Whedonesque : Comments on 21558 : (SPOILER) Full Scott Allie Slayalive Q/A for Buffy #28.

Hardcovers...finally.

The answer to Question #14 seem odd. Seems like something he should not answer at all. Which is exactly what he's saying in his Answer to #31. Hm.

wiesengrund | September 06, 14:02 CET

Yes, I caught that as well.

Dana5140 | September 06, 14:06 CET

There could be stories in the bank robbing and the time between Chosen and The Long Way Home. But it's not what we're doing. Joss wasn't interested in puttying in the space between the stories; he was interested in getting to the place where things would be new and fresh, and run from there.

Oh dear. Thats a bit disappointing. Personally I would liked to have had a bit more of an idea how Buffy and co got to where we found them at the beginning of the comic. It might have helped convince me with some of the more 'wackier' ideas thats been running through this series so far.

Also I'm one of those who still doesn't a like the whole 'tell not show' treatment when it comes to Vampires being so readily accepted by the world as the good guys. It just doesn't convince me at all I'm afraid.

[ edited by sueworld2003 on 2009-09-06 14:17 ]

sueworld2003 | September 06, 14:16 CET

Also I'm one of those who still doesn't a like the whole 'tell not show' treatment

Battlestar Galactica was guilty of the "and this is how we move the plot along" device. It did cause me to blink somewhat. But then I suppose you have to jumpstart the story just to get where you want it to be.

Simon | September 06, 14:20 CET

Not necessarily. I think A good writer can fill us in with enough kernels of info for us to get where we need to go and still not slow down the rest of the story.

sueworld2003 | September 06, 15:42 CET

Actually I thought Scott Allie's answers to #14 and #31 were fine. In #14 he just confirms that Buffy's into Xander, which is obvious in the comic and in #31 declines to comment on why she's into him. Seems fair enough to me. There does appear to be an inconsistency between #15 where he confirms that Amy is the mole and #21 where he says "no spoilers". I'm assuming that he wasn't thinking of the original mole was answering #15 because that wouldn't really make sense, but who knows.

On the questions I asked (#23 and #42), I pretty much got the expected answers. The writers just don't seem bothered about the whole public liking vampires thing. Brushing off Harmony's admission of evil by relying on mass stupidity is just too cynical (even for me). The issue of Willow's behaviour is just one area of many where my interpretation of the comic recently is deviating significantly from what I think the writers are intending. Too often I don't know whether to read more into something or just ignore it.

(Btw, Emmie, your epic question 28 was excellent).

NotaViking | September 06, 16:11 CET

Actually I thought Scott Allie's answers to #14 and #31 were fine. In #14 he just confirms that Buffy's into Xander, which is obvious in the comic and in #31 declines to comment on why she's into him. Seems fair enough to me.

I guess it then depends on your definition of "obvious". It was far from obvious for me, and other people I talked to flatly denied the possibility that Buffy might have feelings for Xander after reading 8x28. So, either they did a bad job at making that point clear, or Jane/Joss didn't want to make that point clear (yet), and Allie is spoiling a good bit of fan speculation.

Either way, it's on top of that inconsistent to say "Let's clear that obviously-not-so-clear-because-it-was-asked-question up for you, although it's not up to me to clear it up. It's for you to speculate about it."

wiesengrund | September 06, 16:29 CET

Either way, it's on top of that inconsistent to say "Let's clear that obviously-not-so-clear-because-it-was-asked-question up for you, although it's not up to me to clear it up. It's for you to speculate about it.".

Exactly. Very well put. :)

sueworld2003 | September 06, 17:04 CET

Personally, I'm stuck on

Scott Allie: We're not involved, and I don't wanna talk about it. Sorry.

more than anything else.

The One True b!X | September 06, 17:38 CET

20th Century Fox has the motion comics rights to what Dark Horse brings out?

Simon | September 06, 17:42 CET

That puzzled me too, B!X and Simon. The most telling thing was the "I don't want to talk about it." Weird.

Giles_314 | September 06, 17:54 CET

Hee. I like his answer to #23. Spot on.

Sunfire | September 06, 17:57 CET

Subtle digs return with their subtle vengeance.

Weird about the Fox project, though. I'm wondering what it is.

patxshand | September 06, 18:11 CET

Okay, anyone else get the impression from his answers that Buffy might resume (or perhaps try and fail to resume) her relationship/fling/whatever with Satsu in response to Xander/Dawn?

