May 12 2009
"Dollhouse fans shouldn't lose hope".
So says James Hibberd's sources. "[D]espite the show's recent ratings, the show is still alive. Whedon pitched the network on his vision for season two late last week. Discussions have commenced between Fox and the studio about how to make the show work financially."
This thread has been closed for new comments.
You need to log in to be able to post comments.
About membership.
jkalderash | May 12, 17:28 CET
Squishy | May 12, 17:28 CET
Daburcor | May 12, 17:30 CET
At this point, it might be worthwhile making your urging via the phone number if you can. While snail mail is frequently seen as more "real" than email, a phone message at least is clearly a real person.
@theonetruebix | May 12, 17:31 CET
gchucky | May 12, 17:35 CET
Squishy | May 12, 17:37 CET
Maybe I'll give them a ring tomorrow.
CrazyKidBen | May 12, 17:38 CET
Anyway, if what they're writing is true, I'm beginning to feel a lot more optimistic about Dollhouse's chances for a second season (which, because the universe revolves around me, is probably also the precise point in that that Fox' executives decide to definitively can it ;)).
Also: ouh, Shawn Ryan taking over 'Lie to Me'. Haven't watched the show, but will now. I've loved every single bit of 'The Shield' I have seen (am watching the fifth season on DVD now) and am also pretty much in love with 'The Unit', despite disagreeing with almost all of its politics. So, 'Lie to Me', any good? :)
As for mailing executives: that's probably pretty useless for us international viewers, right? I guess I'll just stick to pre-ordering that DVD.
GVH | May 12, 17:45 CET
I know about Human Target, but are there any others?
brinderwalt | May 12, 18:17 CET
Monday is not arriving fast enough.
Septimus | May 12, 18:20 CET
Tycho | May 12, 18:27 CET
Linnea1928 | May 12, 18:32 CET
The first is an entirely legitimate way to try to judge what shows are dead; but if the actual parties aren't limiting themselves to automatically using ratings and ratings alone, then the second kind of trumps the first.
That doesn't mean "talks" inevitably leads to "renewal". But if the network and the studio aren't simply going "ack, the ratings, forget it", then the articles focusing only on the ratings don't make much sense at the moment.
@theonetruebix | May 12, 18:37 CET
RavenU | May 12, 18:40 CET
Desertpuma | May 12, 18:42 CET
krindy | May 12, 18:43 CET
@theonetruebix | May 12, 18:45 CET
Jes | May 12, 19:03 CET
zeitgeist | May 12, 19:14 CET
Jes | May 12, 19:19 CET
[ edited by The One True b!X on 2009-05-13 04:29 ]
@theonetruebix | May 12, 19:29 CET
dottikin | May 12, 19:29 CET
Squishy | May 12, 20:00 CET
newcj | May 12, 20:01 CET
nyrk | May 12, 20:09 CET
ETA: nyrk, maybe that just means he's done filming Leverage?
[ edited by jkalderash on 2009-05-13 05:13 ]
jkalderash | May 12, 20:11 CET
Fox currently has 2.5 hours of cancelled/not returning shows from the past year (see list A below), as well as another 2.5 hours of shows in danger due to low ratings (see list B below). Fox has apparently picked up 3 hours of new programming so far (see list C below).
Now. Assuming the amount of time allotted for scripted programming this fall on Fox is the same as last year (an over-simplification I'm sure), Fox has already filled the space vacated by its cancelled/not returning shows as well as 1/2 hour of its shows classified as being in danger (translate: Sit Down, Shut Up). This would further indicate that the only Fox shows whose futures are truly in question at this point are Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles and Dollhouse, of which Dollhouse has a very slight statistical edge (going purely by numbers).
What does this mean? Essentially, if Fox picks up another hour of programming it's meant to replace Terminator, and if they go for an additional hour after that it's to replace Dollhouse.
So keep your eyes open for more new shows being picked up by Fox.
List A: cancelled/not returning shows (2.5 hours)
King of the Hill (1/2 hour)
Prison Break (1 hour)
Do Not Disturb (1 hour)
List B: shows in danger, safest first (2.5 hours)
Dollhouse (1 hour)
Sit Down, Shut Up (1/2 hour)
Terminator: TSCC (1 hour)
List C: New shows picked up by Fox (3 hours)
Human Target (1 hour)
Sons of Tucson (1/2 hour)
Cleveland (1/2 hour)
Glee (1 hour)
Update: Do Not Disturb is actually 1/2 hour as pointed out below. I would still say watch out for any additional new shows being picked up.
