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May 30 2009

Firefly: Would FOX or NBC Be Willing To Bring It Back? TV by the Numbers looks at the possibility of more Firefly.

Now that Dollhouse has been renewed, is this a sign that Fox realizes they made a mistake with Firefly, and could they possibly bring it back?

Not ever gonna happen.

*sits back and watches the inevitable firestorm that this is going to cause.*

Anyone wanna beer? I got about two dozen in the cooler?

[ edited by crazygolfa on 2009-05-30 04:59 ]
Must...not...get hopes...up...!

crazygolfa, I'd love one.
I'm getting off this emotional roller coaster of a ride before it starts. Wake me up when there is something tangible on my tv/computer/movie theater screen.
Now that Dollhouse has been renewed, is this a sign that Fox realizes they made a mistake with Firefly, and could they possibly bring it back?


No, its a sign that speculative articles about Joss get lots of pageviews.

ETA - you're gonna be sleeping a long time, Chewy!

[ edited by zeitgeist on 2009-05-30 05:05 ]
I am seriously drunk enough right now that I am willing to hope for this to happen. But I will still wait for Mr. Purple Prose to come here and tell me this himself.
I dreamed a dream in time gone byyy...
Would be very surprised to ever see a series with the same actors again and a sequel film is possible but has slim chances, so...just like back in November, December-ish 2005, not gonna hold my breath for more of the story beyond the comics.
I don't think it's impossible. Let's see how Dollhouse does for FOX. I'm sure if there's any chance of it happening Joss will do what he can to make it happen. Still, all in all I think it's very unlikely
Stop it. Just stop it.

It's not nice to tease people like this. Really.

[ edited by Ifwewait on 2009-05-30 05:21 ]
Can I please have some of what you are smoking?
I think it's fair to say Dollhouse got browncoated.
Yeah, this is just sad. Trying to get page views, and what not. And going by the fact that people brought up fake Buffy movie news, then, um, not Joss people are making it, well lets not jinx things, shall we?

It ain't gonna happen. If there won't be a movie, which Joss has said, there won't be a show. Plus, some of the actors are kinda busy you know.
Yeah when a lot of the main stars are now.. main stars on other television shows, it pretty much tells anyone Firefly couldn't come back. Let it rest people. The movie idea wouldn’t be terrible and they could probably get Fillion and Baldwin to come back for that but a series renewal? C’mon.
AHHHHHHHHHHH! He makes it sound so plausible! God, I thought I'd gradually gotten rid of all my hopes and dreams, but now this guy comes and starts it all up again. Crap. This is very rude.
Honestly, its so unlikely that I was tempted to just delete this. I love the Firefly 'verse as much as anyone -saw the movie half a dozen times (legally) before it got to general release, own multiple copies of the DVD and one of the BD of the series and DVDs (and 1 BD) of Serenity from 3 different regions in special packaging with different features, but I just don't see this happening. If I hear anything plausible, you can bet I'll be talking about it nonstop here, but this is just speculation, sorry people.
Fillion finally has another show that lasts more than one season and they're wondering if Firefly could make a comeback?

No. Bare minimum, the actors need to be free to do a regular series.
Now if we're talking about a MOVIE sequel, or maybe some kind of small mini-series... that doesn't sound as far fetched, but it's still likely no in any case.
I hate to be pessimistic - but what are the odds that Chuck, Dollhouse, V and Castle will get renewed in 2010? 1 out of 4? Maybe availability isn't that big of an issue...
I would do backflips if I thought this was possible and I am 40 and way to old to contemplate backflips. Universal owns the rights. Mary Parent is at MGM. NBC Uni is full of some of the biggest morons whoever made TV or Movie decisions. How exactly is this supposed to work?

Five years from now it might be a different story. I am guessing that if Fox could do something, they would have by now.
This might be speculation, but it's speculation based on things discussed by people that could make it happen in the last couple of weeks. I know producers who would jump to help make it happen because it would be profitable.

I wrote the piece because it had been discussed with me by fans and others. It's not for "page views," because I have no advertisements! Yes, TV BY THE NUMBERS is also running the piece as an op ed. They do have advertising. The reason I suggested the article to them was to show that there is still valid interest in the subject matter.

Maybe if anything one of those producers I mentioned might contact Mutant Enemy and try and get it rolling.

TV Movies make sense, they'd make money for everyone involved. Fans win, Studios win, Networks win.
Not trying to have a go at you, nickc, just want to remind everyone that there is nothing in motion so not to get their hopes up, and I can't resist a little snark/sarcasm about it. There are producers who want just about anything you can name to happen, doesn't mean its going to or it will. Everything I've been told makes me think that this is incredibly unlikely at this time.
He's talking about a movie made for $4m? That's just about what a 40 min episode would cost (remember the price the networks pay is below cost, assuming profit in syndication, overseas, DVD etc) so they're talking about a two hour action movie made for the cost of a standard 40 min episode. An episode where the main set is already built and ready to use.

This would just look so cheap compared to the TV series in term of production value, the sets, background, effects, costumes, locations etc, that it would almost certainly suck big time.

Shows have been made with greatly reduced budgets forcing changes, during the third Doctor on DW they had the Tardis being disabled so the entire series could be shot in present day England and not need any alien sets or worlds. Could Mal lose Serenity and the crew spend a whole movie trapped in one small location? One that looked like southern California?
Without Fillion it isn't Firefly, so if they could find a way to get him on board somehow, they'd have a start.

