(SPOILER)
Discuss the third episode of Dollhouse season 2.
It's called 'Belle Chose' and it's written by Tim Minear and directed by David Solomon, the same people who brought you the Firefly episode 'Out Of Gas'. And the episode is now available to watch for free at FOX on Demand and Hulu and can be purchased at iTunes.
The next episode of Dollhouse will air in two weeks time.
maxsummers | October 10, 00:34 CET
the Groosalugg | October 10, 00:37 CET
Intrepid Reporter | October 10, 01:22 CET
Intrepid Reporter | October 10, 01:57 CET
discordia | October 10, 02:02 CET
azzers | October 10, 02:06 CET
Also, Ewwwww.
whedon is GOD | October 10, 02:07 CET
Intrepid Reporter | October 10, 02:08 CET
*hee*
ActualSize | October 10, 02:10 CET
discordia | October 10, 02:11 CET
Hahaha.
UnpluggedCrazy | October 10, 02:15 CET
Which is probably bad for Victor...
Anonymous1 | October 10, 02:15 CET
discordia | October 10, 02:18 CET
JerrodBalzer | October 10, 02:19 CET
JerrodBalzer, I thought the exact same thing! But just a little less creepy. Which isn't saying much, cause this guy is really, really... odd.
Guestage Drew | October 10, 02:26 CET
discordia | October 10, 02:27 CET
SteveP | October 10, 02:33 CET
Intrepid Reporter | October 10, 02:33 CET
whedon is GOD | October 10, 02:34 CET
"Serial Killer... Thank God."
azzers | October 10, 02:34 CET
ActualSize | October 10, 02:39 CET
[ edited by discordia on 2009-10-10 02:43 ]
discordia | October 10, 02:42 CET
whedon is GOD | October 10, 02:43 CET
ActualSize | October 10, 02:43 CET
JerrodBalzer | October 10, 02:43 CET
discordia | October 10, 02:44 CET
UnpluggedCrazy | October 10, 02:44 CET
ActualSize | October 10, 02:46 CET
alittledarkcorner | October 10, 02:47 CET
discordia | October 10, 02:48 CET
ActualSize | October 10, 02:48 CET
EvilFirePixie8 | October 10, 02:48 CET
And Victor/Kiki dancing is super hot!
Intrepid Reporter | October 10, 02:48 CET
discordia | October 10, 02:50 CET
Guestage Drew | October 10, 02:51 CET
WitchyGrrl | October 10, 02:53 CET
Scoffing at Gravity | October 10, 02:54 CET
discordia | October 10, 02:55 CET
gossi | October 10, 02:58 CET
ActualSize | October 10, 02:59 CET
EvilFirePixie8 | October 10, 03:00 CET
gossi | October 10, 03:00 CET
That was great!
whedon is GOD | October 10, 03:01 CET
UnpluggedCrazy | October 10, 03:01 CET
WitchyGrrl | October 10, 03:02 CET
I'm not sure I even know what that means...
But goodness gracious, that was creepy. Oh, Echo.
Emmie | October 10, 03:02 CET
That may have been the best episode they've done AND it was a stand alone. I am impressed.
azzers | October 10, 03:03 CET
This was huge fun.
embers | October 10, 03:04 CET
Intrepid Reporter | October 10, 03:04 CET
Emmie | October 10, 03:05 CET
So, did Paul kill the serial killer? One more step down for the poor guy.
Congrats to Tim and David S. Well done!
Lioness | October 10, 03:05 CET
The fundamental difference is that a vast majority of the story is not about major arcs. Bits are.
azzers | October 10, 03:08 CET
The episode had good build-up, but ultimately went nowhere. Topher achieved a remote wipe. Which is important. But apart from that...it just felt like it was much ado about nothing. And the final scene was so lame; pretty sure we had eleventy billion endings just like that in season one. I already know that Echo retains her personalities. And, yeah, this one was a serial killer. Still nothing new.
UnpluggedCrazy | October 10, 03:08 CET
embers | October 10, 03:09 CET
Taaroko | October 10, 03:11 CET
Buffyfantic | October 10, 03:15 CET
gossi | October 10, 03:15 CET
I concur.
ActualSize | October 10, 03:17 CET
UnpluggedCrazy | October 10, 03:17 CET
Some observations, and I suppose people who are checking this thread have watched, so won't be using invisio-text:
1) This remote wipe thing that Adelle forced Topher to use, seems like the base to a lot of what happens in Epitaph One. Which makes me wonder November's fate in that future, which we never saw.
2) Echo glitching at the end, midway through that imprint.
3) I wonder if Michael Hogan's character is much more important than he seemed during the episode, not just another throway character.
Numfar PTB | October 10, 03:17 CET
Previews for the next episode look great. Can we take it as a good sign that they are advertising the next two episodes? Or at least a somewhat comforting sign?
Maggie | October 10, 03:19 CET
pat32082 | October 10, 03:20 CET
That seems to be a VERY major development. The bio-link thing was kind of a failure. Back to the remote wipe drawing board.
azzers | October 10, 03:20 CET
[ edited by holeintheworld on 2009-10-10 03:21 ]
holeintheworld | October 10, 03:21 CET
Yeah, but to me the entire parallel felt forced, especially when the women in the cage were like, "We're not his toys! We're human beings!" It was like the writers had taken that croquet mallet and were trying to smash the point into my head.
UnpluggedCrazy | October 10, 03:22 CET
I note that even the characters in the show are noticing the absence of Dr. Saunders. Probably time to bring Acker back. :)
The previews promised a Sierra episode in two weeks and Summer Glau the week after that.
wouldestous | October 10, 03:23 CET
Secondly, I was glad to see more of Enver in this episode. I was telling my sister (whom I'd watched with) that I feel like it's the first time we've really seen Victor all season, despite him appearing briefly in the previous two episodes. Now it is totally Sierra's turn, which, the writers seem to agree with since we're getting just that in the next episode!
Thirdly, Tahmoh and Enver interacting with one another was not only nice to see (I feel like Tahmoh really only ever has scenes with Eliza, Olivia and Fran lately) but also extremely humorous.
Last but not least, awesome that Fox is promoting Summer Glau's appearances in three weeks. Though it doesn't exactly make anything concrete (they've pulled things off the air after promoting them before after all...), it makes me hopeful that the network intends to continue airing the show at least until then!
jiggyfly | October 10, 03:23 CET
gossi | October 10, 03:24 CET
I don't think the victims needed to be complete pushovers, but that one woman certainly went from disoriented to Season 7 Buffy in a hurry.
azzers | October 10, 03:31 CET
Oh, and had a "wouldn't it be cool if.." thought related to goosing the reticular activating system of the viewership: how 'bout if most episodes had a cryptic interaction in passing that either introduced a future client or a future "imprint" that one of our main dolls was being prepared for, with the result that you got a sorta built-in teaser that, say, Sierra, was going to be involved in a cool plot in a week or two, thus keeping the interest up of fans otherwise starting to wonder where she went? Trying to imagine some sort of combo of Hitchcock in the background of his episodes and the sort of clues that Fringe apparantly tries to work into background. Imagine, for example, that we saw, in a previous episode, something clever/funny/significant involving Topher reviewing Chaucer with Ivy, or Victor practicing croquet under the watchful eyes of a trainer or Michael Hogan reading about a mysterious hit and run or whatever? Then you get the payoff this week.
doubtful guest | October 10, 03:31 CET
Have to admit I'm a little annoyed though by how spoiled I was for this episode. I mean... "I knew what I knew" from some of Eliza's interviews, but as it turns out, "sorority serial killer" is one heck of a give away all by itself. Not openly revealing major episode plot twists in casual conversation with the media... maybe a little old fashioned, but I think it could make for a cool retro thing.
BringItOn5x5 | October 10, 03:57 CET
beckyboo | October 10, 03:58 CET
Then they went and took lame-o, worn-out plotlines (creepy serial killer, prof and hot girl) and switched everybody the frak up ways I did not see coming at all. And mega-bonus for Saul Tigh! I'm okay with little defects as in, how the prof afforded Echo, Eliza/Echo's "growing awareness" but whatever. I was genuinely surprised and pleased by the unfolding of events.
Then again, I had zero spoilers and have watched zero TV since last week's episode.
Leave it to Whedon, Minear, & Soloman to lead the gorgeous yet vulnerable blonde down the dark alley where her killer awaits and...she kicks his ass. Or something like that.
