July 01 2009
'Always Darkest' - A Buffy Season 8 Tale.
The highly entertaining story by Joss and Jo is now available for your perusal.
This site will work and look better in a browser that supports web standards, but it is accessible to any browser or Internet device.
Whisper | July 01, 08:04 CET
ETA: Why it's not on MySpace.
[ edited by The One True b!X on 2009-07-01 17:08 ]
@theonetruebix | July 01, 08:05 CET
I appreciated seeing Tara and what she said.
CowboyCliche | July 01, 08:06 CET
And Tara blaming Buffy for her death. Of course it's a nightmare.
How can one panel be so funny and heartbreaking at the same time?
crazygolfa | July 01, 08:08 CET
Interestingly the initial location seemed to be that from the future betrayal scene from "Anywhere but here" Buffy also seemed to be similarly injured as in that scene (cuts on her arms)
mgmn | July 01, 08:08 CET
And I want a nice big copy of the wedding scene. Hilarious.
jcs | July 01, 08:09 CET
Winning lines: "What in the slashy heck? I'm the love of your lives!" and "Everybody die always."
On a totally superficial note, Jo Chen's Spike is SO PRETTY.
Enisy | July 01, 08:09 CET
mgmn | July 01, 08:11 CET
Taaroko | July 01, 08:15 CET
wiesengrund | July 01, 08:16 CET
latinandgreek | July 01, 08:17 CET
Vinity | July 01, 08:19 CET
karosurly | July 01, 08:20 CET
Mmmm-hmm.
didifallasleep | July 01, 08:20 CET
didifallasleep | July 01, 08:22 CET
Best wedding cameos: 1) SWEET, 2) The Gentlemen, 3) Clem. xD
Enisy | July 01, 08:23 CET
*glee*
menomegirl | July 01, 08:23 CET
Hilarity.
It was obviously Tara, what with the shirt and the bullet wound, but her face looks so much more like Anya. Only complaint I have as far as the art goes.
Giles_314 | July 01, 08:27 CET
TOTALLY loved this!
Beautiful artwork, as always from Jo.
Krusher | July 01, 08:28 CET
But damn they look similar.
didifallasleep | July 01, 08:28 CET
Emmie | July 01, 08:31 CET
sueworld2003 | July 01, 08:32 CET
I really hope DH comes out with a nice, oversized hardcover of S8 that includes all the main issues, all the MySpace ones, the one shot "Tales..." because I really want all this in a pretty bound print form, and I'm not buying the MySpace volumes just for one short story per issue.
pat32082 | July 01, 08:34 CET
'Slurp...glide...pant...tickle' - hahaaaaaaaaaa!!!! I can just hear the fanfics being typed!
Loved Buffy's face in that last panel!
Both Spike and Angel were very pretty - is it me or were their faces quite similar?
Thanks, Joss and Jo! Friggin' awesome!
[ edited by Shep on 2009-07-01 17:43 ]
Shep | July 01, 08:35 CET
crazygolfa | July 01, 08:44 CET
Egghead | July 01, 08:46 CET
I was thinking the same thing, but Drago wasn't bald, if I recall correctly.
wiesengrund | July 01, 08:46 CET
The Do That Girl | July 01, 08:47 CET
Sunfire | July 01, 08:47 CET
Shep | July 01, 08:49 CET
This is some great nightmare fuel. It is also at the same time great...non-nightmare fuel as well. That is excellent story telling.
(I also loved the pants flying towards Buffy in the wedding panel. Heee!)
JessicaMelusine | July 01, 08:49 CET
I bet someone already twetted Nathan Fillion to tell him he's in it.
Numfar PTB | July 01, 08:53 CET
Tara, The Gentlemen, Clem, Future Willow , Sweet, The Judge, Frankenstein (?), The Swell, Elvis, the puppet from Smile Time called Ratio, a mummy (?) and many more I can't identify.
Emmie | July 01, 08:55 CET
Rusty626 | July 01, 08:58 CET
deborahmm | July 01, 09:00 CET
Shep | July 01, 09:01 CET
It's Buffy's dream. Tara's talking to her.
