May 04 2009
Poll: Which is the greatest Joss Whedon show?
Sci-Fi Heaven.net asks that all important question.
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I love Firefly and its first and only season is miles above Buffy's first season, but Buffy just had more time.
InevitableTraitor | May 04, 08:56 CET
XanMan | May 04, 09:03 CET
Buffy is my favorite but I've always said that if Firefly had time to develop it would've been the greatest Whedon show. Hence, the greatest show period.
FaithsTruCalling | May 04, 09:05 CET
... but it's Buffy.
ThorpeWithoutShrimp | May 04, 09:14 CET
...but Dollhouse has the potential to surpass it.
deird | May 04, 09:23 CET
Its indeed Buffy, but Firefly is amazing. Not a flaw. And Objects in Space the best thing made for TV ever, there is even a celestial choir when I watch it (ok, only in my head, but still)
Satai (with Punsch) | May 04, 09:25 CET
wiesengrund | May 04, 09:26 CET
I think, two years ago, I probably would have said "Buffy", but now I find it difficult to choose. Before Dollhouse premiered, I rewatched "Firefly" in my excitement for a new Joss Whedon-show and strangely this time I appreciated the show much more than when I watched it for the first time. But then again, I really really love Bufy. I started watching it when I was 10 and it is pretty much the only thing from that time of my life that I still love. Also, Buffy had such a large impact on who I eventually grew up to be. A huge impact on how I think and feel.
But I also really love Dollhouse. I find the concept and the characters, despite a few weaknesses in the early stages of the show, absolutely compelling.
Donnie | May 04, 09:30 CET
Angel was also good but to me it only became great in its last two seasons. I remember thinking when Wesley had to cut off Lilah's head that it was the first time the show had ever moved me in addition to merely entertaining me.
Dollhouse has been more up and down than I'd like but its ups (especially 'MotS' and 'Spy') have been very bloody up and its downs not all that down. I think it has the potential to become Whedon's best show given a few seasons
Let Down | May 04, 10:00 CET
I liked Buffy and Angel much more than 'Firefly' and already like 'Dollhouse' more than it too. I thought 'Firefly' was good but so far all of his other shows have worked better for me.
vampmogs | May 04, 10:07 CET
to be fair, you'd have to compare buffy's first 13, not buffy's best 13..
lanceuppercut | May 04, 10:08 CET
Let Down | May 04, 10:15 CET
dottikin | May 04, 10:28 CET
Allen Doyle | May 04, 10:39 CET
I do enjoy Angel as much as Buffy, but Buffy was first, plus Buffy was the start of Angel.
Firefly is good, but theres just not enough of it to judge it as much as Buffy or Angel.
Dollhouse is brilliant, the plot to the show is amazing and each episode is more and more surprising.
Each show is different and i love them all in different ways.
[ edited by gingyfromshrek on 2009-05-04 10:53 ]
gingyfromshrek | May 04, 10:50 CET
I still get teary-eyed thinking about it's cancellation.
Agnostic Prophet | May 04, 11:09 CET
On Firefly: I thought that the first couple episodes were pretty average, until Episode 8. Then I thought it grew to be a great show. If it had more seasons I might of picked it.
geratongs3000 | May 04, 11:24 CET
I voted for Buffy, however I could have just as easily voted Angel or Firefly.
Thuddles | May 04, 11:31 CET
Shep | May 04, 11:35 CET
The reason I ignored Dollhouse is that I'm waiting for it to air over here (here being the UK) Trying not to get spoiled is proving to be very difficult.
property of Mr Gordo | May 04, 11:39 CET
I enjoyed Firefly quite a bit, but it's the movie more than the show that made me wish that the show had a few more seasons.
fanshawe | May 04, 11:42 CET
Not only did 'Angel' bring us along for Angel's road to redemption, we also got quite was is possibly the single greatest character arc ever seen on television- Wesley Wyndham-Pryce.
Hence, count me in for the minority.
missb | May 04, 11:56 CET
Imogen | May 04, 12:21 CET
archon | May 04, 12:48 CET
rivergirl | May 04, 12:59 CET
Rusty626 | May 04, 13:53 CET
[ edited by KingofCretins on 2009-05-04 14:05 ]
KingofCretins | May 04, 14:03 CET
Alas, TPTB decided 14 episodes was enough, and broke all the Browncoats' hearts. Rather cruelly, I might add.
