Whedonesque : Comments on 21729 : Recap of last night's Joss event in New York.

Wait, Hush was "not all that"? What episode did I watch? 'Cos that was great!

Good recap and videos, though shame about the poor sound quality.

zz9 | September 22, 08:47 CET

I think Hush is great but it's never been a 'Top Ten' episode for me either *shrugs* Then again neither has Once More With Feeling or The Body... They're all bloody fantastic but I consider them 'events' and I'd never show them to someone starting out on Buffy because they don't really reflect what the show is usually like. The only one that I have in my top list is Restless.

vampmogs | September 22, 09:06 CET

Actually, I pretty much agree with him. I do like Hush but for me it's not on the same level as episodes like Restless or OMWF. That said, Joss is probably just being overly critical of his work like most genius artists are. I read a John Lennon interview the other day where he ripped into his Beatles songs, saying he wishes he could go back and fix them all up

Let Down | September 22, 09:44 CET

Is anyone a little bothered that these comments seem to be in the present tense?

Every episode is ridiculously hard because the central core has been ripped out just enough, that were constantly dancing around our own premise.

And:

"No side boob." Every week we get this note. "no side boob"

With the first comment I quoted it's hard to know what it means because the transcription is either missing an apostrophe or the word 'we' and I'm not sure which. It might have been 'we're constantly dancing around our own premise' or 'we were constantly dancing around our own premise'

[ edited by Let Down on 2009-09-22 09:51 ]

Let Down | September 22, 09:52 CET

Final comment I promise: the opening monologue in Dr. Horrible was too long and not all that funny. *ducks*

Let Down | September 22, 09:53 CET

I must respectfully disagree with the Jossir, but I've always thought - long before I got into this fandom, and before I really knew who Joss was - that "Hush" was one remarkable episode of television.

Maybe it's at least partly because its nightmare figures/themes coincide so beautifully with my own, but the first time I watched it, I found it chilling, and I don't find much that I watch chilling. It was also funny and moving and sweet and smart.

So dude, you're wrong as you can be. I think it is all that.

(I'd say more and watch all the clips, etc. but criminy jeez it's late here in L.A.)

Thanks for the report, you guys. Nifty and thorough.

I'd watch "Hush" again as I fall asleep, but then I wouldn't.

QuoterGal | September 22, 10:24 CET

I agree the opening in Dr. Horrible almost turned me off. It's funny but way too long. The rest of it more than made up for it, though.

I can see not liking Hush -- in some ways, it's just a really well-done standalone with a cool gimmick. It doesn't have the emotional depth of something like Becoming. But as a really well-done standalone, it's pretty untouchable. And it's one of the few Buffy eps that are genuinely scary.

This was a fascinating interview, I hope we get a more complete transcription of it.

bonzob | September 22, 10:27 CET

I'm assuming his point was that he was immensely proud of one episode at a given time but now in hindsight he's decided one that is sometimes overlooked is actually far better than he or anyone else ever gave credit, while the reputed gem may have been a bit less amazing than he remembered.

Lots of interesting little asides there though. The untold origin stories of Bad Horse and Moist(I'm still trying to imagine when Bad Horse could have fit into any existing Angel roles or episodes), the idea that NPH actually got to ad lib at all, finally some sort of answer to why there are so many absentee real father figures and positive proxy ones, and then just complete and utter confusion as to how many Whedon siblings there are.

orangewaxlion | September 22, 10:42 CET

Thank you for the report. It seems like everyone had a fun and interesting time. How nice to know that Joss still thinks about unmade episodes of Firefly and watches Restless late at night.

silvius | September 22, 11:02 CET

I always assumed one of the main reasons for a father figure was to provide conflict, and someone to argue with to let us know what they are thinking. In a novel you can just say what the main character is thinking, their doubts, goals, worries etc. On screen you need someone to talk to and argue with to show that.

zz9 | September 22, 11:32 CET

(I'm still trying to imagine when Bad Horse could have fit into any existing Angel roles or episodes)

Maybe Judgement or Pylea? Anyway the Bad Horse horse is a Whedonverse trifecta!

(ETA: I just realised you're talking about the character. That's an interesting question as well! I was thinking about the actual horse that played him.)

I didn't knew who Joss was while watching "Hush" either. But I did know it was one amazing piece of television. I ended up watching it 3 times in a period of two days (right after the first time I watched it I watched it a second with my brother and then the following day I watched it again with some friends who had watched Buffy a few times) it made such an impression that I just had to show it to people and I didn't mind the repeat viewings at all.

[ edited by the Groosalugg on 2009-09-22 12:23 ]

the Groosalugg | September 22, 12:21 CET

I'm with Joss - we all want our own Dude-arino. In fact I'm hoping that eventually they get around to exploring more of THOSE kinds of fantasies on "Dollhouse." All those unfulfilled needs and unresolved issues that send people to therapy would rake in billions. Imagine... having the perfect mentor, the perfect parent... Plus we'd get to see a wider range of Dolls.

Hush was good, but it wasn't very dense. Or you know, what bonzob said.