My point? I'm jaded as hell in general and they surprised me tonight. I also laughed out loud! More than once! Victor was hilarious. I went in tonight all jaded and grumbly (just me, not because of the show) and was pleasantly surprised for the first time in a couple weeks. :D All that intersplicing or whatever you call it with the funny and creepy and plot twists, well, I loved it.
I think I loved it more because I just didn't expect to. The promos for last week and this week made the eps seem horrible. They weren't at all. But if I weren't a Whedon fan, they wouldn't make me want to watch, that's for sure.
ETA: The promos for the next few eps, on the other hand, make me seriously crave the next few episodes. Coolness.
[ edited by WhoIsOmega? on 2009-10-10 04:07 ]
WhoIsOmega? | October 10, 04:04 CET
I didn't care for the horror tone, the Saw-like mentality of this story. I don't like that kind of story. Even if it had been the real Crispin Glover I don't think I would have wanted to have seen this episode.
will.bueche | October 10, 04:05 CET
will.bueche | October 10, 04:11 CET
[ edited by Emmie on 2009-10-10 04:16 ]
Emmie | October 10, 04:15 CET
what bugged me more, as an ex-grad student, was trying to imagine the English Lit teaching position that would've left me with a budget to afford something like the dollhouse. Guess he had a trust fund or something.
Oh, and not with you, will, on the criticism about ongoing use of the "assignment goes awry/active glitches" pattern. I see it as part of the basic DNA of the setup of this show, just like I expect that "Law and Order" to switch from cops to lawyers halfway thru or that cartoon coyotes will only fall into chasms once they realize they are standing on thin air. My favorite and least favorite shows have narrative conventions of their own making, and usually the best praise or criticism of them is what they do with the conventions, not the fact that they have them. On this show, the "one step forward two steps back" waltz of the dollhouse staff trying to control a technology so fraught with potential pracical and ethical hazards is half the fun for me! Especially for characters like Adele (because she apparantly believes that the dollhouse could be a force for good) or Topher (because he tends to have egregiously overdeveloped faith in his brain's ability to solve whatever puzzles the dollhouse tech and assignments present him with).
doubtful guest | October 10, 04:30 CET
My life, it is made wonderful. And full of giggles.
Enough said. ;)
CZGoldEdition | October 10, 04:36 CET
pat32082 | October 10, 04:38 CET
Eliza was great as well, I thought she did a great job having to play a male serial killer while dressed as a female sorority chick/valley girl. That can't be an easy thing to do.
Also loved the return of the "man reaction" phrase. And the implications of the remote wipe tech in regards to what we know about future events was great foreshadowing.
Definitely the best ep so far this season.
SteveJ2008 | October 10, 04:45 CET
- Victor/Kiki dancing and hitting on the guys at the club. HILARIOUS!
- Paul “You got a problem?” :D
- Paul finding Echo sexy in the shower. I love this one because it’s rather twisted when you consider the Dolls are pretty much children and are naked here. I’m not suggesting Paul is attracted to Echo because of her childlike qualities but one can’t ignore the ickiness of it. When the DH employees start finding the Actives physically attractive it can create all kinds of issues as seen in Man on the Street with Hearn.
- Topher doing a remote wipe. Ah how tragic! I kinda love that we know the future for these characters because watching Topher’s downfall (and everybody else’s ignorance to it) is both heartbreaking and exciting. It makes scenes like these so much more poignant.
- Boyd! Missed him last episode! Though I was hoping we’d get some special Boyd/Echo moment. Please writers don’t sideline that relationship! It was really the heart of the show for me last season.
- Creepy ending with Echo keeping the personality of a serial killer. Also Ballard pulling the plug? Can that guy’s armour get any less shiny?
My one complaint is that I wish they didn’t change the order around. Echo glitched this week and that was all very good but it seemed like she made far more progress last episode. This one should have went before Instinct IMO.
vampmogs | October 10, 04:55 CET
I have to take a little issue with this. There's a huge difference between finding someone physically attractive and using your position of authority to rape them repeatedly.
ActualSize | October 10, 05:07 CET
On another forum someone mentioned how Boyd would never look at them this way. I think that's a good point. I’m not trying to bash Ballard here but he’s not exactly meant to be pure so I think the comparison is valid. I'm not saying Paul was some creepy perv just that it's problematic.
[ edited by vampmogs on 2009-10-10 05:14 ]
vampmogs | October 10, 05:11 CET
1) two minutes into his serial killer part, i said "enver gjokaj needs an emmy." ok, well i said victor, but you get the point. the diversity he demonstrates as an actor is stunning.
2) yay for tahmoh. there was a discussion last week about the fact that paul basically had "pensive face" and "angry face." tahmoh really did some nice work this week. credit to him, tim, and david for getting that out of him.
3) how remarkable has the writing been in its allusions to "epitaph one?" the show has been able to stand apart from it, so that everything is followable w/o seeing it, but it is so much richer with that information and story.
finally, and i'll be brief and should probably wait to post in the inevitably poor ratings thread, but in between finishing watching "fringe," and then starting dollhouse, a 15 minute break at best, i watched some of the yankees/twins game on tbs. in that 15 minutes, i saw two commercials and three on-air promos for george lopez's new talk show. watching "fast forward," i saw three separate promotions for "V." how hard would it be for joe buck to do a couple of promos during next week's ALCS?
anyways, great episode all around. and yes, when michael hogan was talking to tahmoh, i did mutter "cylon lover" to myself. >.>
kefka | October 10, 05:12 CET
Fantastic episode. Definitely one of my favorites so far.
wonderflonium | October 10, 05:12 CET
Emmie, I just put my book down, came to my computer, to pretty much say the same thing. SOP at the Dollhouse each week would get real boring real quick. Missions gone wrong kinda are SOP at the Dollhouse. Keeping the thing intact at all costs seems to be the point.
Gilligan's Island would've remained deserted had they built a boat and gone home.
WhoIsOmega? | October 10, 05:16 CET
vampmogs | October 10, 05:19 CET
"- Creepy ending with Echo keeping the personality of a serial killer. Also Ballard pulling the plug?"
Ballard pulling the plug? Did that happen and I miss it somehow?
Can't Echo just keep the memory of the serial killer and not the personality?
Anonymous1 | October 10, 05:30 CET
Overall I really liked it. Had some great lines ("You know what that makes you: very weird!" is my fav, I think).
I think it'd work better as the 2nd episode though... but oh well.
I had seen Eliza on the Fox 5 show saying she plays a boy in this episode, but I actually forgot about it during the episode and I was surprised. For a second there I thought she'd be wipe too, but my mind didn't go "she's gonna be the serial killer now". Maybe I'm just not too smart. This Echo glitching thing is a bit annoying indeed, but I see how it's hard to avoid that.
Anyway, really liked the episode. While watching I had fun, I was creeped out, I thought about the deep stuff, I was surprised and I enjoyed the tips of what may come in the future. So score for Tim and Solomon! And special score for Enver and Tahmoh, cause I think they both owned this episode.
And that, gossi, is great news!
maxsummers | October 10, 05:34 CET
gossi | October 10, 05:36 CET
azzers | October 10, 05:37 CET
Wasn’t it implied that Ballard ended his life? Echo says “he’s dreaming” and Ballard says “not anymore.” Wasn’t that what Ballard and Adelle were hinting at when they said he doesn’t have to ever wake up?
Can't Echo just keep the memory of the serial killer and not the personality?
That’s basically what I meant but it’s been a bit mixy anyway. In Vows she was actually becoming the personalities again so it’s no totally out there to think she could slip into serial killer mode. In Instinct she went for daddy with the knife and then muttered something along the lines of “that’s not right, that’s not me” or something. I interpreted that as one of Echo’s deadly imprints slipping through, maybe assassin Echo? Alpha couldn’t always keep his multiple personalities under control either.
Edit: gossi beat me to it ;)
[ edited by vampmogs on 2009-10-10 05:39 ]
vampmogs | October 10, 05:38 CET
And goddammit, Enver Gjokaj, is there nothing that man can't do? The range on his skills are staggering, I'm seriously in awe. Assuming his career doesn't take off rocket ship (which it rightfully should) after Dollhouse wraps, I think we'll see him in many Whedon productions to come. Amazing amazing actor... Perhaps even the best one we've had yet?
Djungelurban | October 10, 05:39 CET
But Echo waking up and earnestly doing right?