As for doing it on a budget, if BSG can do as well as it did, Firefly certainly can. Granted, I don't know the average cost per episode for Battlestar, but Zoic was the special effects company behind both, right?
No way a decent/good Firefly MOW or DTV could cost less than $10-15 Million. Not possible. There is no set, people.
Agreed, zz9. Firefly was a very expensive show for television and I'd wager constructing the set alone could prove quite costly. On the other hand, given the current goodwill at FOX, I could see a scenario like the one nickc is promoting working, if everyone decided to pursue it now and make quick decissions. This last part is where I start getting pessimistic. Even if Joss decided to jump on this despite Dollhouse S2, Cabin, his comics works etcetera, so much stuff would have to align just right, that this seems statistically highly improbable to me. Plus, y'know, this is only speculation anyway and nobody's actually moving on this.

But with time, in a few years, I could imagine that this is the way to go for the franchise. Given its reliable money-making potential, it's quite reasonable to expect the rights holders to milk it with more than just the occassional comic somewhere along the line.

And if it does happen, somewhere down the line, I'd be giddy with joy :)
The rights situation is also a factor as mentioned further up. And GVH is totally correct about the number of planets that would need to align. Save your hope for Summer Glau on Dollhouse!
After the success of the staregate sg1 movies, i think it could be a good possibility.
zeitgeist, well to be fair, I am not implying it's happening am I? I'm stating it would work and why. The producers I'm talking about actually don't usually sit around and talk about things they don't make happen. Of course they're not talking about doing it, just that they don't understand why Mutant Enemy isn't. The point is it would be profitable and can be done even with people attached to other projects if they wanted to do it.

It's an op ed piece being read by a whole lot of non-Whedon fans.

zz9, my apologies but give me even $2M and I could make a 2 hour SCI-FI movie today.

TamaraC, Even without a set, there is no reason for it to cost that much. I know people who could likely put it all together for $3M and make it look like $10M was spent. It's very possible.
TamaraC,

I thought Fox still had the TV rights and Universal had the movie rights?
The cheaper way to keep it "alive" in case the stars do align one day? Smaller-scale Internet short features, even audio only radio play type stuff if necessary. Session 416-like security camera footage of Mal's last interrogration by the Alliance post-surrender but pre-prisoner exchange? Audio tap from Wash's flight school exams? Etc.

I know, I push this one every chance I get. I will until Joss does it. ;)
zeitgeist, well to be fair, I am not implying it's happening am I? I'm stating it would work and why. The producers I'm talking about actually don't usually sit around and talk about things they don't make happen.


No, but you aren't THAT new to how this fandom/the internet works, right? By Thursday someone will be claiming it is happening and be unable to reveal their sources (when in reality they have lifted the idea from your article). Meanwhile, broken hearts aplenty. If you ask any producer, none of them are the types who sit around and talk without making things happen. Mutant Enemy isn't doing it because they've tried it in the past and they are busy at the moment. I also suspect Joss isn't all that interested in getting his heart stepped on again just yet with that particular property.
Who here knows the details of the licensing rights between 20th and Universal? Anyone? Bueller? Yeah. that is what I thought. Not really Firefly without Serenity, NickC. I'm just saying. Not the most expensive set ever, but not cheap either. $3M ? My ass. Not saying it can't be done. Just saying it won't be quality or at all believable.
Ah, if only Powerball (American regional lottery, for those of you scattered around the globe) had swung my way this week. I'd be loading wheelbarrows with large-denom bills, and trucking 'em down I-5 to Joss' office. THEN maybe we'd see the Firefly re-lit.

All this other stuff: Seems mighty conjectural to me.
Reboot! All new cast! Have old Book travel back in time and change history so now Persephone gets destroyed, Mal gets Serenity before the war and Young Book ends up with Inara!


/I'll get me coat....
For clarity's sake: in addition to the set costs, I suspect 20th would have to pony up for movie rights, which wouldn't be what anyone would call cheap. I suspect that alone puts this outside the realm of possibility for the near term (until/if the rights revert).
Anonymous1, have you seen the legal documents? I haven't, but would love to. I actually seriously enjoy some juicy legal documents.

[ edited by TamaraC on 2009-05-30 06:39 ]
What if Fox, Universal, DirecTV, Sky One and Hulu were to all join forces?
NickC, I totally accept that "A" sci fi movie could be made for $2m.

But if you have a fandom used to a look and feel of a show and you give them something that looks cheap then they're going to be disappointed. And a Firefly movie made for $4m would look cheap compared to the series, where they could at least spread the cost of the set across the series. Building that set for a cheap two hour TV movie? And the locations? The western villages dressed with Chinese influences? The CGI? The stunts? The cast?

All that for $4m?
Barry Woodward - I like the cut of your smart-assery :).
Ace Underwood, is that you?
Why would FOX (if it was FOX) have to pony up for TV Movie rights? If FOX still has the TV rights, then they don't have to pony anything. If they have to ignore the movie SERENITY, Alan Tudyk will at least be happy.
TamaraC,

Darn, I was hoping you had seen the legal documents.

Firefly/Serenity without the ship set being built would be like filming Serenity: The Other Half.

B!x,

Real shiny ideas!

[ edited by Anonymous1 on 2009-05-30 06:57 ]
zz9, Sure. I think even Joss has learned more about how to get more out of a dollar than he knew when he shot FIREFLY or SERENITY. If the budget was allowed to stretch to $6M I'm positive it could be done.
B!x, LOL

NickC, talk to the legal department, then blog.
Sorry, very late here and the talk of movie without the word tv in front of it and not being privy to the specific rights agreement had me wandering down that path. I strongly suspect that if it were as simple as saying yes that 20th would've done it by now, so there has to be something further making it untenable, you know?
Building an expensive set for a single TV movie doesn't seem like a great investment but if they could commit to multiple movies or a miniseries (of say six episodes) it may be more palatable.