RE: Penny's still dead

I'm personally hoping for a "Bride of Horrible"... or a robot... or a clone(s)... or a holograph... or a twin named Peggy... or a...

I don't really care, as long as we get more Felicia Day. ^_^

BreathesStory | September 22, 13:38 CET

(ETA: I just realised you're talking about the character. That's an interesting question as well! I was thinking about the actual horse that played him.)

My sense is that Bad Horse was pitched as an Angel Season Five crime boss - he'd fit in with the gallery of grotesques in the Circle of Thorns, no question.

waxbanks | September 22, 14:52 CET

The whole thing about how reavers would lose against vamps because they can't strategise doesn't make much sense... surely they can strategise a bit if they're able to fly ships and keep themselves in the air (they must work together at least a little bit to achieve this).

mortimer | September 22, 15:11 CET

RE: Reavers vs Vamps

After thinking about it I'd have to go with the Reavers. They're organized, capable of cooperation, technologically competent, and they have that whole berserker thing going for them.

Although vampires seem to be imbued with Kung-fu upon being sired, I don't think that would be of much help. For the most part they seem to be either pack oriented followers with few real team oriented skills or narcisstic loner types. Not too many of them even indulge in a good massacre. (Kids these days.) Plus the sunlight issue.

Now Reavers vs. Uber-vamps? That one's tougher. We never really got to observe the Ubers very much. They appear though, to be much more evenly matched. It would probably come down to who wanted it more. Proper motivation is a powerful thing.

BreathesStory | September 22, 15:18 CET

Although vampires seem to be imbued with Kung-fu upon being sired,

Lol.

wiesengrund | September 22, 15:27 CET

My first instinct would be to say vamps would win the fight, but then I got to thinking: I can see why vamps would fight reavers, but why would reavers attack vamps? We've seen in Serenity that reavers have no interest in someone once they are dead, so vamps would have to at least start the fight. I think it comes down to whether reavers know what kills vamps.

Deanna_Lynne | September 22, 15:39 CET

hahaha... this is like the spacemen versus cavemen debate in Angel

mortimer | September 22, 15:52 CET

My first instinct would be to say vamps would win the fight, but then I got to thinking: I can see why vamps would fight reavers, but why would reavers attack vamps? We've seen in Serenity that reavers have no interest in someone once they are dead, so vamps would have to at least start the fight. I think it comes down to whether reavers know what kills vamps.

I don't think that reavers would straight away know that vamps are dead, since they'd see the vamps moving and assume they were alive. So I reckon they would still attack a vampire if they saw one (or a group of them)

[ edited by mortimer on 2009-09-22 15:58 ]

[ edited by mortimer on 2009-09-22 15:59 ]

mortimer | September 22, 15:59 CET

But could a vamp turn a Reaver?

zz9 | September 22, 16:06 CET

Well 'Hush' will always be on MY top ten (top five even) episodes: every word at the beginning of that episode tells numerous ways in which people do not communicate, and every action throughout the silence illustrates total honesty. It was an amazing episode with some of the scariest and some of the funniest moments in the entire series.

I'll agree that the opening of Dr. Horrible drags a bit, but in a way that is like the way people blog online (they are all very dull) and creates a really nice contrast to that first song. So I felt it worked, in it's own way.

And I think Reavers would win because they are less stylish, and more total mindless rage... but basically I wouldn't care who would win and I would be willing to let those two groups just fight it out to the last.

embers | September 22, 16:11 CET

The Reavers and the Vamps might fight over their shared food source - turf wars, hunting grounds, that sort of thing. Of course, that's got to be one of the signs that an apocalypse is coming.

But could a vamp turn a Reaver?

A vamp could certainly eat a reaver, but turning? I don't know why a vamp would want to turn a reaver. That would be one ugly vamp.But... since it's a whole big sucking thing, it could be accidental. You just know that the reaver's going to be fighting to the bitter end and you also know they have no problem with flesh eating. It wouldn't be hard to for them to accidentally digest the needed blood.

BreathesStory | September 22, 16:21 CET

Could a vampire become infected with the pax by eating a reaver? And if so, would there be a difference between the vamp who ate a reaver and the reaver sired by a vamp? (Or would they both by creatures of pure rage who knew kung-fu?)

erendis | September 22, 16:54 CET

Yeah, I think they'd spawn a whole new race of Reavamps.

hacksaway | September 22, 17:15 CET

Who would win between a reavamp and an ubervamp?

mortimer | September 22, 17:27 CET

@Let Down
You're right about the apostrophe. His words were in the present tense and that apostrophe changes things. I've fixed it.

Personally, I found that statement very telling. I wish I had better notes from that section. I also wish I had video from when he was talking about his relationship with his father. Interesting stuff.

Regarding Reavers vs. Vamps - I guess siring a Reaver would cause a double Reaver/Vamp super combo reaction a.k.a Reavamp in both parties. 1 siring would probably end up poisoning both races and killing all humans. Nothing but Reavamps.