It's an important plot development, it's the first stage on her way of being able to go in and out of personalities at will. She hasn't really been able to before, it's mostly happened due to outside interference. But being faced with this guy's twisted mind, it was the push to make her break out through sheer force of will for the very first time. It's a very important moment.
It was like the writers had taken that croquet mallet and were trying to smash the point into my head.
What you forget is that those were just ordinary people. And ordinary people in extreme circumstances say obvious things. They're not supposed to be profound.
[ edited by Djungelurban on 2009-10-10 05:55 ]
Djungelurban | October 10, 05:46 CET
1) Instead of letting the uncle talk to him so they could find out where the girls were, they play it hard-nosed and get nowhere. Basically leaving the girls for dead in favor of swinging their ePenis around. That's not anything the FBI would ever do, by the way: if they had such a simple (and legal) way of finding a bunch of kidnapped women, they'd do it, and fast.
2) Once again escaping from the Dollhouse is as easy as walking out the door. This time it was at least semi-plausible, I guess, since Victor was with someone. Last week it was a wiped active simply walking out onto the street.
3) "Remember that you have a name. We're human. Not his toys."
Yeah, that's not anything anyone would ever say. They'd be looking for the door, not stating the obvious way-over-the-top-melodramatically. I understand that some of the writers are feminists, maybe that's why they felt the need to inject such ridiculous dialogue (you know, because of all of the attacks on the show that say it's about prostitution-- maybe that's their way of saying "no, we think about this stuff, see!"). But it took me right out of it to the point where I went off and did something else until the next commercial break.
Until those things (mostly #1 and #3) took me completely out of it, it was the most entertaining episode yet. The banter was top notch and it was just overall the most entertaining episode yet.
dispatch | October 10, 05:48 CET
To me it's exactly the same as people who are into bondage hiring a domme or whatever the opposite of a domme is. Going out and kidnapping people because you have an urge to tie someone up, that would be the bad thing.
dispatch | October 10, 05:54 CET
Better yet, someone does that, and posts on a site, side by side with Angel dancing gif.
maxsummers | October 10, 05:56 CET
Did we watch the same show? Hee.
gossi | October 10, 05:58 CET
Sure, it's an important plot development about a character who I could not care less about. By design she has no personality. If she's waking up and discovering herself all she's got is that she's the do-rightiest of all the dudleyettes ever. And I'm not interested in human nature boiled down to which way the moral compass points. One hopes that there will be more to Echo/Caroline at some point. But we've gone a long time with just the Echo does good stuff tag on her.
Everything else was fantastic. Lots of reasons to be enthusiastic about the show, and since Joss is hardly known for dwelling on one-dimensional characters there's reason to hope that Echo will eventually get more interesting. This is, after all, the show that delivered us Whiskey.
[ edited by Maggie on 2009-10-10 06:07 ]
Maggie | October 10, 06:06 CET
Actually, if it had been a student it would perhaps be even less sleazy since that wouldn't have been as methodically and purposely thought out. I mean, he basically wanted to sleep with a student. Not any specific student, just a student. The thing that turned him on was screwing with a student, someone of whom he was superior than. On the other hand, if it had been a real student that came on to him in hope of getting her F turned into an A, then it could have been a much more personal and complex situation on so many levels and in so many ways that I for one couldn't make an immediate judgment call on that.
Djungelurban | October 10, 06:09 CET
ithilien | October 10, 06:13 CET
gossi wrote "AND Echo/Terry killed the client" Didn't Boyd call an ambulance for the guy?
And also on the professor: Was Echo supposed to be like the character in a book? A modern day equivalent of someone? The professor said she was just like some description. What was all the trying to make her understand the book about?
Anonymous1 | October 10, 06:15 CET
Everything else was fantastic. Lots of reasons to be enthusiastic about the show, and since Joss is hardly known for dwelling on one-dimensional characters there's reason to hope that Echo will eventually get more interesting. This is, after all, the show that delivered us Whiskey.
Wait you expect Echo to have a personality when her arc is all about getting a…. personality? Echo shouldn’t have a personality yet because she’s still a blank slate who’s only just starting to form an identity. Does this make her unrelatable? Sure. But it’s meant to. Thankfully we all have our personalities and our individualism. We’re not supposed to see it as a good thing that Echo doesn’t but part of Echo clawing back her humanity is what makes her so appealing, to me anyway.
Echo has the most fascinating arc of the entire show and that’s coming from someone who’s favourite character is NOT Echo but Adelle. She's made huge progress since the show first started. Back in s1 she could barley hold a conversation, now she's ordering for people to kill her to save themselves.
vampmogs | October 10, 06:16 CET
Correction, she HAD no personality. But as time goes by, and as more and more personalities get put into her, since none of them ever really fade completely she's getting a kaleidoscope of characters in her. At the same time the more chaotic and fractured her mind becomes, the more Caroline's personality pokes through. We know that Caroline was a fairly idealistic person and as I see it, the character at the end of this episode was Echo as steered by Caroline. Caroline hasn't quite broken through yet, but at that point she functioned as her subconscious. In fact, Echo has never been more interesting than right now, we're actually able to follow a person forming out of nothing which in real life, that can never happen. It's extremely interesting.
Djungelurban | October 10, 06:17 CET
I would have done much better to just search the term I think. Anyway, thanks for finding it.
azzers | October 10, 06:22 CET
Also, that's one rich professor. And the Dollhouse REALLY needs better security.
This is my favourite aired ep to date, as aside from being a mating of The Inside and Angel to produce gorgeously twisted children, it's also really quite smart in the parallels it is drawing. It's also the first episode, I think, to bulldoze into the sex of the thing. Without the, you know, sex.
gossi | October 10, 06:22 CET
Great news from gossi, as usual. I fear the day you start bringing doom to us. I won't know what to do with myself.
And otherwise, I really liked this episode. I think, for all the flack I saw last week take, I liked Instinct better. But this was still pretty fantastic, and Tim is amazing. It felt very Inside-y, though. Like what the Inside would've been like with the Dollhouse cast and technology. Which is a-okay with me, because the Inside is a wonderful little show.
Unrelated, but does anyone know how far along in production they'll be in 3 weeks? I know Enver said in that interview that he just read episode 8... so will they be filming... 9ish by that point?
EDIT: I mean, how much does Echo/Terry's stabbing the professor dude ROCK?
Oh yeah. I adored that moment. The absolute last thing I expected from that storyline--which, up until that point, had me going, "why the hell is this B-plot in this episode? What's the point??"--and it totally took me by surprise. I guess I should've seen the brain-switch coming, but I didn't at all.
[ edited by Jobo on 2009-10-10 06:27 ]
Jobo | October 10, 06:27 CET
One thing worries me though... a lot of people seem to not like Echo/Caroline, and that might be a problem for the show. I mean, I remember S1 discussions where people argued "Buffy was never people's favorite character either", but one thing is people not having the main character as their favorite, another is actually not liking the main character.
And considering Paul's is not very popular either, and he's kinda the 2nd main character... this may be a serious issue.
maxsummers | October 10, 06:29 CET
http://blogs.pioneerlocal.com/entertainment/2009/10/dollhouse_review_goodness_grac.html
azzers | October 10, 06:29 CET
You are so right. Had totally forgot about that show, there was definitely a The Inside vibe to this epi. I only watched the first few epis of that show until I knew it was being canceled and never looked back, but I know the entire season was aired elsewhere... Should probably be able to track the whole season down somewhere, I remember really liking it. No DVD yet right?
Djungelurban | October 10, 06:33 CET
Jobo | October 10, 06:34 CET
In terms of Echo this episode, I like the fact she (optionally, one presumes) emerged mid-engagement. I think that puts a whole new spin on this potentially. Oh, and she also has the personality of a serial killer stashed in in Matrix-o-bank.
[ edited by gossi on 2009-10-10 06:33 ]
gossi | October 10, 06:34 CET
First, I knew going into it so maybe I would have missed it I didn't already know.
But the big tip off for me was the interaction with Ballard and his reactions with Echo. It was like he was extremely new. It was obvious that he had just gotten the job and was still shocked by her running around naked and seemed to be struggling with the concept of her on romantic engagements.
Last episode, he was already talking about romantic engagements in a more "desensitized" manner. He seemed like a more seasoned handler.
There was also Boyd and Adele talking about Saunders which clarified a point that was a disagreement that we had when Vows first aired which was, "did Saunders just go out, or did she leave?"