[ edited by Barry Woodward on 2009-05-30 07:10 ]
I've been waiting for a chance to link TO THIS again.

[ edited by Succatash on 2009-05-30 07:06 ]
NickC,

If you ever get to talk to the legal departments at Universal and/or Fox, find out if the TV rights expire. Cause I remember reading that on the Internet. It was something like Sci-Fi/Universal could not make a Serenity TV show until Fox's TV rights expire. And that the rights expired in 10 or so years after the show. This information is from memory...no legal departments involved.

Thanks for writing the article/blog we are talking about.
NickC, Joss got a lot of credit for making Serenity, in LA, for as little as $40m.

A TVM is of course going to cost less, but a tenth?

The cost of making Firefly was helped by spreading the on-off cost of building the set and hiring a cast of (then) cheap unknowns.

A TVM is going to have to support the cost of that set all by itself (and if you can't have Serenity then it won't work) and many of the cast are now popular stars able to command a decent salary. Much as I know the cast love the project and Joss I don't think it would be fair to expect them to work for scale just so Fox can make a profit.

Even at $6m you are still planning to make a two hour TVM for the same per-minute cost as the TV show, with the set built and an unknown cast.

Joss does know how to get value for money. But even Dr Horrible borrowed the Universal "New York Street" backlot for free and some guy's ready made mad scientist apartment.
If that set was in storage somewhere and could be rebuilt in a day then that part at least would be dealt with. But it isn't.
Well, to throw my two cents in will be pointless, but I do love conversing about the Verse any chance I get.

Will you all really say that you can't see a show were Simon, Kaylee, Book and River are the main focus, while Jayne is on a bender with call girls and Zoe and Wash are out searching for Mal?
.
I think that Joss, Tim and Jane could put together quite a special story using that scenario.

Does anyone know what Sean is doing? Ron has his own dinner theatre in upstate Cali, Jewel doing anything serious after Atlantis?

Chuck was almost not renewed, Castle was on the bubble for a bit.
"V" could be very good, or it may not and Gina's new Law series Washington Fields could match "V",

This is not a bad idea at all. I love it and would pay my money to see it many many time.

but.....

The chances of this happening are None and Much less than NONE.
Barry, if you're going to do a mini series or several movies then you're back with the problem of many of the cast having other commitments.
Or they could film the answer to the question of where the missles came from in Serenity: The Other Half. Only thing of Serenity set used could be the Cargo Bay ramp with the engines.

[ edited by Anonymous1 on 2009-05-30 07:37 ]
zz9, if the miniseries is filmed during the TV hiatus, why couldn't they polish off 4 to 6 episodes? It wouldn't have to all be Joss, they could bring in Tim Minear and/or Ben Edlund to lighten the load. Then they can slap it on a DVD/Blu-Ray, market it as Firefly season 2 and watch the money roll in.

[ edited by Barry Woodward on 2009-05-30 08:10 ]
zz9, SERENITY had a lot of FX shots. A made for TV Movie would not. If my memory is right the pilot was shot for $6M wasn't it? That was a 2 hour event for TV.

Obviously Glau would cost more, but I don't see any of the rest of the cast besides Fillion commanding any great amount of money. If the cast want to do it and Whedon wants to do it, it's something that packaged right could be sold.

A new series is impossible right now, but a Made For TV Movie could work.
I don't think it's necessary to actively hope for the failure of all their shows... Anyway, Washington Field hasn't been picked up.
Also Glau is willing to do stuff really cheap because she is talking about doing DOLLHOUSE!
She is talking about it? Where exactly is Summer "talking about it". Sure she will do it, if Joss asks, but I haven't seen any quotes from Summer.
TamaraC, that depends on if you think Joss Whedon is a credible source on Glau. According to him, she is.
I can't help but feel that TV by the Numbers on purposely writes articles in order to stir up fandom and get more hits on their website. This doesn't seem to have any more basis than any random rumor that someone posts at imdb.
According to Joss, he would like her to be on Dollhouse and he has talked to her about it before TSCC was canceled. I have yet to see where Summer says she is going to be on Dollhouse. She probably will, but I prefer to not put words in her mouth. I'm all about actual facts before throwing out random bullshit to see what morons actual snap at it out of desperation. YMMV.
Joss said he raised the idea with Summer before T:SCC was ever cancelled. Neither he nor anyone else said "Summer is talking about it" or "Summer is considering it" or "Summer wants to do it" or whatnot.

ETA: Jinx, you owe me a bourbon and ginger.

[ edited by The One True b!X on 2009-05-30 08:05 ]
I promise to buy you drinks at ComicCon.
It just dawned on me that we never heard Universal say Firefly DVD sales had nothing to do with the final decision to greenlight Serenity in March 2004. Coincidentally after a delayed greenlight in the fall of 2003, just before the DVDs came out...

Boom! I love you guys.
It's been seven years, let it go. It's not coming back. We've got to stop flogging this dead horse and move on.
Is it the horse Mal shot that fell on Patience that we're flogging?
Yeah but if Twilight can kickstart a Buffy movie without Joss, what could Star Trek do to Firefly/Serenity with Joss?

Moving on seems to have brought us back to square one.
No, that's just the illusion created by not moving on.
I understand what you're saying, Simon, but I'm in rather a Patience-like position beneath that dead horse; however slim the hope, I have to at least lend its bearer my ear.

