Caroline" is not actually Caroline, but Echo. He doesn't win this way.
Please remember that I'm not upset that he didn't "rescue" November in particular, but it's that he believes that "Caroline"/Echo is the only that can be saved. Pick Sierra, pick Victor, pick Mike or Tango... but he doesn't. He chooses to rescue the face of his fantasy, in order to fulfill it.
korkster | May 06, 21:19 CET
Sunfire | May 06, 21:26 CET
hacksaway | May 06, 22:02 CET
korkster, you've got flat out no text to suggest Ballard thinks Caroline is the only one that can or should be saved. We don't even have text to suggest that Caroline's wasn't the very next cell he opened. And we also, as has been discussed, a lot of reasons why his best actual *evidence* of the Dollhouse comes in the form of Caroline, because she's the one he can most readily document outside the Dollhouse. "November" and "Victor" he'd only have his own say-so.
I can't believe we're actually having a conversation impugning the man for smiling when he opened "Echo"'s cell. I get the feeling, I really do, that if Ballard had scooped "Echo" up in his arms, run out of the Dollhouse, and ran across the ocean to Catalina to hide out with her, I could find 3 or 4 people to say "look, Ballard can't even swim!"
KingofCretins | May 06, 23:53 CET
That said, I agree that taking Echo was the sensible thing to do and that the most reasonable assumption to make is that he would have gone to the FBI with her
Let Down | May 07, 00:15 CET
Still love the show though.
ShanshuBugaboo | May 07, 00:43 CET
I don't think he's completely nuts either. Just a jerk. And I don't see any comparison with Mal. Mal was never into being a hero, and despite his faults I don't believe it's within his character to treat people like objects (or have sex with someone who had no will to really consent just to get out his aggressions.
Mal also took the chance to save River, even when doing so proved a threat to him. You certainly can't say the same about Paul and Mellie. He takes one disdainful look at her in her pod and says the obligatory "I can't save you because you might kill me," thing, and I guess that saves his rep for some people, but not me.
ShanshuBugaboo | May 07, 00:51 CET
Sunfire | May 07, 01:53 CET
I see what you mean, and I do like characters like that (ie Mal, Post-Season 3 Wesley); I guess I just don't sympathize with Paul. *shrugs* Even in other Whedon characters' darkest times, I felt like I could walk in their shoes. I don't get that depth from this character.
ShanshuBugaboo | May 07, 02:04 CET
Paul's obsession about bringing down the Dollhouse (also known as saving "Caroline") is not unlike Angel's obsession with bringing down Wolfram and Hart in season 2 (and saving Darla.) I actually felt a pretty strong dislike of Angel in that season too (though not as much as Paul.)
Hmm.
ShanshuBugaboo | May 07, 02:07 CET
Sunfire | May 07, 02:23 CET
It's also worth noting that he immediately started to get her attention, and that he probably thought it would be better to be smiling and friendly about it than stern and frightening.
KingofCretins | May 07, 02:32 CET
But, that doesn't mean that his little light isn't nibbled at by the darkness. If you dive into mud, you're going to get muddy.
KingofCretins, I don't understand why you think my points are outrageous (or curvy instead of flat out).
korkster, you've got flat out no text to suggest Ballard thinks Caroline is the only one that can or should be saved.
Caroline is the only one that Ballard is willing to save at this moment. But he doesn't have the tools, technology, or plan to do this at this particular moment. Which is why Caroline becomes "Caroline"- Paul's fantasy. He can't save the actual person within his means.
And we do have text to support his fixation on "Caroline". Both from Paul & Alpha. From Paul's perspective, I selected a few scenes in my earlier post. If you want Alpha-proof, just let me know.
We don't even have text to suggest that Caroline's wasn't the very next cell he opened.
Yes we do. You clearly see it in the episode. The first pod that is opened (goes dark) is November's. He closes it. The next cell to be opened right behind him (also goes dark) is Echo's. The only other pod that is broken (the light was on) in "Briar Rose" is Victor's (which is to the right of November's) and that's because Boyd & Ballard "were fighting on [him]" and crashed though the lock.