Taaroko | September 06, 18:13 CET

"Not necessarily. I think A good writer can fill us in with enough kernels of info for us to get where we need to go and still not slow down the rest of the story."

Isn't "enough" a completely subjective term? Some of us actually think that enough kernels have been placed before us to see where the characters started out, as well as understand how they got there from the close of "Chosen".

wenxina | September 06, 18:41 CET

Pat, when have the anti-Allie digs ever been subtle? Where was I?

KingofCretins | September 06, 20:03 CET

King my response above has nothing to do with having a 'dig', but more to do with passing comment on what he's actually saying in regard to season 8. Okay?

[ edited by sueworld2003 on 2009-09-06 20:25 ]

sueworld2003 | September 06, 20:13 CET

wiesengrund: It's amusing that I'd have to defend the comic for it's clarity as there's been a great deal in this arc that I'm not understanding and for which I'd blame the writing, yet most people seem fine with it. However, in this case I do think it is obvious. If someone's denying that it's even a possibility, then I simply don't know what they think is going on in this issue. There's the "I will" panel, Willow's "Xander's a good guy", Buffy changing clothes and just the look on Buffy's face on seeing Xander and Dawn. If Buffy isn't interested in Xander, what is all this stuff?

Sorry, but I still don't get the inconsistency. They're two separate things - is Buffy interested in Xander and why. The first he clears up and the second he leaves to the fans.

Sunfire: I know we've been over this general issue before, so let's not repeat that, but what news programmes and what cute skinny blondes are we talking about here? Whether it's pop stars, actresses or news anchors, I just don't see it. Every country has a minority of idiots, but it's not the majority.

[ edited by NotaViking on 2009-09-06 20:42 ]

NotaViking | September 06, 20:32 CET

I'm willing to bet that if we take a side trip into examples of an entire country or people getting snowed by lies on television, this thread will get heated and messy very quickly.

The One True b!X | September 06, 20:50 CET

Hm, maybe my reading was obscured by taking this issue to be (t some extent) about shipping, and how Andrew, looking for the Great Plot Twist and Big Emotional Moment with a camera, portrays also fan-expectations. I took the Bander-scene to be just as much a red herring dealing with our own lust for ships, as the Fuffy-scene ("A touch! Aww!") or the Willow-Oz scene where they talk about "having a future" and ... babies. I didn't take any of these to mean: "X has feelings for Y" Maybe precisely because the issue was carefully asking me to, and therefore challenging me not to.

Re: inconsistency, you're right, NotaViking, they are basically two separate things. I am probably just confused by why he would be inclined to clear up the "Is-she-or-is-she-not"-one at all. The reason for leaving the second one to the masses might just be because he thinks it's just not that important an issue to clear up.

wiesengrund | September 06, 20:53 CET

There's a general trend in recent years of people becoming celebrities through reality shows and then gaining a kind of national obsessive interest where everything they say and do gets reported and repeated. Today they're in reality show, tomorrow they're in all the celebrity magazines and cable news is keeping an eye out for stories about them. Examples are Paris Hilton and Heidi Montag. I think Harmony's new role in the Buffyverse is deliberately modeled after them. First she's got camera crews documenting her fabulous vampire life, and now she's become the face of vampiredom. She's very sympathetic. I don't think it's a stretch to think that in the Buffyverse she gains national attention and sympathy for her point of view, which is that vampires are the wronged parties in this ongoing fight. That they're the victims. That they can't help it.

I think it's very clever actually how the writers have built that up. Oh no, even Anderson Cooper says we're the bad guys! Look, she's on Colbert now, arguing that it's Slayers who choose to kill. Etc.

Sunfire | September 06, 20:57 CET

His response to the first question was kinda grumpy...

What could it mean??

Also, I find it funny SMG approved JSC when his Buffy looks nothing like her..!

[ edited by Riker on 2009-09-06 23:04 ]

Riker | September 06, 23:04 CET

The answer to #42 puzzles me--while I have my own biases, it does not seem like the level of frustration and anger Willow had could get solved by watching a baby and then could just hop over into just deciding to go with the program; it feels very strange to me. (Also, a magicless and possibly babyfied Willow would make me very, very sad-I'm also kind of uncomfortable with everything being fixed up by talking to an authority figure (well, two.) although I do not think that is the way this will all shake out.)
OTOH, there is still "this thing" that Willow has to do and her saying that even Buffy has a future, so it may not be as simple as it appears either. I guess I will see.

