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October 10 2009

Ten TV spin-offs that were better than the original. #4 features the argument that Angel was, at times, better than Buffy.

Woot I love it when Joss's best show gets some love. Although I don't agree that Buffy Season 5 wasn't compelling.

[ edited by Wyndam_ on 2009-10-10 05:51 ]
I love Buffy seasons five and six way, way too dearly to support the casual dismissal. But Angel--not better than Buffy, though often very close--does deserve more respect.
I couldn't disagree more with that list...

Torchwood better than Doctor Who?? Sorry Capt Jack, I love you, but no.

Private Practice better than Grey's Anatomy? No.

And Angel better than Buffy?
I love Angel, and apart from some horrible horrible things, I respect it very much. But even in its best moments, I still think Angel wasn't better than Buffy.

But I guess it's all a matter of opinion...
Nice idea for an article, but I disagree with a lot of it.

Star Trek TNG was so much better than DS9 that the comparison is really a bit silly. But not nearly as silly as the suggestion that Torchwood is better than Doctor Who. I don't see how that could really be suggested by anyone sober.

What about Mork & Mindy and Laverne & Shirley, both of which spun off from Happy Days?
Sorry, as much as I love Buffy, I did prefer Angel. I think it was by far the superior show. But I was 24 when I watched the two shows. And I'm a guy. I think I just related to Angel's characters more so than Buffy's characters. But I still think it was just a better show.
Meh. Ats was better that Buffy *sometimes* but s5 and s6 weren't dull. Buffy's resurrection plot, though a bit mishandled in the middle, was very compelling IMO. I rarely found Buffy dull but admittedly some Ats episodes bore me to tears. Ats s4 owned Btvs s7 but apart from that I think Btvs was either better or on par.

[ edited by vampmogs on 2009-10-10 06:25 ]
i actually think that series two and three of torchwood were better than series four of doctor who. that said, series one of doctor who, the end of s2, and s3 were better than torchwood.

as for buffy vs. angel, i agree w/ turbofist911... being a 20something male, i always preferred angel, just because i connected w/ wes and doyle much more, and wes always resonated w/ me. i loved the development of wes and cordelia in particular (when you view them from who they were on buffy to who they became - ignoring the whole demon pregnancy thing - the development was amazing), and i enjoyed the redemptive quality of angel to the outright heroism of buffy (though i really loved what joss and co. did w/ buffy in seasons 5-7 to muddy that up). the end of s5 of buffy made me choke up, but "i will remember you," "waiting in the wings" "hole in the world" and "not fade away" basically had me on the verge of tears, to say nothing of connor's birth or basically all of s3... and the end of buffy had me going "ok, good ending, well done," whereas angel basically made me go "wtf, i want more!"

both awesome though. and i agree w/ micoian... TNG blows DS9 out of the goddamn water.

[ edited by kefka on 2009-10-10 06:31 ]
In my opinion (which I shouldn't need to state) Angel was a much better and adult show than Buffy, and Torchwood is appointment TV whereas Dr. Who can sit on my DVR for a few days. Private Practice gets recorded every Thursday night and Grey's Anatomy is regulated to hulu when I get around to it. Daria was by far the superior show compared to Beavis and Butthead and of course Melrose Place was better than the original 90210.

Great list. Kudos.
Well, the people that made the list obviously like Reality tv, so can the list really be taken too seriously. Private Practice is not better then Grey's Anatomy. And liked all the Star Treks, so can't say about TNG vs DS9.

But I really liked Buffy and Angel, they are different, and I like them for different reasons, one is not really better then the other.
That's a testament to both series. I honestly don't like debating between the two because I think they are such totally different beasts although they borrow from the same mythology.

Buffy was always the steadier series for me, but Angel had far more moments, arcs, and characters that I loved. As kefka pointed out, Angel did fill a need for some viewers for more complex male characters. All obligatory love for Xander and Giles, but they did seem to just spontaneously morph into whatever the plot required. I think Spike was a very positive step in adding a complex character mid-swim for Buffy.

