Cover art and details for Buffy the Vampire Slayer: Willow - BtVS

Snort. Looks like Willow took a trip to magical breast enhancement land.

Pretty much what I expected the cover to look like based on Allie's description. But Dec. 23rd? Hope that doesn't delay the January issue. And I've never heard of this Kit they are releasing again because of high demand......

GhostsWatcher | September 09, 04:09 CET

Art Nitpick: Um. Besides the breast-age, I'm busy wondering why Willow's neck looks so strange right around where Vasuki's arm is curling behind it. It looks like Willow's neck is trying to envelope her head. Very wrong proportion that's scaring me. The back line of her neck should be sloping down somewhere close behind her ear at this angle, but instead it keeps on going back. Yikes. Monster neck.

Emmie | September 09, 04:23 CET

Saga Vasuki just creeps me out. I hate and fear snakes so I'd pretty much die if I felt her curling around me. I'm with Anya, why can't she be a fluffy lamb?

I guess we're going to find out what Saga meant in WaTG when she told Willow she doesn't know what she is and what she will become.

vampmogs | September 09, 04:26 CET

Once again... another unnatural attempt to cover up nudity... the placement of limbs and such just looks so forced. Not really any different from the flashback in #10. But if you wanna nitpick the art... Vasuki's arm looks incredibly weird too. Like it's too long or something.

wenxina | September 09, 04:28 CET

Can't wait for this one-shot.Willow's assets may be enhanced but I love the the Jo Chen cover.It's so creepy.

And I'm seriously tempted to get the Buffy supernatural defense kit too.

Buffyfantic | September 09, 04:31 CET

Hm, art looks fine to me. Willow's neck, it seems she's resisting the embrace of snake lady. But I'm not seeing a problem with it. My only Jo Chen complaint about her art is she never really does a background, and it's always just characters.

GhostsWatcher | September 09, 04:31 CET

Vasuki's arm looks incredibly weird too. Like it's too long or something.

Because we know what the dimensions of a mystical snake lady's arms should be at all times? ;)

[ edited by The One True b!X on 2009-09-09 04:30 ]

The One True b!X | September 09, 04:31 CET

We at least know the dimensions of a human neck...don't we? :)

Emmie | September 09, 04:32 CET

Emmie, the strange angle with the neck and shoulders might be because the cover seems to be a homage to the The Birth of Venus by Botticelli, which has strange angles in these same areas.

[ edited by Matt_Fabb on 2009-09-09 06:22 ]

Matt_Fabb | September 09, 04:35 CET

Hey, from all depictions of Vasuki so far, she seems proportionately human, barring the serpentine lower half... so yes, I'd argue that we know what the dimensions of a mystical snake lady's arms should be at all times, unless she's working a spell that infuses her with Lycra or something.

wenxina | September 09, 04:37 CET

I didn't have a problem with the neck. I'm with GhostsWatcher, it just looks like it's strained because she's trying to resist Saga, who is pulling her in closer. It's just the position Willow is placed in.

To be honest I've never been good at this sort of stuff though. Everyone said how photoshopped the last DH promo looked with Eliza [her arms were apparently very alien]and I didn't even notice. So I obviously don't have a keen eye for this sort of thing.

vampmogs | September 09, 04:41 CET

What does the Claddagh defend you from?

hacksaway | September 09, 04:44 CET

Btw... that Wicked reference from #26 just came back to me... Vasuki=Elphaba. :)

wenxina | September 09, 04:44 CET

From this angle, the back line of Willow's neck should be sloping down at the point where her jaw line meets her ear. Because Willow is facing towards us. Also note that the neck should be smaller than the length of her face. I'm looking at pictures of Hannigan in reference to this cover and she has a delicate looking neck - this one appears hulking.

There's certainly some lovely aspects to this piece. But my eyes cannot look away from the neck that keeps going back too far past the lower cap of Willow's skull.

The delicate neck of Alyson Hannigan in the closest approximation of the pose she's in here, minus the full-on nudity.

