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June 02 2009

Total Sci-Fi's 'The 25 Women Who Shook Sci-Fi' list. Buffy was second, Willow took 21st place. However Entertainment Weekly's PopWatch blog argues that they have no place on the list.

If Buffy and Willow don't belong because they are fantasy, then there are a few more people on that list that do not fall strictly into scifi. The list to me looks to be a nice, fair mix of scifi and fantasy, and lets be honest, those two genres go hand in hand. Especially since they say in the opening paragraph that this is a list of scifi & fantasy women!
Who cares and what does it matter?
Anal sci-fi fans - like me!

Other than that, nobody.
Sci-fi and fantasy aren't the same thing. They can be grouped together, sometimes, sure, but to say they are the same thing is like saying Star Wars is the same as Lord of the Rings.
This is pointless, the article title only said Sci-Fi, but the opening paragraph clearly says:

Total Sci-Fi now reveals the 25 most important SF & fantasy heroines of all time.

Pshaw! with just a little bit of Fie.
Also, there is Sci-Fi in Buffy. Adam? All the initative's sci-fi gizmos? The many robots (April, BuffyBot, etc.)?

You could even argue for I Robot, You Jane as sci-fi.
It is a common misconception, the grouping of the two, fuelled on by the fact that bookstores and movies are ALWAYS putting them together.

I (personally) felt that Megan Fox didn't deserve the list;
1) This is an ALL TIME list, and her appearance from a few years ago doesn't seem to have the age to be put in such a list.
2) I didn't see her as a shaker, or an icon, just Hollywood following their current formula- action movie+"hot girl"= better male appreciation.

Just my opinion.
I always thought that Buffy had some SCI-FI elements in the 4th season.
Is this another case of the "let's insult Joss Whedon or his work because we know it'll get us lots and lots of pageviews"?

ETA: okay, so I actually clicked the link, and gave them the pageview, and they weren't actually insulting them at all... and so I apologise, but I do still get the feeling that there are so many articles like that at the moment, which are just so pointless and blatantly designed for hits. Perhaps I'm being a bit too harsh?

[ edited by MattK on 2009-06-02 21:59 ]
It doesn't really matter, PopWatch's basis for complaint is invalid.
Buffy and Willow have impacted sci-fi even if the series they were in wasn't sci-fi in the stricter senses of the term. BtVS wanders all across the genre boundaries anyway. I wouldn't choose it as my ditch to die in for a SF/F distinction debate. It's a subversion of a classic horror trope beating up fanastical creatures on a playground that begs, borrows, and steals from every genre its creator finds nifty.
I think a lot of confusion arises when people try to make a distinction between sci fi and fantasy as competing genres because the word fantasy is actually a misnomer. The distinction is really between science fiction and supernatural fiction, not fantasy. Using the word fantasy just confuses things since, technically speaking, both gemres are forms of fiction that feature fantastical elements as a genre identifier. Hope that makes sense. :)

Oh, and yeah: If they were a bit more consistent in their own terminology/ the poll didn't include the word fantasy as a qualifier, they could've made a much better point.
I echo the fact that this article is pointless. Apparently the writer didn't take the time to read the introduction to the list he was commenting on. *claps*
I've added a link the list in question so people can make their own minds up. As for this particular storm in a teacup, I have a feeling it's going to be a long summer till Dollhouse airs again. Long long long long long long long summer. And it's only the start of June.
We'll be good, Simon. We promise :)
l would think Buffy would fit into the sci-fi realm, her fight with Adam had sort of a sci-fi theme to it. Didn't it?
Heh, re: one of the comments about Claire Bennet from Heroes. "Both her moms are cooler than she is." So true. One of those actors (Jessalyn Gilsig, might've spelled that wrong) is on Glee and was great on Nip/Tuck, at least in the one season I saw of it. The other, Ashley Crow, plays frustrated, tortured, yet caring real well and would be well utilized by Joss when Heroes concludes or is cancelled. Somehow Claire's adoptive mom still manages to be awesome, despite being surrounded by so many other examples of character assasinations and retcons (Bryan Fuller's episode was awesome and went a long way to "fixing" the few things that could be fixed, ie , but while the second half of Season 3 was far better than the first half, the show still isn't "fixed". I think I'm still sticking around for Season 4 though, 'cause apparently Fuller is staying on full time and it'll be interesting to see if he can at least finish it well).

Lists...lists are pointless (aside from maybe directing new fans to worthwhile properties sometimes, I suppose), lists are fun...a lot of us here do lists when we're discussing our favorites (shows, actors, characters, title sequence, sets, etc). Lists are just lists, the internet has made them a bigger deal than they ever were in magazines like Entertainment Weekly or your newspaper's entertainment columnists' year-end Best Of lists. Ignore, enjoy, comment on, but there's no use in complaining that they exist.

[ edited by Kris on 2009-06-02 23:08 ]
Let's cause fake drama so we can get traffic to our site... wheeeee!
I have a feeling it's going to be a long summer till Dollhouse airs again. Long long long long long long long summer. And it's only the start of June.