[ edited by azzers on 2009-10-10 06:58 ]
There's no way I could possibly imagine Torchwood being better than Doctor Who. Sarah Jane Adventures, on the other hand…


And I've got to say, as much as I enjoyed some parts of Angel, Buffy was always a compelling story - Angel only was occasionally.
Buffy will always be my first love. Interesting observations from a couple of guys upthread, that AtS gave the men more to relate to. Which is a bit of why Buffy is my favorite.
For a woman, it was pure joy to see the girl get to be the kick-ass hero and main character, and as a glorious bonus, get to be as flawed as male heroes.

Any a big yay for the Torchwood love!

Not that invested in any of the other examples. Well, OK - I do have a soft spot for Beavis and Butthead. But that may be the result of a long ago mind-altered marathon with two friends, during which I learned the true meaning of laughing until you cry and have stomach cramps. ;)
I think after season 5 of Buffy, Angel was the better show. Season 5 was amazing, and 6 and 7 kinda weren't, where I thought seasons 3 and 4 of Angel were outstanding.
I gotta chime in with the other 20-something males here with my love for Angel. (That came out wrong:)) As much as I could enjoy Buffy on one level, the themes and characters of Angel resonated with me on a far deeper level. Angel's journey was of huge importance to me. Even today that's why I get excited at new Angel comic news, and why I dropped Buffy 20 odd issues back. Not that Buffy isnt a great show/comic....but for me nothing can beat Angel.

Any list that recognises Angel's greatness is ok with me:) - there should be more!
Just a question. Was the author even sober when got to that conclusion?
Um. no. To the original question, not the one right above.
Star Trek TNG was so much better than DS9 that the comparison is really a bit silly.

Not in my universe. :)

Some of Angel can be better than some of Buffy. There may be moments of Torchwood that are better than certain moments of Doctor Who (Children of Earth comes to mind) but by and large, no.

I'd rather just watch all the stuff I love and love it. On DVD I'm watching The Man From UNCLE and Get Smart. They're both spy shows. Not going to pick one over the other. (I've just ordered season one of I Spy. I think this counts as a trend.)
I never really got into Angel. The first and fifth seasons I love, but there's some of season 4 that I kind of wish I could scrub from my brain. I love every season of Buffy.

I do like Torchwood better than Doctor Who, but that's mostly because a) it's more my style and b) it has IANTO.
I think if you've been watching Doctor Who since 1965 and are a long-time fan, and Doctor Who was your first fandom in which you got out and met other fans - you're not going to pick Torchwood. ;)
I think I disagree with azzers that Xander and Giles morphed into what the plot required a huge amount; both had a lot of different elements but for the most part seemed consistent to me. (Now if someone in-universe had brought up Xander's summoning Sweet and he'd owned up to it, I'd have been really happy.) But definitely Angel was great for complex male characters.
Angel was, in my opinion, a more adult, more nuanced show. I feel like Angel Season 5 is one of the best seasons of television ever.. that the final episode is the best send-off I've ever seen of any show.. and yeah..

DS9 kicks TNG in the shin. Sorry for those of you who gave up on Season 1 and 2.. DS9 gets OH so good.
This reminds me, I really need to get all DS9 episodes.
Almost no spin-off would be outright better than its predecessor because they usually need to create a very different identity to take off at all, in which case opinion will always be divided. I've noticed that spin-offs that try to recreate or improve on the original tend to be the ones that fail the hardest. I personally preferred Angel's tone and characters but there's definitely no 'better' show, even the so-called peaks and low-points of each show vary greatly between people (I liked Buffy's 4th season best, we seem to be a rare breed).
Don't get me wrong, Buffy will always be my favorite, but the Angel season 2 arc was one of the most compelling and interesting stories I have ever seen on television. I don't recall any one arc on Buffy that influenced me that way. I think that Buffy was enjoyable throughout, but Angel had quite a few arcs that were simply amazing.
I like both Buffy and AtS equally, although as the years have gone on I've often found myself preferring AtS more often then I used to.