[ edited by brinderwalt on 2009-05-13 05:52 ]
brinderwalt | May 12, 20:23 CET
IrrationaliTV | May 12, 20:35 CET
Also, I believe Sit Down Shut Up is essentially a non-factor at this point.
krindy | May 12, 20:39 CET
(1) Sunday night will be a block of animations, so we can pretty much ignore this night:
Simpsons
Family Guy
The Cleveland Show
American Dad
(2) Shows officially renewed for the fall include:
Fringe
Hell's Kitchen
Lie to Me
possibly Til Death (I think I read somewhere this might not be on the fall schedule)
(3) Shows presumably returning for the fall:
House
Bones
(4) New shows:
Human Target
Glee
Sons of Tucson
Assume there are 10 hours of programming, not including Sundays. Then we have 8 hours taken so far (7.5 is Til Death doesn't come back in the fall). That leaves two hours, one of which could potentially go to Dollhouse (and I assume they'll pick up one more show or possibly bring back some reality show like Don't Forget the Lyrics).
There's also the ever-pressing question of what two shows will end up on Fridays. I think we can all agree that Dollhouse would probably do better on another night, but then which show should be there instead?
jkalderash | May 12, 20:42 CET
Is it sadder that I used wordpad?
brinderwalt | May 12, 20:49 CET
gossi | May 12, 20:50 CET
spiralout9 | May 12, 20:52 CET
dottikin | May 12, 20:56 CET
[ edited by brinderwalt on 2009-05-13 05:59 ]
brinderwalt | May 12, 20:58 CET
IrrationaliTV | May 12, 21:02 CET
That is assuming some of us aren't crazy already.
Besides. I am actually enjoying this!
And, believe it or not, this is way less stressful than what I do for a living.
brinderwalt | May 12, 21:09 CET
Logic? I don't think I know this word...
sumogrip | May 12, 21:16 CET
Ivalaine | May 12, 21:18 CET
IrrationaliTV | May 12, 21:33 CET
brinderwalt | May 12, 21:37 CET
brinderwalt | May 12, 21:43 CET
@theonetruebix | May 12, 21:44 CET
brinderwalt | May 12, 21:49 CET
Harmalicious | May 12, 21:51 CET
@theonetruebix | May 12, 21:51 CET
brinderwalt | May 12, 22:03 CET
spiralout9 | May 12, 22:06 CET
@theonetruebix | May 12, 22:06 CET
brinderwalt | May 12, 22:07 CET
Seeing as Shawn Ryan is now the new show-runner for this show, we can now officially say that former Mutant Enemy staff have taken over all of Fox's shows. Probably.
Simon | May 12, 22:23 CET
Now I'm feeling like it has to come back with all of the stuff going around the last couple of days. I feel like might just be some elaborate practical joke to make this the most stressful week ever.
BigVessXpress | May 12, 22:26 CET
Does that help?
crazygolfa | May 12, 22:44 CET
It's kinda weird to see creators/showrunners who've really made it on cable (like Ryan with The Shield), after already seeemingly graduating from network TV, return to network TV after having that kind of creative freedom, but I understand they go where the money and opportunities are. And maybe sometimes have ideas that fit pretty well within network constraints.
Ryan Murphy (from Nip/Tuck to Glee) is another recent example and Tom Fontana (from HBO's Oz to various short-lived crime and law dramas) is an older one. There are probably more.
Kris | May 12, 23:12 CET
*me curls up in chair.
Krusher | May 13, 00:24 CET
ETA One more of his comments:
[ edited by wiesengrund on 2009-05-13 11:10 ]
wiesengrund | May 13, 02:07 CET
Ameer | May 13, 02:13 CET
Pretty_Hate_Machine | May 13, 02:20 CET
One can dream ;)
ShanshuBugaboo | May 13, 02:20 CET
(Edited to say episode 13 rather than 3. I'm not sure anyone wants a spin-off about angsty pop-stars)
[ edited by Let Down on 2009-05-13 11:32 ]
Let Down | May 13, 02:26 CET
But Ripper .... I hope that Joss remembers that one day
Let Down | May 13, 02:27 CET
redeem147 | May 13, 03:35 CET
Ashley | May 13, 03:55 CET
RE: "Lie To Me" I've watched the whole season and really enjoy the show. Everyone in the main cast is excellent, and Tim Roth makes the show. His character is "unlikable" and "likable" (reminds me a bit of the House character in that way). Looking forward to see what happens with Shawn Ryan involved.