JessicaMelusine | September 06, 23:35 CET

I think Willow was so grumpy because she believed she could never have a baby, never have a family, never be a person but merely a force. Oz manages to get through to her that she can by trusting her with his son (this is why I love Oz/Willow - not that it's going there, but that he challenges Willow to see the world in new ways, grounds her). So yes, she does a complete 180 from extreme pessimism to extreme hope because of this renewed trust and the joy found in holding a baby.

Maybe it's just me, but when you are actively wanting to have a child and you hold a baby - that's a HIGH like no other. So basically, that scene was Willow high on hope and happiness and the sweet smell that babies all have. She was high on the possibilities of actually having a life.

Thanks NotaViking for the shout-out. Glad you liked the question. I'm still pondering the ramifications of this situation actually. I need to do a reread of the Season because I think there's something there about limited POV and the media that I'm missing. I think it's also important to note that while Harmony is very popular, and vampires are popular in a cliched curiosity from humanity, that the focus of the story is more on how the Slayers are hated. That the Slayer hate is the crux of the story, not the vampire love which is why the vampire love isn't being explored in all it's complexities. Yes, it's interesting, but it's not important.

Emmie | September 07, 00:13 CET

The 'vampire public' story line has been the weak point of season 8 for me. I don't think it's been explored as well as it could have and I think it was mostly all tell and very little show. I love the idea behind it because the commentary on the media at the moment is spot on but it hasn't been handled brilliantly.

Other than that I'm fine with everything else, his response to the bank robbery (I felt) was spot on. We already know why she did it (because of what she spent it on) and think her mindset was fairly obvious anyway.

The whole Animated thing is interesting, it does seem like Allie was either annoyed or not allowed to talk about it. Makes you wonder what FOX have planned. When does the Bones s4 DVD come out again?

vampmogs | September 07, 00:30 CET

Emmie- which of course means OZ and his wife die, and Willow decides to care for the baby.

Dana5140 | September 07, 00:37 CET

b!x: Yeah, it is tempting to go to real world political examples, but as you suggest, probably better not to. I'll leave it at, "You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time."

Sunfire: I don't really feel that the media or the public "let anything pass" in regards to that type of celebrity. I'm only vaguely aware of it, but it seems like they're subject to a great deal of scrutiny and criticism. The idea that it's sympathy (rather than deceit and stupidity) that's at the heart of the acceptance of vampires is interesting. Not sure if it helps me in terms of overall plausibility, but I understand better where you're coming from. It is asking a lot from the human race. Too much, I would suggest, but I’ll be thinking it over.

NotaViking | September 07, 01:26 CET

Allie's answer about the trailer on the Bones dvd makes me think this is NOT a motion comic---rather, it's a full-blown animated adaptation of season eight as a series or dvd.

Riker | September 07, 01:52 CET

Emmie - why couldn't Willow ever have a baby of her own? Just curious as to your line of thinking...

didifallasleep | September 07, 02:13 CET

My guess about why Willow can't/won't have a baby is twofold. One, she isn't exactly in a stable environment for raising a child since they travel the world and are constantly under attack. Two, there's generally the problem of actually becoming pregnant short of magic and I'm not certain even donations would work since there's something do impersonal about sperm banks and I assume she'd feel weird given her three or four options.

I'm joining the crowd more curious about the DVD ad though. Sounds rather petulant/intriguing even if it is probably reasonable. Exactly what could Fox be up to that seems to be leaving Dark Horse out of it...?

orangewaxlion | September 07, 02:36 CET

I've had problems with the entire "slayers are evil" storyline, even in light of what we know about celebrity culture. Even murderers get fan mail, but I just cannot see the entire culture going gaga over supernatural creatures they knew nothing about a few months ago, but had plenty of literature about vampires to read, and figuring they are worth emulating. I sometimes think the comic is pitched at people who don't delve deep into the storyline, rather than those who are truly invested and who do.

I also have problems with Buffy really realizing her love for Xander right at the very moment he is kissing Dawn. Yeesh, come on.

ETA: A season 8 adaptation does not mean it is an adaptation of this season 8.

[ edited by Dana5140 on 2009-09-07 02:42 ]

Dana5140 | September 07, 02:44 CET

These Q&As are pretty delvtastic. If the comics are aimed at a non-invested group, I think that's failing pretty spectacularly.

Sunfire | September 07, 02:49 CET

ETA: A season 8 adaptation does not mean it is an adaptation of this season 8.

Then it isn't an adaptation, because this is the only season 8 that already actually exists and therefore is available to be adapted.