As for the resisting theory, she doesn't look like she's resisting at all to me. Willow looks like she's extremely peaceful. No resistance because there's absolutely no tension in the face. She's even partially smiling, lips turning up a bit. When Hannigan/Willow is upset, her face gets all scrunched up. Not the case here, there's just peace.

I've gotta say, the praise for Chen's likenesses is wearing thin from my corner. I'm recalling Hannigan's response upon seeing the cover for #3 and how if that was Willow, than Willow had been seriously working out. Beyond the face, I'm seeing less and less effort in making the characters look like their selves in physical form. Chen is all about perfecting the body to the point that now all the bodies look the same with the big breasts and the hippy hips and the manly muscles. And in seeking this perfection, the result is a ripped Willow who has gotten breast implants and a linebacker's neck.

ETA: Sorry this is coming off negative. But I'm just not feeling the love for the lines today.

[ edited by Emmie on 2009-09-09 05:02 ]

Emmie | September 09, 05:01 CET

Ghostwatchers said:

And I've never heard of this Kit they are releasing again because of high demand

YOU CAN FIND ABOUT IT HERE: http://buffycomics.hellmouthcentral.com/html/trivia.htm#trivia

Buffy the Vampire Slayer Vol. 1 #8: The Final Cut (1999) was expanded in Buffy the Vampire Slayer Supernatural Defense Kit with new pages by the original creative team including: Buffy fighting more vampires, dining with Angel in a graveyard where he gives her a vial of holy water, discussing said date with Willow, and an expanded fight with Fair Quinn where she uses the holy water Angel gave her. Actual elements from the story were visible through die-cut windows of the custom-crafted photo cover slipcase: Buffy's trademark gold-colored cross, the "Claddagh" ring, and a glass vial of "holy" water with flakes of silver suspended in the fluid.

[ edited by hellboy on 2009-09-09 05:00 ]

hellboy | September 09, 05:02 CET

Thanks hellboy. I'm a little surprised that they made such a big deal over The Final Cut issue to give it a special book. It wasn't that great....and yet I'm sure I'll buy it anyway. I'm....weak.

Emmie, is Jo Chen supposed to be doing an exact take on the actors themselves, or can she take liberties in her work? I think Whedon didn't want the interior art to look like the actors 100% either. And I'm sure Jo Chen is doing her best regardless.

GhostsWatcher | September 09, 05:11 CET

GhostsWatcher, the majority of my critique can be chalked up to her interpretation of Willow. Sure. That's my personal taste. But the neck is simply a wrong proportion. Consider also that the angle of our gaze means we're looking down slightly at Willow. You should not be able to see that amount of neck at that angle.

Emmie | September 09, 05:15 CET

"I think Whedon didn't want the interior art to look like the actors 100% either."

Isn't this some kind of double standard? Jeanty gets crucified all the time about his likenesses, and Chen gets the "unstake-my-wrists-free" card, based on the same argument that should exonerate Jeanty?
Not denying that the artists are working hard, though. Just saying that this cover is a bit of a stretch in terms of human (and goddess) proportions, no pun intended.

wenxina | September 09, 05:18 CET

Emmie, that's fine. I guess I'm just not as hardcore about this issue. Luckily there's an alternate cover to choose over Jo Chen's artwork. Although I'm going with Chen, I find the other cover kind of plain in comparison.

Emmie, was it you who was having problems with the eyes on the Retreat TPB? And something about the Time of Your Life TPB? I forget....

[ edited by GhostsWatcher on 2009-09-09 05:20 ]

GhostsWatcher | September 09, 05:22 CET

You really don't need to buy this. The extended story is printed in the Omnibus collection. So all you';re really getting if u already own the Omnibus is the silly trinkets that come with the story

buffycomics | September 09, 05:29 CET

buffycomics, yeah maybe I won't. The way they describe it makes it sounds more interesting than I'm sure the actual product is.

I hope this Willow issue covers some real ground and wasn't just added to give them more time to delay the main arc some more because they are falling behind. I don't want another Tales of the Vampire on my hands, didn't enjoy that issue much.