Passion | May 13, 04:04 CET
Ameer | May 13, 04:15 CET
ETA: that said, cutting 9 episodes out of any Buffy or Angel season would be hard (maybe Angel season 1 wouldn't be so tough :) )
[ edited by Let Down on 2009-05-13 13:26 ]
Let Down | May 13, 04:22 CET
J.I.G. | May 13, 04:25 CET
Darkness | May 13, 04:34 CET
Ivalaine | May 13, 04:36 CET
Truth be told I didn't hate either episode first time through. Beer Bad is still okay but watching Bad Eggs a second time is pretty painful
Let Down | May 13, 04:42 CET
"Alright, Willow said something. Uh, a name. What was it?"
"A bozo! Not a bozo."
"A bezoar."
"That's it! Okay, so now...we look it up?"
"In what?"
"A book?"
And the Buffy getting swallowed but killing the bezoar and crawling out all covered in gunk and then giving Lyle the "Go ahead and try and mess with me" badass slayer stare. To which he replies, after having cliche-y remarked that it wasn't over between them, "Okay, it's over."
But before that, her and Lyle working together. I always like it when good guys and bad guys team up. Then there was Xander hard-boiling his egg and everyone's reactions to that. And Buffy naming her egg, "Eggbert."
Lots of things to love about that episode.
[ edited by pat32082 on 2009-05-13 13:55 ]
pat32082 | May 13, 04:51 CET
Maybe if they did Fray, the animated series :-)
narse | May 13, 04:52 CET
Dana5140 | May 13, 04:54 CET
Because, I'm sorry, I have no interest in watching a Season 2 if it is changed from the path Season 1 ended on, in order to make it more accessible. If they change the mood, or the characters, or the moral ambiguity, it will cease to be Dollhouse as I've come to know it.
[ edited by pat32082 on 2009-05-13 14:02 ]
pat32082 | May 13, 04:58 CET
I also see no way of Dollhouse getting a full order. Only Fringe, a demo hit with House and AI, got one, Lie to Me only got a 13 episode pickup. Dollhouse won't do better than Lie to Me, I guess.
But hell if I know, they will probably look to stabilize the Friday for years to come and give them the Friday 9pm slot for 2 full more seasons. You heard it here first.
Well, if they're looking to have input creatively, then they haven't learned their lesson from the majority reaction to the first five episodes.
Again, looking at the ratings, that statement just doesn't add up. The allegedly Foxy First Five did way better audience wise than the fan-favorites in the second half of the season. There will always be creative input, and there will always be good and bad creative input from networks.
wiesengrund | May 13, 05:02 CET
pat32082 | May 13, 05:04 CET
I seriously hope Friday's ratings did not kill the momentum from Joss's pitch.
Squishy | May 13, 05:13 CET
As for the rest of the discussion: I'm taking the pitches as a positive thing. But, man, I want the reveal already. Waiting on the news is becoming more and more difficult now that the reveal-date is nearing.
GVH | May 13, 05:25 CET
zee | May 13, 05:29 CET
swanjun | May 13, 05:31 CET
If you look at the final viewer demo numbers for Dollhouse, it started at its strongest, fell some before rising to its post-premiere peak at episode 6, then fell consistently there after. No cigar.
brinderwalt | May 13, 05:35 CET
More imporartantly, I think Beer Bad was a fair bit better than Bad Eggs which was quite dire (apart from Xander hardboiling his egg). Bad Eggs had the characters way out of character (Joyce going back to season 1 mode with her harshness on Buffy which is especially jarring given how she's basically a different person in Surprise / Innocence). And Beer Bad, unlike Bad Eggs, had some really great scenes (eg. Willow pretending to fall for Parker's lines)
Random season 4 comment: does anyone else think that the minor chracters they introduced in season 4 (Parker and Professor Walsh) were great but the major new characters (Riley and Tara) kinda sucked? Probably not wise to criticise Tara but what the hey
[ edited by Let Down on 2009-05-13 14:45 ]
Let Down | May 13, 05:38 CET
And look! I am not taking the bait! :-)
Dana5140 | May 13, 05:49 CET
pat32082 | May 13, 05:58 CET
gossi | May 13, 06:07 CET
pat32082, I think what you really mean is if they "mess with the continuity of the show", since we are technically unable to make judgments about where Joss originally planned to take the show.
brinderwalt | May 13, 06:09 CET
pat32082 | May 13, 06:10 CET
But..
If they say "Joss, we want you, and your fans.. but not this show. We want a Buffy show. Or Faith. Or Ripper. Or Book (yeah.. a BOOK prequel would be awesome.)"
I would mourn the loss of Echo, and welcome my fave verses back.
Nightshot | May 13, 06:12 CET
JMaloney | May 13, 06:15 CET
Blink hard.
[ edited by pat32082 on 2009-05-13 15:18 ]
pat32082 | May 13, 06:15 CET
Cryptic, gossi... did you hear something more?