[ edited by azzers on 2009-10-10 06:43 ]
azzers | October 10, 06:34 CET
Djungelurban | October 10, 06:39 CET
What azzers said, plus... I think that after the end of "Instinct", I think Paul wouldn't miss an opportunity to talk more directly to Echo (like when they were alone at the end of this episode). She was imprinted with a serial killer, I'd think that, him knowing she remembers it all, he'd at least ask how is she after that.
maxsummers | October 10, 06:41 CET
Enver should win every acting award going. Eliza was great. Loved the Topher/Adelle interactions.
Wondered if that could have changed Terry's personality. Made him not a serial killer, then put him back in his body and let him wake up, or have a chance of waking up, and have a normal life?
zz9 | October 10, 07:04 CET
Thanks for posting gossi, I think you have just made my night:) Off to squee now!
[ edited by crhobbs42 on 2009-10-10 07:09 ]
crhobbs42 | October 10, 07:09 CET
And honestly... that will be an interesting topic to get into as to acceptable uses of this technology. Things like severe depression and psychosis could effectively be wiped. And in some cases, I'm not so sure a person wouldn't want to alter their brain if it would allow them to live a more healthy life.
However, I'm not sure they can go there since Alpha/Echo is being used as a sort of "your soul remains" argument. I think those plotlines would interfere with their mythology.
[ edited by azzers on 2009-10-10 07:11 ]
azzers | October 10, 07:11 CET
Well, it would have been problematic since his entire empathy center was dead and no matter how they tweak and manipulate his personality, they can't revive dead tissue... I mean, since this is sci-fi they could have rerouted the brain to have another part of the it take care of empathy but it would all be too much work and screen time for no good reason really in my opinion. Besides, I was glad he was killed, that guy didn't deserve redemption.
Djungelurban | October 10, 07:12 CET
It maybe never reached the highs of the Topher/Claire scenes in Vows, but it was more consistent throughout. Definitely a big step up over Instinct.
I thought Eliza overdid Kiki a bit, but she was great as Terry, which was perhaps the harder role. Very creepy.
bonzob | October 10, 07:39 CET
What you forget is that those were just ordinary people. And ordinary people in extreme circumstances say obvious things. They're not supposed to be profound.
Yes, but those ordinary people are of course devices used by the writers, and in this case, as drama, it was very obvious and flat-footed.
UnpluggedCrazy | October 10, 08:04 CET
Enver and Tahmoh were aces! Can't wait for the Dichen centered show in 2 weeks and then SUMMER!!!
TamaraC | October 10, 08:15 CET
Excellent acting all around, great dialog and that signature effortless moving back and forth between the really dark and twisted, and the funny really dark and twisted - witty dialog and great eccentric timing that really worked.
I can't imagine anyone still questioning Tahmoh's acting after this one. From the heartbreaking sadness on his face as he watched Echo frolicking as the mindless Barbi/Twit she'd been imprinted with, to the perfect tone and timeing of "A serial killer? Thank God", to his obvious glee in interrogating Victor/serial killer guy - getting to use his real training for a change, and feel that he may be doing some concrete good. I loved Ballard in this, more than ever.
And then there's Fox. So we finally get a "previously on Dollhouse", then at the end, a promo that gives the impression that they actually care about cultivating an audience. The "Summer Glau joins the cast", making sure we know that the next ep isn't for two weeks, them promoting it as if they really mean it.
I know I should be grateful for this, but I couldn't help thinking, is this too little too late? And wondering, WTF is wrong with Fox, that they didn't show this degree of enthusiasm and commitment from the beginning? Is this network run by a bunch of totally schitzed-out refugees from the offices of Ari Gold?
OK, end of rant. Thank you Fox, for showing us you really care. ;)
Off to read the comments.
Shey | October 10, 09:28 CET
Simon | October 10, 09:29 CET
Lino | October 10, 09:32 CET
Great episode though, all round (usual disclaimers about plotholes notwithstanding), and it's wonderful to see Enver getting the chance to strut his stuff, as it were. I happened to be watching Instinct last week when a friend popped round, and she was impressed by it having never seen the show before (it is quite freakily intense and ED carries it off well, despite it not seeming to be a fan favourite ep) so if I show her this one she might well be hooked.
giles (yes, it is my real name) | October 10, 09:36 CET
ActualSize | October 10, 02:39 CET
My thought exactly.
Really loved the ending. From (paraphrasing) Adelle's "wouldn't that be marvelous" to Ballard (if Terry didn't wake up) to Ballard's taking the cue and obviously, if off-camera, pulling the plug, to Echo's "goodness gracious!"
It took a second for the chill to set in, from that one - so much good stuff to absorb.
Oh - and another flawless performance from Eliza.
I have no problem with season 2 not totally finding it's voice until the third ep. In fact I think, as I have all along, that the relative unremarkableness of the first two eps is pretty standard for most returning series. And that the outcry against 'less than perfection' is a combination of expectations set unrealistically high, for a show that has to conform to at least a minimum standard of network TV's umm .... minimum standards, and a case of contemporary mass ADD.
Yay team, for this gem.
Shey | October 10, 09:48 CET
Heartbreaking sadness? Really? The whole scene came off a lot more like Ballard trying not to have a man reaction than anything.
Rhodey | October 10, 10:17 CET
Rhodey | October 10, 10:17 CET
I seriously disagree. And that's after watching the ep a second time, just because I loved it so much.
Shey | October 10, 11:41 CET
Also, loved the use of Little Boots for Victor/Kiki to dance to.
flugufrelsarinn | October 10, 11:53 CET
gossi | October 10, 12:14 CET
Anyway, great episode. Enver was excellent as usual. His Kiki was brilliant and provided some of the first truly enjoyable scenes with Paul. Also - loved the opening scene with the doll arrangement. That was nicely done.
curlymynci | October 10, 12:58 CET
gossi | October 10, 13:01 CET
Also, I think Fox did a smart move switching 2 and 3. As I suspected, "Belle Chose" is just a bit more thrilling example of how the show can do stand-alones and it's a really perfect episode to hulu-link all over the place now in the coming two weeks. I think it can draw in a bigger crowd as "Instinct" (which I loved too, btw, just not as much as "Belle Chose") because "Instinct" was more in the vain of "Haunted", a cerebral meditation, whereas "Belle Chose" has the whole package, thrill, emotion, weirdness, hilarity and laying out (and twisting) nearly all the main characters and relationships. Also, visually? Solomon hit it out of the park, imo. Some of the best framing work to date on this show and also some of the best cuts too.
The only thing that bothered me, was that they actually amped up the importance of the biolink (as a device for remote-wipes). The biolink-satellite access should make GPS-strips unnecessary, right? I mean, if he can get such awesome data and a two-way conncetion it should be enough to locate someone, or am I totally wrong in thinking that? (I could live with the GPS-strip the way it was introduced in "Omega" because it was plausible that they had no biolink on Echo back then and the GPS-strip could be there just as a failsafe-device Alpha cleverly anticipated.)
wiesengrund | October 10, 13:28 CET
Enver did a brilliant interpretation of the killer's personality.
This had the potential to be my favourite episode.
[ edited by redeem147 on 2009-10-10 13:41 ]
redeem147 | October 10, 13:40 CET
Green Queen | October 10, 14:02 CET
That said, if we have to have a week's break without an episode, I'm glad "Belle Chose" is the lead-in. Wiesengrund is right -- it's definitely the one to push and build buzz for the next two. Sierra and Summer, yay!
ActualSize | October 10, 14:26 CET
gossi | October 10, 14:28 CET
wiesengrund | October 10, 14:35 CET
How can it be rape if she's willing? Her feelings might be artificial but they are still there. I mean, I'm on board with it being kinda sleazy, but sleazy isn't automatically bad.
Djungelurban | October 10, 14:58 CET
And this is the kind of storyline that I'd usually avoid if I'd known anything about it beforehand. I don't do horror or thriller at all, and even though I was totally creeped out by the opening scene, the entire episode made having those feelings totally worth it.
Also, seriously. Enver? There's no other way to say it: man, you rock.
escapist_dream | October 10, 14:59 CET
Uber-creepy opening scene. At first I thought they were dolls. Then when 'Aunt Sheila' moved I thought they were wering masks, then I realised their faces were paralysed.
The Paul/Victor scenes were great to watch. Enver was creepy as Terry and hilarious as Kiki. The Victor-Kiki dancing was probably my favourite scene.