GhostsWatcher | September 09, 05:35 CET

GhostsWatcher, my critique isn't condemnation. I just can't stop staring at the inhuman neck.

Though perhaps I'm just trying to level the playing field. Chen's covers are posted without any sort of concrit. Jeanty's are pretty much torn to pieces. Yet like Xi says above, Chen's art has its own problems. Proportion is a weakness in her art, imo. My linking to a picture of Alyson was merely to focus on the line where her neck meets her head. Because a visual comparison would be helpful. But oh well. If people can't see it, they can't see it.

Emmie | September 09, 05:37 CET

I'll be in my bunk.

aus-mitch | September 09, 06:20 CET

Emmie, can you see the comparison I mentioned to Botticelli's Birth of Venus? Because if that's what Chen was going for then it's possible that the neck was purposely made long.

From the wikipedia page: "Most obviously, Venus has an improbably long neck, and her left shoulder slopes at an anatomically unlikely angle."

Matt_Fabb | September 09, 06:56 CET

Matt_Fabb, it's not the length of her neck, though. It's the backwards width. It's extending too far back. It's linebacker's neck - absurdly wide for a woman generally speaking. But definitely too wide for Willow. It's the area between her ear and Vasuki's arm. That's where the lines are thrown off.

Emmie | September 09, 07:35 CET

I'm with Emmie on this - the proportions in Chen's cover are way off, and not just the neck, but also the ridiculously narrow waist. I really like most of Chen's work from the aesthetic point of view, but I'm annoyed at her habit of giving the female characters Barbie-doll proportions.

ruuger | September 09, 07:45 CET

I never would have noticed the neck, and I still don't really see the problem. I hadn't noticed the arm, but since it's been pointed out, I see it, though I don't mind it much, because she's very snake-y, and the elongated arm sorta works for me on that level.

What I do think is weird, and can't figure out why it hasn't been mentioned in this conversation, are Willow's fingers. Anyone have an explanation?

XanMan | September 09, 07:46 CET

Despite what some are saying I think this yet another beautiful piece of art, but I have to say isn't this just one more example of a cover where there's female flesh on display (there was the Faith one too). So, have we seen the male equivalent yet? No Xander in the 'altogether' then? *g*

Also so it seems Willow gets a back story to tell us what she did after Sunnydale went down, but Buffy does not?

[ edited by sueworld2003 on 2009-09-09 08:22 ]

sueworld2003 | September 09, 08:22 CET

What I do think is weird, and can't figure out why it hasn't been mentioned in this conversation, are Willow's fingers. Anyone have an explanation?

Yeah the fingers is the one thing I noticed. They almost remind me of serpents so I can't decide if that was intentional or not. I'm not sure if it's supposed to hint that Willow was becoming like Vasuki.

[ edited by vampmogs on 2009-09-09 08:23 ]

vampmogs | September 09, 08:23 CET

Emmie As to Wilow's proportions I take from looking at this one, that old snake lady is somehow influencing Wilow, and she in turn is starting to change? Look at her hand and how her fingers are tapering out and changing. I know you're not keen on Chen's work but I don't think she'd drop the ball that badly. I believe that Willows weird stance and proportions are due to this this weird 'bonding' thats going on.

That doesn't account for the extra boobage though of course. I'd put that down to the old comic standard of giving women in comics big boobs just to keep the blokes happy. *g*

sueworld2003 | September 09, 08:34 CET

Wow, I didn't notice any of that, except for Willow's exceptionally large rack.

Chen's covers to this point have been so spectacular, though, that she's earned herself the right to churn out five years worth of crap if that's what she wanted to do. Last night I was looking for where I could buy posters of her covers and couldn't find any, except for some discontinued autographed prints by Dark Horse. I'm still looking, if anyone has a link. That or a OMWF poster.

I'm surprised that the controversy is the allegedly subpar art, and not that Willow is gettin it on with a chick other than Kennedy. (I actually liked that part.)

dispatch | September 09, 08:35 CET

The neck doesn't strike me as too weird since given the quality of the image it's barely possible that some of the concerns (other than length) could be attributed to shading. It was the fingers that got to me too though.