[ edited by flugufrelsarinn on 2009-05-13 15:16 ]
flugufrelsarinn | May 13, 06:16 CET
[ edited by brinderwalt on 2009-05-13 15:19 ]
brinderwalt | May 13, 06:18 CET
So that's good news, right?
Seems like a great pairing.
J.I.G. | May 13, 06:19 CET
But, I would not be upset with something of a re-boot for Dollhouse, either. The best aspects of Dollhouse are its premise/idea and the cast. If they keep those and tweak some of the other stuff (episode format, plot arcs, etc.), I'd probably be okay with it. I would welcome more of an ensemble focus and fewer standalone episodes, for instance. (But, I am not an anti-standalone purist, either. I like big arc-y character-developing stories as much as the next Whedon fan, but my absolute favorite episodes from most shows tend to be standalones -- this is partly true of Buffy, though even the standalones tend to do a lot for character development in Buffy, and really true of other shows like, say, the X-Files.)
So, yeah, a little creative re-booting may be in order for s2, and I wouldn't mind it and might even welcome it. (If it's what it takes to get a second season, I totally welcome it.)
Edit on Preview: Oh sure, gossi, write a four-word comment while I'm writing this long-ass one, that totally overshadows whatever I had to say... fine! (So, since I cna't help but take the bait, what does "lookin' good" mean?)
Septimus | May 13, 06:20 CET
So that's good news, right?
Seems like a great pairing.
Old news (relatively speaking).
[ edited by brinderwalt on 2009-05-13 15:23 ]
brinderwalt | May 13, 06:20 CET
I’ll take off my tin-foil hat now.
Eric_Curtis | May 13, 06:25 CET
swanjun | May 13, 06:27 CET
Negative, conspiracy theorist spin on what you just said.
Don't believe it myself, but you never know. ;}
[ edited by brinderwalt on 2009-05-13 15:34 ]
brinderwalt | May 13, 06:30 CET
Progressive_Stupidity | May 13, 06:40 CET
flugufrelsarinn | May 13, 06:48 CET
cutting 9 episodes out of any Buffy or Angel season would be hard (maybe Angel season 1 wouldn't be so tough :)
Not to be touching my beloved Angel season one, please. You can have season four. :)
redeem147 | May 13, 06:49 CET
Key phrase: new business model. This is the ultimate solution in my mind to the prevailing trends in the tv business at large: A transition to a new, essentially internet-oriented business model. Unfortunately, any shows made during the experimental phase will have virtually no chance of surviving in the long run, since that's where all the mistakes that will contribute constructively to the final model will be made.
brinderwalt | May 13, 07:02 CET
I'm just excited to see what leaks today! Monday it was GlobalTV, Tuesday it was pitches and negotiations... who knows what could happen!
jkalderash | May 13, 07:03 CET
buffywrestling | May 13, 07:12 CET
I don't think anybody will say anything public which could risk screwing things up; all I say is, well, cross yer pinkies.
gossi | May 13, 07:27 CET
Léo | May 13, 07:28 CET
sumogrip | May 13, 07:33 CET
I really hope that something good comes out of these pitches. Whether it's a slightly different Dollhouse (more ensemble, less client-of-the week, please!) or something new entirely, or perhaps a move to new media format, I will watch whatever Joss creates. Here's hoping Fox gives him that chance.
By the way, this does feel very opposite to Firefly, it seems like Fox is actually trying to find ways for Joss's show to succeed. Imagine that!
AnotherFireflyfan | May 13, 07:59 CET
zeitgeist | May 13, 08:14 CET
ThorpeWithoutShrimp | May 13, 08:18 CET
(Hey, True believers could be a good fandom name too.)
AnotherFireflyfan | May 13, 08:21 CET
@theonetruebix | May 13, 08:22 CET
I would have loved to have seen Echo talking to Ballard, Boyd and Adelle after escaping from Alpha but before she was wiped. She was then self aware, she knew she was a doll and that her brain was on a hard drive.
Did Boyd and Adelle just shove her back in the chair and wipe everything like she was just an imprint? Or did they acknowledge she was an individual and ask her if she was happy to do so?
I'd love to see a flashback of that.
It could, if needed, set the stage for a self aware Doll, one that agrees to go on missions, one that's part of the team but still leaving room for plenty of twists and questions.
Maybe Joss pitched two versions of S2, one with Echo still slowly becoming self aware and one with her quickly becoming an individual, ones the fans can identify with?
zz9 | May 13, 08:24 CET
Sunfire | May 13, 08:27 CET
At the moment Dollhouse s2 is what I want above all (so much more to tell, and post apocalyptic spin-offs and Amy Acker as a doll make my brain explode). An Angel movie would be a close second, followed by Serenity 2 (let's face it, a second season of Firefly isn't likely). And while I'd love a Buffy movie, the show had pretty much gone everywhere it could, so I'm happy with what's already out there.