The One True b!X | September 07, 02:51 CET

I sometimes think the comic is pitched at people who don't delve deep into the storyline, rather than those who are truly invested and who do

Yeah sorry but people have written wonderful, in-depth meta on season 8 all over the web. There's a lot of forums that talk about it a lot (Slayalive, Buffyforums, Buffy Boards ect) Look out for names like Emmie, Stormwreath, Maggie and you'll see some great stuff. Who else would they pitch a Btvs s8 comic to but the hardcore fans?

I also have problems with Buffy really realizing her love for Xander right at the very moment he is kissing Dawn. Yeesh, come on.

You mean like when Willow and Tara just got back together right before she was shot through the chest? Or when Angel's soul was restored right when Buffy had to send him to hell? That's called drama my friend!

[ edited by vampmogs on 2009-09-07 03:09 ]

vampmogs | September 07, 02:59 CET

I'm curious about the animated Buffy project, and why Allie doesn't want to talk about it.

The vampires in, slayers out storyline is a mess. It really is too hard to believe that the public would embrace vampires. And it sounds like it won't be addressed deeper. Why would I buy this idea? It's just too much and underdeveloped in every single way. I think the outing of vampires and their acceptance is a huge storyline and it really changed Buffy's world. It needed some time and attention.

Also the tarot cards and why that didn't happen. I assume it was an actor having an issue......I have a guess, but won't say, no need to go there I suppose. I would of bought the cards for sure though. Too bad.

[ edited by GhostsWatcher on 2009-09-07 03:43 ]

GhostsWatcher | September 07, 03:06 CET

Re: Embracing vampires... how many vampire tv shows and movies will be coming out in the next few months in the real world? There's a giant section of the population that's obsessed with vampires and they aren't even real. Imagine how hyped they'd be if they were real... and Paris Hilton was one, and telling everybody how hot it was.

Seems plenty plausible to me.

As far as the not putty-ing in the details, I would refer you to the lyrics of "Heart, Broken":

A CAVEMAN PAINTED ON A CAVE
IT WAS A BISON, WAS A FAVE
THE OTHER CAVE-PEOPLE WOULD RAVE –
THEY DIDN’T ASK “WHY?”
WHY PAINT A BISON IF IT’S DEAD
WHEN DID YOU CHOOSE THE COLOR RED
WHAT WAS THE PROCESS IN YOUR HEAD
HE TOLD THEIR STORY
WHAT CAME BEFORE HE DIDN’T SHOW
WE’RE NOT SUPPOSED TO

heliograph | September 07, 03:51 CET

Emmie - why couldn't Willow ever have a baby of her own? Just curious as to your line of thinking...

It's not that she physically can't, it's that she's decided she can't because she's a warrior, a force, and that such a person doesn't have a baby.

Emmie | September 07, 03:59 CET

heliograph-Plausible or not, not putting in those details into the series is lazy writing and that lack of detail takes you completely out of the storyline.

menomegirl | September 07, 04:03 CET

I was under the impression that there was a spell going to be responsible for the whole story. I distinctively remember Allie saying 'there may be some magic involved.' He hasn't mentioned it since though so maybe I've got it wrong.

vampmogs | September 07, 04:13 CET

Was it lazy writing all the times the show didn't fill in every little detail? Did it take you "out of the story" then? Oddly enough, I remember when fans called it a point in Joss's favor that he thought his audience was smart enough to not need their hands held every step of the way. What the hell happened?

Rowan Hawthorn | September 07, 04:23 CET

Rowan, this "coming out of the coffin" storyline is a lot bigger than any of the stories on the show that were lacking in detail.

Something this big needs a lot more attention, and the comic IS failing in this regard.

Riker | September 07, 04:42 CET

There's a big difference between a missing scene in an episode that needs no explaination and a years-long season arc that makes no sense whatsoever, Rowan.

menomegirl | September 07, 04:46 CET

menomegirl - I understand you position, but I disagree. I wouldn't use the word lazy, either, because that implies they aren't spending time thinking about the story, and from what I've seen they are. My personal preference is for less exposition about backstory vs more story taken up with explain-y bits. I think the job of the folks putting out the comic is to entertain, and they think what they're doing is more entertaining than trotting out more backstory.

Rowan - The bigger the audience, the harder it is to please them all.

heliograph | September 07, 04:48 CET

menomegirl, things on the show that were left to the audience to think on and debate and discuss and argue about went far beyond just single missing scenes in single episodes, and well you know it. That's precisely why there's still so much debate and discussion and argument about the show's details, six years after it went off the air.