It comes in the form of Caroline, but not from Caroline. The photo & video were supplied by an anonymous (Alpha) person, who could have been fuckin' with him (as were his co-workers). He did receive a phone call from a person who didn't know who she was (Caroline), only that they might be underground.
If he were actually trying to get a warrant for such a thing, he would fail because in the end he only has his own say-so for her as well.
At least for November/Mellie, he & Loomis witnessed the deletion of November's previous identities (former imprints?). Still no hard evidence, but at least he can count on another's say-so. ;)
I can't believe we're actually having a conversation impugning the man for smiling when he opened "Echo"'s cell.
*looks up impugning*
Look, I'm not attacking Ballard for his faults. Like I said, I like the guy. But I don't see how looking at the evidence in the episodes that you can honestly say saving "Caroline" didn't also serve his own fantasy, or even be the cause of it.
I'm not a hater of any of the characters (love Topher as well). But I do think this is what was intended- just because they may be the "hero" doesn't mean that we have to always like them. And just because they are an obnoxious jackass who works for an evil business, don't mean we have to immediately hate them either. The point is that we carry both types of qualities, and neither should be ignored for our "rooting/jeering".
korkster | May 07, 02:37 CET
Whoever sent the message had the Echo body say the words, possibly as part of the larger 'make Paul nuts' plan, but it was not a real personality of the body.
By the way, looking at next week's promo I think there are way, way too many loose threads to be neatly tied off Friday.
ETA: I still find Topher annoying.
[ edited by falina on 2009-05-07 03:00 ]
falina | May 07, 02:57 CET
Sunfire | May 07, 03:01 CET
Let Down | May 07, 03:02 CET
Let Down | May 07, 03:03 CET
I'm talking about the phone call in "Needs". Caroline in "Needs" *was* Caroline, just without her memories. This is black letter text in that episode. The four Actives were given their fundamental personalities back, just not their memories (specifically, not their declarative narrative long-term memory). It *was* Caroline who, while probably having no idea why she knew Paul Ballard, called him and asked him to get her out.
To borrow from King's "The Dark Tower" and his gunslingers, "we may be cast on, but no man may cast us back" -- nobody, not "Echo", not Adelle, not Boyd, not Mellie, not Alpha, can revoke Caroline's plea for help on her own behalf.
KingofCretins | May 07, 03:08 CET
ShanshuBugaboo | May 07, 03:11 CET
And I guess KingofCretins that this is something that we'll have to agree to not agree on. If there were one scene that would explain the dark fuzziness on Paul's hero journey, it would be the dream sequence in "Needs".
That sequence, coupled with the fact that without the Dollhouse's technology (which they are not going to supply), he can't actually free Caroline, makes his motivations worth an honest acknowledgment.
korkster | May 07, 03:42 CET
falina | May 07, 03:59 CET
I think that within the construct of this show, character motives matter quite alot. If you want to ignore Paul's motives (and simply call him a hero) that's fine, but you're not going to get as full an understanding of the themes and ideas the show is trying to bring up.... surely character developments(as shown through character motives) are some of the most important aspects of a Joss Whedon show.
I also think that motives are important in the real world as well, since sometimes all we can control are our own motives.
mortimer | May 07, 04:25 CET
mortimer | May 07, 04:29 CET
And again with the so what? It still comes back to this completely preposterous argument that his motives can only be clean if he willfully ignores the ONLY Active that he has heard the true voice of and received an actual request for help from. The ONLY Active who provides him meaningful evidence of the Dollhouse's existence. What is this even an argument about?
I have trouble reconciling this relativistic pummeling of Ballard as part of the greater Joss vision behind "Dollhouse" -- this is the man who, per Doug Petrie, said that, yes, Spike should be written heroically when he escaped the Initiative, that he was heroic there. This was when Spike's only rep was as a villain. How do we get from that being Joss to the idea that if Ballard smiles ambiguously, he is pretty much finished as "heroic" in this episode or this series?