This is despite Buffy being my favourite Whedon show (favourite show, actually), followed by Firefly, Angel and Dollhouse in that order.
ThorpeWithoutShrimp | May 13, 08:28 CET
@theonetruebix | May 13, 08:29 CET
wiesengrund | May 13, 08:31 CET
[ edited by brinderwalt on 2009-05-13 17:34 ]
brinderwalt | May 13, 08:33 CET
[ edited by The One True b!X on 2009-05-13 17:39 ]
@theonetruebix | May 13, 08:38 CET
I'm both
[ edited by mortimer on 2009-05-13 17:44 ]
mortimer | May 13, 08:43 CET
I'm hoping this all shakes out well, 'cos Monday should be interesting. Fox should stay in TV business with joss. If it's with DH, it needs tweaking creatively. It also needs Fox to step up and stamp out all the negative buzz if they reboot the show.
My belief? Purely personal. Do 8 more DH episodes for fall. Then spin it off to an entirely new show in the same universw with the same cast, about taking down the organisation behind it.
gossi | May 13, 08:46 CET
There is nothing wrong with the show creatively. I can identify with the characters/situations without any problem. I can especially identify with the whole idea of a modern woman having to be multiple imprints/personalities depending on surroundings, company and situation. Spot on Joss!
IrrationaliTV | May 13, 08:55 CET
Ask me later how I would like to be misrepresented.
@theonetruebix | May 13, 08:59 CET
edit:
This came out seeming alot more obvious and less insiteful than I thought it would... I think I need to go to sleep
[ edited by mortimer on 2009-05-13 18:07 ]
[ edited by mortimer on 2009-05-13 18:08 ]
mortimer | May 13, 09:03 CET
John T. Folden | May 13, 09:07 CET
Joss has spoken about the difference between what we need and what we want. Perhaps some people don't "want" Echo to have a constant personality but they do actually "Need" it?
Clearly fans have less trouble with this than many non fans but I don't think it's exclusive. You can be a fan and have certain reservations and no one expects ever fan to think the show is 100% perfect.
zz9 | May 13, 09:10 CET
wiesengrund | May 13, 09:13 CET
ETA: this was in response to zz9. I like what wiesengrund just posted.
[ edited by Sunfire on 2009-05-13 18:14 ]
Sunfire | May 13, 09:13 CET
I've seen that show. It was called, I think, "Angel Investigations versus Wolfram & Hart" or something.
@theonetruebix | May 13, 09:19 CET
Change can be good. Have some faith.
gossi | May 13, 09:20 CET
Well, some of my biggest Buffy fan friends find Buffy herself to be the least relatable character for them. Some people need characters that they like, some like picking through the mess to find a glimpse of something positive in a character, some like to watch no-goodniks getting away with being no good until it catches up to them.
zeitgeist | May 13, 09:21 CET
@theonetruebix | May 13, 09:21 CET
zeitgeist | May 13, 09:23 CET
We already have a different direction to continue off from, and I'd personally love to see where things go from here!
AnotherFireflyfan | May 13, 09:25 CET
brinderwalt | May 13, 09:26 CET
They should certainly rethink how they're getting at these elements, because the unevenness is a definite problem. But a show where we have some clearly good guys who take down the House is not this show.
Sunfire | May 13, 09:26 CET
I've seen that show. It was called, I think, "Angel Investigations versus Wolfram & Hart" or something.
Hahahaha
mortimer | May 13, 09:29 CET
wiesengrund | May 13, 09:30 CET
gossi | May 13, 09:30 CET
Sunfire | May 13, 09:32 CET
... or not yet, at least. I think it is within the scope of the show's basic premise for that to not only occur, but to have been the intended end-result from the get-go (say, after five years of plot development).
[ edited by brinderwalt on 2009-05-13 18:38 ]
brinderwalt | May 13, 09:37 CET
bubblecat | May 13, 09:37 CET
I'm with Sunfire. Obviously I wouldn't prejudge because even ordinary stories can be done in good ways... but what I especially love about this story are the elements that are unique and challenging. The part of me that is all bouncy with excitement because there's hope the show can continue is *completely* tied up with the uniqueness of the show. And yes, shaking up the audience's complacency is not obviously compatible with the need to attract a large audience. It's just been so cool to see it tried. One more season with the fixable things fixed; sink or swim. That's what I'd really like to happen here.