Buffy it is, then. Being my favorite show (and I honestly believe, the best) of all-time, it moved me in a way I didn't know television could. I'd never experienced fandom, or obsession, until Buffy. My heart cracked during Buffy's speech in Prophecy Girl. It stopped during Innocence. And was irrevocably broken during Becoming. Everything that came after that was just gravy, and I wouldn't trade The Body or Once More, With Feeling for the world.
I adore Firefly and was quite literally devastated when it was canceled, but nothing in it touches any of those episodes I just mentioned. All my humble opinion, of course.
I also love Angel, and am currently loving Dollhouse, but I need more time. More please? Second season, I'm waiting for your announcement. Any day now... (he deludes himself, knowingly)
Ifwewait | May 04, 14:11 CET
Rowan Hawthorn | May 04, 14:15 CET
Hmm, Dollhouse it is.
edcsLover9 | May 04, 14:18 CET
Buffy got 7 seasons, and was able to achieve it's full potential.
Firefly only had 13 Episodes and a Pilot...
and was as powerful, passionate and entertaining as Buffy...
in less than one season.
TDBrown | May 04, 14:57 CET
Really, the poll was just depressing because it was a grim reminder that Joss' shows are often not allowed to grow up.
meloukhia | May 04, 15:03 CET
The Do That Girl | May 04, 15:09 CET
embers | May 04, 15:09 CET
nna_funk | May 04, 15:12 CET
theclynn | May 04, 15:19 CET
But I watch a little bit of Buffy almost everyday. I'm a total Buffyholic. Action figures, books, magazines, everything I can get my hands on, I'm addicted.
Xane | May 04, 15:27 CET
Wyndam_ | May 04, 15:51 CET
Firefly is good/solid and all, but BtVS had far more episodes of pure greatness and time to develop. Firefly didn't get the chance to continue on to whatever it could have become so it very well may have gotten better, but it just as easily may have gone down some roads that people didn't care for. It's silly to give Firefly points for how great it could have been, because who knows what could have happened? The only thing there is to judge it what was actually made and BtVS easliy wins.
Angel I'd rank either before or after Firefly, I'm not sure. The thing about Angel is that it has a number of good/great characters and character arcs but there's also the horrible mishandling of some others and plot threads that genuinely--I'm sorry to say--suck. Angel really had its best overall season in year five but before then it was way too hit-or-miss.
Buffy wasn't perfect by any means, but the growth, development, top-notch talent, number of standout episodes and many other qualities just dwarf all the other shows completely.
Dhoffryn | May 04, 16:12 CET
#2 Dollhouse
#3 Firefly
#4 Angel
Buffy, is the best, purely because it was gven the time to be the best. I think that Firefly and dollhouse, would/will be better given a few more seasons.
Very close between Dollhouse and Firefly for 2nd.
Angel was entertaining, and at times brilliant, but didn't make the most of it's awesome premise. (I wish I could swap a few seasons of Angel for a few more seasons of firefly and Dollhouse)
mortimer | May 04, 16:25 CET
Not to mention Wesley, who is pretty much the greatest character of all time. You know I think I need to visit that poll again... :P
Racoon Boy | May 04, 16:48 CET
But I have to go with Buffy, for exactly the reason that Ifwewait so eloquently put: "...it moved me in a way I didn't know television could."
barboo | May 04, 16:51 CET
Same order, same caveat.
As other people have mentioned, if the later shows stand tall, it is because they stood on the shoulders of Buffy greatness.
OneTeV | May 04, 16:58 CET
Firefly Flanatic | May 04, 17:07 CET
samatwitch | May 04, 17:10 CET
My grades: Buffy = A = best TV show of all time. Angel = A- = my second favorite TV show ever. Dollhouse and Firefly = I (incomplete). And there's a special ring in hell for the Fox executives who cut off Firefly, which would also be available for any Fox executives who decide to cut off Dollhouse.