Ifwewait | July 01, 09:02 CET
Sunfire | July 01, 09:02 CET
It's the only character in the 'verse that looks remotely like that drawing though. And I think it's just in there for fun. And ya know, she could have seen Ratio on his TV cartoon. ;)
Emmie | July 01, 09:07 CET
debw | July 01, 09:12 CET
Class Protector | July 01, 09:16 CET
And chucklesome.
redders | July 01, 09:18 CET
Taaroko | July 01, 09:19 CET
patxshand | July 01, 09:22 CET
thegingerpire | July 01, 09:22 CET
Emmie | July 01, 09:28 CET
Leaf | July 01, 09:32 CET
Shep | July 01, 09:36 CET
twinkiefoo | July 01, 09:42 CET
baxter | July 01, 09:48 CET
This short thingie rocks. Purple does whimsical like no other.
Perseo | July 01, 09:54 CET
Yup, mgmn, and she's dressed mostly the same, too. So I'm guessing Caleb's first line is perhaps a bit more significant than the rest of this.
In my head, I heard James and David doing the dialogue for this one. You can tell Joss did the writing... I just hope that the "sparing" use of Spike and Angel doesn't limit them to dream-sequence cameos forever. I like that they're off-stage, and that Buffy's isolation is a main theme, but boy do I miss Spike's caustic commentary.
"Everyone die always" is an excellent retort.
ManEnoughToAdmitIt | July 01, 09:56 CET
gianetta | July 01, 10:02 CET
sueworld2003 | July 01, 10:19 CET
Craig Oxbrow | July 01, 10:28 CET
The shippers who wanted real answers on the Angel and Spike stuff will probably loath it.lol
Okay,I got to admit that this was so absurd that I actually found it pretty funny myself.
Joss having some fun with the shippers,spangel included this time.
Once again it's a dream appearence of Angel and Spike and not the real thing.And once again Joss is still vague on if Buffy knows Spike is back although I get the impression after this that she does know.But still vague like the threesome in issue 3,the mention in issue 11 and 23.It can be argued both ways.That she know or dosen't.It's really vague acrossed the board on everything.It doesn't really tell us anything on the questions people wanted answered.You're sort of left to decide for yourself.
But after this story,I personally think she does unless it gets stated otherwise later in season 8 or an interview.
And my god,Jo Chen's art is wonderful.
I should have Buffy Season 8 #26 and Angel #23 in a little while.
[ edited by Buffyfantic on 2009-07-01 19:32 ]
Buffyfantic | July 01, 10:30 CET
Zannadoo | July 01, 10:38 CET
Amaranth | July 01, 10:41 CET
THIS. That line right there is why this ties in perfectly to the Retreat arc. Perfect.
Emmie | July 01, 10:43 CET
I loved the "shipping" coverage. Honestly, I don't think either one will ever come out on top. She loves them both in different ways.
luv4whedon | July 01, 10:47 CET
luv4whedon | July 01, 10:51 CET
wiesengrund | July 01, 10:53 CET
And Joss, I'm speechless XD
I hope this will be on the TPB.
Angel TheVampire | July 01, 11:13 CET
You could try contracting the artist herself(MySpace or her own site), see if your local comic book store has one or there's the Fox Studio Art Store but the posters there are very pricey indeed.
Simon | July 01, 11:16 CET
luv4whedon | July 01, 11:19 CET
Simon | July 01, 11:21 CET
So made of win!
Awesome art, I want a poster with that first page (and the other two..)!!
Great, just great!
JotheCat | July 01, 11:23 CET
geratongs3000 | July 01, 11:31 CET
korkster | July 01, 11:44 CET
luv4whedon | July 01, 11:51 CET
Simon | July 01, 11:53 CET
@theonetruebix | July 01, 11:58 CET
Also, I agree with Taaroko , I think the purple thingo on the left is the thricewice in his real form, not Ratio the puppet.
Bluey | July 01, 12:05 CET
Taaroko | July 01, 12:06 CET
Either that or Caleb's standing in for something else that's similar. Could go either way. Can't wait until I read Jane's arc, and see just how this ties in.