EBPTA: b!X, please let me keep my thoughts.
I'm pretty sure I don't have the power of mind control. ;)
NickC, so $6m in 2002 would be well over $7m today, plus higher salary for Summer, Nathan, Alan, Morena...

And that's assuming that none of them hold out for silly money.

So we're already up to around $8m and your original figures were based on $4m.

Not saying it's never going to happen, but with the Serenity set and the look of the show being suck a big deal it would make more sense to spread that cost over more screen time, and that would mean mini series, and that would mean interfering with many cast commitments.

Maybe a reduced crew? If we follow the movie then we'd have no Wash or Book. Do a Blake's Seven and lose Mal? How about a mini series starring River and Zoe with Simon, Kaylee and Jayne and the search for Mal? Plenty of potential for conflict in that crew! Nathan could do a cameo at the end.
I for one would like to thank NickC for this piece. Let's remember before blaming that nice gentleman that his record on Dollhouse is pristine, which proves that he knows people and TV.

Now, I think we should read his article as : How is it possible that no Firefly Tv movie was ever made ? We all know that it would make sense money-wise so that's not a problem.

I'm guessing the responsibility lies more with Mutant Enemy, and therefore Joss, who decided to move on rather than "flogging this dead horse" as Simon put it. The classic purple man line, "when someone comes and offers me a deal", is just a way of saying "as I don't have hope for that, I'm not going to try too hard". I don't blame the master, but I really think he could make it happen, if he put his mind to it.
No, that's just the illusion created by not moving on.

Star Trek fans were told that back in the 1960's.
No one's record is pristine. On anything. Ever.
zz9, $4M is enough. I know what things cost. $4M is enough.

I think most of you forget what happened. Joss didn't want to work with FOX again so a TV Movie hasn't been brought up to them. Now that he is working with them again on DOLLHOUSE it's an actual possibility.
b!x, they're just referring to the fact that when I said DOLLHOUSE was coming back, it was renewed. I however agree with you, no one's record is pristine, and especially not mine.
Leo, you have no idea what you are talking about. We don't know it would make sense money wise. That is absurd and we don't know that Joss hasn't tried and been refused by the people with the legal rights and the money.

NickC got lucky on his Dollhouse predictions and we imbue him with some sort of knowledge because we wanted him to be right. It could have extremely easily gone the other way. And NickC knows that.

I guess I should just stop now, 'cause what do I know. sheez!

[ edited by TamaraC on 2009-05-30 08:45 ]
It's kind of harsh to use words such as absurd, TamaraC :(

I do believe that a Tv movie would make sense money wise, but everyone is entitled to its opinion. I only say this because it seems to me that dvd sales would be huge, and that you could hope at least the kind of ratings that Dollhouse had at its beginnings. Therefore it seems viable to me. As you said, I don't know what I am talking about, but I can reflect on the issue as anyone else.

I also don't know that Joss hasn't tried. But trying now would make sense, as he likes once again Fox. And I can't help to think that saying you're waiting for your phone to ring is kind of a cop-out. And as I said, I don't blame anyone, God knows Joss, if that's the case, has good reasons not to work towards a Firefly sequel.

Finally, saying NickC got lucky means he is as useless and ignorant as, say, me and flipped a coin in his room. That's not the case, so even if luck was part of the process, network and knowledge might have had something to do with it.
TamaraC, I don't make "predictions," I'm not some quack. I have correctly reported the renewals and cancellations of multiple shows since last Fall on TVBTN. My information comes from the networks or producers attached to projects directly. I report what I'm told, and the possibility of DOLLHOUSE not being renewed was never in doubt after I reported it was happening. My record is more than just DOLLHOUSE, it was reporting PUSHING DAISIES and DIRTY SEXY MONEY "officially canceled," hours before the media even started reporting it. My time-line for what was happening with CHUCK was verified by producers after.

My memory may not be the best, and my speculations might not end up being spot on or even close at times. However when I say something is going on in the industry, it is.
Also, more generally: I've personally long since grown weary of the idea that Joss should go make a Buffy movie or more Firefly and just stop already with all this "new ideas" nonsense.
Sorry Nick but if Serenity cost $6m seven years ago I just cannot see how Joss could make a similar TVM for $2m less even before inflation, while having to spend more on the cast, without seriously lower production values.

Whatever needed to be done, no Serenity, no locations, smaller cast, whatever, would make it a clearly substandard and disappointing product.

You'd really need $4m per hour, a figure I've seen quoted for the BSG miniseries. And that would be back to $8m for a two hour TVM which also fits the "$6m + 7 Years inflation + cast" estimate.

Also Nick, Joss didn't want to work with FBC, he never had a problem with 20th Studio, and they could have shopped it anywhere.
Good point B!x, if Joss had stuck with making more Buffy we'd never have had Firefly.
I think the temperature of this thread is a little too hot so we shall cool down for a few hours.
Right game on again, let's try and keep it civil and not shout each other down.

My fandom heart says yes please to more Firefly. But my fandom mind says no way, aint going to happen.
Here's a thing, Fox are now working with Joss again, they still have the rights as far as we know. I can't see why it wouldn't be discussed at the very least. Fox have intimated that they are looking for properties that are a sure bet in terms of support. They know Joss has this, and they have proof of this with Firefly.