Shep | October 10, 15:11 CET
Please, please, please reread what you just wrote. If her feelings are artificial, then they are by definition not hers.
ActualSize | October 10, 15:12 CET
Rape is sex without consent. Echo cannot consent. Caroline cannot consent. Kiki may not have been raped, but Caroline or Echo would have been.
This is a messy topic to get into and has been done very thoroughly elsewhere. I'd hate to hijack the episode thread with it.
curlymynci | October 10, 15:14 CET
One thing I did earlier - read the script to this episode (I've put it on Dollverse), in particular the Adelle and Topher bits. Now, Tim's a great writer and they're good scenes, but compared them to how those two perform them. Fran takes anything and makes it leap off the page. It's really impressive. Olivia has her role nailed down to a T.
[ edited by gossi on 2009-10-10 15:17 ]
gossi | October 10, 15:18 CET
Abducted.
Turned into a doll.
Used as a toy.
Only difference would be that the mind is active in the body of the serial killer's dolls and in the Dollhouse the mind is "frozen" on a hard drive.
And hopefully the killing part.
Anonymous1 | October 10, 15:39 CET
They were artificial in origin for sure, but she was feeling them none the less and then she acted upon these feeling. They were hers at that moment in time.
Rape is sex without consent. Echo cannot consent. Caroline cannot consent. Kiki may not have been raped, but Caroline or Echo would have been.
But that body is not Echo nor Caroline. In fact, technically you are not you're body either. It's just that since you're most likely the only occupant of that body (atleast aware occupant), it's basically an extension of you at this point. But the body itself has no wills or desires or wants. It's just a body, a chuck of flesh and bone and some organs. A person is the person within that body and that person at that time was Kiki. Caroline and Echo, sure technically they were "in" there, but they were not "active" or aware or was in control of that body. Kiki was, it was her's to do want she wanted with it. If that distinction isn't made, she'd never be able to do anything ever, ranging everywhere from having sex to what dental floss she should buy, since at this point there are enough personalities within her that someone will object to anything (most likely serial killer guy cause he seems to be able to have extreme reactions to pretty much anything). And honestly, the horror of rape is not about someone putting a penis inside of you, it's about helplessness, about powerlessness, about vulnerableness, it's about violation and fear and panic. Kiki felt none of these things and no one of her other personalities even knew about any of it or cared.
Djungelurban | October 10, 15:55 CET
I absolutely agree with Unplugged Crazy that that 'we're not his toys' line was spectacularly lame. It was almost eyeroll-inducing as the awful Obama line in Omega
And frankly that ending (with Echo retaining a bit of that personality) did nothing whatsoever for me. It was basically the same ending as The Target
And I also thought it was pretty silly that after it being established that they don't yet have the technology for remote wipes Topher is able to figure it out in about 10 minutes
I really hate to be complaining so much about this season but so far it's not really doing it for me. Anyway, even though the best bit of the episode was the cold open, it wasn't bad.
The thing I'm really excited about, though, is seeing more of Senator Perrin. And on that topic does anyone else think his wife was wiped when she answered the door?
Let Down | October 10, 16:03 CET
Let Down | October 10, 16:03 CET
Yeah, but the difference this time is that she did it on her own this time. That's a huge development. The situation was disturbing enough for her to break though the program and actually honestly, I don't know who broke through really. Can't be Echo really, she was too articulate to be Echo.
And on that topic does anyone else think his wife was wiped when she answered the door?
Nah, mostly because it seems like a meaningless move from the writers. I mean, having her answer the door and telling her something profound or whatever and just doing what she said happened. The end result would be the same. No, if they did anything it was "sleeper-agentifying" her, insert a another layer of personality beneath her own. But maybe that's what you meant...
[ edited by Djungelurban on 2009-10-10 16:11 ]
Djungelurban | October 10, 16:06 CET
Strangely, I'd also heard Eliza say she played a serial killer in this episode and watched the preview scene, but managed to completely forget about this when watching the episode. Testament to how enthralling it was. The ending is definitely way better if you catch the beep. I missed it, but it is pretty obvious on re-watching. Perhaps a visual clue like a flashing red warning light would have helped.
NotaViking | October 10, 16:33 CET
It was also good to see Boyd as Echo's handler again even if that didn't play out much on screen. It does seem a little unlikely that Adele would send her head of Security out on a fairly run of a mill engagement but he was the obvious choice, of course.
And I agree with the person upthread who felt that that the prof probably couldn't have gotten one of his actual students.
Lioness | October 10, 16:59 CET
Yes, and if you attended to the discussion they were having, he wanted to be the submissive part of the male/female power play -- he wanted a female "student" (not really, but pretend) to assert her feminine authority and manipulate him into giving her an A. He was a fan of the story of a woman discovering her power, and wanted to see it occur in real life. He was ultimately a literature fan. He was not sleazy. One could even argue that he may not have even been primarily interested in the sex, but rather, he may simply have wanted assurance, after all these years of teaching this book, that the book did have an effect on students - that even a spacey person like Echo's imprint could come to understand that they can be on top. So to speak. (I'm not saying the book is great literature, but, it was probably what feminism was back then -- one small step towards getting out from under subjugation by learning how to manipulate men).
Addendum: Google "Chaucer" +"feminism" +"Wife of Bath" for many student essays attempting to figure out whether the Wife of Bath was a feminist, a failed feminist, or an extremely failed feminist. No one seems to know for sure but there's tons of debate.
[ edited by will.bueche on 2009-10-10 18:34 ]
will.bueche | October 10, 18:27 CET
Oh yeah, he was sleazy.
ET: fix a hyphen
[ edited by jcs on 2009-10-10 19:15 ]
jcs | October 10, 19:16 CET
...wait for it...
...waaaaaaait...
...
"Five by five."
(c;
filops | October 10, 20:02 CET
PuppetDoug | October 10, 20:24 CET
Joel gave us a far more in depth look at his reasons, but I think both Joss and Patton have said roughly that you're not supposed to think he's somehow clean because he has good reasons.
The professor, not abusing his authority or actively seeking out this fantasy with a student could be considered a good thing, but it in no way absolves him. As multiple people have already said, we've already debated the dubious proposition of dealing with dolls to death. No, I didn't have fun with that sentence.
I think the point was, maybe we weren't supposed to just stand up and cheer when Echo stabbed him in the neck. And that would have been a hard sell if the professor was acting like a lecherous cartoon.
[ edited by azzers on 2009-10-10 20:29 ]
azzers | October 10, 20:32 CET
azzers | October 10, 20:37 CET
Although, I do think Djungelurban makes an interesting point: The horror of rape is separate from our morality programming and our own external need for justice, as non-victims. The victim's trauma comes from awareness during the act, their loss of power, and the unwillingness of them to perform the act, as well as the physically violent part. Those components are not present at the Dollhouse. At least during, all of the actives are willing, and will remember nothing else. But here is where it gets interesting, because in our current variation, this means that Echo is the only one who has the ability to be raped in the traditional sense, because some part of her that may not want it to happen is aware but may be unable to stop it. But yet another rub is that Echo seems to have developed the ability to resurface, like the "protector" personality of a Multiple Personality Disorder patient, when something she does not like is happening. Of course, with MPD patients the Protector is usually the one doing the killing, but you get my point. If Echo and the professor had had sex, we can safely say that at least Echo was not horrified by the thought of it or she would stop it.
PuppetDoug | October 10, 20:41 CET
PuppetDoug | October 10, 20:44 CET
I just checked, and no, it's not the same professor from MotS. Would have been cool though:)
crhobbs42 | October 10, 20:58 CET
[ edited by will.bueche on 2009-10-10 21:05 ]
will.bueche | October 10, 21:01 CET
And as far as your cometary goes, spot on.
crhobbs42 | October 10, 21:01 CET
Hunted | October 10, 21:04 CET
PuppetDoug | October 10, 21:13 CET
With "her strength" defined as her ability to sexually manipulate men. Still icky.
jcs | October 10, 21:15 CET
(edited to change Bella to Belle. The LA Times screwed me up.)