Maggie | May 04, 17:14 CET
The Operative | May 04, 17:17 CET
kmb99 | May 04, 17:23 CET
One chapter, even if it's a very good chapter, is not a novel. And I don't think one season of a show that was designed to be 7 seasons is actually a series. So Buffy wins.
dingoes8 | May 04, 17:33 CET
But I agree with everyone that if Firefly had been given a chance to grow, my opinion might be different. Alas, this is the world we live in. Perhaps in the world of no shrimp might Firefly had been allowed to grow. Yes, blame the shrimp.
wilder | May 04, 18:07 CET
Haunt | May 04, 18:19 CET
2. Angel
3. Dollhouse
4. Firefly
All four are superior to everything else in every way but Buffy changed my life.
[ edited by cheryl on 2009-05-04 18:19 ]
cheryl | May 04, 18:19 CET
tabmke | May 04, 18:34 CET
So yeah, I think Firefly is better but I can see good arguments why Buffy is greater.
Also, that picture makes Joss look like a doll programmed with Angel's personality.
BananaSandwichMan | May 04, 18:40 CET
I love Firefly but I think that the scarcity/value calculation actually operates the other way around here. Because there are so few episodes, fans cherish every single one--regardless of their individual merits.
Buffy and Angel fans can afford to pick and choose. We can wave away episodes that would be the crowning glory of most TV shows as mere "filler" because we've got handfuls of truly breathtaking episodes to populate our "top ten" lists with. The fact is that Firefly, though wonderful, is very uneven. Sure, "Serenity," "Out of Gas," and "Objects in Space" are up there with the greatest of all Whedon shows. But "The Train Job"? "Shindig"? "The Message"? "Heart of Gold"? They all have great moments in them (hey, what Whedon-show episode doesn't?) and crucial bits and pieces of Firefly mythology--but they're not stellar episodes taken in the whole. Both the Train Job and Heart of Gold, for example, rely too heavily on genre cliches without really putting enough pressure on them. "The Message" just doesn't make sense as a plot when you stop to think for 2 seconds.
I'd say that Buffy S2 and S3 both have a higher strike-rate of hits to misses than Firefly S1 (incomplete) has. Firefly is certainly the best 1st half-season of any Whedon show, but that's not really what's at issue.
snot monster from outer space | May 04, 19:03 CET
Sly | May 04, 19:05 CET
Pointy | May 04, 19:28 CET
Firefly is the show that hit it out of the park from episode one. The characters are as close to my heart as those from Buffy and Angel. Which is quite a feat after only half a season. So in the end, for me, it's pretty hard to distinguish between those three and I only voted for Buffy because it ran the longest and it was my first love.
Dollhouse, to me, clearly comes in fourth, because of the rocky start and because, while I find the show completely convincing and engaging, it's engaging my mind like almost nothing else on television, but it's not engaging my heart as much as those other shows. I've grown to really like all the characters, want the show to continue and it has probably become my favorite show on television right now, but I still don't love it as much as Whedon's other shows. Me, I want my mixing of genres, laughing one moment, crying the next, and getting my heart torn out because of what is happening to all these characters that I love.
In Dollhouse, there's no such character to pull me in, whereas I had many in those other shows. Sure, I care what happens to all of them, and I'd argue with anyone who says that the show fails to provide engaging characters. In fact, I care more for these characters - despite their lack of morals and their greyness, etcetera - than many of the clear-cut heroes on other shows, which is a testament to the writing chops of Joss and co. But when compared to Mal, or River, or Wash, or Xander, or Willow, or Giles, or Buffy... it's just no contest. I loved those characters, while I'm intrigued by Topher, Adelle, Boyd, Ballard, Mellie, Echo, Victor, Sierra, etcetera, but don't love them quite as much just yet. They're not as likeable - apart from maybe the Dolls (who didn't want to give Victor a firm cuddle when he was distressed that they were fighting on top of him), but with them we're not even sure they're complete persons to begin with - and that keeps the show at arm's length emotionally, when compared to the heights that Joss' other shows reached, emotionally, even if what happens sometimes does move me.
What keeps me coming back in Dollhouse's case, is the themes, the layers and the new ways of storytelling. That Ballard versus Boyd fight, where one doesn't know who the hell to root for, is something one wouldn't get in many other shows (with the possible exception of something like 'The Shield').
So while the last part of the season is probably equal to much of the best of the other Joss shows, I'm just not as in love with it. I really, really, like it, like I've really liked all the other memorable shows out there and am even a little bit more atatched to it than usual, because of this fandom. But in the end I'm naturally attracted to shows with found families, complex characters, complex storytelling, genre-mixing and briliant dialogue (which is why I'm also a big 'The West Wing' fan), and Dollhouse doesn't deliver on all of these personal preferences. Which is fair enough, but makes it less special to me.
