If Buffy and Willow don't belong because they are fantasy, then there are a few more people on that list that do not fall strictly into scifi. The list to me looks to be a nice, fair mix of scifi and fantasy, and lets be honest, those two genres go hand in hand. Especially since they say in the opening paragraph that this is a list of scifi & fantasy women!

wilder | June 02, 21:33 CET

Who cares and what does it matter?

Dana5140 | June 02, 21:39 CET

Anal sci-fi fans - like me!

Other than that, nobody.

brinderwalt | June 02, 21:45 CET

Sci-fi and fantasy aren't the same thing. They can be grouped together, sometimes, sure, but to say they are the same thing is like saying Star Wars is the same as Lord of the Rings.

didifallasleep | June 02, 21:46 CET

This is pointless, the article title only said Sci-Fi, but the opening paragraph clearly says:

zeitgeist | June 02, 21:50 CET

Pshaw! with just a little bit of Fie.

cronopiogal | June 02, 21:50 CET

Also, there is Sci-Fi in Buffy. Adam? All the initative's sci-fi gizmos? The many robots (April, BuffyBot, etc.)?

You could even argue for I Robot, You Jane as sci-fi.

bonzob | June 02, 21:52 CET

It is a common misconception, the grouping of the two, fuelled on by the fact that bookstores and movies are ALWAYS putting them together.

I (personally) felt that Megan Fox didn't deserve the list;
1) This is an ALL TIME list, and her appearance from a few years ago doesn't seem to have the age to be put in such a list.
2) I didn't see her as a shaker, or an icon, just Hollywood following their current formula- action movie+"hot girl"= better male appreciation.

Just my opinion.

Archduke Sebassis | June 02, 21:53 CET

I always thought that Buffy had some SCI-FI elements in the 4th season.

badwolf | June 02, 21:53 CET

Is this another case of the "let's insult Joss Whedon or his work because we know it'll get us lots and lots of pageviews"?

ETA: okay, so I actually clicked the link, and gave them the pageview, and they weren't actually insulting them at all... and so I apologise, but I do still get the feeling that there are so many articles like that at the moment, which are just so pointless and blatantly designed for hits. Perhaps I'm being a bit too harsh?

[ edited by MattK on 2009-06-02 21:59 ]

MattK | June 02, 21:56 CET

It doesn't really matter, PopWatch's basis for complaint is invalid.

zeitgeist | June 02, 21:56 CET

Buffy and Willow have impacted sci-fi even if the series they were in wasn't sci-fi in the stricter senses of the term. BtVS wanders all across the genre boundaries anyway. I wouldn't choose it as my ditch to die in for a SF/F distinction debate. It's a subversion of a classic horror trope beating up fanastical creatures on a playground that begs, borrows, and steals from every genre its creator finds nifty.

Sunfire | June 02, 22:07 CET

I think a lot of confusion arises when people try to make a distinction between sci fi and fantasy as competing genres because the word fantasy is actually a misnomer. The distinction is really between science fiction and supernatural fiction, not fantasy. Using the word fantasy just confuses things since, technically speaking, both gemres are forms of fiction that feature fantastical elements as a genre identifier. Hope that makes sense. :)

Oh, and yeah: If they were a bit more consistent in their own terminology/ the poll didn't include the word fantasy as a qualifier, they could've made a much better point.

brinderwalt | June 02, 22:23 CET

I echo the fact that this article is pointless. Apparently the writer didn't take the time to read the introduction to the list he was commenting on. *claps*

Emmie | June 02, 22:37 CET

I've added a link the list in question so people can make their own minds up. As for this particular storm in a teacup, I have a feeling it's going to be a long summer till Dollhouse airs again. Long long long long long long long summer. And it's only the start of June.