[ edited by PuppetDoug on 2009-10-10 21:20 ]
PuppetDoug | October 10, 21:21 CET
PuppetDoug | October 10, 21:26 CET
Simon | October 10, 21:51 CET
It was alot faster and alot cleaner than what the dolls normally go through in the Chair. Imagine Topher's gonna havea a time trying to figure out how what happened, happened.
mangydog | October 10, 22:28 CET
fortunateizzi | October 10, 23:04 CET
[ edited by WilliamTheB on 2009-10-10 23:21 ]
WilliamTheB | October 10, 23:11 CET
[ edited by fortunateizzi on 2009-10-10 23:30 ]
fortunateizzi | October 10, 23:30 CET
Let Down | October 10, 23:50 CET
It's fascinating, that he remains in control while fantasizing that he's being controlled, and dreaming that he's manipulated while he's done all the manipulating. And look at this, too -- he's fantasizing that she has power of a very, very specific kind. All the power he wants to see in her runs straight through her belle chose. It's not about the choices she makes (and now I'm marveling at how the title plays both ways), or the dreams she has, or the brilliance of her ideas; for him, female power begins and ends in sex. Echo, later on, chooses to die rather than hurt others, and encourages someone else to kill her -- that's an act of extraordinary power. But the professor only wants to see her power through an extremely male lens, and it's back around to that manipulation again.
For thousands of years that power was real, and women wielded it because they had nothing else to use; it is not a power men grant women, because heaven knows I'm in the power of my loves all the time, but it is certainly a male invention that that is the only power women have. Am I making sense?
The deliberate pairing of Victor-as-Terry talking and the professor pontificating tells us: those men who like to see powerful women because of the sex appeal alone are comparable -- maybe even just as bad -- as those men who seek to strip the life out of women entirely.
Not an accident at all that Kiki was all about (highly sexualized) dancing whereas Terry was paralyzing his victims. The men who allow women to dance are no different from those who would freeze them, because it's still about constraining motion...
(It also ties in nicely with what fortunateizzi points out: Adelle is kind of playing the professor's game, too. And she may be beginning to realize it.)
And yes, the woman saying "We're human" was a clunky line. But for crying out loud, you know how many people in this world still don't quite acknowledge that as true?
ManEnoughToAdmitIt | October 10, 23:52 CET
Anonymous1 | October 11, 00:17 CET
wiesengrund | October 11, 00:19 CET
Obvious Terry/Dollhouse parallels as well: the time spent on clothing in this ep matching over to the opening shot, etc.
The "we're humans" line really threw me out of the episode. But it's interesting how quickly one of the girls turns into a monster of sorts herself, thrashing Echo primarily out of revenge.
I like how well Adelle and Paul work together in this episode; they practically read each other's minds, and seem to be enjoying each other. The end of the ep has Adelle basically telling Paul to euthanize Terry, and Paul agrees to do it; even Topher, of course, has ethical objections to Terry being woken up. This is the line that they will not cross, even though it's clearly a Dollhouse parallel ("We're not his toys!" vs. dolls); the irony isn't lost on the writers but it is on the staff.
I'm trying to think if there's a significance to Victor-as-Kiki dancing, or if that was just fun. Maybe demonstrating explicitly the limits to the Wife-of-Bath-sexuality power, by pointing out that it's still the man in charge, because he can punch the girl out if he doesn't like what he sees?
WilliamTheB | October 11, 00:29 CET
fortunateizzi, I took her reaction to be a sort of wry amusement/interest in what he was saying because in many ways that could pertain to him. But I can see it your way too. That's interesting.
Anyway, I really love this episode. It might be my favorite yet, even though it was very uncomfortable to watch at times.
Oh, and Enver was amazing!
[ edited by ShanshuBugaboo on 2009-10-11 00:41 ]
ShanshuBugaboo | October 11, 00:40 CET
WilliamTheB, I think you've definitely got part of it; I think the rest of the Victor-as-Kiki Dance was to show us how explicitly sexual her dancing was. Echo-as-Kiki been all about dancing and movement, but we never really got to see what kind of movement it was. With Victor-as-Kiki it was explained.
Plus, y'know... funny. Really funny. And it let Enver show off. The man can move.
ManEnoughToAdmitIt | October 11, 00:44 CET
Fascinating to see Adelle and Paul's relationship evolve. They are very alike.
Sunfire | October 11, 01:35 CET
"I enjoy my treatments," Echo says at the beginning... interesting. Just blank-state Doll-talk, or something more? After all, it's all of how Echo learns about the world. At the end, on the flip side, she's walking through the house differently. It's subtle, but I think it's a wearier stride, and she only smiles when she passes people, not all the time.
Is anyone else distressed by Uncle Brad saying he and Terry have always been "close?"
And rather amusing, on second watching: "Terry Marion Karens? Is any part of that a boy's name?"
On the second viewing the parallels between Terry and the Prof are even more clear... "She made me. It's not my fault."
Topher's only objection to the remote wipe is no delivery system. Seems like he's studied how Alpha did it, and could replicate it; he just doesn't know how to do it without a phone.
I missed, the first time, the line from Chaucer about "the old, old dance."
Boyd's reaction to the revelation Victor-as-Terry is loose: "Ah." The Dollhouse running amok no longer surprises him.
Also of note -- the guy in the club punches Victor-as-Kiki, but Victor's the one still standing a second later. Being able to punch like Ali sure wasn't in Kiki's programming: muscle memory from Victor's past, perhaps?
It's also fascinating that Echo knows exactly how to press the woman's buttons -- using her own FBI training, perhaps?
ManEnoughToAdmitIt | October 11, 02:22 CET
Let Down | October 11, 02:48 CET
Which reminds me: at the very beginning, before the sweat bead was visible, I thought we were looking at store mannequins. Shopping and killing. Capitalism? Uncle Brad has money money money and so he and his can cover up kidnapping, assault, murder....
ManEnoughToAdmitIt and Sunfire: Good points about the Victor-Kiki material.
Terry believes he has no power over the women; they made him do everything even though they have no actual power. Kiki's sexuality gives her the power to change her grade, but a) she was programmed, and b) she was given an F so that he could take advantage of her. He has power over her, even in-world of the fantasy. But he gets to surrender his power to her. But his fantasy is to teach her to manipulate him after flunking her.
Why hire a doll and not a student? Maybe he really does believe that it would be worse to sleep with a student, because they're real people and can be hurt. Or maybe because real people aren't predictable, as Paul says to Terry.
I'm amazed by the comments about how the prof could have slept with a student, and so did the right thing by hiring a doll. He didn't hire a prostitute to pretend to be a student. He hired a doll, who thinks she's a student, so he gets all the sheer ickiness of actually manipulating a student into sleeping with him, and the issues of consent that we address in every. single. "romantic engagement" in the show.
WilliamTheB | October 11, 02:57 CET
WilliamTheB | October 11, 03:02 CET
His rightly-praised Angel ep set in the 50's has a few cutesy juxtapositions, but gets away with it all because of the beauty and nastiness of that ending. This hour was very good, but its pleasures were for the most part less writerly (on first viewing anyhow).
waxbanks | October 11, 04:06 CET
Yep. It's not like people are totally off-base when criticizing Dushku's performance on the show, though she's doing plenty of strong work (and always just going for it). I was really frustrated by the finale of 'Belle Chose'; Enver did sterling work as Terry but Eliza didn't run the ball into the end zone.
waxbanks | October 11, 04:08 CET
On the re-watch you can see the women swaying and trembling slightly. It's so subtle it doesn't register until you see the sweat... but it's freaking creepy the second pass through.
Terry's focus on the women's clothes is also neatly paralleled by the "art" of dressing Echo, in case no one's already mentioned that.
I'm finding the "we're human" line more essential every time I think about it, direct as it is.
ManEnoughToAdmitIt | October 11, 04:29 CET
His other big weakness seems to be plausibility issues -- many of his eps seem to have major holes or "this would never happen" moments.
That being said, his many, many strengths more than make up for these failings, including his sterling character work, his mostly wonderful dialogue, his incredible plotting, his lightning-fast pacing, and his rich thematic stuff.
bonzob | October 11, 04:30 CET
I've never found Minear a particularly funny writer (though Home had its hilarious moments). But I did laugh at the line 'I took medieval rather than advanced evil'. The problem for me was the next line didn't add anything and took the joke too far - 'I skipped intro to evil'. I think if Jane Espenson had seen the the script she would have put several thick red lines through that line
I also really didn't care for this Topher comment: 'a mindless robot walking around LA? He'll fit right in'. Sounds like the sort of unfunny joke my parents would make
Let Down | October 11, 04:41 CET
Yeah, that was the only joke that kinda bothered me, since it undercuts most of what was established during S1 (about how the world outside the Dollhouse is a complicated, terrifying place and how wipes are traumatic experiences that should not happen without throw pillows and perfectly crunchy lettuce). Now, I can fanwank it as "Well, Topher's attitude is clearly changing since 'Omega'." but it still stings a bit.