Maggie | May 13, 09:44 CET
filops | May 13, 09:51 CET
"There ya go, Topher! Her mind is as good as new! None of those nasty thoughts cluttering it up anymore!"
"Thanks, Printy!"
sumogrip | May 13, 09:53 CET
@theonetruebix | May 13, 09:56 CET
mortimer | May 13, 09:58 CET
brinderwalt | May 13, 09:58 CET
ETA: Yes, this originally said "pointy" instead.
[ edited by The One True b!X on 2009-05-13 19:05 ]
@theonetruebix | May 13, 09:59 CET
Also, this all sounds more like PeeWee's Playhouse than Dollhouse. (yay Chairy!)
Septimus | May 13, 10:02 CET
sumogrip | May 13, 10:02 CET
UnpluggedCrazy | May 13, 10:03 CET
Pretty_Hate_Machine | May 13, 10:03 CET
@theonetruebix | May 13, 10:04 CET
snakebyte | May 13, 10:04 CET
QingTing | May 13, 10:04 CET
This concept of change is interesting. What, exactly, would represent a change in S2, given we have no idea what Joss intended to happen in it? It seems odd to be arguing about changes that may or may not come when we don't know what the intent has been. But also, in terms of change, I think shows have to change or they lose viewer interest. How long can you keep Gregory House the angry misogynist but correct doctor? Each episode of that show follows the same formula, without change, and that has been the case for 5 seasons now- which is why I think they are losing viewers. Something has to give on that show. Despite the comments to the contrary, the issue of identification is one that does exist with DH; it is not just me saying that but many critics as well, and I full well believe that issue is on the table if talks are indeed occurring- that is, they are asking, what can we do to increase the viewership? I am certain they are not sitting there and saying, well, let's just do S2 without any change because we think this show is great as it is and needs nothing done to get the viewership higher and more profitable. If they are talking, change is integral to the talks, and it would be naive to think otherwise.
[ edited by Dana5140 on 2009-05-13 19:09 ]
Dana5140 | May 13, 10:08 CET
mortimer | May 13, 10:08 CET
I'll probably watch House until the day it ends, but this frustrates me. The show teases every single season finale that some major change is going to happen. Then within a few episodes of the next season, everything's back to normal. Plot elements might be different, but the characters have reverted to their same old relationships. I should really just stop watching House except for the last four episodes of a season and the first two or three of the next.
sumogrip | May 13, 10:12 CET
@theonetruebix | May 13, 10:18 CET
beckyboo | May 13, 10:19 CET
Joss starts with something complex so as to give himself somewhere to take the show, which unfortunately makes his shows harder for alot of people to get into.
In an ideal world House would only get 1 season (since that's all you really need to get the idea of what that show is all about) and Dollhouse would get 5 seasons or more.
[ edited by mortimer on 2009-05-13 19:22 ]
mortimer | May 13, 10:20 CET
sumogrip | May 13, 10:21 CET
ETA: A forumalic episode pattern is different from adhering to it to a point of tedium or making the usual tv mistakes, namely that a couple episodes can contain a powerful arc and that events are the same thing as character development.
[ edited by Sunfire on 2009-05-13 19:25 ]
Sunfire | May 13, 10:23 CET
mortimer | May 13, 10:27 CET
Jes | May 13, 10:28 CET
fanbuoyant | May 13, 10:55 CET
(Hell, in the House season finale last year, which was nearly as emotionally wrenching as Buffy's "The Body," there should have been serious repercussions to what happened, but within 5 episodes of the new year it was as if nothing had happened at all. And the end this time out, which was this week? Meh. And given the show, the implications of that ending means little, since the show is, after all, called "House" and will likely have him be different for a few eps before he returns to exactly what he is all the time.).
[ edited by Dana5140 on 2009-05-13 19:57 ]
[ edited by Dana5140 on 2009-05-13 19:57 ]
Dana5140 | May 13, 10:56 CET
UnpluggedCrazy | May 13, 11:05 CET
To be perfectly frank, Dollhouse didn't become "complex" to me until the very end of episode twelve. I got the premise, moral complexities, character interactions from the first episode. Consequently, the rest of the series has come off as being essentally redundent up until the last 15 minutes of "Omega". As the show currently stands, the only characters whose motivations/courses of action I find compelling on a personal level are Ballard and Whiskey.
brinderwalt | May 13, 11:12 CET
And to tie two aspects of this thread together, I watched a repeat of House last night and Harry Lennix was playing a jazz musician.