Simon | June 02, 22:41 CET

We'll be good, Simon. We promise :)

cronopiogal | June 02, 22:54 CET

l would think Buffy would fit into the sci-fi realm, her fight with Adam had sort of a sci-fi theme to it. Didn't it?

zee | June 02, 23:00 CET

Heh, re: one of the comments about Claire Bennet from Heroes. "Both her moms are cooler than she is." So true. One of those actors (Jessalyn Gilsig, might've spelled that wrong) is on Glee and was great on Nip/Tuck, at least in the one season I saw of it. The other, Ashley Crow, plays frustrated, tortured, yet caring real well and would be well utilized by Joss when Heroes concludes or is cancelled. Somehow Claire's adoptive mom still manages to be awesome, despite being surrounded by so many other examples of character assasinations and retcons (Bryan Fuller's episode was awesome and went a long way to "fixing" the few things that could be fixed, ie getting rid of Daphne and as a result bringing Matt back to reality, plus taking Tracey out of play for a bit, but while the second half of Season 3 was far better than the first half, the show still isn't "fixed". I think I'm still sticking around for Season 4 though, 'cause apparently Fuller is staying on full time and it'll be interesting to see if he can at least finish it well).

Lists...lists are pointless (aside from maybe directing new fans to worthwhile properties sometimes, I suppose), lists are fun...a lot of us here do lists when we're discussing our favorites (shows, actors, characters, title sequence, sets, etc). Lists are just lists, the internet has made them a bigger deal than they ever were in magazines like Entertainment Weekly or your newspaper's entertainment columnists' year-end Best Of lists. Ignore, enjoy, comment on, but there's no use in complaining that they exist.

[ edited by Kris on 2009-06-02 23:08 ]

Kris | June 02, 23:03 CET

Let's cause fake drama so we can get traffic to our site... wheeeee!

BrownCoat_Tabz | June 02, 23:12 CET

I have a feeling it's going to be a long summer till Dollhouse airs again. Long long long long long long long summer. And it's only the start of June.

But the start of June means the full start of CSTS, where crap tons of fans the world over will be in good spirits doing good things. Screw everything else. ;)

b!X | June 02, 23:17 CET

There's many a way to read that sentence.

Anyhoo it seemed a bit silly not to make the list the centre of attention (as it's getting a fair bit of press elsewhere) so I tweaked the entry and made the EW blog post a sidebar. Or something like that.

Simon | June 02, 23:20 CET

Plus we'll have much to discuss once Epitaph One is viewable. It'll be a shiny new toy.

Emmie | June 02, 23:22 CET

Yes I forgot about that (5 weeks to go), I wonder if we'll ever see Echo on lists like this one.

Simon | June 02, 23:27 CET

List was fine until number 11. Then it just nose dived, crashed, and the bloodied survivors were left shambling in agony.

And the lack of Firefly ladies is no good.

The Xan Man | June 02, 23:42 CET

I wonder if we'll ever see Echo on lists like this one.

If we get enough seasons, maybe. If Echo's character arc of self-discovery is cut short, if she never fully realizes herself, then I think not. Because it's more like we're watching character creation at work here, character creation and emancipation at the same time. Hopefully we'll get to see the build-up and climax as Joss plans it. Right now, I see a lot of comments where Echo is largely unidentifiable by fans, that they can't connect to her. And these lists seem all about the iconic, those clearly defined.

Emmie | June 02, 23:45 CET

Would you say it could be, perhaps, a cruel summer? ;)

I apologize Simon, I lack self control.

silent knight | June 02, 23:50 CET

Star Wars is the same as Lord of the Rings.

Sure. They're both fantasy. :)

redeem147 | June 03, 00:14 CET

And, to add further fuel to the fire, they're both founded on the supernatural. ;)

brinderwalt | June 03, 00:23 CET

More interesting to me: who are the truly great female villains? The equivalents of the Joker and Darth Vader etc?

There's Number Six I guess. Near all the Buffyverse characters were badcurious but I don't think Faith or Glory are creations as triumphant as Buffy or Ripley.

Also I'd nominate Demona from the cartoon series/comic Gargoyles. The most stunning study of a good but flawed person who becomes consumed by vengeance, who loves and loses, who reforms and backslides, and the ripple effect that her monomania has across continents and millennia, from the court of Macbeth to the streets of New York.

BananaSandwichMan | June 03, 00:23 CET

Well, redeem147, technically anything fiction would be fantasy....

;)

[ edited by didifallasleep on 2009-06-03 00:33 ]

didifallasleep | June 03, 00:33 CET

Where's the love for Farscape on these lists?

Any list like this that leaves out Aeryn Sun is nearly meaningless.

