Well I'm a little disappointed that the Spike series won't start until 2010. And this Eddie Hope business confuses me.

Coupled with the tragedy of Aftermath it all makes me nervous. I thought After the Fall was excellent, I wish we could just stick to Lynch and Urru for all the Angel stuff.

Xane | July 26, 16:40 CET

Well IDW were nice enough to devote a panel solely to their Angel so it deserves a front page entry of its own.

Simon | July 26, 16:49 CET

On first read am not happy at all about this whole "Willingham confirmed that Angel would be disappearing from the pages of his own book" thing.

I hope this is not for the whole 6 issues cos then I will not be a happy bunny!

angeliclestat | July 26, 17:00 CET

Eeek. Any Angelverse comics not written by Lynch are suspect in my book. I'm still reeling from the aftermath of Aftermath.

CowboyCliche | July 26, 17:12 CET

Buffy season 8?



Have you read Peter David and Scott Tipton's Angelverse stories? They are very good indeed.

Simon | July 26, 17:14 CET

I also assumed that the reason Angel wouldn't be in his own book is because he'll be over on Buffy by then. I'm excited about a Connor story and even more excited to see what Brian will do with Spike next year. All of this stuff was good news for me except for Scott Lobdell's involvemet because, well, I don't like him very much (as a writer). Otherwise, it all sounds gravy.

I wish we could call a moratorium on the Aftermath bashing. You all hated it. Message received. The arc is over so can we stop with the dead horse beating? Please?

project bitsy | July 26, 17:25 CET

The two part Angel/Spike story in issue 26-27 sounds like fun.The whole concept of Angel and Spike going to the SDCC breaks the forth wall I think in a really fun way.I can imagine the meta commentary on conventions already.lol I can already picture Angel's and Spike's reaction to some of the stuff that goes on at cons.

I also like how it leads into the annual where we'll actually get to see the Angel movie.

I guess Urru's first art from the Spike series wasn't shown at the panel?Brian wasn't sure the other day if it would be or not.Also when in 2010 is the Spike series looking likely.Early 2010 or later in the year?

I still want more info on Angel being absent during part of Willingham's run.I wonder if it's sort of like what is going on in the Superman and Batman books at DC where Superman and Batman(Bruce Wayne) are out of the main titles themselves and are somewhere else(Superman on New Krypton,Bruce Wayne thought dead but really in a cave in the past) but there presence is felt?

I love the idea of Connor taking center stage though if Angel isn't there but I really want to know where Angel is going to be and what he's going to be up to.

Does anybody think the Eddie Hope backup is picking up on some of the stuff from Kelley Armstrong's arc with the whole people remain tainted by the effects of Hell on Earth angle?

ETA

I hadn't thought of Buffy Season 8 being the reason for Angel's absence from his own book in Willingham's run until you guys brought it up.I suppose we'll see.

[ edited by Buffyfantic on 2009-07-26 18:05 ]

Buffyfantic | July 26, 17:54 CET

I think the bashing is going to continue, until IDW possibly retcon the entire story. I'm still hoping for them to take away the '5' from the hardback out of respect for the fanbase, and I really, really hope that Dez and James are gone for good...

Rosenberg | July 26, 18:33 CET

Ooh, I love the idea that Angel's out of his own book because he's over in Buffy...!!!! (Err, the comic I mean..not "in"...you know...although that would be awesome....)

ANYWAY...

I have a question: Spike appeared in both Buffy and Angel the tv series. So if IDW weren't publishing their own Spike series, could Dark Horse do one? Harmony last appeared on screen on Angel but has become a recurring player in Buffy, while Drusilla was last seen (as her real self) on Buffy but is resurfacing in the Angel comic. Anyone know?

Riker | July 26, 19:14 CET

I don't think Dark Horse would be allowed to publish there own Spike comic series.They can use characters like Angel and Spike in guest appearences but IDW has the license rights to publish the Angel characters in there own series.Dark Horse can't put out actual Angel comics series or Spike comic series anymore since letting the rights to Angel go and IDW picking it up.They can only use Angel and Spike for guest appearences in the Buffy comics.Characters like Harmony and Dru can float back and forth as needed too.

[ edited by Buffyfantic on 2009-07-26 19:23 ]

Buffyfantic | July 26, 19:21 CET

Brian Lynch sort of clarified Angel's supposed absence on the IDW forums: Angel will be in the book, just not with the other characters. He'll have a separate storyline that'll take him away from the group, hence Connor's taking-over as the Crown Prince.

Perseo | July 26, 19:22 CET

Thanks for that Perseo. I'm actually happy to hear that. It was weird to think of the Angel comic without Angel, and I'm not into the Buffy comics too much so I didn't really want him for any extended story line there.