I wondered if it was a thematic device that she's more like the snake woman than she'd be comfortable with (just like how the snake woman is more womany than she'd presumably be down with)?

Otherwise I generally dig the dynamic elements like the hair and fabric billowing and how everything seems so flowy. If we're whining about anatomy though, I do kinda wonder how the snake woman is supporting herself up.

orangewaxlion | September 09, 08:54 CET

Don't cobras sit themselves up with their tail? Actually now that I think about it, it doesn't really matter because Saga Vasuki has been shown levitating in pretty much every appearance.

[ edited by vampmogs on 2009-09-09 08:55 ]

vampmogs | September 09, 08:57 CET

I believe that Willows weird stance and proportions are due to this this weird 'bonding' thats going on.

Hmmm, that makes sense - much more than the Birth of Venus explanation. I guess we'll have to wait to read the comic itself to find out if that was what Chen was going for. It's still weird choice, artistically, though seeing how many people interpreted it as botched perspective.

And it still doesn't explain the boob-job and removed ribs ;)

[ edited by ruuger on 2009-09-09 08:58 ]

ruuger | September 09, 08:59 CET

Oh I agree. It also doesn't explain why we're still getting covers with naked women, and yet not one single bloke. *g*

[ edited by sueworld2003 on 2009-09-09 09:11 ]

sueworld2003 | September 09, 09:13 CET

Wow, Willow looks hot. I actually like that characters are starting to look more like how they are supposed to look instead of a photo-copy of the actor. Just like how Spike,Buffy and Angel all looked their perfect self in "Always darkest".

The fingers seem like a really important clue. Going by the summary, it might be a sign that this is Willow's future if she continues to heavily use magic as she does. I would find that very intresting, people asume that the next stage might be becoming a goddess for Willow. But we don't know how or what she would look like. The gaining of power and loss of humanity always comes with a price.

Vergil | September 09, 09:36 CET

I actually like that characters are starting to look more like how they are supposed to look instead of a photo-copy of the actor.

So...Willows meant to have big breasts then? :)

[ edited by sueworld2003 on 2009-09-09 09:40 ]

sueworld2003 | September 09, 09:42 CET

"So...Willows meant to have big breasts then? :)"

Did you miss my example of Always Darkest. Characters have always looked perfect on Jo's covers. Who cares what the breasts sizes are of the actors playing them. Should they contact them to ask? Willow is a woman, women have breasts, what size? Who cares. And the breasts drawn are hardly that huge.

As for your request of male nudity. Well season8 is seriously lacking in hot male leads. Xander is the only one around. I doubt people want to see Andrew or Giles half-naked.
Maybe you'll get your wish if Spike,Angel appear. Or if Twilight is revealed as a hot male.
Also almost all the lead females seem to get drawn the same size. Willow,Buffy,Faith and even Dawn in cover#25.

Vergil | September 09, 10:02 CET

Chen has a bit of a tendency to perfect characters up (aka slim them down and enlarge their breasts) that I don't like all that much (though it used to bug me more on runaways, where she did it to Gertrude).

She makes up for it in gorgeous lighting though and I think the weird angles are a reference to Botticelli and done on purpose.

So all in all, pretty cover and I'm looking forward to the seeing Willow's backstory explored. It's about time...

[ edited by Changeling on 2009-09-09 10:07 ]

| September 09, 10:05 CET

Has Chen said somewhere that the cover is a homage to Birth of Venus, or is that just conjecture? Because I honestly don't see more than the most superficial resemblance between the two (i.e. both portray a naked woman with wavy hair and a strategically placed hand).

ruuger | September 09, 10:24 CET

I doubt people want to see Andrew or Giles half-naked.

Forget Andrew, but I'd love to see Giles half naked. But then he's not a hot young super powered 'babe' and so probaly beneath Joss's radar at the moment I'm afraid. *g*

So all in all, pretty cover and I'm looking forward to the seeing Willow's backstory explored. It's about time...