Ifwewait | June 03, 00:34 CET

I agree with everything said here. :)

Maybe Dollhouse could be included on a SyFy list. :) Or, wait. There IS "science" in it! Yay! Sci-Fi! :D

korkster | June 03, 01:04 CET

I would say that fantastical fiction (commonly referred to as "fantasy") and mundane fiction (plain ole "fiction" in today's terms) differ in that the former generally depicts events which diverge from reality to a noticeably greater extent. It's like the difference between writing a fictional account of having tea with a random friend and writing one about having tea with David Bowie - both are possible, but the second one is almost certainly a fantasy (unless you're best buds with David Bowie, of course).

brinderwalt | June 03, 01:21 CET

Megan Fox was on the list for Transformers, so the list is pretty much Fail for that reason alone...

recoil | June 03, 01:25 CET

So many strong, lovely ladies and so many are just talking semantics? Priorities, people! Just look at the pretty pictures. ;)

Tycho | June 03, 01:52 CET

What pictures?

korkster | June 03, 02:05 CET

Any list like this that leaves out Aeryn Sun is nearly meaningless.

Nearly? I'd say completely. Admittedly, I've never seen Alien, but Aeryn would be #2 on my list, right after Buffy herself.

Lirazel | June 03, 02:34 CET

I can't believe they mentioned two Dr. Who companions but left off Leela.

witchlover | June 03, 04:02 CET

Ursula LeGuin, an excellent writer of both SciFi and Fantasy, didn't like to distinguish the two. She preferred the term "speculative fiction".

witchlover | June 03, 04:09 CET

Yeah, downright sacrilegious if you ask me!

brinderwalt | June 03, 04:17 CET

Why argue to exclude Buffy and Willow when the rest of the list is horrible? Storm did not shake Sci-Fi, her movie version stunk. And frankly, I hope there are a great deal less human scenes (yes that include Megan Fox and yes I'm a guy) in Transformers Revenge of the Fallen. Yeah, I'm gonna see it because I'm a loser who still has fond memories of watching Transformers as a kid.

But back on topic, most of the people on that list were horrible. The very fact that it excludes comic and books, really make it even worse. But even if it was just tv and movies, it leaves off key people. Turanga Leela should be there, and if its not animated, then there shouldn't be the darn puppet.

Aeryn needs to be on there. Ripley is very important, especially when it comes to influence. Plus Alien and Aliens is awesome.

But where the hell is River? Or Cameron? I demand Summer damn it!

Now excuse me, I must go off and be angry elsewhere.

[ edited by SteppeMerc on 2009-06-03 06:19 ]

SteppeMerc | June 03, 04:50 CET

My two favorite kick ass females are on that list. Number 1 and 2. This gave me a big happy.

cheryl | June 03, 06:04 CET

Thank you korkster, that was my first quoted comment...

Anyone read Zelazny's "Changeling"? Much like LeGuin, a perfect mixing of these two "opposed" genres (a child swap between a world of magic and a world of advanced technology). Or "Jack of Shadows" for that matter... I'm sorry, I guess I'm grasping for kindred spirits.

Point is, where is River? Zoe? Hell, if not Aeryn, then at least Zahn or Chiana.

Archduke Sebassis | June 03, 06:37 CET

Yeah, Leela from Futurama should be on there.

Also, I dunno if she qualifies for this list ('cause she didn't shake up sci-fi/fantasy, 'cause the show never became as popular as it deserved), but if they were gonna do one for best realized villains in speculative fiction, for sure agreeing with BananaSandwichMan (heh, no offense, but that's an awesomely, hilariously porn-worthy name by the way) on this:

"I'd nominate Demona from the cartoon series/comic Gargoyles. The most stunning study of a good but flawed person who becomes consumed by vengeance, who loves and loses, who reforms and backslides, and the ripple effect that her monomania has across continents and millennia, from the court of Macbeth to the streets of New York."

Kris | June 03, 08:04 CET

I love Fututrama as much as the next fan of amazing, well written, often emotionally driven, hilarious, animated sci-fi spoofs, but I don't Leela should be a list. Unless it's a list of horribly self absorbed characters who can't see the error inherent in their ways. She was just a dick to Fry, like all of the time, even though it was obvious he loved her so much. Every time she'd fall in love with him it'd be for the wrong reasons and even when she did realize she loved him she'd run him off. Poor Fry.

The Xan Man | June 03, 11:36 CET

Who cares what Pop watch blog says? Lists are both pointless and fun, and the top three on this one .... Ripley, Buffy and Starbuck, couldn't be more perfect, IMO.


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