KingofCretins | May 07, 04:45 CET
While I'm largely in agreement with you KingofCretins (in that I think that, though Ballard's motives are questionable, deciding to take Caroline out first was the most sensible thing to do and it's most likely what he would have done had he not been obsessed with her) I'm not convinved by this comment. Buffy was a superhero show and it didn't hesitate to show us heros and villains. Dollhouse is something altogether different. As many people have pointed out it takes pains to call into question the goodness of the good guys and badness of the bad guys. I do think the writers are trying to get across that Paul is not a 'hero' - even if he is basically a good guy. (I also don't think there was much that was ambiguous about that smile. It was intended to be creepy IMO. Maybe we'll have to wait for final word from Joss, Jane or Tahmoh on this).
Actually, I was referring to the fight in the alley. MotS? And I'm personally unconvinced by the Needs episode.
Um, what? We know you were referring to the fight in the alley (and yes it was in MotS) but you were trying to correct people who said that Caroline had contacted Paul. So we pointed out that what we were talking about was the episode in Needs. So I'm not sure why it's relevant that you were talking about the fight in the alley; nobody is suggesting that Caroline was saying anything to Paul in that scene.
And I'm not sure how you can be unconvinved that in 'Needs' Caroline contacted Paul. Care to elaborate?
Let Down | May 07, 05:27 CET
No one is making the argument that Paul's motives can "only be clean if he willfully ignores the ONLY active that he has heard the true voice of and received an actual request for help from". This is clearly a losing argument, which is why you're trying to twist their arguments in to being about that.
If everyone believed that this was the only reason that Paul picked echo/caroline, then that would clearly be a morally "clean" motivation... but some people, including me, see other motivations for his pick.. which various people have outlined above.
It seems to me that this argument continues to rage because neither side is actually listening to the other's argument.
[ edited by mortimer on 2009-05-07 05:38 ]
mortimer | May 07, 05:35 CET
doublemeat | May 07, 05:59 CET
I just enjoy exploring the complexity of all of these characters.
mortimer | May 07, 06:04 CET
KoC, I wasn't arguing that he should ignore her -- only that if his motives were "purely" about bringing down the Dollhouse that he would make more of an effort to save others as well.
I'll just leave it at that. I don't like him for a lot of other reasons as well. He's grated on me since episode one. I won't come onto every single thread and repeat how much I dislike him (as some people seem to do for other characters - mostly Topher) because I respect that there are Paul fans on here. But that's just how I feel. I still love the show, and every other character.
[ edited by ShanshuBugaboo on 2009-05-07 10:02 ]
ShanshuBugaboo | May 07, 09:08 CET
jabby | May 07, 15:05 CET
You're the one who keeps bringing that aspect up, this idea that if Paul's motives aren't pure he's somehow now "finished" as a hero. It's never been my point. He's not the man with the plan some people here seem to think he is, but neither is he some terrible person without any heroic qualities or intentions. His motives are mixed, and have slowly become more personal over time. I don't think that means he's "finished" as anything, just complicated and, as jabby points out, a guy I think the audience is meant to be unsure of at this point.
Sunfire | May 07, 15:18 CET
doublemeat | May 08, 01:24 CET
I don't see Topher as distinct from other DH staff. If you do, please list the appropriate criteria.
[ edited by falina on 2009-05-08 03:43 ]
falina | May 08, 03:42 CET
Why is Boyd working for the Dollhouse? Why does Ballard so desperately need to save Caroline? Why did Adelle need Roger? Dominic came close to purity but my favourite line in the entire series – "Look how that turned out. You were wrong" – where he tried to hurt the one he loved, showed why he failed.
Dollhouse is about Topher.
doublemeat | May 08, 08:31 CET
mortimer | May 08, 09:55 CET
ShanshuBugaboo | May 08, 12:03 CET
But more goodies tonight!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
falina | May 08, 13:19 CET
doublemeat | May 08, 13:30 CET
Sunfire | May 08, 15:12 CET
I agree with pretty much everything you say, Sunfire, and this has been what I have been trying to get across. Thanks for doing so.
korkster | May 08, 23:34 CET
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