Riker, considering the number of modern fictional universes that have been using the "out of the coffin" storyline, I can't fathom exactly why it's such a bigger than everything story that requires a step-by-step explanation of how the coming out of the coffin was accomplished. Nor why this particular fictional universe should be required to do this, when the real story it seems to be getting at, like most of those others (which don't seem to be held to that standard), is the consequences of that action.

Our current understanding of physics tells us that FTL drive is impossible. When you watch a TV show, or read a book, that involves FTL travel, do you expect them to show you a schematic of the drive they're using in order to get to the actual story?

Rowan Hawthorn | September 07, 05:45 CET

Rowan Hawthorn-All debates and individual opinions aside, the show's writers rarely went from point A to point C while leaving the viewers totally in the dark with a plot development/s this huge. I mean, seriously...could you imagine if we'd had to wait two years to find out why Buffy suddenly had a younger sister? Or worse, if her sudden appearence had never been explained? Just how well do you think that would have went over?

[ edited by menomegirl on 2009-09-07 06:47 ]

menomegirl | September 07, 06:29 CET

I've been a big fan of season eight overall, but yeah, the whole "vampires accepted by the public" thing was mangled. I'm along for the story, so I accept it, but it's the one thing about the season that just hasn't been handled properly.

UnpluggedCrazy | September 07, 06:34 CET

I'm with UnpluggedCrazy, that's my opinion exactly.

My problem is just that we haven't seen enough variety about how people would react to it. I'm not a big fan of TB in general but it definitely did handle this particular story point better. I just need to see some humans being against the vamps, Colbert seemed skeptical but I wouldn't mind more.

I did like Emmie's explanation that it only appears everybody is supportive of the vamps because it's from Buffy's POV. That's a nifty way to look at it.

[ edited by vampmogs on 2009-09-07 07:19 ]

vampmogs | September 07, 07:19 CET

While I also think the coming out of the coffin was handled clumsy in terms of storytelling and impact it had on the world of our characters, I'm waiting till S8 finishes to pass final judgment on that, because there still maybe some kind of pay-off in the end that explains why they did the "Predators & Prey" arc the way they did it.

wiesengrund | September 07, 07:34 CET

I did like Emmie's explanation that it only appears everybody is supportive of the vamps because it's from Buffy's POV. That's a nifty way to look at it.

Which also explains the lack of spending any deal of specificity detailing how it all happened, exactly. Part of the dynamic here appears to be the very fact that this development caught everybody off guard. In some sense, they weren't paying attention, and now all they can do is deal with the fact that they need to move forward in a world that's different.

ETA that moving forward in a world's that different harkens back to the opening lines of Season 8, in fact. "The thing about changing the world... once you do it, the world's all different." While a reference to the plurality of Slayers, it's echoed here. Only this time, the world changed without them, and away from them, not because of them. And all they can do is try to deal with it, not spend their time tracking down the specific hows and whys.

Also ETA (although I probably said this before) that "the thing about changing the world... once you do it, the world's all different" also applies to Dawn's existence, and is no small reason why I believe this season is ultimately about her. This issue's emotional development where she's concerned only solidifies that for me.

[ edited by The One True b!X on 2009-09-07 07:46 ]

The One True b!X | September 07, 07:43 CET

King: Didn't mean the anti-Allie stuff.

patxshand | September 07, 08:09 CET

Tacking on a third ETA to my above because "the thing about changing the world... once you do it, the world's all different" also applies, in a sense, to what I still take to be the shunting off of the Fray future into a little pocket existence of its own.

The One True b!X | September 07, 08:16 CET

There's a giant section of the population that's obsessed with vampires and they aren't even real. Imagine how hyped they'd be if they were real...

Except that unlike real ones, fictional vampires don't eat people. Even Chantarelle & co in "Lie to Me" changed their minds about the coolness of vampires when they actually met them.

I'm having hard time imagining your average person embracing a creature that's higher on the foodchain than they are - just look at wolves, tigers, sharks, and other large predators that have been (falsely) labelled as man-eaters. Sure, a lot of people think they're cool, but that hasn't saved them from being hunted almost to extinction. Of course, vampires look like humans, which would probably make killing them more problematic, but it's not like that hasn't happened before.

ruuger | September 07, 09:35 CET

Vampmogs- well, to be honest, I also had trouble with Tara getting shot through the chest just at the moment she and Willow got back together again...