[ edited by redeem147 on 2009-05-13 20:16 ]
redeem147 | May 13, 11:14 CET
Formulaic doesn't mean simplistic. Having a formula doesn't mean you just follow it all the time. Buffy played with its formula from day 1, that's what made it special. It used its formula rather than just obey it and become it. House has a tendency to obey its formula except on special occasions. It's a formula made of high-ratings win, so I expect they don't have a ton of incentive to experiment with it heavily outside of season climaxes. They do play within the formula sometimes, which I like a lot. But yeah they're not taking a lot of risks in general. It's the opposite of the evil genius who turns his pop culture horror trope show into a musical just because he can and who likes terrifying his actors.
Dollhouse felt like it started mid-series to me. Both in terms of complexity and in terms of undermining what we think about the people onscreen. I've liked it, but I realize many people haven't. It's been interesting but also maybe a bit of a misstep at times for a new show. They might've been going to some dark places they shouldn't have yet without having earned more of the audience's willingness to go there. It might've been better to have twisted some screws more slowly while still introducing the main ideas of the thing.
Except I think they were going all out in case they got canceled. A slow twist isn't good when you may only have 13 episodes to do it.
Sunfire | May 13, 11:15 CET
If (and that is a very presumptious assumption) change is/was/might be discussed it could have to do with # of cast members, number of writers, filming technology, night of airing, number of episodes, salary cuts, production timing, and about 5 million other things.
This mythical "change" doesn't have to have anything to do with story no matter how much 2 or 3 people wish it would change so that they could like it.
IrrationaliTV | May 13, 11:58 CET
Did you just (re)watch Alias? Sounds very similar to the second season with the taking down of SD-6 mid-season. Although they didn't really change the name of the show or anything - but it was a pretty neat spin and also made the second season of the show my favorite.
RIPWesley | May 13, 12:03 CET
gossi | May 13, 12:22 CET
Yes, QingTing, please do. We need to see this, forthwith and posthaste.
I will work on Printy's Theme Song.
QuoterGal | May 13, 12:24 CET
@theonetruebix | May 13, 12:28 CET
QingTing | May 13, 12:30 CET
Hmmm. I might be looking at your idea from the wrong angle, but that sounds a lot less interesting, both subtextually and, er, regulartextually.
[ edited by UnpluggedCrazy on 2009-05-13 21:35 ]
UnpluggedCrazy | May 13, 12:35 CET
Zannadoo | May 13, 12:39 CET
Sunfire | May 13, 12:41 CET
IrrationaliTV | May 13, 12:45 CET
@theonetruebix | May 13, 12:47 CET
Sunfire | May 13, 12:52 CET
Pretty_Hate_Machine | May 13, 13:11 CET
jcs | May 13, 13:26 CET
gossi | May 13, 14:25 CET
...and Sierra could try to molest it...
doubtful guest | May 13, 14:39 CET
He's Printy, the Imprint Chair
You may like your soul, but he doesn't care.
He can snatch it out, put another there
He's Printy the Imprint Chair.
He's comfy-soft, like a fuzzy bear.
If you lean straight back, he won't muss your hair.
You can take a breath, but you can't prepare
For Printy the Imprint Chair.
He will zap you hard, give your heart a scare.
Then your voice could change, or you'll grow a pair.
He can make you smart; lend you fashion flair.
He's Printy the Imprint Chair.
You'll forget your life - you won't be aware
That your kids are wild and your boss unfair.
When life's tapestry looks all bleak and spare.
Go see Printy the Imprint Chair.
Oh the things he does in his techno-lair
Make you flush with joy or with dark despair.
Think he's always right? Au contraire, mon frère.
'Cause he's Printy the Imprint Chair.
Yes, he makes mistakes - you should buy aware.
When he's done with you, you may need repair.
Still those other seats, they just can't compare
With Printy the Imprint Chair.
When your spouse is cold, like a Frigidaire.
When your heart's in pain from your last affair.
When your sorrow's more than your soul can bear
Think of Printy the Imprint Chair....
Printy the Imprint Chair.
(softly): Printy the Imprint Chair...
(louder now): Printy the Imprint Chair!
(shout it out): Printy the Imprint Chair!!
♫
(And yay! to QingTing - and please note: my hurrying was to express excitement and by no means to suggest that you must rush to do it... ✌)
QuoterGal | May 13, 15:15 CET
and can't wait for the episode where Printy meets Alpha's chair! Oh the scrapes those krazy kids will get up to!..."They're cousins...Identical cousins!"...
doubtful guest | May 13, 15:21 CET
korkster | May 13, 15:25 CET
Sunfire | May 13, 15:26 CET
Septimus | May 13, 15:29 CET
Tin Ear Tom | May 13, 15:44 CET
sumogrip | May 13, 15:51 CET
"We are happy, we are merry.