Yeah, thats pretty much how I felt about Buffy too. :(

[ edited by sueworld2003 on 2009-09-09 10:44 ]

sueworld2003 | September 09, 10:40 CET

I too would have nothing against a sexy shirtless Giles on the cover. In fact, I would probably buy the issue just for that cover, no matter what the story was.

ruuger | September 09, 10:56 CET

Oh lord, same here. But only If Chen was drawing him. *g*

[ edited by sueworld2003 on 2009-09-09 11:05 ]

sueworld2003 | September 09, 11:06 CET

I agree with Emmie regarding the proportions. Though I am usually a big fan of Chen's work, this cover doesn't do it for me. There is something too awkward about Willow. Her boobs are going in weird directions, like that one cover with Faith (can't remember the number of the issue, but it was the one where she and Giles are in Germany.) And whether or not the proportions are right or not, that neck makes Willow look fugly, IMHO.

ShanshuBugaboo | September 09, 11:15 CET

Yrsh, I gotta say - my very first reaction was "Holy anatomy fail." Also, Willow's fingertips creep me the hell out.

Knuckleball | September 09, 12:36 CET

Willow, what big implants you got. This cover is all wrong; thereis no need for bring in the enhanced breasts, and I cannot fathom what they were thinking when Jo drew them like that. Man, for a comic that is supposedly feminist, this is just all wrong.

Dana5140 | September 09, 13:07 CET

The fingers are actually not very different from how Chen does fingers most of the time. In fact, for some reason, both Chen's and Moline's covers have Willow's hands kinda doing the same thing. What's ironic to me is that in an effort to cover Willow's girl parts, the awkward positioning of her hands and finger placement now kinda looks like Willow performing a "spell" on herself.

EDIT: Higher res pics can now be found here: http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=22857

[ edited by wenxina on 2009-09-09 14:36 ]

wenxina | September 09, 13:10 CET

Stunning.

alexreager | September 09, 15:14 CET

Pretty awful. It's astounding the shaky grasp so many comic artists seem to have on human anatomy.

JesterInACast | September 09, 15:20 CET

I like this one. I don't think its any more fantasical and idealized than Chen's usual style. Just way more nekkid.

Sunfire | September 09, 15:52 CET

At second glance, I think Jo Chen's cover focuses on the inner WIllow, the changes she's going through as a character. The snaky fingers (and maybe some other non-breast anatomical distortions?) provoke the question of whether the change is making her better (as she hopes) or more monstrous.

Pointy | September 09, 16:31 CET

Yeah, I agree with that explanation. But whatever it means I still think It's a lovely cover, despite the big boobs.

Can we now have Giles with his shirt off...please? *g*

[ edited by sueworld2003 on 2009-09-09 16:38 ]

sueworld2003 | September 09, 16:38 CET

I don't understand the controversy. They're just breasts. Who cares what size they are? Willow is no longer Alyson Hannigan, she is a comic book character, and her "size" will fluctuate depending on the artist. And if it sells a few dozen extra issues of the comic, good on them.

Riker | September 09, 18:45 CET

I don't understand the controversy. They're just breasts. Who cares what size they are?

Because it enforces the impossible body standard imposed on women by the media and is therefore sexist?

And selling your comic with a picture of a large-breasted half-naked woman is the literary equivalent of a booth babe in a car show - not hardly something that I'm looking for when I pick up a Joss Whedon comic.

ruuger | September 09, 20:04 CET

Interesting cover! Looks like we're going to get a peek into Willow's relationship with the "Mystical Snake Lady" Saga Vasuki.

I'm hoping this issue has something to do with Tara. Willow lost her soulmate, yet there's been very little in the story regarding her loss, the depths of despair such a loss could bring. Remember when Willow called Tara "My Always" and "My Everything." Those statements always impressed me as very, very deeply felt. Willow and Tara's relationship was intensely private, but it was also intensely personal.

I've read fanfic which explored Willow's depression, anger with the world, and her self-loathing after losing Tara, but Joss has kept the whole issue at arm's length. I understand why. He had a show to run, and it wasn't all about Willow. I'm just hoping he has the courage to broach the subject, to give us a glimpse into Willow's psyche.

quantumac | September 09, 20:14 CET

Can we now have Giles with his shirt off...please? *g*

I'm with you! And if other clothing of his happens to be missing I won't object!