And I am also quite aware that there are people willing to excuse just about anything in this comic, from reliance on magical submarines and slayers that know how to run them, to a world accepting vampires as positive role models. I am not one of them.

The amount of meta on comic S8 pales in comparison to what we saw for the TV show and is not a measure of how successful this series is as a series. I still think it is playing to the LCD.

[ edited by Dana5140 on 2009-09-07 12:30 ]

Dana5140 | September 07, 12:30 CET

The One True b!X - I like where you're going with this bringing it back to the opening lines about changing the world. I'm right there with you. In some ways, I can't wait until the season is over so I can go back and write an analysis for how it all worked for the best in the end (this is my hopeful voice). Because looking back on the the last arc which was informally referred to as "Vampires in public", I can't help but feel that the disappointment by fans is because they were expecting it to actually be about "vampires in public" and instead it's about Buffy's briefest reaction to "vampires in public" and then immediately focusing on her reaction to the world hating Slayers and viewing her as the enemy. Allie has admitted that there probably are factions who don't all love vampires. But the point is that the world is set on lynching Slayers. So that's what we're seeing now.

There's been very little attention given to the 'humanity loves vampires' story except in Harmony's fame-mongering. That's pretty much it. It's not the focus of the story. The Slayer hate is. And I can't help but feel that this expectation was arisen in fandom because of the speculation prior to this arc being called "vampires in public".

Emmie | September 07, 12:41 CET

The amount of meta on comic S8 pales in comparison to what we saw for the TV show and is not a measure of how successful this series is as a series. I still think it is playing to the LCD.

Dana, I wasn't trying to suggest that meta is a reflection on how good or a bad series is. I was trying to show you that your comment that the comic is pitched at fans who aren't fully invested in the series is, IMO, incorrect. Not only incorrect but a little dismissive of all the die-hard 'Buffy' fans who read this series and DO 'delve deeper' into the story.

As Sunfire stated;

'These Q&As are pretty delvtastic. If the comics are aimed at a non-invested group, I think that's failing pretty spectacularly.'

You don't do monthly Q/A's for a group of fans who aren't deeply invested in the series. Obviously they must get a lot out of the story or they wouldn't keep discussing it like they do.

I'm not sure what corner of the net you play in so I can't really comment but the places I haunt are rife with in-depth discussions about the series on a daily basis. Especially the issues penned by Joss. But then I think Joss rarely ever produces material that doesn't make you think on a deeper level. Even Toy Story has a lot to think about...

....and I should know, I had to analyze it at least 3 frackin' times during my school days haha. My teachers got a lot of mileage out of that movie!

[ edited by vampmogs on 2009-09-07 13:07 ]

vampmogs | September 07, 12:48 CET

Maybe it's just me, but when you are actively wanting to have a child and you hold a baby - that's a HIGH like no other. So basically, that scene was Willow high on hope and happiness and the sweet smell that babies all have. She was high on the possibilities of actually having a life.

Ok, I'm just saying, fair enough for some people, but since when has Willow wanted a baby? Thats just ridiculous to me. Yeah she wants a future, maybe a life partner, maybe a family, but its not likes she's been jonesing for a foetus implantation, like, ever. That's why I found that whole thing so unbelievable and was confused that Allie didn't think it was a bit odd behaviourally.

digupherbones | September 07, 13:49 CET

menomegirl:

All debates and individual opinions aside, the show's writers rarely went from point A to point C while leaving the viewers totally in the dark with a plot development/s this huge. I mean, seriously...could you imagine if we'd had to wait two years to find out why Buffy suddenly had a younger sister? Or worse, if her sudden appearence had never been explained? Just how well do you think that would have went over?

1. If the Dawn arc had been in comic form, running as much as four issues to an episode, one a month, instead of a full episode every week, we would have had to wait nearly two years. We didn't find out that Dawn was a construct until five episodes in, or the equivalent of roughly twenty issues.
2. There are still lots of things we don't know about Dawn and her origins: Where did the "Key" originate? What was it for? Is the Key still in her, or is she really human now? How did the Monks create her human body? Did they take some of Buffy's DNA? Joyce's? And how did they create all those false memories, and how far does the spell's influence extend? It would be interesting to know the answers, but they don't really matter to the story. They're just the setup to the story that was being told.

Dana5140:

And I am also quite aware that there are people willing to excuse just about anything in this comic, from reliance on magical submarines and slayers that know how to run them, to a world accepting vampires as positive role models. I am not one of them.