And I totally agreed that, while Eliza is shining brightly this season, she didn't quite reach Enver's (and Joe Sikora's) amazing portrayal of Terry. Which, to be fair, could possibly be related to the fact that she came in last portray him, which is always a ridiculously tough job because audiences like comfy. Just as I thought that Dichen had troubles nailing Taffy the way Eliza did, Eliza was a bit short of Enver this time, maybe because Enver defined the characters for the most part. (Although I do think that Joe Sikora's work was amazing and that it should not be forgotten in this discussion.)
ETA: Although, thinking about it, it may also just be related to the fact that Eliza had much less time to work with the character. Her "What?!" was amazing and if you give her 30 minutes of story like Enver got, she probably would would have delivered the same awesome.
[ edited by wiesengrund on 2009-10-11 11:00 ]
wiesengrund | October 11, 11:01 CET
Let Down | October 11, 11:30 CET
Enver is seriously amazing... and Eliza didn't allow herself to be overshadowed by him at all.
Also, The guy who played the serial killer was brilliant too... also loved Agent Ballard's scenes in this episode.
hell, everyone was great this week
mortimer | October 11, 12:52 CET
Passion | October 11, 15:22 CET
I think Minear's Dollhouse episodes are an odd mixture of the subtle and the blunt; things that seem obvious on a first viewing seem much more nuanced on a second.
It's probably true that this isn't new for Minear. One quick example: how about the way Lorne tells Angel that the powers wanted the lawyers to die, anyway, in "Epiphany"? Why write this, except to let Angel off the hook? It's such a strong episode otherwise, but it rankles.
I do agree that the "We're human" women-in-cage stuff was too much.
He's still probably the second-best writer of the 'verse.
WilliamTheB | October 11, 19:19 CET
Watching them back to back, I can see the criticism. But I can also see two completely different emotional ranges going on in the comparison.
azzers | October 11, 19:21 CET
No airbags in the car that crashed???
Despite quibbles, I found this episode to be one of the strongest of the series.
palehorse | October 11, 20:23 CET
That said, I like that it was complicated and icky. I don't think that all missions should be offputting, but I think that the more overtly distasteful sexual missions remind us of the fundamental premise of the dollhouse.
[ edited by Ildeth on 2009-10-11 20:57 ]
Ildeth | October 11, 20:54 CET
The message he was sending was that a woman's only power is sexual, and she'd better use it, if she wanted a better grade. And the creepiest aspect, for me, was that he obviously ordered a 'not the sharpest knife in the drawer' persona. Not content to offer her the sham of sexual power in return for a grade, he needed to further assert his dominance and 'superiority' by dragging out the process of 'educating' the dense girl as to her place in the scheme of things, like some twisted kind of foreplay.
This guy was IMO one of the sleaziest, most twisted clients to date.
Shey | October 12, 10:57 CET
wiesengrund | October 12, 11:39 CET
Along with UnpluggedCrazy, I'm surprised to see how popular this episode is. There was a lot of funny - Eliza was hilarious as Kiki (but didn't do much with Terry unfortunately) and I was delighted to see Enver get to play both Terry and Kiki (he was brilliant as always ... especially as Terry!) but I found myself eye-rolling at every ridiculous plot twist, and there was some really awful writing in there too. So far Vows is the only episode that's really engaged me this season. The last two have had some great moments but overall I've been disappointed.
I was thinking about the discussion about Buffy's "found family" dynamic and the lack of such a dynamic in Dollhouse (or, if you're a fan you wouldn't call it a lack, just a different dynamic) - and thinking back there were so many ridiculously bad Buffy episodes, plot-wise, but I didn't care because I just loved the characters so much and loved watching them interact that I really enjoyed watching and re-watching even those "bad" episodes. I'm interested in the Dollhouse characters but that's not enough when the story-lines feel so contrived and unsuspenseful (is that a word? ... spellcheck doesn't think so, but spellcheck and I are not on good terms these days so it might just be messing with me). I hope the next episode is better. I finished last season so excited about another season but I'm starting to feel a little down on it now.
catherine | October 12, 14:38 CET
mortimer | October 12, 16:02 CET
He's a lot like Matt, from the pilot and "Echoes." Instead of his turn on being introducing his vanilla date to bondage and motorcycles, it's introducing Chaucer to a student who doesn't even know what Middle English is.
It's all about a client realizing a power dynamic as fantasy and seems like a better treatment of the idea than Matt in the pilot. The opening scene in "Ghost" and the Matt/Alice scenes in "Echoes" were very similar. Those scenes seemed too subtle for what they were trying to do so early in the show though.
Sunfire | October 12, 18:02 CET
falina | October 13, 00:13 CET
Also, I thought Eliza did better work in the first two eps than this one, but, overall, she's improving enough that carping about her performance should continue to decline. Enver's Terry was good, but Kiki not so much, funny dancing notwithstanding. And why didn't Kiki notice s/he was a guy? Shouldn't bending forward while dancing to flaunt your non-existent boobs set off some alarm bells, if nothing else? No one is that much of a ditz. And I agree with the poster upthread that Kiki shouldn't have been able to deck that guy, if for no other reason than that it shouldn't occur to Kiki to try.
There was great support from the guest stars and bit actors again. The actors who played the professor, the Dollhouse outfitter and Terry were given good lines and ran with them. They continue the mostly overlooked run of fine minor performances that the show's been studded with from the first.
I'm pretty happy with the general direction of the show. Compared to the first three episodes of last season, we're off to a much better start, and if the next two or three turn out to be anywhere near as good as they're being touted to be...
shambleau | October 13, 04:37 CET
Because it's funnier that she/he doesn't figure it out... you're over thinking it... it was a moment of sillyness from an otherwise pretty heady show.
mortimer | October 13, 06:02 CET
It's interesting in that regard, that while Kiki's gender change was met with violence in the disco because (s)he just didn't care and played (=danced) along, Terry actually had a moment of self-reflection, noticed his change very explicitly and then decided to birthmark his image as "Whores". With hating women he's hating a part of himself (including, quite literally, Echo who is just about to raise her head inside of him a few minutes later). Kiki never got the mirror-moment and just went along with the situation.
wiesengrund | October 13, 08:28 CET
And shambleau, you're absolutely right that KiKi wouldn't think of hitting back. So how did the guy end up on the floor? I'm thinking it's a subtle nod to Victor's original personality rising -- or again, muscle memory from his soldier days.
ManEnoughToAdmitIt | October 13, 08:47 CET
It seemed like the gag was -- Victor (as Kiki) doesn't realize he's riling up these homophobes, one of them goes to punch him, we cut away and hear the sound of the punch, everyone assumes Victor just got hit, and then we cut back to reveal it was he who did the punching. The implication being that KiKi would hit back "ineffectually," but with Victor's ripped, manly strength, her punch actually did some damage. It's basically a standard Joss female empowerment moment. Any further explanation feels like fanwanking to me, but I suppose only Minear knows for sure.
bonzob | October 13, 09:50 CET
ManEnoughToAdmitIt | October 13, 20:37 CET
Perhaps the dollhouse alters an actives perceptons of the body that they're in, so that they don't know that they're in the wrong body... it would explain why they're able to put people's memories into another body (as with the case of the wife in 'Man on the Street') without them realizing that they're in a new body.
However, there are also examples of people noticing that they're in a different body.. like when Caroline was put into the little girl's body in Epitaph 1, or with Dewitt's friend in 'Haunted' noticing how hot she was.
... so I'm gonna stick with my first position, that they played it out that way because it was funnier.
mortimer | October 14, 03:27 CET
We can wank these into compliance however. Caroline noticed she was in the girl's body because Caroline/Echo is special. DeWitt's friend noticed being in Echo's body because she was specifically intending to be brought back to go to her funeral, so there was no reason to hide that fact from the imprint.
The One True b!X | October 14, 03:31 CET
In this episode, when she's in the showers and Paul shows up, she feels ashamed when she says "I'm wet". A doll would never feel shame, would never show it. At the ending... she's not having that blissful look of being at peace, she's kinda worried and she only smiles at people, not all the time.
If that's the case... then Eliza is doing a hell of a job.