As to Torchwood being better then Who, well If you're counting season 3 'Children of Earth, well yes, that wasn't just better then any 'New Who' that I've ever seen, but better then a lot of drama that was on this summer. But then COE was extremely adult in it's outlook, whilst Who was always aimed more towards families with young children.

[ edited by sueworld2003 on 2009-10-10 17:58 ]
I didn't really agree with any of that list.
Some of those I highly doubt- sorry, Torchwood, but you've never been able to break my heart like Who did at the end of last season. But I gotta say, at it's best, Buffy was great, but Angel was... I don't have words for how much I love the last moments of the show. One of my favorite scenes on television, until the opening scene of Firefly.

And, yeah, as much as I liked TNG, I gotta go with DS9. I also feel like some of TNG hasn't necessarily aged well..

[ edited by kishi on 2009-10-10 20:19 ]
I can't really equate the two shows either. They were both really different and they both succeeded in drawing forth all a whole range of emotions and reactions from me. They both had some amazing moments and some not-so-amazing moments (namely AtS-S4 and BtVS-parts of S4 & 6).

As a girl, I'm all for watching Buffy kick demon ass but a lot of the time I enjoy watching Angel more ('cept of course S4. The only things I probably like about that Season were Angelus and the continuation of Wesley's arc.). Ok, maybe I have a slight weakness for DB ;D , but I also prefer the darker, more adult tone of Angel and I can't help but be completely drawn in to Angel's struggle for redemption. I think I'm also one of the few who actually enjoyed S1 of Angel - I loved the noir, detective theme and I loved Doyle (and IWRY made me blub!)
I also love that Plymouth GTX too!

Seasons 2, 3 and 5 of Angel were phenomenal, as were 2, 3, and 7 of Buffy IMO.

So I love them both equally, really.
Wow, apparently I'm in the minority when I say Ats S4 was my favorite. I thought everyone would agree it was the best of the series lol. Apparently not.
Well, I'm male and I love Buffy way more than Angel :P
Maybe it's because I never got into Angel as I did with Buffy (besides some great arcs like Seasons 2 & 3, and the Illyria one.)

I always read that Angel was more mature and darker show than Buffy, but I can't agree with that. For me, even the S2's lawyers locked and killed (Angel's darkest hour) isn't near the whole Buffy S6.
And one can think Angel is darker because he is a vampire, but he always was going into the sunlight in every episode (in not so credible ways) while Buffy was more of a night creature (person and show) LOL.

And for the article, I found Dawn and Glory pretty original and great. 
I am with the male 20 somethings who prefer Angel. Buffy was amazing and opened my eyes to the verse but Angel is where I really fell in love. Angel and Wesley's arc development were unlike anything I had seen and have yet to see repeated. Serialized drama at its best with characters I love, also tons of bad ass moments for the heroes and i'm not afraid of admitting I like those, even if it makes me cliche.
Buffy & Angel were both awesome and of course some times one was better than the other but that said I loved Buffy a bit more.

I'm currently Neflixing DS9 and two seasons in I'm just not that impressed. I heard all these great things about it and I loved Babylon 5 and heard it was a comparable show. I keep hearing it will get better and I'm hoping it does but so far my favorite of that era of Star Trek is Voyager.

Dr. Who & Torchwood are a toss up for me, depends on which show I'm watching at the time I guess because I've totally enjoyed them both.

Xena was way better than Hercules!
WilliamTheB - Perhaps I wasn't extremely specific in what I was talking about. I don't mean that Xander and Giles weren't linear and logical. What I meant was, there was very little of an emotional journey that we were really privy to.

That's not a slam against the writers. I simply think they were making a decision on whose stories they were most interested in telling episode to episode. We would get things like "The Zeppo" where Xander goes from "I hate not being a part of things" to "I'm totally ok with being in the background" in one episode. And we also get "The Replacement" where Xander discovers personal confidence by meeting himself. Even Xander's walk-off wedding seemed entirely brief and had me thinking, "well...ok" rather than "that's unfortunate but how could it happen any other way". Things were so condensed that I guess it wasn't satisfying for me to follow either of them whereas it was satisfying to follow Buffy, Willow, and later Spike.

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