We got a rhyming dictionary." - Bart, THE SIMPSONS, "Bart the General"
Ya know, if you think about it, what I wrote about "Printy" sorta applies to Joss himself, too.
Maybe Printy is Joss.
QuoterGal | May 13, 15:58 CET
sumogrip | May 13, 16:10 CET
(also, 'Printy the Imprint Chair' should totally be a Dollhouse-centered Whedonfan-generated webcomic)
GVH | May 13, 16:30 CET
Gasp! Sacrilege!
electricspacegirl | May 13, 17:16 CET
embers | May 13, 17:20 CET
Lioness | May 13, 17:27 CET
Going back to the issue of change, I think DH could definitely use some. The first season, IMO, had two major issues: (1) lots of unevenness in quality and tone; and (2) insufficiently accessible, relatable characters (which was particularly a problem with the main character, Echo).
The first problem, I think, was due mainly to Fox's creative mandate for standalones in the first five episodes. This made the first five eps "less good" than I suspect they otherwise would have been, but I think it also impacted the other eps because it undoubtedly threw off the timing of the larger arc Joss originally had planned. As a result, a lot of stuff seemed rushed IMO, even in the more awesome later episodes. It sometimes felt like there were too many plot twists and character developments coming too quickly, without sufficient time to explore them. The lesson? Let Joss do his long, arcy stories. Don't mess with the narrative.
The second problem, I think, is probably a conceptual issue with the show's premise, and one which I don't think can be blamed on Fox. I'm not sure how this gets addressed without actually making some changes to the underlying premise, perhaps along the lines of what gossi and Dana have mentioned (e.g., make it more an ensemble show, have a more clear distinction between pro- and ant-agonists, etc.). If Joss and Fox are talking about doing stuff like that, I think that is very good news. In fact, I don't think the show could survive without taking a hard look at this issue and seeing what can be done to address it.
Of course, as I've tried to emphasize, all the above is IMO, and I don't pretend to know more about this stuff than the writers or producers. But I do think that the show has some issues that need to be addressed if it is ever going to compare favorably to other Mutant Enemy shows.
[ edited by Squishy on 2009-05-14 04:02 ]
Squishy | May 13, 19:00 CET
Clearly, it is at least possible, since so many of us are not having the identification problem. Maybe there's a way for the writers to more clearly enunciate whatever it is some of us are picking up on within the existing show that allows us to not have the identification problem?
@theonetruebix | May 13, 19:32 CET
doubtful guest | May 13, 20:06 CET
Formulaic doesn't mean simplistic. Having a formula doesn't mean you just follow it all the time. Buffy played with its formula from day 1, that's what made it special. It used its formula rather than just obey it and become it. House has a tendency to obey its formula except on special occasions. It's a formula made of high-ratings win, so I expect they don't have a ton of incentive to experiment with it heavily outside of season climaxes. They do play within the formula sometimes, which I like a lot. But yeah they're not taking a lot of risks in general. It's the opposite of the evil genius who turns his pop culture horror trope show into a musical just because he can and who likes terrifying his actors.
Dollhouse felt like it started mid-series to me. Both in terms of complexity and in terms of undermining what we think about the people onscreen. I've liked it, but I realize many people haven't. It's been interesting but also maybe a bit of a misstep at times for a new show. They might've been going to some dark places they shouldn't have yet without having earned more of the audience's willingness to go there. It might've been better to have twisted some screws more slowly while still introducing the main ideas of the thing.
Except I think they were going all out in case they got canceled. A slow twist isn't good when you may only have 13 episodes to do it.
I would say that by "playing with it's formula" buffy became not formulaic... plus Joss Whedon had different formula's for episodes that he followed.
For me, formulaic tv means that it always follows the same structure (ie: with House: somebody gets an illness, House attempts to solve the mystery of what the illness is while pissing people off and quipping one liners).
I don't really know why you're arguing with me about this. Of course every show had formulas for episodes, but that doesn't make every show on tv "formulaic", since shows like buffy mix and change their formula regularly.
mortimer | May 13, 20:11 CET
Let Down | May 13, 20:12 CET
helcat | May 13, 20:27 CET
doubtful guest | May 13, 20:36 CET
Let Down | May 13, 20:42 CET
helcat | May 13, 20:56 CET
jcs | May 13, 21:45 CET
@theonetruebix | May 13, 23:07 CET
Oh. My. Joss.
I cannot even begin to believe that I live on the same planet as someone who is not 100% unconditionally in love with Tara!
Ok, now that I think about it, there's only one possible explanation: you are confusing Tara with someone else. Yeah, that's it.
Tara is this beautiful woman (sugary music video on YouTube).
Lino | May 13, 23:40 CET
mortimer | May 14, 09:42 CET