[ edited by buffyfest on 2009-09-22 17:33 ]

buffyfest | September 22, 17:31 CET

The dude Questions: I love his reaction which is a mix of mea culpa and possibly underneath it, "are you kidding me?" I suppose you can get annoyed because the person is male if you want, but I think every "hero/heroine" character needs that "dude" (their word, not mine) character to help them out so they don't seem inhuman. Because we all need support from time to time. And you don't see that reaction to Cordelia who tried to keep Angel straight for three years.

I wouldn't read too much into the "Hush" comment. As it has been said, artists tend to be hypercritical of their own work. And while it was brilliantly funny and a good creative exercise, it wasn't the most dramatic thing he's ever produced. As many have said, it was an event... but that doesn't automatically make it one of the best episodes. That said, it is one of my favorite episodes.

azzers | September 22, 18:28 CET

Reavamps? *shudders* Sounds like a future where an incarnation of The Initiative has gone wild. Makes you hope that River's some kind of future slayer, doesn't it?

BreathesStory | September 22, 18:29 CET

I posted it in the other thread, but I recorded the interview with Joss. The crowd came out really loud, and you need to turn up the volume when Joss is speaking, but you can definitely hear it clearly enough. It's about 40 mb, so if anyone wants to post it anywhere let me know.

AnotherFireflyfan | September 22, 19:31 CET

Thank you, Buffyfest, for the awesome write-up and vid-up!

Pointy | September 22, 19:49 CET

Wait. Other thread?

AnotherFireflyfan, which one? If it's in a spoiler, I haven't been looking at them, so...

BreathesStory | September 22, 20:09 CET

This other thread. And by posted, I mean posted about the fact that I have the recording. I don't have a place to upload it.

AnotherFireflyfan | September 22, 21:00 CET

AnotherFireflyfan-

Oh. Bummer. I was excited there for a moment. Wish I had a place. Maybe some nice Whedonista can help out... :D

BreathesStory | September 22, 21:56 CET

Would Reavers still be mindless rage zombies if they were turned? I thought that in the Buffy/Angel verse when you're turned who you are dies (your soul is gone) and a demon who knows everything about your life takes over your body. It would be kind of puzzling to see a Reaver who was turned to a vampire and was suddenly mentally sound.

silent knight | September 23, 00:13 CET

AnotherFireflyfan - I just emailed you at the e-address in your profile.

QuoterGal | September 23, 00:19 CET

@Let Down
You're right about the apostrophe. His words were in the present tense and that apostrophe changes things. I've fixed it.

So not to freak out but .... shouldn't we be beginning to wonder what's going on? I don't want to start a panic here but there seem to be a few weird things happening. Joss describes in the present tense that the show is very hard to make because its essence has been ripped out. Similarly, he talks in the present tense about the notes he's getting. The future stuff has been cut out of the first episode and episodes have been shifted around. Obviously, those last ones might have been purely creative decisions by Joss and co - I hope so. But I do remember that this is how it all started first time around - weird things started happening, everyone said everything was fine and then it turned out there was a problem

I dunno, I was pretty certain everything was fine and dandy until that Joss comment. Now I'm 82% sure

Let Down | September 23, 01:31 CET

I suspect that the way to take it is the way io9 takes it:

Every episode [of the first season] is ridiculously hard, because the central core has been ripped out just enough, that we're constantly dancing around our own premise.

Note the editorial addition in the square brackets, which I suspect is an accurate context.

[ edited by The One True b!X on 2009-09-23 01:41 ]

The One True b!X | September 23, 01:41 CET

b!X, wouldn't it be much more natural to say 'every episode of the first season was ridiculously hard, because the central core had been ripped out just enough, that we were constantly dancing around our own premise'? That said, you're absolutely right that context is all important. If anyone has a video of this bit or a transcript including the surrounding conversation that would be awesome

Let Down | September 23, 02:02 CET

The context of the discussion at the time was obviously the birth of the show and season one. It's not an unusual speech pattern, when discussing a given point in time, to tense as if it were the present moment. Just, you know, take a deep breath and carry on.

[ edited by The One True b!X on 2009-09-23 02:03 ]

The One True b!X | September 23, 02:04 CET

silent knight - Drusilla was driven insane by Angelus before being turned. She was still crazy as a vampire. So, while your theory is intriguing, I'd expect that reaver-pires would be every bit as nuts as plain reavers, only now they thirst for blood and have even more physical strength. SCARY!

AnotherFireflyfan | September 23, 18:18 CET

Let Down - I was there. It doesn't sound like there is anything to worry about, creatively Joss is very excited for season 2. However, it is clear that Joss would love to push things further if network tv wasn't so restrictive. (Hey, Joss, make your next show on cable!) Season 1 suffered especially because the core concept had to be treated very delicately so not to upset them. (Ironically, I think it made it worse because it didn't show as many of the repercussions and problems.)

Joss said that for season 2 the network is happy with what he is doing, and while he still gets notes, all shows get notes. Also, moving the future stuff out of episode 1 was because ep 1 of season 2 is so packed with stuff there just wasn't time for it all. We will be returning to the future later in the season, but Joss isn't sure exactly when.

AnotherFireflyfan | September 23, 18:24 CET

September 22 2009