ManEnoughToAdmitIt | July 01, 12:06 CET
And am I the only one who loves the very clean boy line? XD
druzilla | July 01, 12:29 CET
AthenaMuze | July 01, 12:29 CET
Seriously, how great that was? Such fun! Glorious Spangel! And Jo Chen draws VERY pretty Angel and Spike, I wish she could do it again.
Wedding cameos! Tara! Oh my. And the best part - it's all a nightmare. Great morning look on Buffy as well, heh.
Nata | July 01, 12:54 CET
And heck Frankenstein's Monster is probably real in the Buffyverse, and I don't mean just my fic version either.
You can have Jumpsuit ELvis; I have the real version on my calendar in my office cubicle. (At home I have the Buffy calendar; this month is Emma making that chair feel lucky.)
DaddyCatALSO | July 01, 13:07 CET
luv4whedon | July 01, 13:07 CET
[ edited by topolino on 2009-07-01 22:14 ]
topolino | July 01, 13:14 CET
Joss is not afraid to play with this can of worms, and all I can say is "respect" - because it's not an easy subject, maybe not as sticky for this fandom as we do have Buffy, Willow and other terrific female characters here, but for other fandoms... Hmm.
And boy does Buffy carry a lot inside her - and her inner demons are as scary as ever. I suspected as much in this season. Here's hoping for payoff!
Nata | July 01, 13:17 CET
luv4whedon | July 01, 13:18 CET
Lirazel | July 01, 13:26 CET
But I am a little disappointed that this is at least the 3rd time we've seen Buffy's dreams in S8 so far, and despite all the weird, off-the-wall cameos, still no Cheese Man!
dingoes8 | July 01, 13:40 CET
embers | July 01, 13:45 CET
And that's not Frankenstein, it's Lurch from The Addams Family. The Mummy is a shout-out to the original Universal monster. Ratio/Kenny looks like a cross between the two. The demons in the bridesmaid outfits are funny.
I liked the "betrayal" set-up from Anywhere But Here. And this probably means we can cross off Caleb as a suspect.
As for the slashy stuff... Doesn't float my boat, but Jo Chen does draw pretty versions of them both.
Though I worry that Joss has so much fun with this comedy-heavy/taking-things-lightly stuff, that he's making this season significantly less hard-hitting and dramatic than the show was. I really am starting to miss the real dramatic stuff.
I still think Connor's death/comeback was the only thing that's even come close to moving me in these comics, which is a shame. Buffy season 8 needs to start dealing and get serious.
[ edited by NileQT87 on 2009-07-01 23:04 ]
NileQT87 | July 01, 13:59 CET
Dana5140 | July 01, 14:15 CET
Amen, bro.
Small Blue Thing | July 01, 14:16 CET
luv4whedon | July 01, 14:45 CET
menomegirl | July 01, 14:48 CET
This web comic was a comedic story but there is more going on underneath that ties into the Retreat arc in a big way.
Spoilers for issue 26.
The idea that magic is inside all the slayers including Buffy and this magic is a bad thing.That it makes Buffy and the slayers dirty.That it will lead to the downfall of Willow.That Twilight can use this magic to track them.
The Retreat arc seems like it's going to be about Buffy trying to surpress the magic inside herself,the slayers and Willow.This dirty thing.It's why Buffy retreats them all to Oz's sanctuary.A place to be free of magic and the use of it.I see how,"Always Darkest" and where Buffy's head is at in it leads into the "Retreat" arc.
[ edited by Buffyfantic on 2009-07-02 00:11 ]
Buffyfantic | July 01, 15:08 CET
Small Blue Thing | July 01, 15:35 CET
I have to say, this story reads as comedic fluff and hilarity, but it's a wacked out dream sequence which means that the source of all these situations in Buffy's mind is downright heartbreaking. If anyone was complaining about not understanding Buffy during Season 8, this 3-pager is the definition of insight into her fears and guilt complex.
Emmie | July 01, 15:37 CET
Ok, I think my head spun around several times after seeing it but.. I loved it! Please let this be in the paperback edition.