Maybe a mini-series rather than a TV movie? I know again it's all about cost. I have no idea how that side of things work. But I can't see why they wouldn't have had a converstation at the very least about it.
*donotgethopesup donotgethopesup donotgethopesup*
My hopes are not up, but I'll admit its nice to dream. Kind of like playing playing the lottery, y'know you're not going to win, but you get to wonder "what if?".
This is a perfect example of how to provoke a fandom response in the absence of any hard information.
Joss got a pass with Dollhouse. That's hard for me to write and I don't mean to be flippant - but there is no way a show with that demo should have been renewed. But I believe he pitched them something remarkable.

But you thought the BtVS movie reboot was too soon? The Firefly sequel so soon.

I can almost see them wanting to reboot Buffy. She is iconic. WonderCon 2007 program - Lara Croft, Spock, Spiderman, Sailor Moon and Buffy. Front cover.
Perhaps if there was a time machine involved.

[ edited by Sunfire on 2009-05-30 13:34 ]
How about this: Firefly post-Serenity movie, meaning no Wash and no Book. Additionally, Inara could be away off on a job and relegated to a guest spot at most. So you'd just have the remaining six cast members to budget. On top of that, you might be able to get away with only making a few of the rooms in Serenity herself, like the cargo room and possibly the dining room or bridge.

If they shot it in a cheap place, I bet they could do it very cost effective and still have a quality look to it all. Whether a TV movie of that nature could be done within 6 mil, I don't know.

[ edited by archon on 2009-05-30 13:45 ]
I'm willing to let "Buffy" go (and won't even comment on last week's "Buffy without Joss" trash fire) but can't get "Firefly" out of my hopes because it feels like there are so many more places for that brilliant setup to go: more planets, more power structures, more scams, more Kaylee, more guys in blue gloves and much more of Our Mrs. Reynolds. And "Objects in Space" is my all-time favorite episode script, ever. So I'll daydream about another go-round even though I know nothing of today's TV realities (my experience at Sony and Warner Bros. is 25 years out of date).
The 'Verse is a fantastical world, and we've only explored the smallest part of it. If Joss doesn't leave TV/Movies ever, I'm more than sure we'll see it again directed by some 70 Year old Joss.

Also, If FOX would be willing to make a Firefly TVM, why not let them make an The OC TVM? I'm sure that'll have MASSIVE buzz.
I love my Firefly since the moment I first laid eyes on it. But seriously folks: It has been SIX YEARS since the series. Four since the movie.

Joss has moved on. The cast has moved on (some spectacularly so).

Let us remember our lost love fondly, even with passion, but it's time for us to move on.
I think I summed it up more realistically in this image on my personal blog: http://bitter-girl.com/?p=1808

Would it be awesome? YES. Is it likely? I don't think so. Would I jump up and down like a schoolgirl and make squealing noises? Yes, of course. Would the earth rumbles from said jumping be felt on other continents? Probably. But I'm happy to have Castle back for my Fillion-fix in the meantime, and hoping for more Tudyk on Dollhouse next season...I'll take what I can get!
I'm more than sure we'll see it again directed by some 70 Year old Joss.

I've wondered a few times what Joss is going to be making when he's in his 70s. I see the humour tapering off and him making bitter and existentialist but brilliant films. I'm roughly half joking
Gee Willikers - would the Kazuis be behind this one too? ;)
Why can't they pull an Outlaw Star and have another series concentrating on new characters but set in the same universe? Hell, fan shows do that sorta thing anyway what with different ships and crews but with references to particular known planets and occasional run-ins with the Hands Of Blue or the Reavers. I can see that happening, as long as it gets Joss's approval and great writers.
There are so many people with a burr in their saddle about this, good grief, it was an opinion piece, nothing more. Some people really get riled when there is talk about more Firefly.

Who among us, haven't thought about what they would do if they won millions in the lottery, you may not even play the lottery for weeks or months at a time, but those dreamy thoughts are still with you. Why is it that so many are so damned eager to dash the dreams and thoughts of someone else?

My opinion is that the Miami Dolphins will kick Tom Brady's ass and go on to win the SuperBowl this year, my opinion is that Man U. will not win a championship in the next 5 years, my opinion is someday we will get more of the Firefly verse, I think it can be done and one day it will be done.

It doesn't make you a better person, because you can smash someones hope, it doesn't make you smarter either, it makes you cold and mean. Let others believe and feels what they will especially if it isn't going to hurt you in any way.
shepherdbookshair, this is a discussion. That means people aren't all going to agree with you. And when they disagree, it's not the moral equivalent of breaking your toys or kicking your dog.

The naysayers get to play, too. That doesn't make us cold and mean, it makes us differently-opinioned.

[ edited by The One True b!X on 2009-05-30 16:57 ]
Well, in some countries being differently-opinioned will cost you your life.
There is nothing wrong with having a difference of opinion, but some people seem to be genuinely angry about Nick C.'s opinion and happy to tear holes in it.

To the best of my knowledge there are no right or wrong opinions, but if someone really cares about a project and really believe in it, shouldn't we just let them have their faith?

Nick says he has access to producers who may have shown an interest in this idea, I will take him at his word, but some seem to want to attack him on this, btw, that is my opinion.