But the start of June means the full start of CSTS, where crap tons of fans the world over will be in good spirits doing good things. Screw everything else. ;)
where crap tons of fans the world over will be in good spirits doing good things


There's many a way to read that sentence.

Anyhoo it seemed a bit silly not to make the list the centre of attention (as it's getting a fair bit of press elsewhere) so I tweaked the entry and made the EW blog post a sidebar. Or something like that.
Plus we'll have much to discuss once Epitaph One is viewable. It'll be a shiny new toy.
Plus we'll have much to discuss once Epitaph One is viewable. It'll be a shiny new toy.


Yes I forgot about that (5 weeks to go), I wonder if we'll ever see Echo on lists like this one.
List was fine until number 11. Then it just nose dived, crashed, and the bloodied survivors were left shambling in agony.

And the lack of Firefly ladies is no good.
I wonder if we'll ever see Echo on lists like this one.

If we get enough seasons, maybe. If Echo's character arc of self-discovery is cut short, if she never fully realizes herself, then I think not. Because it's more like we're watching character creation at work here, character creation and emancipation at the same time. Hopefully we'll get to see the build-up and climax as Joss plans it. Right now, I see a lot of comments where Echo is largely unidentifiable by fans, that they can't connect to her. And these lists seem all about the iconic, those clearly defined.
Would you say it could be, perhaps, a cruel summer? ;)

I apologize Simon, I lack self control.
Star Wars is the same as Lord of the Rings.

Sure. They're both fantasy. :)
Star Wars is the same as Lord of the Rings.

Sure. They're both fantasy. :)


And, to add further fuel to the fire, they're both founded on the supernatural. ;)
More interesting to me: who are the truly great female villains? The equivalents of the Joker and Darth Vader etc?

There's Number Six I guess. Near all the Buffyverse characters were badcurious but I don't think Faith or Glory are creations as triumphant as Buffy or Ripley.

Also I'd nominate Demona from the cartoon series/comic Gargoyles. The most stunning study of a good but flawed person who becomes consumed by vengeance, who loves and loses, who reforms and backslides, and the ripple effect that her monomania has across continents and millennia, from the court of Macbeth to the streets of New York.
Well, redeem147, technically anything fiction would be fantasy....

;)

[ edited by didifallasleep on 2009-06-03 00:33 ]
Where's the love for Farscape on these lists?

Any list like this that leaves out Aeryn Sun is nearly meaningless.
It is a common misconception, the grouping of the two, fuelled on by the fact that bookstores and movies are ALWAYS putting them together.

I (personally) felt that Megan Fox didn't deserve the list;
1) This is an ALL TIME list, and her appearance from a few years ago doesn't seem to have the age to be put in such a list.
2) I didn't see her as a shaker, or an icon, just Hollywood following their current formula- action movie+"hot girl"= better male appreciation.


I agree with everything said here. :)

Maybe Dollhouse could be included on a SyFy list. :) Or, wait. There IS "science" in it! Yay! Sci-Fi! :D
Well, redeem147, technically anything fiction would be fantasy....

;)


I would say that fantastical fiction (commonly referred to as "fantasy") and mundane fiction (plain ole "fiction" in today's terms) differ in that the former generally depicts events which diverge from reality to a noticeably greater extent. It's like the difference between writing a fictional account of having tea with a random friend and writing one about having tea with David Bowie - both are possible, but the second one is almost certainly a fantasy (unless you're best buds with David Bowie, of course).
Megan Fox was on the list for Transformers, so the list is pretty much Fail for that reason alone...
So many strong, lovely ladies and so many are just talking semantics? Priorities, people! Just look at the pretty pictures. ;)
What pictures?
Any list like this that leaves out Aeryn Sun is nearly meaningless.

Nearly? I'd say completely. Admittedly, I've never seen Alien, but Aeryn would be #2 on my list, right after Buffy herself.
I can't believe they mentioned two Dr. Who companions but left off Leela.
Ursula LeGuin, an excellent writer of both SciFi and Fantasy, didn't like to distinguish the two. She preferred the term "speculative fiction".
I can't believe they mentioned two Dr. Who companions but left off Leela.


Yeah, downright sacrilegious if you ask me!
Why argue to exclude Buffy and Willow when the rest of the list is horrible? Storm did not shake Sci-Fi, her movie version stunk. And frankly, I hope there are a great deal less human scenes (yes that include Megan Fox and yes I'm a guy) in Transformers Revenge of the Fallen. Yeah, I'm gonna see it because I'm a loser who still has fond memories of watching Transformers as a kid.

But back on topic, most of the people on that list were horrible. The very fact that it excludes comic and books, really make it even worse. But even if it was just tv and movies, it leaves off key people. Turanga Leela should be there, and if its not animated, then there shouldn't be the darn puppet.

Aeryn needs to be on there. Ripley is very important, especially when it comes to influence. Plus Alien and Aliens is awesome.

But where the hell is River? Or Cameron? I demand Summer damn it!

Now excuse me, I must go off and be angry elsewhere.

[ edited by SteppeMerc on 2009-06-03 06:19 ]
My two favorite kick ass females are on that list. Number 1 and 2. This gave me a big happy.
Thank you korkster, that was my first quoted comment...