As for the comedy comic issue.. I do have a hard time reconciling the comics with the series. They may be the continuation but I still don't really think of them that way, mainly because of some of the sillier plot and character points, so I've decided to just sit back and enjoy. The medium isn't a problem for me though, I've found a few non-canon Buffy comics in the past moving, Night of a Thousand Vampires being the one that comes to mind at this second.
Leaf | July 01, 15:44 CET
Having a total fanboy moment over the art alone right now. :P
Rhodey | July 01, 16:19 CET
Nata,
That's an interesting point. I've long been curious why there are so many girls who write M/M slash. Don't get me wrong, I think it's great, and there is definitely the subtext to work with. But when I've asked girls who exclusively write M/M slash why they do it, they usually respond with things like "Well, this way the relationship is more about equality," or something to the effect of power dynamics.
I find these sorts of answers incredibly depressing - as though there could never be an equal dynamic between a male and female. I certainly don't think that's true.
Anyway, this was fun. I wish Jo Chen would illustrate every comic! I know it would be too much work, but gah. So beautiful!
ShanshuBugaboo | July 01, 16:27 CET
Lirazel | July 01, 18:05 CET
Tara's inclusion is the best part.
UnpluggedCrazy | July 01, 18:16 CET
As a fan of M/M slash, I don't think it's about misogeny or excluding women, at least not to me. I often go for slash pairings because the characters have a tension and a history that hetero pairings don't so much. Because the characters haven't been presented as love interests in canon, their relationship has been developed in different ways, and has more to it that just the romantic side. The tension between a character and his best friend or enemy, for me at least, makes for a far more interesting story than one about two characters who canon presents as a one true pairing -- because it's possible to come up with complications that are less external or contrived. They already have a history that the story can be built from, that's something outside the romance. And I just find that more interesting to read (or write). That's not to say I don't enjoy some hetero pairings (or femslash pairings); it's just that, often, I find the slash pairing more interesting than the alternatives.
snowinhell | July 01, 18:52 CET
Suzie | July 01, 19:07 CET
Just like if you're reading Wesley/Lilah, Fred is always going to be there. :)
[ edited by menomegirl on 2009-07-02 04:53 ]
menomegirl | July 01, 19:51 CET
I've no problem with that reason :)
ShanshuBugaboo | July 01, 21:21 CET
I mean we're almost at the finish and we still don't even know if Buffy knows that Spike's back.
I would like to atleast see Buffy in a happy relationship before the end comes.
Vergil | July 01, 21:42 CET
Let Down | July 01, 22:25 CET
snowinhell | July 02, 03:52 CET
I don't doubt the "at least not for me" part, but have you ever spent any time on a site dedicated specifically to slash, especially in this 'verse? Not naming names because of the policy against trash-talking about other sites, but the open hatred for the women who come between the male pairings, is ... um, off-putting, to use the mildest term I can come up with.
And "hatred" (for the women) is definitely not overstating it. (I'm not talking about anyone who writes slash fic, I've read very little because it's not really my thing.)
Shey | July 02, 00:19 CET
"Shipping wars and Deep Hidden Symbolism aside, this webcomic left me wondering one thing - why didn't we get to see the Spike/Angel kiss?
I know the point was Buffy's reaction to it, but it wouldn't have been hard to position them front and center, with her reaction in the background. Season Eight has already shown multiple times that it's okay, great, and even vitally important to the story to show two girls getting it on in sensuous detail. What's wrong with showing a little lip lock between two guys?
Or is this a double standard...?"
Gotta say that after thinking about it I agree with them.
sueworld2003 | July 02, 00:24 CET
[ edited by Let Down on 2009-07-02 11:20 ]
Let Down | July 02, 01:19 CET
While yes, the reader can't help but fill in the obvious occurring off-panel, it's sorta weird in light of that time we saw Buffy and Satsu in bed. I know that was also mostly off-panel and I can't be sure they actually are shown kissing on page but in any case that was still more titillating than this is.