Xane | July 26, 19:25 CET

But Spike originated on Buffy, Buffyfanatic. That's why I asked. He's not an original Angel character like Fred.

Disappointing news about Angel not being off in the Buffy books.

Riker | July 26, 19:59 CET

Yeah,but the rights to Spike are a part of the Angel license which is why Dark Horse can't do a Spike series.When Spike was moved to Angel as a regular,he became part of the Angel licenses.

Again,this doesn't mean Spike and Angel can't make guest appearences in the Buffy comics.They've already have via the dream appearences in issue 3,20,and the web comic.And they could still show up in another dream or for real before season 8 is over or in season 9.This just means Dark Horse can't put out actual Angel comics or Spike comics.

Buffyfantic | July 26, 20:15 CET

When the contract is up for renewal on the Angel license, I'd like to see Dark Horse outbid IDW (assuming it's still a hot property by then, in whichever year they expire). They can steal Brian Lynch too.

Given how low everyone regards "Aftermath", I was kinda hoping someone (Joss, Brian Lynch, IDW editors) would clarify if it counted and possibly just give it a softcover release instead of putting it out as Hardcover Volume 5. But I pre-ordered, so...guess I'll see how it is for myself. I'm bracing for really bad.

Re: bashing story arcs. Fans are entitled to vent their frustrations. Even Buffy Season 7 bashing comes up every so often around here (although personally I more or less stopped because the comics have gone a long way toward, well, being a better season overall so that the franchise didn't end on a low note, aside from its series finale and a few choice S7 episodes...sorry), so I wouldn't expect "Aftermath"-bashing to cease so soon after its conclusion.

As much as I like Buffy Season 8, I thought Buffy was concluded. Angel was the property that didn't see proper closure, but I guess Joss must have really felt he had something to say with more Buffy over telling more Angel stories (or Dark Horse was maybe going to do a Buffy continuation with or without him due to a deal with Fox ? And Joss didn't want to let it happen without his guidance ?). 'Cause otherwise, it would've made more sense to jump at the chance to do Angel Season 6 and finish it off and let the Dark Horse Buffy comics be non-canon as far as he was concerned.

Kris | July 26, 20:35 CET

Although it was bad, I consider Aftermath canon. It can still be canon but never be mentioned again, which is what I'm hoping for.

Hopefully Willingham (or Lynch, whoever gets there first) decides to use Kate and perhaps return her to form, in a sense. And I'd like at least a one-line explanation for what happened to Des and that angel guy, but that's as far as it should go.

Kris, I think Buffy got more of Joss' attention because it's the "mother ship", if you will.

Riker | July 26, 21:19 CET

The problem with the comic book format is that the visually challenged (like myself) can't enjoy them. I can see the pictures okay, but I can't read the copy, even with strong reading glasses. :(

Peanut Noir | July 26, 22:51 CET

We had a discussion about that very issue a while back. A couple of solutions presented themselves in the comments.

http://whedonesque.com/comments/16590

Simon | July 26, 23:05 CET

Thanks Simon. I didn't see that thread (no pun intended). For me, it's more a matter of the colors and fonts canceling each other out, which makes it difficult to read. For those whose vision impairments are not due to advanced age (*ahem* age >30), some of the solutions offered may really help. In my case, it probably means buying a (much) stronger set of readers.

Peanut Noir | July 26, 23:33 CET

Kris said: "When the contract is up for renewal on the Angel license, I'd like to see Dark Horse outbid IDW."

I think I would shed actual tears if that happened.

patxshand | July 27, 01:34 CET

IDW is going overboard with Angel and spin offs. It's a mess and hard to follow, and Aftermath was terrible. I don't even know if I care enough anymore. Buffy is thankfully very focused and not going crazy with spin offs and adaptions of episodes, etc. I like what Darkhorse is doing over what IDW is doing lately and part of me wishes Darkhorse owned Angel.

GhostsWatcher | July 27, 02:56 CET

Although it was bad, I consider Aftermath canon. It can still be canon but never be mentioned again, which is what I'm hoping for.

I'm just curious as to why you see them as canon. Joss hasn't ever said they were canon or approved them as far as we know

Let Down | July 27, 03:16 CET

Because they're a continuation of the main canon story, Let Down.

If Aftermath weren't canon, it would have been told in its own separate miniseries, not the main title.

You don't just have, say, 6 issues of canon, then 5 issues of non-canon, then jump back to canon, and so on and so forth.

Riker | July 27, 04:28 CET

"Kris said: "When the contract is up for renewal on the Angel license, I'd like to see Dark Horse outbid IDW."

I think I would shed actual tears if that happened.
patxshand | July 27, 01:34 CET"

I totally agree with patxshand. With the exception of Aftermath I have been very pleased with IDW and their handling of Angel and co.