Giles'chainsawchick | September 09, 20:34 CET

ruuger, your argument falls apart because we're talking about a drawing here, not a photograph. It cannot "enforce an impossible body standard" by virtue of its already not being a lifelike depiction of a person. Only photographs can come close to accomplishing that.

What kind of silly person would look at a drawing or painting and try to make themselves look like something that's merely a product of ink and paper?

Riker | September 09, 20:51 CET

What quantumac said. But you all knew I would say that. :-)

[ edited by Dana5140 on 2009-09-09 21:44 ]

Dana5140 | September 09, 21:44 CET

What kind of silly person would look at a drawing or painting and try to make themselves look like something that's merely a product of ink and paper?

Errr... a lot of people? Which is part of the problem?

deird | September 09, 21:52 CET

Riker I don't know where to start with your comment.

Art can indeed be sexist or pornographic or violent or reinforce negative stereotypes or impossible standards of physicality.

The art in this cover picture is a very odd depiction of Willow. I get the whole thing with the snake woman and the Botecelli references

I don't get why Willow, who to my mind was a beautiful character , suddenly needs to be depicted with pneumatic tits.

She has after all a perfectly good set of her own (as emphasised in the Vamp Willow outfit " Gosh! Look at those" moment)

Bottom line is that if I had been shown this image out of the context of this thread I'd have had no idea it was meant to be Willow, it looks more like something from one of those soft porn "Fantasy Art" books or the cover of a dodgy sword and sorcery book than something from the Whedonverse

debw | September 09, 21:54 CET

It cannot "enforce an impossible body standard" by virtue of its already not being a lifelike depiction of a person.

I think it's pretty well documented that images can play a huge part in enforcing negative stereotypes about women's bodies.

Simon | September 09, 22:01 CET

Okay, okay, so the cover won't satisfy everyone. It's not a pictorial representation of Alyson Hannigan. It's an illustration of Willow, an artist's interpretation. Let's not get hung up on it.

Personally, I'm more concerned about the story behind that cover. I want it to have some depth, some resonance, and I'm hoping Joss will deliver. So far he's played kinda lightly on the drama. So I say let's have more of the drama.

Glad to see I'm backed up by a fellow Taraphile, Dana5140. :-)

quantumac | September 09, 22:35 CET

I think it's an interesting device which seems to counterpoint the surrealism of the metaphor of the humanity of the artist's compassionate soul which contrives through the medium--

...

Mmm, boobies.

The One True b!X | September 09, 22:39 CET

I'm not sure why so many people here hate/are afraid of breasts, especially the women. I don't get it.

Edit: Word, quantumac.

[ edited by Riker on 2009-09-09 22:52 ]

Riker | September 09, 22:50 CET

I know you're not keen on Chen's work

Sue, I actually always buy Chen's covers when I get the comics and was so happy to have her back from her absence during Jon Foster's run during Wolves at the Gate. She's my favorite Season 8 cover artist (though some of Jeanty's are awesome too like the Seven Samurai homage for #15). So I do like it. That said, I don't find her work to be perfect and it fluctuates quite a bit. And there are parts of her work that bother me quite a bit, most notably her proportional depictions. For an artist lauded for her likenesses, I find that After the Fall's Alex Garner outshines her (I'm thinking of his cover of where Angel is turning to dust) because Chen tends to try to perfect the characters' appearance. She over-beautifies and removes some of what makes the characters truly beautiful - their quirky flaws.

All I'm saying is don't mistake my art critique to mean I don't appreciate the good that she is doing. I just find myself wanting to say more than "oh, it's gorgeous!" and I'd never be able to say "oh, it's perfect!" because I what I do occasionally find jarring.

ETA: "afraid of breasts"? Excuse me while I dissolve into a puddle of laughter. *looks down* Nope, still not scary.

[ edited by Emmie on 2009-09-09 22:49 ]

Emmie | September 09, 22:51 CET

I'm not sure why so many people here hate/are afraid of breasts, especially the women. I don't get it.