...Wow, that was sort of a tangent since I did dig even this short foray into Buffy's psyche. I was just momentarily distracted since I am aware of how Jo Chen has done some manhua-esque yaoi sketches. (Including one of characters rather similar to Nightwing and Robin with the most hilarious sketch of Batman).
orangewaxlion | July 02, 02:19 CET
Oh, Buffy. All that dithering over Spike and Angel- just drove them together.
missb | July 02, 02:53 CET
The perception of the homoerotic in this series seems to be
in large part led by what each veiwer would like to see.
Those that want the slashy stuff think this didn't show enough as compared to the two lesbian scenes. The lesbian scenes did not get the "smooch sproing ruba ruba glide[!] tickle".
espalier | July 02, 04:43 CET
baxter | July 02, 05:03 CET
Lord I wish his character been a dream instead of reality....:0
sueworld2003 | July 02, 05:13 CET
I'm a person who enjoys slash, and het, as long as it remains true to character.
redeem147 | July 02, 05:52 CET
jcs | July 02, 06:04 CET
Still I too would have liked to see what was happening, especially as Jo Chen drew the two of them so beautifully
mgmn | July 02, 06:43 CET
So while the lack of a visual was disappointing here, in light of that larger cultural context, it does make sense in the specific context. The coats flying into frame and cartoony sound effects are tired-Buffy-brain-hilarious in a way that an actual smoldering make-out scene wouldn't accomplish.
I thought they did a really good job with the Satsu/Buffy romance. The absence of any gay guy romance in what we see of Buffy's universe is still pretty striking. I've been hoping to see better from Dollhouse.
Sunfire | July 02, 07:20 CET
You gettin' those vibes, too, huh?
Rowan Hawthorn | July 02, 08:27 CET
Whatever he does, he's going to piss people off.
Simon | July 02, 08:54 CET
Oh I agree, but hey, it's his toys, his rules.
sueworld2003 | July 02, 09:12 CET
espalier | July 02, 10:33 CET
;)
*giggles*
didifallasleep | July 02, 11:14 CET
I really wish Jo Chen/Darkhorse would release a poster of that wedding scene. I'd proudly hang such a thing in my room. Or build a mantle, and place it on top. Or near the top. Somewhere up-like.
Astonishing_Chaos | July 02, 11:45 CET
mgmn; In "Resltess" Willow and tara had broken off the kiss before the camera got onto them. Nothing was actually shown.
As to waiting for joss to do serious m/m, we sure as shootin' won't settle it:-) :-) :-).
DaddyCatALSO | July 02, 11:47 CET
Sue, I see how that can grate a bit. I understand. But what if it's just not his story to tell? Joss is clearly fascinated with writing women's issues. Strong female characters. The first lesbian kiss on television. And then he segues to more universal types of commentary - slavery, morality, family, friendship, sacrifice, heroism, villainy, corruption. Just because he did and continues to portray an important homosexual relationship between two women (Willow and Tara, now Willow and Kennedy), does this now mean he's obliged to also portray a homosexual relationship between two men? It feels like the fact that Joss did show a healthy lesbian relationship means he's automatically inherited the expectation from fans to do the same for homosexual male relationships.
The small ironic part of me wonders if expecting Joss to do this (portray a male homosexual relationship) is more likely to have him not do it (not that what we're expecting would really weigh that heavily). Because he seems to enjoy confounding expectations - e.g. the sleeper agent mislead in Dollhouse's Man on the Street. Whedon deliberately set that up to make us think 'oh god, Joss is about to kill this character because she's happy and had sex'. Essentially taking what we were expecting of him and turning it around for a powerful dramatic effect.
Not to say that Whedon portraying a male homosexual relationship in a story wouldn't be worthwhile (clearly it would be), but I don't understand how his not doing this can be judged as a failure on his part.
I'm a bit baffled by this feeling of fan entitlement to what Whedon chooses to tell in his stories. And the resulting disappointment and even resentment when he doesn't live up to specific fan expectations. His "disinterest" in telling the story - couldn't it just simply be it's not his story to tell? Why does it have to be his story to tell?