The amount of meta on comic S8 pales in comparison to what we saw for the TV show and is not a measure of how successful this series is as a series. I still think it is playing to the LCD.

Lowest Common Denominator...

*exhalllle*

You know, I'm sure there's a way to make that sound even more arrogant and pretentious than it already does, but it would take some work. Every time a complaint comes up about things we don't know yet, any opposing viewpoint is met with the sniffy little "I guess my taste is just more sophisticated than yours" card, which doesn't leave any room for argument. Fine. Pat yourself on the back all you want, 'cause I'm done.

Rowan Hawthorn | September 07, 15:43 CET

I'd rather we didn't resort to fisticuffs and bashing other posters. If you want to exchange heated views see if the other person is willing to take it to email. Otherwise I'll start slinging people's hooks for them.

Simon | September 07, 16:15 CET

No need, Simon. I'm done discussing the comics altogether. I'll just stay out of these threads from here on.

Rowan Hawthorn | September 07, 16:58 CET

I still think it is playing to the LCD.

I understand some people don't like the comics or find them lacking in several ways. I like to think we can disagree and discuss without insulting one another's intelligence.

Sunfire | September 07, 17:25 CET

I am not trying to insult anyone's intelligence, and this is no comment on anyone here. I honestly feel that the comic is not pitched to hardcore fan- yes, I know that hardcore fans are reading, and thinking, and doing all the things we do- but the comic will not succeed if it fails to sell. And the best way it sells is to broaden itself to everyone as much as possible; ergo, I call this the LCD approach. I do so because years ago, I had a series of communications with the jazz artist Chick Corea. You could do that back then, But Chick went and took a band he was in, called Circle, which played a very cerebral form of free jazz- it was heady and I found it intriguing. But then he decided his music was not reaching all the people he wanted it to, and he simply changed the entire form of music he was playing, initially to a form of modern Latin jazz in the first iteration of Return to Forever, and then to fusion in the second and subsequent versions. He reduced the music to more acceptable and easier to understand forms, and became rather wealthy as result. And he was quite upfront about what he was doing; it was all about communicating to the widest possible audience. But it was not the same, not as interesting, not as mature, not as sharp as it had been. IMO, of course. And that is sort of what I see here- it has nothing to do with us who are commenting, but rather on the writers and those who are putting the comic together. What Allie seems to be saying is, none of this is really important to us, even if it is to you. And you, of course, are our most faithful readers, but that does not matter.

So if the terms offends, I apologize because that is not my intent. My intent is simply to note that by expanding the comic to include the non-cognoscenti as much as the fan, it has lost part of what made it so unique. It is just a comic. It does not resonate, and I do not wait eagerly for each new issue to come out.

Dana5140 | September 07, 19:07 CET

I have to agree with Dana. I enjoy the comic for the most part, but it doesn't resonate like the show.

Riker | September 07, 19:19 CET

What Allie seems to be saying is, none of this is really important to us, even if it is to you. And you, of course, are our most faithful readers, but that does not matter.

This. Yes.

menomegirl | September 07, 19:24 CET

And you think there was a fundamental shift between the show and the comic in that regard, Dana5140? That the show never tried to reach as many people as possible (while being "interesting", "mature" and "sharp")?

wiesengrund | September 07, 19:29 CET

I now see what you are saying, Dana5140. I agree with you for the moment. However, I'm going to wait until the series is finished before I pass final judgement. I'm hopeful that by the time the final issue comes out, season 8 as a whole will be amazing.

Giles_314 | September 07, 21:00 CET

wiesengrund, that was not what I was saying, but yes, that is what I am saying. It gave up big numbers in order to be a better program.

Dana5140 | September 07, 22:27 CET

The comics pull a small fraction of the audience the tv series did. Continuing a cult hit tv series as a comic strikes me as precisely a product marketed to the hard core fans at the expense of trying to appeal to a broader, less invested group. I understand that some people don't like Season 8 and have a low opinion about the quality of the storytelling, but I don't see any evidence that the comics are intended to appeal to a broader audience. On the contrary, skipping all the backstory people have been arguing was needed between Seasons 7 and 8 is the opposite of what you do to broaden your appeal. If you're trying to draw in non-fans, you add more exposition to make it easier for new people to join the new chapter in the story. They didn't do that. They waited until all of page 5 to throw in an injoke you'd need to have watched a specific Angel episode to even understand.