Just rogue breasts that go off in different directions as if they have a mind of their own.

ShanshuBugaboo | September 09, 23:13 CET

Like that giant one in the Woody Allen movie.

The One True b!X | September 09, 23:14 CET

LOL, totally.

ShanshuBugaboo | September 09, 23:28 CET

Clearly, I missed this movie. :)

wenxina | September 09, 23:57 CET

Respect the cruller. And tame the rogue breast!

Emmie | September 10, 00:11 CET

I don't have a problem with anything except the fingers, and that's only because they look a little like my arthritic stumps do every morning.
The waists always seem tiny, from just about any artist, but Willow's breast really don't look that big to me. I just assumed they're being push up a little by Saga's arm. And didn't
Aly give birth recently? I'm just saying.

deadbessie | September 10, 01:53 CET

I'm hoping this issue has something to do with Tara. Willow lost her soulmate, yet there's been very little in the story regarding her loss, the depths of despair such a loss could bring. Remember when Willow called Tara "My Always" and "My Everything." Those statements always impressed me as very, very deeply felt. Willow and Tara's relationship was intensely private, but it was also intensely personal.

I have to say, I don't understand why people still expect Willow's story to centre around Tara. It's been over for a while now, if anything it should revolve around Kennedy or more importantly just on Willow. She's had her grief but she's moving on, she has a new relationship and a new story line of her own. I don't get why it needs to always be brought back to Tara, that ship has sailed.

When did Willow stop being 'Willow' and instead became 'Willow/Tara?'

[ edited by vampmogs on 2009-09-10 03:58 ]

vampmogs | September 10, 03:58 CET

Vamp, pretty much. Tara was killed early 2002, and we are approaching 2010! I like Tara more than Kennedy, but it's over.

GhostsWatcher | September 10, 04:20 CET

Not afraid of breasts at all, actually, Riker. Thanks for your concern, but I've managed to live on quite friendly terms with mine for over a decade.

I do, though, have a problem with the concept of "sexy woman"="massive boobies". Why must breasts be "perfect", and how on earth did we end up with such an odd notion of what "perfect" means?

deird | September 10, 05:22 CET

What deird said - if anyone here is scared of breasts, it's artists who insist on replacing them with flesh-coloured balloons, and the readers who support them for doing it. Breasts come in all shapes and sizes, and the number of people even in this thread saying that there isn't anything odd about Willow's figure - beacuse those breasts are extremely large, for someone with that thin figure - just goes to show how images like this influence people's idea of what is normal female anatomy.

(I don't think people would be praising Chen's likenesses quite this much if she gave Andrew, Giles and Xander Arnold-esque muscles)

[ edited by ruuger on 2009-09-10 09:30 ]

[ edited by ruuger on 2009-09-10 11:17 ]

ruuger | September 10, 09:29 CET

(I don't people would be praising Chen's likenesses quite this much if she gave Andrew, Giles and Xander Arnold-esque muscles)

Actually in my experience it'd probably go unmentioned.

Nobody has complained about how Richards gave Daniel Craig some extra help filling his speedo. Nor how Angel and Spike were clearly beefed up for the threesome panel. Neither JM or DB are that muscular. Unfortunately the guys get 'enhanced' just like the girls sometimes.

vampmogs | September 10, 11:10 CET

Heh... even Xander got slimmed down and beefed up in his one shirtless scene.

wenxina | September 10, 13:22 CET

GhostsWatcher vampmogs; Remember the comics are set soem time back, and ebsides, Joss is capable of anything.

DaddyCatALSO | September 10, 13:27 CET

Yes, but did Xander's pecs defy gravity like Faith's breasts in the cover of issue 7? And I don't think the threesome panel was that much exaggerated.