Xane | July 27, 07:17 CET

I'd hate It If Darkhorse got their hands on the Angel license too, but then I don't think that much of season 8 so far really.

sueworld2003 | July 27, 09:59 CET

Oh ya...Angel should totally stay with IDW. That isnt even an issue. I love when people complain that they are doing "too much" with the franchise. Compared to DH who was doing "too little" and gave up the franchise.

angeliclestat | July 27, 10:20 CET

Angel should move back to Dark Horse so both he and Buffy can be under the same roof. They haven't "been together" since May 2001.

Riker | July 27, 14:56 CET

If I had to pick, I'd rather Buffy move to IDW.

Xane | July 27, 15:03 CET

Because they're a continuation of the main canon story, Let Down.

If Aftermath weren't canon, it would have been told in its own separate miniseries, not the main title.

You don't just have, say, 6 issues of canon, then 5 issues of non-canon, then jump back to canon, and so on and so forth.

But canon doesn't mean a continuation of a story. It means the official story and when it comes to Angel a story is only officially part of the story if Joss says so

If I decided right now to write a sequel to Serenity that would be a continuation but it obviously wouldn't be canon. Same thing here - Kelley Armstrong and the IDW people are doing a non-canonical continuation of the canonical After the Fall. But it's not canon even if they say so and even if they keep numbering it like it's a continuation. Now if Joss came along and said all the issues after AtF are canon then it's a whole other story

[ edited by Let Down on 2009-07-27 16:34 ]

Let Down | July 27, 16:34 CET

"I love when people complain that they are doing "too much" with the franchise. Compared to DH who was doing "too little" and gave up the franchise."

Dark Horse editor Scott Allie has admitted that it was a mistake to let the Angel license go, but since the two volumes of the Dark Horse version of Angel apparently didn't sell hugely...I think Scott said something about underestimating its value at the time. Post-Season 5, with no other avenue for the show to continue (no direct-to-DVD deals were able to be worked out), I think the comic's attractiveness shot up hugely.

While I like IDW's production values (the "After the Fall" hardcovers are a beautiful thing), I would rather have the two properties under one banner again. Although The WB allowed Angel to appear on Buffy when it was ending on UPN and UPN allowed Willow to appear on Angel in Season 4, things just felt more tightly knit between the two series when they were on the same network. I think the two titles could use some cohesiveness, to feel like they're in the same world again without fanwankery and readers of both titles constantly wondering. Dark Horse seems to be a lot more...I dunno how to put it...focused, in terms of their vision for the franchise ? Not to mention they have a direct line to the creators, while IDW seems to have lost that post-"After the Fall". IDW puts out the main Angel book (after multiple mini-series and one-shots, though I realize their hands were tied with not being allowed to move forward with Season 6 storytelling for a while/not having Joss' blessing), but they're also all over the map with spin-offs currently (no disrespect to the WW1 mini that is apparently quality) and I don't know about other readers but I don't need this to become like Marvel's X-Men franchise, having to buy a few or several books a month if I want to keep up with the characters.

Dark Horse shows restraint (Buffy Season 8 main book, with the occasional one-shot like "Tales of the Vampires" and the forthcoming "Willow" one-timer--and that's all I feel the need for) and is working within the creator's framework (I know that doesn't matter to everyone, but canon is huge for me, everyone's mileage varies). Spread the series too thin and it becomes diluted, it's inevitable, it always happens to every franchise in comics when multiple titles get out of hand or when they don't know when to end things for a while (the nature of business/fact that Angel comics are turning a profit ensured that IDW wouldn't let the Angel comics rest after "After the Fall", they pushed forward when it seems now it would have been wise to take a break or re-start the series from a new #1 to separate Joss-involved and Joss-approved Angel from purely IDW-generated Angel).

But then, yeah, I realize not everyone's liking Buffy Season 8 and/or may have something against Dark Horse for whatever reason, this is just where I'm coming from.

Riker said:
"Because they're a continuation of the main canon story, Let Down.

If Aftermath weren't canon, it would have been told in its own separate miniseries, not the main title."

Just because IDW kept the numbering continuous on the main Angel comics doesn't automatically grant "Aftermath" and everything that comes after it canon status. Generally that's in the hands of the show's/franchise's creator (though we may not see comment on it 'cause it might be bad business to shoot down certain parts of the adaptations). A more realistic view of it is that IDW kept the numbering instead of starting it over because they knew that would increase the likelihood of retaining more of the "After the Fall" readers. Whereas if they started back at #1 for a new mini-series, more "After the Fall" readers would have dropped the book, figuring without Joss' name attached and without any word on it being an "official" continuation, it's just more fanfiction they'd be paying for (not everyone wants to do that. I've bought lots of non-canon Buffy/Angel comics, but prefer not to anymore 'cause I've found, not always but on average, the Mutant Enemy-involved and Joss-approved stuff is lightyears better and fits more comfortably with TV Buffy/Angel).