I don't know or talk to any producers and I haven't been infront of a movie camera in over two decades, so I have no clue as to the inner workings and dealings, but he wasn't stating his Firefly ideas as fact, just opinion, who knows maybe he has it right.
I think is is fair to say that most everyone's expectations for the likelihood of a Firefly continuation have been based on the (justified) assumption that Fox hates the franchise's guts and would go out of its way to avoid doing it any favors. Well, if Fox has truly changed its game (I see the generous treatment of Dollhouse as a very good indicator) then that totally changes the potential outlook of Firefly's future. Add to that the shifting market economics of tv that seem to trend towards properties with cult audience appeal (Dollhouse, Chuck anyone?) and the fact that all the original creative parties involved have expressed a serious interest in continuing their involvement; I don't find speculation of this sort at this time to be inapropriate at all. Obviously I wouldn't expect anything to come of this in the immediate future since these things take time and, as already mentioned, a number of the important players are kinda busy right now, but over the next few years? Call me crazy, but I'm optimistic.

Additionally, I can understand the wariness of the long-term fans whenever a "new" round of rampant speculation of this sort surfaces, but speaking as a new Firefly fan (8 months and counting) without years of waiting and dissapointment to weigh down my hopes and dreams, I really do believe that the potential for Firefly's future is much brighter than it ever has been before this year.

[ edited by brinderwalt on 2009-05-30 17:45 ]
What might be more viable given the cast's current commitments is a series of short Firefly prequels, telling character backstories. That would mean that not all the cast would be necessary all at once. That would also keep costs down, as the Serenity set might not be necessary.

Anyway, there are lots of ways of thinking about how the story could continue on the small screen, if any of the networks are interested. It seems obviously viable if structured right. The bigger question is how much will there is behind such projects. Not much, I think. On the other hand, networks have been reviving older ideas lately (Knight Rider, V). Not all of those efforts have succeeded, but a mild reboot of Firefly would be a far better bet than most.

[ edited by ern on 2009-05-30 18:01 ]
Brinderwalt, which Fox do you mean? The network may hate Firefly, they're the ones who cancelled it, but Joss has said he had no problem with the Studio. They're the ones who own the property and are still making money from the DVDs of the show.

There's no reason they'd be against making a TVM. They could sell it to any network and it would also boost the sales of their original series DVDs. I'm sure they'd love to do it, if the sums added up.

But I think they may also realise that a uber cheap TVM could not only fail but damage the show permanently.
Ern, that could work. We've seen brief flashbacks but we could easily see a "Mal and Zoe in the army" TVM leading up to and after the war, a "River asks Simon to help her escape" TVM showing how he got her out, a "Book resigns his job as an Operative/whatever and finds god" movie and so on. Without the ship set it could be made cheaper.

This would also very likely mean recasting younger actors, which would also keep down the cost. Maybe have the original cast make cameo's.
Brinderwalt, which Fox do you mean? The network may hate Firefly, they're the ones who cancelled it, but Joss has said he had no problem with the Studio.


Fox the network, and my point is that I think there's been significant enough regime change at the network for them to be willing to seriously consider bringing Firefly back.
I don't think the network hated the show, they did greenlight it after all. They just couldn't get it to work.
zz9, could you quit your talks about "uber cheap," and everything else? You obviously have no clue what anything costs to make. The original pilot for the show was bloated with extra costs in my opinion. This is my line of work. A budget of $4M to $6M is more than enough and isn't "uber cheap." That number came from talking to people who know everything there is to know about it. My piece may be an opinion piece but it has some facts in it. It is factual that a GOOD product could be made with that money. I know people that could provide the product for $2M and make it look the same as the original TV series (but with different actors). As long as we're not talking about the quality of SERENITY and talking about the quality of FIREFLY it is very capable. The $4M price point is a legit one.

BSG btw is much cheaper than you're yammering on about. $4M an hour?!?!? SCI-FI is cheap and would never, ever agree to anything along those lines.
I loved Firefly and I would love to get more of it in any form (including up coming comics). My objection is treating this unsupported opinion piece as a news story and putting it up here at Whedonesque. Normally the front page of Whedonesque is reserved for actual news. Obviously people are enjoying discussing it, and if they want to discuss the fact that it is only one persons opinion then I think that that is perfectly reasonable.
Well, it is true that Firefly sold well on DVD and that the fanbase has grown exponentially. I've seen us overwhelm Dragon*Con these past few years. I know there are a lot of people that would flock to anything new in the Verse.

Rebooting the tv series would be a dream come true. But that seems unlikely to happen. I'm not getting my hopes up until I hear that it's actually being discussed.

What about the idea of doing a spin-off show? Joss created a big verse, there is certainly room for other stories in that verse. It would get around the scheduling problems with actors - they could certainly guest in various episodes when they have time. I know I'd love to see something set in this verse.

Anyway, this is all just speculation. The one thing I gathered is Nick C claims to have access to the unpublished numbers and that Firefly is one of the best sellers on dvd. I'm sure that the execs look at those numbers. The only thing we can do is keep spreading the word, keep those dvds strong, keep the signal out there.
zz9, could you quit your talks about "uber cheap," and everything else?


Can you not tell your fellow posters what to say here, it comes over as somewhat rude.
Speculation aside, if this does happen, it would be quite the awesome (but really only if Wash comes back).
nickc, I see that you know less than you think you do. Sci-fi only paid for a portion of BSG. Look it up. Not sure your "sources" will know.

Have your sources talked to Uni's or 20th's lawyers yet? There are very good reasons why no FF movie has been made.
(but really only if Wash comes back)

This is a good illustration why in many ways I just think it just might be a bad idea to ponder a wholesale revival of the show. No one's going to get exactly what they want, no matter how it would be done, and I can't help but wonder if anyone, on the creative side, would really want to take on that headache.