Taly | October 14, 04:37 CET
But Terry realizing he is a woman had nothing to do with compliance.
ETA the quote I was referring to.
[ edited by wiesengrund on 2009-10-14 09:20 ]
wiesengrund | October 14, 09:20 CET
She's retaining parts of every persona with which she's been imprinted, while in her supposedly tabula rasa state - we've been explicitly told as much - and IMO, some essence of Caroline is informing the developing autonomous Echo consciousness.
I love the character and find her more fascinating as time goes on. And certainly, Eliza is doing an amazing job with this incredibly demanding role.
Shey | October 14, 12:59 CET
I don't see her as the earnest do-the-right-thing type that Maggie does, though. Not sure that she'd actually thought through the implications when she first told the women to kill Terry. She could have thought in some confused fashion that he could be excised without it killing her. After the one woman made it explicit, yeah, she was ready to end her life, but that, IMO, stems more from her thinking of herself as hollow, an empty vessel waiting to be re-filled with Caroline, than nobility. I think she'll start seeing herself to be as real as Caroline at some point, and self-preservation will kick in.
I read on another forum that Enver actually developed the characterization of Terry first, and the other two riffed on what he created. It doesn't take anything away from Enver's performance, but it does make Joe Sikora's even more impressive.
Was the whole episode a series of interlocking takes on the idea that holding to the illusion of control brings about destruction? I'm beginning to think so.
I'm a little surprised at the muted reaction to Paul killing Terry.
shambleau | October 14, 19:52 CET
CLIENT INFORMATION
D.O.B: 02-12-1951
OCCUPATION: Professor Of English Literature, Clairfield College
Best-Selling Author of Non-Fiction English History
EDUCATION: Doctorate, English Literature, University of Oxford
REQUESTS: Female Caucasian Student, Seduction Fantasy
As a best-selling author, it is plausible for him to afford an Active.
Simon | October 15, 06:54 CET
The One True b!X | October 15, 06:58 CET
Simon | October 15, 07:03 CET
The One True b!X | October 15, 07:04 CET
Simon | October 15, 07:06 CET
Saje | October 15, 07:06 CET
Also, I don't think most viewers have much of a problem with it, regardless of what they think of real-life eye-for-an-eye forms of punishments. Terry killed that one woman and tortured the others (plus possibly got away with other murders), not to mention he would almost for sure be a threat to society were he able to recover and wake up.
Kris | October 15, 07:54 CET
[ edited by The One True b!X on 2009-10-15 08:02 ]
The One True b!X | October 15, 08:04 CET
Why does he go looking for her in the shower?! And what was with that full body gaze slow-motion thing when she is finishing getting into her schoolgirl outfit?
ShanshuBugaboo | October 15, 09:03 CET
I don't think he was "perving" because he was attracted to an extremely good looking woman in a skimpy outfit. He'd only have been "perving" if he wasn't then discomfited by the context (which he clearly was). In this way (and others) Ballard represents the "enlightened" straight male viewer IMO.
Slight aside but "Lie to Me" had a nicely observed riff on the same idea **spoilers for the frat party episode from a couple of weeks back**. A young college athlete was accused of statuatory rape and Roth et al are called in to test his truthfulness. In one scene Lightman shows the kid photos of women in their underwear, states their ages and then asks him if he's attracted to them. It's fine until they get to a 15 year old at which point the kid becomes uncomfortable and starts to lie and say he doesn't fancy her. The point Lightman makes later is, she's very fanciable - they dodge the exploitation issue by having her actually be 22 - with a nice bottom etc. so of course the kid is going to be attracted to her. Whatever we might like to tell ourselves and whatever the PC attitude is meant to be, attraction doesn't understand '15', '16', '25' or "being exploited", it understands bums and boobs. Minds understand 15, 16 and being exploited though and when they kick in, if you're a good person, you act accordingly.
Saje | October 15, 10:24 CET
He found himself standing in front of a beautiful, completely naked woman that he's been somewhat obsessed with, in an innocent, guileless doll state, with zero shame over her own nudity. The look he had seemed like one of feeling awkward and uncomfortable while simultaneously being attracted in the way Saje described above.
Plus, if you read Minear's script, he makes clearer that originally Ballard was just going to ask the standard question, "do you want a treatment?" but instead changed his mind and asked "do you want a... towel?" (this is in the episode, but the intentions are clearer in the script). That seems to indicate that he's uncomfortable with the nudity and he wants to give her the opportunity to dry off/cover up. Which seems pretty un-pervy to me.
bonzob | October 15, 21:32 CET
What does he expect when he goes to look for her in the shower/changing area? It just seems a bit intrusive. Like if someone walked in on you in the bathroom just because they want to ask you a question. Seriously, it can wait a minute.
That wasn't even really the part that I found creepy though. Just weird, mostly. The part that was creepy to me was when he was watching her in the mirror as Kiki. The camera work sort of added to that, and I don't think it was unintentional.
Of course I am not condemning the guy just because he finds her attractive. But his obsession with her is really creepy to me anyway. That's probably why it icked me out.
ShanshuBugaboo | October 15, 22:03 CET
catherine | October 16, 02:40 CET
ShanshuBugaboo | October 16, 07:22 CET
As I say, his reaction seemed totally natural and understandable (but then I would say that since it was mine too ;), it'd only have been creepy if he hadn't realised afterwards that it was also wrong (or morally dubious at least).
[ edited by Saje on 2009-10-16 07:22 ]
Saje | October 16, 07:27 CET
Let Down | October 16, 09:47 CET
Saje | October 16, 10:07 CET
catherine | October 16, 14:04 CET
In a certain way it is the actor, because he's helping to make Ballard a twisty, interesting character instead of the good-looking, straight-shooting FBI guy he could easily be.
jcs | October 16, 16:25 CET
To me he's a critique of the "lone hero" character that's such a mainstay of Western fiction (including Joss') because what's a hero but a person that pursues their aims obsessively, refusing to accept the world as it is, constantly striving to make it right ? But it's always "right" in their eyes (normally we agree with them, that's why they're the hero) and Ballard as a character points that out, shows the potential flip-side of an all encompassing obsession to "fix the world". He's also (as are most good characters, especially in 'Dollhouse') about what happens when ideals and emotions/flesh collide. The best villains are IMO, always those whose aims are broadly the same as the hero's, it's only their means of achieving it that're at odds. Ballard could go either way at the moment.
(with 'Dollhouse', perversely, the Dudley Doright straight-arrow could end up being the murderer of the series' hero while the exploitative Madame and her tame genius may end up being her sworn protectors)
Saje | October 16, 17:08 CET
shambleau | October 17, 02:57 CET
ShanshuBugaboo | October 17, 07:32 CET
...no sign that Echo even exists anymore, actually.
Yep, said in one of the "Epitaph One" threads that my first thought on seeing "Echo" drop out of her imprint in the lift wasn't "Yay Caroline !" it was "Aww, Echo's dead". Still, the future's not set and there's many a slip ...
Saje | October 17, 09:40 CET
[ edited by ShanshuBugaboo on 2009-10-17 10:07 ]
ShanshuBugaboo | October 17, 10:07 CET
Oh. Interesting.
The One True b!X | October 17, 10:10 CET
I know, I feel more invested in Echo...so it will be strange when Caroline comes back (which she will).
Probably true, if they're going to kill one of them then it's more emotive to kill the one we know and like rather than the one we barely know. What I mean is though, just because we don't see her in Caroline's body doesn't mean Echo isn't somewhere else. Imagine Ballard's fearsome obsessive drive being turned towards saving them both. I wouldn't want to get in his way (or bet against him), that's fer sure.
(and at base, every flashback we see in "Epitaph One" is suspect, memories being the one thing we absolutely can't rely on in the dollhouse. So the future we see them depict isn't set)
Saje | October 17, 10:36 CET
Very true. That's a good point, and that would be a good answer to those who think that the show has somehow been "spoiled" by Epitaph.
I was thinking specifically of the scene where Caroline is talking to Claire. Claire says "I was surprised to see you and Paul together." And Caroline says "The jury's out on together. But he's got my back."
Maybe Paul actually falls in love with Echo, and Caroline is disgusted by it. I don't know. This is all totally wild speculation :P
ShanshuBugaboo | October 17, 12:20 CET
shambleau | October 17, 17:02 CET
And now it's time to read all your comments on this episode... (and the previous one)
the Groosalugg | October 18, 00:25 CET
fangless | October 18, 00:49 CET
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