"You don't just have, say, 6 issues of canon, then 5 issues of non-canon, then jump back to canon, and so on and so forth."

Sometimes you can have that.

I agree that that's bad form when we're dealing with comics that started as comics (ie, most superhero comics, although sometimes fans are happy when a particularly horrible story--and they do happen unfortunately, with the titles passed along to so many writers over the years/decades--is disregarded or quitely ignored). It would look clumsy with the Angel comics too (plus likely lead to feelings of being ripped off for some--comics are really like a lottery in that regard though), but I don't think it would be unacceptable. To me, there's no difference between the pre-"After the Fall" IDW mini-series not being regarded as canon (or if they're not in the way of anything that's been established, they're up for grabs for fans to take or not take as their "personal canon" or whatever) and a chunk of the story in the middle of the main Angel book not being regarded as canon (if someone official-like comes along and says it ain't). The book's serial numbering doesn't make it any more or less official, just because it followed "After the Fall".

Sorry for the repetition, me and Let Down posted at the same time.

[ edited by Kris on 2009-07-27 16:40 ]

Kris | July 27, 16:35 CET

I'm also rooting for Angel to return to Dark Horse so the book'll be a buck cheaper. I hate IDW's pricing system.

Riker | July 27, 16:52 CET

Now if Joss came along and said all the issues after AtF are canon then it's a whole other story.

Then there's really no point in debating it unless we have official word. You can view it as non-canon and I can view it as canon. Neither of us are right or wrong til the Big Guy says otherwise.

Riker | July 27, 16:53 CET

Just to clarify my comment... I skipped most of the DH/IDW/canon stuff.

I was at this panel and I'd like to clarify a few things:



Well, Xane, the 2BW's are going to dive a little more into the mythology of demons and such. For one, their take on the "devil" is a job- anyone can get hired to do it, while a demon is an actual species. When LA went to hell, there were FAR too many people to torture, so they hired temporary devils to help with the high demand. Eddie Hall was one of those hired. He's a regular guy who's been granted special powers (?) and gear to "punish"/torture those who deserve it.

Well, they're not in Hell-A anymore. BUT, someone forgot to lay off the devils. So, Eddie's going around, vigilante-style, punishing those he thinks/remembers deserve it. But since Hell-A never "happened", these people actually didn't commit any crimes. Doesn't matter, Eddie remembers it anyways, and deals out the torture anyway.

The way they're going to tell the story is to have Angel and Eddie on their separate paths eventually come to clash which (I'm sure) will be epic. We, the readers, will be able to follow each on this journey, with front row seats to the carnage.

IDW further clarified that while Angel may go MIA regarding his friends, he won't go MIA in the comics. (Think Season 2 when Angel goes dark.) He's had enough of fame (which ties to Lynch's CC & Hollywood movie series) and people, so he goes off on his own for a while. But, since Angel narrates anyway, we'll still get to tag-along.

For Lynch, even though he'll be saying good-bye to Angel the character, I don't think he'll be leaving our 'verse. He is going to be doing the Spike series, which he's really tapped into and excited about. This way, he can play with his previous characters and give Spike his own gang & voice. This is what he wants, and I think he'll be great at it.

Hope this clears some things up. Let me know if you have any other questions on this panel.

korkster | July 27, 21:22 CET

Then there's really no point in debating it unless we have official word. You can view it as non-canon and I can view it as canon. Neither of us are right or wrong til the Big Guy says otherwise.

Well, no. It's not 'maybe canon' until Joss comes and says it isn't. We assume it's canon until Joss says it is. In my example of me writing a Serenity sequel we wouldn't say that it's equally right to say it is or isn't canon until Joss comes along and gives his verdict. It's just not canon

Let Down | July 28, 02:43 CET

Huh? What are you talking about? We are assuming it's canon until Joss says it is or isn't.

Riker | July 28, 03:06 CET

Oh I meant to say 'we assume it's NOT canon until Joss says it is'. My point is that when Joss hsan't said it's canon it isn't just as right to say 'it's canon' as 'it's non canon'. The word 'canon' doesn't mean 'continuation' - if that were so any fan fiction that takes place after season 5 would be canon. It means the official story and the only person who can make it official is Joss (or perhaps David Greenwalt); Kelley Armstrong and the IDW can't do that. That, of course, isn't a judgement on whether what they're publishing is any good or not.

[ edited by Let Down on 2009-07-28 04:34 ]

Let Down | July 28, 04:27 CET

You can assume one thing and I can assume another---it's hurting no one! :-)

However, if I find out the comics I own aren't canon, I will immediately sell them.

Riker | July 28, 23:11 CET