We'd all have to brace for an inevitable onslaught of "no Wash? feh!" or "no Book? feh!" or "no Zoe? feh!" or "no ship? feh!" comments. Sounds pretty exhausting to me. ;)
You know, we are getting a lot of mail asking us why we didn't open registration for Memorial Day. Now other than that we tend to stick to major holidays that are observed world wide, we decided to keep registration closed for a while, because our current crop of newer members don't seem to have got the hang of the Whedonesque vibe yet. The tone of recent disussions here has frankly been unacceptable. Say whatever you want to say, whatever the way you want to say it on your own blogs, or on other forums where that kind of thing is tolerated. It's not on Whedonesque. We're all about hugs and puppies here. (Except for the mods, natch.) Adapt,or find another outlet.
The story doesn't exist. There was talk (only talk) amongst Fox staffers around 18 months ago about the desire to look at something, but it got squashed for legal and political reasons within Fox.
We'd all have to brace for an inevitable onslaught of "no Wash? feh!" or "no Book? feh!" or "no Zoe? feh!" or "no ship? feh!" comments. Sounds pretty exhausting to me. ;)


Only one of the original cast or even just Joss Whedon at the helm would be enough for me because I think the characters and 'verse are so well formed that each would have no trouble standing on its own. In fact, I would love to see multiple spinoffs of the original series each following the continuing lives of one of the original main characters, but that's just me of course.

[ edited by brinderwalt on 2009-05-30 19:22 ]
nick c: You may well know what you are talking about, but when you say your opinion is based on "facts" and
'talking to people who know what they are talking about", you are not trumping all other views. That is because you are not saying where the facts come from, or who the people are- so you can't legitimately expect people to just take you at your word.

Maybe you can't quote your sources because they wouldn't like that and would stop telling you stuff? That's fine, but doesn't back up your arguments. And since you aren't saying that something is going to happen, but rather that it ought to happen, surely you can see why the "facts" you refer to don't inspire total confidence?

[ edited by toast on 2009-05-30 19:34 ]
Tamara, since my source on all things BSG is Ronald Moore (heck I've got his script for his prequel to THE THING in the other room), I'm pretty sure I know what they spend on things. They do it cheap, cheap, cheap. They love people throwing out bigger numbers and never denying them. Same with Don Coscarelli and others who are masters at making stuff incredibly cheap and make it look like it cost millions more.

If you're talking about the original mini-series I believe (we're talking 6 year old memories here) the entire series cost around $8M and that included having to ditch some of the earlier designs. Still $8M over 3 hours is $2.6M an hour which means my $4M estimate still stands.

This is my line of work. I know what a budget would be, and unless they added a lot of FX shots, $4M to $6M is an easy to pull off budget that would be high quality. The V remake was done on the cheap and it didn't look cheap (Although they could improve the FX on Tudyk's tear).

The FOX people I spoke to spoke as if it was possible for them to do, I speculated that if it wasn't then it was in Universal's hands and how NBC or USA or SCI-FI or any of the Networks could air a Made For TV Movie. The rights are most certainly clearly in one of their hands. The reason FOX has never made a made for TV movie is nobody at Mutant Enemy has ever pitched it to them. I'm under the impression that it was tossed around a while back and they didn't have the nerve to approach Mutant Enemy about it, now Peter Rice would be the guy and that isn't a problem.

Also I don't have sources, I talk to the people directly. I don't get 2nd hand info, and when I do I report it as such.

Thanks! Also put it this way: If you heard Joss Whedon was offered a 2 hour made for TV movie for FIREFLY and was given a budget of $5M and he accepted, would you be happy?
toast, I think the biggest problem seems to be a few people here find it hard to believe justice could be served for the budget I mentioned. I doubt now anything I say will change their mind, but I wish they wouldn't act like their opinion was a certainty.
You know, we are getting a lot of mail asking us why we didn't open registration for Memorial Day. Now other than that we tend to stick to major holidays that are observed world wide, we decided to keep registration closed for a while, because our current crop of newer members don't seem to have got the hang of the Whedonesque vibe yet.


If I have been in any way contributing to this negative trend I would like to sincerely apologize to my fellow whedonesquers and to the powers that be. :(

[ edited by Simon on 2009-05-30 19:50 ]
Nick, someone telling you something firsthand is still a "source". The word "source" isn't simply some sort of synonym for "second-hand" or "studio scuttlebutt" or "grapevine".

ETA: Who frakked up the formatting this time?

[ edited by The One True b!X on 2009-05-30 19:47 ]
Nick, I talk to people at 20th. I have received information that contradicts yours. I know where the rights lie and what the issues are. I would much rather you be right in some manner, but I trust the people I talk to and I have no idea who you are talking with so I don't trust them. Sorry.
I'd like to add that all discussions of budgets aside, the question was "would FOX or NBC be willing to bring it back?" The answer to me is yes, and I explain why. Sometimes there just isn't a right time for something, but now it seems like an easier pitch than ever before.

Getting Whedon and his properties some free PR during summer isn't a bad thing. If some new people watch on Hulu or buy a DVD set or give DOLLHOUSE a try from reading the article on my site or TVBTN, then all the better. It wasn't written for anything but good intentions.
b!x, when someone says "have your sources talk to someone at," that implies I'm not getting the information first hand.

TamaraC, I'm talking to people at FOX BROADCASTING. I'm not talking to anyone at 20th Century. If you know where the rights lie and what the issues are then share them.
FBC doesn't have any rights to Firefly. Why would you be talking with them? 20th owns the franchise and licensed movie rights to Universal. The one person who championed the franchise at Universal is no longer there. Further than that (which is all public info), it isn't my place to speak for 20th.