Anyone read Zelazny's "Changeling"? Much like LeGuin, a perfect mixing of these two "opposed" genres (a child swap between a world of magic and a world of advanced technology). Or "Jack of Shadows" for that matter... I'm sorry, I guess I'm grasping for kindred spirits.

Point is, where is River? Zoe? Hell, if not Aeryn, then at least Zahn or Chiana.
Yeah, Leela from Futurama should be on there.

Also, I dunno if she qualifies for this list ('cause she didn't shake up sci-fi/fantasy, 'cause the show never became as popular as it deserved), but if they were gonna do one for best realized villains in speculative fiction, for sure agreeing with BananaSandwichMan (heh, no offense, but that's an awesomely, hilariously porn-worthy name by the way) on this:

"I'd nominate Demona from the cartoon series/comic Gargoyles. The most stunning study of a good but flawed person who becomes consumed by vengeance, who loves and loses, who reforms and backslides, and the ripple effect that her monomania has across continents and millennia, from the court of Macbeth to the streets of New York."
I love Fututrama as much as the next fan of amazing, well written, often emotionally driven, hilarious, animated sci-fi spoofs, but I don't Leela should be a list. Unless it's a list of horribly self absorbed characters who can't see the error inherent in their ways. She was just a dick to Fry, like all of the time, even though it was obvious he loved her so much. Every time she'd fall in love with him it'd be for the wrong reasons and even when she did realize she loved him she'd run him off. Poor Fry.
Who cares what Pop watch blog says? Lists are both pointless and fun, and the top three on this one .... Ripley, Buffy and Starbuck, couldn't be more perfect, IMO.

Anyone read Zelazny's "Changeling"? Much like LeGuin, a perfect mixing of these two "opposed" genres (a child swap between a world of magic and a world of advanced technology). Or "Jack of Shadows" for that matter... I'm sorry, I guess I'm grasping for kindred spirits.
Archduke Sebassis | June 03, 06:37 CET


Kindred spirit here! Grinning with glee at the presence of another Zelazny fan. ;) I've read everything he's ever written, mostly multiple times.
I have this fantasy of Joss making an HBO mini-series of The Chronicles of Amber. Joss apparently likes working with his own original material, but he and Zelazny are such a perfect match, both stylistically and with the multi-layered material.
Good to see Claudia Christian there. :D
Second that, re. Claudia Christian. :)
I've never read either "Changeling" or "Jack of Shadows". Strange, since I'm also a Zelazny fan. "Amber" was great, and "Lord of Light" is among my all-time favorites.
*does the Snoopy Dance for the joy of finding Zelazny fans*

I'm ashamed to say I've yet to finish all of the Amber books (it's next on my list, I swear!). I've read everything else though, including many of his little "Illustrated Zelazny" books. Joss's character's dialogue often reminds me of Zelazny dialogue, especially Skip for some reason (I suppose the idea of a demon getting caught up in pop-culture is a very Zelazny idea).

I'm trying to put Joss actors in Zelazny stories... Fillion as Konrad(?) from "This Immortal"? Neil Patrick Harris as Sam from "Lord of Light"?
Kris, I agree 100% with Demona. I'm a huge Gargoyles fan from back in the day (the only reason I watched WB... I never watched Buffy or Angel when they were on), and I'm ashamed for not thinking of it earlier.
...others for their incredible sexiness


Thats the only reason I can stand for Barbarella being in the list. She wasn't at any moment a heroine or good female example. She did nothing but being pushed by the happenings.

More interesting to me: who are the truly great female villains? The equivalents of the Joker and Darth Vader etc?

If I could suggest a character of the same movie i criticized: The Great Tyrant.
Great female vilians include Demona from Gargoyles, (though she isn't as awesome as the Magnificent Bastard Xanatos), Azula from Avatar: Last Airbender (I figured since I'm redoing the list, I can include non Sci-Fi). I'm blanking on live action examples. Unless you count Number 6, which I wouldn't really... not really a villain.
Re: great SF villainesses... I had a feeling I was forgetting one, there just beyond the edge of my consciousness - and I was: Diana, from V. Brilliant, ruthless and ambitious beyond measure... and about to be reimagined as "Anna", played by the verse's own Morena Baccarin! Who knows how many Whedon actresses might appear on a top Sci-Fi/Fantasy Women list ten years from now? ;)

[ edited by LKW on 2009-06-03 19:27 ]
Now that I've finally read the actual list - it clearly states science fiction and fantasy. Did they edit it, or can Popwatch people not read?
Servalan from Blake's 7 was a great villain. She brightened up my 1970s.
I'm ashamed to say I've yet to finish all of the Amber books (it's next on my list, I swear!). .....

I'm trying to put Joss actors in Zelazny stories.
Archduke Sebassis | June 03, 14:27 CET


You must ... must, I say ... finish The Chronicles of Amber, then on to the Merlin series. ;)

Re. Amber casting; Nathan as Corwin, Alan Tudyk as Random. :)
Will do...

Adam Baldwin as Hell Tanner!

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