[ edited by Emmie on 2009-07-03 01:36 ]
Emmie | July 02, 16:32 CET
Character bashing is not limited to m/m slash. I frequently run across Bangel and Spuffy fanfiction that bash the character of Riley. There's also a lot of Kennedy-bashing among Willow/Tara shippers. (And those examples are just off the top of my head)
Have you ever visited an SPN slash site? Our 'verse is tame in comparison. :)
menomegirl | July 02, 16:39 CET
I think people need their heads screwed on if they honestly thought they’d show Angel and Spike make-out. I mean c’mon? It was a bit of fun, a good romp. I’d think slash fans would consider themselves lucky that they got this much.
Joss shouldn’t have to tell a story about two homosexual males if he doesn’t want to. And I get the sneaking suspicion some people want him to just so they have something they consider nice to look at. I don't think it's a coincidence a lot of this sentiment comes from the slash portion of the audience. Ya know what, I’d love to see an Australian character pop up in this series but I’m not gonna be offended that it hasn’t, and probably never will happen.
Besides remember what Eliza said in that recent article about Dollhouse? Didn’t she say we’d have both gay and lesbian storylines this year?
vampmogs | July 02, 17:26 CET
Wow that was really condescending.
menomegirl | July 02, 17:50 CET
vampmogs, I make joking references to slashy male subtext but I'm not really into the stuff myself. That said, Australians are a nationality and not what we'd call a special class here in the U.S. It's not really a fair comparison to make. It's not about a pretty thing to look at for me. It's about the dearth of gay relationships on tv. It's getting better but only by degrees, it seems.
Although Angel and Spike are, as always, very pretty.
Sunfire | July 02, 18:04 CET
Agreed. :)
menomegirl | July 02, 18:47 CET
Why? If you're a slash fan and a fan of Angel/Spike in particular then why shouldn't you feel lucky you got something in the comic? I'm pretty interested in Buffy/Faith and if it had been them in the place of Angel/Spike I'd have been very chuffed. It's very rare slash fans get anything more than a comment or at best... a hand hold. The fact that they got this which was probably the slashiest thing ever in Buffyverse *canon*, should be something they’re happy about. I don’t feel it’s condescending at all to point that out.
It just feels like there's this "I want more, more, more" attitude. If we had seen them kiss would there have then been complaints we didn't see the sex that inevitably happened off to the side of the wedding scene? It’s just like whatever he does isn’t enough.
Sunfire- My point about the "Australian" thing was more to highlight that every fan probably has a type of character that they'd like to be represented. However, it's one thing to hope you'll get that and it's another to criticise Joss for not giving it to you. He doesn't have to explore every type of person there is in this world. When people say we haven't seen any gay characters in this verse, we have. We had Larry before any lesbian on the show. But then you hear people say that "he doesn't count" because he doesn't satisfy their expectations for how much focus should be placed on it. But he does count. He was male, he was gay and he was out there. He fits all the criteria.
The only reason Willow got more attention was because Willow was a main character on the show. Now people are wanting Joss to bring in a male gay character for the sole purpose of exploring those issues. It seems like a pretty flimsy reason to introduce a character to me. Surely they must have more of a basis and reason for being on the show other than their sexuality. Or to tick off some kind of checklist of all the things Joss must explore in Btvs.
I know that the show Brothers & Sisters has at least three gay male characters. Is it doing something wrong that it hasn't included a lesbian into the mix yet?
[ edited by vampmogs on 2009-07-03 04:00 ]
[ edited by vampmogs on 2009-07-03 04:03 ]
[ edited by vampmogs on 2009-07-03 04:08 ]
[ edited by vampmogs on 2009-07-03 04:10 ]
vampmogs | July 02, 18:58 CET
Back to the comic: these three pages are brilliant. Upon re-reading them, I have to say that I think they're the best thing to come out of S8 yet because (to me) for the first time, it felt like "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" the series. Jo Chen's artwork is exquisite and the dialogue is Whedon at his best. It's extremely comical on the surface but there's a landmine of meaning underneath that. I can't wait to read the rest of the ecomics to come.
menomegirl | July 02, 20:02 CET
I agree with you about these three pages. I think they’re bloody brilliant. I’m a big fan of s8 but Always Darker has just moved up my personal ranks a lot. It’s easily in my top three “episodes” of the season now.