Pretty sure, no one at FBC was any say in the matter at all.
TamaraC, no one at FOX would have any say? It's a made for TV movie! I didn't know the studio could make whatever they want and air it anywhere! If the guys at FOX decide they might like to do it, I don't see 20th Century or Joss saying "no, thanks."
I'm saying that 20th can't make a TV movie, Nick. Even if FBC wanted one and paid them $10M for it. It is a rights issue. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

And of course, if the rights issue was to get cleared up, 20th could make whatever they wanted and sell it to any network or outlet that they wanted. FBC doesn't control 20th. They are very separate entities.

I'm actually quite surprised that you didn't know that. That definitely puts things into a different (and much more clear) light.

[ edited by TamaraC on 2009-05-30 20:19 ]
TamaraC, If FOX can't (and I hinted they might not be able to) then it would be a Universal opportunity, they have NBC, USA, SCI-FI, etc. It shouldn't be hard to find one of them interested in a payday. If you're saying that they don't have the rights either, I'm confused. One of them most definitely has the TV rights.

I also know how the industry works. FOX or NBC would make an order before 20th ever made anything. 20th also likely wouldn't do the pitching, Mutant Enemy would.

[ edited by nickc on 2009-05-30 20:20 ]
There are different rights for TV series and TV movie and Feature film. It's a mess. Hopefully someone will get it all straightened out one day, but it won't be for a $4M TV movie.

BBC or HBO could make the order, Nick. FBC and NBC do not need to be involved. It could be DTV or only shown on Mars.

I'm done with the topic, Nick.

[ edited by TamaraC on 2009-05-30 20:25 ]
TamaraC, I think you should quit making assumptions about what people know. You're making implications that are entirely unfounded and imho rude.
TamaraC, I doubt it's a mess. Someone has the rights, and I'm sure 20th knows exactly whom it is. They would be the entity to approach.
TamaraC, if BBC or HBO or anyone could make the order, then there are no rights issues! Which is it? Does FOX still own the TV rights or does Universal? If anyone could order it, then there are no issues. If only one entity can order it, then that is the entity that should be pursued. It doesn't stop the profitability of the venture.
I feel that this thread is being taken over by just one poster who needs to get in the last word, but I suppose my complaint in that regard should be made directly to the mods. huh?
Sigh. Fox Broadcasting doesn't own the rights to anything related to FF. 20th C does for some things and Uni does for others. The road to new 'verse does not lead through (or even intersect) FBC. If the folks you talk to were implying that it did then they must have been speaking for News as a whole, not FBC.

And I am not saying that BBC or HBO could make the order today for a FF MOW. I was making the point that any network or outlet can make a deal with 20th for whatever. FBC has no say in the matter.
As much as I'd love more Firefly/Serenity movies and for the series to be renewed, I just don't think it's likely. Too many planets needing to align, as others have said. I'm still holding out for the Serenity comics, and Book's Story. I'd love to see a Serenity comic series longer than 5 issues. That'd be great :)
Speculative query: If, say, 20th owns TV rights and, say, Uni owns movie rights, is it possible for part of that contractual arrangement to actually preclude anyone from making a TV movie at all?
At the risk of being kicked... I stopped reading and scrolled down here to point out: Why don't you people read what he is on about (not what he's on, that may well be an illegal substance ;) because it seems a lot are just commenting without having read it. He is not talking about cinema movies, he is not talking about a new series for instance. He's talking about a TV movie.
Hunted, almost everyone here understands that, and is discussing it in that context. Seems a little bizarre to criticize people for not reading when you just admitted, and demonstrated, not doing the same, you know? ;)

[ edited by The One True b!X on 2009-05-30 21:04 ]
Obviously I'd be ecstatic if it comes back in any form, but I'm not getting my hopes up.
This doesn't feel like the kind of discussion that typically takes place on Whedonesque. The energy of it is out of character for Whedon fans. I hope Caroline and Simon just delete the whole post altogether.
Heh, no they have the ability to lock threads now, so that's more likely than all-out deletion (which sacrifices the civil and quality discussion with the bad--throwing the baby out with the bath water). When mods start deleting large discussions like this, especially when they're attached to a relevant link that should stay and be a part of the Whedonesque archives, it starts feeling a little oppressive (yeah, I know, that's a little dramatic, it's a website). That's other certain sites and boards, I can't see Whedonesque getting that bad. The most you'll see is mods requesting newbies use better spelling/proper grammar (which yes, should be encouraged everywhere and is much nicer on the eyes of everyone else reading) and chiding when personal attacks start happening.

As far as the tone of this thread...nickc is as welcome here as any of us, but I think what got him off on the wrong foot as a new poster was maybe some Whedonesquers memories of his comments in his column and column's comment responses in the Dollverse/gossi ordeal. Also, people question his assertions (I know it's a fine balancing act 'cause columnists can't always reveal their sources, but they also shouldn't get all bent out of shape when readers call things into question--it's not worth acting like your pride is hurt if people don't believe you, it's just the internet and it's just TV guys). Triple-posting feels kinda like you're hammering things harder than necessary too. We have an "edit" button here, you can edit your posts. And he comes on a little strong compared to what we're generally used to here, but that's certainly not a first here.

Can cooler heads prevail ?
This is why we can't have nice things. Nickc I warned you earlier about your behaviour and you ignored it, so your posting rights have been revoked for a while. If anyone else wants to engage in shouty shouty posting here, they will find they're out as well. Quite frankly the behaviour in this thread has pretty apalling and has turned in a train wreck. It'll stayed locked for the forseeable future.

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