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August 03 2009

From Falstaff to Joxer to Xander: The Fool is No Laughing Matter. A Torchonline article about the role of the fool with examples from Xena and Buffy. Namely Joxer, Xander and Andrew.

I've always been partial to Feste myself.

I think Jayne would qualify as well--albeit in a somewhat more violent manner.

[ edited by BreathesStory on 2009-08-03 22:51 ]
Does anyone else think that Lorne from "Angel" would qualify as a fool? I always have.

Not in the foolish/ridiculous sort of way, but in the way that the fool provides an objective opinion of what's going on with the other characters.

And while Lorne most certainly can fight, he usually chose not to, preferring to stay out of the fray and be involved in the plot in a more behind-the-scenes sort of way.

A little more like Touchstone in "As You Like It".

Any thoughts?

~Tara ;)
Andrew is not a fool. He is an idiot.
I'm glad that Dana5140 distinguishes the archetype of the fool, from the tragic figure of the idiot.

I don't think Lorne qualifies as a fool because he's too consistently competent.
I don't think Lorne qualifies as the fool, either.

Unlike Xander and Andrew, there was never a moment where I had any ill feeling toward the character of Joxer. He was often smarter than he was given credit for, even when he was clumsy and inept. He made me laugh and he made me cry and sometimes, he made me do both at once.
I'm not sure what the literary archetype for Lorne is since I haven't studied, but my guess Lorne is simply taken too seriously by the plot to be considered the fool. I think that's the fundamental difference, early Xander and all of Andrew/Joxer never let you take them seriously on a regular basis.

Lorne was strange, but at the end you kind of had to take him seriously because everyone else did.
Hmmm, the only character on Angel I would term 'the fool' is David Nabbit.
I think early Wesley was the 'fool' on Angel... Particularly when he first comes in wearing leather and calling himself a "rogue demon hunter". then he developed and became all cool and dark

[ edited by mortimer on 2009-08-04 04:21 ]
You're definitely right on early Wesley. Of course they did what I think you really should do which is grow the character. True fools in shows like this would probably die. My problem with Joxer was always that he was never allowed to grow competent (not even good, just competent) and it still took him three seasons to die.

And its not realistic that a person would see carnage on a daily basis and remain foolish. Perhaps still intentionally trying to get laughs, but not remaining foolish. It might be cute in a play, but its not very realistic in anything that's supposed to arc longer than a month.
Joxer the Mighty
He's really tidy
Everyone admires him
He's so handsome it's a sin
Joxer! Joxer the Mighty!

Had to be done
Harmony was more a comic villain that they kept close to watch rather than a fool. As to Andrew I kinda hate him too but I'll acknowledge he's a Fool rather than an Idiot to keep the categories straight--er.

I wish I remembered Joxer better.

I'll acknowledge all of the Jossverse fools grew, even Willy the Snitch. And logically so. No Doctor Smith types here but that's another discussion and I will not discuss the image I just flashed on of a mid-60s Buffy yuck.

I can't say anything negative aqbout Falstaf becaue the only versions of Henyr IV I've seen had Leo McKern in the role and I'll never write him out of anything I've seen him in.

Jonathan offerred a fool's wisdom to Buffy about Riley at the end of "Superstar." >tear<

[ edited by DaddyCatALSO on 2009-08-04 17:47 ]

[ edited by DaddyCatALSO on 2009-08-04 19:46 ]
I support you Darwinfox

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