Sunfire | September 07, 23:06 CET

So Buffy is into Xander? I did not get that from the comic at all. I thought she was just shocked at finding Xander and Dawn together (which, who wouldn't be). And no previous issues even hinted at it that I can remember.

That's a pretty lame development. It resembles the Buffy from the show not at all. That just wasn't their relationship. Honestly, can anyone picture the Buffy from the show suddenly deciding she's in love with Xander? I can imagine it happening in like season 1, maybe. But after that there's just no way.

Honestly, I can buy plot developments like "world loves vampires" a lot easier than I can buy a character doing something that they just wouldn't do. The setting doesn't matter so much; it could be Buffy on Mars for all I care, just as long as it's, you know, Buffy.

dispatch | September 08, 00:14 CET

And no previous issues even hinted at it that I can remember.

You might want to consider a re-read. Hell, the series practically started with Buffy having a near-sex dream about Xander. Except then his head popped off. Um... yeah.

The One True b!X | September 08, 00:18 CET

dispatch, the way people feel about other people can change over time. Just because she is developing feelings for Xander does not mean she's out of character because she didn't have those feelings for him before. People grow and change.

Giles_314 | September 08, 03:11 CET

No, I tend to agree. I don't buy the Bander at all. It is too convenient, and too what I have called creaky. And the evidence is really lacking, and out of the blue. Too coincidental, as well.

And Sunfire, I respectfully disagree. The comic is doomed if all it does is appeal to hardcore fans. It has to be marketed to more than just the hardcore, and Serenity is the model. The movie worked for both groups; the comic is not nearly doing so well, as witness the fact that I am hardly the only one stating dislike or disinterest for the comic, here on whedonesque of all places.

Dana5140 | September 08, 03:13 CET

Serenity is the model. The movie worked for both groups

As evidenced by its status as a blockbuster.

The One True b!X | September 08, 03:18 CET

Buffy sells decently well among comic book series. Fan discussion on the internet is hardly a sign of a failed effort to reach the fandom.

Furthermore, Serenity 4: Zombie Wash Vs. Robo-Jayne has really eroded the marketability of future Serenity blockbusters. I blame the CGI and Whedon phoning it in. Serenity 3 was truly the last of the greats.

Sunfire | September 08, 03:37 CET

My point about Serenity is that is was specifically written to appeal to both fans and novices alike. Which it did, despite its modest numbers. Buffy sells well, but we have absolutely no information about who buys it or even who it is directed toward. To me, personally, it is a creative failure.

Dana5140 | September 08, 12:48 CET

Buffy sells well, but we have absolutely no information about who buys it or even who it is directed toward.

So, we do agree on that. Awesome. :)

wiesengrund | September 11, 08:24 CET

But your earlier point that it is made for/marketed to the Lowest Common Denominator...fine if the finished product comes off that way to you, but do you honestly believe all these Mutant Enemy writers (and guest writers that Joss is on good terms with, like Brian K. Vaughan, who doesn't write LCD material, at least never with his creator-owned properties) have significantly lowered their standards in order to sell more copies ?

Yeah, that makes sense. They all got together, along with Scott Allie, and made a conscious decision to create a continuation/adaptation that's more for the masses than the show was (except the show was for anyone, everyone was invited. The writers set the bar, they don't have to make poorly written dross, and the writers are even more in control in semi-independant comic companies like Dark Horse than they are in the usually constricting network TV-land).

I'm not a Season 8 apologist, I have some minor issues with it and I agree that it feels different from the show (not always a bad thing).

What Allie seems to be saying is, none of this is really important to us, even if it is to you. And you, of course, are our most faithful readers, but that does not matter.

Allie, as the closest we'll get as a mouthpiece for the writers on Season 8 for now, is speaking for them to the best of his abilities and understanding of their intent. The writers script their arcs before they get to see fan reaction to the finished product. They're not intentionally ignoring fans, Season 8 is a work in progress. Maybe Joss and others will read some of the criticism for Season 8 and address a thing or two in Season 9, maybe not. Especially where matters of clarity are concerned, if necessary (jury's out until Season 8 ends, IMO).

I note maybe a bit of frustration or at least...well, he obviously enjoys his job and has fun answering fan questions, so maybe not frustration, but he is at least occasionally challenged by the Buffy fandom with this particular book. Seems like he appreciates it though, that level of caring, even if he's unable to answer all our questions or promise anything to a satisfactory degree (for some), either due to spoilers or simply because he knows ahead of time that this season will not cover some of the requested issues.

Kris | September 13, 07:55 CET

September 06 2009