I love how this links up with Buffy’s threesome fantasy in The Long Way Home. And how now she doesn’t view it as a realistic dream. She’s so disappointed in herself and she feels so “dirty” that if Angel and Spike saw her now they’d want nothing to do with her. They’re “clean boys” opposed to her, who’s been guilty of bank robberies and the willingness to let innocents die for the bigger picture. She has no respect for herself right now and my heart breaks for her, but it’s brilliant storytelling.
[ edited by vampmogs on 2009-07-03 05:22 ]
vampmogs | July 02, 20:22 CET
So you say. But don't all fans have that attitude when it comes to their particular interests?
No he doesn't imo. He was barely in the show before being killed off. He was hardly used let alone explored or central to any kind of plot the same way as the awful Andrew has been.
I'm afraid that It does matter how much screen time a characters got. Otherwise you really don't get the time to understand and explore whats going on there. Larry really didn't have that, and I'm afraid it also didn't help matters that a lot of his interactions onscreen were treated in a humorous manner so they could set up a joke for Xander.
I have a writer friend of mine who's gay and who's a big JW fan, but the one thing he finds disappointing about in Whedons stories it that he doesn't seem to treat gay men with the same seriousness as gay women, and I'm afraid I couldn't come up with any argument to say otherwise.
sueworld2003 | July 02, 23:54 CET
Simon | July 03, 02:15 CET
As to Spike and Angel nothing has been properly explored to say they are anything more then just hetro. One half finished sentence from Spike doesn't mean anything I'm afraid.
It seems Joss prefers to deal with these issues in either a humorous way, or as just coy hints.
sueworld2003 | July 03, 02:45 CET
Simon | July 03, 02:57 CET
Whats wrong with having a male gay character treated the same as any other rather then just treated as a joke, or some thing 'special' to be hinted at.
sueworld2003 | July 03, 03:08 CET
I'm thinking specifically of Torchwood. I thought most of the same sex scenes came from the "will this do?" school of bad writing. The slash fan in me thinks that The Doctor/Jack scenes in Nu Who series 1 and 3 were far better written in terms of same sex relationships.
Simon | July 03, 03:20 CET
sueworld2003 | July 03, 03:33 CET
See I would disagree with that. I think the writers a lot of the time couldn't get past the "it's after 9pm, let's have two men snog for the sake of it" without any though of how it would impact on the characters or the plot. Torchwood should be praised for being a trailblazer for gay relationships in genre shows but damned for the implementation. Maybe this third series will be different but that fact that it's on BBC 1 makes me think not.
And in returning to Joss as I did hear that this is a blog about his work, I think the proof of the pudding will be in the next couple of seasons of Dollhouse. It will be interesting to see if male Clients order male Dolls.
Simon | July 03, 03:56 CET
As to Dollhouse, well we'll see, but I for one won't be holding my breath I'm afraid.
sueworld2003 | July 03, 04:10 CET
I'm trying to let down my personal preferences for Spike as a character in this topic, seriously, but a wrong choice here could affect even they way Buffy has grown up along the whole story. Even if she chose Angel eventually _I would see is as a mistake, but narratively honest and committed by the writers. Their girl, their choice. OK for me.
But anyway, as all I have seen of her, I just can't see Buffy just playing flirts. Not now, not after 'Chosen', not after S08 #2. Not after a year of relative freedom to think by herself.
By the way, Simon, on Dollhouse, I think they spoke once about two twin boys, offered to a male client. Dollhouse #2, maybe?
Small Blue Thing | July 03, 04:15 CET
I think it was in 1x03 "Stage Fright", and I think Adelle was just referring to "the twins", no gender specified. But Claire did mention that they have a lot of same sex engagements later. And Joss and Eliza have both mentioned that same sex relationships are something they wanted to do in S1. They didn't have the time to do it, so I guess it's very possible that we're gonna see something in season 2.
wiesengrund | July 03, 04:53 CET
Maybe a gay male couple just doesn't fit into the stories that Joss wants to tell, which are mainly centered around female empowerment.