So while I'd probably rate it as the lesser of the shows even without personal preferences, because Dollhouse has only been great since episode 6, those preferences firmly lock it in fourth place, despite it being very, very good. But who knows: maybe a second season and even more time to get used to these characters, would change that.
(heh, I love how more efficient Pointy's reply there was, when compared to mine which is much too long as per usual ;))
GVH | May 04, 19:39 CET
angry_puppy | May 04, 19:52 CET
rehabber | May 04, 20:03 CET
moley75 | May 04, 20:05 CET
Intrepid Reporter | May 04, 20:35 CET
Why?
At its core, it is a classic, American literary masterpiece presented in the form of a tv show. With cool things like spaceships.
brinderwalt | May 04, 21:07 CET
Sly | May 04, 21:32 CET
Dollhouse is great but really doesn't compare on most levels with the other 3 yet. Unfortunately I don't think that will change even with another several seasons, but who knows.
ChromeShark | May 04, 21:49 CET
[ edited by tabmke on 2009-05-04 22:17 ]
tabmke | May 04, 22:17 CET
jnr616 | May 04, 22:53 CET
sister | May 04, 22:54 CET
silent knight | May 04, 23:25 CET
What can I say? I love vampires.
redeem147 | May 04, 23:26 CET
Firefly: everything about this show is perfect. The characters are hilarious, lovable, and deep. The settings are interesting. The western and Chinese mix is terrific.
Angel: Wesley. Need I say more?
Buffy: Wow, Buffy. This was the original. I was watching this show on the WB in second grade. It will forever be my favorite television show. Season two still makes me cry manly tears.
Dollhouse: The show itself aside, I think DH will have a special place in my heart as the return of Joss to TV after I had realized what a genius he was (I admit, I took Buffy and Angel for granted while they were on the air; Firefly I only caught on DVD). The build-up to this show was insane. It was announced on my 18th birthday, and I spent the entire next day drawing "DOLLHOUSE" and "ECHO" (the only actual info we had on the show) in my US History textbook. As if it were a girl I had a crush on.
So it's hard for me to be objective here. But if I had to say... Buffy would be my favorite. Angel would be the best. That show reinvented itself like no other, and while not all reiterations were equally great, they were all wonderful to some degree, at least.
Jobo | May 04, 23:34 CET
Firefly or Buffy?
Buffy or Firefly?
Firefly or Buffy?
Buffy or Firefly?!
Firefly or Buffy?!?
Oww…my brain hurts…
boatierra | May 05, 10:49 CET
I'm sorry, you were going to ask me to choose, right? Did you want to finish?
ailiel | May 05, 10:53 CET
I love all of Joss's brain children, but Angel is my least favorite. Partly because Angel and Coedelia are my least favorite jossverse characters, and I'm not a fan of either DB or CC as actors. One perfect character (Welsey) and a handful of near perfect eps, does not a perfect series make.
Firefly is technical perfection, but it seldom grabbed me emotionally, until Serenity.
Dollhouse is a baby but I think given a chance, it could become #2 on my list. Once Joss unleashed the layers of jaw-dropping darkness and complexity that should have been much more in evidence from the first ep (thanks for nothing, Fox execs), I have been mesmerized.
Shey | May 05, 11:00 CET
Dollhouse, while I'm really enjoying it (the last episode just rocked, didn't it?!), I don't think it will ever be one of my favourites. It just misses that usual Whedon charm for me, and seems to be Joss's 'dark' at its best, without the 'light' to keep it all in balance - the thing that made me love all his previous shows to bits. That being said, I hope I'm proven wrong with the next season (which will happen. It has to!).
thrillingheroics | May 05, 12:27 CET
treenie | May 05, 12:58 CET
treenie | May 05, 13:05 CET
Shey | May 05, 13:34 CET
I was driving on the freeway and someone waved and cheered, it was a minute before I realized they were responding to my license plate cover "Wash is my Co-pilot".
embers | May 05, 15:31 CET
treenie | May 06, 13:20 CET
InevitableTraitor | May 06, 16:44 CET
Shey | May 06, 20:24 CET
treenie | May 13, 11:15 CET