Sure, the guys in S8 get 'prettied up' too, but their bodies still look fairly natural, which cannot be said of the women in many of Chen's covers. And also, they aren't all being beefed up. Why does Willow get Pamela Anderson's breasts but Andrew doesn't get Stallone's muscles? Because men can be beefy or scrawny, but women must always be sexy. I'm not saying it doesn't happen in other comics (because it does) but I am saying that it's still sexist and I can't ignore it just because the artist is talented.

ruuger | September 10, 13:39 CET

I'm not denying the double standard, but if it makes you feel any better, Willow's got 'roid-rage neck here. :)
Anyhow... there's no full-body image of Andrew on a Chen cover, so I don't get how you're saying that it's okay for the men to be of more varied body types. Jeanty typically draws everyone looking rather slender, but his boobs are more natural looking anyway. And the closest approximation to my body type that I've ever seen in comics is Yorick... and even he has at least 20 lbs on me. Just as "big" girls are rare in comics, really skinny guys are too. Not detracting from your point that women are often depicted as "sexy", just adding that men in comics are often also idealized versions.

EDIT: So if we're striving for equality here, I think it's a little one-sided to be saying that any "enhanced" male physique is fairly natural, when any female enhancements are sexist. I have friends who have natural big boobs and tiny waists. They're rare, but they are real people. Just as I have friends who look like the men on most comic covers.

[ edited by wenxina on 2009-09-10 14:44 ]

wenxina | September 10, 14:09 CET

Mmmm. Shirtless Giles. Or Xander.

You may have a point about Nekkid!Andrew. I'll pass on that one. *g*

Gill | September 10, 17:06 CET

Actually in my experience it'd probably go unmentioned.

Vampmogs, not true. Angel is already beefed up as a guy, but when he hulked out to Arnoldesque proportions in Aftermath you can bet your sweet bippy that there was a cry out against his likeness.

Emmie | September 10, 19:21 CET

I think it's a little one-sided to be saying that any "enhanced" male physique is fairly natural, when any female enhancements are sexist.

By natural, I meant that even when 'enhanced', the male characters have looked like human, which cannot be said some of the women in the covers. There have been multiple Chen covers with male characters in them. None of them have been beefed up beyong recognition. There have, however, been severals covers with women whose breasts have mysteriously become larger than their heads.

And I am perfectly aware that some women have tiny waists and large breasts, seeing as I'm one of them. So what? All it means that my body type gets representation in this comic, but the actual body types of the characters don't.

ruuger | September 10, 22:11 CET

"So what? All it means that my body type gets representation in this comic, but the actual body types of the characters don't."

The argument you made is that "enhanced" male characters still look fairly human, whereas the "enhanced" females don't, or at least the argument could be taken that way, since no caveats were used to qualify the statement. As for the "multiple covers with male characters" argument, NONE of them have featured an undressed male character, let alone a butt-nekkid one. That itself is a double-standard of sorts, but not the point I'm trying to make. The point is, we have no idea if the males on the covers are actually bulked up, or not. And if they were, that's fine? Because they're recognizably human looking still? But enhanced females are bad because they don't entirely resemble the character? The dichotomy here doesn't quite follow. Enhanced male= still "natural" looking. Enhanced female= don't look human, or even like the character. The double standard I'm pointing out here is that you're implying that the males don't really have to look like the characters, but god forbid the females don't. This I'm getting from your most recent post.

By no means am I defending Chen's cover. It's actually pretty "ACK!" to me, and not just because I HATE snakes. As I argued elsewhere, the entire composition of Willow's body just looks uncomfortable and forced, like an action figure being forced into a supposed natural pose. If you want to fixate on the breasts, that's your prerogative, but I'm not going to really rail on Chen about that now, since in the past, her tendency to go pneumo-tits has been the subject of jest, rather than criticism. She's consistent, I'll give her that, in her representation of the female characters with larger chests. What's inconsistent here is the really distorted looking figure (i.e. Willow's body in general), a sheer abandon for human (and human-esque) limb proportions (i.e. Vasuki's really elongated-looking arm, AND Willow's enhanced bosom, if you must :p), as well as disregard for perspective (i.e. Willow's neck).

[ edited by wenxina on 2009-09-10 22:59 ]

[ edited by wenxina on 2009-09-10 23:02 ]

wenxina | September 10, 22:54 CET

September 09 2009