Did anyone ever have issues with Alan Ball for featuring a gay male couple in a prominent role for the entire run of Six Feet Under, but no lesbian couples?
And to agree with the same person I disagreed with ;).....
Exactly .... I didn't ever feel that Jack/Ianto was gratuitous or any different than any other relationship/liaison on TW.
Shey | July 04, 02:00 CET
Have you ever visited an SPN slash site? Our 'verse is tame in comparison. :)
menomegirl | July 03, 01:39 CET
You clearly missed the part of my post that said "I'm not talking about fanfic". Rather, commenting on the hate talk about women, on websites devoted to slash.
And no - I've never heard of SPN. My point was that as someone who avoids sites where hate talk is allowed, the worst I've ever run across in my "perusing before crossing it off my list of places I want to visit", was the hate talk about hetro female characters, on a M/M slash site.
Which goes all the way back to an early comment about a link between M/M slash and misogyny.
Which is twisty-turney in the extreme, as a way of trying to clarify a point I was making. :_)
Shey | July 04, 02:13 CET
Well, to be fair, in case of SFU we're talking about 63 episodes, while the Whedonverse comprises 269 episodes, at least 2 movies, and a pretty big bunch of comics. I think after a few years of True Blood without any lesbian relationships, people will start question Alan Ball too.
(Not that I am particularly annoyed by Joss' lack of gay male couples. I just don't think the lack of criticism towards Ball is playing on the same turf.)
wiesengrund | July 04, 02:14 CET
True, and SFU also lacked the myriad of characers in the Whedonverse and did have a lesbian recurring character and did explore the possible lesbian feelings of one of the shows main characters. And I think there also was a lesbian wedding somewhere along the way. So I don't think the subject was in any way avoided.
Never felt Joss goes out of his way to avoid the subject either, but for Ball I think it's even less true.
the Groosalugg | July 04, 03:14 CET
Unless of course they're portrayed as a running joke=Andrew.
[ edited by sueworld2003 on 2009-07-04 22:43 ]
sueworld2003 | July 04, 10:11 CET
Sunfire | July 04, 12:36 CET
sueworld2003 | July 04, 13:42 CET
And on the Lorne question I thought the Pylea stuff was a pretty blatant metaphor for him being gay
Let Down | July 04, 17:13 CET
sueworld2003 | July 04, 17:55 CET
Let Down | July 04, 18:25 CET
Now that I think about it, however, it would be really intriguing to see a remake of an episode such as "Restless" with every previously subtle thing turned into fourth-wall-breaking exposition.
I would add a winking emoticon, but I've never gotten over the dislike of the things I developed when a BD bit me as a small child.
Mercenary | July 06, 02:02 CET
That would be wonderful for Dollhouse fans. :)
Of course, not all of us are Dollhouse fans.
menomegirl | July 06, 12:14 CET
[ edited by vampmogs on 2009-07-07 04:08 ]
vampmogs | July 06, 19:08 CET
The memory of some of Eco's costumes still haunt me to this day. *g*
sueworld2003 | July 07, 01:47 CET
As a gay male fan of everything Joss Whedon has ever created, I can say that while it is frustrating to realize there have been no lasting openly male homosexual characters in the 'verse, it's not something that greatly affects my experience. I like the subtle references to Spike and Angel's checkered past, or maybe it's more of a plaid. I was thrilled to learn that 'sly' was Firefly slang for 'gay' when the crew of Serenity stayed with Nandi. And I actually adore Andrew, even though his redemption has taken longer than Faith's, and somehow included making facetime with a couple of blonde ladies in Rome.
I'm optimistic for the storylines that will take place during Dollhouse's second season, especially since Eliza made a shout-out for gay and lesbian issues as well as child soldiers in Uganda. This show, especially since it's more grounded in the 'real' world and lacking in supernatural elements, is more likely to be seen as socio-political commentary than previous Whedon works because the parallels are more clear.
CrazyKidBen | July 07, 15:59 CET
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